University cancels speech by homophobic Islamic cleric Tweet Email 24th November 2009, 7:07 PM Last updated on 26th November Jessica Geen, PinkNews.co.uk Back to article Post your comment Comments on this article are now closed. Reader comments Rose 24 Nov 2009, 7:24pm There isn’t much difference between this guy’s hatred of gays, ex-muslims and women and the American Catholic bishops who hate gays, co-habiters and practicers of contraception except the bishops didn’t want to throw them off a mountain! What are these people ON! 0 Reply the.kitty.channel 24 Nov 2009, 7:25pm “If I was to turn around and I was to call homosexuals perverted, dirty filthy dogs that should be murdered, that’s my freedom of speech isn’t it?” No it isn’t, it’s incitement to homophobic violence. Silly, and dangerous, man. 0 Reply Brian Burton 24 Nov 2009, 7:46pm “Oh! You Infadels your Blood will flow!!!” Yea! Yea! Yea! and up yours Too matey! 0 Reply JohnK 24 Nov 2009, 7:56pm Leaves me speechless . . . at least UCL has refrained from tarnishing its reputation by spurious association with this man. Which is more than can be said about City University . . . 0 Reply Robert, ex pat Brit 24 Nov 2009, 8:19pm Can you imagine if gays advocated for the killing of homophobes? The uproar would be deafening and probably would receive a rebuke from whoever occupies number 10. Is this idiot aware of the new hate speech law? Oh I forgot, [they're] exempt for now, above the law. So much for democracy…NOT! 0 Reply John Torrell 24 Nov 2009, 8:59pm Advocating the death and humiliation of any human being, a homosexual or not can never be condoned by any moral code on this planet! Believing that homosexuality is wrong is fair and part of this country’s rich culture and tradition of freedom of speech and civil liberties. If Abu Usamah felt that homosexuality is wrong and expressed himself a little more gracefully without having mentioned ‘throw them off a cliff’, i think he has every right to say that? No? 0 Reply Anon 24 Nov 2009, 9:12pm As Abu Usamah said, his comments were taken out of context and he was giving an example of when saying something can be inappropriate, but Channel 4 took what he said was inappropriate and displayed it as appropriate. If he really had said that, you think he will still be allowed to walk the streets of the UK? Next time, before making allegations, do some RESEARCH, and don’t take everything the media says. 0 Reply Iris 24 Nov 2009, 9:51pm He also appears to believe women are ‘wrong’… And, no, personally, I don’t think he should be able to say that. Criticising someone for who they are is illogical, pointless and ignorant. Good for UCl for cancelling his appearance. 0 Reply Iris 24 Nov 2009, 9:52pm *UCL 0 Reply Tony Konrath 24 Nov 2009, 10:11pm “If Abu Usamah felt that homosexuality is wrong and expressed himself a little more gracefully without having mentioned ‘throw them off a cliff’, i think he has every right to say that? No?” Well, not just by itself. He has to bear the consequences of such speech. If it results in harm to others, even psychological harm, then we as a community have the right to go against him through legal, social and financial action. Take him to court, ostracize him and fine him. 0 Reply Tigra 07 24 Nov 2009, 10:36pm How can you take those comments out of context?! Dumb man, how can he think so much of himself that he looks down on everyone else How can he come to another country and tell them how to live as uncivilised dickheads? Go home Abu Osama! 0 Reply Keith 24 Nov 2009, 10:46pm Adverse comments about homosexual persons? Adverse comments about women, too? Wonder what HIS problem is, as if I didn’t know. “Yer shoutin’ too loudly, Mr. Abu Wossyerface..and while yer shoutin’ you’ve dropped yer clouts, haven’t noticed it and we can all see what YOU are wearin’..!” Keith. 0 Reply Keith 24 Nov 2009, 10:49pm Usamah…Osama…? No, Can’t be..?! Can it..? Maybe a “rose by any other name…” still stinks..? Keith 0 Reply John Torrell 24 Nov 2009, 11:11pm just trying to be fair here guys, but surely he has the right to express his views? Its what makes this country special to me. Just as we have the right to respond in a civilised and constructive habit. We must preserve freedom of speech even if it goes against our sensitivities. safeguard it for it is this same tradition that allowed gays rights in their first place? And lets be fair to Abu Usamah too guys, he never said women are ‘wrong’? and when he said that women are ‘deficient’ – I saw his clarification on that point on (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=20wq6gCpgb4&feature=related). read it if we’re to be fair and academic in this civilised 21stC, cos its what makes this country what it is and I for one dont want to let it be jeopardised 0 Reply Coemgenus 25 Nov 2009, 12:34am Oh dear, yet another god-obsessed windbag whistling up a storm making death threats about groups of people he bizarrely thinks are an easy target. He needs to enter the present century, get a reality check and start ducking – I suspect things won’t be quietening down for a bit. PS. Silly man – was he wearing that dress in England? Silly man. 0 Reply Richard 25 Nov 2009, 1:59am Why don’t all of these religious freaks just f**k off? Life’s too short, they should focus on something positive and stop spewing hate everywhere. 0 Reply Jean-Paul Bentham 25 Nov 2009, 3:36am ‘A statement from City University following the November 4th talk said: “Our Islamic Society applied to our student union for permission to host Abu Usamah through the normal procedures.”‘ What does that tell us about the “Islamic Society” of City University? 0 Reply A_Amir 25 Nov 2009, 5:47am I’m Muslim and I’m Queer… There is no such thing as killing ex-Muslims and gays in Islam… These people are waaaaaaayyy over their head. Him (Abu Usamah) and as well as the government of Iran (for executing gays) should be condemned!! 0 Reply Rich 25 Nov 2009, 8:23am In life there must be a balance in everything, good and evil. Now the UCL is looking at the evil side. 0 Reply J Carter 25 Nov 2009, 9:54am He needs to get back to his cave. 0 Reply Thomas 25 Nov 2009, 10:03am Before we rush to congratulate UCL for its forward thinking in cancelling this odious preacher of hatred and ignorance, if this article tells the whole story UCL cancelled his appearance not because of what he represents but merely because they didn’t want any trouble on their campus, trotting out the old health & safety concerns excuse thereby neatly side-stepping any need for a more laudable and principled stand against this evil monster. UCL should have issued a statement condemning Usamah’s inhuman views and making it clear they are contrary to the values of the university (and indeed of any civilised democracy), as no doubt they would have done had a BNP speaker with similar views as Usamah toward gay people been inivited. Instead it seems they took the wimps way out. 0 Reply George 25 Nov 2009, 10:41am As an alumni of UCL, I will be writing to to UCL to request that unless action is taken on allowing this idiot a platform, that the university’s alumni society remove my name & details from their records and that they refrain from sending me any further correspondence. Incidentally, most of the emails I receive from them are requests to donate to UCL to aid their funding of research projects. Well, I will be making no more such donations, I don’t want one single penny of my hard-earned money to go towards them if they are happy to invite a speaker who espouses hate-speech…that’s well beyond freedom of speech, it is an abuse of it. 0 Reply james 25 Nov 2009, 10:44am not being funny, but rather than being macho and opening up a pandora’s box here behind our laptops, why dont we allow abu usamah to come down and voice our concerns there in front of his face rather than relying on some underhand journalism. Thats if we’re ‘man’ enough if you catch my drift? Let’s see what HE has to say for himself? only fair and his legal right to be heard. Surely that would be more laudable and principled well done UCL for not hurrying any impetuous statement of condemnation without reviewing the investigation thoroughly. 0 Reply George 25 Nov 2009, 10:44am EDIT: If the reports of UCL cancelling this guy’s speech are indeed true, I might write an angry letter to them instead of the ‘cancelling’ of my alumni communications with them. UCL has one of the best LGBT societies of all UK universities, I hope they’ve made their voice loud & clear in this issue. 0 Reply Iris 25 Nov 2009, 10:44am “And lets be fair to Abu Usamah too guys, he never said women are ‘wrong’? and when he said that women are ‘deficient’ – I saw his clarification on that point on (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=20wq6gCpgb4&feature=related).” Oh, right. He was just repeating the Koran then, so that makes it OK. And by ‘deficient’ he was referring to the fact that it takes two female witnesses in a court to equal one man. Lovely. Nothing nasty or unfair about that then… 0 Reply Harvey 25 Nov 2009, 10:50am This man has no business living here and spout this hatred for all it seems. If he feels this way why doesn’t he just move. He has no place in a British multi-cultural society and should be removed. 0 Reply Harvey 25 Nov 2009, 11:22am Whilst I do disagree with the BNP Thomas they don’t hold a similiar view towards gay people being slaughtered. They think we should be excluded from society granted. Keep it behind closed door whatever that means coz unless ya up the heath most of us do. This man sadly plays right into the BNP arms though which with their slight rise at the moment does’t do any favours. 0 Reply Simon Murphy 25 Nov 2009, 12:17pm No 14: John Torrell: “just trying to be fair here guys, but surely he has the right to express his views?” Of course not. He is advocating the violent murder of homosexuals. My life is worth more than his free speech. When you incite murder you lose your freedom of speech. Contact the City University demanding the resignation of the Vice-Chancellor Julius Weinberg who seems to have ignored requests to have this speech cancelled. I wonder would Weinberg allow a BNP fascist to speak at his university? The City University need to be inundated with complaints: http://www.city.ac.uk/enquiries/ 0 Reply Simon Murphy 25 Nov 2009, 12:18pm Or call them: City University London Northampton Square London EC1V 0HB Tel: +44 (0)20 7040 5060 0 Reply Bishop Ioan 25 Nov 2009, 12:57pm I think moderate, sensible Muslims, like A_Amir need to get together and make it clear that this man is not one of them. He is a virulent homophobe and speaks of people being murdered just for who they are. People like this imam need to get into the civilised 21st Century or go back to whatever Islamist hellhole he crawled out of. 0 Reply Natt 25 Nov 2009, 1:00pm The invitation of this odious man to UCL/City is indicative of the kind of moral relativism that is polluting educational establishments. 0 Reply nuriboy 25 Nov 2009, 2:31pm Going to complain to city university. This thug ruins islam for everyone. 0 Reply Cleggy 25 Nov 2009, 2:41pm David Camron has just alienated 2.4 million voting Muslims in the UK with his words today in Parliament! And this is evidence of him pandering to “his” extremist links in Europe! http://tinyurl.com/ykwfum4 0 Reply Cleggy 25 Nov 2009, 2:57pm Well done everybody: http://z6.co.uk/4rgfm3 0 Reply Iris 25 Nov 2009, 3:08pm “People like this imam need to get into the civilised 21st Century or go back to whatever Islamist hellhole he crawled out of. ” He has what sounds like an American accent and Wikipedia lists his place of birth as New Jersey. I wish moderates in all religions would speak up quickly to disown anyone with fundamentalist ideas. Nice to read A_Amir’s words above. 0 Reply flapjack 25 Nov 2009, 3:18pm Interesting to measure the volume of complaints about Jan Moir’s recent article in the Daily mail versus the complaints about Abu Usamah’s appearances. Jan Moir talks about the “Happy ever after myth of civil partnerships” and there’s 20,000 complaints. This guy wants to throw us all of a cliff and gets about a thousand, tops. Are our priorities out of whack or what? Cultural sensitivity should be a two way street, and the sooner he realises that the better for all of us. 0 Reply Tigra 07 25 Nov 2009, 3:42pm “just trying to be fair here guys, but surely he has the right to express his views? Its what makes this country special to me. Just as we have the right to respond in a civilised and constructive habit.” How stupid are you John Torrel? People like this do not deserve to be defended If you think hes such a misinterpreted guy then go and visit him and get to know him better, you never know, he just might be a lovely guy under all that hate, sexism, homophobia and ignorance And in future it might be worth remembering there is a big line between free speech and hate speech 0 Reply Harvey 25 Nov 2009, 3:52pm Guess the difference between Jan Moir and this story flapjack is that Jan Moir wrote her drivel in a Daily Rag for all to see. I doubt very much this story will get the same national coverage. Maybe that should be the question, why won’t it get the coverage. It should do so that maybe then people can make the appropiate complaints. 0 Reply 21stCenturySpirituality 25 Nov 2009, 4:26pm Why is this man even aloud to stay in this country? 0 Reply 21stCenturySpirituality 25 Nov 2009, 4:31pm Ive used the wrong aloud there havent I? DUH! I mean why is this man even allowed to stay in this country 0 Reply Jean-Paul Bentham 25 Nov 2009, 4:51pm Great comments by eveyone. All I can do is repeat my post 17: ‘A statement from City University following the November 4th talk said: “Our Islamic Society applied to our student union for permission to host Abu Usamah through the normal procedures.”‘ What does that tell us about the “Islamic Society” of City University? Comment by Jean-Paul Bentham — November 25, 2009 @ 3:36 The “Islamic Society” of City University invited this hate-monger to speak there. I think the “Islamic Society” owes us an explanation…now. It’s good to see that more and more of us are learning the difference between Islam and sharia law….although I do remain an agnostic. 0 Reply Martin 25 Nov 2009, 4:55pm We need to limit the influx of these people until we’ve found a way to make them understand democracy and human rights. It has nothing to do with racism – it has to do with remaining free societies. Homophobia exists – Islamophobia does not exist – it is an expression invented by fundamentalists to avoid critisism and limit freedom of speech and thus they use the language of the oppressed. Muslims are not oppressed – Islam is an enormous power in the world – the second largest religion in the world. Remember the survey that showed that not a single British muslim accepts homosexuality? We need to limit the influx of these people until they understand democracy. 0 Reply Simon Murphy 25 Nov 2009, 5:06pm “I think moderate, sensible Muslims, like A_Amir need to get together and make it clear that this man is not one of them. ” Agreed. Does anyone know if ANY muslim organisation has condemned this Usamah pig’s attendance at the City University. Has the Muslim Council of Britain condemned him? It seems to me that ‘moderate’, mainstream muslim groups find it VERY difficult (or simply don’t want to) condemn other muslims – even when they are fascist pigs like Usamah. 0 Reply Jean-Paul Bentham 25 Nov 2009, 5:44pm Very good point. Moderate Muslims can and will be seen as accomplices to extremists unless they denounce them loud and clear. Maybe moderate Muslims in the UK also need to learn the freedoms of speech they have at their dsiposition. And if they are afraid to speak, they should tell us that too. 0 Reply Robert, ex pat Brit 25 Nov 2009, 6:01pm I wonder how Julius Weinberg, a Jew, would have reacted had this islamic ingrate called for the killing of Jews? I’m damned sure he would have spoken out loud and clear against him. Of all people, Jews should know better. 0 Reply Andrew 25 Nov 2009, 6:19pm Revolting man. He shouldn’t even be allowed in the country. 0 Reply Andrew 25 Nov 2009, 6:21pm I would also like to add that he is probably on a high level of state benefits that LGBT pay for through their taxes as well. These extremist Muslim clerics usually are. 0 Reply JohnK 25 Nov 2009, 8:06pm I am getting very disturbed by this ongoing theme that “Some Muslim Groups” think they have an automatic right to invite extremist people to speak at their puplic gatherings who continue to call for the slaughter of LGBT people. Something needs to be done . . . perhaps we can think about this in “MY” space section of this site. http://my.pinknews.co.uk/ 0 Reply Jean-Paul Bentham 25 Nov 2009, 8:51pm Good idea, JohnK. I wish nuriboy (32) and Harvey (38) would join us there. Just sign in as new members and we’ll find you! http://my.pinknews.co.uk/ 0 Reply Andrew 25 Nov 2009, 8:59pm Couldn’t agree more with John K. 0 Reply Ramón 25 Nov 2009, 10:50pm In relative terms, it wasn’t that long ago that this man’s forebears were captured, shipped to global markets, whipped into submission and denied human status, or were even frequently classified only as a commodity by his Muslim and Christian masters. One would think that after centuries of kidnap, rape, degradation, humiliation and denial of basic human rights, a man of his ilk would have learned to be distrustful of his master’s superstitions and possibly learned something of what religious repression does to the human condition. What this homunculus fails to recognize is that to Arabs and Europeans, he’s merely the shuffling yes-man that they so closely associate with his race. Passing on the hate doesn’t elevate his stature one bit. 0 Reply Rahman 25 Nov 2009, 11:54pm Allahu Akbar! Perfect imam! His speach is like fire, his mind like diamond! 0 Reply Ramón 26 Nov 2009, 12:07am “Allahu Akbar! Perfect imam! His speach is like fire, his mind like diamond!” A fire can give warmth and light, but it also can destroy even the innocent. “his mind like diamond” – hard, impenetrable, and valuable only to the greedy; otherwise it remains only a rock. 0 Reply Rahman 26 Nov 2009, 12:08am Insha’Allah, we live in free society and my Muslim brothers can form own Islamic societies and speak out as God told us to speak. Homosexuals are not obligated to hear any noble Imam, nor they have the power to prohibit any noble Imam to speak the God’s words between us, Muslim brothers. 0 Reply Jean-Paul Bentham 26 Nov 2009, 12:35am Rahman: Welcome to PinkNews. Have a seat and make yourself comfortable. We’ll be with you shortly. Can we presume that you are a member of the University’s “Islamic Society”? 0 Reply Jean-Paul Bentham 26 Nov 2009, 12:53am Rahman: Just a simple question: how do you differentiate between free speech and inciting violence? For example, are they both legal in the UK? 0 Reply Rahman 26 Nov 2009, 12:55am Salam. I think noble Imam told the truth that some homosexuals take his words out of context from his past speech. He is not homophobic at all. Islam is much more tolerant religion then Judaism or Christianity in relation to homosexuals because in the Holy Koran we do not have principle to kill all homosexuals. God told us to forgive some homosexuals who are sorry for their misdeeds. But some homosexuals, who are persistent in their misdeeds and who are nasty, who systematically disrespect all Muslims and all God’s laws, shall be subject of punishment. God did not said they should be killed. I am sure a reasonable fine would be sufficient punishment. As history indicates, we can have various types of Shariah, and we don’t need in modern times any judge with mentality of 7th century warrior Muslim. I personally do not see all homosexuals as my enemies. No, not at all. Some homosexuals are really nice and intelligent persons, and it is pleasure to discuss various issues with them. Unfortunately, some homosexuals are very aggressive and disrespectful to Muslims and our Noble Riligion, and this caused many very sad events. Salam to everybody. 0 Reply Simon Murphy 26 Nov 2009, 1:06am And Rahman. Tell me about Mohammed? He married a 9 year old in the Koran did he not? Isn’t Mohammed therefore a dirty child molester? 0 Reply Simon Murphy 26 Nov 2009, 1:12am Rahman: “Unfortunately, some homosexuals are very aggressive and disrespectful to Muslims and our Noble Riligion, ” Yes but Abu Usamah is a dirty pig. He said “Take that homosexual man. . .and throw him off the mountain. . . If I was to turn around and I was to call homosexuals perverted, dirty filthy dogs that should be murdered, that’s my freedom of speech isn’t it?” He is a stupid @sshole and he disrespects everybody. If he is a good muslim then I think that islam is rubbish! 0 Reply Rahman 26 Nov 2009, 1:16am Respectful Jean-Paul Bentham! I never heard in any Mosque any incitement to violence. Therefore, I don’t know what it actually is. I don’t trust to declarations governmental islamophobes from the U.S. or British government about “incitement” to violence in any Muslim community. In any Holy Mosque any noble Imam speaking in accordance to Holy Koran — it is just impossible that any noble Imam would speak something opposite — and therefore his speech are free and protected by any reasonable government. Our Imams generally speaking to Muslims, and their purpose – clarification of God’s words in context of their sermons. That’s very simple, as I think. I think Mr. P. Tatchell are exeggerating the matter due his ignorance about Islam, and due his very usual obsessive hate toward Muslim world in which he never lived, never experienced and never comptrehended. Actually I feeel great sorry for him because he spoken so many wrong words and made so many incorrect accusations against innocent Muslims. Salam. 0 Reply Jean-Paul Bentham 26 Nov 2009, 1:21am Rahman: I repeat: Just a simple question: how do you differentiate between free speech and inciting violence? For example, are they both legal in the UK? 0 Reply Jean-Paul Bentham 26 Nov 2009, 1:26am Rahman: Thank you. I’m afraid I have made some mistakes too concerning Islam. We are not as familiar with it as you are. Could you explain, for example, why so many of us homosexuals believe we are hated by Jihadists Moslems? 0 Reply Rahman 26 Nov 2009, 1:27am Respectful people, I am very sorry, but I cannot respond on questions which made in offensive way for my Faith and which targeting the Holy Prophet (peace be with him) with very uncultured words and expressions. We are living in the cultural world and not in the prison, and, therefore, we need to be respectful to religious Leaders of the world and to all sincere and innocent Muslims, Christians, Jews, Hindus and Buddhists. Salam. 0 Reply Andy 26 Nov 2009, 1:27am “I think noble Imam told the truth that some homosexuals take his words out of context from his past speech”. So please explain what context these comments were made in. I can’t think of any context that would justify the comments he has made about gays, women or ex-muslims. “God told us to forgive some homosexuals who are sorry for their misdeeds. But some homosexuals, who are persistent in their misdeeds and who are nasty, who systematically disrespect all Muslims and all God’s laws, shall be subject of punishment” I don’t need forgiveness from God, Muslims or anybody else for being gay. I’m proud of who I am. As this is not an Islamic country, Muslims have no right to condemn or punish me any more than I have the right to condemn or punish them. “I personally do not see all homosexuals as my enemies. No, not at all. Some homosexuals are really nice and intelligent persons, and it is pleasure to discuss various issues with them. Unfortunately, some homosexuals are very aggressive and disrespectful to Muslims” Swap the word “homosexual” and “muslims” around and I agree completely. 0 Reply Jean-Paul Bentham 26 Nov 2009, 1:29am Alekim salam! 0 Reply Harkowz 26 Nov 2009, 1:34am LOL @ Rahman “God did not said they should be killed. I am sure a reasonable fine would be sufficient punishment.” Punishment? For being gay (or as religious nutcakes are obsessed with physical acts) engaging in homosexual activities? This may be the face of one type of “moderate” Islam, merely punishing gays with a monetary fine, unless they’re “persistent in their misdeeds and who are nasty,” in which case then maybe death will occur. “As history indicates, we can have various types of Shariah, and we don’t need in modern times any judge with mentality of 7th century warrior Muslim” Sharia = religious law = bonkers. Never in a billion years will Britain or America or any western country enact Sharia law. If you want Sharia then go where it’s in force now, or give up your religion like any human with an ounce of intelligence. 0 Reply darkmoonman 26 Nov 2009, 1:40am Advocating murder, even in the name of religion, is *NOT* the same as freedom of speech. 0 Reply JohnK 26 Nov 2009, 1:40am Rahman . . . thanks for your posts. You say that you have not heard any incitement to violence in a Mosque. . . but it not the case that in Wahhabism and Deobandi Islamic movements – homosexuals like non belivers are not regarded or accorded any respect or dignity . . . with the attitude predominating that these movements are the only truth rather like some branches of evangelical fundamentalist Christianity. The link below is from the Telegraph newspaper which reports an under cover investigator who discovered Wahhabism thinking alive and kicking in Regents Park Mosque, with the call for nonbelivers and homosexuals to be killed when an islamic state in the UK is established. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/2653266/Preachers-of-separatism-at-work-inside-Britains-mosques.html 0 Reply Simon Murphy 26 Nov 2009, 1:40am No 63: Rahman: “I am very sorry, but I cannot respond on questions which made in offensive way for my Faith and which targeting the Holy Prophet” What are you doing here then? The dirty pig Abu Usamah said that gay people should be murdered and that the ‘prophet’ approves of this. Does your ‘prophet’ approve of the murder of homosexuals? It’s a simple question you know. If the answer is ‘yes’, then your ‘prophet’ is a pr!ck for whom I have no respect. 0 Reply Rahman 26 Nov 2009, 1:41am Respectful Jean-Paul Bentham! I think so many homosexuals simply mislead about Islam by Western islamophobic propaganda in mainstream press. I never heard in any Mosque any “Jihadist” who declared to Muslims his animosity toward homosexuals. Speaking from my experience, I never met any “Jihadist”, any person who would tell me that I must go against all innocent and very cultured people in Europe or in America and do some horrifying acts. God made life of every human being sacred and told every Muslim respect it. Whoever violates God’s order, that person will be punished by God on the Day of Judgment. Salam. 0 Reply JohnK 26 Nov 2009, 1:50am Rahman . . . there is a difference between not hearing incitement to hatred in a mosque, and not wanting to hear about cases of incitement to hatred in Mosques. I suspect that you are in denial . . . and one reason for coming onto this site is to try and come to terms with the reality of Muslim extremism which you are finding it difficult to come to terms with. Salam 0 Reply Jean-Paul Bentham 26 Nov 2009, 1:53am Rahman: You have as much of a right to comment here as anybody else. Many of us are angry, as you can see. In your first comment, you said: “Allahu Akbar! Perfect imam! His speach is like fire, his mind like diamond!” Were you talking about the Iman who spoke at the university? Salam. 0 Reply Rahman 26 Nov 2009, 2:05am Respectful Andy! Perhaps I understand your standing correctly. You are born and living in society where very little understanding of Islam as Religion, and practically no understanding of Islamic societies in Middle East, Central Asia, Southern Asia and Africa. Surely you cannot accept the principles and the way of life which existed in such societies. That’s very logical, I think. I am not in position to made any critique of your person, nor the way of your life. You are a free person, and it is up to God to make His decision about you. All I wish to you is to be happy and peaceful, and the same for all your dear friends and relatives! Salam. 0 Reply Rahman 26 Nov 2009, 2:19am Respectful JohnK! I am speaking from my experience. I think it would be important for you to keep in mind that I do not trust, as perhaps you do, to governmental islamophobic propaganda about some, unknown to me, by the way, Mosques. You know, as much I do, that British and American governmental officials easily mislead millions of their own citizens with false declarations. Mr. Bush is the one, Mr. Blair – another one. As for the press people, they are just parrots who repeat practically everything what has been said by governmental lairs about several Mosques and their Imams, and specific Islamic countries in Asia. 0 Reply Harkowz 26 Nov 2009, 2:34am Please give examples of “governmental islamophobic propaganda”. 0 Reply Harkowz 26 Nov 2009, 2:50am “Whoever violates God’s order, that person will be punished by God on the Day of Judgment.” Oh no! ALLAH will punish me!! That’s if Sharia law hasn’t lopped off my hand, fined me, imprisoned me or beheaded me for some breach of Islamic code! 0 Reply Paul 26 Nov 2009, 3:06am To think that gay folk, who pay taxes as single people, financially subsidize freaks like this Imam. Hopefully we’ll see an end to ignorance like this. 0 Reply Jean-Paul Bentham 26 Nov 2009, 5:18am Rahman: Can we presume that you are a member of the University’s “Islamic Society”? Or, are you yourself an Iman? Before you began to comment here, we were saying that moderate Muslims who do not speak up against the extremists in Islam may be seen as their accomplices. Do you agree with that? Looking forward to hearing from you again. 0 Reply Rahman 26 Nov 2009, 5:37am Respectful Simon Murphy On November 26, 2009 @ 1:06 you asked several questions: 1. “Tell me about Mohammed?” 