There you go. Catholics aren’t so terrible after all.
What a stupid comment Rose. With under 50% in favour does NOT make them good, for chrissakes!
Yes, but the prevailing opinion around these pages is that Catholics are all rosary clacking adherents to the Papal dogma with no thoughts of their own. This proves at least some of them are free thinking.
I was being mildly sarcastic in post one, by the way, Ken. But sarcasm isn’t easy to pull off in text!
I’ll bite. I actually agree that in the US there is a remarkable strain of liberalism in some Catholics and. Though how many of those are the sort of contemptible intellectually dishonest hypocrites who actually attend their services and show active support and how many have (very sensibly) stopped practising we do not know. The catholic church here, however, is our foremost enemy and those who attend its services are putting their loyalty to that institution before their loyalty to their LGBT brothers and sisters.
Harry, I take it that ‘here’ is the UK? Just to clarify. You really should come to the church I attend. The least hypocritical people there are the openly gay members of the congregation.
THis is because nearly half of NJ is either gay or in a straight marriage screwing gays.
“Here” indeed is the UK.
One of the principal religious enemies of gay rights in the UK is the Church of Rome. As I am sure you don’t need to tell you, the RC Church has opposed, normally with offensive and emotionally charged language, just about every piece of gay rights legislation this or any other Government has brought in. (Leave aside the dreadful things it has done in the US, such as supporting prop 8, and the evil it has done in Africa with its opposition to condoms.) Its catechism states explicitly that acts of gay sex, even in the context of a permanent and monogamous relationship, is ” … contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved.”
Gays are required on pain of mortal sin to be chaste.
What serious future for ordinary gays can there be in such a body? So far as I am concerned anyone that adheres by attending its services to a doctrinal body whose doctrine says that is not only a hypocrite but also a traitor.
I am sorry that you may feel that this is strong language – but there are plenty of Christian churches which are gay affirming, if you/they feel the need for religion in your life. I simply don;t understand why any gay should feel an affinity to the Roman church – unless maybe it is bound up in ethnicity, which is a topic for another day.
A Catholic can be as open and as thought-provoking as he wants; if it don’t toe the party line, ‘then ya ain’t a Catholic’ – “seemples..!”
Oder ‘einfach’ als wurd’ es sagen unser ganz beliebt’r Papst.
Roman Catholicism is not Primark; no “mix-’n match”, thank you.
You take what you are given in the true patriarchal way or you go hungry.
Eat it or do without.
Sister Jeannine Gramick and her oppo Father Robert Nugent found that out despite the huge volume of good work they did with (U.S.) homosexual souls.
As will Tony and his mate Annie ‘I-am-more-Catholic-than-the-Pope’ ..Blart & Widdy.
If Tone makes many more ‘suggestions’ to H.H. BXVI, he will find himself with so many, many, many, many, many decades of the Rosary to say that he will not be getting off his knees again in his lifetime…
If I remember my seminary daze correctly…yes I do mean ‘daze’ more of a ‘fug’ to be honest … I think the phrase for controversial points was ‘Nec discutandum nec loquandum…or summat along them there lines.
Is this a schism (U.S. style) I see before me..?
Wouldn’t be the first, now would it?
So they conducted a poll, in Noo Joyzee eh?
I bet H.H. BXVI is brickin’ it now..?
Don’t hold yer breath.
It will not make an iota of difference.
The Vatican has always taken heed of polls, yeah, right.!
2000 years and it has listened every step of the way, again, yeahhh..! .. right…!
Do me a favour.
My point exactly; the RCC is not PRIMARK.
But you put it more succinctly than I did.
To believe – or wish otherwise – is error.
This, as far as gays/homosexuals are concerned is truly the “narrow gate” of the N.T.
C’est “La Porte Etroite..” d’Andre Gide.
It is camels and needles.
In my mind, it brings into question the whole doctrine of FREE WILL and PRE-DESTINATION.
I am certainly no theologian; I much prefer frying fish and chips (beef-dripping only, used!!)
