Enter your email address to receive our daily LGBT news roundup

You're free to unsubscribe at any time.

Parents’ anger over trans girl

Post your comment

Comments on this article are now closed.

Reader comments

  1. GIRL of 12. and she’s not set to be youngest transsexual, hormones and surgery dont make you a transsexual anymore than screwing people of the same sex makes you gay.

    there are transsexuals out there who are a few minutes old, their not OUT or TRANSITIONED but they are still TRANSSEXUAL.

  2. This comment has been removed by the moderation

  3. Vulpus_rex

    and if they are trans, do they get to sue the people who forced them the torture of living as male for years?

    why is it that the child must be protected in case their actually cis. what about the torment that cntinuing as they were if they were trans? or is trans suffering not as important and making sure that cis people dont suffer at all?

  4. Actually, gender dysphoria can be clearly identified in people younger than 12. The younger transpeople start treatment, the less scarred emotionally they’ll be in the future.

  5. Mihangel apYrs 18 Sep 2009, 1:48pm

    @Xaria
    all children ought to be protected from as much as possible, including making bad decisions. So resources need to be given to analysing the person’s desires and reasons, and resources given to transitioning.

    As Jon said, gender dysphoria can be identified before the sex hormones start ramping up; transitioning should obviously start ASAP (if that’s what the person wants) ONCE they are certain that this is the issue, not something else.

  6. Oh Xaria’s on one again. He’s a F_cking BOY!! He is not a girl or even transitional until there are physical attributes and they can legally change gender. Stop being so right-on-PC.

    On top of that, I agree with Vulpus and Mihangel, after the recent case of the German teenager, even though signs may be obvious, they are still a child, and should be treated as such.

    The article also failed to point out that the boy went back to school dressed as a girl, and was following all female activities without any notification to the parents of the other children in the school. This was liable to cause a lot of disruption in the school, and already bullying has started. Had the parents been forwarned of the situation, they could have discussed the situation with their children and hopefully defused what has now turned into a gawping match.

    http://tinyurl.com/mx5jwy

  7. I’ve spoken with several teenagers who identify as trans in the last few months. All of them state that they knew that they were ‘different’ from the age of five. The ones that appear to have suffered the least amount of damage are those that have the support of at least one parent.

    Vulpus – Do you really want to see young people suffer longer than they absolutely have to? Or is it just that you do not understand trans issues. That being the case I would suggest you do an internet search for GIRES and have a look round their website. Hopefully then you won’t spout such nonsense.

  8. Pumpkin Pie 18 Sep 2009, 2:45pm

    I’ll also testify to the early identification age for trans kids. I’ve known quite a few who have known since they were wee little people. Some even felt a little confused as to why their parents were trying to get them to dress a certain way!

    Basically, if they pass psychological evaluations (and we’re talking about serious qualified doctors here, not “namby-pamby PC-pushers”) then the sooner they can transition the better. Puberty can do a lot of damage to trans people.

    Stop being so right-on-PC.
    Stop being such a colossal asshole.

    legally change gender
    Gender is a social and psychological construct, not a legal one.

  9. Vulpus_rex 18 Sep 2009, 2:47pm

    TWELVE – this boy is TWELVE.

    We do not allow 12 year olds to give consent to sexual intercourse, vote or drive cars, not matter how sure they are about their desire to do so.

    We do not permit this because they are too immature and unsure of themselves to make what are essentially adult decisions.

    Any indulgence of this child’s confusion is nothing better than the satisfaction of parties who wish to legitimise this barbaric decision for their own specious purposes.

  10. This is a girl!! I’m so glad she’s getting help now, good luck to her.

  11. Children become aware of the differences between boys and girls between the ages of 4yrs and 6yrs as the brain is still growing and developing after birth. So it is around this age the child will first experiences gender dysphoria for the first time. Now it is important to define what is Sex and what is gender.

    your sex is defined as your physical primary sex characteristics your bits. Gender however is internal and it makes no outward impression on your body as it is in your barin in an area called the hypothalamus. The difference in brain gender has something to do with the preoptic nucleus of the hypothalamus. Study after study of transsexual brains has shown without doubt male to female transsexuals have have the preoptic nucleus of the hypothalamus of a cis gendered female. While female to male transsexuals have the preoptic nucleus of the hypothalamus of a cis gendered male. This points to the possibility of the gender dysphoria being caused by genetic differences, between transsexuals and non-transsexuals and is a intersexed condition of the brain.

    So what is being done to help this child, who through no fault of her own or her parents, was born a little different to the majority of people. In an ideal world where the NHS is sensitive to the needs of an young transsexuals. The child would be given hormone blockers to stop the onset of secondary sex characteristics, like body hair and the increase in bone density and muscle definition and fat distribution all in the case of this child.

    All these developmental changes will start again once the treatment if treatment was stopped. But this treatment allows the child to live in the gender role and not suffer the effects of her birth sex upto the age of 16, when hormone therapy can be administered to give her the secondary female sex characteristics like breast growth changes in skin density and the development of a female shape. She will need to continue to take the testosterone blockers until she has had a gender reassignment operation that will remove the testicles at the age of 18.

    Despite the fact hormone blockers are approved use by many health services around the developed world on trans children. The NHS cruelly bans the use in the UK leaving trans children to develop the secondary sex characteristics that will cause them mental and physical torment for years to come and make transition harder and more expensive.

    Now some will be thinking gender dysphoria is in the DSM as a mental condition so why allow transsexuals to transition at all. Transsexualism should never be in the DSM just as homosexuality and women who where diagnosed as having hysteria for wanting to vote or live independent life’s where. While it is true that suffer transsexual do suffer from mental health issues because of the social stresses they suffer.

  12. Pumpkin Pie 18 Sep 2009, 3:15pm

    Now some will be thinking gender dysphoria is in the DSM as a mental condition so why allow transsexuals to transition at all. Transsexualism should never be in the DSM just as homosexuality and women who where diagnosed as having hysteria for wanting to vote or live independent life’s where. While it is true that suffer transsexual do suffer from mental health issues because of the social stresses they suffer.

    Just to add a bit to this issue, homosexuality is not in the DSM (Diagnostics and Statistics Manual, the official handbook for those involved in mental health) is because it causes no harm to its bearers (all associated harm comes from outside social factors). It is therefore not a disorder, just a different sort of order.

    The reason gender dysphoria is in the DSM is because it does cause harm to those who have it. Think about it, these people’s bodies don’t fit with their brain chemistry, that’s gonna cause some issues unless steps are taken to reconcile the two. However, the treatment for gender dysphoria IS gender reassignment.

    Abi’s right, if something is listed in the DSM, that means nothing by itself. It’s what the DSM says on treating conditions that matters, thus “it’s in the DSM so we shouldn’t treat them” is of course a ridiculous mindset.

  13. Sister Mary Clarence 18 Sep 2009, 3:19pm

    I’m going to be honest and admit that this is all a bit weird to me (ok, I’ve said it and I’m going to get abuse for it I know).

    However I knew I was gay from the age of four years old, although I didn’t know what gay was at the time. I knew it (or I) was different and I also knew that it was something I should keep quiet about because I wasn’t the same as everyone else.

    As I grew up I learned what gay was and was able to identify that that was me. Life confirmed what I had believed at the age of 4, that it was something I should keep quiet about to avoid problems.

    Therefore, whilst I can’t quiet get my head round this girl trapped in the body of a boy business, assuming that gender reassignment is a valid procedure, from my own experiences I am aware that if something is different, it is possible well before the age of 12 to identify it.

    I don’t think that a few paragraphs on pinknews is sufficient for any of us to know whether this is right or wrong, but it is apparent that the kids is in need of gender reassignment, it doesn’t serve the interests of the child to wait until later in life surely.

  14. Pumpkin Pie 18 Sep 2009, 3:21pm

    Hey, I somehow missed this bit:-

    “What has really upset the parents,” a source revealed to The Sun, “Is that the school didn’t see fit to send us a letter first so we could explain it to our children in our own way,

    “Parents surely have a right to know when their children are being confronted with such sensitive issues as gender realignment at such a young age.”

    This makes me absolutely furious. It is NONE OF THEIR ****ING BUSINESS. I cannot fathom why any of them would even need to know. For those who are accepting, it doesn’t matter that they don’t know. For those who aren’t, it is better that they don’t know.

    What do these parents want? For all trans kids to have a little Star of David on their shirts? Oh, wait, wrong symbol.

  15. Maybe some of you would like to take a look at my documentary, ‘The Boy Who Was Born A Girl’, on 4OD.

  16. Exactly my thought, Pumpkin Pie. I was also shocked to read:

    “The pupils parents, who are under police protection from fear of attack….”

    Fear of attack? Who the hell from? Other parents? Neighbours? How horrible that this child’s private business should have become a public show.

    For my part, I believe there’s nothing wrong with what’s happening as long as the child understands exactly what they’re doing and has been assessed as able to make that decision.

  17. Brian Burton 18 Sep 2009, 3:53pm

    Children and animals, I’m too sencable to become involved!

  18. @ Sister Mary Clarence

    you will never understand fully because your gender and sex match so no doubt it does seem weird to you so no condemnation here for not understanding. However you share some common ground and experiences trans people live through, as growing up knowing your gay must be a comparable in experience.

  19. This story will keep the Daily Mail going for months. It’s like all their Christmases at once!

  20. They’re now under police protection – says it all, really.

  21. Vulpus_rex 18 Sep 2009, 4:28pm

    “you will never understand fully because your gender and sex match”

    Do they have to match?

    Also – The concept of gender as defined above strikes me as an entirely artificical construct that introduces an unnecessary level of complexity in defining ones sex.

    One might identify as of “female gender” (for want of a better expression) but you can’t know that this complies with some ideal standard of being female as no such standard exists – how on earth would you go about it, the desire to wear make up? Clearly nonsense so how does someone “know” that their gender is one thing or the other?

  22. The Doctors should stop this transsexual treatment at kids only because they want attention and the parents think something is wrong with their kid.

    Stop castrating them , just because they wanna be something else. They are Kids.

  23. Jacqueline, I think your perception of this is quite simplistic. I’m sure these decisions are not taken lightly. I wish people would back off out of this family’s business. I’m sure it’s been a very difficult decision for this child’s parents and that whatever they are doing, they are doing in their child’s best interest and with expert medical support.

