i think levels of violence are way higher than those cited.
I don’t know any ‘Out’ ‘Transpeople’ who have not had at least verbal abuse thrown at them regularly and I could tell some hair raising stories of mob attacks, rapes and police intimidation.
Still good to see an attempt to engage in some sort of Meta analysis of the available data.
I’d guess there are far fewer transsexual people than the figures mentioned here. I believe only 4,000 or so have applied for Gender Recognition Certificates. I always feel very uneasy that transvestites, cross-dressers and drag queens are included as “trans”. It’s not surprising that “transitioned people no longer see themselves as part of the trans community”, perhaps there isn’t anyway such a thing as the “trans community” but even if there is, transitioned people mostly don’t see themselves as belonging to it. It’s different from being gay, if you’re gay generally you want to have that fact affirmed (“I’m here, I’m queer”), with trans people we transition to get away from being trans, we don’t want to affirm we’re trans or to be identified as trans, it’s the very last thing we want. “I was trans but I’ve transitioned and now I’m fully a woman”, that’s how a transitioned person MtF would see it, so of course we live (as I do) “in stealth”, where I live no-one has the slightest idea of my past. I’ve strayed a bit from the topic but coming back to it, I’d say it’s hard to see the worth of a study of this kind, embracing every conceivable gender derivative.
jane: a tiny number of ‘Transpeople’ ‘go stealth’ noyt all or even most of them.
The very fact that allot of ‘transpeople’ do not see ‘trans’ as an issue is one of the reasons we’re so shat upon: we hate ourselves and we hate everyone else in the community. No wonder people hate us…
As to other groups rather than thesaintlytransexual being included in ‘Trans’: that’s an old fight, it was lost long ago. You really do show that you are not part of the community any longer.
PFC estimate a ratio (for MTF) of 1 in 20 of the Male population.
Well, of course I’m not part of whatever the “trans community” is, I know that, I said that, that’s deliberate on my part. But there’s absolutely no self-hate or hate of others, I’ve no idea where you got that from. As for the “saintlytransexual”, no sainthood is claimed or fight intended but there is a very obvious distinction between transexual people (transitioned or in transition) and the others all bundled into the “transgendered” category. Don’t get me wrong, please, I’m in no way denigrating anyone in those categories or claiming anything special for transitioned people (you seem to have assumed I am). I believe everyone has the right to state their point of view and I’m really not interested in getting into another argument with you, we obviously differ but let’s not resort to labelling and name-calling, please, let’s be mature.
Thing is, Jane, I suspect those who go stealth go purely because they’ve been fortunate enough to be able to pay for all the feminisation ops available which is why they can go stealth. While some stay with the community, and there is one, and do a lot of good, others feel they don’t have to help those coming after them, even though they were probably helped in one way or another, by those who went before them.
For my part, I think that this can only do good in an already much misunderstood subject. Whether they include people who identify as TV, drag queen or whatever means nothing. Trans folk come from all walks off life, if you had taken or took the trouble to mix with your peers then you would already know that.
angieRS: there’s the old slogan ‘passing is a privilege’ and I h-a-t-e privilege ;-)
You’re correct that there are allot of people who stay in the community. I myself returned to a support group and helped run it after my op as I felt it was necessary to do so.
I’d also like to point out (and Jane may not like this) that some people, such as myself, refuse to accept the ‘trans’ label not because we want to ‘go stealth’ or disappear into the wider community but because we disagree with the label itself. I, however, have no wish to impose my views or identity on others as manny do.
to say that the research is pointless as ‘there are far fewer transsexual people than the figures mentioned here,’ or that the research is invalid because it ‘embrac[es] every conceivable gender derivative’ is rather troubling coming from a Transexual themselves. We need more not less research into our lives and we need it to be as inclusive as possible.
