Nothing like waiting to see which way the wind is blowing before taking a stand. Welcome John, better late than never! Bring your boss too, it’s safe to come out now!
About time too! I hope they stayed quiet in the hope that private conversation would be more likely to influence the Ugandans. I do hope they were right.
“The Archbishop of York has condemned proposals in Uganda to put to death gay people who have sex with a ( minor ).”
Which one is it? Is it homosexual paedophiles child molesters
What is the BBC up to?
Thank God! I was getting to be utterly embarassed to be an Anglican. I suppose they have been leaning heavily on the Ugandan Church behind the scenes but it has been dispiriting to behold.
“Uganda’s minister for ethics and integrity, James Nsaba Buturo, said this week that the death penalty could be removed in favour of life imprisonment, which he said would allow gays to be rehabilitated.”
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
* Gay cure therpaies . . . which can cause anxiety depression and suicide ?
* Chemical castrations . . . which can cause anxiety depression and suicide ?
* Electro-shock aversion therapies . . . which can cause anxiety depression and suicide ?
People should not be “embarassed” or even embarrassed to be xians, they should be ashamed.
Indeed gay people should be deeply ashamed at being members of most Christian sects. Apart from the intellectual deficiency of believing in the more absurd fairy stories about virgin births, rising from the dead and similar claptrap, John and the rest of the gay Anglican and catholic mob might like to consider that both institutions, which they have the nerve to support on a gay website, are deeply homophobic and by their support and their active presence I assume at services they are endorsing that homophobia. I ask John to look at Rowan Williams’ attitude to the consecration of a lesbian bishop. he was not just unwilling to help – he did everything he could to hinder. That is why any gay person attending an Anglican (and especially catholic) service over the Christian-incarnation-myth holiday should be truly ashamed of their intellectual treason.
Happy Saturnalia :-)
BBC radio 4?
Did he actually say gay people who have sex with a minor.”
I cannot find it anywhere.
The press Association homosexuals.
guardian.co.uk, Thursday 24 December 2009 10.40 GMT
The BBC having sex with minors.
BBC News website is the only place where it refers to
having sex with minors.
Must have been upset by the complaints.
So its OK to lock us up and imprison us for life John Sentamu?
Actually Harry many of us struggle with the officail attitude of the Church (not just the Anglican one). Yep, they suffer from centuries of ingrained homophobia as does society as a whole and what keeps some of us in there is our desire to change it and make them genuinely inclusive and welcoming to ALL. I’m not going to defend the indefensible – I’ve blogged fiercely agin Rowan Williams mixture of silence and speed – but to balance the Ugandan expression of “Anglican” values there is the courage of Desmond Tutu, Gene Robinson and the vicar who gave Oscar Wilde a roof over his head when he left Reading Jail. Please don’t tar every Christian with the brush of instituional homophobia – we are fighting it from within and a very lonely road it can be, especially when the LGBT community isn’t supportive of your efforts. Just because Hitler’s Brownshirts were led by a gay man doesn’t mean every gay man is a Nazi. Same with the Church. And at Christmas I go go to worship God, not an institution. It’s the company that helps.
John love, a church based on your Christmas “go go” dancing sounds fab and just as coherent as one based on the needs of the baby Jesus or even the somewhat more coherent flying spaghetti monster (may you be touched …. He is pink _and_ invisible). Your ref to the Nazis is interesting – just because some Nazis were gay doesn’t mean we should not hate them – just because some xians are gay that is no reason to trust them – I would no more trust a gay Xian than I would trust Ernst Röhm.
John: do not accuse any individual Christian (a fortiori you) of being a homophobe – just most of them. I accept that there are honourable Christians in the Anglican communion. But by going to church non-homophobic Anglicans (such as there are of them) in this country are, quite simply, *endorsing* what the C of E (not the Anglican churches in SA or the USA endorse. It is a straightforward political act, coupled with the belief in fairy stories, for which I suppose I pity you.
I’d like to sympathise with you in your loneliness. But the one thing that stops me is the – if I may say so – somewhat frightening statement, which you must be too intelligent really to believe, that the (CofE) church suffers ” … from centuries of ingrained homophobia *as does society as a whole*”. That implies that the church is just reflecting homophobia in society and it is quite frankly tosh. The churches (certain ones not under discussion here excepted) are the prime movers of homophobia in society, not it s followers. Without religion we’d have gay marriage and a host of other benefits long since.
