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Honour and secrecy for families of gay Muslims

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  1. Simon Murphy 19 Jan 2010, 5:41pm

    The reaction of Muslim / Asian families to news of a child’s homosexuality seems to be vicious, stupid, hateful and ignorant. .

    Some interesting points in this article which I will quote:

    “if it gets out that a family has a gay son they will lose everything. They will become social pariahs and outcasts from not only the community but from the extended family who want to disassociate themselves from the fallout of the situation. Any other children in the family will also be shunned, unable to get jobs in their community and unable to marry as other families will see their blood as tainted.”

    How utterly hateful and judgemental these communities seem to be. That is a truly revolting, contemptible response to the news of someone’s homosexuality. I don’t care whether their culture permits this. If it does then their culture is vile and evil and bigoted and has no place in the 21st Century.

    “But while it is easy to be horrified and disgusted by the treatment that these gay Asians and Arabs receive, outside observers must consider why we let our families get away with this. Why we let them in our heads, feeding our own insecurities. The answer is simply because they’re right. Should the knowledge of our sexuality come out in the greater community, our families’ lives would be destroyed.”

    Gay muslims would be far better off without these hateful bigots (also known as their ‘family’) in their lives.

    There is no benefit in denying who you are because someone who hates you (your mother or father or sibling) demands that you lie to yourself and everyone else.

    Allah does not exist, Mohammed is a fictional character. The Qu’ran is a fairytale. Islam’s refusal to accept homosexuality is evidence of how ignorant and backward the cult is.

  2. Simon Murphy 19 Jan 2010, 5:49pm

    If one of my siblings were to call me and tell me that they were a muslim I would obviously be upset and ashamed and embarrassed that he was stupid enough to believe that a blatant fairytale was somehow the ‘word’ of an almighty being.

    I would strive to be understanding and accepting of his lifestyle choice and I certainly wouldn’t reject him for his refusal to accept science over superstition. So long as he accepted that people are entitled to the same rights and responsibilities regardless of their religion and sexuality then I can accept his muslim lifestyle choice.

    Unlike Islam however, homosexuality is not a choice. which makes muslim families’ rejection of their children all the more disgusting.

  3. This topic does bring up the moral dilemma comparing individual good and group good. Unfortunately, they are sometimes at odds, as in the case of an individual Muslim who wants to experience the “good” of being an out and active gay person and his/her family who wants to maintain legitimate standing in their community.

    Rather than denounce the religion, as Simon does, we have an opportunity to work to demonstrate the benefit that a gay person can bring to their community. By clearly showing how gay people contribute to the world, we may be able to gradually decrease the communal stigma attached to having such “blood” in one’s family. Over time, we can change people’s minds, rather than simply denigrating their entire way of thinking.

  4. Islam is a savage,evil religion, and those who follow it are primitive people. The only option for a gay Muslim is to deny the stupidity of a belief in so-called non-existent Allah and his paedophile so-called prophet Mohammed. A gay Muslim should eschew his family and his facile beliefs and move away from the primitive community in which he lives. He owes it to himself to be true to his own nature and not to the primitive, evil beliefs of anyone else.

  5. yes blah blah blah 19 Jan 2010, 7:40pm

    It is absolute nonsense.

    Let’s take for example the Bangladesh community “men” like to be called the Bengali boys even though they are not boys but men they try to act like boys.

    they have drinks and some “smoke’s” talk like Jamaicans and
    look for white boys.

    All this is fine as long as they are married or will get married when the time comes. They are so easy to pickup,

    They gather around Muslim community centres or Muslim mosques.
    In my case it would be a place called Greenway.

    Some of them look very young in the face and are nice looking.

    The conversations before the pickup are usually quite stupid and untrue.

    “just bought some ash” ( meaning I’m a Jack the lad not a sissy)
    “just got out of prison” ( no he they didn’t he’s just making a point he is not a sissy ).

    It’s all very silly and childish.. They are incredibly easy to pickup as long as you know how to play the game.
    They are not supposed to be able to have sex outside of marriage with a woman so they find ” very good friends.”

    They usually walk around in 4s being special friends.

    Pakistani’s are usually a bit different more crude often don’t take care of their own hygiene.
    I personally find them unpleasant sexually not at all desirable.

