Does The Daily Mail have a stake in this Ugandan tabloid, I wonder?
Jan Moir would love working there.
@simon I agree. But I repeat – all Ugandian gays must leave that country or die. You have the chance now – take it – do not delay. Once a black man in Africa makes up his mind about something nothing will change it and mob instinct takes over. Something similar to Islam.
Yeap. Nothing easier to sell than conspiracy theories. Especially among ignorant people, something that obviously Uganda doesn’t lack of.
Clearly there are gay Ugandans and evidently they wouldn’t do anything to favor their persecution, but come on with the “big bogeyman” so the people get paranoiac and therefore the need to do whatever they feel fit to “confine or kill the menace”.
Nazi Germany anyone? I don’t get how this people don’t get internationally prosecuted. Hopefully the day will come.
“LGBT community are reported to be paid a monthly salary in the region of US$780, many times more than the average Ugandan”.
Is that all!
newspaper? no just very cheap toilet paper.
Person: Baluka Margaret
Address: 2nd Floor, Social Security House
Updated: 2009-12-30 20:57:46
Cheap and cheerful.
I wonder what they’re going to call their Kristallnacht?
Once a black man in Africa makes up his mind about something nothing will change it and mob instinct takes over.
That is racist and stupid. It will do nothing to help stop homophobia in Uganda.
I don’t believe Rich is racist or stupid; he is genuinely concerned for our gay brothers ans sisters, e.g. Iran.
Homophobia in Uganda and elsewhere is a meantal illness, and I don’t know of any cure. Children are not born with this hatred in their hearts.
Incidently, the Box Turtle Bulletin reported yesterday that NARTH has finally admiited “on paper” that coercising conversion therappy is unethical.
Happy New Year! :7)
Going by Rich’s comment (as already quoted above), it is a blatently racist thing to say. Being concerned for our LGBT brethren is important, but is an entirely seperate issue from say what Rich said. A stupid comment to make by any standard.
I’m not so sure.
Here’s a recent article in Box Turtle Bulletin that illustrates very well the kind of stupid and lying rhetoric that is whipping the Ugandans into an irreversible and tragic frenzy. Ssempa is a mentally ill and dangerous man who is incapable of changing his mind or of listening to reason, and he is livid that Rick Warren has betrayed him. As it happens, he is African, so what’s the big deal in calling him an African? That is beside the point.
The point is: Long live Equal Civil Rights!
Long live the Universal Declaration of Human Rights!
Support GayUganda now.
Uganda Gay Rights! Uganda Gay Rights! Uganda Gay Rights!
Also, why are the voices of the opposition parties not being heard in Uganda??
At this rate, the Ugandan authorities will end up at the Hague, sooner or later, hopefully sooner than later.
Democracy has been crippled in Uganda, and $200 million for medical supplies have disappeared (into the pockets of the authorities). This is a major issue, and gays are being used as a scapegoat. So what else is new?
This is doubly criminal because the those who have stolen the money have allowed thousands to die of malaria.
It boggles the mind, and it will end up at the Hague.
Recolonise Africa now.
In a just world, lots of people would end up in The Hague, but let’s not count on it. Besides: how many people could we expect in that little prison of ours?
When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property. (Exodus 21:20-21 NAB)
Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ. (Ephesians 6:5 NLT)
I’m with Patrick James and George: Rich’s remark “Once a black man in Africa makes up his mind about something nothing will change it and mob instinct takes over” is clearly a racist (and stupid) thing to say – unless, of course, you feel ‘white’ can be substituted for ‘black’ with the examples of, say, Hitler or Ceausescu in mind.
Let’s not forget some of the things that are being said about gay people in, for example, Russia (so full of black people, isn’t it?).
I would like to put the record straight here. I was born and brought up in Africa in Zimbabawe to be precise. I worked with black africans, I helped them, I tried to heal their illnesses by voluntary giving them simple medication – free, I tired to teach them and with some I succeeded. I even had a black jazz band (pianist, bass player and drums)(excellent muscians) that I used to sing with but my country Rhodesia was betrayed into the hand fanticial blacks that now run what is called Zimbabawe. I was shot at three times by black terrorits I have seen the results of the unbridled savagery that they are capable of gainst their own people and against whites. I have had a bit of experience in black africa so I stand by what I said. My message to all black gays in Uganda get out while you can. Now if you think what I wrote previously is racist, then please go to Africa especially Zimbabawe or even Uganda and see how long you will live. I am a white political refugee because of black politicians. So please don’t preach to me about being racist without finding out the facts first. I love the gay community it is a huge part of my life and I shall try to do whatever I can to save even one gay from death or beating or life imprisonment or ex-gay therapy, no matter where he is and no matter what faith or god he believes in – he is gay and very precise to me. By the way I am white and openly gay. I have had a lifetime of discrimination and homophobia (and if you think living in Poland is easy come here and try) to the point where I say stop no more. Now we fight tooth and nail. If you cannot stomach this then please think carefully before making racist comments about me.
Thanks for trying to explain Rich, but you don’t really get it, do you? As long as you associate certain types of behaviour with a person’s skin colour, or make blanket statements that suggest it, then you’re racist – or at the very least will appear so.
I have never known you to be so unforgiving, really.
We are way off the topic of this thread.
We’ll be hearing about Uganda for the next month. We need to inform ourselves and Rich has first-hand experience to share with us.