    It’s fine for all of us to have opinions but we should also learn to show other people some respect and not delude ourselves in thinking that we are the only ones to have a clear idea on what must be done in this situation. It seems quite obvious reading these comments that all the ones who are making a fuss in criticising this family don’t know much about what it is to be a transexual.

    So, please, shoosh, if you can.

  24. Well, the reaction from some of the Gay men on here seems fairly typical. Shame. Reccomended reading? Try the Gender Trust or Press for Change. Or even google for the Harry Benjamin Guidelines.

  25. youd think the LGB community would know better than embrace transphobia (like so many on this site) have done…

    transhobia from gay people or homophobia from transpeople. iv seen both, understand neither and hate both.

    I’m trans, pretty obviousreally. and I knew and suffered from my earliest memorys. my first memory is knowing that im a girl and i cant tell anyone. my FIRST memory. I’v livied in agony because of that. this girl has been able to escape that torment and some of you would just send her bac. do you want another dead transperson? because their common enough.

    anyone remember the child who killed themselv because they couldnt transition? all of you who would deny her this are calling for another suicide.

  26. It’s sad to see the amount of ignorance on here, if we refuse to treat this poor girl she will only suffer.

    I only wish I had got treatment at that age.

  27. Mihangel apYrs 18 Sep 2009, 8:03pm

    Until there is proper information and education about this, and other “sensitive” subjects we – even the well meaning – will misunderstand. Remember children learn their viewa initially from their parents – very youing people don’t see the sex of playmates as being remarkable!

    Sex and gender play such important parts in the West that they are truly contentious. If less was made of “manly” boys and “delicate” girls then the emotional and mental sex differences wouldn’t be so exaggerated, and would therefore not be a matter of so much interest.

    And if we ensured that children with gender dysmorphia were given adequate treatment, if only to hold up puberty until certain was made double so, and the young person could make fully informed consent, then we could stop looking at willies and look at the person

  28. ROBN just why are you back here… I was so happy the past few weeks without seeing your lunatic far right wing ranting anti muslim, anti black, self hating gay bile. Nobody likes you here. I suggest the sun or daily mail websites for you to waste your life in. PLEASE GO AWAY.

  29. Jen Marcus 19 Sep 2009, 1:14am

    My youngest sister is a transsexual and she already knew at 3-4 years old that she was a girl. As one would expect, she tried to express herself, as such, only to be severely disciplined by our father and subject to bullying and ridicule by the neighborhood children and her classmates, to say nothing of the local Roman Catholic parish nuns and priests in the primary school we attended.

    For the most part, I agree with Abi1975 comments, but just a cautionary note: the hypothalamus studies were not totally conclusive because the testing sample population was too small. I understand that more studies are in the works with a greater emphasis and focus on genome research.

  30. Nuriboy: I have as much right to say my piece as any other. At least I am one of a few here with a sensible retort to the constant left-wing socialist jabber that says everything but does nothing.
    In a nutshell, if you don’t like it, YOU F_CK OFF.

    Pumpkin Pie: Neither you, I or any one else can specifically define gender. There is a specific biological and physiological makeup that defines this. You are either born male or female based on physical and hormonal characteristics. There are rare intersex situations such as hermaphroditism, but that is not what we are discussing. In this case it is a perfectly healthy 12yo boy. Whether that person *feels* happy with that situation is entirely another matter. That is something for them, their psychologists, psychiatrists and doctors to work out.

    However, until such time as that decision is made, they should be labelled as nature intended. This child was born a boy, and stays that way until they are old enough to decide otherwise.

    As for the parents “minding their own business” – frankly, it IS their business. If my child was subjected to that situation without my knowledge, I would also be furious. It’s not the matter of the transexual child, but the fact that nobody else was notified and the other kids being dropped into the situation without warning. By doing this they have only made life considerably worse for the transexual boy, as they will now get far worse hounding and potential bullying.

  31. Jean-Paul Bentham 19 Sep 2009, 8:19am

    “There is medical help available. What’s needed is more understanding within the general public, and earlier medical intervention.”

    The comments on this thread so far have indeed given me more understanding of this complex issue that has baffled me all my life (I’m 64 and 100% gay).

    RobN (6):

    Thank you for your stimulating comment and for your reference to this story in the Telegraph.

  32. Robn your reactions to every topic including this one are so predictable.

    For example if the title of a news story was: Boy 16, beaten up by homophobes – you would likely not post a comment. However If it was “boy 16, beaten up by gang of asians” you would have a hell of a lot to say. It’s this fascist double standard you have that infuriates me.

    My family are well integrated, practicing, very hardworking pax taying british muslims. People like you want them deported, the right my mother has to cover her hair taken away, because the bigotry that you have blinds you to any reason or understanding.

    Just like your bigotry and ignorance can’t fathom how someone can be born into the wrong body. How a child who will always play with girl’s toys and girls games may end up with severe psychological damage from the torment of 20 or so years feeling completely wrong and living a lie.

    I’m not a socialist and can be left or right on any topic. I do feel immigration is out of control like you. I don’t feel all muslims are somehow evil and plotting mass shariah to take over because I was born one and am surrounded by them every day.

    The truth is if you took time make friends (GASP) with some muslims or even a transsexual and get to know them as people you wouldn’t have such a polarised GOOD/EVIL attitude towards the world. And maybe your stance on political issues wouldn’t be a carbon copy of the daily mail’s.

    /end of my venting at ROBN rant… sorry people

  33. Mihangel apYrs 19 Sep 2009, 9:49am

    The Sun is squealing this morning about a nine year old biy who went back to school as a nine year old girl.

    If we weren’t so tied up with labels then a lot of problems would disappear. Socialisation has embedded certain expected bahaviour patterns into our interactions, if we no longer required a boy to behave thus and a girl to behave so then a transition wouldn’t be such a noteworthy event.

    People are people first and their sex, sexuality, gender, or hair colour second.

  34. Nuriboy: Aaah! I get it now. I see the colour of your cloth. You’re *asian* with a f_cking great chipati chip on your shoulder.

    As it happens, two of my best mates are devout Pakistani Muslims, and they are of exactly the same opinion as me. Get over this ridiculous persecution complex. My only concern is that Britain is fast becoming a different country. I live in an area of over 80% Asians, and I find that hard to cope with. That isn’t racism, it’s be3ing patriotic to one’s own country. If you don’t like that concept, f_ck off back to your own.

    This is not the thread to discuss this crap anyway.
    Back to the topic:

    It seems the 12yo transexual story is now being overshadowed by a 9yo one. Frankly this is bloody ridiculous, and it needs to be nipped in the bud before it gets totally out of control. http://tinyurl.com/n896r6

  35. This article really lets Pink News down. The author whould have contacted a trans organisation/support group for advice before rushing this one out – it looks suspiciously like this is just plagiarised from the Sun’s woefully transphobic take on this story.

    Usually, Pink News is very sensitive and enlightened about trans issues. Jessica Geen, for instance, would never have made the mistake of calling this young girl ‘Boy’ or ‘he’.

    Just think how brave this young girl must be to face her schoolmates. She is only 12! The least a pink publication can do is take the trouble to understand that she is a girl!

  36. Sorry, I meant to say, “the author Should have contacted a trans organisation”. Oops!

  37. Re-reading this article, I must say I agree with Christina. Far more questions are raised than answered by this garbled article.

  38. anyone opposed to allowing youngsters transition should rememebr the child who killed themself last year because they werent allowed to.

    anyone advocating stopping young transpeople transitioning is advocating for those same childrens suicides.

  39. So should we also stop nine year old boys from being gay RobN?

    You only damage that child by stopping them from being themselves for your own discomfort and lack of understanding of the issue.

    Men especially feel uncomfortable at this subject because they have no understanding why anybody would want to give up male privilege. I believe they see it as a betrayal, as they see themselves as the peak of evolution and woman as a lesser person.

  40. Mihangel apYrs 19 Sep 2009, 1:13pm

    @Abi1975:
    a BIG problem for men is the thought of losing their cock.

    For a lot of them it’s their only thing to be proud of!

  41. that revolting Sister 19 Sep 2009, 2:18pm

    “As it happens, two of my best mates are devout Pakistani Muslims, and they are of exactly the same opinion as me. Get over this ridiculous persecution complex. My only concern is that Britain is fast becoming a different country. I live in an area of over 80% Asians, and I find that hard to cope with. That isn’t racism, it’s be3ing patriotic to one’s own country. If you don’t like that concept, f_ck off back to your own.”

    Does sound just a teeny weeny but rascist though RobN

  42. Pumpkin Pie 19 Sep 2009, 5:22pm

    Pumpkin Pie: Neither you, I or any one else can specifically define gender. There is a specific biological and physiological makeup that defines this. You are either born male or female based on physical and hormonal characteristics. There are rare intersex situations such as hermaphroditism, but that is not what we are discussing. In this case it is a perfectly healthy 12yo boy. Whether that person *feels* happy with that situation is entirely another matter. That is something for them, their psychologists, psychiatrists and doctors to work out.

    The brain is very physical and very important. Sexual dimorphism affects the brain, too, and the brains of transsexuals tend to be wired as if they were the opposite sex to that which their body presents. And it seems doctors have worked this case out. Why are you disagreeing with them? Cases like this have been studied for decades. Probably long before you were even born.

    And I wouldn’t call a child suffering from gender dysphoria to be “perfectly healthy”.

    However, until such time as that decision is made, they should be labelled as nature intended. This child was born a boy, and stays that way until they are old enough to decide otherwise.

    Like I said, seems that decision has already been made. And she is being labelled the way nature intended. What part of your body could be more important to personal identification than the brain? Furthermore, turns out she is old enough to decide. What’s that old medical proverb? “If you listen to the patient, they will tell you the diagnosis”.

    As for the parents “minding their own business” – frankly, it IS their business. If my child was subjected to that situation without my knowledge, I would also be furious. It’s not the matter of the transexual child, but the fact that nobody else was notified and the other kids being dropped into the situation without warning. By doing this they have only made life considerably worse for the transexual boy, as they will now get far worse hounding and potential bullying.