2. “ He married a 9 year old in the Koran did he not?” 3. “Isn’t Mohammed therefore a dirty child molester?” The answers are: 1. It would be very long story and this place is not suitable for it. 2. In the Holy Koran, which is the God’s words, we do not have any indication on proper age for marriage. There is only indication for number of possible wives. However, in the stories about Prophet’s life (peace be with him), which are known as Hadith, we can read the story about his private life. 3. Prophet Mohammed (peace be with him) was not “a dirty child molester”, but a Noble Man who followed God’s orders on the subject of marriage. Islamic world based on own system of jurisprudence for past 14 centuries (which is substantially different from all other systems), and such system permitting marriage on human females in early ages, based on Asian traditions. In that time the Great Britain did not did not exist, nor the United States of America with their Christian distorted concepts on marriage and sexual relations (including the homosexual matters). Muslims are not obligated to follow the Christian-Western concepts of human sexuality. There no reason for it whatsoever. We live in two distinctive geographic and cultural parts of the world, and convergence of it is not possible. That’s for sure. 0 Reply Rahman 26 Nov 2009, 5:55am Respectful Jean-Paul Bentham! 1. Your presumption is not correct. 2. Word “extremists” have various semantics, but I am against any extreme action and always preaching people of making thoughtful decision before committing any act, and in the most comprehensive way in accordance with God’s guidance which set in Holy Koran. 3. In fact, any extremism is absolutely counter-Islamic. God made very clear laws for community of Muslims, and any outsiders to basic Islamic society are rejected. God dislikes transgressors, period. 0 Reply Ramón 26 Nov 2009, 6:23am Label me naïve, but just as Britain was wrong to export it’s might, culture and religion to the rest of the world in previous centuries, it’s equally wrong for immigrants to believe that they must absolutely be accommodated in every aspect of their beliefs and mores. There are numerous nations in the world where Islam has always been the dominant religion and where customs, culture and law have been guided by it. Why don’t these extremists put their energies into improving situations in such countries instead of impinging themselves in places where everything about their behavior is at odds with their host country? Surely you should be able to carve a niche for yourself in Yemen, Sudan, Chad, Arabia, UAE, etc., etc; places where you are firmly entrenched. Why spread hostility and great chasms in societies that have functioned, in one way or the other without your repressive system? Brits and other Europeans had better wake up to the damage that is growing in their nations if they don’t put their foot down and apply the brakes; today it’s homosexuals, but tomorrow it will be women and the courts that will be besieged by demands that are anathema to European gains in human rights. 0 Reply nuriboy 26 Nov 2009, 9:33am Rahman, if you think homosexuality and the other “perverse sexual relations” were a western (I/E US, UK) innovation. These are not western concepts. I know because as someone who is muslim ( go ahead, call me an oxymoron. im used to it) and lived in north africa for some years, homosexuality is widerspread but kept firmly hidden. Arab poets from hundreds of years ago such as Abu Nuwas.. love poetry for other men more than competed with that about women – it overwhelmed it. Alot of straight muslim men will never be able to comprehend homosexual feelings as most are raised with a masculinized wahabist version of islam which robs them of any kind of empathy towards anything different. 0 Reply Harvey 26 Nov 2009, 9:40am Salam Ramon:- You comments should be welcome as this is debate. Sadly as with all humans it seems when we don’t like what we hear we must insult that person. I’m must apologise for some of the very disrespectful comments, not all of us are like what you have read. Unlike some I welcome your debate and prospective. Need I remind people that it is do-good Christians who usually spout rubbish like not putting up Christmas lights in case they offend. Then you see a row of Muslim shops with the decorations because small minded people can’t expect that while the holiday may not be celebrated in the same way the spirit is enjoyed. It is very true that when what people don’t understand they feel must insult, they is no need and simply a little respect and maybe just a little learning wouldn’t go a miss. I know a little about the Muslim faith as much as Judiasm, Christianity etc. I been out with a couple of Muslims and that it turn has made me not excepting just one religion but that to me there is good and bad in all. Most of the insulters here probably won’t read all this because they read two lines and their small minds go into overdrive. The main point from this story is we have a man who I know doesn’t speak for the majority of Muslims in the UK but does incite hatred with his speech about basically murdering or punishing gay people. We know of the gay people being put to death in the likes of Iraq and Iran just because they are being themselves. Why? There is no need as the Biggest point I make I hear from all religions and as quoted by yourself. That being:- “God made life of every human being sacred and told every Muslim respect it. Whoever violates God’s order, that person will be punished by God on the Day of Judgment.” If this is the case why do humans believe it is there right to act for God when they know their Judgment will come? Surely that in itself is act against Gods will? 0 Reply Harvey 26 Nov 2009, 10:00am Apologys message (83) is for Rahman not Ramon. Thank you 0 Reply Jean-Paul Bentham 26 Nov 2009, 10:29am Salem alekem Rahman: Thank you for confirming that you are not a member of the Islam Society at the universities which are mentioned in the story written by Jessica Geen. However, I would like to remind you, sir, that you have not answered the question I asked at my post 56: “Just a simple question: how do you differentiate between free speech and inciting violence? For example, are they both legal in the UK?” 0 Reply Simon Murphy 26 Nov 2009, 10:54am Rahman: Why are you avoiding the question. Stop posting your nonsense about Mohammed until you answer this simple question. Do you personally believe that Abu Usamah was correct in calling for the murder of homosexuals? Any muslim who believes that is a pig who needs to f*** off to Saudi Arabia or Iran or some other country where that type of evil nonsense is tolerated. Any muslim who believes that homosexuals deserve to be murdered do not belong in Britain. They belong in prison. And don’t try to use Allah or Mohammed to excuse the evil of Abu Usamah. We’re living in the 21st century. If you’d prefer to be living in the 8th century then move to Saudi Arabia! And don’t try to use that lazy, stupid excuse of ‘islamophobia’. There is no such thing. Islam is a freely chosen belief system. If you choose to believe that gay people deserve murder then I choose to believe your religion is evil and stupid and backward and savage. You can and should just as easily choose to be accepting of gays, atheists, christians, hindus, women etc. Stop blaming others for the serious problems in islam. The dirty pig Abu Usamah gives islamophobia a good name. 0 Reply Jean-Paul Bentham 26 Nov 2009, 11:08am nuriboy (82): Thank you for pointing out that homosexuality is not an innovation of western civilization. In fact, in his award-winning scholary work entitled “Homosexuality & Civilization, Professor Louis Crompton has dedicated an entire chapter to the recorded history of legitimate homosexual relationships in Imperial China (500 BCE-1849). Professor Crompton also dedicates a chapter to the recorded existence of homosexual relations in Judea (900BCE-600CE). Furthermore, in 1964 in the ancient necropolis of Saqqara, the Egyptian archeologist Ahmed Moussa discovered a series of tombs with rock-cut passages in the escarpment facing the causeway that lead to the pyramid of Unas. Soon after, Chief Inspector Mounir Basta reported crawling on his hands and knees through the passages, and entering one of the Old Kingdom tombs. He was impressed with its unique scenes of two men in intimate embrace, something he had never seen before in all the Saqqara tombs. The hieroglyphs revealed that this unique tomb had been built for two men to cohabit and that both were employees in the palace of King Niuserre of the Fifth Dynasty. Inside the tomb the names of Niankhkhnum and Khnumhotep are inscribed as one name over the doorway. Here, in the innermost private part of their joint-tomb, the two men stand in an embrace meant to last for eternity. Finally, when Europeans discovered the civilzations of the South Pacific, they recorded the openly affectionate behaviour of men for one another, and it is also on record that Cortez set his wild dogs on a group of 20 homosexuals in what is today Mexico, and they were torn to shreds before his eyes. By extension, may we presume the existence of homosexuality in the Stone Age and beyond? These fact are not ignored by British universities which is why I asked Rahman he he made a distinction between free spech and the incitement of hatred against a minority group. A question which has yet to be answered. Salem 0 Reply Harvey 26 Nov 2009, 11:14am Seems those that preach ‘there is no such thing as islamophobia’ are the very ones being it. I wonder what response we would get if someone had said ….lazy, excuse of ‘homophobia’. There is no such thing? Some on here spouts are no different in hatred at the very person this article is about! Funny how those who shout about those being intolerant scream how they should be toleranted. 0 Reply Jean-Paul Bentham 26 Nov 2009, 12:06pm Rahman A question at my post 62 has also not been answered: “Could you explain, for example, why so many of us homosexuals believe we are hated by Jihadists Moslems?” Peace. 0 Reply JohnK 26 Nov 2009, 12:14pm Rahman wrote “I am speaking from my experience. I think it would be important for you to keep in mind that I do not trust, as perhaps you do, to governmental islamophobic propaganda about some, unknown to me, by the way, Mosques.” . . . . . . . . . . . . . . A muslim women exposed the extremism in Regents Park Mosque by going undercover as investigator with a video camera whilst dresssed in full burqa. The video footage was able to expose a saudia preacher who called for the kiiling of non-believers and homosexuals . . . available for all to see. Here is another example of a west midlands mosque calling for homosexuals to be killed. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=whRaYuDRC_0 Rahman . . . you do not have a right to have your intolerence tolerated as Harvey points out. When are you going to wake up to the extremism in some mosques which your seem to be in denial over. 0 Reply Jean-Paul Bentham 26 Nov 2009, 12:20pm Rahman: After you have answered my questions at post 61 and 62, you may reciprocate my respect by answering my question at post 72: ‘In your first comment, you said: “Allahu Akbar! Perfect imam! His speach is like fire, his mind like diamond!” Were you talking about the Iman who spoke at the university?’ 0 Reply Jean-Paul Bentham 26 Nov 2009, 12:30pm Salem Rhaman: Just a reminder that the two questions I asked at post 78 have yet to be answered: “Are you yourself an Iman? Before you began to comment here, we were saying that moderate Muslims who do not speak up against the extremists in Islam may be seen as their accomplices. Do you agree with that?” It has been my experience that a refusal to answer simple questions points to a disability to answer more complex ones. 0 Reply Simon Murphy 26 Nov 2009, 12:32pm “Seems those that preach ‘there is no such thing as islamophobia’ are the very ones being it. ” There is no such thing as ‘islamophobia’. Islam is a belief system. Babies are not born muslim. They are taught to be muslims and to abide by islamic traditions. Being a muslim is a choice. Just as being a catholic or jew or hindu is a choice. I have absolutely no problem with any muslim who respects the human and civil rights of gay people, women and non-muslims. However if they use their freely-chosen belief system to call for the murder of homosexuals or non-muslims or women of for the removal or suppresion of their rights; then of course it is acceptable and necessary to condemn the belief system. It is not ‘islamophobic’. It is common sense. Being gay or being a woman or being black or being old is NOT a choice. Therefore it is 100% unacceptable to try to discriminate against someone based on any of those factors. Muslims are fully protected against discrimination using these factors. Their freely chosen opinions and beliefs cannot and should not be above criticism. And they should be roundly condemned when they incite murder. By the way I am still waiting to hear which ‘moderate’ muslim groups have condemned the decision by the university’s muslim society to invite that fascist to speak? Why are they being so silent? 0 Reply Jean-Paul Bentham 26 Nov 2009, 12:45pm Rhaman: In your comment to me at post 80, you said: “…any extremism is absolutely counter-Islamic. God made very clear laws for community of Muslims, and any outsiders to basic Islamic society are rejected. God dislikes transgressors, period.” That brings us to a more complex question: Why do you believe that the koran is the word of god? Also, I would add my voice to Harvey’s question at post 83: “Why do humans believe it is their right to act for God when they know their Judgment will come? Surely that in itself is an act against God’s will? ” And that leads to another question: Who were the transgressors at 9/11? Salem. 0 Reply Jean-Paul Bentham 26 Nov 2009, 12:54pm Rahman: Do you really believe that the sun sets in a puddle of mud, as it is written in the koran? Salem. 0 Reply Jean-Paul Bentham 26 Nov 2009, 1:01pm Rahman: Do you really think this 2-year-old girl understands a word of what she is saying? And in terms of education, is this child being developed or deformed? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gGFjkfKoECc Salem. 0 Reply Harvey 26 Nov 2009, 1:02pm A lot of people ‘born into Islam’ in Islamic states don’t feel they have a choice, regardless of what anyone believes. The same goes for any religion. In most religious text of any faith (except Buddhist) non-believers should be killed or will go to hell (sound familiar?) Its why whilst I have believe in God I don’t follow any religion. I Don’t believe God would want people to kill anybody let alone anyone from another faith who still worships the same God. Don’t also forget that whilst I know I was born gay there are still a lot of people including gay people, who believe being gay is a choice. 0 Reply 21stCenturySpirituality 26 Nov 2009, 1:54pm Rahman, (RE – 54), I’m all for freedom of speech, thought, conscience and religion but as a person of faith and a man of God I am deeply disturbed by people who claim to be speaking for God when they talk about conducting abhorent (and ungodly) acts of cruelty and of excluding and oppressing people, or fostering and promoting intolerance and prejudice towards others. Where is the nobility in that, whether one is a Muslim or a Christian, a Buddhist or a Hindu, or whatever belief system one follows? Such things are very far from the word or will of God. 0 Reply Simon Murphy 26 Nov 2009, 2:29pm Harvey: No 97: “A lot of people ‘born into Islam’ in Islamic states don’t feel they have a choice” Well they are wrong. They can choose to be muslims who respect the civil and human rights and liberties of women, gay people and non-muslims. Or they can choose to be muslims who want to suppress and oppress other people. Or they can choose to believe that Mohammed is a fictional character and that the Koran makes no more sense than an Enid Blyton book and that they reject its teachings. There is nothing innate about being a muslim or a christian or a jew or a hindu or a sikh. Anyone who claims otherwise is being ridiculous. 0 Reply 21stCenturySpirituality 26 Nov 2009, 2:33pm Rahman, (RE – 57), please could you be more specific about precisely what you mean by “…homosexuals, who are persistant in their misdeeds…”? And is constructive, reasonable and rational criticism or questioning of any belief which promotes intolerance, cruelty, prejudice, suffering, etc, be it an Islamic, Christian, Buddhist or whatever belief system such a concept/idea originated from, does questioning such beliefs with reasoned argument backed up by science, scholarship, theology, philosophy and other fields of human knowledge and understanding count as aggression and disrespect or ‘islamophobia’ to you? 0 Reply Rahman 26 Nov 2009, 2:41pm Respectful Harvey, Thanks for your polite and intelligent comment on November 26, 2009 @ 9:40. You stated that “We know of the gay people being put to death in the likes of Iraq and Iran just because they are being themselves. Why? I do not have actual statistics on death or execution of gay people in Iran and Iraq. What are spread in Western press about events in these countries is not facts but rumors and subjective interpretations. In Iraq, currently, homosexuality is legal. Whoever do extrajudicial killing is a murderer. You also stated: “If this is the case why do humans believe it is there right to act for God when they know their Judgment will come?” There are circumstances when to take life is justifiable by God’s command, but I cannot do the analytics of all exceptions now because limitations of time and place. If you would study Holy Koran, you might find your answer in it. 0 Reply Rahman 26 Nov 2009, 3:05pm As-Salam Aleykum Respectful Jean-Paul Bentham! Regarding your question (“Just a simple question: how do you differentiate between free speech and inciting violence? For example, are they both legal in the UK?”). I think inciting violence is not legal in the UK. As for answering the questions from various people, sometimes I delay my answers for various reasons, and sometimes I never answer some, if the attitude of some questioner is impolite or clearly offensive to my person, or to my religion, or to my Muslim people. Certain gay individuals should understand that if they disrespected and offended someone, they cannot expect polite communication and any answer on their questions. Any hostility excluding possibility of discussion of any subject. 0 Reply 21stCenturySpirituality 26 Nov 2009, 3:08pm Rahman, I’ll tell you one thing though if you think some of the comments about Islam here are bad you should see some of the bile that has been spouted on the Christian Institute facebook page towards Muslims and Islam. I was dumbfounded I can tell you and was even compelled to fight your corner myself in the interests of tolerance and democracy. Have a look, heres a link: http://www.facebook.com/pages/The-Christian-Institute/78436661801 0 Reply Iris 26 Nov 2009, 3:11pm Rahman, you explained Mohammed’s marriage of a very young girl as something that was ‘acceptable at that time’. Fair enough – things were different then. However, why doesn’t the same ‘things were different’ then argument apply to the treatment of women. I know Islam is far from the only religion that has devalued women in the past, but why haven’t some forms of Islam moved on and started treating women as equal to men? 0 Reply Jean-Paul Bentham 26 Nov 2009, 3:12pm There he was, gone! So Rahman can take two facts back to his mosque: 1) that members of a minority group are not happy with his oppressive religion and are not afraid to say so and, 2) that some members of a minority group have many unanswered questions about his oppressive religion. Does anybody have anything to add to that? 0 Reply Rahman 26 Nov 2009, 3:19pm Respectful nuriboy! You stated : “Alot of straight muslim men will never be able to comprehend homosexual feelings as most are raised with a masculinized wahabist version of islam which robs them of any kind of empathy towards anything different.” I don’t know what you really mean when you said “A lot of straight Muslim men…”, because “masculinized wahabist version of Islam” does not represents Islam on the world scale. 0 Reply Rahman 26 Nov 2009, 3:29pm Dear 21stCenturySpirituality ( November 26, 2009 @ 15:08), Thank you for your courtesy! 0 Reply Jean-Paul Bentham 26 Nov 2009, 3:34pm Sorry about that Rahman, I thought you had disappeared, but you were commenting while I was typing. These things happen in cyberspace. Thank you for answering my question in the sense that you do know that it is illegal to incite violence in the UK. Have any of my other questions met with your approuval, sir? I do have another following my comment at post 87 to nuriboy: Does Islam teach that homosexuality is an innovation of western civilization? Salem 0 Reply Rahman 26 Nov 2009, 3:40pm Respectful Iris! You stated: “I know Islam is far from the only religion that has devalued women in the past, but why haven’t some forms of Islam moved on and started treating women as equal to men?” Apparently, what you know about Islam is insufficient: Islam has and is valued women far more then Judaism and Christianity all together. Women in Islam have the right to property ownership. Women are the integral part of Islam. Without women Islam could not exist. That’s God’s Order. 0 Reply Simon Murphy 26 Nov 2009, 3:48pm No 102: Rahman: “Certain gay individuals should understand that if they disrespected and offended someone, they cannot expect polite communication and any answer on their questions. ” Agreed And certain muslim individuals should understand that if they are going to comment on a news article whose subject is a fascist muslim pig called Abu Usamah who thinks that his religion allows the murder of gay people, then the reaction to that religion will be contempt and scorn. Muslim people only deserve the same respect as they are willing to show gay people. If a muslim disrespects a gay person he and his religion deserves to be condemned and disrespected. That’s perfectly fair and reasonable. I think we are ALL agreed on that. 0 Reply Iris 26 Nov 2009, 3:52pm Thank you very much for your reply, Rahman. You’re right – I know very little about Islam so forgive any mistakes I might make. I was thinking of, for example, women not being allowed to drive in Saudi Arabia or leave the house without a male escort. And, also, as I seem to have misunderstood, please could you explain precisely what the Koran says about women’s worth as witnesses in court? Thank you for taking the time to post here. It’s good that you’re happy to discuss things. 0 Reply Eddy 26 Nov 2009, 3:54pm Rahman at #57 stated: “He is not homophobic at all. Islam is much more tolerant religion then Judaism or Christianity in relation to homosexuals” Rahman, no one can say that this Muslim preacher has not clearly demonstrated the worst homophobia imaginable. His true inner belief that homosexuals should be killed has been caught, coming from his own lips, ON CAMERA. If you continue to say “He is not homophobic at all” then you will be behaving irrationally. However, if you believe in much of repression and discrimination that is part of the Muslim faith, then I suspect you may already be greatly inclined to irrationality. Rahman at #60 wrote: “I never heard in any Mosque any incitement to violence”. Ah, well, then this could be your problem, Rahman. Maybe YOU are a benign Muslim, one who is as minimally harmful as the average nominal Christian. So, in that case, you need to become informed. And quickly, my friend! Make haste! You need to have the scales lifted from your eyes. You need to see the reality. You need to visit some new mosques! And not only in this country! You need to take a tour of all the Islamic countries from the west of Africa right through across to Indonesia. Enter the mosques on Fridays, at midday (you know the time), and listen to the weekly sermon. Hear the hatred, hear the bullying, hear the fear being induced in all the men present – the women of course are at home “where they belong”. (And then on Friday night, once the effects of the sermon have worn off, and the sun has set, go for a walk down by the sea or in the shopping areas and see your good Muslim brothers skulking around seeking out men and girls for secret casual sex.) Take the tour, Rahman. It is time for Rahman to WAKE UP. Rahman at #70 wrote: “Whoever violates God’s order, that person will be punished by God on the Day of Judgment.” And so tell us, Rahman, is my making love, or just having sex, with you or another man a violation of God’s order or not? We know the answer that your religion gives, don’t we. It is a violation. And therefore, by your own admittance above, it is PUNISHABLE. Therefore, Rahman, you have just stated that homosexuality is punishable. For something to be punishable it must be perceived as evil, wrong, dangerous. Therefore, the truth is that you believe that homosexuality is evil, wrong, and dangerous. So cut the “Respectful Jean-Paul Bentham” nonsense! You aren’t into RESPECT at all, my Muslim matey! You don’t treat all other people with dignity at all. You are into hating homosexuals. This is proven by the above. Rahman at #73 replied to Andy, stating: “You are born and living in society where very little understanding of Islam as Religion, and practically no understanding of Islamic societies in Middle East, Central Asia, Southern Asia and Africa. Surely you cannot accept the principles and the way of life which existed in such societies.” OK, Rahman, so you refuse what Andy has said on the grounds that you feel sure he has no experience of Muslim life. Well, listen to this, and don’t forget it: there are thousands of us who HAVE experience of Muslim life. Thousands of us HAVE LIVED in your appalling Islam-dominated countries and witnessed on a daily basis the horrendous way of life that exists there. As many a Muslim man confided to me in private during my many years living and working in Islamic countries, “Here there is nothing. You can only eat, work, sleep, and f*** your wife!” And how right they are. Life in all Muslim countries is to a considerable extent BARREN. That’s why we all flee, please note. We don’t stay in your countries. And that’s why many of your people want to come here. You want to enjoy our freedom but you also want to continue with your medieval barbaric beliefs and practices. Regarding Rahman’s answers to Simon Murphy at #79, we see that Rahman has shiftily, and unashamedly, avoided answering the questions put to him. Rahman at #83 responded to Ramon by writing: “Your comments should be welcome as this is debate.” Debate?! Get off your self-adoring high-horse! You are AVOIDING debate! You have been asked questions and you have deliberately chosen not to answer them. See example above. Rahman wrote at #101: “Respectful Harvey. Thanks for your polite and intelligent comment on November 26, 2009 @ 9:40″. Between Rahman’s posts at #83 and #101 he has been repeatedly requested to answer questions that he has very clearly and intentionally avoided. He demonstrates his arrogance, masked up as some kind of self-sanctified dignity, by deigning only to respond to those people who have not asked him questions that are difficult for him to answer, i.e. questions that expose the evil of much of Islam. I have spent hours in Islamic museums admiring the exquisite caligraphy and decoration of ancient copies of “The Holy Koran”. The craftsmanship is as good as, if not better than, the work that was produced by Christian monasteries. However, I have also witnessed first-hand and with my own eyes the horrific hideousness of the heart of Islam. It is very hurtful when after many years Muslim friends turn to you and quietly tell you with complete sincerity and assurance that because you drink alcohol and because you have sex with men you are evil in the eyes of Allah and therefore you will be punished. Disrespectful Rahman, as Richard Dawkins has so brilliantly shown in his book “The God Delusion”, belief in any religion is a form of mental ill-health. The followers of the world’s religions however differ in their degrees of mental ill-health. We have ample evidence that within the millions of Muslims there are many who are very seriously mentally ill. Their heads are full of five-times-a-day-since-birth brainwash. 0 Reply Rahman 26 Nov 2009, 4:09pm Respectful Jean-Paul Bentham ! I have certain reservations on some of your questions in the current time; therefore, please excuse me if some of it remains unanswered. Your extended comment at post 87 to nuriboy is splendid. However, there are large anthropological data on the subject of homosexuality. Study and contemplation of such data is very difficult task and this is what we need to undertake in the future, in my opinion. As for your question – “Does Islam teach that homosexuality is an innovation of western civilization?” — the answer is no. Homosexuality became renovated by Western homosexuals but not innovated. Obviously, Western renovations of homosexuality are not acceptable in Islamic world which established on two continents already. I don’t believe that 1.5 billion Muslims in the world will accept Western renovations of homosexuality. 