Nitpicking at one another at a time like this is self-defeating, isn’t it?
No-one here is a racist…or stupid. The situation is urgent.
Patrick James…after seeing the video clips provided @ post 9, do you agree that Ssempa is not a well man, and he lives by a legalistic view of the Old Testament? Any gay Ugandan who can leave the country would be wise to do so now, because even if the bill is defeated in Parliament in February, nothing will cure this homophobia which was nurtured, as Ssempa says, by Americans Richard Cohen and Rick Warren. Nothing will change Ssempa’s mind.
Natural Law; God’s Law; Historical Law; the Law of the Land!!! My foot. Initiation rights in Africa focused on the sexual awakening of an adolescent boy through a homosexual experience long before the time of Moses or the Pharaohs.
Rich sounds like the kind of person would would stand by anyone, regardless of skin color, who believes that Love is the Law.
Let’s get this thread back on the topic that Homosexuals are being blackmailed in Uganda right now. It’s a question of money and power, and of distracting the world from the horrendous corruption in Uganda that steals money donated for medical supplies. This will end up at the Hague, and the sooner, the better; “before” we witness another Holocaust.
Equal Civil Rights! Equal Civil Rights! Equal Civil Rights!
Send an email to GayUganda to show them your support.
* Uganda Gay Rights * Uganda Gay Rights * Uganda Gay Rights *
Sorry if I’m deflecting the purpose of this thread, JPB, but Uganda is roughly 1500kms away from Zimbabwe, a little less than the distance between the UK and Albania. I don’t think any aspect of this discussion is enhanced by the assumption that people, nations and/or cultures behave in similar ways purely because of the colour of their skin.
Unless you believe Albanians and the British have loads in common, that is…
No need to apologize, Rehan. You didn’t offend me in any way.
At worse, maybe I am over-sensitized to the situation in Uganda, but no more than to the situation in Iran, Iraq…you know what I mean.
Happy New Year: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z_MayTk1jCM
I don’t really (talk about deflecting threads!) – but if people don’t assume “first-hand” knowledge means exposure to a culture 1500kms away with the same predominant skin colour but otherwise unrelated, I’ll be happy.
Here’s to a 2010 based on fewer glib associations!
To put it bluntly then, do you believe that it is unethical for tycoons in Uganda to be bankrolling homosexuals?
Lighten up, willya!
To put it bluntly then, I’m as unlikely to “lighten up” about racism as I am about homophobia. (You might find it disappointing, but I can’t say that prospect concerns me very much.)
Homophobia is not something that is associated with race. If you think that one race is more likely to be homophobic than another then you are a fool quite frankly.
Showing a video of a homophobic black man and saying that this is in someway in the nature of black men is racist as well as being rather obviously sexist.
Rich grows up in Zimbabwe and after his voluntary work trying to help black africans. He tried to heal their illnesses using simple medication. He tried to teach them, and (gosh) with some he succeeded!
What a racist arsehole.
This problem in Uganda is homophobia. That is the issue which needs to be addressed. Suggesting that all LGBT Ugandans should leave is hardly practical. After all surely new ones will be born every day?
Combating homophobia is very difficult. This we know very well. We need to address the homophobia in Uganda in a sensible and realist way.
Jean-Paul Bentham writes:
This strikes me as a very good idea.
It might be good to ask them what we can be done to help.
I would guess that GayUganda will provide the best lead for how to proceed as they will know best the problem they are facing.
I wasn’t expecting a perfect answer from you, but you have completely avoided my question, as well as the issue at hand. I don’t know what I’ve said to deserve such contempt, but I know you a bit better now than I thought I did.
Excuse me, but sympathizing with homophobes, regardless of their race, is about as sensible and realistic a way of addressing homophobia in Uganda as The Red Pepper tabloid “printing the names, addresses, offices and makes of car belonging to the people it ‘suspects’ are financing rights movements in the country”.
By the way, you too have avoided my question @ 18. I can’t imagine why.
Support GayUganda: http://gayuganda.blogspot.com/
Being of African origin (black not white!), I have to say that whilst I appreciate that some people may be been offended by Rich’s posting #2, I fully agree with the sentiment he has expressed.
Rather than think about it in terms of race, culturally I think he is absolutely right.
Western culture has sought over centuries to suppress the mob instinct but in much of African the same education and refinement of behaviours has not be present and in some areas governments have chosen to use mob and tribal instincts to their political advantage. South Africa provides a good example of this and Rwanda another good but extreme example.
The West has also had a hand in maintaining this situation for its own ends, although that it probably a discussion for another days.
Politicians in Africa are aware that a few carefully chosen words in the right place have the potential to bring about a chain reaction, which once started can be all but impossible to stop.
Culturally much of Africa is very different from Western Europe, with a totally different mentality. Religion carries a weight not seen in this country for centuries and justice is hard. Rights for gays are trailing some distance behind rights for women and rights for children. I have absolutely not doubt that Uganda is a terrifyingly hostile place for gay people at the moment and I sincerely hope that gay people there do everything they can to conceal themselves and escape the country as soon as they can.
Hopefully they will head for countries other than the UK who will consider the high risk of murder sufficient reason not to send them back there again
Priceless comment, as usual, Sr Mary Clarence.