    Once again, why is it any of their business? “Subjected to that situation”? What situation? Having to share a classroom with a trans kid? Should parents also be notified of homosexual kids? “Mummy, am I suddenly going to start liking boys, too?” Sound familiar? None of their business, affects them in no way whatsoever. Unless kids have suddenly become cretins, I’m sure they can handle meeting new and interesting people. Kids were pretty savvy in my day, and that was before the internet was widely used. In short: “won’t somebody PLEASE think of the children!” :p

    Also, the bit about bullying is pretty weaselly. The same argument was used to stop gay parents from adopting. Those in need should always be protected from those who wish them harm, not made to change to avoid harm. And school is the place where this matters more than anywhere else. Also, studies on the mental health of transsexuals who were allowed to transition at school age and then faced bullying, versus the mental health of those who wanted to transition young but were forced to wait, would make for interesting reading. All anecdotal evidence I’ve ever come across points to the former being better off. Anyone know of any such studies?

  43. Pumpkin Pie 19 Sep 2009, 5:36pm

    As it happens, two of my best mates are devout Pakistani Muslims, and they are of exactly the same opinion as me.

    “I have a gay cousin, I can’t possibly be a homophobe!” And you have friends now? Well, I never!

    Get over this ridiculous persecution complex. My only concern is that Britain is fast becoming a different country.

    Happens every decade, it’s called “change” and it defines our very existence.

    I live in an area of over 80% Asians, and I find that hard to cope with.

    See, to me, this isn’t multiculturalism. I don’t like the idea of white areas and “ethnic” areas, either. This country should be far more mixed.

    That isn’t racism, it’s be3ing patriotic to one’s own country.

    Feeling more at home with people you share more in common with certainly isn’t racist (although just about everything else you say is). I can’t fathom how you’d think it’s patriotic, though.

    If you don’t like that concept, f_ck off back to your own.

    Britain was built by immigration. And I’m not just talking about slavery and the exploitation of countries that the British Empire conquered. No, I’m talking abou the fact only the tiniest percent of Britain’s inhabitants are indigenous. You do remember the amount of times Britain has been conquered and then settled by foreign invaders, right? Most of us are descended from these invaders. So, if you don’t like the current situation, why don’t you sod off back to Scandinavia, then?

  44. Black Hawk Down 19 Sep 2009, 6:45pm

    RobN wrote: “You are not worth the wear on my keyboard.”

    Obviously PumkinPie is because you just wore out your keyboard some more!

  45. Monkeychops 19 Sep 2009, 7:17pm

    Whilst you all bicker about who knows more about trans-gender issues, it would seem no-one has looked at the obvious. This child’s body is not fully developed and it therefore shouldn’t be interfered with until it has. Not to mention being mentality mature enough to make the decision and then cope with teh aftermath. Given that 12 year olds chop and change their minds all the time, it would be very foolish to go ahead with this life-changing, permanent move.

    We all know gay men who dressed in girls clothes as kids because they felt more like girls for one reason or another. Many of them said they wanted to be girls when they were very young. But in the end, most of them didn’t actually want to be girls, they just wanted to be the variant of male that they were born and perhaps dress up like girls from time to time. Ditto for many women who preferred more masculine pursuits, games and fashion styles and would have been happier to be a boy. At aged 12 I would not have been in any position to make that kind of decision. Nobody is.

    If that operation goes ahead, the child cannot get its original bits back and if it was the wrong choice, his/her life is screwed. Monitor and counsel the child until he/she reaches physical and psychological maturity and then consider surgery. It would be so irresponsible for such a huge decision to be made in the name of political correctness.

    Those harping on about how horrifically cruel it would be to “force” this child to stay in the (apparently) wrong body shouldn’t be in charge of kids if they are so prepared to make such rash decisions. It would be even more horrific if the child went through with it because that’s what he/she thought he wanted but then it transpired that things were very different at aged 16. It’s worth taking the time to make the right choice, 12 is far too young to be doing that.

  46. ROBN for your information I am not asian at all. My mother is anglo saxon british, converted to islam in the 80s before she met my libyan arab dad who wasn’t that religious. I have lived in the UK all my life so this is MY COUNTRY thank you very much. If I have any persecution complex at all – it might be to do with the fact I have had my father put in hospital for looking like a “paki”, my mum beaten up for wearing a scarf and our mosque covered in paint all because of paranoid bigots subscribing to the same ideas as you. There are different cultures in this country – f-ucking get over it.

    As being half arabic half white am I not entitled to feel patriotic to my country?

    Don’t you realise that we are all human beings above all else?

  47. That’s it Monkeychops keep being spoon fed what the Sun tells you!

    Or you could find out a little about the subject.

    http://www.mermaidsuk.org.uk

    http://www.gires.org.uk

    I am not arguing I am telling you how its is and has always been for trans children and adults. This is not from book knowledge it from my own real life experience and I knew at around the age of 5. Unfortunately I had parents who could not except the fact and subjected me to years of abuse a torture for being myself.

  48. vulpus_rex 19 Sep 2009, 8:38pm

    Well said monkey chops. The idea of letting this 12 year old making a decision like this is repellant and will be something he regrets bitterly later.

    Surgical solutions to psychological issues are not the way forward and should not be indulged in order to prop up the wishful thinking of others.

  49. Jean-Paul Bentham 19 Sep 2009, 8:52pm

    RobN: Your stimulating comments do have a way of bringing facts to the surface, eh.

    Monkeychops: I thought I heard you say on the Jody Foster thread 3-4 days ago that PinkNews was a stinking rag that was rotting your brain, and that you intended to comment in some more reputable gay newspaper.

    Yet, here you are commenting on a topic on which you have absolutely no idea of what your talking about, and have obviously not taken the time to read the excellent medical comments made by others who understand how the humain brain works…when it has not been rotted away by PinkNews, that is.

    You are not one of us in any sense of the word, and never will be. You are an ex-gay homophobic schizophrenic cyberspace shapeshifter, and you are only here to bulldoze and disrupt us, and to demean and insult everyone for your own attention seeking megalomaniac addiction to hatred, the international spotlight provided to you free of charge by this ‘rag’ of a gay newspaper, and to sadism.

    We’ve heard all you have to say time and again, and we are all pretty fed up with you. So why don’t you run along to your momma who, as you say, really loves you, and let her supervise your regular medications.

    We all know how sick you are; how you cannot resist provoking us to anger and then reproaching us as angry, uncivilized gays giving a bad example to the general public.

    The fact is you enjoy hurting gays in public, just like you hurt me for no reason at all when we shared the ‘Jesus…discrimination thread’. You do remember that, don’t you, Marc Anthony?

    These comments are not meant to offend you in any way, as I’m sure you have the maturity and the education to digest an opinion which is different from your own, as you so often say when provoking us.

    Please spare me your answer, which I will certainly not read.

    This 12-year-old girl would be spared a tremendous amount of useless suffering if she went ahead with her transistion…yesterday.

  50. Sister Mary Clarence 19 Sep 2009, 9:38pm

    “This child’s body is not fully developed and it therefore shouldn’t be interfered with until it has.”

    Monkey – No!!!

    Surely if everyone knows its going to turn out wrong in the end, why would anyone let it run its full course before doing anything about it.

    Of course it may be that some people here think that having read a couple of paragraphs in the internet about this story that they know more about what’s good for this kid that the parents and the doctors, but I have to say that if everyone agrees the kid needs gender reassignment, then logiaclly sooner rather than later would be the best option.

  51. Jean-Paul Bentham 19 Sep 2009, 9:44pm

    Most of us will never ever see the genitals of 99% of the people we meet and know, yet we have no hesitation in recognising them as men or women.

    That’s what marks the difference between the social construct we call “gender” and the physical distinction associated with playing one part or the other in sexual reproduction.

    Transsexual people change their role in order to be comfortable with their place in the world as gendered beings.

    So why is it that the medical protocols erected around the pursuit of that harmony are so dominated by the supposed “goal” of genital surgery?

    Is medicine aiming to equip transsexual people for a gendered life or only for sexual performance?

    A few days ago I had lunch with a senior broadsheet journalist in one of those exclusive little places near Parliament where politicians and media folk go to enjoy a quiet unhurried meal.

    I was already at our table when my contact arrived, so I had the
    opportunity to observe her approach: An elegant woman, somewhat taller than me, her outfit oozed business chic – a combination that suited her stature, conveyed the right note of gravitas and yet also allowed room for her femininity too. A small accessory here; an intricate detail in the embroidered edging of her blouse there. Smart, but not overstated.

    Other women in the room glanced briefly to check her out as she made her way through the restaurant. Pigeonholing her in less than the time it takes to blink, their dining companions were unlikely to even notice that flick of the eyes – from shoes upwards to hairstyle – in the way that women socially appraise another woman coming into their space.

    The new arrival’s voice of greeting reminded me of the qualities
    generally sought and valued by women broadcasters – the tones of
    maturity and authority that you want to hear when listening to news and current affairs. When she talked I savoured her measured, educated, choice of words. It occurred to me as she spoke that the pitch,intonation and pace of many women’s voices says more about their social standing and personal assertiveness than about their sex.

    That impression was carried through in her facial bone structure too.

    Her cheek and jaw bones, skilfully enhanced by her discreet use of
    makeup, were the display of a woman who knows how to use her assets.

    These are the kinds of instinctive assessments that we all make about every person we meet for the very first time. Most of the time we don’t even realise that we are making them. They are so automatic that they don’t intrude on the conversation.

    I dare say that the woman sitting opposite was making exactly the same kind of assessments of *me* as she explained about her job.

    It’s only thinking back now on our encounter that I realise how this almost unconscious process tells us so much of what we desperately need to know about strangers we interact with.

    We intuitively use our observations, coupled with our experience of broad types of individual – our very own library of social stereotypes – to flesh out the picture and tell us where *we* stand in relation to *them*.

    Maybe this is why my lunch companion was probably not aware of the
    cognitive jolt she gave me when she casually revealed ten minutes into our conversation that she still had a penis.

    All this is a reminder, of course, that genitals play very little part in social, as opposed to *sexual* intercourse. If you doubt me then try this little parlour game at home:

    Think of someone you know. Consider someone you work with, for instance.