    Bengalis like me I let them know it is safe to approach me
    they try to act like toytown gangster’s they like my attitude and my “status dog”.

    You can find yourself being seriously stalked.
    It is not worth the trouble even though some of the young ones have quite nice faces.

    Nobody is ever gay.

    There must be other people on here who know exactly what I’m saying you cannot all be so naive.

  6. An Cat Dubh 19 Jan 2010, 8:09pm

    Ugh, what’s most depressing is that few people realise that this is not Islám. Here: http://www.quranicpath.com
    Real Islám doesn’t allow homosexuality or transsexuality, but it says faith must never be forced on anyone.

  7. an cat dubh – you are using a fallacy and admitting Islam is evil and homophobic

  8. Lots of nice Muslim guys go to Charriots Shoreditch orthodox jews too their curls tighten in steam :)

  9. Chester, just have a little think about what you are saying? Islam is no more evil and homophobic than Christianity is. I personally don’t believe in religion full stop but I know enough people who do have various faiths (and haven’t any issues with homosexuality) to know that it takes ‘a person’ to be homophobic and evil, not a religion. Those who claim that ‘their religion’ gives them sanction to be prejudiced are just talking shit and would still be prejudiced if religion had never been invented. You know it’s true.

  10. “Rather than denounce the religion, as Simon does, we have an opportunity to work to demonstrate the benefit that a gay person can bring to their community”

    Jonathan, religion is a strangle hold on rationale, human rights and dignity…. not to mention humanity’s progress. “Fighting from within” is a load of nonsense, and doesn’t work, and hasn’t been working. Simon is right in what he says, if gay people made a more definitive and collective stand against religion, we’d all be a lot better off, rather then pandering to them to “prove our worth”. Personally, I don’t need the validation of a religious community, Jonathan, and nether should you.

  11. And here we see the flip side of the Asian “family values” and the “community spirit” politicians sometimes bang on about when grubbing for votes: being ostracised if you don’t conform.

    Still, let’s not forget that homosexuality in the UK was illegal – and women couldn’t get the pill unless they were married! – well into the 60s. Just because pockets of the West managed to develop as quickly as they did doesn’t mean that it won’t eventually happen with other ‘communities’, though being religious and leading a life that’s even nominally centred on church, temple or mosque certainly doesn’t help.

    I feel very sorry for gay Muslims from traditional or conventional backgrounds. It’s easy to say “cut your ties with your family” but it’s not always easy to do.

  12. @Simon Murphy @Neville – I agree with you both. Interetingly enough the Quran does not mention anything about homosexuality – @Jonathan as much as I would go along with that, we all need to keep in mind that human nature takes a longtime to change and people don’t like change because when they have reached their ‘comfort zone’(peace, etc etc) in life they a loath to upset the ‘balance’ of their lives. Hence the reason it is taking so long for us to get equal rights because no-one knows the future and people are generally frightened by something they do not know or understand. Thus if you look at history and the present day situation you will see that it is only the intelligent educated people of the world (and here I am generalising) who accept us, support us and are willing to standby us in the fight for change and our true and full rights. However, the changes are taking place some faster than others but we still have many fronts yet to conquor – Islam, and black Africa are just some of them…. fight goes on………

  13. Simon Murphy 20 Jan 2010, 11:31am

    No 3: Jonathon: You say:

    “Rather than denounce the religion, as Simon does, we have an opportunity to work to demonstrate the benefit that a gay person can bring to their community. ”

    But if the article is to be believed then islam point blank refuses to listen. Why waste your time trying to convince some medieval headcult of our worth.

    Need I remind you of a very telling sentence in the original article:

    “But while it is easy to be horrified and disgusted by the treatment that these gay Asians and Arabs receive, outside observers must consider why we let our families get away with this. Why we let them in our heads, feeding our own insecurities. The answer is simply because they’re right. Should the knowledge of our sexuality come out in the greater community, our families’ lives would be destroyed.”

    In other words Islam permits its believers to be ignorant, hateful, vicious and bigotted.

    Don’t waste your time trying to convince such morons of your worth. Reject them.

    Gay muslims need to realise that their religion is their enemy and that unless their families can reject the religion then it is better for a gay muslim in the long run to reject his/her birth family if they cannot have any compassion for his/her situation.