However, today is “another day”, and I would expand while the iron is hot on your statement:
“The West has also had a hand in maintaining this situation for its own ends, although that it probably a discussion for another days.”
Who else but Rachel Maddow knows where to brilliantly direct a spotlight? Here she is interviewing Richard Cohen whose influence on the formulation of the “kill-the-gays” bill in Uganda simply cannot be overstated:
* Uganda Gay Rights * Uganda Gay Rights * Uganda Gay Rights*
Why is it important to know about Richard Cohen’s influence in Uganda?
Well, for one thing, the article states that:
“The Box Turtle and blogger GayUganda identify the paper’s (The Red Pepper) source for its most recent article as Paul Kagaba, an “ex-gay”.
greetings. From Uganda.
I came over here on invitation… Tend to keep kind of to myself., when I am not shouting off.
It is true, all gay Ugandans should get out of the country, with the kind of genocidal nonsense that the bill is after. Lots of people are telling us that. And, they are correct.
But, that is easier said than done. Uganda is a third world country. Most of us are desperately poor. But, we still have deep roots which cannot be just let go. Uganda, terrible as it is, is home.
So, even I who can get out now, am reluctant.
But, the bill is not yet law. At least for now, the frank homophobia and hate talk has not deteriorated into violence. It is in truth creating the atmosphere for it. But, not yet.
Thanks to friends outside the country, thanks to your pressure on the political and religious figures in countries outside Uganda, that bill may not become law.
That is our hope. Of course, we cant speak in Uganda. But, you do speak for us, and we do appreciate.
Man, it sure is good to hear from you!! Please stick around.
Yes, I read a story about a gay Ugandan who couldn’t imagine leaving his country, his beautiful country, and his family and friends.
I am also following the story on the United Nation Report site. It is always difficult for me to notice how much the ex-gays believe that Ssempa is doing “god’s will” and all that crap.
We spend a fair amount of time here at PinkNews arguing and debating with ex-gay fundamentalists who come on here and try to upset us and disrupt our conversations, even if they know very well that they will never convert us. Some of them are so stupid as to try to make us believe that conversion therapy works. They simply cannot believe that we are born gay and that we are happy to be gay.
So you say that the stage is being set for violence. The world is watching Uganda very closely. And your website, GayUganda, is highly informative.
I am so curious to know what the opposition parties are doing. I know their activities are limited by the President, but surely they are not supporting the anti-gay bill. These are the kinds of things we need to know. How badly crippled is the democratic process there?
Thank you so much for coming here.
Gug, I don’t know what to say that wouldn’t seem trite. I’m not living under an oppressive regime in fear of my life, so what can I possibly say that helps? Sympathy is easy to offer without any action to go with it.
My first thought about this was ‘all gays should get out while they can’, but of course it isn’t so simple as that.
What worries me most, is that this isn’t a worldwide story. It has faded from the mainstream media already. millions of Europeans don’t even know about this crisis. So even if gays did choose to leave Uganda, where would they go? They would be refugees in countries that didn’t understand their fear and subject to immigration rules unlikely to be sympathetic to them.
So while you have all my sympathy, gug, my question has to be, what else can people living safely away from such hostility do to help? Please tell us.
for the opposition parties, they were very firmly for the bill. Indeed, one of their members co-sponsored the bill in a spirit of ‘bi-partisanship’ or whatever. When they became aware of the opposition from outside the country, they have been backing off.
But, the ‘anti-gay’ faction is so strong, and has been making such a campaign for most of the year that most people are for the bill. so much that it would literally be political suicide if a politician came out against the bill. But, some opposition party members are coming up and saying no, because they fear that the draconian penalties will be applied to them when they campaign against the govt. It is a favourite tactic.
What you can still do is continue putting pressure on YOUR politicians. That pressure has worked already, and, we have more chances of this bill not becoming law. Not like at first when the world didnt know about it.
So, the pressure can still work for us. So, please, continue putting pressure on your politicians.
For the refugee problem, that pressure is working for us again. Countries are offering refuge even at the moment. Which is a great thing. But, most of us cannot leave, so we still have to work for the outside chance that the bill is withdrawn, or watered down so much that it is no longer a threat.
OK, GayUganda is telling us very plainly what we need to do if we REALLY have any concern about the appalling legislation waiting in the wings in Uganda.
So, PinkNews people, let’s do it! Let’s start putting MORE pressure on OUR UK politicians in all sorts of different ways, starting NOW!
First of all, PinkNews itself. Can you mount a permanent campaign on your front page, directing everyone to sign a/the petition at Downing Street? I will write to PinkNews staff immediately to ask them to do this.
Simon Murphy, you’re brilliant at providing us with the email addresses of the UK powerful. Please do your stuff. Gays in Uganda need you now.
What other ideas are there?
What about organizing a demonstration/protest in London?
Outrage, how you do some separate Direct Action? You’re brilliant at it. Now’s the time.
Lastly, to all those people saying to the gays and lesbians of Uganda, “Get out now, while you can!” that is NOT an option. Stop and think! What are little gay boys and little lesbian girls, yet to be born, going to do? Remember, even if all the adult gays and lesbians did leave, the problem would remain. Children and youngsters would be terrorised into some narrow interpretation of heterosexuality for years to come until eventually this Nazi-like persecution ended.