    In most cases I doubt you’d have a moment’s hesitation describing if they are a man or a woman. Yet have you ever seen their genitals?

    Personally I can count the people who’ve ever seen *mine* on my fingers – no need to resort to toes for backup!

    Thoughts about another person’s genitalia are not generally polite or relevant unless you’re planning to have sexual intercourse with them.

    As my encounter in the restaurant shows, our day-to-day assessment of strangers definitely involves pinning a gender label on them from the word go.

    But it’s not done by looking between their legs. Instead we
    look at all the other evidence of our senses instead.

    Unfortunately all this has rather serious ramifications if you’re
    embarked on helping someone to present successfully as the gender they feel inside. It says that you can equip someone with the best new genitals in the world.

    You can fashion a fanny that looks right, feels right, works right – even smells right…

    The same goes for a trans-man’s phallus.

    The owner may be able to have superb mutually enjoyable sex with mind-blowing orgasms to match.

    Yet NONE of that matters outside of the bedroom or beyond the three minutes which intercourse can sometimes disappointingly take.

    I’m not going to know or notice any of that when you sit down to lunch with me.

    Actually the vast majority of trans – *men* serve as the walking, talking embodiment of how unimportant genitals can be from the perspective of social functioning.

    For decades phalloplasty – the fancy medical term for creating a penis out of spare body parts – has been a combination of too expensive and too dangerous for most trans men to try for it.

    And yet, irony of ironies, trans-men also generally have a higher
    proportional rate of success in being seen and accepted in their
    asserted gender roles than some of their transsexual sisters.

    Although breast tissue is hard to disguise and usually needs to be dealt with, the things that help trans-men to “pass” so well are the things that people see first socially.

    It’s essentially a top down assessment in fact – hairstyle or baldness, facial skin quality and beard growth, voice, body language – all features that we see and hear in conversation
    and shout “MAN !” at us.

    All things considered, therefore, it seems strange that the whole gender industry is so hung up about genitals.

    Think about it. The care protocols for helping transsexual people to achieve permanent gender transition are really geared around the goal of genital surgery – and getting there in a way designed to protect the surgeon’s and therapists’ hides in case the client is unhappy about the result.

    Of course, if you send someone out in the world with a magnificent
    vagina, but still unable to interact socially as a woman, then you might very well *expect* a less than optimal result.

    And, unless you get that other bit right – so that the vagina’s owner can be a happy and integrated woman for the 23 hours and 57 minutes when she’s *not* having intercourse – she may not even get to use her apparatus for those other three minutes.

    She may be unfulfilled instead for the *whole* 24 hours!

    Oddly it’s not considered that big a crisis for a trans- man not to have a penis. Men who’ve lost their genitals in warfare or as the result of accidents are still able to function as men. But, when Parliament debated the Gender Recognition Act in 2004, you should have been there to hear the gut wrenched angst of those who obsessed long and hard about the implications for society of allowing women with penises – and men without them.

    What it tells us, in fact, is that it’s not *transsexual people* who are obsessively hung up about having the right genitalia, but the non-trans who surround us with their simplistic (and hopelessly misguided) vision of what determines gender for 99% of the time.

    Yet read the medical literature and you’ll find that the very diagnostic definition of transsexuality involves the assertion that the patient can’t be serious about life long change of their gender unless they turn up loudly demanding that they won’t be complete until they possess the opposite brand of genitals between their legs.

    Since saying that you hate the genitals you’ve got has become such a necessary diagnostic marker, transsexual people have to play their part in this Alice in Wonderland scenario.

    And so it has gone on, in a neatly preserved kind of circular logic for decades.

    It’s doubly odd, since the majority of trans-men finish their treatment with the same genitals they had to begin with.

    So if transsexuality is such a genitally focused affair, its’ treatment in trans-men would have to be considered a complete failure, and all patients should immediately sue for the complete refund of their fees.

    This is not to say that genitals are not important to complete the
    package when making the journey from the gender of birth into the social role you’re going to inhabit for the rest of your life.

    When everything else is right – when we are happy and functioning well as members of the gender where we feel most comfortable and “at home”, other things then become relevant.

    When one’s gender is sorted out and put beyond day-to-day concern; when the people you go to lunch with wheel out the right set of presumptions about *who* and *what* you are; when you’re living in your proper gender role in other words, THEN it may become relevant to think about relationships that go beyond the simply social.

    You may at last perhaps explore the question of more intimate liaisons.

    You can think about your sexual orientation.

    And you can think about what you and that other person are going to expect to find between each other’s legs when the meal is over and you retire to bed.

    THEN and ONLY THEN may it be relevant for medicine to have concerned itself with equipping your body for that short period in the day when two human beings may want to get intimate.

    Maybe if you’re lucky it will be a lot more than three minutes too.

    So the question we must ask ourselves is, “When is medicine going to wake up and have the wit and wisdom to realise that the vision it has blindly pursued for five decades is so obviously flawed?”

    “When can we expect doctors to stop assuming that their job is all about managing regret-free castration?”

    In short, when are doctors going to stop thinking that it’s their job to only prepare transsexual people for a few minutes of sexual function?

    When are they going to start looking hard at the more obvious factors that are going to prepare those same people to have a happily gendered social existence for the other 23 hours and 57 minutes in every day?

    -Christine, sponsored by Jean-Paul Bentham

  52. Its not just those 3 minuets Jean-Paul Bentham, that’s a very simplistic view of the horror I face every day. Its the simplest things in life that fill me with terror, going to the toilet, having a bath or shower and getting dressed in fact any form of contact with that area of my body makes me distressed. I will not be having gender reassignment surgery (GRS) to make others more comfortable or to be more socially acceptable. Its about bringing my brain and body into balance.

    To say the doctors only want a outcome of GRS is a lie many TS’s chose to not have surgery but still have treatment on the NHS by gender specialists. While I would support an increase in services offered to trans patients to include voice training, laser hair removal and face feminising surgery. As for integration that happens in the two years prior to surgery when you live full time in your new gender roll supported by your doctors.

    I think I know the Christine you are quoting and if it is she fits on the the TG side not TS and has long objected for the need for surgery.

  53. Mihangel apYrs 20 Sep 2009, 12:21am

    Some observaions – made in sympathy –
    12 is too young to make a life-changing decision, but not too young to lay down the marker. At this point the child should be allowed to postpone puberty (because of the physical changes) until they are fully aware of the loing term issues BUT should identify as the sex they feel they are.

    Parents of the child’s school-mates need to be informed to explain why John is now Jane. The scxhool should also do so when necessary.

    I keep saying, the person is the same, the difference is how we recognise them.

    Disgustingly, for me the world falls into two camps: the guys I want to shag, and who would shag with me; and everyone else.

    In the latter camp, i DON’T CARE about their genetalia

  54. URGENT – SORRY TO INTERRUPT THE DISCUSSION BUT WILL SOMEONE CALL SECURITY AND ESCORT KANYE OFF THIS THREAD?
    http://kanyelicious.appspot.com/http://pinknews.co.uk

  55. Jean-Paul Bentham 20 Sep 2009, 2:23am

    Abi1975:

    Thank you. I’ve been trying to get your attention for sometime.

    You impress me as someone who is highly informed on the Trans issues, and you must know that the LGB’s are barely aware of exactly what you go through during your lifetime.

    It’s not that I don’t care; it’s that I have seldom met a Trans, and even less a Trans who is willing to share her experience, her pain, her joys.

    I do have one Trans friend, a m2f, who has brought me to understand what living in fear 24/7, or what news about another Trans being beaten in a parking lot or murdered in her own home can do to a human being who happens to be a Trans…usually a very gentle, intelligent and caring human being just trying to make a life for herself like anyone of us.

    That’s why this thread is so educational for me. I have noted the websites mentioned above, Mermaid and GIRES, and at last I can do some of my own research in order to better know, understand, respect and care for the ‘T’ in LGBT.

    For example, it may not occur to you that I do not yet understand the difference between TD and TS, and that my sole purpose for introducing Christine’s testimony on this thread was to support you.

    As it turns out, we have opened a new chapter on Trans issues, one which I completely ignored. Frankly, I am more than willing to follow this thread, not to teach you anything, but to learn as much as I can about the conflicts within your, shall I say gender, that adds to the challenge of peacefully living in and contributing to society.

    In this particular case, unless I’ve completely misunderstood, the parents and doctors have weighed the options with this 12-year-old girl, and, as Sister Mary Clarence says above:

    “…if everyone agrees the kid needs gender reassignment, then logically sooner rather than later would be the best option.”

    In fact, if the gender of a foetus can be detected in the formation of the brain within the womb…do you think it will ever come to that?? Whole new ballgame, eh? Most interesting.

    Call me feeble-minded (I’m 64), but the love I feel for my Trans friend is the kind of love for every good-living human being willing to face the future with an open mind while being torn apart by life’s circumstances.

  56. Jean-Paul Bentham 20 Sep 2009, 2:29am

    AdrianT:

    WHAT THE HELL IS GOING ON? WHAT’S A KANYE AND HOW DO WE GET RID OF IT?

    I SAW IT THE OTHER DAY, BUT I THOUGHT IT WAS A JOKE. DOES JESS GEEN KNOW ABOUT THIS?

    DETAILS, PLEASE!

  57. If you would like to talk further on this Jean-Paul, it could be done via my blog :)

    http://www.abitransgenderedmiltonkeynes.blogspot.com/

  58. Nice try AdrianT, that’s just a nasty little app that you are loading before the pink news site on your link. Its all done with smoke and mirrors :D

  59. Jean-Paul Bentham: “You are a homophobic schizophrenic cyberspace shapeshifter only here to bulldoze and disrupt us, and to demean and insult everyone for your own attention seeking megalomaniac addiction to hatred, the international spotlight provided to you free of charge by this ‘rag’ of a gay newspaper.”

    See. You’re doing it again. That’s not Monkeychops, that’s me. ;o)
    Monkeychops is the one in the blue and red leotard with the big ‘S’ on the front…

  60. Jean-Paul Bentham 20 Sep 2009, 10:59am

    RobN (60):

    I’m afraid you are speaking in riddles. What exactly are you saying?

  61. Jean-Paul Bentham 20 Sep 2009, 11:03am

    Abi1975:

    Thank you. I have added your site to my Favourites and I promise to visit you during the week.