0 Reply Eddy 26 Nov 2009, 4:18pm Rahman at #102 wrote: “I delay my answers . . . and sometimes I never answer . . . if the attitude of some questioner is impolite or clearly offensive to my person, or to my religion, or to my Muslim people.” Who the HELL do you think you ARE? Ah, of course! Silly me! Yes, one your actual middle names, if not your real first name, is “Mohammed” is it not? And ever since you have been a baby, your mummy and daddy have treated you like a little god, have they not – like a little man created in the image of Mohammed himself. I have seen it THOUSANDS of times. Little Muslim boys allowed to get away with blue-murder, treated like little gods, because, of course, they are all made in the image of your “holy” prophet Mohammed. Hence, your the arrogance, and the LAUGHABLE pomposity and fake sincerity demonstrated above. Rahman at #102 further demonstrated his Islmaic arrogance by writing: “Any hostility excludes possibility of discussion of any subject.” LOL! This is like some silly old medieval QUEEN talking! It’s all on the wicked old queen’s terms, is it! Rahman, at #109 wrote: “Islam has and is valued women far more then Judaism and Christianity all together. Women in Islam have the right to property ownership. So in Rahman’s very blinkered view of life women who have a right to property ownership have EVERYTHING they could ever wish for! Women don’t need anything else! Property ownership should be enough to make women completely happy! Toss the dog a biscuit and it’ll jump with joy! Rahman, at #109 wrote: “Women are the integral part of Islam. Without women Islam could not exist.” Eer, yeah, wow, that’s one really deep profound and RESPECTFUL statement that really elevates women to a height that they should deeply appreciate. “We need you, women, to get you pregnant and populate the world with thousands more little Mohammeds!” Rahman, I am not fooled by your little game, not fooled at all by your pathetic pretence of innocence and dignity. Either sincerely try to answer all the questions which other people have put to you, whether or not you like those questions, or scamper! 0 Reply Rahman 26 Nov 2009, 4:22pm Mr. Simon Murphy, I am glad we have common ground. It would be proper, I think, if you would carefully read my earlier comment in which I stated that in the Holy Koran we do not have any God’s order to Muslims to kill any homosexual person. Also, please excuse me, but I think it would be very beneficial for you if you would read in the Wikipedia.Com its article about Abu Usamah. It would light up the matter with his sermons for you, in my humble opinion. Salam. 0 Reply Eddy 26 Nov 2009, 4:32pm Rahman wrote at #115 “in my humble opinion”. Ha, ha, HA! Who does this little chappie think he’s fooling! There isn’t an ounce of humility in this Rahman. He has oozed nothing but arrogance and pride! He needs to WAKE UP, clear the head of the years of Islamic brainwash, and get himself FREE! 0 Reply Rahman 26 Nov 2009, 4:45pm Respectful Iris! Certainly, your mistakes are forgivable. You are a very nice person; I have no doubt about it, so far. As for certain regulations in such country as Saudi Arabia in relation to driving privileges, that’s have nothing to do with Islam: women are free to drive any vehicle in other Islamic countries, I think. Regarding your question on women testimony in Islamic court, the answer is hard to make because in Islamic world we have different kinds of women, and they do not possess the same rights in Islamic court, and Islamic courts are not homogeneous – that make the subject more complicated. Similar situations existed in Western courts, and for very long time, as history showed it to us. Because such subject is very complicated, I’d prefer for now not to go in details. But, in any case, as far as property rights are concerned, generally Muslim women possess equal rights with Muslim men. 0 Reply Jean-Paul Bentham 26 Nov 2009, 5:24pm Rahman: Before going any further, I would like you to know that I dislike being called “Respectful Jean-Paul Bentham” and I would very much appreciate it if you would stop calling me that at once if you expect me to question you any longer. I wouldn’t like it if my father or my mother, my brothers or my sisters, my cousins and aunts and uncles or any member of the human race would call me “Respectful Jean-Paul Bentham”. Why? In the first place, it is not my name, and you know very well that it is not my name. And because I know that you know that it is not my name, I asked myself why would you persist in calling me a name which is not my name, and you know what… …an “answer” was revealed to me, and it certainly wasn’t from you, because you have done nothing but avoid my questions since you popped in here without any invitation from anyone I know. Do you think that a gay website would welcome a homophobic, illiterate goon of a fundamentalist muslim cult? How could you be surprised that so few of our members are satisfied by what few, scant and ambiguous answers you give us to questions which are very, very important to us. However, the real reason that I want you to stop calling me “Respectful Jean-Paul Bentham” is that I am now convinced, deep in my heart, that you are using the concept of RESPECT to silence my freedom of speech just as you have been trained to do, and I will have none of it. I know you don’t respect infidels and homosexuals, just like I know that religions don’t respect infidels and homosexuals, and just like I know that you are in no position to speak in the name of islam or god or anything else. Also, it would facilitate things for everybody here if you were to drop the mask of peace and decency and have a good look in the mirror, on the off-chance that your religion allows you to look into a mirror, and see yourself for what you really are. You are intentionally giving us the impression of being an innocent and defenseless child who can barely write proper English, and I know that you are an impostor, that you can write excellent English, and that you refuse to use this beautiful language the way it is meant to be used because you truly believe that god only speaks arabic, don’t you, that god spoke to the prophet in perfect arabic, and that only god’s language is to used to communicate intelligently. And if you are not allowed to use a mirror, then perhaps you are permitted to look over your shoulder and to see how you have ravaged the beautiful Arabic culture that helped to save Western Civilization by giving the world men of genius and love of truth like Kindi, Avicenna, Averroës and Maimonides who transmitted Greek philosophy to Europe though Spain and into the Italian Renaissance. Those were the days when intelligent Arabs were not afraid to read, write and speak the magnificent Greek language and to truly RESPECT the human quest for meaning. Finally, Raymond, from now on I’ll answer my own questions and I’ll let you know if I “feel” like answering yours. Get the picture? 0 Reply Simon Murphy 26 Nov 2009, 5:26pm I’m bored with Rahman. Why does he refuse to answer the questions that are being put to him? Does ‘Allah’ or ‘Mohammed’ or ‘Harry Potter’ or whichever character he worships, tell him to only respond to questions that he can give a lazy cliche as a response? Muslims and their religion deserve ONLY the same respect that they are willing to give gay people. 0 Reply Eddy 26 Nov 2009, 6:03pm Well stated, Jean-Paul Bentham and Simon Murphy, at #118 and #119. If a non-Muslim visits or lives in a Muslim country or even involves himself or herself in a Muslim group in the West, he or she is REQUIRED and BOUND to behave as the Muslims direct. There is absolutely no choice. You’ll find yourself in the clink or deported if you don’t! I am sure people don’t need me to prove this. One only has to recall the recent cases in the comparatively liberated United Arab Emirates (UAE) of Westerners being jailed for behaviour which upsets Muslim sensitivities but which we consider acceptable. However, when you visit or live in a Muslim environment, Muslims FORCE you to behave according to their belief system. Therefore, if Muslims come into OUR country, or OUR Forum, or any of OUR groups in OUR country or countries, it is damned insolent of them to DEMAND that we behave as if we were trapped on their soil! No, if they wish to enter this Forum, then they debate according to OUR terms, our standards, not theirs. Rahman, many questions have been put to you. You can still answer them (and, please, without caveats or excuses of not having sufficient time or space to fully explain). Feel free to provide answers to all the questions that have been asked of you, and feel free to answer at length. In turn you will be fully answered. You can be sure of that. Are you prepared to have your views challenged? 0 Reply Will 26 Nov 2009, 6:20pm Yes, I too an curious as to the answers Rahman can provide to these enlightening questions. But it seems he’s rather incapable of a direct answer… I wonder why>? 0 Reply Eddy 26 Nov 2009, 7:00pm Come on, Rahman. Don’t be frightened. You’re safely sitting behind your monitor. You’re as safe as any of us are. Nobody can hit you over the head. Nobody knows where you live. Nobody knows who your friends and family are. You will only have to deal with agreement or objections to whatever answers you provide. So come on now, we invite you to free and open debate. Defend Abu Usamah as best you can by answering the questions that have been put to you. Take your time if you like. Prepare your answers carefully in Word, if you like, and then paste them in. We will back. We look forward to your answers. . . . 0 Reply Keith 26 Nov 2009, 7:12pm I have just read on my YAHOO! home page, as I logged on, that the child sex-abuse scandal, endemic in the Roman Catholic Church in Ireland, over many decades, has been shown to have been a huge “cover up” by the RCC. On the same page, I read that some two million muslims are ‘stoning the devil’ which I take to mean the annual Haj in Mecca. If I shake my head any more, it will fall off. So glad I abandoned ALL religion when little more than a kid. Rahman, mate! I have been reading your gunk too; it is not even worth commenting on. Run away and play, there’s a good boy. Keith. SALFORD. 0 Reply 21stCenturySpirituality 26 Nov 2009, 7:28pm You are welcome Rahman. I stand against discrimination and prejudice wherever I find it and whatever form it takes, and in particular when people use their religion to try to justify such things. God does not join them in their judgements. 0 Reply Rahman 26 Nov 2009, 7:30pm Many homosexual men became priests and monks in Roman Catholic Church and they systematically committed male child sex-abuse all over the Western world (at least). That’s indicates something very obvious about homosexuality per se. Leaders of Islamic world are free from such deprivity. Allahu Akbar! 0 Reply Rahman 26 Nov 2009, 7:35pm To: 21stCenturySpirituality (November 26, 2009 @ 19:28) You are an excellent person. I perfectly agreed with you. 0 Reply Harkowz 26 Nov 2009, 7:38pm Rahman: “Many homosexual men became priests and monks in Roman Catholic Church and they systematically committed male child sex-abuse all over the Western world (at least). That’s indicates something very obvious about homosexuality per se. Leaders of Islamic world are free from such deprivity. Allahu Akbar!” The filthy religious bigot shows his true colours. 0 Reply Neville 26 Nov 2009, 7:54pm Islam is a filthy, evil, perverted religion suitable only for primitive peoples living in an uncivilised world. 0 Reply Will 26 Nov 2009, 8:12pm “Many homosexual men became priests and monks in Roman Catholic Church and they systematically committed male child sex-abuse all over the Western world (at least). That’s indicates something very obvious about homosexuality per se.” If you genuinely believe this, then you are grossly misinformed about child abuse. But then again, wasn’t Mohammed a paedophile too? I suppose if your “great prophet” likes to bang up 6 year old girls, you probably are quote an authority on paedophilia. The Islamic source materials state that Muhammad proposed marriage to Aisha when she was 6. He assumed her silence constituted her consent. Some 2 to 3 years later, just after he had fled to Medina, he consummated his marriage with her. He was 52 and she was 9. ‘A’isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported: Allah’s Apostle (may peace be upon him) married me when I was six years old, and I was admitted to his house when I was nine years old. – Muslim 8. 3310 Indeed. And you have the audacity to come in here and demean gay people with this reference to gays being paedophiles and laud your religion as your moral compass???? Please, your hypocrisy is laughable. 0 Reply Harvey 26 Nov 2009, 8:15pm Thank you Rahman for having the guts to come on here and answer the questions put to you. While I may or may not agree I respect what you have said. You could have chosen to condemn us all but mostly shown respect with your answers to, after all what has been put to you. Some of you on here should hang your heads in shame at the way you behave. Some of your actions can only be best discribed as a lynch mob intend on discrediting anyone whose opinions differ from your own. You expect tolerance and yet have shown that apparently nobody else should be tolerated. Homophobia is the most vile of things yet anyone looking at the attitudes on here for the first time surely would feel truely sick of the complete disrespect for any other beliefs. You should be ashamed of yourselves. Its these shameful intolerances that cause the dispicable homophobia you wish to avoid. 0 Reply Neville 26 Nov 2009, 8:17pm Will is quite right in that Mohammad, the evil one, was clearly a paedophile in that he raped a pre-pubertal girl. 0 Reply Jean-Paul Bentham 26 Nov 2009, 8:19pm Raymond: In your post 102, in answer to one of my questions, you said: “I think inciting violence is not legal in the UK” What is there to think about? Don’t you know? Everybody else knows; I know…and you also know that it is illegal to incite violence in the UK. There are no “if’s” or “but’s” about it….it is a fact that you know, and that we all know, OK? Look Raymond, lad, University College London has cancelled a speech by a homophobic Islamic cleric. That’s it; get over it. Abu Usamah will not be giving a “charity” speech at University College London. Toss that around in your head for awhile; put it any way you like under pretext that you are “thinking”, and get over it. Likewise, not too long ago, the UK refused entrance to Ralph Phelps and family because they are known to have a record of inciting violence. Finally, Raymond, if you really know that “generally Muslim women possess equal rights with Muslim men.” (your post 117), then you are the only person in the entire world to know it, and that’s a lot more than two continents. 0 Reply Will 26 Nov 2009, 8:19pm “You expect tolerance and yet have shown that apparently nobody else should be tolerated.” Questioning the arrogance and narrow-mindedness of dogmatic religion is the first step to enlightenment and freedom of thought, not the suppression of it. 0 Reply Harkowz 26 Nov 2009, 8:24pm Religion should not be tolerated, especially when it inflicts demands or judgements or hatred on you. 0 Reply Harvey 26 Nov 2009, 8:26pm Your comment could be the same said about some of you, arrogant and narrow-minded. I may not agree with the man but my God, least I don’t feel the need to be vile and just plain nasty. It was actually refreshing that he chose to come on here. 0 Reply Neville 26 Nov 2009, 8:28pm Unfortunately, Harvey, the truth hurts. You must realise that you cannot debate with the bigoted 0 Reply Will 26 Nov 2009, 8:29pm “Religion should not be tolerated, especially when it inflicts demands or judgements or hatred on you.” Yes ironic that Harvey demands tolerance with religion when religions such as Islam shows so little tolerance for the rights of others. One must give something if it is expected to be reciprocated. Given Islam, Christianity and other oppressive dogmas have been persecuting scientific progress, free thought and minorities for so long, the onus is on them to change, not us, given religion is the one thing that is a lifestyle choice. 0 Reply Will 26 Nov 2009, 8:32pm “Your comment could be the same said about some of you, arrogant and narrow-minded. I may not agree with the man but my God, least I don’t feel the need to be vile and just plain nasty. It was actually refreshing that he chose to come on here.” That is because it suits your own agenda Harvey, not because you can rationalise what bigotry he’s spouting. I merely addressed his fallacy,using his own “moral” guide to show his hypocrisy. You, on the other hand, simple applaud his bigotry, and then arrogantly pat yourself on the back for it. 0 Reply Jean-Paul Bentham 26 Nov 2009, 8:33pm @130: I knew all along it was you MC, and you know that I knew. 0 Reply Terry 26 Nov 2009, 8:37pm @Will – Questioning the arrogance and narrow-mindedness of dogmatic religion is the first step to enlightenment and freedom of thought, not the suppression of it. Beautifully put. 0 Reply Harkowz 26 Nov 2009, 8:42pm Harvey, the intellectualy deficient meme of religion is not comparable to human traits such as sexuality or gender. 0 Reply Eddy 26 Nov 2009, 8:48pm Rahman, we continue to await your responses to the questions that have been put to you earlier in this thread. Meanwhile . . . You have chosen to comment on the religious abuse problem in Ireland by stating in post #125: “Many homosexual men became priests and monks in Roman Catholic Church and they systematically committed male child sex-abuse all over the Western world (at least). That’s indicates something very obvious about homosexuality per se. Leaders of Islamic world are free from such deprivity.” 1. You have confused, on the one hand, homosexuality, with, on the other hand, child-abuse by members of religious orders. There is a complex psychological distinction. Homosexuals in society and religious persons in enclosed orders are of two very different worlds. The matter is not simple, black and white, as you would like to lazily and easily think. 2. You have claimed that homosexual members of religious orders “systematically” committed child abuse. One must ask you for the grounds upon which you feel justified to employ the term “systematically”. The abuse was wide-spread and despicable but there is no evidence that it was systematic for to claim that it was systematic would be to claim, for example, that each new child delivered to a boarding-school, for example, was required on his first evening in residence there, for example, to attend a a brother’s room for organised ritual abuse. The abuse was bad but it was not as colourfully satanic as Muslim clerics like to paint it when they decry the entire Western world as a kingdom of infidels that must be conquered. 3. You have claimed the abuse by Catholic religious occurred “all over the Western world”. Really? Can you, for example, produce evidence that the abuse occurred in Finland? In Luxembourg? And so forth? You cannot. You have exaggerated wildly. 4. Having uttered a statement that contains a significant flaw plus two absurd exaggerations, you have then gone on to say that your statement “indicates something very obvious about homosexuality per se.” However, your statement does not indicate whatever “obvious” thing you think it does . . . because it so clearly flawed. 5. You then mount your plinth of arrogant superiority and proclaim that “Leaders of Islamic world are free from such deprivity [sic].” 5. (a) Here you publicly utter yet another absurdity because, on the one hand, you refer to leaders of the Islamic world, while, on the other hand, you have referred to members of religious orders, i.e. to people who are not Leaders of the Western world, nor Leaders of the Catholic Church – rather, by and large, to rank-and-file members of Catholic religious orders. 5 (b) However, let us overlook your absurdity in 5 (a) and imagine that you would like to balance rank-and-file members of Catholic religious orders with rank-and-file members of Islamic movements and mosques. I can tell you quite categorically from having lived and worked in a number of Muslim countries for many years that you have NO IDEA of the abuse of Muslim children by Muslims adults in Muslim countries. Everything in your societies is kept shrouded in secrecy and silence. Everything occurs behind walls, behind locked doors, behind veils, burkas, and beards. There is no openness, there is no questioning. Openness and questioning are not permitted. (We have seen only recently in Iran what happens when progressives in Islamic countries seek a semblance of openness and reform.) Your women and your children are abused and have no-one to whom to turn. In your Muslim societies you have no comparable system of refuges, or organizations, or care publicly offered to those who are abused. But occasionally news of abuse enters your public arena and then you deal with the perpetrators in the most inhumane of manners. Inhumanity is part and parcel of the Muslim way of life. I should also point out that one does not see the physically or mentally disabled in Muslim countries. The blind, those in wheelchairs, they are all kept from view. You keep all such “imperfection” hidden, out of shame. This is the reality of Islam. But this is not what is spouted in every mosque on the corner of every block in every Muslim country in the Islamic world by angry shouting fiery-eyed mullahs every Friday midday. No, those anguished men, full of simplistic black and white distinctions as to what is right and what is wrong, vent their spleen against the entire West, when in fact it is themselves whom they ought to hurl from cliff-tops, and NOT decent homosexuals here in the West – or the vast numbers of homosexuals and lesbians in your own lands. The way you treat your own homosexual citizens is medieval. Bow your head in shame, Rahman. And, now, with REAL humility, not the fake variety you paraded earlier, go back to the top of this thread and make a list of the questions that have been put to you. We continue to await your answers. 0 Reply Harvey 26 Nov 2009, 8:53pm Clearly there are a number of gay bigots here towards anything else. Least the man had the guts to come and debate. There are some on here that ok clearly disagreed but didn’t feel the need to nasty instead of keeping it to the debate it was. There is in no way a suggestion that I applaud his bigotry, if you bother to read you will see that I have stated I disagree with him. Thats my right as well as yours. I guess to insult someone just because they may have maybe agreed in principle what you have said in passed comments but disagreed with the way you express it is just easy fodder. Maybe its just your lack of being able to communicate with anyone who doesn’t do or say the same thing as you. Life would be boring that way. Maybe your just an angry person that sees red in every non-gay direction. At least I can keep an open mind on how to debate, how to express. You get nowhere being angry all the time and indeed in a debate once you get angry and insult – no matter what – you’ve lost the arguement. People respond better to a good educational debate, which may get heated granted but never to the point of being offensive. 0 Reply Eddy 26 Nov 2009, 8:57pm Will, at #129, wrote: “wasn’t Mohammed a paedophile too? I suppose if your ‘great prophet’ likes to bang up 6 year old girls, you probably are quote an authority on paedophilia. . . He was 52 and she was 9.” Will! I bow my head in embarrassment! How could I have missed the opportunity to make such an excellent observation! Yes, “it is written”, as Muslims like to say, that their holy prophet Mohammed got it into his head to BANG UP a young girl when she was just 6 years old, and then 3 years later he carried out the deed and gave it to her. And his ardent followers now give lectures upon paedophilia! It’s f***ing hysterical when you think about it! 0 Reply Keith 26 Nov 2009, 9:00pm #125. RAHMAN. “…Leaders of Islamic world are free from such deprivity. Allahu Akbar!…” Eh..? What planet are you on? And by the way, the word is spelt with an ‘a’ because if you were to use the past participle you’d get ‘deprived’ which is summat else entirely, numpty. DEAR PINKNEWS PEEPS…! Can you not see that this tit is just on here winding you all up? Cross the street.! Do a Dionne Warwick and “Walk on by..” He’s a chump and a VERY dangerous one at that a la Adolf Hitler Leave him playing with himself. Keith. x 0 Reply Harvey 26 Nov 2009, 9:04pm I repeat a comment I made before, Some of your comments are vile and a disgrace. You seem to want to fight fire with fire, kinda gets ya nowhere. I repeat some of you on here are no different from vile man this story is originally about. 0 Reply Eddy 26 Nov 2009, 9:08pm Harvey, at #130, wrote: “Some of you on here should hang your heads in shame at the way you behave. Some of your actions can only be best discribed as a lynch mob intend on discrediting anyone whose opinions differ from your own.” Harvey, you need to think more deeply about what some people have written here. How dare this bigoted Muslim appear in this Forum, OUR FORUM, and dictate that we should respect a belief system that holds that YOU and I are evil and should be hurled from cliff-tops, or be hung or decapitated in public! Harvey, I strongly suspect that you have absolutely no idea of the reality of Islam. In fact you may be one of those Westerners who think it enchanting, colourful, and exotic, a wondrous thing of Ali Baba and The Forty Thieves, the Arabian Nights, The Theif of Baghdad, and so forth. Get real, Harvey. Go find yourself a job in an Islamic country, live in an apartment in amongst the Muslims like I and others have done, and stick it for as long as you can bear it once the novelty has worn off and you’re sick of being abused by horny frustrated Muslim men, and THEN you will have the right to tick us off. In the meantime you are coming over as a bend-over-backward woolly-minded white unthinking liberal, of the sort who has allowed these people to spawn their religious nonsense in private Islamic schools in this country and to send their young men off to terrorist training camps in order to come back and blow us all up for the love of Allah! Surely, Harvey, you have seen this on television. Surely you have watched the video footage of these pathetic young “British” Muslims sitting in front of their video-cameras stating why they are about to go on their suicide-missions for the glory of Allah! Now, get real, Miss Proops! 0 Reply Eddy 26 Nov 2009, 9:17pm Harvey, #135, you wrote “I may not agree with the man but my God, least I don’t feel the need to be vile and just plain nasty”. Unfortunately you gravely mistake justified assertion and refusal to tow the line demanded by a bigot as being “vile and just plain nasty”. Harvey, you need to become a fighter. I notice you refer to “God” in your judgement above. Hmmm. I suspect you are a meek soul. Probably a very nice one. But the problem with being a nice white English person, Harvey, is that Muslims of the arrogant variety (and let us remember there are SOME, not many, who are broadminded and benign) will walk all over you. 0 Reply Eddy 26 Nov 2009, 9:20pm Harkowitz, #142, I like it! “the intellectually deficient meme of religion is not comparable to human traits such as sexuality or gender.” 0 Reply Harvey 26 Nov 2009, 9:24pm Again if you had read any of my threads you’ll learn that I have dated 2 Muslims, so am well aware, maybe more than you about the dangers. You seem to also forget that while sure they have these hateful belief we are luckily enough in this country to have gay Muslims who are aware but are please to be able to live as they are. We have to be careful that when we talk about this subject that indeed there are many who don’t agree with these Isamic extremists. A lot of times I see that some of you blame all Muslims when theat simply isn’t case. You can’t taint everyone with the same brush. I get upset when I still hear that apparently all men sleep with every man they see. Is it true, in most cases no. I have lived and had to be moved from an area because of in some cases extreme racism and homophobia against me so please so be an idiot and tell me I don’t know what I’m talking about. My point about being disrespectful is because most of you are not giving the Muslims esp gay Muslims who have to hear your hatred. They have been lucky enough to be free ( as much as they can) without fear of being labelled, they have an opinion too. Maybe give those people some thought before you spout you hatred towards Rahman. Show some support and maybe realise that for some it may have been more difficult than you can imagine for then to be themselves. 0 Reply Will 26 Nov 2009, 9:25pm Harvey, I find your statements most confusing…. one minute you demand civility, and then proceed to attack any others with an opposing, and logical, argument to than Rahman’s offensive, bigoted and very ill-informed statements. And you do it almost in the same sentence! Your attempts to disguise your own anger in pop physiology only prove you lack any finesse, and are quite frankly pathetic. Your hypocrisy is offensive and somewhat belies your own issues. 