The peoples of Africa are radically culturally different from most of the population of the UK. They have a very different mindset, particularly on certain issues. With regard to sexuality and the fate of the homosexuals of Uganda we have a duty to curb and direct that mindset. We MUST continue to exert massive pressure on our politicans so that they embarrass Uganda on the world stage, AND on the African stage.
Come on, ideas and action is what we need to attend to!
Posting comments on these threads is easy, but comparatively useless in terms of actually DOING SOMETHING to help gays and lesbians in Uganda.
USA, Canadian, Australian, New Zealand, and Continental readers: what are YOU doing to motivate YOUR politicians to take a stand against Uganda.
The politicians of Uganda are NOT as sure about the intended legislation as they seem. They may well drop it, if they see a significant number of nations call on them to reject it.
Jean-Paul Bentham, post 26: I’m afraid I find the suggestion “lighten up” in relation to issues like racism or homophobia contemptible; I’m surprised you can imagine otherwise.
As for the issue at hand, I don’t think it is really about Ugandan tycoons ‘bankrolling homosexuals’; it seems to me it’s more about rabble-rousing journalism at its most repulsive, using ignorance, homophobia and conspiracy theories lethally combined to discredit political rivals and/or other outsiders. It has disturbing echoes of McCarthyist witch-hunts in the US not even, let’s not forget, 60 years ago.
As for whether I ‘believe that it is unethical for tycoons in Uganda to be bankrolling homosexuals’, I can’t imagine why you would ask such a question: did I somehow suggest that I’d think so? If there are in fact any Ugandan tycoons who’re actually willing to fund human-rights efforts, then good for them!
So good to see you here. As a Canadian know what I have to do; our Prime Minister has already stated his opposition, but I can continue speaking to my MP whose office is only a stone’s throw from here.
Thanks again, GayUganda.
I’m sorry for the misunderstanding…my fault, OK.
You’ve got the kind of brains to analyze this situation, and your collaboration would be appreciated.
Rehan, meet Eddy; Eddy, Rehan.
This will give you an idea of what Canadians Gays have done so far; maybe it’ll give others some ideas too:
Phew – thanks, JPB. But I think Eddy has said everything that needs to be said. For once I might even pull my finger out and send my own MP a letter.
“I don’t think it is really about Ugandan tycoons ‘bankrolling homosexuals’; it seems to me it’s more about rabble-rousing journalism.”
Absolutely. I thought that from the start. The comparison to MacArthyism is also spot on.
Well I wish they’d Bankroll this Homo!
You’ve got everything you need, and you know it! Or are we talking about the same thing? haha!!
“The comparison to McCarthyism is also spot on.”
Thank you, Rose. I think it’s more useful to see how easily even prosperous and advanced societies can fall victim to this sort of hysteria even in the fairly recent past, because it may give us an idea of how to help overcome such situations.
It’s stupid to say this is like McCarthyism, it is completely different, and distorts what is actually causing this. This is happening because of religion not politics. christianity is to blame, for brainwashing and giving the authorities the moral justification to act like they are – as islam is to blame for the way in which gay people are treated in the middle east. Uganda is leading the way in africa with its form of christian fundamentalism, which is leading to this kind of backward, retarded, mono mob instinct. As long as monotheism rules this planet, gay people may as well forget equality. I agree with Rich – if you are gay and you live in Uganda and you want a good life, get out now. Otherwise you’ll either be in the closetc or dead in a couple of years. And yes it may sound reactionary, but if someone had told the jews to get out of germany before they were all gassed, then millions of people would not have suffered – not only in the gas chambers but in the war. Anyone who advises a gay ugandan to stay and fight – i suggest you get your case packed, buy an ‘IM GAY’ t-shirt and fly out to uganda and see how you like it. And for anyone who is worried that too much reactionary speak may lead to something terrible, like a war – stop dreaming, when was the last war fought because of homosexuality? answer – never. heteros would never go to war for homos.
On the subject of stupid ….
“Lastly, to all those people saying to the gays and lesbians of Uganda, “Get out now, while you can!” that is NOT an option. Stop and think! What are little gay boys and little lesbian girls, yet to be born, going to do? Remember, even if all the adult gays and lesbians did leave, the problem would remain. Children and youngsters would be terrorised into some narrow interpretation of heterosexuality”
And if the Jews hadn’t fled Nazi controlled Europe, Eddy?
I think even more of them would have been dead.
- Uganda will balk against pressure from Europe and America if they try to influence internal affairs in the country.
- The ground has been laid, as now has been confirmed, for the onset of violence.
- There is little internal opposition to the bill, and therefore likely to be little sanctuary from it.
Yes, gay Ugandas can stay, God knows Anne Frank managed it in Amsterdam in 1942, but is it really fair for the West to start saying to gay Ugandans that they should stay and risk a brutal death for the benefit of future generations, when we are probably more aware than many of those poor Ugandan gays of just how ugly the situation is getting?
Foreign nationals can claim asylum at the British Embassy or any other, it would probably worth clarifying the government response if this starts to happen, and if sympathetic, making this known to those living in Uganda.
“…. but if someone had told the jews to get out of germany before they were all gassed, then millions of people would not have suffered ….”
James I could not agree more!!!
Although in principle I agree with the idea that gay Ugandans would be better off leaving Uganda in droves, in practice we all know this isn’t logistically possible.