  62. Jean-Paul: I’m saying that I think Monkeychops has some very valid, lucid points to make, and it only seems to him, me and Vulpus Rex that ever stand up against this socialist gay mafia clique hell bent on making sure fags rule the world and that everything else can dissolve into complete anarchy as long as gays have rights.

    As for the Kanye West ongoing joke, keep up with the trendy news boy: http://tinyurl.com/kpfyjf

  63. 12? OMG! Although I am very happy with the way I born (even thought I have sex with boys and girls) it is kind of amazing how things seems so easier nowadays! 12 years old? I even didn’t know what I was going to be when I was that young.
    Kaio
    Melting Duvets Blog

  64. Jean-Paul Bentham 20 Sep 2009, 12:00pm

    RobN:

    I believe my exact words were:

    “You are an ex-gay homophobic schizophrenic cyberspace shapeshifter, and you are only here to bulldoze and disrupt us, and to demean and insult everyone for your own attention seeking megalomaniac addiction to hatred, to the international spotlight provided to you free of charge by this ‘rag’ of a gay newspaper, and to sadism.”

    In other words, you forgot to mention that I believe Monkeychops is a sadist. So regardless of the color of his tights, the “S” on his chest stands for ‘Sadist’, and not ‘Superman’.

    As for you and Vulpex_Rex, I have known you long enough to know tht you are nowhere near the pathological condition that characterizes Monkeychops, and the day will come when he will turn on the both of you simply because he believes you are both idiots for believing a word he says. He doesn’t believe what what he is saying himself because he is suffering from a terribly delibetating mental illness and is more to be pitied than criticized.

    Vulpus_Rex and you have every right to speak up for a centre-rigt point od view; it only adds flavour to the debate. But neither one of you are lower than a snake’s belly, if you follow my drift.

  65. theotherone 20 Sep 2009, 12:31pm

    Robyn: what tosh!

    You claim we are born either male or female but then mension Intersex conditions. Well wait a minute – dosn’t that mean we are NOT nesseseraly born ‘male’ or ‘female’? Surely, if you apply the commenly used principle of Universality (for something to be ‘true’ it must apply to all groups at all times,) then ‘male and ‘female’ are not ‘true’?

    What disgusts me about this story is that the writers in Pink News see fit to call this Girl a Boy and that there are more negitive comments here than on the web site for the Daily Mail.

  66. Brian Burton 20 Sep 2009, 12:54pm

    As I said at 18 spot: “Never work with Children or Animals!”

    All of you are frying your Brains on this one!!!

  67. Monkeychops 20 Sep 2009, 1:25pm

    JP – You just hate anyone that doesn’t agree with you. An anti-democrat and a silencer of free speech. Perhaps you should live in Belarus, there are a few more like you there. RobN and I are gay men with different opinions to you, get used to it. We don’t hate straights, we aren’t paranoid that everyone hates us, we prefer people to take responsibility for their actions instead of blaming everyone else, we hate peddlers of this self-indulgent victim culture that has swept the LGBT world and most of all we are fully integrated into the wider world and would never extol the virtues of the gay ghetto because it goes against our very beings. Moreover, we recognise that not all problems in the LGBT community are caused by external factors. They are often caused by LGBT people. Whether it’s attracting negative attention from selfishly conducting your sex life in public places (cottaging, cruising) or the sky-high HIV and drug use rates. These things are down to LGBT individuals – not governments, not straight people and certainly not from a lack of education. People on here seem to not want to accept that LGBT people themselves may have a role to play in their own difficulties, which both RobN and I clearly find very childish and rather concerning. While that mentality persists, so will LGBT problems.

    Anyway, I’m really not sure why you are so terrified of us, all you do is obsess over our comments and then throw unfounded hypotheses about our “mental illnesses”. It’s just so undeniably cheap, crass and indicative of a puerile mind. Especially when, if you knew your gay history, opponents to decriminalisation did just the same as you – they called gays mentally ill as away of countering their views. How sad that you have carried on with that ideology. You’re no better than they are, just a different kind of moral Nazi.

  68. Sister Mary Clarence 20 Sep 2009, 1:49pm

    “Whether it’s attracting negative attention from selfishly conducting your sex life in public places (cottaging, cruising) or the sky-high HIV and drug use rates.”

    Not actually sure that any of these apply here.

    You and other appear ro be suggesting that we wait until this kid is a fully fledged man, before making a decision about whether to go ahead with gender reassignment (based on a web based news article). Others more close to the kid, parents, medical professions etc., believe that gender reassignment is best carried out now (based on in depth knowledge of the patient, medical history, psychological evaluations etc.)

    I wonder maybe if they had slightly more information that we are actually privy to?

    Frankly with your insight my local hospital could save a fortune if you came and worked there – no need for X-rays, CAT scanners obsolete – does your all-seeing-eye also do lottery numbers?

  69. Brian Burton 20 Sep 2009, 4:59pm

    Monyeyfacechops,
    You slimey slug, still slithering around spreading your licentious crap with Quill pen dipped in venom. You mentioned your Mother the other day you cranky crud. You were not born, speutum like you were invented.

  70. Brian Burton 20 Sep 2009, 5:10pm

    Monkeyfacechops,
    So you think you have RobN ‘netted’ you slime-ball. Well RobN is his own man and is by far your superiour interlectually even though he sounds a bit ‘Blood’n Guts’ sometimes. You have a lot to learn about people. This is why you make so many enimies you crass, ignorant stupid, enemey of the people.

  71. Monkeychops.

    Having different opinions is fine.

    The problem is that your arguments are usually laden with non-sequiturs, appeals to emotion and hysteria, ad-hominem attacks; your claims often lack real evidence.

    For instance,

    “We don’t hate straights, we aren’t paranoid that everyone hates us, we prefer people to take responsibility for their actions instead of blaming everyone else, we hate peddlers of this self-indulgent victim culture that has swept the LGBT world and most of all we are fully integrated into the wider world and would never extol the virtues of the gay ghetto because it goes against our very beings….”

    – What makes you think you are any different from the average gay person in these respects. Hating straights? Not taking responsibility? ‘swept the LGBT world’?
    If you never go out to gay venues, how do you know this information in any case? What makes you think that people who go to gay venues, on a friday and saturday evening, are ‘not integrated’?

    Are gay people, who go to their local venue, and go out with the same circle of friends most weeks, any less integrated than, say, a typical group of straight people (the lads from a rugby team, workmates etc) who end up in the Dog & Partridge every week, playing the same game of pool? I don’t think so. It’s all relative. People go out to socialise and find a mate, whether they are straight or gay. Many gay people are justly uncomforable about expressing affection in their local pub or club.

    If you were as ‘integrated’ as you claim to be, Monkeychops, you would be aware of this. Even in the supposedly most accepting mainstream club venues, like Brighton’s ‘Honeyclub’, there are posters on the walls reminding people that homophobia will not be tolerated. Maybe you think that 2 gay people snogging on the dancefloor should be blamed for provoking homophobic attitudes, in the same way that an unveiled woman should expect to have acid thrown in her face in Karachi or Kabul. That’s where your reasoning leads you.

    While it’s admirable that you have backpacked all over South America, you would be better qualified to speak about homophobic attitudes by simply visiting, for example, a steel works in sheffield or rotherham, and asking them what they think about ‘fookin queers’.

    The fact that these kind of confrontations are becoming more frequent is a sign that gay people are being more daring, to stand up for themselves, kissing in public, walking hand in hand where people thought it previously impossible. Of course some will take offence. They will just have to get used to it.

    Of course, sometimes, even you make some good comments. The trashiness of Vauxhall, the poor uptake of safe sex messages, the bareback porn industry, the lack of critical LGBT media. These are all issues that we need to deal with. But tarring the whole community for the sins of a few won’t solve anything.

  72. Monkeychops,

    Keep on posting. We can’t all think alike!
    Dont be silenced, don’t be intimidated.

  73. theotherone 20 Sep 2009, 8:07pm

    I love it when someone (yet again) hijacks another person’s story to push their own agenda.

    Oh well here goes with the monkeychops post, I hope you’ll just fvck off now:

    ‘We don’t hate straights, we aren’t paranoid that everyone hates us, we prefer people to take responsibility for their actions instead of blaming everyone else, we hate peddlers of this self-indulgent victim culture that has swept the LGBT world and most of all we are fully integrated into the wider world and would never extol the virtues of the gay ghetto because it goes against our very beings’

    -I don’t hate Straights, they hate me. You no like me saying this? Well I was out in town Friday afternoon to get a nice cake from M&S with the other half only to be threatened with violence twice and have to challenge people throwing abuse at me three times. My crime? Not being Straight. I don’t hate Straights, they hate me.

    Now Monkey my old chum, you may say I deserved it as I’m a Transwoman who has a taste for rather expensive shirts and ties, a nice line in colourful silk pocket squares and a small but intriguing collection of ‘city stroller’ type umbrellas. In other words I’m a Trannie who doesn’t dress girly and, to add insult to injury, my partner’s a Butch Lesbian. Now, as I said, you may say that the abuse is my fault but I’ll let you into a secret – it’s not, no more than a woman in a short skirt is responsible for being raped.

    I would love a world where people take responsibility for their own lives, I’m an old fashioned sort that way but Monkey old chap there’s a bit of a problem: if you get verbally and physically abused for just being who you are then you can’t take responsibility as other people are forcibly striping you of this.

    You’re fully integrated? Well bully for you. What do you do for kicks? Think how Straight-Acting you look?

    Here’s a shock for you Monkey my old Mucker: not everyone craves ‘integration’ some people want to be productive members of society without having their individuality ground out of them, some people are not you.

    ‘ Moreover, we recognise that not all problems in the LGBT community are caused by external factors. They are often caused by LGBT people. Whether it’s attracting negative attention from selfishly conducting your sex life in public places (cottaging, cruising) or the sky-high HIV and drug use rates. These things are down to LGBT individuals – not governments, not straight people and certainly not from a lack of education. People on here seem to not want to accept that LGBT people themselves may have a role to play in their own difficulties, which both RobN and I clearly find very childish and rather concerning. While that mentality persists, so will LGBT problems.’