But I cannot beleeeeeve that a God could lumber a soul, at birth, with ‘homosexuality’ and tell that soul, as the RCC would have us beleeeeve, “Be un-chaste once, one wank, one rumble in the hay with another (male) and that’s you on the Bar-BQ for all eternity…”
It is as if He is saying,
“Yep.. you have free-will but I am going to be especially perverse in your case, nancy-boy, and make you homosexual.
Here’s this HUGE boulder (homosexuality).
Now carry it for 60/70/80 years.
Drop it once and your done.”
A God like that?
Enforced boulder-carrying… celibacy?
I don’t believe one like Him can possibly exist, Mr Ratzinger.
And if He does exist and I get the chance to spend eternity with Him, I think I’ll pass.
All that time spent with a pervy weirdo?
I look forward to any theologian addressing my concerns in a more educated manner and more professionally than I am able to set down here.
But until one comes along, I shall remain firmly on the other side of any church door with RCC on the lintel.
It is time for a re-think, Mr Vatican on the whole ‘human sexuality’ debate; high time.
This survey has no relevance to the spiritual thinking and behavior of the entire USA. There are a number of erroneous/skewed statements that show a false viewpoint about most Americans regarding their spiritual outlook and gay marriage.
1. So the state of New Jersey has shown that just under half are in favor of gay marriage – not truly and indication of the rest of the US. Those Northeastern states are far too liberals to be a true picture of the other parts of the US.
2. Among Catholics, 48 per cent supported gay marriage, while 40 per cent opposed it and 12 per cent were undecided.
3. Protestants held the opposite view, with only 34 per cent supporting and 55 per cent opposing gay marriage, and 11 per cent undecided.
About RC’s in general. I followed the RC religion in my early years but gave it up when I went to college. Later in years, I reevaluated my spiritual life and took a totally different approach and arrived at my present belief system.
(2) The biggest problems with RC followers – they aren’t directed/motivated to read the Bible regularly and study it for a deeper understanding of the Scriptures. I don’t remember ever being told to bring the Bible to services and follow what was being preached and then to go home and study the chapters more and see what other viewpoints were offered. Everything was controlled and directed by what the priest, the Vatican and the Pope said – nothing was expected to go beyond that.
A big mistake – once you start reading/studying the Bible with other Biblical scholars had to say after their 20-30 years of studying the ancient writings – many of whom could read/write/understand 5,6,7 ancient languages – far more than most of Vatican followers can do.
Eventually, a person sees there’s much more meaningful understanding of the Bible than RC’s are made aware of –they’re controlled/brainwashed to not go beyond the “RC thinking” — and consequently being relatively ignorant of the Scriptures themselves.
(3) Protestants are told to bring their Bibles to services – usually Wed. Night and Sat or Sun night and to follow along with the preacher/teacher reading the Scripture. Afterwards they’re told to study the lessons later in the week and home. And there are many Protestant scholars that have a variety of viewpoints that go deeper than what the preacher said. We’re encouraged to think about it all at deeper levels.
(4)As with several social issues, many Catholics support a more liberal public policy than does the church itself. “Given that Catholics comprise the single largest religious group in the state, this makes a difference in overall support for gay marriage in New Jersey, especially since a majority of Protestants – many of whom are evangelicals – oppose the bill.”
An huge difference as Protestants in general give a deeper meaning to their spiritual beliefs and behavior.
Viewing all this in a broader picture, this survey doesn’t carry much weight about the religious beliefs and views on marriage equality throughout the USA and the homosexual debate is far from being settled.
I am a Roman Catholic and I do not mind gay people So whats with all the abuse to us catholics for?
Its the evangellical and protestant christians who are the bible bashing gay haters
We as catholics do not hate gays nor gay rights
I understand the catholic church and the vatican has made statements in the past that have deeply offended gay people and I can asure you all not all catholics share that offensive view
For everyones information there majority of gay bashers who commit these dreadful hate crimes are actually secluar atheists
Just ignore Hank. He’s anti-Catholic AND homophobic. Like I said, pay him no mind.
“I understand the catholic church and the vatican has made statements in the past that have deeply offended gay people and I can asure you all not all catholics share that offensive view..”