Who were the ones that insisted on CPs rather than weddings for committed gay couples? The Anglican and Papist churches.
Who are even now campaigning against the Equality Bill seeking to continue to practise homophobia? The Anglican and Papist churches.
Who campaigned against gay adoption rights? The Anglican and Papist churches.
Who campaigned against the existing equality laws? The Anglican and Papist churches.
And so on and so on. And in effect and however well meaning you are your presence in church tonight will support that. if you must worship god there are a few gay friendly institutions for you.
You misrepresent the CofE if you assert that it can now or will in the future be other than a drag on gay rights and a delay on progress to full equality. A touch of rose tinted spectacles?
That all said, I’d be interested in a reference to your blog if you feel able to give it.
I lodged a formal complaint.
“Gay people who have sex with a minor”.
Has been deleted it now reads:
“The Archbishop of York has condemned an anti-homosexuality bill going through parliament in Uganda”.
First time round I lodged a complaint in my name
and at no time was it about paedophiles.
Homosexuals are homosexuals they are not paedophiles. I am not a paedophile.
Snapshot of the original BBC website:
Well done Philip. Looks like you caught out the BBC getting up to no good again, and that screencap proves the point.
“The reason why [the Archbishop of] Canterbury and I haven’t actually come out publicly …” (etc)
Dear John, is there something you two are trying to tell us here?…
I’d much rather hear what the Opposition Party in Uganda has to say.
It’s no big mystery what the RCC will eventually say…please refer to page so and so in your catechism.
And then there’s the C of E Archbishop of Uganda, isn’t there?
Didn’t he tell Dr. Williams where to go last June while fanning the flames of homophobia along with Warren and “The Family”?
Basic facts about Uganda:
Official Name: Uganda
Capital: Kampala – Pop. 1,246,000
Area: 241,038 sq. km. / 149,774 sq. miles.
Language: English, Ganda or Luganda, many local languages
Religion: Roman Catholic, Protestant, indigenous beliefs, Muslim
Status of Homosexuality: Illegal for males
Telephone Country Code: 256
To reduce sectarian violence, Ugandan political parties were restricted in their activities from 1986-2005.
In the non-party “Movement” system instituted by Yoweri Museveni, political parties continued to exist, but they could only operate a headquarter office. They could not open branches, hold rallies or field candidates directly (although electoral candidates could belong to political parties).
A constitutional referendum canceled this nineteen-year ban on multi-party politics in July 2005.
Presidential elections were held in February 2006. Yoweri Museveni won against several candidates. As usual the result were challenged but the country is relatively stable except for rebel activity in the northeast.
Homosexuality is illegal in Uganda and gay activists are regularly harassed and taken into custody then released. It is the first country in the world to have a constitutional ban on same-sex marriage (since 2004).
Sentamu must have a touch of the so-called “Christmas spirit” if he has at last opened his mouth about what’s going on in Uganda; his Christmas wish for our brothers and sisters in Uganda……….well, life instead of the noose.
How good can it get in the Anglican universe?
Hark, the herald angels sing,
Peace on Earth and mercy mild.
Yes, we know the “mercy mild” of Christians,
thank you very much!
Bonnes Fêtes, gaies et joyeuses, à toutes et à tous,
Felices Fiestas, Boas Festas.
I am afraid that both the Archbishops of Canterbury & York have left their criticism far too late. The Ugandans are likely to see their public intervention for what it is: the result of public pressure to speak rather than any sincere concerns for the welfare, liberty or survival of gays. Cantaur’s regressive move towards appeasing the so-called “Christian” Right has simply encouraged them to make ever more strident demands whilst offering no substantive compromise themselves. Like the cuckoo in the Christian Nest, they want total capitulation to their extreme, crusading agenda, which has no place for compassion, forgiveness, non-judgementalism or unconditional love or charity. They have made their position abundantly clear by lobbying Parliament to allow them to opt out of laws they disagree with whilst demanding others obey Christian derived law.