    So if you get attacked it’s your own fault? If you get raped it’s your own fault? If you don’t act Straight you’ll get it and you deserve it.

    Conducting our sex life in public? I don’t conduct any sex life in public, i conduct my emotional life in public: I hold my partner’s hand, we kiss in public, we declare our love in public. Why you so hung up on sex Monkey my friend?

    Now I’ll not call you mentally ill. I’d prefer to call you timid, small midned, stupid, cruel and vicious.

    Now this story is about a young Trans person so why don’t you fvck off Monkey my old chum?

  74. theotherone 20 Sep 2009, 8:09pm

    Jules says:

    Monkeychops,

    Keep on posting. We can’t all think alike!
    Dont be silenced, don’t be intimidated.

    —and don’t be an idiot Jules, you’re even more right wing than Daily Mail readers. You no believe me? Have a look at the comments on their site. God knows it will keep you off this one.

  75. AdrianT: You work on the assumption that if you are gay, all other gay people should like you because we all have some kind of commonality. Hence the so-called “gay community”. In a nutshell I can’t stand most gay men because of their shallow, selfish, vain and often socialist political values, and the only community is the one where they have each others genitals stuck in each other somewhere or other.

  76. Jean-Paul Bentham: I suspect the only reason you are targeting Monkeychops is that he’s had a pop at you and you feel hurt. Trust me I have called many people things a lot worse on here. I suggest you stop spitting blood before you do yourself a mischief, and get back to the topics in hand. If you don’t like someone, just ignore them. Mind you, if I did that, I wouldn’t talk to anybody…

  77. theotherone 20 Sep 2009, 8:30pm

    RobN: spoke like a true Homophobe, you really don’t like Queers having sex do you?

  78. RobN – I ask that people be neutral. I don’t need – actually I do not want – to be liked by people I don’t know or care for.

    ‘Gay community’ – such communities exist in far out places where there’s only one pub or club. In London, Manchester etc, of course such ‘communities’ don’t exist.

    yes, most people are shallow – that reflects life! Go to any dives like Wetherspoons, or an after-match night out with any rugby club and you’ll know what I mean. :-)

    I don’t think a gay person is any more likely to be shallow or selfish than an average person. I think you’re talking a load of crap – so I suggest Rob, you and I fight this out over a beer or six: The Dovetail, Jerusalem Passage, EC1.

    ( http://www.dovepubs.com/pdf/09bottledbeers.pdf )

  79. Mihangel apYrs 20 Sep 2009, 9:47pm

    RobN

    I would say that gay people have a “community of interest” in that there are legal and social matters that adversely affect all of us (inheritance, next of kin etc).

    As a 55 year old man, my overlap with a disco bunny runs as far as he and I think he’s cute, but that doesn’t stop me wanting him to have an easier and safer time than I (and I imagine, you) did growing up queer.

    Who knows, if we can make it better for him, he may not grow up selfishly fixated on himself and looking for the next shag to affirm his self-image.

    I honestly do look to a time when gay kids can hang with their partners and their straight friends at the same time, in the same bars etc. I don’t want sexuality to define people, nor do I want it to distort people’s behaviour to others.

    At that point, hopefully, the problems for trans people will also be handled professionally and by everybody with understanding.

    I can dream can’t I?

  80. PS Yes, people come together when it matters, when there is mutual benefit. Campaigning for equality is one example. Whilever there is a need to campaign, we will join forces. That’s all.

    It’s no different from, say, Arsenal fans, who have nothing in common with eachother, but still, come together every Saturday afternoon.

  81. Brian Burton 20 Sep 2009, 10:46pm

    You Lot of outraged people on this thread. This Boy of twelve is quite forgotten as you all selfishly spew out your irresistible critisism of each other. It’s like swerling around inside a journalistic arena. Writers all writing with quill pens dipped in venom. If only you could see yourselves, slander and folly, you are all acting like wounded hearts and behaving with narcisstic sillyness. Those of you who know what Transsexual actually means have every right to an opinion on this thread. Those of you who are not Transsexual should button your lips. A Transsexual person dose not require interlect, they are a dynamic force on their own like any great force of nature. Transsexuals should only look forward to the future and disregaurd all commers who think they know what they are talking about. But follow your own hearts and belive only what you see and not what you hear.

  82. theotherone: Almost there. I just don’t like queers. Period.

  83. theotherone 20 Sep 2009, 11:06pm

    alas BB, people always venture an opinion ;-)

    And BB: your post should read ‘the girl of 12…’

  84. Jean-Paul Bentham 21 Sep 2009, 2:40am

    Monkeychops:

    You did it again, didn’t you? You’ve got this whole thread disrupted.

    For those who missed your comment on the ‘Jodie Foster reportedly split with lesbian partner’ thread, allow me to let RobN, the Royal Fox, Jules (who is probably MC himself), and the others here gathered, what you really think about them, us and this international gay newspaper:

    “Pink News really has become The Daily Sport of gay media. Time I went to somewhere more reputable before it rots my mind…..

    Comment by Monkeychops — September 11, 2009 @ 17:08″

    And by the way, can’t you read? I asked you to spare me your answer because I certainly would not be reading it, and I didn’t.

    As for the guys who believe they know why I behave the way I do, please take a number and stand in line; I’ll be with you as soon as I moor my sailboat for the winter…. and try to be patient, will you.

    I also have a dying partner, a mentally-challenged sister and a very restless dog on my hands, and I can’t for the life of me remember what I did with my crock-pot recipe for apple-butter, and one of my straight neighbors, his wife and two teenage boys have just loaded my front porch with fresh apples and pumpkins, and they need to know soon if I would like them to do my snowremoval again this winter. Just take a number, and try reading Joseph Conrad’s ‘Typhoon’ while you wait.

    It’s just that a typhoon is precisely what this 12-year-old girl is going through as we decide her future for her, her parents and her doctors.

  85. Jean-Paul Bentham 21 Sep 2009, 2:50am

    “Oh, and for those of you who are remotely interested in what I answered MC when he said that he was leaving this stinking, rotten gay newspaper, PinkNews:

    Monkeychops (2):

    Here’s your hat; what’s your hurry?

    And I only have your own best interest at heart.

    Comment by Jean-Paul Bentham — September 15, 2009 @ 5:42″

    Who cares about Jodie Foster’s feelings, and what do you think MC cares about the feelings of this 12-year-old girl would should have transitioned by now? Dah.

  86. Jean-Paul Bentham 21 Sep 2009, 2:57am

    And oh again, for those of you who need to be reminded of what I said to MC when he proved once again that he is a liar just by posting on this rotten gay international newspaper:

    “RobN: Your stimulating comments do have a way of bringing facts to the surface, eh.

    Monkeychops: I thought I heard you say on the Jody Foster thread 3-4 days ago that PinkNews was a stinking rag that was rotting your brain, and that you intended to comment in some more reputable gay newspaper.

    Yet, here you are commenting on a topic on which you have absolutely no idea of what your talking about, and have obviously not taken the time to read the excellent medical comments made by others who understand how the humain brain works…when it has not been rotted away by PinkNews, that is.

    You are not one of us in any sense of the word, and never will be. You are an ex-gay homophobic schizophrenic cyberspace shapeshifter, and you are only here to bulldoze and disrupt us, and to demean and insult everyone for your own attention seeking megalomaniac addiction to hatred, the international spotlight provided to you free of charge by this ‘rag’ of a gay newspaper, and to sadism.

    We’ve heard all you have to say time and again, and we are all pretty fed up with you. So why don’t you run along to your momma who, as you say, really loves you, and let her supervise your regular medications.

    We all know how sick you are; how you cannot resist provoking us to anger and then reproaching us as angry, uncivilized gays giving a bad example to the general public.

    The fact is you enjoy hurting gays in public, just like you hurt me for no reason at all when we shared the ‘Jesus…discrimination thread’. You do remember that, don’t you, Marc Anthony?

    These comments are not meant to offend you in any way, as I’m sure you have the maturity and the education to digest an opinion which is different from your own, as you so often say when provoking us.

    Please spare me your answer, which I will certainly not read.

    This 12-year-old girl would be spared a tremendous amount of useless suffering if she went ahead with her transistion…yesterday.

    (Report comment to the moderator)

    Comment by Jean-Paul Bentham — September 19, 2009 @ 20:52″

    Is this the same Monkeychops who strongly believes that the gay ‘community’ should be held responsible for every word they say and write, otherwise, what will the general public think of us…Dah.

  87. Brian Burton 21 Sep 2009, 7:17am

    The otherone, Your Boy/Girl remark shows I do not Know the Transsexual subject and so I do not comment.

    Jean-Paul, Thank you Good and Faithful, The Monkey is Caged!

    RobN, Pretend I’m Sidney Greenstreet. “You are a Card Sir!”

    Adrian T. You are Too Beautiful for words, lovley Boy!

    Theotherone, There is one place we all hope to land one day..Utopia, I can only wish you the best of Luck.

    Mihangel AP Yrs, Indeed, where would we be without Dreams?

  88. “Hence the so-called “gay community”. In a nutshell I can’t stand most gay men because of their shallow, selfish, vain and often socialist political values, and the only community is the one where they have each others genitals stuck in each other somewhere or other.”

    Stupid generalisation. In truth, the less like you people are RobN, the more of a human they will be. I don’t particularly see racism and a lack of education to be something I hold at any high esteem.

  89. Will: I am not racist, just patriotic. A word most socialists decry as being “insular” and “isolationist”. However I would rather be on my own than with a crowd of people that I cannot associate with.

    As for lacking education, I have an extensive academic training including an MSc. Gay men only use the term “community” when they want something and like to demonstrate a force in numbers. If a collection of selfish individuals all have a common goal of helping themselves, that is not a community, it is just a mob.

  90. Brian Burton 21 Sep 2009, 9:26am

    I was forgetting my little book of Shakespeare verse marked for September:— All the world’s a stage and all the men and woman merely players; They have their exits and their entrances; And one man in his time plays many parts. (As You Like It, Act 2)

  91. “If a collection of selfish individuals all have a common goal of helping themselves, that is not a community, it is just a mob.”