You and many other Catholics may not “share that offensive view” but if you disagree with the ‘ex cathedra’ pronouncement that homosexual acts “are objectively disordered, regardless of context or intention” CARDINAL RATZINGER – then you are at variance with Church teaching and hence not ‘in communion’.
Furthermore, homosexual people are “more or less intrinsically inclined to moral evil…” again, CARDINAL RATZINGER.
Id est…gays have a propensity to evil.
The teaching on homosexual acts is an infallible ‘ex-cathedra’ pronouncement because the pope is speaking on a ‘matter of [faith or] morals’
You need to be quite clear on that in order even to continue with the practice of your faith in accordance with the precepts of the RCC and in order to be in full communion.
You are (can only be) a Catholic in accordance with Catholic teaching not according to what suits you or what you agree with; Catholicism is not a local social club.
The RCC is not the Church of St. Wishy-Washy; it is not PRIMARK where you can pick and mix your garb to bolster your mood.
I am glad you are a Catholic; I wish you well; I wish that I did not have the stumbling block that I have.
But I am gladder that I dumped it all 50 years ago and even gladder than that, in that I have never felt one tremble that I “should go back”
They have got this homosexuality thing wrong, wrong, wrong and much else besides in the field of human sexuality.
And on that basis, I rejected it (my faith).
Hey Bishop Ioan, you said, “Just ignore Hank. He’s anti-Catholic AND homophobic. Like I said, pay him no mind.”
Ioan…you’re wrong on both accounts. I see where the RC church has wandered away from much of the faithful practices of Jesus Christ and the early teachings fo Christianity and it’s doing a great disservice to its believers. Also, I’m not homophobic, I’m “sinphobic” in my spiritual belief system. God loves and will accept any and all sinners if they give up their sinful life and follow His behavior as offered in the Holy Bible.
I can’t see where Jesus Christ would approve and join in with the Vatican and the Pope as to their directing their followers. The Bible doesn’t show where RC beliefs would be the religious beliefs Jesus preached then or would preach now.
If you view :www.religioustolerance.org you’ll see a multitude of examples of comparing Roman Catholicism with the conservative wing of Protestantism and why I don’t follow RC:
In the 16th century, during the Protestant Reformation, many faith groups split away from the Roman Catholic Church. Some beliefs of the Roman Catholic church and conservative Protestant denominations are in opposition to each other.
Examples are: The acceptance of the theory of evolution by the Catholic church, and the continuing rejection by most conservative Protestants.
The acceptance of homosexual sexual orientation — but not same-sex behavior — as morally neutral by the Catholic Church, but not by many conservative Protestants.
The rejection of the death penalty by the Catholic church, and the continuing acceptance and promotion by most conservative Protestants.
Catholics place ultimate interpretive authority in the Pope and Magesterium. Conservative Protestants place it with the individual Christian and his/her interpretation of the Bible.
Catholics teach that the bread and wine during the mass becomes the actual body, blood, soul and divinity of Jesus. Protestants generally regard the two components as symbolic of Jesus’ body and blood.
The gap between the two groups appears to be increasing over time. Future reunification of the Christian religion appears impossible and more enlightened believers will turn to the various Protestant denominations for spiritual strength and guidance
To Anthony: you may be a Catholic and you may not hate gay people, but you are a member of an institution which, not “in the past” but this very day, this very year, has actively campaigned against gay rights, ranging from anti-discrimination laws, through the civil partnerships legislation (it was the Catholic church in particular which was adamant at the “need” to restrict marriage as opposed to CP to straight persons and it is the Catholic church, today, which is threatening legal action against the RoI CP bill). If you are an active member of that church you are endorsing the doctrine I quoted in my post to Rose above. Or you are a hypocrite.
I yield to no-one in my detestation of the bible bashing evangelical Christians – and of the Islamic equivalents. But the Catholic church is no better.
To Rose: I would be genuinely interested to hear your response to post #8.
48% of catholics support gay marriage. 40% oppose it. 12% are undecided.
34% of protestant support gay marriage. 55% oppose it. 11% are undecided.
56% of jews support gay marriage. 40% oppose it. 4% are undecided.