  14. Mihangel apYrs 20 Jan 2010, 11:40am

    part of the problem is the role religion (in this case, Islam) plays in providing a bond in these communities. Anoither part of the problem is that these communities are in fact miniatures of the parent culture in the “home” country. These cultures are antipathetic to western norms. It’s also part of the problem that these insular cultures need to exist within our culture (for whatever reason) and that in the UK we aren’t trying harder to integrate incomers rather than allowing ghettoes to spring up

  15. Simon Murphy 20 Jan 2010, 11:54am

    The immediate cessation of all government funding for faith schools would be a step in the right direction.

    I do not think it is approriate for muslim, christian and jewish etc schools be perverting children’s minds with their nonsensical beliefs. If a parent really wants their child to have a religious education then it is not the state’s job to accommodate them.

  16. Mihangel apYrs: I think the word you are looking for is “Ghetto”.
    It’s been around as long as man has.

  17. I hate to say it, but religion is not the problem. Being Muslim is also a culture as well. I come from a Orthodox Christian background and I see parallels between Muslim and other traditional community/religious structures, such as Orthodoxy.

    It is not the religion that is the hinderence, well it obviously plays a part, more appropriately it is the community and family structure that allows and fuels the hatred and hurt that occurs. I came out and I was immediately kicked out of my dance group, shunned from my church, some of my friends and family stopped talking to me. But just knowing I can never return back to my community (slowly this is changing) is what hurts the most. Religion needs some elightment I agree, but the communities that these different groups belong to need to be changed, which ultimately might not happen. The change needs to come from within the communities, not from the outside. Closing schools and just telling communities to stop is not going to work. You must work with the community leaders and educate them how this issue affects them. And the gay people in these communities must stand up and make themselves heard.

    No amount of governmental interference will change the view points of many generations, only the communities can do that themselves.

  18. Mihangel apYrs 20 Jan 2010, 2:34pm

    RobN: I found it and used it in my last sentence. xx

  19. John Bennett 22 Jan 2010, 4:56pm

    I’m not a Muslim, and I’m not gay. I am bisexual, so already I know how it feels to be marginalised from a group that ought to know better ;) Speaking as a West of Scotland Catholic, a group that has its own problems stemming from Abrahamic religion, I know that the only thing that had a normalising effect on same-sex relationships in this community was the realisation that everybody knew someone who was doing it. It began to get as commonplace as marrying a Protestant. And all it needed was for a few brave people with a high profile to be open about it.

    That is what the Muslim community have to do. One of them has got to stand up and be counted. But they may have to put on a helmet and body armour to do it. I do not doubt there will be deaths. But then, when you think of the stupid causes a lot of young Muslim guys waste their lives on, there should be no shortage of willing martyrs.

  20. I am an immigrant from America. I am often reminded by individuals, media and the government that I must leave my Americanisms behind and integrate into a British way of life. I don’t see anything wrong about that. I have adopted a foreign country as my home and I am obliged to accept its ways. I see a double standard when it comes to Muslims. This country bends over backwards to rationalize and accept the very un-British attitudes and behavior of Muslims. This article points this out clearly to me. Many of the most right-wing homophobic religions of America aren’t even allowed to practice in this country. Muslims forcing their homophobia on their children should be no more tolerated than Mormons forcing their gay children into conversion therapy.

  21. As someone who is gay and muslim who has been in a relationship with a non muslim english guy for the last 8 years. Here is my advice to any young gay muslim… BE CAREFUL what you decide..there are no easy answers.. non muslims will always tell you their slightly arrogant diatribe and imperialist view on culture and religion… without any malice they demonstrate a complete lack of understanding of the cultural problem that you face, because they think they know best because they believe your culture is inferior.

    For those gay muslims that decide to buy into the gay propaganda of inclusiveness and liberal tolerance… be prepared for some disappointment.. don’t be too upset when you see your race in the same drop down box in between leather and trainer fetish.. be prepared to know that a lot of people will never have the opportunity to get to know you because when they see you in a club or bar they think they already know you because of the inherent negative social stereotyping both overt and covert amongst the gay scene and wider community. Always expect other gay people to pester you about the hypocrisy of your culture and your views on terrorism and honour killings but never bring up the hypocrisy in what you see around you such as the 100,000 dead in the iraq war, imperialism, gay racism etc, because bringing those issues up will make people feel uncomfortable and is rude.