    Are you taking the piss? If you’re referring to a bunch of people at your local gay bar as the “gay community”, you got your math wrong mate, that’s hardly the sum total of gay people. Generalisations tend to go hand in hand with stupidity, so don’t project your tantrum throwing anger at the world on me and other gay people. You’d think a man of your age would have more wisdom and sense.

    Oh, and I sincerely doubt you have an M.Sc, not one from a reputable university at least…. Banging together a web site company is not high end computer science, I’m afraid, most school kids can do the same.

    “Will: I am not racist, just patriotic.”

    Really? Is that the PC word for anti-anyone-that’s-not-from-my-country crap? And I have seen your brand of “patriotism” before on this site, many times…. its very similar to the delightful BNP’s version of “Patriotism”. I’m sure Nick Griffin calls himself “patriotic”… in the same way you’d call Myra Hindley “maternal”.

    In truth, you’re nor different from the pompous idiots who waved Hitler into Austria with open arms believing themselves superior, and then wondered where it all went wrong when they found themselves on a cramped carriage to Dachau.

    By the way, why are you not using the mane Monkeychops any more? Bored with your alter-ego, are we?

  92. Will, where is the evidence that ‘Monkeychops’ is RobN? This is most unlikely. In his take-it-or-leave-it retorts, Rob is snide without taking offence.

    But the giveaway is that (unlike the vast majority of schoolkids) Rob is a conscientious grammarian, who would never mix ‘you’re’ with ‘your’, nor miss apostrophes and commas from sentences. On that crucial point, I’d trust him more than MC if I needed a website.

    oh, we must stop finding any excuse to take cheap swipes at other forum members :-)

  93. Jean-Paul Bentham 21 Sep 2009, 11:22am

    Ronkeychops:

    Now that’s what I call self-perpetuating transgenderism (no offense intended, Abi1975). Quite creative actually, like Dr. Frankenfurther, or was that Tim Currie on a good day?

    Wasn’t Coleridge addicted to opium?

    And what was the name of the guy who wrote an English novel entitled: Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde? Agonizing way to live, but again, quite creative.

    Well, could be worse…what’s his name??? Something…Ripper? Hello Mylène Farmer!

    “Oh, what a troubled web we weive, when first we practise to deceive.” Did I get that right?

    And then there’s Dante, lost in a forest halfway through his life.

    There is something “eternal” about great persons, isn’t there?

    Oh yes, Alan Turing for sure!

    And Mme Curie, too, bien sûr!

    Oh, there I go with my puerile background noise again.

    It’s like falling in love – I can’t help it.

    Does anyone have any news about the 12-year-old girl…?

  94. PS I’ve just heard it’s the Rapture today.
    http://home.flash.net/~evt/rapture.htm

    Is everyone still here? Rob? MonkeyChops? Will? Lezabella? ANYBODY? Don’t tell me there’s only me and JP left…..

  95. Can I just point out that the Editor, Jessica Geen, has returned from holiday and corrected this article. Thank you, Jess.

    The transphobic comments on this thread show that trans people still need to do a lot of educating. It is depressing to see that so many gay people are unable to empathise with this young girl’s feelings. It it really that difficult to imagine yourself in her shoes?

  96. theotherone 21 Sep 2009, 11:53am

    Can we all just ignore monkeychomps and his rabid crew?

    As JP pointed out: they have disrupted another thread and if we ignore them they’ll go away.

  97. Brian Burton 21 Sep 2009, 12:18pm

    Chiistina,
    Sweet girl, are you the ‘T’ I remember. Anyway, your right on the button deary. These Popijays of Proes no not what they are saying, excepet for Theotherone who is Transsexual. You two ought to corrispond.

  98. Adrian, it seems that’s what he’s admitted to Jean Paul, he’ll be able to clarify.

    Also, see of of this recent posts:

    RobN: “In a nutshell I can’t stand most gay men because of their shallow, selfish, vain and often socialist political values, and the only community is the one where they have each others genitals stuck in each other somewhere or other.”

    Remind you of anyone who said the same thing recently?

    As for the rapture today…. well, I did have a problem trying to get some training sorted for one on my employees, and my coffee was a bit colder and more bitter then normal…. could this have anything do do with the end of the world? Don’t tell me I missed it! Well, if it the end of the world, I’m off to burn down my neighbours house for cheap laughs… I mean, who’s going to stop me?

  99. finally its been changed for the better. took them long enough

  100. Brian Burton 21 Sep 2009, 12:33pm

    Theotherone,
    One thing about MonkeyFacechops, I told a ‘True Story’ of Hartlepool up in Durham that’s where they ‘Hung The Monkey’ The story they tell in Hartlepool is, when a French Brigg was captuered during the Napolionic wars. They found a Monkey on board dressed in civilian clothes. The aurthorities thought that it was a French spy, so, they put the Monkey on trial and sentenced it to Hang……Monkeychops was not amused, I wonder why?

  101. theotherone 21 Sep 2009, 12:37pm

    a classic little tale of group hysteria that one, I remember laughing my head off when I first heard it.

    Problem is, bb, that monkeychoped isn’t a French spy as the French have a decent record on Queer Rights.

  102. theotherone 21 Sep 2009, 12:38pm

    xaria: it did in deed take them long enough.

  103. Brian Burton 21 Sep 2009, 1:03pm

    Adrian T.
    Religious nutters have been predicting the ‘WORLDS-END’ since I was a Boy. One year we were all advised to climb Mount Blank to avoid destruction. Nostradamus preicted the world would be destroyed in 1999 and we are still the right way up and breathing.

    Whoever Monkychops is or is not, he has caused a lot of dis-harmony on the threads that he has wanted to commandeer, and insist his opinions are the only opinions worth listening to.

  104. Allana Strain 21 Sep 2009, 1:05pm

    with this much rubbish being uttered is it any wonder the general public are so confused about transexual issues, never mind the wider view of the transgender umbrella and its many variations. I’m just glad that the majority of you are not trans, and more so that you are not transexual. I have to live with this condition and make the best of my life as I can. It’s not something I’d wish on anyone as its so difficult to keep in control, but I, like a few TS’s I’ve met, always knew we were different. We don’t ask for your sympathy, just your understanding that we were born with this condition…..it wasn’t chosen, or developed by nurture. Leave the young ones alone, and let the authorities and the transgender organisations help them come to terms with it all.

  105. To be honest it doesn’t bother me. If twice as many people are writing incoherent nonsense, it is still, at the end of the day, incoherent nonsense.

    Though, on most forums, sockpuppetry leads to permanent bans. PinkNews’ editorial team would be able to tell immediately, and I would encourage them to take appropriate action if that were the case.

    I am still unconvinced.

  106. Monkeychops 21 Sep 2009, 1:24pm

    “Problem is, bb, that monkeychoped isn’t a French spy as the French have a decent record on Queer Rights.”

    If you’d ever read any of my posts, you would have seen that I am actually half-French. And actually, no, the French don’t have a better record than the UK on gay rights (yes, gay rights, not Queer Rights, the term queer is highly offensive, though perhaps your usage of it indicates your own self-hatred). Whilst I cannot prove or disprove your mistreatment at the hands of straight people (as you stated earlier), your overwhelmingly paranoid statement of “straights hate me” doesn’t really warm me to you.

    Adrian, you said:

    “- What makes you think you are any different from the average gay person in these respects. Hating straights? Not taking responsibility? ‘swept the LGBT world’?
    If you never go out to gay venues, how do you know this information in any case? What makes you think that people who go to gay venues, on a friday and saturday evening, are ‘not integrated’?”

    As you never actually read posts or just don’t remember them, I have to remind you that I have been out to many gay venues all across the world. I barely go these days because of exactly what I have pointed out – it gets reconfirmed every time I go to one just how heterophobic gay people are. It’s beyond that in fact, it’s a paranoia. Now, I won’t tolerate either homophobia or heterophobia , but this site demonstrates that gay people think it’s ok to generalise and fear straight people as a collective, but not for straights to do the same to them. That’s hypocrisy and I have no time for that. Add to that the fact that only in gay bars (and not sex clubs, just regular gay bars) do you find back rooms and such an intense and frequently aggressively sexualised atmosphere. Why do we need to bring sex lives into the public domain like that? Every other bar has tight policies on it and that’s right as far as I am concerned. And also, if you crack onto me and I rebuff you politely, you do not have the right to bitch back at me because you are hurt by rejection or just cop a feel anyway. If straight blokes did that to girls they would be thrown out. But somehow, because it is widely accepted within gay venues that you can just grope who you like, I am apparently supposed to forfeit my right not to be? No way, talk about how to degrade yourself. When you go into a gay venue, you get a completely different kind of attitude, level of sleaze, seeming desperation for attention and narcissism. It’s just grim. And you see it again and again and again, from one venue to the next no matter what country you end up in. Now, of course, you’ll turn round and say that this is all rubbish and that I’m a self-hating gay like you normally do, but I’m afraid you aren’t in a position to tell me that this is not the case because you haven’t lived this experience for me, have you? And also, wouldn’t it seem that as someone who isn’t promiscuous and that desperate for physical affection that I will literally sleep with whatever I fall upon, that I may just have a bit more respect for myself? You’ve got to have pretty low-self esteem to do that. I don’t have low self-esteem but according to people on here, I should be apologising for that. My views are based on what I see, experience, read, view and a whole other manner of things and I can only draw my conclusions based on those. You are not privy to any more information or experiences than me and to suggest that you are is a little arrogant, don’t you think?

  107. Monkeychops 21 Sep 2009, 1:48pm

    “Of course, sometimes, even you make some good comments. The trashiness of Vauxhall, the poor uptake of safe sex messages, the bareback porn industry, the lack of critical LGBT media. These are all issues that we need to deal with. But tarring the whole community for the sins of a few won’t solve anything.”

    That’s all very well recognising the problem, but despite the fact that we have the greatest level of control over our own destinies since time began, we still have the same problems as twenty years ago – meaning that it’s far more self-inflicted that people are prepared to accept. If we were talking about the sins of a few, then you would have a point. But we aren’t, we are talking about thousands of people (and whether that is actually only a small proportion of gay men as a whole is irrelevant, it’s the numbers that are significant). Those irresponsible few/many/whatever mean that we all have to suffer the impact from the negative attention we get. And that is far more unfair than being over-generous with a generalisation of gay male behaviour. However, no-one seems concerned about that on here. Perhaps many gay men don’t actually care what attention they get, so long as it’s attention full stop. Well I do. What is the point of me bettering my own life when the image of me goes unchanged by the general public because a fair few selfish dickheads letting me down? That is a gross injustice. As I cannot change my sexuality, the only thing I can do is point out to said selfish people that I am not happy about it and that maybe they should reflect on the way they behave to spare other people the stigma and negative press. A straight HIV sufferer doesn’t get all straight people labelled, but one gay sufferer will draw a hell of a lot more attention. We know that, so why is it still happening?