For starters, many gay Ugandans wouldn’t be able to afford the airfare in the first place as gayugandan rightly pointed out. Secondly, what happens to the next generation of Gay Ugandans? There’s barely any support there as it is, if you remove all gay Ugandans I dread to think what it will be like for the ones left behind.
Uganda’s political elite are averse to all forms of western interferance and see us all as a bunch of degenerates so negotiation from our side is a non-starter. I wish there was some magic solution to all that but I can’t actually see one as yet.
An increased awareness of the situation is already an excellent way to begin, and it looks to me like we are doing this right here and now. Needless to say, we are gifted to have gayuganda among us.
His advise, as you will recall, is to get in touch with our politicians and to let them know how concerned we are. We are all concerned, I can plainly see that, and gayuganda is keeping an eye on PinkNews so that the more we attempt to understand the different factors involved, the more we are feeding positive energy into gay Ugandans.
This is not the Twilight Zone, but you know how ideas can influence reality.
I don’t know that any one of us can take on the role of leadership here; we are all leaders and we are all new to this kind of experience.
However, don’t you agree that it will encourage us to constantly bring to mind and also to remind our politicians, not once, but once a day if need be, that we are not alone?
There are some pretty impressive international organizations who are just as concerned, if not more more, as we are…not only for the fate of our gay brothers and sisters but also about the deterioration of democracy in Uganda, not to mention the corruption. Countless millions of dollars destined for medical aid have disappeared, don’t forget, and most likely have been used to supply the army with state-of-the-art weapons. Such is life in our times.
Among our assets, we have this thread at PinkNews where we can contribute our ideas and our feelings, and in that way kick start a creative process that can have surprising – I hesitate to use the word miraculous – results.
I know we all feel helpless…that is all part of the process on which we are embarking. We all have our lives to live; let’s carry on while keeping the flame of consciousness about the situation in Uganda burning. Also, we don’t need to feel that we are carrying the weight of the world on our shoulders. There are many important and powerful factors opposing this bill: political, economic and social justice factors – more than we can imagine.
You know as much as I do about these organisations; I personally contribute to Amnesty. But there are dozens of these highly effectrive organisations listed at the end end of the article cited at post 39, e.g.
I intend to email or call as many of these organisations as possible and to express my concern. Expressing concern may not seem like much, but to those who are working for equal rights, an expression of concern from the public is a tremendous boost to their morale because so much of their tireless work has gone and continues to go unnoticed.
Also, we know who the enemy is: we have names of people and churches who are pushing to stomp out evil “in others”, as if that is possible…the creation of a “perfect race” is the stuff of science fiction, we know that. In that sense, we can expect the unexpected, e.g. the sudden appearance on this thread of ex-gay homophobic fundies who are experts at disrupting our collective efforts.
Finally, many of us have already gone onto to the GayUganda website and left a word of support. We may not realize how much good that can do to gay men and women in Uganda who cannot but feel isolated and targeted right now.
Sorry if I sound preachy; that is not my intention. I just need to express myself and I encourage you all to do the same.
Gays are NOT a threat to traditional family values!!
Equal Civil Rights! * Equal Civil Right! * Equal Civil Rights!
While people are bandying words like ‘stupid’ around, let’s clarify a couple of things. First, I would suggest most people are aware that McCarthyism refers to a political and not religious movement; however, my point is that the scapegoating and scaremongering tactics being used by politicians in Uganda are the same and are, distressingly, being similarly effective. (I don’t disagree about the dangers of the big monotheistic religions though.)
And as for flippant beyond stupidity, “get out now” – I mean, WTF? Have you all forgotten about the Ugandan Lesbian who applied for asylum in the UK and despite petitions and appeals left, right and centre was sent back a couple of years ago? What are Ugandan gays who flee supposed to live on? What work are they going to find? It’s so pathetically easy to say “leave your home country”, why don’t you think about what people have to do afterwards, where and how they are going to live in a strange country with no family, no money and no friends?
Sister Mary Clarence, yes, if ALL the Jews had removed themselves from Germany before the Nazis began their oppression, then, yes, no Jews would have been killed by the Nazis. True.
But, no, if ALL the gays and lesbians remove themselves from Uganda before the proposed legislation is passed, that will NOT mean that that problem will have been solved.
One cannot compare the Jews in Germany with homosexual people in any country. Jews are born of Jews. Homosexuals are born of heterosexuals.
Even if it WERE possible to safely remove all people in Uganda who currently identify as homosexual, there will still be more homosexuals being produced by the heterosexuals who remain.
When a little boy in some outlying Ugandan village behaves in a way which suggests he is likely to be gay who will get to him first? A rescuer with a miraculous one-way air-ticket to a happy adoptive family in the West, or fear-ridden Ugandans?
Obviously the fear-ridden Ugandans will get to him first.
We all have to think of those Ugandan children, still to be born.
That’s right Eddie we do, but how many of the current gay population is it okay to allow macheted to death to death in order to achieve a Uganda where gay people can walk the streets safely.
I wonder now if the same situation existed here in the UK how many people advocating gays staying in Uganda would actually be staying here. I suspect most would be whipping out the Barclaycard and making off to the safest location they could find.
What sort of a position it is to take to say to these people stay and quite possibly die because your martyrdom may possibly make the country safer for generations to come (although it may not).