85% of non-believers support gay marriage; 10% oppose it. 5% are undecided.
The conclusion is quite clear.
Belief in ‘god’ encourages bigotry.
To sum up:
“The (New Jersey) state’s Senate was due to vote on a gay marriage bill today but this has stalled after Democrats said they wanted to strengthen support.
There are fears they do not have the 21 votes needed to pass it.
The (gay marriage) bill will now be debated in the Assembly Judiciary Committee, where support for gay marriage is said to be stronger. A date has not yet been scheduled.
Supporters hope it can return to the Senate for a vote before this legislative session ends. Governor-elect Chris Christie takes over in late January and has made his opposition to gay marriage clear.”
That such a large percentage of so-called catholics support the same-sex bill in Jersey is interesting; that the population of New Jersey elected a governor, Chris Christie, who is against the bill, is equally, if not more interesting.
However, news of this survey (of catholics, etc.) did not make the headlines of America’s most distinguished independent catholic newspaper, National Catholic Reporter.
Major news items in the “American Catholic Church” (m-m, it does have a certain ring to it) focused on the fact that the world’s emerging economies are pressing for deeper carbon cuts at Copenhagen; that a Seattle pastor has begun efforts to review new missal translations (he would like to slow down the move); that Regina Weissert, a veteran Catholic peacemaker is reaching out to Muslim women; and that Obama’s Nobel speech reveals a humble and thoughtful president who combines realism and idealism in America’s foreign policy.
The fact remains, as Keith has pointed out above, that even if 100% of catholics in New Jersey, in the States, in the World were to pronounce themselves in favor of gay marriage, I seriously doubt that lay catholics could influence the official teachings of the RCC one iota.
This story simply states that the same-sex marriage bill in New Jersey is in danger of being rejected because the governor is known to be against it. Ergo, I see more demonstrations in front of the governor’s mansion to kick off the christmas season.
Nice try, Hank; you’ll just have to find another thread to disrupt.
NJ committee approves gay marriage bill:
@Hank: “Protestants are told to bring their Bibles to services – usually Wed. Night and Sat or Sun night and to follow along with the preacher/teacher reading the Scripture. Afterwards they’re told to study the lessons later in the week and home.”
Which denomination does this apply to? I have encountered this only in 2 very small Protestant denominations, and it wasn’t universally applied amongst them. I’m not a mainstream Christian, and have real difficulty in using the label “Christian” for myself as I’m not sure where I stand, but I agree with you that really examining the Bible – including reading around the cultures and beliefs of the times in which it was written and compiled, and the way in which theology has evolved – provides a richer spirituality and far less inclination to judge. Personal experience leads me to believe that the people who simply accept what they’re told rather than genuinely engage with their religion on a deep level are more likely to have a need for security, rigid rules, narrow thinking, and black and white world view – in other words, ignorance is the root of fundamentalism (which, I think, applies to all belief systems, religious or otherwise).
Hank The Pole-cat Homophobic Anti-Christ is back I see!
AN ANTI HANK ALLIANCE IS CALLED FOR ON THE THREADS SHE IS CONTAMINATING THE BITCH!
Hey Anon, you asked, “Which denomination does this apply to? I have encountered this only in 2 very small Protestant denominations, and it wasn’t universally applied amongst them.
You’re correct…even among denominations, there’s a huge variety of preaching – many preachers/teachers are not well versed in giving out meaningful messages.
If you want to challenge your spiritual walk, look into these sites – you’ll find strong, meaningful views by some of the greatest Christian teachers. It takes effort to find what satisfies your intellectual needs.
Yes Hank, and did you know that nearly half of New Jersey Catholics support gay marriage?
Yes JPB, I’m aware of what’s going on in the Catholic churches as
well as with Episcopalian churches in the USA. This is a major
problem that doesn’t have a simple solution.
Being a Fundamental Bible believer, I’m studying/searching all the
possible options the Bible offers.
Hank the Fundy crank strikes again!
Yes its back to the Drawing Board for the Funfamentalist ugly-bugs on this one, and HOW!