Angie, I was not fortunate financially but I was fortunate physically and no FFS was needed, everything else I did work, save and pay for myself. But of course you are right that being able to pass easily is necessary to live in stealth. I was saying, though, that people who transition, whether in stealth or not, are (for me, anyway) really not helped by being lumped in with people who are in all the other varieties of transgendered. In the eyes of the general public, little distinction is made between people who are intersexed or transsexual and some drag act. Sensible public awareness might come about through actually making that clear distinction.
I quote you ‘some drag act.’ you’r intolerance is is showing.
Oh and in future don’t use the term ‘transvestite’ as it’s not favored by the Cross Dressing community.
Oh and one thing: you completely missed the point that AngieRS was making. She was pointing out that manny do not have the opportunity to ever pass and that ‘passing’ should not be the be all and end all of Trans Identity.
Theotherone, I actually don’t disagree with you on the “trans” label, it’s imposed and not chosen, I would use it in a forum like this simply because one has to use terms that are generally accepted in order to be understood but it’s not a label I’d apply to myself, either.
Your post no. 9, there you go again, labelling and lecturing and telling people what terms they ought or ought not to use. It’s pointless even to attempt any kind of sensible discussion with you.
Ok then Jane. If you think you should not have a helpful hint about the new hip, trendy and politically correct terms in MY ‘Trans’ community then I suppose it would be alright to call you a Freak, a Mutilated Male, a sick and twisted man? I could go on but I’m sure you get the point.
Oh dear, says it all, it has to be “hip and trendy” (do people still use those particular words?) and pc in YOUR trans community. No wonder I choose not to be part of it. Lord have mercy! Call me anything you like, having no vanity I’m impervious to insult. Being insulted by you would be like “being savaged by a dead sheep”.
My,my girls, why are you fighting amongst yourselves?? Instead go out and fight against society and its institutions that promote hate and bigotry against all of us in the LGBT community! Personaly, I think we need more studies like this to help educate people about the plight of trans and LGB people to help eradictae trans and homophobia.
no vanity? You where chastised for your comments about passing and ‘going stealth’ and thought you where being complemented!
No vanity? You, my sweet, are the very definition of the self centered, selfish Trannie the rest of us have to fight against.
If I must clarify my post (you didn’t) ‘MY trans community’ was simply reassuring you that much to your horror some Trans people speak to each other rather than sneer at and/or bad mouth each other. The ‘hip, trendy…’ was meant to be taken with a dose of humor something, it seems, you don’t have.
Now as I’ve explained my post can you explain:
1. why you are assuming that your own identity is shared by all Trans people.
2. Why the term ‘some drag queen’ should be understood as having anything other than contempt behind it.
3. Why you where insulted by me pointing out that Cross Dressers don’t like being called Transvestites and that this is an insult to them?
Jen: I would love to have people like Jane onside for the great battle but she’d turn her gun on other Trannies, Cross Dressers, Drag Queers and for all I know Gay Men, Lesbians and Bisexuals.
Omigod, what a clown, seemingly determined to have a fight.
Look, I can’t be bothered, life’s too short.
Enjoy your feeble existence, published poet!
still refusing to clarify any points you make…
oh well if you don’t come on and make outrageous comments I won’t argue with you.
Nice and simple eh?
so you’ll not make any more outragious statments…
will you clarify the ones you have made?
Published poet, it’s not within your gift to decide what is “outrageous”, it’s not you who will lead “the great battle” (whatever you actually do mean by that), it’s not for you to lecture or chastise, who are you, an obviously sad individual who clings to his trans existence to bring some meaning into an otherwise empty life. No-one is accountable or responsible to you, are you kidding me? Pathetic waste of space. I’ll translate “con” for you, it’s cretin, there, is it clear what you are?
i suppose it’s for you to decide what is acceptable then? You and you alone? What a world you inhabit where you are it’s supreme ruler, to only arbiter.
Who died and made you God?
As to my ‘pathetic’ identity: does that mean anyone who dose not go stealth is ‘pathetic?’ Another point you need to clarify.
As to ‘the great battle’ – again you show that you lack any humor.