Whilst many of them may not be able to afford the fare to leave the country, there exists a far cheaper option of claiming asylum at any one of a large number of embassies and consulates in the country. Britain is undoubtedly not the friendliest place to show your face claiming asylum but other countries are more open to accepting asylum seekers from countries that murder homosexuals.
I would imagine that if foreign embassies are overwhelmed with crowds of asylum applicants hammering at the doors it won’t take long before the issue becomes much more of an international incident.
Whatever the end game is, stay and die is an appalling option.
“Britain is undoubtedly not the friendliest place to show your face claiming asylum but other countries are more open to accepting asylum seekers from countries that murder homosexuals.”
Oh really? For example? And these would be countries that could cope with the relevant proportion of a population of 32m (most of whom, I’d guess, don’t have Barclaycards to hand)?
I don’t mean to suggest that being hacked to death in one’s home country is a viable option, but I would suggest that advising “get out quick” is not particularly realistic either.
If every gay man and woman did leave uganda in their droves, all at the same time – like the jews leaving Egypt when they fled from slavery – I think the world would sit up and listen like never before. The march to freedom would make amazing news images. Imagine thousands of gay people leaving the country all at the same time, like a gay pride/exodus – it would be on every news chanel. Did Moses hire charter planes to get his people out of Egypt – NO. Did the jews turn round to him and say “well we haven’t got a credit card” – NO. The people found a collective spirit in one another, and they helped one another out of slavery. But then when you contemplate this, you remember that 90% of Africa is a backward, uneducated mess – if they walked out of Uganda, they would head either in to kenya (where you get 15 years in prison), sudan (which also carries the death penalty), the congo (where you get 10 years), tanzania (10 years in prison), rwanda (which I think is in the process of decriminilizing homos), so Rwanda’s your best bet Uganda, but then they do have a history with genocide, so maybe continue walking after that – keep quiet in Zambia as you’ll get 10 years there too, then go through zimbabwe, but keep quiet there as well – 10 years in prsion I’m afraid – then you’ll reach the promised land of South Africa, where you not only have equality, but you can get married too.
Why does anyone think that international pressure will stop this? WAKE UP. Gay people get and have been slaughtered/persecuted in iran, iraq, saudi arabia, sudan, etc.etc. (and all of the above mentioned countries – im sure you all know the list, or judging from your lack of critiscm of other countries which carry the death penalty for homosexuality, probably not) for eons, and have the international community ever done anything about any of those countries – NO. So why would they start with Uganda?
There is only ONE answer to this and every other gay equality issue – but I’m not going to tell you what it is – you have to work it out for yourself.
Rehan, I don’t mean to single you out or have a go at you, but we live in a very different world to gay people in Africa, and the right we have and the responsibilities that society has towards us are simply not there in Uganda and many/most other African countries.
Had my mother not been forced to leave there but for the grace of God would I have been, and I consider myself to be extremely lucky.
It has been made very clear that gays in Uganda are on the cusp of annihilation with little will from anyone in the country to find another path.
Sabre rattling in the West may stop the immediate threat, but there are going to be those within the country who will store it away and use it to their own advantage at some point in the future.
The driver behind this has not been some backward uneducated African warlord, it has been driven by educated, articulate, rich men in the States, who are fully aware of the consequences of their actions and are choosing to exercise influence and power they could only wish for in their own country. A very visible and public mass exit from the country would stir the world up to take notice, whereas the slow creeping assassination over an extended period of time of every last gay in the country will sadly not be given many column inches in the Western press.
Each execution represents a life lost, a life that can never be recovered or replaced. Those lives that people would have sacrificed for a martyrdom or a greater cause could be the very lives that were destined to change the face of that nation, to bring peace and stability, to heal the sick and cure diseases, to end corruption in the region. We do not know what any one of them might have been, and what the premature loss of their life might deprive the world of.
As many people who can get out need to get out, and the world needs to ask why. The world needs to ask how a group of religious bigots could exert such influence over the government of nation to such an extent that millions were in mortal danger. How it came about that no one saw this coming. How it was that other governments didn’t intervene until it was too late, and how it is to be prevented from happening again
James: True,there are countries with the death penalty for homosexuality that the Western world continues to deal with, Saudi most conspicuously – I suppose being in need of oil that makes it hard for more advanced nations to take the upper hand. As far as I know, however, Uganda is more in need of the developed world than the other way round and, crude though that power-balance may be, it gives us a stronger voice. In the circumstances, it will be interesting to see if Rwanda will continue with their proposed criminalisation of homosexuality or not.
(BTW, if a theory is not tenable or realistically workable, it’s not an ‘answer’, it remains a ‘theory’, doesn’t it?)
SMC I hear what you’re saying, but remember that less than 200 years ago Britain was the last country in Western Europe to retain, and implement, capital punishment for ‘sodomy’. Attitudes changed here, why should they not elsewhere? South Africa’s startling advances mean there’s hope for other African nations too (though it’d be interesting to know how many black South Africans have married same-sex partners compared to white).
Also, the obvious issues of funding and work permits aside, gay people seldom form a single visible group, specially in a country where homosexuality is outlawed, so an exodus is unlikely to be recognised as such internationally.
As for why there are two non-Islamic African nations currently proposing to tighten, rather than relax, laws restricting sexual minorities, we do need to find out why that’s happening, it’s certainly a worrying and puzzling trend.