Instead of making meaningless remarks about me, why don’t you
pose some serious questions so we can discuss our differences.
Just because you’re an atheist doesn’t mean we can’t argue
serious problems — secular, spiritual, philosophical and
sociological, psychological , etc. , because I’m sure
neither of us has all the answers, and discussions and debates
are some things intelligent beings do to resolve or understand issues.
Yes, but Hank, Hank, Hey Hank, nearly half of New Jersey Catholics support gay marriage?
How’d ya like to spend to christmas with us here on PinkNews threads? Love to have ya, cause we’re so-o inclusive. Just ask MC!
I’ll only agree to discuss anything with you if you come out as Gay as you obviously are to us? Otherwise what the hell are you doing gettig your jollies off on PINK NEWS?
To JPB and Brian, regarding the comment:
“Hey Hank, I’ll only agree to discuss anything with you if you come out as Gay as you obviously are to us? Otherwise what the hell are you doing gettig your jollies off on PINK NEWS? “
My answer is, “I ‘ve never had a homosexual experience, never had a desire to do so, as I think the female body and mystique offers everything I desire and can handle.”
But what fascinates me about the homosexual criticisms towards me when I make comments on Pinknews, is that everybody assumes and tries to direct anything that I say as a “closet gay” response.
When they do that, I’m trying to figure out is it because homosexuals are expressing some sort of guilt and trying to relieve some psychologically hidden unfavorable self feelings by associating any/most heterosexuals as being untrue to their deep feelings?
I’ve been studying some of my psychology books and I’m wondering if perhaps people like you are honestly internally fighting social standards about what represents right and wrong using some of the psychological defense mechanisms such as: repression, projection, displacement, reaction formation, regression, rationalization, identification.
Some of the above psychological mechanisms seem to give me answers as to responses/criticisms directed towards my comments and reading Pinknews.
For me, reading the Pinknews articles and comments gives me interesting insight into homosexual behavior and the actions of through people’s comments – so don’t try to read anything negatively hidden in my thinking, behavior or lifestyle. But do keep posting on this site as it’s almost like taking a college course in sexual behavior.
Also, I’m familiar with psychological study topics, such as “Is homophobia an indicator of latent homosexuality” and “Is homophobia associated with homosexual arousal?” from Abnormal Psychology. 1996. etc. Where 2 groups of men showed similar patterns of increased physiological arousal in response to the heterosexual video and the lesbian videos. In contrast, the groups responded differently to the video depicting male homosexual activity, with the homophobic men showing significantly more arousal than the nonhomophopic men.
The investigators acknowledge that a great deal of additional research is needed and they conclude that their findings are consistent with they hypothesis that homophobia reflects defensive reactions to latent homosexual impulses. (This seems like pushing Freud’s theory to the extreme)
These types of studies focus attention on homophobia, which is a significant social problem that fuels hatred and intolerant of gays, which sometimes translates into hate crimes.
So, Brain, JPB, I’m well aware of what kinds of feelings, behavior and reactions can be involved in dealing with homosexuality, and I stand against violence against homosexuals, and also that I do not hold any kind of latent homosexuality – regardless how much you people would like to attribute that to me – sorry to disappoint you and others
Hank: Being gay is entirely ok.
If your ‘god’ doesn’t accept it then your ‘god’ is a c*** and you need to find a new one.
Yes, and nearly half of New Jersey Catholics support gay marriage; and you figure this is as good a time as any to grab the spotlight for your christmas cameo appearance on PinkNews, eh Hank.
Naw, we don’t mind you disrupting our threads; go ahead and spill your guts out. We may not listen or read you, but do carry on.
A gay catholic? A gay catholic! A homosexual roman catholic? Oh my…there goes the theme song:
What kind of an inherently evil human being would contradict the “natural” way? A gay catholic; now I’ve seen everything!
And a merry, merry christmas to you, Hank, in the very best British tradition:
Hey gang….I’m still waiting for some topics, questions, etc.
that we can discuss — I enjoy mental/intellectural challenges
so let’s hear from you.
And a very Merry Christmas to you all also — may the spirit
of Christ be with you during the season.