0 Reply Will 26 Nov 2009, 9:29pm “It’s f***ing hysterical when you think about it!” You said it. Nothing is more offensive to an intellect than a pretentious religious zealot that can’t even see the hypocrisy of their own statements. Hypocrisy, after all, is the recourse of a weak mind. 0 Reply Eddy 26 Nov 2009, 9:30pm Oh, somebody, please, I’ve gotta go out for a couple of hours. Could somebody do a bit of research on any one of the hundreds of human rights sites there are and feed this namby-pamby Harvey a list of URLs so he can get a glimpse of the reality that this Rahman is coming from. Or, Harvey, get yourself over to a Muslim website, the sort of Muslim website that decries the west as being full of infidels and YOU and I should be killed for being gay. See how you’ll fare there. Then come back and tell us. Good night, all. Oh, and Rahman, we’re still waiting for your answers to the questions that have been put to you. 0 Reply Keith 26 Nov 2009, 9:34pm HARVEY #146. I am glad, HARVEY, that you came on later at #146 because I could not be bothered to trawl through all the ‘defence of Rahman’ crap to get to what you wrote, and which I read, earlier today.. also, by the way, crap. What are you.? The Eichmann to this crud-head..? Rahman’s Goebbels.? His Goering.? His Dr. Mengele, maybe? He is dangerous, very dangerous indeed and free speech, in his case, is a forfeited privilege in the same way that Herr Hitler’s free speech would be curtailed today were he alive and spoutin’…the world, having the knowledge and the hindsight it now has, rivers of blood too late. Get real, Harvey. Recognise mania and evil when you see it. Keith. SALFORD 0 Reply Rahman 26 Nov 2009, 9:37pm Dear Harvey ( November 26, 2009 @ 20:15), I really, deeply, appreciate your comment. You seem to be a real English gentleman, a person with such superior ethics as Voltaire’s. Thank you VERY much! 0 Reply Eddy 26 Nov 2009, 9:38pm Ah, right! Thanks, Harvey, for reminding us. I remember you! Months back, eh? You’re the guy with a soft spot for Muslim c**k, to put it crudely! :-) So, yes, you have experience with those poor poor gay Muslims who have to live their lives in secrecy or be ditched by their community. Good for you for the good work you have done with the chaps you have met. I understand your sympathy for them. I’ve seen gay Muslims in the Middle East in tears myself! I know what a horror life is for them. I know several who have spent years in jail just for being caught at private gay drinks party (no alcohol even!). AND IT IS BECAUSE OF THAT HORROR, Harvey, that I reserve my right to speak my mind and to speak openly here in our free and open land. No one has used foul or disgusting name-calling or suchlike to this Rahman. We have instead spoken our minds and spoken strongly and we are entitled to do so, and do so we should. (And this time I really am off! Night. Night.) 0 Reply Will 26 Nov 2009, 9:45pm “I really, deeply, appreciate your comment. You seem to be a real English gentleman, a person with such superior ethics as Voltaire’s.” Classic! Simply classic! This, in logical deduction, is referred to as an “appeal to flattery”, a specific type of appeal to emotion, where an argument is made due to the use of flattery to gather support. Its a classic diversionary technique, what managers refer to as “divide and conquer”. It, of course, usually imply the lack of ability to address the issue at hand. Clearly Rahman is incapable of logical discourse. Not really any surprise, but mildly amusing non the less. 0 Reply Harkowz 26 Nov 2009, 9:51pm Harvey, you’re right that not all Muslims believe the extremist dogma and don’t deserve to be painted with the same brush. But that doesn’t mean you can’t criticize religion for the bile it is. 0 Reply Harvey 26 Nov 2009, 9:56pm Thank you Eddy and all my respect to you too. I have done my bit for international relations. My whole point lads and lassies is that we’re not the only ones who listen to what these Islamic extremist say. They are wrong we should feel bigger because we have gotten to where we are and we are very lucky to do so. There are plenty of gay Muslims in This country who can’t escape these the vile words of people like Abu Usamah and not only have to dread being labelled with the same brush but also many simply won’t ever ‘come out’ because of fear of what will happen to them. Many will be still be victimised, subject to homophobia and be left with absolutely nothing. Many turn to suicide. This is in the UK where the law says they can be gay. They have to fight their beliefs and their feelings. I have never kidded myself on the nastiness of these people. Guess I just get annoyed when I see that sometimes we are no better and forget those who struggle of the same faith. 0 Reply Rahman=Harvey=Monkeychops 26 Nov 2009, 10:06pm Father Andrew Gentry FCSF:- We seem to make ourselves victims with regards to churches way too much! These churchs should be applauded for there stance! 0 Reply Jean-Paul Bentham 26 Nov 2009, 10:12pm yawn. 0 Reply JohnK 26 Nov 2009, 10:18pm There is nothing polite or dignified about extremism . . . Rahman may be fooling himself that he is righteous, courteous and a victim . . . however We see how ignores pointed questions ! We see how he plays games ! We see how he has the sincerity of a viper. ! He may be living in his own “Delusion” . . . we can see right through it. 0 Reply Jean-Paul Bentham 26 Nov 2009, 10:23pm French gay soccer team snubbed by Muslim team By The Associated Press 10.07.2009 7:00am EDT (Paris) A French gay soccer team says its members were victims of homophobia when a team of Muslim players refused to play a match against them. The Paris Foot Gay team says Tuesday it received an e-mail from the Creteil Bebel club canceling a match scheduled for last Sunday. “Because of the principles of our team, which is a team of devout Muslims, we can’t play against you,” the e-mail said, according to Paris Foot Gay. The e-mail received Saturday said, “Our convictions are much more important than a simple football match.” Paris Foot Gay said in a statement that it asked the amateur league to sanction Creteil Bebel. Zahir Belgarbi, identified as a spokesman for Creteil Bebel, told France-Info radio he apologized if “anyone felt upset or hurt.” 0 Reply Harvey 26 Nov 2009, 10:29pm Not sure how a comment made for the different faiths in Liverpool actually condemning the homophobic violence in the area is being used here? 0 Reply 21stCenturySpirituality 26 Nov 2009, 10:30pm Rahman, your praise is appreciated, but you do seem to have neglected to respond to the issues and questions I’ve raised in comment 98 and 100. I appreciate that you have been a bit swamped with questions here but I would be grateful if you could respond to and discuss my points in relation to this news item and islamic fundamentalism and extremism. 0 Reply Rahman 26 Nov 2009, 10:43pm “Inhumanity is part and parcel of the Muslim way of life.” If that would be the case, Islam would never appear in the world. The reality is just opposite to such false accusation: from a few hundreds followers of Noble Prophet Muhammad (peace be with him), Islam became MIGHTY world’s power of over 1.5 billion Muslims. The increase of Muslim population on Earth continued because Islam is the Noble Religion of Mankind! There is nothing more beautiful in the world then Muslim way of life – Peaceful, Noble, Profound and Sincere appreciation of God’s Love and Care for Mankind. Allahu Akbar! 0 Reply JohnK 26 Nov 2009, 10:57pm Yawn Yawn Yawn . . . Yes Yes Yes Rahman . . . we see that you are a Proselytizing Muslim We are unsure if you are proselytizing Muslim extremist – or just An attention seeker – Either way Pious Proselytizing Pomposity . . . is sending us to sleep Yawn Yawn Yawn 0 Reply Will 26 Nov 2009, 10:59pm “The increase of Muslim population on Earth continued because Islam is the Noble Religion of Mankind!” Is that all you can do, spout pompous rhetoric about how great your benevolence religion is? Have you NO ability to address the hypocrisy of your statements? Your protestations only lend to the idea you are incapable of any thought that doesn’t involve blind faith, and that your religion isn’t as “great” as you claim. Your error is your assume us all as stupid as you to be as so blind to the reality of Islam. If it was so “peaceful”, why are Muslim countries in the world so devoid of human rights and democracy? Was it “noble” of Iran to hang innocent people? How “profound” is a call of “death to the infidel”? And how “sincere” is your faith when it denies basic human freedoms? You’re wasting your time in here, we’ve seen your type before…. dull and repetitive, and undeservedly sanctimonious. 0 Reply nuriboy 26 Nov 2009, 11:04pm These threads bore me so much. Religious lunatics… muslim haters… blah blah blah 0 Reply Rahman 27 Nov 2009, 12:11am Respectful 21stCenturySpirituality (November 26, 2009 @ 22:30)! I do agree with you on the rights of freedom of speech, thought, conscience and religion. As I stated earlier, Islam reject any sort of extremism by its very humanistic nature. Islam based on condemnation of oppression, and God very clearly ordered Muslims fight against oppression. When religious people oppressed by governmental powers, it is the duty of every Muslim to fight such oppressive government or even oppressive company of several countries on the world scale. At the current times homosexuals of Europe and America preferred completely disregard the evil deeds of their own governments, especially of the U.K., which has been made against Muslim people in Asia (Iraq and Afghanistan) and in Near East (Palestine). Western homosexual people act in this regard like nothing wrong was done. It is nothing wrong for these Western homosexuals that hundreds thousands human being from infants to elderly were killed by smart, laser-guided bombs from supersonic most modern aircrafts in Iraq and Afghanistan, or even in Pakistan. It is nothing wrong for Western homosexuals that their governments caused escapes of over two millions of women, children and elderly from their home-country Afghanistan to Pakistan or Iran. It is nothing wrong for Western homosexuals that their governments on daily basis oppressing over hundred million Muslim people in Asia with their occupation of Muslim lands. Do I need to continue? No: everybody in the world knows for 100% that and much, much more then that. We all see the photographs of atrocities which have been conducted by Western powers on our Muslim children and women, men and elderly. We, Muslims, do not forget that. Do your Western homosexuals do the same? No, you don’t! I am here to remind you about the reality of evils which your government did to MY Muslim people. I cry over deaths of my Brothers and Sisters too long. I don’t have the tears anymore for my sorrows now… Do your people have any compassion for our oppressed Muslim people, the people oppressed by YOUR government in Iraq and Afghanistan? Apparently, your people don’t have any compassion, any kindness, any mercy, and any tolerance for my Muslim Brothers and Sisters in Asia. I love freedom of speech and thought not less then anybody here. And I do speak what I think is true. I spoke my mind here. And what is result of it? – Avalanches of Hate and Insults I got in most cases. Very few of homosexual persons showed tolerance and consideration for my religious views and opinions. And this happened in the most cultured and most wonderful country of the world – in England…. One homosexual man here even doesn’t want me to address him with the word Respectful. He doesn’t want accept my polite and cultural attitude toward gay community. He wanted the fight. Unfortunately, I greatly dislike all wars, being a man of Peace. As for my expression “…homosexuals, who are persistent in their misdeeds…”, I mean the homosexual persons who completely disregard God’s laws and completely disrespect Islamic laws, who acting out in most insulting and offensive way in Muslim countries. I need to make myself very clear on the subject of homosexuality in the light is Islam. God made very clear request to Muslim people: “If two men among you Are guilty of lewdness, Punish them both. If they repent and amend, Leave them alone; for God Is Oft-returning, Most merciful.” (Holy Koran, Sura IV, Nisaa, 16). As a Muslim, I have no right to present any critique of God’s decision. I must obey His Will. God spoke of lewdness – not of love between two Muslim men. That’s what He means. Nothing else. I do not hate any homosexual person in the world. I feel sorry for him and any others like him. I try my best to be nice and friendly, helpful and compassionate, tolerant and kind for him. Even when I met with very unfriendly words and attitudes, I am controlling myself; even when some homosexual person wanted ignite the anger in me for one malicious intent or another, I am not given up in such trap. It is hard, believe me, and not permit myself to express my outrage against INJUST conduct. But I do my best and trying to avoid ANY conflict. Unfortunately, not all my Muslim-brothers like me. Some of them easily explodes in anger and then all sorts of violence following. I feel sorry for them: they die in great pains, and I live with my pains and sorrows for them all my life…. Salam. 0 Reply Will 27 Nov 2009, 12:25am “As a Muslim, I have no right to present any critique of God’s decision. I must obey His Will.” How convenient for you, not to have to think for yourself, and yet your cling to such arrogance that you think you know the mind of god. You delude yourself. Do not pity us, we have more freedom of mind and thought than you can ever be. Ironic you seem to follow the literal interpretation of your holy book to condemn gay people, and yet you seem able to over look the paedophilia of your “great” Mohammed clearly documented in your texts? Curious, that. Unless you think sex with children is fine…? How does that old expression go, if Mohammed can’t go to the mountain then what, Mohammed will rape a 9 year old girl? Like all religions, you chose to ignore contradiction and select what suits your own bigotry. Its you who is to be pitied, your self inflicted victim status of your last post is sickening. 0 Reply JohnK 27 Nov 2009, 12:34am First it was the . . . “Fundamentalist Christians” Now it’s the . . . “Fundamentalist Muslims” . . . and the one thing that unites them is their Righteous and obsessive hatred of homosexuals 0 Reply Harkowz 27 Nov 2009, 12:53am Rahman, you sound almost identical to some Christians who believe the Bible where it says man shall not lie with man, then love the sinner hate the sin. You must realise that religion is on the wane in Britain and is irrelevant to the majority of people. Anyone who professes to follow god’s will or the bible or quran is largely seen as a fool. 0 Reply Rahman 27 Nov 2009, 1:33am I think noble Imam told the truth that some homosexuals take his words out of context from his past speech. He is not homophobic at all. Islam is much more tolerant religion then Judaism or Christianity in relation to homosexuals because in the Holy Koran we do not have principle to kill all homosexuals. God told us to forgive some homosexuals who are sorry for their misdeeds. But some homosexuals, who are persistent in their misdeeds and who are nasty, who systematically disrespect all Muslims and all God’s laws, shall be subject of punishment. God did not said they should be killed. I am sure a reasonable fine would be sufficient punishment. As history indicates, we can have various types of Shariah, and we don’t need in modern times any judge with mentality of 7th century warrior Muslim. I personally do not see all homosexuals as my enemies. No, not at all. Some homosexuals are really nice and intelligent persons, and it is pleasure to discuss various issues with them. Unfortunately, some homosexuals are very aggressive and disrespectful to Muslims and our Noble Riligion, and this caused many very sad events. Salam to everybody 0 Reply Rahman 27 Nov 2009, 1:47am To: Harkowz (November 27, 2009 @ 0:53). In U.K. statistics on religious people is: Christian (Anglican, Roman Catholic, Presbyterian, Methodist) 71.6%, Muslim 2.7%, Hindu 1%, other 1.6%, unspecified or none 23.1% (2001 census). What this says to any person who knows simple mathematics? It means that 76.9% of U.K. are religious people – those who believe in God. The great MAJORITY of the country considers religion perfectly relevant to their life and society, and any person who does not believe in God as a fool. Now, take a look yourself: what kind person you are in the light of FACTS. Have a good night. 0 Reply Harkowz 27 Nov 2009, 2:01am Rahman is nuts. He actually believes “Islam is much more tolerant religion then Judaism or Christianity…because in the Holy Koran we do not have principle to kill all homosexuals” You do understand that the West doesn’t have RELIGIOUS law. Religion has no place in law or government so it doesn’t matter wht the Old or New Testamants say. Islam rules many countries though, in the form of Sharia law, eg the Islamic States of Pakistan Iran Afghanistan Saudi Arabia Yemen Mauritania Oman Bahrain Britain officially disestablished the church from the state about 100 years ago, something which these countries have yet to do: Algeria Bangladesh Egypt Iraq Kuwait Libya Malaysia Maldives Morocco Qatar Tunisia United Arab Emirates In those countries, you will be subject to “punishment” as Rahman puts it, for contradicting Islam by being gay: “some homosexuals, who are persistent in their misdeeds and who are nasty, who systematically disrespect all Muslims and all God’s laws, shall be subject of punishment. This is centuries old way of life. And they have the nerve to demand cultural equivalency! Hey guys, as Rahman says, “I am sure a reasonable fine would be sufficient punishment.” And you thought it was bad there were 1,500 complaints in America for 2 guys kissing on TV! “Unfortunately, some homosexuals are very aggressive and disrespectful to Muslims and our Noble Riligion, and this caused many very sad events. That sounds like a threat. Suicide bombers at dawn at the local gay club? 0 Reply Jean-Paul Bentham 27 Nov 2009, 2:05am Raymon In your post 102, in answer to one of my questions, you said: “I think inciting violence is not legal in the UK” What is there to think about? Don’t you know? Everybody else knows; I know…and you also know that it is illegal to incite violence in the UK. There are no “if’s” or “but’s” about it….it is a fact that you know, and that we all know, OK? Look Raymond, lad, University College London has cancelled a speech by a homophobic Islamic cleric. That’s it; get over it. Abu Usamah will not be giving a “charity” speech at University College London. Toss that around in your head for awhile; put it any way you like under pretext that you are “thinking”, and get over it. Likewise, not too long ago, the UK refused entrance to Ralph Phelps and family because they are known to have a record of inciting violence. Finally, Raymond, if you really know that “generally Muslim women possess equal rights with Muslim men.” (your post 117), then you are the only person in the entire world to know it, and that’s a lot more than two continents. 0 Reply Harkowz 27 Nov 2009, 2:10am To: Rahman (November 27, 2009 @ 1:47) “In U.K. statistics on religious people is: Christian (Anglican, Roman Catholic, Presbyterian, Methodist) 71.6%, Muslim 2.7%, Hindu 1%, other 1.6%, unspecified or none 23.1% (2001 census). What this says to any person who knows simple mathematics? It means that 76.9% of U.K. are religious people – those who believe in God. Economist/YouGov Poll, 2008: Do you believe there is a God? 39% Yes I do 36% No I don’t 25% Not sure Visit any English town and city and ask who is religious. You will be shocked. 0 Reply Jean-Paul Bentham 27 Nov 2009, 2:27am No self-respecting muslim would go onto a gay website and spend two days blabbing away like this. What must his community think of him, if he has one? This guy is starting to sound familiar. Sounds like our old thread-disruptor Monkeychops or Sugar Plum Fairy or Trigilaster, Balthazzar, and now Rahman and Harvey. All one and he same guy, mentally ill and all alone, but a real good disruptor. Works every time. 0 Reply Harkowz 27 Nov 2009, 2:36am There are a lot of nuts out there. 0 Reply 21stCenturySpirituality 27 Nov 2009, 3:02am Namaste Rahman, I hear what you say. I repeat what I said earlier, that I stand against discrimination and prejudice wherever I find it and whatever form it takes. I took part in protests on the streets against the war in Iraq. I have taken part in peace marches and other events aimed at promoting interfaith dialogue, social justice, tolerance and respect for different peoples and cultures. There are many gay men and women who campaign and fight for peace, justice, equality and the alleviation of suffering for everyone in this world in many ways and many fields of human endeavour, Rahman. What a shame you dont realise or acknowledge that in what you say of ‘western homosexuals’. I find your sweeping generalisation somewhat disrespectful to GLBT people who give their time to many worthy causes in this world. You cannot blame a whole people or a whole section of a society for the actions of its government. I dont blame all americans for the fact that George Bush was an idiot who probably shouldnt even have been given a driving licence let alone a presidency. But were all human, and we all mess up sometimes and I think we should try to remember that and be a little more gentle with each other sometimes. I understand how you feel but I did not put the people into 10 downing street or the Whitehouse who helped to create the circumstances and conditions you describe, and I have not fired a single bullet or dropped a single bomb in your country & neither has anyone here. So when you talk about Gods Laws, who tells you what these are? If I affectionately hold my life partners hand in the street or embrace him on my doorstep is it right that I should recieve 100 lashes for doing so? There is currently a case, which I believe has been reported on pink news recently, where three young Iranian men are facing the death penalty for having sexual relations. Could you comment on this please? http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2009/11/09/three-iranian-men-on-death-row-for-homosexuality-offences-2/ 0 Reply Rahman 27 Nov 2009, 6:37am To: 21stCenturySpirituality. Salam. God’s Laws clearly written in Holy Koran, and no Muslim in the world permitted to ignore it. As I stated earlier, God did not told Muslims how to punish two adult Muslim men who maliciously violate His Order. The matter left in discretion of Muslim community, headed by Imam. If you and other person agreed with the principle of decency in public, you should comply with rule of law. If you don’t, you became subject of judicial authority. This is the matter universally upheld in all human societies for thousands years of human existence. As for the case with three Iranian men, I have no information about their fate. I don’t know the circumstances under which they were arrested and all current charges. In my opinion, if this case related to their homosexual conducts only, they should not be held in prison and should not be subjected to any physical punishment. Imposition of fine would be the proper punishment for first time offense. When I said earlier about Western homosexuals, I meant their majority. I agree with you that some Western homosexuals are sensitive to sufferings of Muslim people from evil deeds of their governments, and opposing all wars. I do appreciate such individuals and especially your humanistic standing for innocent victims of inhuman activities of British and American governments in Asia. Large numbers of homosexual politicians who are heads of various homosexual organizations in the Western world are thinking in very antagonistic way about Islam and Muslim people. Political homosexuals in the Western world are thinking that only they have the right to talk to various nations of the world. This is not true. Muslims have the same right to propaganda their religion anywhere in the world. In accordance to our religious philosophy we oppose any recognition of homosexual unions, which now going under name of “same sex marriages”. We oppose any involvement of homosexuals in child care matters, private or public. We certainly oppose acceptance of homosexuals in army and police forces, in any judicial establishments, and any position in power in any country of the world. We certainly oppose the spread of homosexual pornography and homosexual prostitution in any country of the world. All of such oppositions based on our religion as God ordered for Mankind. It is not decisions of our Muslim leaders, imams and sheikhs, because it is decisions of God, as He clearly ordered to Mankind and as He expressed His Will in Holy Koran. Homosexuals in Western world would not think that they could affect the world affairs. Such influence never will be the case with Islamic Nations in the world. Our jurisprudence established on the Order of God for the past 14 century and it could not be subject of changes under man-made laws, conventions or declarations of so-called “human rights”. Such declarations or conventions of “human rights” were created by monopolistic, oppressive and essentially anti-Islamic governments of the Untied States of America and United Kingdom. How our Islamic Nations could follow ideas which violate principles and laws of our Religion of Islam? That’s not possible for over 1.5 billion of Muslim people of the world. Our views on the nature of female beings are different from Western people. Our views on maturation of human being and on human sexuality are different also. We cannot be monkey or parrots of American libertines. That’s absolutely impossible in our Islamic countries. So, please try to understand our philosophy which is based on God’s laws. We do not want to oppress you, and therefore don’t attempt to oppress us with your libertarian inventions. Your governments made a lot of commercial privileges to some countries which follow your libertarian and anti-Islamic international policy. On one side of the matter, your Western governments talking about equality in world’s governmental entities, but on another hand your Western governments deny to Muslims governments such equality and all commercial benefits which were granted to anti-Islamic countries. The sample of such most inhuman and immoral country in the world as Communist China is the case. Where is your collective Western world’s morality? Your Western world does not have morality because you violate your own principles in the international economic affairs. This is the reason why nations in all Islamic countries do not trust your Western governments on any issue whatsoever. Do you think that Western world can conquer our Islamic world with your materialistic means? This never will be the case. The case in the history is failures of British government’s policies in Asia and Africa. I must end my writing now. Salam. 0 Reply Will 27 Nov 2009, 9:04am “in the Holy Koran we do not have principle to kill all homosexuals” Maybe someone should share this with the Iranian and Saudi governments then, eh? They love nothing than a good hanging for innocent gay people. Maybe they’re reading another book…. lets face it, its all the same nonsense, just in a different order. “some homosexuals are very aggressive and disrespectful to Muslims and our Noble Riligion” Yeah, well get over it… its called freedom of speech. Something Muslim countries could do with. Its why your once great empires are noting but dust bowls. Lets be honest here, it it wasn’t for oil you’d all be starving. This your great Islam Theocracy? Now, I must go pray to Mohammed the paedophile and use his enlightened words to justify ramming a plane into a tall building…. its tough work but its gods word. 0 Reply Harvey 27 Nov 2009, 9:14am Jean-Paul:- mentally ill and all alone eh? Or maybe I just have my own thoughts and have the right to speak it without your talent for personal insults. Least I don’t feel I have to follow the sheep! Baa! Get used to it and furthermore Get over yaself! 0 Reply Harvey 27 Nov 2009, 9:16am Congratulations Will you and others have proved your just as bad as Rahman and incited hatred. You must be very proud. 0 Reply Will 27 Nov 2009, 9:33am Harvey, get a life. Your pretentious defence of all this religious nonsense for the sake of it is offensive. When someone tell me that they know the Miocene of god, it means one of two things (1) they’re in need of medical help or (2) they seek to oppress the rights of others Either way, its needs to be challenged. Mr. Rahman here does noting but preach the degradation of gays and anyone not bowing to Islam, and I will NEVER capitulate to that. Have I said anything that is a lie? Mohammed did promote paedophilia, its why their religion is used to defend child rape and child brides. I don’t care it they think its right or not, children have rights too, and not to be raped is one of them. Did a plane not fly into the world trade centre in the name of Allah? Is there ANYTHING I’m missing here, Harvey? If you have an issue with these, I suggest reading a book to enlighten your mind, rather blindly defending someone right to preach un-proven nonsense and bigotry over the right of others to pick fault with religion. You seem to offer little, but have some right to demean anyone that challenges a religion…. well, tough. Thankfully I live in a country where my hand wont’ be cut off for questioning and my thoughts are my own. When you have something intelligent to contribute, other than silly insults, Harvey, I’m all ears. You are clearly here to promote your own religious agenda, not rations discourse. I have every right to fault Islam, and its hypocrisy, as I do any religion, as well as your own hypocrisy, Harvey. 0 Reply Harvey 27 Nov 2009, 9:46am Don’t ever remember defending this religion. Seems to come so easy for you to judge and offend others. You have spouted vile disrespectful hatred and lets hope you disgusting drivel hasn’t cause a needless homophobic attack. You are no better than the man this story is about. You have shown your true self and YES you have in affect incited hatred. Hope you can deal with it. Though for people like you throwing insults is all you can do, low and behold anyone different. 0 Reply Harvey 27 Nov 2009, 9:50am Will:- you have done nothing but preach the degradation of all Muslims! With the nasty Catholic Church abuse story it would seem they are not the only ones. You clearly have Judged without reading anything properly so how can anyone win when they make it up as they go along. Get off your high horse and get over yaself. Clearly you hatred shows you need help. Not much of a life if its full of the hatred you spout is it! 0 Reply Will 27 Nov 2009, 9:57am No Harvey, I haven’t. To criticising the belief of a religion, or its right to oppress, is not hate. Its democracy and freedom of thought. The right to practice a religion and religions freedoms is not the right to immunity to criticism or impunity to accountability. I suggest you get your facts straight, and move out of that narrow space in your head that confuses religious freedom with religious authority. 