Having said this, I disagree with the comments made attacking John for his Christian beliefs and attacking Christians generally. Whilst I am a committed Humanist I believe there are good, practicing Christians around who do seek to follow the core teachings of the philosopher, known to the English speaking world, as Jesus. Ekklesia are an example of one group of liberal Christians who far from opposing special rights for the religious, have been at the forefront of pressing for zero religious opt outs and full human rights for gays. They have also pointed out to fellow Christians that much of the psuedo-Christian assertions made by the BNP are simply selective quotations from the Christian Right, albeit some demands such as the death penalty for gays, are strikingly similar to some of Stephen Green’s biblically orthodox demands. Note, Green’s beliefs ARE orthodox, albeit highly selective. I look forward to him demanding the death penalty for all adulterous heterosexuals too.
Steve, I have, as a former Christian, learned the hard way that Christians do not deserve respect simply because they happen sometimes to behave christianly. It’s not for us to have to understand or work out whether or not Williams or Sentamu are sincere, good people. All we can do is judge them on their acts and their words, or the lack of them. In this instance, condemning their failure to speak out about the proposed law in Uganda is perfectly correct. Since they are the two people at the head of the Anglican hierarchy, one can validly suppose that their behaviour is representative of their church (there appears by the way to be hardly any protest within their church itself against their silence) and therefore it is as valid to attack, viciously if necessary, their religion as they evidently feel it valid to remain silent when it is a question of our brothers and sisters in Uganda being put to death or imprisoned for life.
Steve, I’d also add that the churches ought to have learned from the 1930′s not to remain silent when minorities are persecuted in this way. There was a Holocaust (and not only of Jews) and the churches remained silent. The pope at that time is apparently now to be canonised – a saint, go figure!
The C of E archbishop of Uganda is most strangely silent. And I have found it impossible to obtain fresh information from any Ugandan source on this issue.
This is surely not the only item on the Ugandan Gov’t's agenda, but the basic fact remains that the State has no business in the bedrooms of the Nation.
It’s a Human Rights issue, first and foremost…or are there bishops in Uganda’s Senate as well.
What’s wrong with having sex with a gay minor?
My old BF used to come back from t’ pit covered in coaldust ready for a good seeing to most nights.
One or two points Harry: “in this country by going to Church non-homophobic Anglicans endorse what the Cof E endorses”. An argument that works only in England: In the rest of the country the Anglican Church is independent of the C of E, not state funded or aligned and in Scotland far more in sympathy with the US Anglicans than the Africans. I live in Scotland.
“The Church is just reflecting ingrained homophobia”. No,it suffers from more than that, I’d agree. Many of it’s members think that there are religious texts that require tham to be homophobic or reinforce their inherited or general homophobia – and the same certainly applies to Judaism, Islam and Buddhism. Some don’t and are trying to correct this and overcome this strong and active bastion of homophobia. But my experience of being part of local worshipping communities does help offset this (a bit). The congregation who sent sympathy cards to the gay parishoner whose partner died of a stroke – and were perfectly welcoming of his new partner when they got together 18 months later.Or the congregation which supported a trans woman who was a member when local yobs started attacking her home. Again, I won’t defend the indefensible but would point out there are some good people in Churches who deserve better than abuse.
Rose tinted spectacles? Probably, but it is my experience on the ground that not all Anglicans are blindly parroting the Archbishops line or that of the House of Bishops. What you say regarding the resistance to LGBT friendly legislation is true but I never claimed to be C of E and support it totally – I’m rather proud of being a Scottish Episcopalian!
If you want to have a peek at my blog it’s at http://www.dougalthink.blogspot.com
Continue to enjoy the Winterval!
The world will not come to an end if Countries like Uganda is run by Despots. Homosexuality will always have it’s opponents and for reasons only known outo themselves.
The Archbishop hardly spoke with any passion about this topic in 2009.
He seems to be much more concerned about the prospect of gay people being entitled to marry – http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/9045796/Dont-legalise-gay-marriage-Archbishop-of-York-Dr-John-Sentamu-warns-David-Cameron.html
Perhaps that’s why Peter Tatchell recently referred to Sentamu as the “Archbigot of York”