Being part Jewish I think I can shed a wee bit of light on early Nazi Germany. People who could put two and two together DID urge Jews to leave. However, many people did not believe that Hitler and his henchmen would ever do what they did.
Yes, wealthy Jews could leave, for a while. A few did. But from the beginning that was not an option for poor Jews, like poor Ugandans. Als once things began to get really bad, many countries simply would not take any Jews, period. One of the big offenders was the US.
So yes, it is ignorant to say the Ugandans should just get out. In most cases it’s not even a remote personality. Decency says they should be accepted as refugees, but they likely won’t be, not if history is any indication.
And, as has been pointed out, that won’t do anything for GLBTQ children who exist now and those born in future.
I believe the best bet is to keep putting pressure on western governments to keep the pressure on the Ugandan government. Pull aid, do whatever is necessary to keep people from being murdered.
Sorry…I meant “possibility” for personality. Brain starting to short out for the night.
I’d like to add that eventually the Nazis consfiscated Jewish property/monies so that even though many had begun to understand the real Nazi aims, they could not leave. But as I have said, for the really poor Jews, leaving was never a real possibility. Would that other countries would have opted for non-appeasement.
This is what I think we should do now: pressure all governments that may have and do have influence in Uganda to NOT appease the Ugandan government.
It’s my understanding that many of the liberal-minded countries have indeed stated their opposition to this bill, but that the President of Uganda, and especially Ssempa, are of a mind to refuse to be influenced by the West, especially Europe whom they blame for the presence of homosexuality in Uganda in the first place.
I like Sister Mary Clarence’s idea (53) of friendly embassies inviting gays onto their compounds, or of gays invading these embassies, to draw international attention, which, by the way, is focused anywhere except on Uganda at this moment.
Still, I struggle with the idea that all gays should stay in Uganda in the sense that an educated and well-informed Uganda gay man or woman could do so much more by staying alive outside the country and promoting human rights by exposing the corruption endemic to the Ugandan government.
I was disappointed to learn that although the Canadian Prime Minister has expressed his disapproval of the anti-gay bill and has stressed that the Ugandan government has the responsibility to protect its minority groups instead of persecuting them, that Canada’s embassy for the region is situated in Kenya. Still, I have found the name of Uganda’s High Commissioner in Canada and I have already begun a personal campaign to write or call him regularly.
In a perfect world, it would be the religious nutters who have begun this outrageous situation who would be tarred and feathered and run out of the country on a rail…beginning with Ssempa.
I visited the GayUganda website just a while ago, and “gug” is suggesting that gays in free countries organize a demonstration in front of Uganda embassies on January 19th, the same day that Ssempa will be holding a pro-bill demonstration in Kampala. I hope no-one gets the idea of throwing a house-brick tied with a pink ribbon through the windshield window of the Ugandan ambassador’s limousine.
Heretical religion is at the root of this whole sordid mess, and their vision of Utopia, or heaven on earth, is nothing short of insane so that history will certainly not be kind to them, especially since they are going against a world trend towards greater human rights in the 21st century.
And someone, somewhere, is making a fortune with this.
The Only people who actually read the garbage that the said paper and web blogs are the state homophobics and right wing religious facsists—it is they who have corrupted the minds of so called “EX GAYS” by the threat of a beating–imprisonment or a few bob in the back pocket to lie and cheat–
The true and good people of Uganda will one day reconise the truth and corruption of these people—their own government treats the people with comtempt–they will be seen through in time
Solidarity with UGANDA LGBTI and the true and good citizens of UGANDA
Has anyone read this news item in today’s Box Turtle Bulletin:
Exodus Board Members Plays The “Dupe” In Uganda
This commentary is the opinion of the author, and does not necessarily reflect those of other authors at Box Turtle Bulletin.
January 3rd, 2010
(This first paragraaph refers to a color photo which did not copy)-JP.
L-R: Unidentified woman, American holocaust revisionist Scott Lively, International Healing Foundation’s Caleb Brundidge, Exodus International boardmember Don Schmierer, Family Life Network (Uganda)’s Stephen Langa, at the time of the March 2009 anti-gay conference in Uganda.
The New York Times has finally taken notice of the anti-gay pogrom that has been brewing in Uganda for nearly a year now. In Monday morning’s edition, Jeffrey Gettleman provides a brief overview of events over the past year that has led up to Uganda’s current attempt to legislate gay people out of existence, beginning with that infamous anti-homosexuality conference put on last March by three American anti-gay activists:
The three Americans who spoke at the conference — Scott Lively, a missionary who has written several books against homosexuality, including “7 Steps to Recruit-Proof Your Child”; Caleb Lee Brundidge, a self-described former gay man who leads “healing seminars”; and Don Schmierer, a board member of Exodus International, whose mission is “mobilizing the body of Christ to minister grace and truth to a world impacted by homosexuality” — are now trying to distance themselves from the bill.
“I feel duped,” Mr. Schmierer said, arguing that he had been invited to speak on “parenting skills” for families with gay children. He acknowledged telling audiences how homosexuals could be converted into heterosexuals, but he said he had no idea some Ugandans were contemplating the death penalty for homosexuality.
“That’s horrible, absolutely horrible,” he said. “Some of the nicest people I have ever met are gay people.”