0 Reply Harvey 27 Nov 2009, 10:00am Your a sad little man and quite frankly you small little brain has gotten Very boring! You don’t know how to debate without insults and hatred. You want people to be tolerant with you but show you as a person don’t deserve it. Nuff said, End of! 0 Reply Will 27 Nov 2009, 10:12am “Your a sad little man and quite frankly you small little brain has gotten Very boring!” Oh, bravo! When faced with an intelligent statement, you return to your usual MO of insulting. What’s wrong, Harvey, was it too complicated for you to understand? Not enough smarts? Well done Harvey, proving my point earlier that you are a small minded and foolish little hypocrite! You sir, a are buffoon. 0 Reply Terry 27 Nov 2009, 10:17am @Harvey – who made you king moderator of free speech on this site, you twat???? How about an contribution rather than insulting? You could do with looking up “tolerance” in the dictionary and practice what you claim to preach, mate! I’m with Will on this one, religious tolerance is not a one way street, and so far I see little of it from the organised religions. 0 Reply Terry 27 Nov 2009, 10:24am Its worth saying this again Harvey, Will put it nicely – The right to practice a religion and religions freedoms is not the right to immunity to criticism or impunity to accountability. Don’t you support the right to criticise religion Harvey, or is democracy not your forte? 0 Reply Harvey 27 Nov 2009, 10:28am Of course you are Terry. Yawn, we get it you and Will hate all things religious. I stick to my point with you and the like noone is allowed a different opinion because it doesn’t go along with yours. So much for freedom of speech. I ain’t apologising for having MY OWN point of view. I know a lot of gay people think other gay pwople with their own mind is wrong but like I say get used to it. I repeat I have agreed with many point, i just disagree with the distasteful why you CHOICE to express them. You don’t like so you insult and degrade. This is MY CHOICE and am NOT sorry I have my own opinion. I clearly is what makes me unique from the like of the sheep like you. 0 Reply Will 27 Nov 2009, 10:34am “Yawn, we get it you and Will hate all things religious” You’re not very bright, are you? Criticism of religion is not hating it. Good lord, Get an education, man, its embarrassing watching you dig a hole here! The only “yawn” around here is you and your dull bitchy little statements. Well done on promoting the stereotype, Harvey. Now, don’t you have some good books to colour in? 0 Reply Terry 27 Nov 2009, 10:36am LOL@Will #195 Harvey = Hypocrite. And is it a wonder to any of us why you blindly support religion. How sad. 0 Reply Harvey 27 Nov 2009, 10:36am Democracy Also means while you may not agree with anything religious and we can debate it but you Don’t have the right to take away a persons belief if they are religious. I believe in God that is MY choice, I don’t believe in most of the religious texts again MY choice. I will happily debate the issues but I won’t slag someone off because of it or insult who they choose to worship. 0 Reply Harvey 27 Nov 2009, 10:40am Terry, you’ve just proved you make it up as you go along. I have written several times my views on religion. It seems you expect me to say sorry and change my mind to your way of thinking. I was brought up to think for myself and thats the way it will remain. Im a man with my own mind, boo hoo get over it! Life would be a damn sight more boring if we all became the sheep you and Will expect us to be. 0 Reply Rich 27 Nov 2009, 10:40am Catching up on this thread…. whooooo, 196 comments and rising! A record? Harvey, quit being a bitter old cow sweetie, its demeans us all. Try. Say. Something. Constructive. Rahman, cant you answer anything put to you? I think you’re a bot, and koran spouting bot. Terry (196), couldnt agree more mate 0 Reply Terry 27 Nov 2009, 10:42am Snore! Bitch, bitch, bitch. Is that ALL you can do? Harvey, when you started to insult those with something valid to say, you lost credibility. So, boo hoo yourself, you selfserving twat! 0 Reply Harvey 27 Nov 2009, 10:49am Wake up and see its people like you who give people the excuse to hate gay people. Your too closed minded and don’t contribute with anything interesting. Your nothing but bitter old queens in a strop coz you can’t things your own way. You may insult me but maybe in some way my points have made this page ‘A record’and kept it goin. A difference of opinion clearly not as dull. Anyway sadly this headline is old so unlike some who like to live in the past I’m moving to New stories. Good luck in you misery. 0 Reply Will 27 Nov 2009, 10:53am This is becoming tiresome. Harvey, you’re beyond any salvation. You’re small minded hypocrite, and as such are beneath my efforts to engage you on any intellectual level. While you bander about histrionic insults, you are only going to receive ridicule. And quite deservedly so. 0 Reply Terry 27 Nov 2009, 10:55am “Your nothing but bitter old queens in a strop coz you can’t things your own way” “Your too closed minded and don’t contribute with anything interesting.” Are you describing yourself here???? Using a mirror to write this? LOL, you’re a pathetic hypocrite. 0 Reply Rich 27 Nov 2009, 10:58am 203!!!!!! Thanks to Harvey the Queen! LOL 0 Reply 21stCenturySpirituality 27 Nov 2009, 1:28pm Rahman, well I’m sorry to say that I feel that you are using your religion to justify your prejudices and your oppression of and discrimination against gay men and women. I repeat the point I made earlier, that: “as a person of faith and a man of God I am deeply disturbed by people who claim to be speaking for God when they talk about conducting abhorent (and ungodly) acts of cruelty and of excluding and oppressing people, or fostering and promoting intolerance and prejudice towards others. Where is the nobility in that, whether one is a Muslim or a Christian, a Buddhist or a Hindu, or whatever belief system one follows? Such things are very far from the word or will of God.” And… “I stand against discrimination and prejudice wherever I find it and whatever form it takes, and in particular when people use their religion to try to justify such things. God does not join them in their judgements.” Consider also what is being said here… http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J3YOIImOoYM and also here… 0 Reply Will 27 Nov 2009, 1:36pm 21stcenturyspirituality, I quite liked the one on Sam Harris…. very interesting. 0 Reply Will 27 Nov 2009, 1:36pm …..sorry meant to say thank you as well…. 0 Reply Neville 27 Nov 2009, 2:11pm Rahman well illustrates the fact that religious faith is a mental illness. 0 Reply Eddy 27 Nov 2009, 3:32pm Rahman at #166 claimed: “from a few hundreds followers of Noble Prophet Muhammad (peace be with him), Islam became MIGHTY world’s power of over 1.5 billion Muslims. The increase of Muslim population on Earth continued because Islam is the Noble Religion of Mankind!” NO, NO, NO, Rahman! The reason where there are 1.5 billion Muslims crawling over the face of this earth is because your particular religion is currently the “best” religion in the world at indoctrinating its followers. Five times a day every day of the year you must get down your mat, face Mecca, and renew the brainwash! And IN CASE a Muslim happens to forget to get down on his little prayer-mat five times a day and face Mecca, there is a bloody great loudspeaker rigged up on the top of the minaret of the mosque on the corner of the block to remind him. Five times a day that damned loudspeaker starts up with that strangulated prayer-call! It cannot be escaped. Unless a Muslim gets Western experts in to totally sound-proof his home and brick up all the windows, that directive cannot be escaped! And at Friday midday ONE WHOLE HOUR of the mad Mullah RANTING about sin and evil cannot be escaped either. I used to put sealed head-phones on and listen to music to drown out the hour-long sermon/rant each Friday midday! So, Rahman, these are the reasons why there are “1.5 billion Muslims”. It’s absolutely NOTHING to do with Islam being “Noble”, as you have claimed, and EVERYTHING to do with all-out brainwash from birth. 0 Reply Rahman 27 Nov 2009, 3:40pm To: 21stCenturySpirituality. Respectful Sir, Please permit me to ask a simple question. Did I ever made personally negative remark in your direction? I think I don’t. I am not a user of my religion; I am professing it from the bottom of my heart. I follow God’s Laws as they made in Holy Koran – nothing more then this. That’s not my fault if you reject Islam and with it my person. But just ask the question for yourself: who gave you the right to reject Islam together with followers of Islam? Muslims doesn’t using Islam for anything, they follow Islam because of their absolute sincere Faith in God. That’s have nothing to do with any prejudice, discrimination and oppression of anybody. There are the facts that I never oppress any gay or women, that I never prejudice any gay or women, and I never discriminate any gay or women. Being Muslim, I follow Islam and therefore I cannot in principle violate my Religion which rejects any oppression, any prejudice and thing like that. Human being is not created to be an enemy of God but to be His child, with Love and Devotion for God. The freedom of soul should never going against God’s Will, and this means that no man have no right to insult God and His religious person. For insult punishment is severe in Islam – that’s the fact. On this site many gays insulting my person and all Muslims like me just because of my Religion Islam. Who gave them permission to exploit the U.K.’ law on freedom of speech in order to insult me and my fellow Muslims? Nobody. Many gays on this site use Internet for expression of their insults not only on Muslims like me but for expression of their insults on their own gays. The latest victim is Harvey. His insulters are Will, Terry, Harkowz and Jean-Paul Bentham. In real life such insulters would be taken in the police station and prosecuted in the court of law. Currently they are enjoying impunity because of difficulties to recognize their actual names and whereabouts. But let’s again get back to your accusations. Did I ever “talk about conducting abhorrent (and ungodly) acts of cruelty and of excluding and oppressing people, or fostering and promoting intolerance and prejudice towards others”? The fact is – I don’t. To the contrary, I am against conducting abhorrent acts of cruelty and oppressing people. In Islam we, Muslims, are preaching brotherhood and obedience to God’s Will. No Muslim allowed to the otherwise. In Islamic countries we don’t have gays with Westerner’s irreligious mentalities. We do have sometimes some Muslims who acting out with homosexual preferences but they are not gays in Western way of this word. Being Muslims, we are not permitted by God to keep homosexually oriented men among us, and we are required by God, in accordance with Koran and our system of jurisprudence, to ask such men about circumstances which led them toward violation of God’s Law. If they repent, we let them go in peace. If they don’t, we punish them in our discretion. There nothing personal about it. Just plain religious objectivity. As for the women, certainly we have the same way to go. Again – nothing personal and all plain objectivity, as our religion requires us to act. Why do you or most Western men and women think that we have to pervert our Religion in order to comply with libertarian and ungodly, in fact – anti-Islamic Western policies under so-called “human rights” declarations and conventions? We cannot pervert our Religion and we cannot pervert our societies, the way of our Islamic life just because you, Westerners, do not like it. That’s not possible objectively: we cannot violate our Religion and we cannot go against God’s Law. On another hand, we are obligated to preach our Religion to Mankind everywhere in the world. That’s our Right. Consequently, we exercise our Right to do so. What’s wrong with it? In my opinion nothing wrong. Salam. 0 Reply JohnK 27 Nov 2009, 3:43pm To add further to Eddy’s pointed observation . . . when ever we go over the 200 mark on these threads, it is normally because we have a fanatic or a fundamentalist on board. . . have you noticed that? . . . and it appears that fundamentalism is the theme that underpins the growth of all the major relgions reporting an increase or surge in their numbers. The sheer bl**dy cheek that they come on to these sites looking to recruit more people . . . as if they haven’t got enough “Automatons” Rahman . . . you won’t find any here!!! 0 Reply Eddy 27 Nov 2009, 4:15pm As Rahman may very well know, in all of the Arab countries one can always find a good number of single white gay men. They are generally older white gay men. Some live and work there all their lives, or at least as long as they possibly can. These single white gay men who live in Arab and/or Muslim countries just ADORE Arab men. Why? Well, I uncovered all sorts of reasons during my many years living and working in Muslim countries. Quite often these single white gay men had had a strong Christian upbringing back in the West and in all that Bible-Study and by way of all those Nativity plays they simply fell in love with dusky, dark, deep olive-skinned Arabs, the sort of man depicted on old Christmas cards, dressed up as a Shepherd or one of The Three Kings, head-dress, full-length white dress, and all. In front of Muslim men these single white gay men simply SWOON. I have seen it time and time again. They can’t help it. It goes right back to their childhoods. All Muslim men must act “like men”. The male culture is extremely macho. Every little Muslim boy is taught that he is made in the likeness of the “Noble Mohammed”. No deviation from this type is permitted. Thus, most Muslim men display facial hair to emphasise masculinity. The longer the beard the better, in their view. The very least a man must do is wear a moustache. In strict Muslim environments any man who dares to shave his upper lip and NOT wear a moustache is in danger of being thought “effeminate”, something of “a lady-boy”. (He’s very likely to find himself being approached by his fellow moustache-bearers for sex – the females being, of course, inaccessible behind their black sacks and veils!) I hope this background will help some people understand why some single white gay men will stick up, seemingly to the death, for Islam. (Just remember it’s actually the c**k they’re enamoured with, and not the “beauty” of the Islamic faith, or justice, or anything else of that ilk!) I have outrageous stories galore about this species of rather pathetic white gay men who adore Arab and/or Muslim men and of who Arab and/or Muslim men very much enjoy taking advantage any time from mid-afternoon onwards! 0 Reply Rahman 27 Nov 2009, 4:21pm I’d like to make one point here. In the Western land, especially in England, your people likes a lot to create idols in form of sculpture of one insignificant for all humanity person or another, and you, Westerners, installing such idols all over your cities and countries, colonies, etc. In our Islamic lands we have none of such idols because we do not worship any human being but God only. I hope readers can now see some very important difference between Islamic and non-Islamic nations. You, Englishmen, are idol-worshippers, while we, Muslims, are not. 0 Reply Neville 27 Nov 2009, 4:25pm Eddy is right. It is sometimes very difficult to avoid being plagued for sex by importunate, Muslim men in any Muslim country. They are sometimes a damned nuisance – so much for their attitude to sex with men. However, if they are caught by the authorities they are in for a very tough time; so much for the rank hypocrisy or Islam. 0 Reply Harvey 27 Nov 2009, 4:28pm Its ok Rayham. What people must not fail to realise is what Will, Terry and Harkowz say, clearly supports what the vile, bigotted BNP have been saying. These 3 have been slamming all for being bigots but have been using exactly the same language. They show their true colours and being that they DO clearly protest the BNP stance can they truely deny there support for the BNP? 0 Reply Neville 27 Nov 2009, 4:29pm I think that our resident, ignorant Muslim will find that it is only the Roman Catholic Church and the Orthodox churches that worship idols. After all, the evil, paedophile Mohammed is too evil to worship – and as for the fairy-tale fool Allah! 0 Reply Rahman 27 Nov 2009, 4:34pm Dear Harvey, I am perfectly agree with your views on those individuals. 0 Reply Eddy 27 Nov 2009, 4:39pm Rahman at #210 wrote: “In Islamic countries we don’t have gays with Westerner’s irreligious mentalities. We do have sometimes some Muslims who acting out with homosexual preferences but they are not gays in Western way of this word.” Wrong, wrong, wrong. WRONG. VERY WRONG. I have lived and worked for many years in your Muslim countries and I KNOW (because I have met them) that you have as MANY homosexuals and lesbians in your society as we have in ours. BUT YOU OPPRESS THEM ALL! How sad it is to see some poor young gay Muslim man walking down a shopping street on a Thursday night with a clearly unhappy expression on his face, with a veiled wife beside him, pushing a pram in front of them both. The gay man in Muslim society really has no other choice. He really has to marry if he wants any respect at all. But that doesn’t stop many of the married ones partying! Oh, no! Ah, secret parties, way out in the desert, under the stars, a great big tent, and a roaring fire, all the carpets rolled out over the sand. You know the scene, Rahman, eh? But have you been to such a party where the Muslim men are dancing with Muslim men, kissing and fondling each other? How wonderful it is to see. But HOW TRAGIC that it is all hidden. Meanwhile back at home, behind the walls, the women are left alone. Including all the lesbian women. And you don’t need me to tell you what THEY get up to when the men are off down at the coffee-shop sucking on a hubble-bubble – hookah, shisha, or nagila – or out in the desert at that night-time party with their boyfriends, do you! Just as in Christian communities, in Muslim communities it’s only the boring religious twats, the ones with the beards and the white dress hitched up well above the ankle to broadcast to the world that they are especially holy, who stay at home with the wife, don’t touch any alcohol, and live the life of a soulless automaton. Homeosexuality and lesbianism in your society, Rahman, is just as widespread as it is here in the West. Get used to it! But in your society, because of your Koran, you repress it and so it is hidden. Perhaps you are such a brainwashed religious person that you are not aware of its existence? We have people like that in our culture too. We just think of them as being rather dead in human terms. They aren’t aware of what they’re missing in life. Deep down you KNOW I am right. You know that the existence of homosexuality and lesbianism is not in accord with The Holy Koran, but you know that it exists just as much in your culture as in ours, that your society has as many homosexual men and women as ours does. We will perhaps BEGIN to respect you, when YOU begin to show signs of accepting and respecting this reality and turning your back on the barbaric and totally unacceptable attitudes of Islam towards homosexuality. 0 Reply Simon Murphy 27 Nov 2009, 4:39pm Rahman is a TROLL people. He’s winding you up. Don’t fall for it. Mohammed was a paedophile. It is written in the Koran. 0 Reply Rahman 27 Nov 2009, 4:41pm In England alone we know over 70% of its population are idol-worshippers. That “only” over two third of the coutnry, “only” great majority of Englishmen. Sad fact, indeed. 0 Reply Neville 27 Nov 2009, 4:47pm Why doesn’t the ignorant Muslim Rahman go to live in Saudi Arabia. I am sure that he will be very much at home there. He clearly does not know what an idol is. Does he mean a statue? Or does he mean the important, historic figures of Buddha destroyed by the vandalistic Taliban. Perhaps he would make a good Taliban recruit; he seems to share a lot of their ignorant prejudices. 0 Reply Rahman 27 Nov 2009, 4:50pm I think U.K. people need to read and study Koran in all schools and universities because current ignorance about Islam is very obvious, and such ignorance regenerated by evil-minded individuals like Simon Murphy. The guy never read Koran but pretending to know it. What a debased hypocrite, Kafir he is…. 0 Reply Neville 27 Nov 2009, 4:54pm Perhaps if Rahman is going to use the word ‘Kafir’ we should call him a ‘dirty wog’! So much for name calling. After all he does espouse an inferior religion. 0 Reply JohnK 27 Nov 2009, 4:55pm Rahman . . . the sad fact is why you want to live in the uk if you do not like the following: * The culture of Western Civilization * Public displays or sculpture * Free-thinking and secular values So why on earth do you live in the UK if you hate and despise it so much? 0 Reply Eddy 27 Nov 2009, 4:56pm Rahman at #213 wrote: “You, Englishmen, are idol-worshippers, while we, Muslims, are not.” Neville, what Rahman meant in #213, I feel fairly certain (but do correct me if I am wrong, Rahman) is that we in the West allow sculpture of the human form and depiction of the human face in our art, while this is NOT permitted in Islam. The only “art” that is permitted in Islam is geometric design! Endless, endless, geometric design. And, of course, geometric design can be beautiful. I’m quite partial to it myself. But geometric design ONLY????? Imagine living only with that. It’s interesting though to consider how Muslims have managed nevertheless to integrate over the last century television, video, and photographs into their world! Hmmm. Naughty, naughty! They’ve moved the barriers there . . . so they can move the barriers with regard to sexuality too, if they want. But let me reiterate the main FACT here. In Islamic society depiction of the human form is not permitted, neither in sculpture nor in painting or drawing. As Rahman has clearly stated above: all focus must be on the Holy Prophet, the Great Mohammed. This partly explains why life in Islamic society is so BARREN and so BLEAK and why so many many Muslim men have confided sadly to me “In Muslim countries you can only work, sleep, eat, and f*** your wife!”. It’s true. Basically, that is all they are permitted. But, as I say, it is NOT all that happens! Hitch up your skirts, Rahman! There’s probably a great big gay party for Muslim men being organised somewhere near YOU tonight! Hey, you need to let your eyes blaze, get the religious police involved, go out into the streets, track ‘em down, find out where they are, and then round them up, throw them into jail, beat the hell out of them and then hang them all! That’s what you get up to with all the homosexuals and lesbians in YOUR society, isn’t it. We know. You’re proud of it. It’s the right and proper thing to do, isn’t it? Why? Because it is the will of Allah. Are you perhaps BEGINNING to see why we gay men and women who are not Muslim, have little respect for Islam? 0 Reply Eddy 27 Nov 2009, 4:59pm JohnK, I don’t think we should assume that Rahman lives in the UK. I don’t believe he has told us where he lives. He could well be accessing this site from abroad. Rahman, would you care to tell us, please? In which country are you currently living? 0 Reply Neville 27 Nov 2009, 5:05pm Thanks,Eddy, I do know about human representation in Muslim art, but what the egregious fool is talking about is the concept of worship. He clearly is not intelligent enough to understand the difference, particularly when he so ignorantly talks about seventy per cent of people in this country worshipping idols. He is a half-educated man. 0 Reply Rahman 27 Nov 2009, 5:07pm In the Western lands some of its inhabitants talking a lot of so-called “Wahhabism”. They like to exploit Western people’s ingnorance about history of Islam and brainwash them with hate toward Muslims. But the fact is that “Wahhabism” does not existed at all. There no single “Wahhabist” in the world, and all these words were invented by anti-Islamic haters. The fact is that in Islam we have many thinkers, and concentrate Islam on one thinker, such as Muhammad ibn Abd-al-Wahhab, is absolutely anti-Islamic act. 0 Reply Eddy 27 Nov 2009, 5:09pm Neville, this could well be some pathetic little beardy sitting behind a terminal in some computer department of a school somewhere in the Middle East. Rahman, does your mother know what you are up to? 0 Reply Rahman 27 Nov 2009, 5:13pm The word “Kafir” is used in the Holy Koran. Nothing offensive in it. Just designation for unbelievers in Arabic. That’s all. 0 Reply JohnK 27 Nov 2009, 5:20pm Eddy you are right we do not know for certain that Rahman is based in the UK . . . I sort of made that assumption based on his inital comments on the theme of this thread. The fact that we are some what off on a tangent from “University cancels speech by homophobic Islamic cleric” . . . is testimony to how Rahman has hijacked this thread to promote Islam and make known by impact his discontents with the west. Or should I say . . . we have got the message now, tell us something we do not know. 0 Reply Eddy 27 Nov 2009, 5:39pm Rahman at #230 stated: “The word “Kafir” is used in the Holy Koran. Nothing offensive in it. Just designation for unbelievers in Arabic. That’s all.” Wrong, Rahman, wrong. Kafir is usually translated as “ingrate”, “ungrateful”, “unbeliever” or “obliterator.” In recent times, the word Kafir has come to be used and seen as derogatory and for this reason some (more “moderate”) Muslim scholars have discouraged its use and have suggested that Muslims should use the word “non-Muslim”. This explains why Rahman in #222 angrily dismissed Simon Murphy with “What a debased hypocrite, Kafir he is.” Rahman meant to insult and so he used the derogatory term “Kafir”. (But Rahman is made in the mould of Mohammed and thinks himself perfect and therefore has not admitted what he meant by using the term.) The Oxford English Dictionary gives the meaning of Kafir as “infidel”. An example of traditional usage is: 1814, Southey Roderick, v. 198: “A Moor came by, and seeing him [the Goth], exclaimed Ah, Kaffer! – worshipper of wood and stone.” 0 Reply Gerald 27 Nov 2009, 5:43pm Wow! Well can I say, one thing is certain after looking through this thread: you guys have sure taught this little Rahman that we Western gays ain’t stupid! 0 Reply Rahman 27 Nov 2009, 5:45pm I follow the facts of my observations in Western lands – hundreds thousands, no, millions of idols all over Western lands, in churches, in cemeteries, in cities, just everywhere. The fact that over 70% of Englishmen are Christians is the fact that those people are idol-worshippers. That’s not an impression, that’s the fact. They worshipping not in museums of fine art, they worshipping everywhere in Western lands. Muslims need educate such population about wrongfulness of worshipping any human being in any form. People of the Earth should have clean mind from all these idols and live with living GOD who are present in the world. Idea of God’s Love for His creation is something which most Westerners do not comprehend yet. This is the reason why they easily become acting as animals and misused language for insults and regeneration of hate and conflicts. That’s not what God wanted them to do, and therefore every Muslim should educate them about beauty and benevolence of Islam. I am seeing my presence in Western land as an educator. That’s the reason for my life here. I am not a selfish person who mostly cares about sexual enjoyments. No. I am an altruist who cares about poor and misguided human beings in the Western land, at least. 0 Reply Neville 27 Nov 2009, 5:59pm Poor Rahman has a very limited knowledge of English which is the most important language in the world, and of western culture which is the most important culture in the world. Modern Muslim culture is non-existent. It is merely a form of existence on a rudimentary level. I assume that Rahman does not have a passport, for it would have to contain a photograph which is a form of idolatry. He cannot watch television or read newspapers because both of these forms of the media contain representations of the human form which is idolatry. All these things are the product of western culture. What a miserable existence he must endure. Poor,primitive individual. Eddy is right the word ‘kafir’ is a word of abuse as is the word ‘wog’. 0 Reply Rahman 27 Nov 2009, 6:12pm Mr. Eddy is just a plain ignorant who talking about something he doesn’t understand. He need to study Holy Koran before he open his mouth about it. 0 Reply Neville 27 Nov 2009, 6:19pm Rahman, you are clearly seriously mentally ill. You are suffering from religious mania. 0 Reply Eddy 27 Nov 2009, 6:21pm Gerald, at #233: well, yes, I agree we OUGHT to have shown “little Rahman” (as you called him) that we queers are not stupid, but it seems that “little Rahman” is quite unable to comprehend this. This is probably because he has been so badly brainwashed by Islam since his little face popped out of his mama’s hole. Rahman at #234 wrote: “The fact that over 70% of Englishmen are Christians is the fact that those people are idol-worshippers.” Poor man! Forget the fact that English is not his first language, Rahman believes the above utterance is reasonable . . . but it simply doesn’t make sense. It’s nonsense. Gobbledegook. He no doubt talks the same nonsense in Arabic. However, within the gobbledegook is Rahman’s assertion that “over 70% of Englishmen are Christians”. By this statement he has revealed that he has no grasp of reality in England. He is completely unaware that even if a significant number of English men AND women write “Christian” on a census form it does not mean that they are believers. Rahman, many people write “Christian” on a census form because they do not wish to be considered as belonging to some other group, like Muslims, for example! Rahman, you still have a great many questions too methodically answer. You have still failed to answer them. I wonder why that is. And could you, please, directly answer the question as to which country you are presently located in. Don’t worry, we don’t want your address. We aren’t going to crash an airliner into your house. 