Did you know that nearly half of New Jersey Catholics support gay marriage?
This doesn’t surprise me. The accession to the throne of St Peter of a Counter-Reformation militant has only served to highlight the scizophrenia of modern Catholicism, particularly in the West. In part it’s generated by a tradition that accepts ‘ongoing revelation’ – on condition that only a bunch of old guys in frocks define what it is. It’s also down to the fact that every Pope since Vatican II has tried to stuff the genie back into the bottle – to no avail. Still, I’m glad the New Jersey RCs are on board – as well as the others.
Hey JPB, Simon and Brian. I have a question that I’ve never
heard handled by any psychiatris — perhaps you can give me
Since you keep saying that many heterosexuals who read and comment
on this site are latent homosexuals (I’ve seen this dozens of times)
Well, can you discuss how many homosexuals are latent heterosexuals? Interesting question isn’t it? Please
feel free to comment even though you’re not psychiatrists –
I’d enjoy reading your theories.
Have you heard the news: Nearly half of New Jersey Catholics support gay marriage. Imagine that!
Well, if you don’t want to talk about the issues, why bother posting, innit. Cheez.
Hey JPB…you said…
“Well, if you don’t want to talk about the issues, why bother posting, innit. Cheez”
What’s the issue? You stated a fact from the survey…and that’s
it…no big issue in that. I’ll take it at face value.
But now…let’s get into something worthwhile with my question/issue which was Comment #40:
“Well, can you discuss how many homosexuals are latent heterosexuals? Interesting question isn’t it?”
Hank: You ask:
“Since you keep saying that many heterosexuals who read and comment on this site are latent homosexuals (I’ve seen this dozens of times). Well, can you discuss how many homosexuals are latent heterosexuals?”
No I can’t.
That is not the topic being discussed.
YOU are the person bringing the subject up so, I’d prefer if you explained why you bring this up?
Explain your question please?
Yes, but why do nearly half of New Jersey Catholics support gay marriage?
Hey Simon,, JPB…regardiing your comments/questions:
Simon comments :”Well, can you discuss how many homosexuals are latent heterosexuals?”
No I can’t.
That is not the topic being discussed.
YOU are the person bringing the subject up so, I’d prefer if you explained why you bring this up?”
Explain your question please?
My comment: FIRST, because the support of gay marriage by NJ Catholics is a boring topic and my question has more potential for serious discussion/controversy
SECOND: the sexual drive in humans is a powerful part of life and warrants discussion for a better understanding of mankind. (Isn’t that something that many of comments on this site are concerned about?)
So, if you people think that many heterosexuals who visit this site are latent homosexuals (as often expressed)….my question is let’s talk about how many homosexuals are latent heterosexuals – I think that’s a valid question even if it’s not the major topic of this article –so do you have a view about my question?
JPB…you asked, “Hank….Yes, but why do nearly half of New Jersey Catholics support gay marriage
My comment: Because a huge number of Catholics don’t read the Bible and don’t know what’s inside it. I’ve seen Catholic services and nobody brings their Bible with them – so I wouldn’t give much to how scripturally informed many Catholics are.
They are becoming more liberal in many areas of their thinking and don’t represent Christianity as they should if they were Bible-readers. Who really cares what a small group of people believe in one state in the USA. New Jersey is not representative of the USA and the survey doesn’t tell us much about millions of Americans. More important is what the other 49 states have to offer
Hey JPB….just another comment that I offer.
I saw your comment on the following article:
“Poll suggests almost half of Americans believe being gay is a choice”
Comment by Jean-Paul Bentham — December 18, 2009
“Which means that more than half of the Americans surveyed (1,000 people, really, call that a survey?) believe being gay is natural.”
My Comment: That goes to show you that I also don’t give much credence on the NJ Catholic gay support article. Rather empty meaning to such a minor survey.
Hey Hank Sweetie,
Come out of the closset you silly, silly person and be your true self….A Homosexual? You will feel better for it in the end!
Hey Brian: Still using your meaningless comments I see.
But, please tell me. How many homosexuals are latent heterosexuals? Would you care to guess?