    Don’t believe that gay people are tolerant and liberal just because they are gay.. but you already know that because people of colour are sometimes more racist than whites..As long as you conform to the drop down gaydar box version of your culture then you may find some solace but be prepared to lose your individuality and never completely feel at home.

    After you have lost your family, your cultural individuality, the security of your religion. be prepared for the “ acceptance” of the “gay community” a life of hanging out in the “asian” “arab” LGBT scene.. if your catered for .. a once a month crappy club filled of people of your like … where your whole race is reduced to some sort of niche fetish. Be prepared to lose your self esteem.. Dont be offended at the “no asian” “no chinese” warnings on some gaydar profiles .. its just a preference… where once you could never live up to the heterosexual demanded of you by your family, prepare for the rude realisation that you can never live up to the caucasion ideal on the front cover of gaytimes/qx/boyz/attitude/ etc… every issue. … so in summary both “cultures” gay and muslim have positives and negatives and it depends where you want to belong the most and what you want to lose the most. Do you value your sexual identity over your cultural identity and individualism?

    My advice is have the best of both worlds.. get educated.. move out.. far away from your family.. dont ask.. dont tell.. visit them as much as is possible.. enjoy your gay life… but once you realise its inherent hypocrisy towards minorities and the subconscious racial stereotyping… you will feel a sense of not being represented …when that happens make your own way.. but remember propaganda is what it is .. it comes in all forms… muslim, political and gay.. it serves the majority interests no matter how it is dressed up as…by its very nature it does not serve minority interests.. so hence you will never find true acceptance in either gay or muslim communities . But you WILL find your own acceptance in the little world that you create for yourself.. with your friends and a genuine intelligent lover and maybe a younger understanding family member. And remember this .. eventually all that crap that you have had to endure will make you better, stonger and more beautiful (inside and out)& fabulous than both the worlds you once wanted to belong to! Good luck!

  22. Jean-Paul Bentham 4 Feb 2010, 3:05am

    Leary:

    Wow! What an education for a senior gay Canadian like me. Thank you.

  23. We need to band together and provide a community for gay Muslims rejected from their own. This will give them a platform from which to out themselves to their whole community. If there is one gay person in each family and at least 10 in each community, the taboo would have to die

  24. We have to stop the spread of islam in the UK. If christianity in europe was as strong now as it was 100 years ago, you can be sure we would not have any gay rights. There are now more mosque-going muslims than church-going christians. There is not 1 muslim in 1000 who is tolerant of homosexuality (Gallup poll last year). If you think the UK muslim population is only 3% now you’re mistaken – 11% of all raw meat was halal by 2005, by last year 12% of all prisoners were muslim. York’s muslim population has gone from 2.5% to 10% in less than a decade. Young muslims are at least twice as radical as their parents.

    There is nothing in the Koran that is specifically anti-gay (apart from all the ranting about the people of Lot). But that makes no difference. The Muslim Council of Britain refuses to do anything about homophobia in islam. They are happy with their homophobia.

    EDL is the only organization trying to prevent the spread of islamic organization in the UK. The government funding for PVE and “community cohesion” has backfired. Come and join EDL gay division. Don’t just bitch about it – do something!

    Here’s the true face of EDL: http://www.libertiesalliance.org/2010/04/04/photographs-from-the-english-defence-league-demonstration-in-dudley-on-3-april-2010/

    The government is ignoring the fact there are queens, ex-muslims, sikhs and black people on these demos. The gay contingent has to be bigger and more dramatic. We have to unite against the spread of islamic extremism before it is too late.

  25. STOP RACIST EDL 23 Apr 2010, 9:04pm

    Stop racists like EDL and BNP

  26. Seriously. Non-Muslims can keep their concerns to themselves. Pedophilia, rape,homosexual acts are all abhorrent. Gays think pedophilia is disgusting yet their own sex acts aren’t?! The whining and crying for rights is nonsense demanding this indecency be acceptable. Islam will never accept ANY deviant behavior that clearly destroys the morality and cleanliness within the family and community. Gay people should remain silent.

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