0 Reply Eddy 27 Nov 2009, 6:44pm Rahman wrote at #236: “Mr. Eddy is just a plain ignorant who talking about something he doesn’t understand. He need to study Holy Koran before he open his mouth about it.” Rahman, you know well that I AM talking about something that I WELL understand, and which I have observed FIRST HAND while living and working in YOUR Muslim countries. And that really annoys you, doesn’t it – because normally you don’t meet people who know the REALITY of what goes on inside Muslim countries. And you also just cannot bring yourself to answer all the questions which people have put to you from the top of this thread downwards, can you? Why? The answer is: because you can’t do it, without facing the reality that your religion is deeply deeply flawed. All you can manage to throw at me is “He need to study Holy Koran before he open his mouth about it”. And the reason why this is the ONLY thing you can say to me is because your whole mind is completely dependent upon and completely brainwashed by THAT BOOK, isn’t it! You don’t know WHY you believe what you do. You don’t know WHY you say the things you do. All your beliefs have been drummed into your head since you were a baby. All you know is the contents of that book. You can repeat dozens of its verses and passages from memory, can’t you? But you cannot think independently. You cannot think critically. You can not be truly inventive or imaginative. All you can do is repeat all those old passages in that “Holy Koran”. This is why you have failed to answer all the questions that people here have put to you. Do you perhaps begin to see, Rahman? You are like a computer! You are like a hard-disc with a piece of software on it. No thinking. No questioning. Just following the program. The program is right and you follow the program. The program is The Holy Koran. Repeat, repeat, repeat. You can only repeat the words of that ancient old book. Don’t you feel rather inadequate? Wouldn’t you like to be a big exciting person? Something more than just a repeat-repeat-repeat of the words of a silly old book? 0 Reply Rahman 27 Nov 2009, 6:51pm I think I need get back to the word “Kafir” because here some individuals doesn’t understand it. In the Holy Koran we can read the following: “As to those who reject Faith, It is the same to them Whether thou warn them Or do not warn them; They will not believe.” The Holy Quran, 02:06 Al Baqarah. In one translation, made by Abdullah Yusuf Ali, he stated: : “Kufr, Kafara, Kafir, and derivative forms of the word, imply a deliberate rejection of Faith as opposed to a mistaken idea of God or faith, which is not inconsistent with an ernest desire to see the truth.” There another use of the word in the Sura II:88. Again, the translator made his commentary: ” The root kafara has many shades of meaning: (1) to deny God’s godness, to be ungreatful; (2) to reject Faith, deny His revelation; (3) to blaspheme, to ascribe some limitation or attribute to God which is derogatory to His nature.” I used the word in accordance with Holy Koran, in perfectly correct way. It is pity that some homosexuals, like that “Eddy”, trying to discredit a Muslim with false accusations. 0 Reply Eddy 27 Nov 2009, 7:05pm What a twisted little mind you have, Rahman. By your own admission “kafir” means “to deny God’s goodness, to be ungrateful; to reject Faith,… to blaspheme, to ascribe some limitation or attribute to God which is derogatory to His nature.” Now TRY TO BE HONEST WITH YOURSELF! How do you FEEL about a person like me - who denies there is any goodness in your god - who is ungrateful to your god - who rejects your god and your faith completely, - who “blasphemes” and says that your god does not exist - who says that your god is responsible for the slavery of 1.5 billion minds? How do you feel about me, Rahman? I will TELL you. You feel that I am nothing but a kafir! And that is why you spat that word at Simon Murphy. You called him a kafir. I call you a brainwashed unthinking automaton who can only recite according to The Koran. 0 Reply Neville 27 Nov 2009, 7:14pm As a follower of a primitive, inferior religion, Rahman, for Christians, is an infidel. As someone who is a believer in religious nonsense, he would be called a deluded fool by rational people. It is impossible to discredit a Muslim because it is not possible to get between a fool and his folly. All Muslims are already discredited because of their foolish beliefs. 0 Reply Rahman 27 Nov 2009, 7:32pm I am wonder what would some Muslims, after reading comments on this site, would do with such insulters as Neville or Simon Murphy are? Who would be the man who would asking Muslims to be merciful for such most outrageous insulters? I am sure I would be the only one Muslim who would asking my Brothers to forgive such individuals. 0 Reply Jean-Paul Bentham 27 Nov 2009, 7:42pm Rayman: If you think I insulted Narvey, who by the way is not who you think he is and we know him by many other names, one of which is “Monkeychops”, at least I never once said that you do not have the right to express your opinions on PinkNews. But here is what Narvey said about you when he first noticed your presence here: “This man has no business living here and spout this hatred for all it seems. If he feels this way why doesn’t he just move. He has no place in a British multi-cultural society and should be removed. Comment by Harvey — November 25, 2009 @ 10:50″ ________________________________________ Narvey betrays everyone including himself everytime he disrupts our discusions with his/her nasty rantings, and then he pretends to speak for the whole world by telling us we are ruining the reputation of the LGBT community simply because we know our democratic rights and we are not afraid to speak our minds. Speaking of speaking our minds, there are at least 8 of my questions that are still waiting for an answer from you. Oh, and by the way, I did begin to study the Koran once, but I gave up when I couldn’t find the geographical co-ordinates that would lead me to the lake of mud where god told muhammed the sun set in the evening. Do you agree that the koran, the word of god, says that the sun sets in a pool of mud in the evening? Have you ever seen this lake of mud? But it is written in the koran so it must be true, right. Now where did I park my super jet-liner? 0 Reply Eddy 27 Nov 2009, 7:44pm Oh, Rahman, how you make me laugh out loud. You play such a transparent little game whereby in two short sentences you spit implications of eviscerating we who think nothing of your religion, implications of releasing untold vengeance upon us, while at the same time professing that you are all merciful and only brimming with forgiveness. You are laughable. And I am laughing out loud. And YOU have STILL failed, TWO HUNDRED POSTS DOWN THE LINE, to answer the questions that have been put to you! You would appear to be little more than a cringing little coward hiding behind a rotten old book. I am tired of you. Get lost. 0 Reply Rahman 27 Nov 2009, 7:54pm What we have on this forum is impious irreverence of large number of homosexuals toward Noble Religion of Islam and toward Muslims, and me particularly. On all my efforts to address homosexuals on this site in Respectful way are failed because of their kafirousness… Logically, now I don’t need to use the word Respectful in relation to individuals who insulting me systematically and intentionally. Well, I just do not address them at all until they will realize their uncultured and immoral nature. Currently, I still possess my hope for their improvement in very basics of human existence – the RESPECT for the dignity of their OPPONENT. 0 Reply Jean-Paul Bentham 27 Nov 2009, 8:06pm Rayman: What did you expect to find on a gay website? Put your hope in democracy and the UN, not some book that says the sun sets in a lake of mud. You take care of yourself now, lad. 0 Reply Harvey 27 Nov 2009, 8:12pm It’s true, Rahman, I am a woman. 0 Reply Rahman 27 Nov 2009, 8:13pm To: Jean-Paul Bentham. Sir, thank you for some clarification regarding Harvey. Even, I cannot verify your observations, I trust you. As for your questions, I provided you some answers earlier, while holding down others. There are the reasons for it, but I cannot name it at the current time. Please, excuse me for that. I do highly respect your knowledge about homosexuality in the world, and do respect you as a person. Indeed, I am trying my best to comprehend as much about homosexuality as I can. However, this excludes any practice of it: I cannot violate my Religion. Thank you. 0 Reply Harkowz 27 Nov 2009, 8:13pm Rahman: * “In accordance to our religious philosophy we oppose any recognition of homosexual unions” * “We oppose any involvement of homosexuals in child care matters, private or public.” * “We certainly oppose acceptance of homosexuals in army and police forces, in any judicial establishments, and any position in power in any country of the world.” How will this be achieved? * “Our jurisprudence established on the Order of God for the past 14 century and it could not be subject of changes under man-made laws, conventions or declarations of so-called “human rights” * “Such declarations or conventions of “human rights” were created by monopolistic, oppressive and essentially anti-Islamic governments of the Untied States of America and United Kingdom.” * “How our Islamic Nations could follow ideas which violate principles and laws of our Religion of Islam? That’s not possible for over 1.5 billion of Muslim people of the world.” So no human rights for gays! Islamic Sharia Law says so. * “We cannot be monkey or parrots of American libertines. That’s absolutely impossible in our Islamic countries. So, please try to understand our philosophy which is based on God’s laws.” * “This is the reason why nations in all Islamic countries do not trust your Western governments on any issue whatsoever.” * “Do you think that Western world can conquer our Islamic world with your materialistic means? This never will be the case. The case in the history is failures of British government’s policies in Asia and Africa.” This is why we need the War On Terror. Every Islamic country should be toppled or forced to enter the 21st century. And you have dhimmis like Harvey wishing the Caliphate on Britain and smearing thse who oppose Islamic domination as BNP supporters! Finally Rahman: * “Many gays on this site use Internet for expression of their insults” * “In real life such insulters would be taken in the police station and prosecuted in the court of law.” No Rahman, insulting religion is a right enjoyed in all of Europe for over 300 years. You are so wrong saying “Idea of God’s Love for His creation is something which most Westerners do not comprehend yet.” You are 300 years out of date. We saw hundreds of years ago the lunacy of religion. Islamic countries have yet to do so. * “On this site many gays insulting my person and all Muslims like me just because of my Religion Islam. Who gave them permission to exploit the U.K.’ law on freedom of speech in order to insult me and my fellow Muslims? Nobody.” The law on insulting religion gives everyone the right to insult Islam. Blasphemy laws don’t exist here any more. Religion is wrong. 0 Reply Harkowz 27 Nov 2009, 8:31pm And don’t forget the poor innocent gays in these backward barbaric Islamic countries, subject to the medieval Islamic laws. They deserve human rights, even if Rahman thinks human rights for gays are a sinful anti-Islamic American and British invention designed to oppress Muslims. For gays, women and other minorities, it is morally right for anyone who cares about human dignity to support the destruction of Islamic Sharia states everywhere. 0 Reply Rahman 27 Nov 2009, 8:33pm To: Jean-Paul Bentham. Sir, did I ever let you down with something like “You take care of yourself now, lad.” ? I don’t, I think. You asking me the question: “What did you expect to find on a gay website?” Well, I expected to find on the English gay site cultured and polite gentlemen who happens to be homosexuals, who are respectful toward any opposing person, provided that such person respectful to them as well. I don’t think I was ever disrespectful to anyone here. Word kafir is not used by me in offensive way, neither the word hypocrite. As for the United Nations, governmental members of this organization systematically violate their own “Universal Declaration of Human Rights” in their own countries and collectively killing and injuring beyond recognition thousands innocent Muslims in Afghanistan for past several years. I observed in the recent past how United Nations forces mistreating and killing small black boys in Haiti, in Port au Prince. Now, tell me, how I can put my hope in the Untied Nations after I observed such horrendous actions? Thank you. 0 Reply Rahman 27 Nov 2009, 8:41pm To Harvey. Thank you for your statement about your gender. Personally, I very fond of woman’s kindness, ability to consider the feelings of other person and not be be rude, but to be gentle and nice person. Your responds on this site were proper in many ways. Thank you for being here and for your support for me as a human beings from other world! 0 Reply Isuzu 27 Nov 2009, 8:44pm I expected to find on the English gay site cultured and polite gentlemen who happens to be homosexuals, who are respectful toward any opposing person, provided that such person respectful to them as well. I don’t think I was ever disrespectful to anyone here. Because you cannot see that you have said so many things in this thread which are so hurtful and so insulting it is clear you are totally blind and a bigot! You’re really really dangerous. You’re the kind that would hang a dog by the neck and smile the whole time. 0 Reply Iris 27 Nov 2009, 8:54pm Rahman, you say that we don’t understand Islam. Can you link us to a site that explains it in a way that you feel accurately represents your beliefs? That why, if you truly want us to learn, then we can do so. What I find hard to accept is your comment above about gay people and women, saying that the poor way there treated is in the Koran and that’s just the way it is – nothing personal. But can you see why people DO take it as personal? I don’t consider myself ‘inferior’ in any way because of my gender or my sexuality. I’m an agnostic, but if there’s a God, he or she made me this way and I’m POSITIVE that God would not denigrate me or my love for my girlfriend. Yes, there are bad people in the world, but you can’t tell them by their gender, their sexuality or the colour of their skin. 0 Reply Iris 27 Nov 2009, 8:54pm * that way (sorry) 0 Reply Harkowz 27 Nov 2009, 9:04pm Iris, if you want to know Rahman’s beliefs, read his comments! I collated a few choice quotes by Rahman in comment 250. He basically thinks gays should be subordinate and denied human rights. There’s no point trying to ingratiate tourself to religious bigots like him. Just because his religion is exotic doesn’t mean you should swoon over him. He’s still a homophobic nutcase who wants you and your girlfriend to be “punished” for being gay and all your rights removed in accordance with the Quran. 0 Reply Rahman 27 Nov 2009, 9:10pm Mr. Harkowz, In Islamic countries all homosexual persons does possess their citizen’s rights under our Islamic laws. They are not without any rights. Moreover: we do excuse certain homosexual persons under certain conditions and under our laws. However, as I stated earlier, some homosexuals are not excused under different and grave circumstances and persecuted. Such curcumstances could be related to the criminal acts, such as rape of 13 years old boy by two 15-19 years youths. In such cases we apply severe measures. In some, very friendly to England, Western country, in the United States, your Western society applying also very severe measure – capital punishment. If so, why do you oppose our Islamic jurisprudence which do the same to criminal persons as your Western societies also do? Hour Sharia jurisprudence based on God’s law and for this reasons alone it is Just. 0 Reply Harkowz 27 Nov 2009, 9:18pm Rahman, “Sharia jurisprudence based on God’s law and for this reasons alone it is Just.” For that reason alone it is unjust. The Quran was written by man, a crazy desert dwelling lunatic called Mohammed. Until religious law is binned no Islamic country can ever be accepted as equal. You claim that gay people have rights in Islamic countries. You must be in a south east Asian country like Thailand or Malaysia, not Arabia where gays are put to death. You say repeatedly you want gays to have rights taken away – you say (see comment 250) “In accordance to our religious philosophy we oppose any recognition of homosexual unions.. We oppose any involvement of homosexuals in child care matters, private or public.. We certainly oppose acceptance of homosexuals in army and police forces, in any judicial establishments, and any position in power in any country of the world.” That’s got nothing to do with paedophilia. 0 Reply Rahman 27 Nov 2009, 9:34pm The facts of systematic homosexual abuses of male children in Chrisitan churches in Engliand and other European countries, in United States of America, in Canada, in Australia, in all Latin American countries by Chrisitan male homosexual priests indicates that homosexuals are prone to homosexual abuses of male children. As soon as homosexual women become Chistian priests, they will do the similar homosexual abuses of female children. That’s logical extention of Western homosexualites in libertarian Western civilization. Muslim people cannot permit this under any circumstances. Therefore, we will oppose all extentions homosexual politics in the world, in Islamic countries and non-Islamic countries. 0 Reply Harkowz 27 Nov 2009, 9:39pm There you have it ladies and gentleman, gays are paedos. And further Rahman and his kind want all gays in the world to be denied equality because they’re all paedos. That’s Islamic theory for you, no different to Christian theories on gays. 0 Reply JohnK 27 Nov 2009, 9:47pm Can we start to summarise Rahmans beliefs . . . now that we have had a few volumes . . . which all seem amount to, and converge around the same homophobic and heterosexist ideas as evangelical christians and other secular bigots. 0 Reply flapjack 27 Nov 2009, 9:55pm JohnK- Summarise Rahman’s beliefs… that’s simple… refer to all Hank’s previous posts and simply substitute the word “Bible” with the word “Koran”. 0 Reply Harkowz 27 Nov 2009, 9:56pm Rahman’s beliefs can be described as 1. Gays should not be given marriage or civil partnerships 2. Gays must not be left in care of children 3. Gays must be kept out of the army, police, judiciary, politics or any “position in power” (presumably that includes teachers, scientists, basically any job) 4. Quranic Law is supreme 5. Human rights do not apply to Islamic countries 6. Human rights are the tool of the imperialist West 7. All gays are paedos 8. Insulting religion is a crime 9. All gays must be punished for being gay 10. Everyone must become religious 0 Reply JohnK 27 Nov 2009, 9:57pm lol – thanks Flapjack – very astute 0 Reply JohnK 27 Nov 2009, 9:59pm The Book of Rahman Beliefs Chapter 1 – All gays are pedophiles. Bascially, Rahman cannot except, and is in denial about the pedadophila inherent in the Koran, so to reslove this dilemma he comes onto this site and trys to project it on to LGBT people. 0 Reply JohnK 27 Nov 2009, 10:00pm Harkowz . . . Bravo Bravo Bravo 0 Reply JohnK 27 Nov 2009, 10:06pm The book fo Rahman’s beliefs – (Work in progress) 1. Gays should not be given marriage or civil partnerships 2. Gays must not be left in care of children 3. Gays must be kept out of the army, police, judiciary, politics or any “position in power” (presumably that includes teachers, scientists, basically any job) 4. Quranic Law is supreme 5. Human rights do not apply to Islamic countries 6. Human rights are the tool of the imperialist West 7. All gays are paedos 8. Insulting religion is a crime 9. All gays must be punished for being gay 10. Everyone must become religious and 11. Be courteus of my views other wise I will not listen to you. 0 Reply Harkowz 27 Nov 2009, 10:10pm LOL ^^ Islamophobia will feature somewhere too 0 Reply JohnK 27 Nov 2009, 10:15pm The book of Rahman Beliefs 12. Women should be kind not rude and considerate of male feelings before their own 13. The west is inherently ant-Isalm and islamaphobic 0 Reply JohnK 27 Nov 2009, 10:17pm The book fo Rahman’s beliefs – (Work in progress – A recap) 1. Gays should not be given marriage or civil partnerships 2. Gays must not be left in care of children 3. Gays must be kept out of the army, police, judiciary, politics or any “position in power” (presumably that includes teachers, scientists, basically any job) 4. Quranic Law is supreme 5. Human rights do not apply to Islamic countries 6. Human rights are the tool of the imperialist West 7. All gays are paedos 8. Insulting religion is a crime 9. All gays must be punished for being gay 10. Everyone must become religious 11. Be courteus of my views other wise I will not listen to you. 12. Women should be kind not rude and considerate of male feelings before their own 13. The west is inherently ant-Isalm and islamaphobic 0 Reply Rahman 27 Nov 2009, 10:32pm JohnK wrote: “Bascially, Rahman cannot except, and is in denial about the pedophila inherent in the Koran, so to reslove this dilemma he comes onto this site and trys to project it on to LGBT people.” Give me the prove that “the pedophila inherent in the Koran”. I am declare here that you, JohnK, are a LIAR and SLANDERER because Holy Koran does not have any reference to the pedophilia in any instance, and I do not projecting anything fo that kind thing on anyone, and I do base my opinion on homosexual abuse of male children by homosexuals who are employed priests in Christian churches, schools and summer camps on the large factual data in law enforcements departments of Western countries. There much more data on homosexual abuse of male children which is related to Boy Scouts in various Western countries. That’s all facts and not the hypothetic assumptions. Islam stongly prohibit any sexual abuse of children. In fact any sexual act, even perfectly consentual, beyond the marriage or before the marriage is absolutely prohibited in Holy Koran. That’s very clear basis of Islam on any sort of homosexual child abuse anywhere in the world. 0 Reply JohnK 27 Nov 2009, 10:38pm The book of Rahman’s beliefs – (Work in progress – A recap) Courtesy of Harkowz 1. Gays should not be given marriage or civil partnerships 2. Gays must not be left in care of children 3. Gays must be kept out of the army, police, judiciary, politics or any “position in power” (presumably that includes teachers, scientists, basically any job) 4. Quranic Law is supreme 5. Human rights do not apply to Islamic countries 6. Human rights are the tool of the imperialist West 7. All gays are paedos 8. Insulting religion is a crime 9. All gays must be punished for being gay 10. Everyone must become religious 11. Be courteus of my views other wise I will not listen to you. 12. Women should be kind not rude and considerate of male feelings before their own 13. The west is inherently ant-Isalm and islamaphobic. and 14. Any one who disagrees with the Koran is a liar and slanderer 15. Homosexual abuse of children is higher than heterosexual abuse of children 0 Reply Harkowz 27 Nov 2009, 11:03pm Forgive my pedantic update of the list :D 1. Gays should not be given marriage or civil partnerships 2. Gays must not be left in care of children 3. Gays must be kept out of the army, police, judiciary, politics or any “position in power” (presumably that includes teachers, scientists, basically any job) 4. Quranic Law is supreme 5. Human rights do not apply to Islamic countries 6. Human rights are the tool of the imperialist West 7. All gays are paedos 8. Insulting religion is a crime 9. All gays must be punished for being gay 10. Everyone must become religious 11. Be courteous of my views otherwise I will not listen to you. 12. Women should be kind, not rude, and considerate of male feelings before their own 13. The west is inherently anti-Islam and islamaphobic. 14. Anyone who questions or disagrees with the Koran is a liar and slanderer 15. Homosexual abuse of children occurs more than heterosexual abuse of children (IE all gays are paedos) 16. No sex outside of marriage 0 Reply JohnK 27 Nov 2009, 11:06pm Harkowz . . . Lets keep the update going based on your brillant!!! intial list JK 0 Reply Rahman 27 Nov 2009, 11:06pm Harkowiz and JohnK are both LAIRS: I never stated that “All gays are paedos” or “All gays must be punished for being gay”. I systematically stated that male homosexuals are prone to commit sexual abuse of male children, as history of their behavior in Western countries indicated to any researcher. That’s does not means that AL male homosexuals are “paedo”. I never stated all male homosexuals must be punished for being as such. Certain male homosexuals are not subject to any punishable and immune to any punishment under certain conditions, while other male homosexuals are subject to punishment in the court of Islamic law – only. There also a class of homosexual individuals who are mentally ill and made wrongful conduct without legal state of mind. They also excluded from any punishment by the Islamic courts. 0 Reply JohnK 27 Nov 2009, 11:11pm The book of Rahman beliefs – continued 1. Gays should not be given marriage or civil partnerships 2. Gays must not be left in care of children 3. Gays must be kept out of the army, police, judiciary, politics or any “position in power” (presumably that includes teachers, scientists, basically any job) 4. Quranic Law is supreme 5. Human rights do not apply to Islamic countries 6. Human rights are the tool of the imperialist West 7. All gays are paedos 8. Insulting religion is a crime 9. All gays must be punished for being gay 10. Everyone must become religious 11. Be courteous of my views otherwise I will not listen to you. 12. Women should be kind, not rude, and considerate of male feelings before their own 13. The west is inherently anti-Islam and islamaphobic. 14. Anyone who questions or disagrees with the Koran is a liar and slanderer 15. Homosexual abuse of children occurs more than heterosexual abuse of children (IE all gays are paedos) 16. No sex outside of marriage and 17. There are three types of homosexuals 0 Reply JohnK 27 Nov 2009, 11:17pm The book of Rahman beliefs – continued 1. Gays should not be given marriage or civil partnerships 2. Gays must not be left in care of children 3. Gays must be kept out of the army, police, judiciary, politics or any “position in power” (presumably that includes teachers, scientists, basically any job) 4. Quranic Law is supreme 5. Human rights do not apply to Islamic countries 6. Human rights are the tool of the imperialist West 7. All gays are paedos 8. Insulting religion is a crime 9. All gays must be punished for being gay 10. Everyone must become religious 11. Be courteous of my views otherwise I will not listen to you. 12. Women should be kind, not rude, and considerate of male feelings before their own 13. The west is inherently anti-Islam and islamaphobic. 14. Anyone who questions or disagrees with the Koran is a liar and slanderer 15. Homosexual abuse of children occurs more than heterosexual abuse of children (IE all gays are paedos) 16. No sex outside of marriage 17. There are three types of homosexuals and 18. State an extreme position then deny it vehermently when confronted with it. 0 Reply Harkowz 27 Nov 2009, 11:23pm Rahman, comment 174: “But some homosexuals, who are persistent in their misdeeds and who are nasty, who systematically disrespect all Muslims and all God’s laws, shall be subject of punishment. God did not said they should be killed. I am sure a reasonable fine would be sufficient punishment” Which homosexuals would be punished in your eyes? You say: “male homosexuals are prone to commit sexual abuse of male children, as history of their behavior in Western countries indicated to any researcher.” No more than any paedophile. You assert that homosexuals are by definition at predisposed to commit child rape: comment 25: “Many homosexual men became priests and monks in Roman Catholic Church and they systematically committed male child sex-abuse all over the Western world (at least). That’s indicates something very obvious about homosexuality per se.” I question your humanity. 0 Reply Iris 27 Nov 2009, 11:27pm Rahman, most sexual abuse of children is done by HETEROSEXUAL males. I’m guessing you’re a man? So were the writers of the texts of all the major religions. I’d guess they were all straight too. Hence: i) their hatred and misunderstanding of gay people (they don’t get it so it must be wrong) ii) their desire to portray women as incompetent/inferior/unworthy That’s a HUMAN failing and nothing whatsover to do with God. Human beings can’t help but pick on minorities or fear people who are different. It’s also a power thing. Religion (and I DON’T specifically mean Islam) can be used to justify any persecution and rule. Gay people are born gay. They are no better and no worse than anyone else. 0 Reply JohnK 27 Nov 2009, 11:27pm The book of Rahman beliefs – continued 1. Gays should not be given marriage or civil partnerships 2. Gays must not be left in care of children 3. Gays must be kept out of the army, police, judiciary, politics or any “position in power” (presumably that includes teachers, scientists, basically any job) 4. Quranic Law is supreme 5. Human rights do not apply to Islamic countries 6. Human rights are the tool of the imperialist West 7. All gays are paedos 8. Insulting religion is a crime 9. All gays must be punished for being gay 10. Everyone must become religious 11. Be courteous of my views otherwise I will not listen to you. 12. Women should be kind, not rude, and considerate of male feelings before their own 13. The west is inherently anti-Islam and islamaphobic. 