What Schmierer has yet to acknowledge is that he had every opportunity not to be “duped,” as he put it. BTB’s Timothy Kincaid sent a warning via Exodus International president Alan Chambers before the conference took place, explaining exactly what he was getting into. Chambers either didn’t pass the warning on to Schmierer, or Schmierer chose to ignore it. The aggravating thing is that this could have been avoided — or, at the very least Exodus International’s implicit participation in the conference.
And of course, let’s not forget Exodus’s first attempt at “fixing” the problem they created — their hamfisted attempt to put a positive spin on Schmierer’s talk by “applauding” his being there.
Schmierer’s behavior in all of this is beyond appalling. He has yet to man up to his responsibility for his actions. Instead, his only public response has been to behave as a befuddled grandfather wondering what the fuss is all about. Charming in some quarters I’m sure, but of absolutely no use whatsoever to the people of Uganda who now stand to fear the midnight knock on the door — and possibly even the gallows. We’ve already seen arrests and blackmail, as well as accusations of homosexuality used as a political and sectarian weapon this year. This Times article provides further illustration of what people in Uganda have gone through:
Human rights advocates in Uganda say the visit by the three Americans helped set in motion what could be a very dangerous cycle. Gay Ugandans already describe a world of beatings, blackmail, death threats like “Die Sodomite!” scrawled on their homes, constant harassment and even so-called correctional rape.
“Now we really have to go undercover,” said Stosh Mugisha, a gay rights activist who said she was pinned down in a guava orchard and raped by a farmhand who wanted to cure her of her attraction to girls. She said that she was impregnated and infected with H.I.V., but that her grandmother’s reaction was simply, “ ‘You are too stubborn.’ ”
…“What these people have done is set the fire they can’t quench,” said the Rev. Kapya Kaoma, a Zambian who went undercover for six months to chronicle the relationship between the African anti-homosexual movement and American evangelicals.
Mr. Kaoma was at the conference and said that the three Americans “underestimated the homophobia in Uganda” and “what it means to Africans when you speak about a certain group trying to destroy their children and their families.”
“When you speak like that,” he said, “Africans will fight to the death.”
This, of course, is nothing compared to what we will see should the Anti-Homosexuality Bill become law.
“What, me worry?” Exodus board member Don Schmierer.
“What, me worry?” Exodus board member Don Schmierer.
If Shmierer feels “duped,” then he needs to put a stop to his helplessness act and behave like a responsible adult. He has no problem traveling extensively around the world when it suits his purposes. This might be a good time for him to return to Uganda, to go on radio and television and talk to newspaper reporters — to try to fix what he helped break. He’s a world traveler, and he’s been to Uganda before; he knows the way.
But since the Exodus gang has no track record whatsoever in accepting responsibility for any of their actions, I predict that Schmierer, Chambers and the rest of Exodus will sit on their hands and pretend that nothing’s wrong. They’ll point to their solitary letter which got no play whatsoever in Ugandan media, and pretend that this small act was sufficient.
Having said that, I keep hoping that someday someone over there will seize the opportunity to prove me wrong. Sure, they’ll grumble about how mean we “militant homosexual activists” are. (That’s Exodus vice-president Randy Thomas new euphemism for this blog.) But their own engagement in the culture war blinds them from seeing the win-win two-fer that’s before them: they can take the bold steps necessary to correct their egregious mistakes and simultaneously make all of us “militant homosexual activists” look like idiots. All in one fell swoop.
But since they’ve been so entirely predictable, I’ll stick with my prediction. Schimierer will continue with his helplessness act, Chambers will pretend that his letter is enough, and Exodus will go on its merry way and pretend that nothing went wrong on their watch.
The ball is in their court to prove me wrong. I’ll even sweeten the pot: if they can prove me wrong, I’ll wear a dunce hat, publicly proclaim how wrong I was, and issue an apology of my own. Because I’m a man who stands behind my principle.”
From the practical point of view, this means that Richard Cohen could add a chapter to the 4th edition of his ex-gay therapy handbook, “Coming Out Straight”: How to get egg off your face.
Why have we seen no BBC or C4 documentaries on this whole thing yet? Way overdue!
The New York Times picked up the story yesterday, at last. And GayUganda is having a field day with it.
Check out “gug’s” blog at http://gayuganda.blogspot.com/
The guy is as cool as a cucumber and has a lot to teach us about how intelligent gays are all over the world, and especially in the heart of Africa.
* UGANDA GAY RIGHTS * UGANDA GAY RIGHTS * UGANDA GAY RIGHTS *
Very strange – I came across this curious story about the alleged kidnap and torture of 2 aids to the brother of Archbp of York, who is a pastor in Uganda, in an attempt to smear the Archbp’s brother as gay:
“It turns out that Archbishop Semtamu is the older brother of a megachurch pastor by the name of Robert Kayanja. If that name rings a bell, it may be because we reported last May that Kayanja, a wealthy and powerful pastor of the Rubaga Miracle Center in Kampala, was accused of being gay by rival pastors led Solomon Male. Kayanja’s personal aide was allegedly kidnapped and tortured by armed men and held for five days, as his captors demanded that he make a video accusing Kayanja of sodomy. Kayanja accused another rival, Pastor Michael Kyazze of the Omega Healing Center of being behind the plot.
Pastor Martin Ssempa, who has been the recipient of US HIV/AIDS prevention funding and has past ties to American megachurch pastor Rick Warren, also played a prominent role in the accusations against Kayanja, as well as other well-known pastors in Uganda….”