Oh dear, look I have other things to do in my life than argue with you. You can say I’m running away, not wanting to respond to your (increasingly abberant and bizarre) remarks, say whatever you like, I’m not bothered in the least! Do seek treatment, though, for your own sake.
ooh jsne: in terms of ‘pathetic lives’ you score3 higher than myself.
musician and musical theorist
Business woman (the business pulls in over £2 million a year)
In a four year long relationship with my Lesbian partner and planning a civil.
cut off from lifelong family and friends
lying to partners
lying to doctors
lying to employees
lying to everyone, every day
filled with hate and fear, never sure you’ve passed every second of every day
walling in fear, hate and lies.
A friend was considering converting to the Jewish faith and asked his rabbi if being Trans was a sin. The Rabbi pointed out that though it was a sin it could easily be atoned for but that lying to yourself and everyone else was a greater sin by far.
something worth thinking about in your lonely, stealthy, Ivory Tower.
You really are utterly and irredeemably stupid.
and you, my dear, are a self-loathing, hate-filled, vicious bitch.
Still refusing to clarify any of your questionable comments then? Still insisting on personal attacks as the way to win an argument…you must have pissed really high up the wall in your ‘former life.’
anyway the points I wish to have clarified again:
4. (a new one) since you think Trans Identities are ‘pathetic’ do you consider any Transperson who does not ‘go stealth’ to be a ‘Pathetic waste of space’?
I’ll not hold my breath waiting on your answers.
A list of insults from yourself:
some drag act
what a clown
Enjoy your feeble existence
an obviously sad individual who clings to his trans existence to bring some meaning into an otherwise empty life.
Pathetic waste of space
cretin, there, is it clear what you are
You really are utterly and irredeemably stupid
Oh and your French is iffy too. ‘Cretin’ is ‘cretin’ you duper. ‘Con’ means something closer to ‘bloody fool’ (a correct translation of your post would be ‘what a bloody fool’ not ‘what a cretin’) which, with your pathetic attempt to look clever, you’ve made yourself look.
Oh and my French would not even maker it into the ‘conversational’ category.
Oui mais vous appeler “con” était bien une gentillesse, en réfléchissant sur la chose, j’ai cru que c’est le mot “crétin” qui vraiment vous convient, donc voilà!
your kindness fills me with horror my sweet but I do not ask for your kindness, rather rebuff it.
so are you answering any of my points or just ignoring them and throwing insults?
Last post, you’re very good at insults yourself so I guess that makes us quits. I have better things to do in my life(actually very successsful and far from your pitifully vicious caricature) than to waste time on arguing with you.
so you’re refusing to clarify your points then? A rather cowardly thing to do my dear.
Well goodbye and good riddance to another person who likes to come on here and hyjack threads.
Omigod, get a life!
i thought you had posted for the last time?
I’m trans & proud of being me.
I suppose i’m lucky in one sense yet I have also seen the other side which is hard.
I work for the NHS & they have been very supportive as an employer, yet as a service user i’ve also seen the other side of the NHS that discriminates against us because we’re not normal.
What is normal.
I’ve faught the NHS during my reasent admissions into hospital with all the transphobic discrimination i’ve suffered & still suffer at times.
?Following one incident that lead me to complain & threatening to sue the local NHS Trust I was asked to do a talk for the drs about what its like which has been included in the Psychiatric Bulleten. I also spoke to the ward managers of the said trust. I’m also involved in educating health proffessional within the largest Mental Health Foundation Trust within the UK for the past 3 years.
I don’t & will never pass 100% but I knew I had a duty as a member of the NHS to say your treatment of us is wrong & the service has to learn to change.
There is still a very long way to go & there will always be someone who expresses transphobic discrimination one way or another but we also as transgendered individuals to fight for our rights & those who are yet to come.
When & if I get my gender recognision certificate along with my operation I will not stop fighting for what is right or for those who find it hard to stand up, be counted & say we have a right to fair & equal treatment within the NHS.
A born again woman.
I’d be interested to know where the funding is for these studies.