14. Anyone who questions or disagrees with the Koran is a liar and slanderer 15. Homosexual abuse of children occurs more than heterosexual abuse of children (IE all gays are paedos) 16. No sex outside of marriage 17. There are three types of homosexuals 18. State an extreme position then deny it vehermently when confronted with it. and 19. Homosexuals who are nasty and disrespect all muslims and gods law will be punished 0 Reply Harvey 28 Nov 2009, 1:43am Rayman: I will do more than support you. I have a new golden veil and I will put cool grapes in your warm mouth while I dance naked in front of you. These fools will never understand us. 0 Reply Rahman 28 Nov 2009, 3:06am Ms. Iris, Thanks for your comment. Perhaps you have better information then I do about child sex abuse. As for your question on my gender, I am a man from my birth to the present. I hope I never become a Trans. That’s would be disaster for all my family. I am not a homosexual, and I am sure I never make any step in such direction. I pray to God not to stair on any male, and I avoid any sex-related sites and images in order to keep my mind free from ungenerative sexuality. Founders of all world religions were certainly normal straight men and they obey God’s Will to cause birth of children. That’s the obligation of every normal man to create strong family and to cause birth of children, and take the care for future of Mankind. Certainly. I don’t hate gays. I am not completely understand them, but I do feel great sorry, compassion, kindness and mercy for them in general. I don’t think that women are incompetent, or inferior or unworthy. I think women are very nice, gentle, pleasant, lovely, and sweet, worthy of adoration and great care from men. I also think that many conflicts which occur in family life caused by misunderstanding, by the lack of sensitivity from both parties in family life. Imams should teach Muslims, especially the young Muslims to be as much attentive to each other needs and attitudes then in the past time of Islamic history. I think Religion should never be used for anything because Religion is the most sincere expression of human soul, because Religion based on the inner attraction of soul to unite with God, with his Will for the happiness of all Humanity. Religious man prays daily to God for His Bliss, His Glory, and His Love for all creatures whom He created. That’s my understanding. For this reason I pray God to have His Mercy, His Kindness, His Tolerance, and His Compassion toward all homosexuals, and His Help to return them on the Path of Islam. I don’t think that gay people are born gay, I think they become as such under wrong complex physical and socializing conditionings. The same occurred among animals when they do not have normal conditioning for mating. I think that glorification and thoughtless liberalization of homosexuality in Western land are wrong political tendency which disintegrate society, and can cause massive social conflicts in Humanity on Global scale. Most possible, this will occurred not in this 21-st century, but in next 22-nd century by the Western stile of time-recording. Such catastrophe should be prevented by all humanistic means. I think that many gays in various countries does not comprehend the extensions of world’s problems which they now causing to all Humanity, and that the setback could be really severe and very terrifying for them especially. There shall be gradual progress for tolerance and not enforced by governmental activities on massive majority of non-gay population of Earth. Gay politicians, in my view, are unwise individuals and they are mostly ungodly people. That’s creates more problems in the world 0 Reply Rahman 28 Nov 2009, 3:08am Thanks, Harvey, for your support! 0 Reply Jean-Paul Bentham 28 Nov 2009, 6:53am Thanks for your support, Rahman, but I’m not sure I could trust you after reading what you’ve said about homosexuals. Also, look at the way you bulldozed your way in here and have completely disrupted us from the topic of this article. We are disrespecful??? And what’s the matter with my saying “Take care of yourself, lad”. It’s a perfectly normal thing to say where I grew up. It’s the way we say “Salem”. It was not meant to offend anyone. Cheez. 0 Reply Harvey 28 Nov 2009, 8:33am Rahman & all else:- What speaks out loud about all intolerant people YOU AND THESE PEOPLE is when they STEAL youR identity and start speaking for you. Thank you for you horrible insults against me when it seems somebody has been speaking for me. I believe Eddy can back me up as proof although sorry I don’t know who you are. I have not written several comments on here but my name has been used. I am indeed not a woman as stated in thread (248) and what amazes me is that I haven’t even been on line to be able to write some of these comments. I was out most of yesterday so I THANK the person who has been tainting me and even more I’d like to thank the people, WIll, JEAN-PAUL, TERRY & HARKOWZ for you insults towards me for things I haven’t written. I HAVE REPORTED THIS TO PINKNEWS. Thank you for your total abuse towards me AND TO THE PERSON WHO WROTE THESE COMMENTS FOR ME, I HOPE YOUR HAPPY WITH YOURSELF. YOU MUST BE VERY PROUD TO STEAL SOMEONES IDENTITY AND USE YOUR OWN AGENDA TO DISCREDIT ME. I HOPE YOUR ALL PROUD OF YOURSELVES. I WASN’T ON YESTERDAY AND GOT ONLINE THIS MORNING AT ABOUT 7AM. AGAIN THANK YOU TO ALL WHO HAVE INSULTED ME FOR SOMEONE WHO HAS STOLEN MY IDENTITY ON HERE. THANK YOU VERY MUCH. I HAVE DEMANDED A FULL APOLOGY FROM PINK IF YOU LOT HAD ANY MANNERS YOU’D DO THE SAME! 0 Reply AdrianT 28 Nov 2009, 8:48am You can dismiss everything said by Rahman above by asking: ‘quo warranto?’ – ‘on whose authority?’ On whose authority are you making all those claims? I don’t recognise it, and I didn’t ask for your mercy, thanks. You make incredible claims, to know not only that there is a mind at work in the universe, but you know who that mind is (out of all the gods that have existed). You are on such intimate terms with that mind: you know what god wants me to wear, when he wants me to pray, with whom I should sleep, what I should or should not eat. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, Rahman. How do you know this information? You cannot know this. Religion was the first attempt at understanding the world around us. First attempt at science, at medicine, at meteorology, at morality, at philosophy. And because it was our first attempt, it was our worst attempt in all these areas. We have now, better science. We know we evolved, rather than emerging from the dust in some mythical garden in the middle east. We have far better morality from the likes of John Stuart Mill, Thomas Paine and others. We are just beginning to understand human psychology and have discovered that sexual orientation is perfectly natural. That is why, people who say homosexuality is a sin, or some such nonsense, are welcome to their opinions. But they do not count, because they are based on superstition and nonsense, rather than evidence. And the same laws of science and human nature are universal, whether in Mecca or in St Peters Square or in Soho. Progress has been achieved by walking away from religion, not embracing it. We in Europe have reached that greatness – the pinnacle being the 1948 declaration of human rights – by removing the power of the clerics. Rahman wrongly assumes human rights are western values. They are not. They are universal. There are women’s rights organizations in Pakistan, Bangladesh and Iran and all across the middle east who desperately need our support (Shirin Ebadi for instance). In this country, women are under threat of honour killings, taking refuge and needing police protection, trying to divorce violent husbands. I had the great pleasure of taking part in the anti Sharia Demonstration last Saturday in Hyde Park, organised by a consortium of humanists, secular muslims and ex-muslims. We gay people should be standing in solidarity with these freedom fighters. Right now, the labour government allows Sharia tribunals to operate across the country. I’m standing for freedom of self determination, freedom of expression, freedom to doubt, art, freedom to discover, right of fair representation, the right of women to go to school unveiled in Karachi and Kabul, for gay people in Shoreditch to live without fear, for the freedom fighters in Tehran, for people in Turkey to read the God Delusion in their own language. And everyone in this country should send a clear message, that there is one law for everyone and that is all there is to be said. There is no place in this country for Sharia fascism. We have man’s laws, not ‘God’s’. Thankfully. Freedom always wins in the end. For more information about how you can help, visit http://www.onelawforall.org. Other excellent resources include Ed Hussein ‘The Islamist’ – how a foremer member of an extremist organisation walked away from fundamentalism, and Ibn Warraq ‘why I am not a muslim’. 0 Reply Harvey 28 Nov 2009, 8:51am JEAN-PAUL MY COMMENT (244) YOU QUOTED ABOUT ME WAS NOT ABOUT RAYHAM IT WAS ABOUT ABU USAMAH. IT SEEMS NOT ONLY DO PEOPLE STEAL MY IDENTITY AND SPEAK FOR ME YOU SEEM TO HAVE USED MY QUOTE INCORRECTLY. A NUMBER OF YOU ARE CLEARLY BULLIES AGAINST ANYTHING INCLUDING GAY PEOPLE! 0 Reply AdrianT 28 Nov 2009, 8:52am Another great video worth watching – ‘what is the penalty for apostasy?’ it took 7 minutes for richard dawkins to get an answer…. 0 Reply Jean-Paul Bentham 28 Nov 2009, 9:27am Rahman: “What did you expect to find on a gay website?” Judging by the way you reacted to post 282 on your post 284, I’m beginning to wonder if you were expecting to find pornography. There is no pornography of any kind on the PinkNews site. When I welcomed you here, I thought you were going to stick to the subject, but you failed to show any respect at all for the subject which I tried several times to bring to your attention, sir. 0 Reply Harvey 28 Nov 2009, 9:44am I know when I began commenting on here a short while ago I was getting comments like trying to be ‘domineering’ when some had been on here ‘for a long time’ but I didn’t realise my clearly strong presence would be so threatening that some of you would result in Bullying even to the point of using intimidation by falsely using my name to discredit me. Is that how you work on here? One point I have observed on here in the short time I have been on is, that when it comes to religion, the people who believe tend to be more respectful and put their arguments across in a calm and proper way fitting of debate. People who don’t believe in religion seem to get Very angry and threatening. Think that in inself speaks columns. Warning all comments not made by me but done in my name have been reported and all in the future will too. I will not be bullied or intimidated by any of you. 0 Reply Jean-Paul Bentham 28 Nov 2009, 10:04am Did I misinterpret someone’s comment and disrupt this thread? PING ! There goes another marble! Sorry. 0 Reply Harvey 28 Nov 2009, 10:13am Jean-Paul being that the comment was made Long before Rayman even came on here says alot about your false claim and intimidating bullying tactics! The fact you insulted me for comments I HAD NOT made but some coward made for me says everything about you and how you act! The fact you still show such low regard for another gay human being makes you stand out for what you really are! Maybe it was you using my name? 0 Reply Jean-Paul Bentham 28 Nov 2009, 10:22am The comment about you being domineering was made to Monkeychops not to you, Narvey. Now everybody knows for sure how often you change identities to counfound us and discredit us. But in the end there’s no real harm done, is there? You were just having fun with us. No harm done at all. No sooner said than forgotten. You certainly don’t sound like someone who’s been discredited to me. In fact, you sound exactly like Monkeychops. Is that how this place works? Posting under all kinds of ID’s to screw up the minds of ordinary, peaceful persons? Why do you do that? Why? 0 Reply Harvey 28 Nov 2009, 10:22am For Everyone to see:- My comment (26) that has been twisted to suit Jean-Pauls need was make at 10.50 25th November. Rayham’s 1st comment was made at 23.54 25th November. Thats over 12 hours later. Thank you 0 Reply Harvey 28 Nov 2009, 10:28am Actually it was made to me in another thread by Brian Burton. Being that I wasn’t around to make the comments made in my name, yet you saw fit to insult, intimidate and bully, yes harm was done. What a nasty, twisted little mind person you are. I fully expect PinkNews to investigate and find the person. Or at least change things so people cannot steal an identity. You are a disgrace. 0 Reply Harvey 28 Nov 2009, 10:30am Jean-Paul- (294) YOU ARE CLEARLY STILL TRYING TO BULLY AND INTIMIDATE, IT WILL NOT WORK! 0 Reply Jean-Paul Bentham 28 Nov 2009, 10:30am Intimidating and bullying tactics like at posts 286 and 288? 0 Reply Jean-Paul Bentham 28 Nov 2009, 10:32am Oh my. time for my green tea. 0 Reply Harvey 28 Nov 2009, 10:39am At least all can see who you really are! 0 Reply flapjack 28 Nov 2009, 10:43am What it all boils down to is that the respect we give is equal to the respect we get. I make no grand claims about divine authority in that regard, that’s just human nature. As far as I’m concerned I may not agree with religious people’s beliefs but I can usually be civil to them in a debate. However, if they spend the entire debate telling me that I’m a second class citizen and sinner who shouldn’t be permitted equal human rights (but who can be pitied at a stretch), or that I’m a libertine and that their unproven god will pass judgement and roast me in a fiery pit for eternity when I die, the whole ‘polite’ thing tends to go out the window. I’m not accountable to someone else’s unproven god any more than you’re accountable to Zeus, Osiris, Thor, Zenu or the Flying Spaghetti monster. I used to get more involved in these debates, but the likes of Hank and Reality Check have taught me it’s like talking to a brick wall. They fall at the first hurdle of evidence (can you demonstrate how you can claim to know the mind of your deity of choice when said deity hasn’t even been empirically proven yet) and then proceed to plough on regardless. It’s as if proof of God’s existance is some sort of irrelevance to the topic in question rather than the shaky foundations of every assertion they subsequently come up with. 0 Reply AdrianT 28 Nov 2009, 11:02am Absoltely, flapjack. These people are crackpots but I think those debates were useful, because they sharpen the mind. Remember, you aren’t arguing with the opponent, but giving ideas and arguments and doubts to all those who read them. Maybe someone out there, even in the Middle East, is reading this and thinking, well, religion is a load of rubbish! Though there is only so many times you can repeat them, without going insane. 0 Reply 21stCenturySpirituality 28 Nov 2009, 11:17am Namaste and Salaam Rahman Rahman, I am not trying to insult you. I have not used inflammatory or abusive language toward you. You will find that there is a degree of difference between my posts and others where offensive and inflammatory remarks have most certainly been made toward you, perhaps with the intention of causing offence. I have my own rule not to engage in name calling or swearing in my responses. I seek to engage in frank and honest debate and to stimulate thought and dialogue. I do not feel that I can be credibly accused of seeking to insult you. Yes, I have presented challenging argument, that I will concede. But I have not done so with the intention to offend or insult you Rahman, and I will never do so. What I will do, however, is respond with reasoned analysis and constructive criticism of the constructions and statements that you present me with. I do not reject Islam, per se, and I certainly don’t reject you as a human being. What I do understand, however, is that all religions are human constructions and being human constructions they are not infallible nor are they necessarily accurate or complete representations of actual truth or ultimate reality. I know that there are teachings in Islam which DO work to create positive circumstances and conditions in the world. This can also be said for the religion into which I was born and socialised – Christianity, as well as other religious belief systems. But it is also observable that there are concepts and ideas put forward by religion which DO NOT work to create positive circumstances and conditions in the world and actually only work to push people away from God and each other and to cause and create immeasurable suffering, disharmony & division. Surely, Rahman, you must concede that what your religion teaches you about gay men and women (and I say this fully aware that Islam is not the only religion that does so) creates suffering for such people. My question to you, then, is why would a loving, benevolent God seek to make anyone suffer, or seek to exclude people or deny them happiness and fulfilment? 0 Reply Eddy 28 Nov 2009, 11:26am The backward faith of Islam must be halted. “The Koran” is largely a book of hatred. Open it on virtually any page and you will find direct instructions to convert, kill or ostracise unbelievers. Allah comes across (like Yahweh in “The Bible”) as a jealous, malevolent bully. Islam as found in “The Koran” is certainly not moderate. However, there are today some Muslims who are moderate. But these are the ones who pick and choose what they follow of “God’s word”. One cannot regard them, with their half-way house, as loyal to either Islam or reason. In Holland another book of hatred, “Mein Kampf”, is banned. For consistency, “The Koran” should also be banned, not just in Holland, obviously, but in every country where “Mein Kampf” and such hateful writings are held in contempt. At the very least we must discourage the reading of either “The Koran” or “The Bible” in schools. Violent works of fiction, full of threats of hellfire, unfounded metaphysical claims and questionable morals are not helpful for turning children into healthy adults. Finally, Islam is not a race. It’s more of a mind-controlling cult. The penalty for leaving this particular cult being, as we all know, is death. Islam is foul and repugnant. It’s followers, as has been well demonstrated on this thread by this person calling himself “Rahman”, are brainwashed automatons. 0 Reply JohnK 28 Nov 2009, 11:34am Rahman – in a nutshell 1. Gays should not be given marriage or civil partnerships 2. Gays must not be left in care of children 3. Gays must be kept out of the army, police, judiciary, politics or any “position in power” (presumably that includes teachers, scientists, basically any job) 4. Quranic Law is supreme 5. Human rights do not apply to Islamic countries 6. Human rights are the tool of the imperialist West 7. All gays are paedos 8. Insulting religion is a crime 9. All gays must be punished for being gay 10. Everyone must become religious 11. Be courteous of my views otherwise I will not listen to you. 12. Women should be kind, not rude, and considerate of male feelings before their own 13. The west is inherently anti-Islam and islamaphobic. 14. Anyone who questions or disagrees with the Koran is a liar and slanderer 15. Homosexual abuse of children occurs more than heterosexual abuse of children (IE all gays are paedos) 16. No sex outside of marriage 17. There are three types of homosexuals 18. State an extreme position then deny it vehermently when confronted with it. 19. Homosexuals who are nasty and disrespect all muslims and gods law will be punished and 20. Gays in various countries does not comprehend the extensions of world’s problems which they now causing to all Humanity. 21.Gay politicians are ungodly and create more problems in the world 22.Western glorification & liberalization of homosexuality will disintegrate society, and cause massive social conflicts on a Global scale. 0 Reply JohnK 28 Nov 2009, 11:38am As we can now see so vividly and clearly . . . Rahman is a disturbed dangerous and deranged . . . Fundamentalist Extremist Crackpot. 0 Reply Eddy 28 Nov 2009, 11:45am Rahman in #276 wrote: ‘I never stated that “All gays are paedos” or “All gays must be punished for being gay”.’ The above statement shows that Rahman cannot see the consequences of what he says. He cannot see the implications of what he says. He cannot see the associations, links, or contradictions, between the different statements he makes. These are the reasons why: The Muslim mind, from infancy, is not taught to be deductive, to make deductions, to think, to imagine, to be creative. The Muslim mind is trained only to memorise and repeat and be subservient to the words of The Koran. Muslim children are taught to memorise The Koran. There are many Muslims who can recite the entire Koran from memory! Children who can recite whole chapters of The Koran from memory are rewarded and held high over their peers. Anyone who has lived and worked amongst Muslims in Muslim countries for many years, as I have, knows that it is very difficult to teach the Muslim Mind. Since birth it has not been encouraged to think for itself, to be imaginative, to be creative. The Muslim child is trained simply to memorise, and to repeat. Understanding of implications does not come into the process. The Muslim is taught that he or she must simply understand and ACCEPT the words. Critical analysis simply does not exist. Education in Islamic countries is based upon memorisation. This is the reason why science and technology is stagnant in Islamic countries. Anything imaginative which they approve of and use has had to be imported. A small number of schools and colleges in Islamic countries are seeking to break away from this tradition but they have a tough time. Very often they are forced to conform. The Muslim Mind is the mind of an unthinking repeating automaton. 0 Reply JohnK 28 Nov 2009, 11:51am Eddy . . . I would like to add to your obervations and say. . . and this is why we should fight to prevent more religous schools being set up in this country. Sending a child to a religous school is child abuse if it destroys the minds capcity to think, argue reason and imagine. 0 Reply Iris 28 Nov 2009, 11:55am Rahman: “I don’t think that gay people are born gay, I think they become as such under wrong complex physical and socializing conditionings. The same occurred among animals when they do not have normal conditioning for mating.” That’s not true. People ARE born gay. They don’t start out heterosexual then change. People are born with their sexuality. Homosexuality is a normal variation of nature. What you say about animals is incorrect. Some animals CHOOSE same sex partners even when partners of the opposite sex are available. I’m glad you say how much you personally value women. But would you not agree that in some countries women are ill-treated under the pretence of religion, including Islam? Have you seen the religious police in operation in Saudi? Did you read about the woman sentenced for wearing ‘indecent clothing’ – a pair of trousers!! Do you know that women are prevented from receiving an education in some countries? I hope, if you feel as you say, you would speak out about these injustices. Religion – and I mean ALL religions – does itself no favours by constantly picking on groups of people. That is not the message of God. It is a vicious, spiteful human emotion. Gay people do you know harm. They are a natural variation of humanity. Why the obsession with them amongst so many religious leaders? 0 Reply Iris 28 Nov 2009, 11:56am *no harm 0 Reply Eddy 28 Nov 2009, 11:58am There are pockets of Muslims here in the UK who are seeking to spread their religion by taking advantage of fear. We know this because Non-Muslims in such areas constantly get flyers for the introduction of Sharia law through their doors. (Yes, you would think that Muslim delivery-boys would differentiate between Muslim households and non-Muslim households, but they don’t. They just stick their flyers through every door in the area.) Here is a report of the tactics which Muslims are using. An Islamic ‘gift shop’ opened a few years ago in Waltham Forest. The owners covered the door and windows with police tape and two people in a van were on guard all night long outside while people took things in and out of the shop. It was obvious to local non-Muslims that real police hadn’t put the tape up as people are used to police raiding properties in Waltham Forest – as just 3 doors down from this shop was one of the houses raided in the terror raids in 2006. One non-Muslim resident thus called the police about this deliberate display of police tape. The police were at first very animated that someone was using police tape. But the moment the police heard that the shop in question was an Islamic shop, they said that no officers were available at that time to investigate. They stated that no crime had been committed and the matter should be dropped. By the Muslims’ use of violence and threats against anyone who criticises them or their religion, they spread their religion by FEAR. Islam is a religion of FEAR and HATRED. 0 Reply Eddy 28 Nov 2009, 12:11pm Everyone who has been battling with this Muslim automaton since I was last here, particularly JohnK and Harkowz, WELL DONE! The systematic listing of Rahman’s statements (or their implications) is a brilliant idea. The list forces this poor little Muslim to see who he REALLY is. Human but a MONSTER. 0 Reply JohnK 28 Nov 2009, 12:15pm Iris . . . have you read what Rahman believes? He is obssessed with “Homosexuals” . . . becasuse he is in disturbed, deranged and dangerous projection of all that is bad in the world onto homosexuals. He is another incarnation of Hank, Monekychops etc etc etc Bascially . . . An extremist Fundamentalist Crackpot 0 Reply Rahman 28 Nov 2009, 12:20pm To: Jean-Paul Bentham. You stated in post 290: “Judging by the way you reacted to post 282 on your post 284, I’m beginning to wonder if you were expecting to find pornography.” I never interested in dirt of any kind. Your judgment is wrong. What’s make you think that my post 284 related to pornography (which I greatly oppose in any way, and this was stated in my earlier posts)? If I said “thank you” for someone’s support, such “thank” is not for the offer to show naked body and all that prostitute-like nonsense, but for positive attitude only. (By the way, I don’t know who is Rayman are. I thought earlier that my name was just simply misspelled because of someone’s wrong punch on the board.) Currently, I suspect that you are the one who steal Harvey’s identity, being an imposter, in order to discrediting him. There are the time sequences in your presences on the web, and this is the basis to suspicion about your dishonest conduct here. As for the subject of this forum, it is related to Islam, Muslim and homosexuality in general. That’s exactly what I am writing about it from the point of view of Islam, being a Muslim. At the present time Islam, Muslims and homosexuals became highly political issues. I do defending Islam against all offending individuals, including homosexuals. And just because I am a Muslim and politely defending my Religion, I became target of all sorts of INSULTS and SLANDERS from certain number of homosexuals who appeared on this forum. Is it fair? No. It is absolutely UNFAIR. 0 Reply Eddy 28 Nov 2009, 12:30pm Rahman the Muslim wrote: “I think that many gays in various countries does not comprehend the extensions of world’s problems which they now causing to all Humanity, and that the setback could be really severe and very terrifying for them especially” Well, done, JohnK, for adding this accusation to the list of The Rahman Monster’s list of statements! He is indeed a religious crackpot! Remember, everybody, AND HARVEY, AND 21ST, how Rahman wandered in here bowing his head to everyone and greeting those whom he deigned to speak to with “Respectful X” or “Respectful Y”? Ha! Well, we have succeeded in opening up his festering little brain of Islamic fundamentalism and we find that in fact he believes, as he states above, 1. that WE western gays and lesbians are causing problems to “all humanity” and 2. that for doing this we are to receive or come to some consequence or punishment that is “severe and terrifying”. (Wouldn’t you love to have Rahman write out in a couple of paragraphs just what that “severe and terrifying” setback is that all we homos and lesbians are gonna receive! I quite enjoy a bit of horror fiction!) 0 Reply Harvey 28 Nov 2009, 12:31pm I have the feeling its Jean-Paul too, mainly because of 2 miss quotes. I Have called on Pink News to make it more difficult for an individual to change their name so that people don’t become victim to slanderous comments they have not made. Pink News should have a responsibility to its readers to protect them from the bullying and intimidation that clearly goes on here when the person hasn’t written the remarks someone has stolen the identity in the sole purpose of discrediting them. A further complaint made be made depending on actions taken AND YES Jean-Paul It does harm! 0 Reply JohnK 28 Nov 2009, 12:31pm Rahman On this thread, you pretend to write english as one might expect from some one for whom it is thier second language. On other threads you write English with the fluency, lucidity and freshness of some one who has English as their first language. I see through your little game Oh and I forgot to say . . . P**s off 0 Reply Harvey 28 Nov 2009, 12:32pm Eddy – Remember, everybody, AND HARVEY,…. er what the hell does that mean? 0 Reply JohnK 28 Nov 2009, 12:34pm Harvey . . . have you read what Rahman beleives ??? Why are you supporting a “Fundamentalist Extremist Crackpot”??? . . . Unless you are also a “Fundamentalist Extremist Crackpot” 0 Reply Harvey 28 Nov 2009, 12:39pm Yes, I have but I have NEVER said I agree with him I have said I disagree. Have you read whats been happening to me in this thread? Did you know apparently it is easy for someone to use YOUR name and SPEAK for you? Would you like it? Would you like it if someone uses your name so that you get nasty bullying remarks about things you HAVEN’T said? I spent my childhood being subject to bully and I will NOT put up with it now! 0 Reply Iris 28 Nov 2009, 12:39pm JohnK – Yes, I have. I was more interested in what reason Rahman might give for religious leaders’ obsession not his own. I have my own theories, but I’d like to hear Rahman’s. He appears to know very little about gay people and ignorance breeds fear – and, sometimes, hatred. 0 Reply Eddy 28 Nov 2009, 12:41pm Rahman at #314: “And just because I am a Muslim and politely defending my Religion, I became target of all sorts of INSULTS and SLANDERS from certain number of homosexuals who appeared on this forum. Is it fair? No. It is absolutely UNFAIR.” Ah, the cry of the desperate who cannot argue rationally, who can only repeat beliefs from The Koran, and who cannot defend themselves. What do they do? They plead that they are being martyred! Rahman comes in here and sweetly says the monstrous things about us (including about Harvey and 21st) and when shown up and challenged he screeches that he is being persecuted, martyred! Laughable. 0 Reply Harvey 28 Nov 2009, 12:47pm erm Eddy – what? Right so what your saying is its not acceptable to be bullied by Islamic Extremist but because I stand up for myself because someone has used my name without my consent to make remarks for me its absolutely fine for a gay person to be bullied? I guess the person who did the remarks for me must be laughing because he’s got you laughing at your actions against me. Guess he’s got what he wants. Congratulations. 0 Reply Eddy 28 Nov 2009, 12:49pm Harvey, what I meant by “AND HARVEY” is that you, particularly, Harvey, need to focus upon the monstrous things that this “Rahman” has stated. I now suspect that this “Rahman” is just one great big intentional wind-up. Someone has dreamt it up, decided to step in here, seeming to politely introduce himself to us while at the same time saying things of the most monstrous and inflammatory nature. But let’s imagine, as Harvey has, that Rahman is for real. In which case, John K, how’s that list going? Harvey needs to study it, meditate upon it, and imagine the consequences of it. And get real. That’s not bullying you, Harvey. Don’t play the same game as the cowardly Rahman. That’s just talking to you straight. On the other hand, consider, as I am, that this Rahman is just some nutter baiting us, perhaps even someone who is anti-Islam. 0 Reply Eddy 28 Nov 2009, 12:54pm Harvey, calm down, lad, you’re all upset, hot, and bothered! I haven’t said a word anywhere about anyone using the name “Harvey”! I understand that you are upset about it but get over it. There are more Harveys in the world than just you, you know! But, OK, someone pretended to be “Harvey” in order to send you up or whatever, get over it! You’ve exposed it. People can do it. So what! Take it as satire! We can all see that there have clearly been two people using the name Harvey here. No problem. And we can all see which is which. You haven’t been raped! Your virginity has been nicked! Forget it! 0 Reply Eddy 28 Nov 2009, 12:57pm hasn’t 0 Reply Harvey 28 Nov 2009, 12:59pm Don’t treat me stupid Eddy Its clear whats going on and whats clear is you Fully support Bullying and Intimidation. Maybe when it happens to you you’ll feel different. I’m sorry NONE of you feel the need to stop bullying either. 0 Reply AdrianT 28 Nov 2009, 1:07pm Aha – lunch time…. time for a bacon sandwich and a beer. :-) people can believe any nonsense they want – so long as it doesn’t impose on my life thanks. 0 Reply JohnK 28 Nov 2009, 1:09pm Harvey . . . I am sorry to hear what has happened to you in the past. I can see that it feels like you have been bullied on here, I just want to say that this system unforntunately allows muliple identities and people abuse this . . . I have experienced this, and so have many others on this site. I was unaware that his was happening to you on this thread. . . and would like to say that I am sorry if I have colluded with this by defualt. . . one other note please do not blame this on Jean-Paul, JP is a long standing and respected member of this community, and in my expereince would not have duplicated your name. 0 Reply Harvey 28 Nov 2009, 1:18pm Actually I have done this to prove a point. We’re all disgusted at the way we’re treated by Muslim countries and others in their religious texts, its an absolute disgrace that people in those countries don’t have the freedom of speech and choice to be themselves. Yet, as a gay man living in London, I have had MY freedom of speech removed because someone else saw fit to take it from me and speak for me. Much the same way as they do in Muslim countries. Yet when I make the point however strongly, what am I told? I’m told to ‘Get Over It’! Hypocrites much? 0 Reply Harvey 28 Nov 2009, 1:23pm JohnK:- Thank you for your comment. As for who done it I’ll leave that to Pink News to investigate and also I will be pressing strongly for changes to get this practise stopped. 0 Reply Jean-Paul Bentham 28 Nov 2009, 1:25pm holy cow! 0 Reply JohnK 28 Nov 2009, 1:27pm Harvey . . . what you have just mentioned has so affected me, so inspiring, so to the point; and a beautifull synthesis of all our jouneys on this thread to date. . . . I will be thinking about this and your experience all day. 0 Reply Eddy 28 Nov 2009, 1:28pm Harvey wrote: “I have had MY freedom of speech removed because someone else saw fit to take it from me” Oh, for gawd’s sake, Harvey Luv, come on! Nobody has removed your freedom of speech . . . or you wouldn’t be squawking! Get real, sweetie! Don’t be so PRECIOUS. I’m off for me bacon sandwich, too! 0 Reply Rahman 28 Nov 2009, 1:45pm To: 21stCenturySpirituality. As Salaam Aleikum! Thanks for your post 304 and your explanation. You sounds as a nice and cultured person and I would be happy to continue to communicate with you. I cannot agree with you that “…all religions are human constructions…” because Revelation never could be a human construct. In Revelation any human being meets God because of His Grace and Love for a particular human being. Human being becomes a religious not because of some brainwash, propaganda, etc., but because of his personal experience in Revelation. That’s my point. Is any Revelation could be subject of criticism? I don’t think so. How something what is very dear to my heart could become the subject of doubt or any sort of disposal or rejection? That’s impossibility. Can I accept someone’s critique of something what is so dear to my heart? No, I don’t. Can I to be nice and kind to a person who maliciously and systematically attacking my person and completely disregard my DIGNITY? No, I don’t. I do keep my self-control, and possibly up to the certain point, after which anything can happen, wanted and unwanted. You stated: “But it is also observable that there are concepts and ideas put forward by religion which DO NOT work to create positive circumstances and conditions in the world and actually only work to push people away from God and each other and to cause and create immeasurable suffering, disharmony & division.” I do not observe what you stated. There is no concept and ideas in Islam which “DO NOT work to create positive circumstances and conditions in the world and actually only work to push people away from God and each other and to cause and create immeasurable suffering, disharmony & division”. On the contrary, the Islamic concepts and ideas DO work very well in human societies for past about 14 centuries in different countries of the world. If that wouldn’t be the fact, Islam would be gone from the history long time ago. You also stated: “Surely, Rahman, you must concede that what your religion teaches you about gay men and women (and I say this fully aware that Islam is not the only religion that does so) creates suffering for such people.” Why do you think that what my “religion teaches… about gay men and women (and I say this fully aware that Islam is not the only religion that does so) creates suffering for such people”? In my view, my Religion does not create suffering for gay men and women as long as they are Muslims and aren’t someone else. Gay men and women are welcome to Islam as long as they wanted to comply with God’s Order, His Will, and His Guidance. I think this is a very clear matter. It may be emotionally difficult for some gay men and women, but it is possible. It is up to them to make the decision for it. In Islam we do not force anybody to become Muslim – that’s the FACT. If someone do going against Islam and Muslims in general, and do create the disharmony in Islamic society, that person are subject of punishment under our Islamic jurisdiction. What’s wrong with this? In my opinion, is nothing wrong and perfectly JUST. You asking me the question: “…why would a loving, benevolent God seek to make anyone suffer, or seek to exclude people or deny them happiness and fulfillment?” He doesn’t. He made His Law, and that was written in the Holy Koran, and it is up to every human being in the world to accept it or reject it, and get the consequences from for such decisions. Gay men and women are not created as homosexuals: they made their own decision to become as such in violation of God’s plan for Humanity. There no single gene of homosexuality in any specie. That’s the fact of Science. What we have now in the world is the gay propaganda of gay-myth that homosexuality is inherent in homosexuals. However, this is the nonsense. There is no problem from any gay men and women to emigrate from any Islamic country to any non-Islamic country for the reason of their choice to becoming homosexual. Nobody in any Islamic country hold any gay men and women away from such decision. But if they remain in Islamic society, they must comply with the Islamic laws of such society. Homosexually oriented men and women have plenty opportunities in every Islamic country to achieve happiness and fulfillment as long as they comply with the rules, the laws of Islamic country. They are welcome to repent and start up their normal engagement in public life in such countries. Islam made very clear point on this subject, I think. If so, what is the problem with it? I see no problem at all, as long as such person wanted to remain to be a Muslim and follow God’s Guidance in accordance with Holy Koran. Salaam. 0 Reply Harvey 28 Nov 2009, 1:50pm Eddy:- I’ve seen you and others on this thread clearly and rightly feel that it wrong for your freedom of speech to be questioned and challenged. You feel you have the right to Speak for yourself. You attack someone for spouting religious texts, you also attack if your freedom is itself attacked. What right do you have to treat me badly when I am denied my own freedom because someone else has done it for me. I am able to speak for myself. It was not MY freedom of speech that someone placed in My name it was someone else. It lead to bullying and intimidation and false claims. If someone put a argument to someone you knew with facts you didn’t agree with would you except the argument get over it? No you wouldn’t surely you put your point across. This is all I am doing but for some reason you see fit to be a hypocrite and let me I am wrong, I should get over it. Surely I have just as much right as you do, or don’t I? Its funny though, you get uptight and argue you point with 1 Muslim to tell him all he is saying is wrong, that he should respect your point of view. Yet I live here, I’m gay and you think I shouldn’t have the same right in a country where I have the freedom. 0 Reply Jean-Paul Bentham 28 Nov 2009, 2:05pm Harvey, are you saying that you are Rahman? Well, where I come from there are so many people named Jean-Paul that my mother and my teachers and my Boy Scout leaders used to call me “jeepé” or in English “JP”. My father didn’t call me anything; he just never spoke to me at all. He spoke about me a lot…but he never spoke to me… so I got over it. I became a man without him. Foithermore, if youse is so interested in “honesty”, there an organization called Amnesty International that is looking for letter writers for the big event on December 10th. Honestly, you can easily write a good letter to a diplomate or a tyrant. Wouldn’t you like to be creative in a constructive way? There are one or two rules, but you could easily wrap your imagination around those little things. 0 Reply Harvey 28 Nov 2009, 2:06pm Rahman:- no disrepect to ya fella but you do live in a cultural where you are told what to believe. It has been well established that gay people are actually born gay. I know I was. I have too travelled to Muslim countries and know how things are very often surpressed. Lets face, no-one can truely live their lives freely. 0 Reply JohnK 28 Nov 2009, 2:24pm 338 post later . . . what does this tell us about the following: * The beliefs being peddled at the University Islamic Soceities of UCL and City universities in London * The extent of extreme beliefs and incitement to hatred we might expect from the Inam “Abu Usamah” 0 Reply Neville 28 Nov 2009, 2:27pm I understand that after many of Rahman’s comments, copies of the Koran are much in demand by gay people so that its pages can be used as lavatory paper, because that is all it is worth. But it much admired by Muslims who are, of course, infidels. 0 Reply Harvey 28 Nov 2009, 2:30pm I refer you to my original comment (26) that I stated in response to this story & Abu Usamah. 0 Reply JohnK 28 Nov 2009, 2:32pm More, Oh yes . . . Rahman – in a nutshell 1. Gays should not be given marriage or civil partnerships 2. Gays must not be left in care of children 3. Gays must be kept out of the army, police, judiciary, politics or any “position in power” (presumably that includes teachers, scientists, basically any job) 4. Quranic Law is supreme 5. Human rights do not apply to Islamic countries 6. Human rights are the tool of the imperialist West 7. All gays are paedos 8. Insulting religion is a crime 9. All gays must be punished for being gay 10. Everyone must become religious 11. Be courteous of my views otherwise I will not listen to you. 12. Women should be kind, not rude, and considerate of male feelings before their own 13. The west is inherently anti-Islam and islamaphobic. 14. Anyone who questions or disagrees with the Koran is a liar and slanderer 15. Homosexual abuse of children occurs more than heterosexual abuse of children (IE all gays are paedos) 16. No sex outside of marriage 17. There are three types of homosexuals 18. State an extreme position then deny it vehermently when confronted with it. 19. Homosexuals who are nasty and disrespect all muslims and gods law will be punished 20. Gays in various countries does not comprehend the extensions of world’s problems which they now causing to all Humanity. 21.Gay politicians are ungodly and create more problems in the world 22.Western glorification & liberalization of homosexuality will disintegrate society, and cause massive social conflicts on a Global scale. and 23. Because Gays decide to become gay they will need to repent of this before they can be respected by Muslims 0 Reply Eddy 28 Nov 2009, 2:34pm We haven’t yet worked out for sure what this “Rahman Ruse” is really all about, who is really behind it, but we see in post #335 that the writer has decided to turn a corner so that Harvey and 21st must now feel affronted by his position towards homosexuality. 0 Reply JohnK 28 Nov 2009, 2:35pm At last . . . I am off out now . . . please can some one keep updating Rahman’s extremist drivel. Many thanks JK 0 Reply JohnK 28 Nov 2009, 2:39pm Ruse or not . . . I am fascinated by the Stereotypes and projections, Rahman continues to paint homosexuals with. I’m off 0 Reply Rahman 28 Nov 2009, 2:42pm To: Iris. If “Homosexuality is a normal variation of nature” then why don’t you, homosexuals, establish your own country, at least one, somewhere on Earth, for the past 10,000 year, at least? Well, if you prefer to live in fantasy world, that’s your choice, of course. I also think that most of Western homosexuals wanted imitate heterosexual people and for such reason, they wanted establish “gay marriage” and “gay family” in all countries in the world under false pretext of “protection of human rights”, and then they wanted governments to subject all population in different countries to please and serve homosexuals, give them special positions in the social power, and, later on, acting as judges and to take revenge on innocent heterosexual population in compensation of past decisions on homosexuals in various countries in the world. That’s should not be allowed. Period. 0 Reply Harvey 28 Nov 2009, 2:53pm Eddy: by continuely using my name to front your arguments is just another bullyboy tactic. Your slanderous comments prove no point. Please stop using me. 0 Reply Neville 28 Nov 2009, 2:56pm Why,oh why does anyone try to argue with Muslims? By and large, they are ignorant, primitive people who are a danger to the world. Perhaps we should remember what happened to them after the siege of Acre – crusaders played football with their heads, but that was centuries ago when Europe was primitive. Muslims are still at that primitive stage in their development, and for that reason they must be contained in that their ignorant, evil views must not be given credence. 0 Reply Rahman 28 Nov 2009, 3:11pm I am glad that such ISLAMOPHOBE as “Eddy” left some Islamic country, in which he sneaked under false pretext, and does not polluting our Islamic society with his immorality anymore. I hope he never again will enter in any of our Islamic countries. I also think that masses of Muslims need to migrate in all Western countries and begotten as much Muslim girls and boys as possible in order to make Muslims a dominant part of Western population, and eventually take governing positions in Western world and control homosexual movements in the world. That’s would wise political course to practice. Allahu Akbar! 0 Reply flapjack 28 Nov 2009, 3:13pm Rahman @346 – “If “Homosexuality is a normal variation of nature” then why don’t you, homosexuals, establish your own country, at least one, somewhere on Earth, for the past 10,000 year, at least?” By that rationale we should have seperate countries for ginger haired people, people with green eyes… I could go on. I know it would suit your purposes if we all buggered off to an island somewhere, but the problem is that our parents tend to be straight and come from a variety of cultural backgrounds, and that goes for the many gay animals too. Personally I think you’re too hung up on genes as a catch all explanation. But since being the dominant human demographic in a given landmass is your definition of what constitutes ‘natural’, you might want to read up on Ancient Greece. And sorry to disappoint, but Heaven is a gay bar in King’s Cross. 0 Reply Neville 28 Nov 2009, 3:17pm Allah’s rectum! 0 Reply Iris 28 Nov 2009, 3:23pm “Gay men and women are not created as homosexuals: they made their own decision to become as such in violation of God’s plan for Humanity. There no single gene of homosexuality in any specie. That’s the fact of Science. What we have now in the world is the gay propaganda of gay-myth that homosexuality is inherent in homosexuals. However, this is the nonsense.” Ah, now that’s the Christian fundie obsession with a ‘gay gene’ :D Who says there is one? Where do I look to see your heterosexual gene then? Nobody gay is claiming there’s one little ‘gay gene’ that we all share so that’s a pointless comment. As to why we don’t establish our own country? :D Well, it’s an idea, I suppose. :D But the thing is, Rahman, we are much more than our sexuality. Gay people exist in EVERY country and EVERY race, so they may have more in common with their straight neighbours than someone thousands of miles away. Your comment reminded me of that offensive idea by some US (?) man about all people with AIDS being placed on an island – which in turn reminded me that the safest sex you can have as regards HIV transmission is LESBIAN sex. I initially found your comment about being born gay being a ‘fantasy’ offensive. It is a FACT. How would you know if you’re not gay? I’m tired of constantly explaining this to religious people but sexuality is innate. You can’t pretend, you can’t hide it. Electrodes can measure your response to male and female pictures and you can’t fool them. I’ve just noticed your remark about trying not to stare at men. Hmmm. Why would you be tempted to stare at men in a sexual way? Surely if you’re straight you could look at them as long as you like and theyw ould do nothing for you… Finally, you say that gay people want to get into positions such as judges etc so they can exact revenge over heterosexual people. Wow! That’s just paranoia and ignorance. Why would one repressed group want to repress another? All gay people want is to be treated as equal – not better, not worse. We are no – let me repeat that: NO – threat to you whatsoever, and your obsession with gay men is just weird. Sleep with whom you want according to what you think right; believe what you want in the privacy of your own home, as Adrian T has said; but leave other people be. I notice you’ve made no comment on my list of abuse of women in some countries. Until people stop trying to make other human beings out to be inferior because of their gender/sexuality/race then there’ll be no peace. And, if you think that that’s God’s aim – dissent, discrimination and hate – then I feel sorry for you and hope you can open your eyes and realise different doesn’t have to mean wrong. 0 Reply flapjack 28 Nov 2009, 3:57pm @352 – Well said Iris! If homosexuality is so ‘unnatural’ how come it’s been documented in species across the animal spectrum from earthworms to bonobo chimps, taking in sheep, dolphins, penguins, dogs etc. etc. (yes, even those animals who had a choice of gay or straight partners!)? I guess we’re surrounded by libertine animals! 0 Reply Eddy 28 Nov 2009, 4:01pm Friends, I think that “Rahman” may actually be a Jew – a Jew whose intention is to demonstrate the idiotic thinking of your average non-Westernised Muslim! Are you a Jew, Rahman? 0 Reply Jean-Paul Bentham 28 Nov 2009, 4:15pm Your original comment 26!!! That is so passé ! C’est tou’ce que j’peux faire de vivre aujourd’hui aujourd’hui, le ciel est bleu! OK! 0 Reply Rahman 28 Nov 2009, 4:15pm To: Iris. Women in Islamic countries are esteemed as long as they comply with Islamic laws. Nobody abuse women for being women. Let’s not mix criminal conducts with lawful order of particular society. Also in your Western lands certain numbers of women are abused by your democratic and Christian men. I shall remind to you that in certain Western countries, where homosexuals managed to establish so-called “same sex marriages” with “same sex families”, the homosexual “husbands” abuse homosexual “wives”. Abuse has nothing to do with religion. Among homosexuals abuse and violence, injuries and murder, insults and slander, etc., existed. Why don’t you take care of your own homosexuals before criticize Muslims? Did you raise your objections on any single instance of INSULT which was made toward my person on this forum? No, you don’t. Your ethical standing is shallow. You think it is OK for homosexuals like “Eddy”, or “JohnK”, or “Neville” to insult my person. Where is your morality? It is gone, you disposing it for your own conveniences. That’s the fact. Did you express your compassion for Harvey when some really nasty creature steals his identity and used for malicious objectives? No, you don’t. You even do not defend your own homosexual person against abuse on this very homosexual site. As for myself, even I am not a homosexual, and I am a Muslim man, I did expressed my compassion for Harvey, with clear understanding of the fact that he does not agree with my views on homosexuals. My reasoning is simple enough: I do feel my compassion, my kindness, my tolerance and my mercy to homosexuals in general. As for very obvious offenders of Islam and ANY Muslims, I stay aside up to the point of necessity of self-defense, self-preservation. I consider myself as ethical person, and I do exercise ethics on this forum. Great majority of homosexuals does not do that and exposing their immorality in their foul language. Such foul language is repugnant to my mind and heart, and I wonder for how long I could tolerate such INJUSTICE with which homosexuals castigating my person here for being a Muslim man? 0 Reply AdrianT 28 Nov 2009, 4:21pm Rahman – Darwin had better explanations for life, than some 7th century prophet, who could not read in the first place. Evolution explains why we are here, period. And I don’t believe anyone heard any revelations in any cave, at any time in the course of human history. Freedom will prevail, and it will persevere, and it will reach all the corners of the world, because freedom always wins in the end and it’s natural to want to be free and to doubt. Don’t be a slave to superstition, to revelation, to tradition and the authority of people who really, know no better than you, because like you, they do not have a scrap of evidence for anything they are talking about. I respect you too much as a person to respect your utterly ludicrous beliefs. You can walk away from this nonsense, because you have the same brain capacity and ability to do critical thinking as me or anyone else. 0 Reply Harvey 28 Nov 2009, 4:35pm Thank you Rahman, I give up with some very shallow people here. I know I’ll get abuse but tired of caring, I now do see that when someone still supports there prosective but chooses to express it in a kinder way, SOME gay people just find it as an excuse to kick the boot in and be as nasty as they possibly can. They bully and taunt because when they have to abuse and bully they have very much lost the argument and just insulting for the sake of it. It makes them look arrogant and foolish. Like I said before I’m glad you came on here, not for the insults and abuse you suffered but to at least give people a chance to put your side across. As I have stated, I do not agree with how Muslims treat gay people, woman etc but I respect you took the time (and patience) to at least try and answer what was put to you. I do feel sorry for gay people in Islamic states because they have no choice and choice is such a great freedom. However I do have Muslim friends as well as Jewish, Christian, Hindu etc as well as non-believers and treat them all with respect as do they with me. They are all excepting of me and to be honest I need not ask them for more. Freedom of speech can also mean a difference of opinion as well as agreeing but express it in a diferent way. It shouldn’t be seen as throwing abuse just for the sake of it. I take it from this place that if a gay person is attacked in the street you’d all just walk away laughing. 0 Reply Rahman 28 Nov 2009, 4:40pm It is not nonsense to be ethical since I exercise it, while you and most homosexuals do not. That’s my point, and such point standing far above homosexual immorality in most cases. Here is some exception, however, – “21st CenturySpirituality”. Guess why? Because that person believes in God and was raised in religious environment. Most Western homosexuals are unbelievers and for this reason alone they are uncultured and immoral individuals. I can’t imagine meeting a cultured person who is rude, impolite and nasty toward any religion, toward any Muslim. But I know for various facts that most of Western homosexuals are uncultured. That’s your real shame! 0 Reply Harvey 28 Nov 2009, 4:42pm I agree with you Adrian T. I personally think religion was created as a way to keep order turning into choas. Ultimately it will be science that kills us all. 0 Reply 21stCenturySpirituality 28 Nov 2009, 4:47pm Namaste & Salaam once again Rahman. Thank you for responding to my comments and questions. I feel that what is being said in the following videos addresses the questions you raise in post 335. Bishop John Shelby Spong discusses Christianity in the most part in the first video, but I feel that he makes some very relevant points about religion that go some way to addressing the questions you raise. The second video, a talk given by Sam Harris, who has authored such books as The End Of Faith and Letter To A Christian Nation, is one that I have already used in another post here and I feel that it presents some very relevant points to this dialogue and your questions about how religious belief impacts on our lives. As I finished that last sentence the following quote by Martin Luther King sprang to mind: “Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere.” http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PwNmj5h1zds 0 Reply Neville 28 Nov 2009, 4:50pm Who is this nonsensical person called God or Allah? Does he exist in fairy tales which children reject when they become mature. Poor Rahman as well as being mentally ill is immature. Oh, to be both immature and mentally ill as believing Muslims clearly are! What a pathetic individual he really is, as was that evil, so-called prophet Mohammed who in anything other than a primitive society would be receiving treatment for his paranoia and paedophilia in a mental institution! 0 Reply Jean-Paul Bentham 28 Nov 2009, 4:56pm I wonder what Abu Usamah is having for dinner.