    I remember Yasmin Alibhai-Brown commenting in the Guardian during the MP expenses row about how she was more disappointed in Shahid Malik than the others because he should have known better than anyone. He was from a minority background, had experienced discrimination and should have set a better example. I agree. And I feel exactly the same about other gay men. Every time a gay man gets HIV, caught cruising or appears in the media in a negative way (all through their own doing) I am more disappointed in them because they of all people should be aware of the stigmatisation and suffering more than the ignorant masses. It makes us look like we are stupid, needy, second-class and incapable of looking after ourselves. For me as an individual, it won’t really matter in my day to day life as, like everyone else on here, my friends and family know my character and the values I stand for. But I do and should care about how I am perceived by the wider public – after all, I do meet people who I don’t know on a regular basis and I don’t want them judging me on pre-conceived ideas. For safety if nothing else. I just wish other gay men would think about how their behaviour affects other, more responsible people. It seems no matter what we try, we cannot make them and thus we continue to have these negative labels attached to us. I am fully aware that some things I say cut close too reality for some people to acknowledge here, but living in denial is never good. I don’t, I know where our problems lie, I know what to expect out on the scene and I can anticipate that it will not be doing us any good.

  108. theotherome 21 Sep 2009, 1:50pm

    go home monkeychoped, no one’s listening any longer.

    This storie’s about a young Trans Person, not you.

    Please everyone: ignore Monkeychoped from now on.

  109. Jean-Paul Bentham 21 Sep 2009, 3:22pm

    I no longer think of Monkeychops without thinking of RobN.

    To me, I are ignoring Ronkeychops.

    So, to get back on track, as in the LGB communities, there is a divergence of opinions concerning gender re-assignement surgery, just as definite definitions of sexuality in general are difficult to formulate.

    It actually is mind-bending for me. Is has to be more tangible to a Trans of any age, especially someone young where rationality plays a less dominant role. Intuition can and does seize the truth instantly, like a flash of genius.

  110. Well, your experiences of gay people are very diffierent from mine Monkeychops. Still, all I can say is, in the words of the late great Keith Floyd is simply: ‘don’t worry, have another glass of wine.’ :-)

  111. AdrianT: Well to paraphrase yet another of Keith’s wonderfully droll, yet direct comments: “You’re all a bunch of c*nts”

  112. How delightfully intelligent of you to say so, RobN. You never cease to amaze me with your varied lexicon and stunning brilliance when it comes to witty retorts.

  113. Brian Burton 21 Sep 2009, 6:55pm

    Blow me a Kiss from across the room, say I look nice when I’m not.
    Night and day when your far away, Little things mean a lot.

  114. Will: Don’t blame me mate, I was merely quoting the indefatigable Keith Floyd. (Mind you, he was spot on there)

  115. Sister Mary Clarence 21 Sep 2009, 7:02pm

    RobN have you had a head injury lately or something? You’re always been a bit further to the right and less touchy-feely that most people on here, but you’re turned into a bit of a nightmare in recent weeks. Has something brought on this full on bitterness that is present in all your postings on here? Is everything okay?

  116. AdrianT: “A conscientious grammarian”!? How VERY dare you! I went to a public school if you don’t mind!! And what do you mean I’m snide? I can be as foul-mouthed and obnoxious as the next man.

    Oh, and one further thing, unlike Monkey, I am not prone to typing out huge swathes of prose to justify my arguments.
    Either agree with me, or piss off.

  117. Jean-Paul Bentham 21 Sep 2009, 8:53pm

    Ronkeychops:

    As I said in my post 86:

    “We all know how sick you are; how you cannot resist provoking us to anger and then reproaching us as angry, uncivilized and superficial gays giving a bad example to the general public.”

    Something else that betrays you is your addiction to the international spotlight of PinkNews, and your desperate, superficial need and desire to bulldoze and disrupt a thread for no apparent reason than to draw attention to yourself.

    Accordingly, here we are talking about you instead of the immediate, legitimate need and desire of this 12-year-old girl who has stimulated the most intelligent Trans’ I have ever read to give the LGB community an education of a lifetime.

    But you don’t care about that, eh Ronkeychops, because it has too much of a human spin to it, and after all, you do owe it to yourself, in order to develop fully, to appear as monstrous as you really are at all times.

    Drinking Tequila from the bottle again, are we? Momma will smell your bre-e-e-a-a-a-th…!

    Again, no offense, but you’re mother is calling you.

  118. To the point. I wouldn’t want you any other way, Rob.

    Look, if you started being nice to people, well it just wouldn’t be you. In fact it would be almost as heartbreaking as eric clapton announcing he was teaming up with stock aitken and waterman.

    Now, sod the lot of you.

  119. Jean-Paul Bentham 21 Sep 2009, 9:47pm

    Generally, I avoid making fun of others. Really, Acadians much rather laugh at themselves, and boy, have we been dumb.

    For example, I had been looking for the TV’s remote control for an entire week. Then, I went to get an onion from the bottom tray in the fridge, and there it was.

    But sometimes I find that people’s self-image, especially when written down, can be quite amusing.

    For instance, here’s one:

    “Strong willed, opinionated, sometimes dark, creative, technical, generous, cynical, artistic, funny, passionate, argumentative and not always the easiest of people to get on with, but getting to know me will reap benefits.”

    Sounds like the Evil Witch in Snow White, doesn’t it?

    Actually, it was posted in the members’ list of my.pinknews.co.uk by someone called RobN.

    OK, break’s over! haha!

  120. theotherone 21 Sep 2009, 9:47pm

    Jean-Paul: I’d be happy to discuss Gender and Gender related stuff here, discuss the outer reaches of ‘Trans’ identity where ‘Gender’ looses any meaning other than (to Quote Charles Fort) ‘a fit set of clothes to wear for today.’

    I’d love to do all this, to discuss the plight of Trannie Youth but alas we have the idiot jukebox of insults from monkeychoped and Robinbastard. I wish they would just go away.

  121. Jean-Paul Bentham 21 Sep 2009, 10:01pm

    …hahaha! Still laughing.

    Then there was the time I went to post a letter; bought a stamp and stuck it on the envelope.

    Instead of dropping it in the mailbox, I openned the envelope and read the letter! Really.

    PING! There goes another marble!

    haha!

    Let’s get serious. You start, Ronkeychops.

  122. Jean-Paul Bentham 21 Sep 2009, 10:15pm

    theotherone:

    Thanks for getting in touch. I promised Abi1975 that I will be visiting her blog this week. Hopefully, I will be seeing you there.
    I’ll try tomorrow. We are 4 hours behind you here in Canada.

    I think the Trans community has achieved all it can on this thread.

    You are welcome to continue, of course, but the whole thing has become contaminated, and I now understand better than ever why I have so often heard it said that the LGB community doesn’t take Trans seriously.

    It’s not that we generally don’t want to know, it’s just that the clowns take over the show before the parade is over.

    This clown, Ronkeychops, is pinching his nose with one hand and holding a dead skunk by the tail at arm’s length with the other.

    May as well laugh… the best medicine, just ask my friend,Brian Burton!!

  123. Brian Burton 21 Sep 2009, 10:50pm

    theotherone,
    I doubt wheather anyone is in the mood for discussion about Gender related stuff. There is too much blood being spilled on the floor of the arena of these ‘Charioteers’ battling it out to the death. I find it desperatley depressing and sad. Mistaken ID is involved I think as happened when I accused you (mistakenly) of being a Religious Fundermentalist which we had been having trouble with, which made us all jumpy. It’s like a perfect stranger telling you that being a girl is all in the mind…it would put your hackles up! I am in a Civil Partnership since 2006. But we have been together conciderably longer. I have worn my share of fish-net tights and feathers at parties and it was always the invited ‘streaght’ who fancied me. When I took to wearing Leather and riding a motocycle, life took on a different stance!!!….Stay loose sweet maid…cheers!

  124. theotherone 21 Sep 2009, 10:58pm

    I’ll try to get over there JP but work commitments are mounting up (I’ve got a set of documents for new employees to fill in needing designed over the next few days, a website nearing completion and a pay run to assist with…but I’ll try to make it over.

    BB: I’m trying to get the udderhalf to go for a Civil. I may wait some time…

  125. Jean-Paul Bentham 22 Sep 2009, 12:42am

    theotherone:

    My partner and I are retired, but we did work long and hard for what little we have.

    In the meantime, I have noted the name of the author you mentioned (C. Fort), and who knows, I may sound a wee bit better informed when we do meet again, and we will, you know we will.

    Still, I will continue to visit this thread with tomato juice, just in case the skunk is just playing dead, if you get my drift.

    Well, even a skunk has to have something nourishing to drink after such an ejaculation, which I believe is all the rage in the poppy-growing industry.

    Don’t worry, Kim Petras will likely not struggle with those who want what’s best for her, unlike Ronkey-Baby.

    Signed: A. Tilla

  126. As usual, JP is barking up the wrong tree, whinging about irrelavancies. He is going to be SO red faced when he finds out he’s been having a go at the wrong guy. I have never been anything but civil and polite to him, but he has this bizarre bee in his bonnet that because Monkeychops took a swipe at him, (and I think rightly so), and that I supported him, that somehow, we must be one and the same person.

    I know you’re getting on a bit in years JP, but I didn’t think the unfounded paranoia had go so bad that you have to make some irrelevant comment about myself or MC every time we make a remark, not to mention having your own personal little area to have a go at everyone you don’t like.

  127. Brian Burton 22 Sep 2009, 9:59am

    RobN, Jean-Paul,
    Stop this Blood-Letting now, It’s not as though it is amusing to the onlooker…more like bum-cheeks tightly nipped together when we wince and say UGH!!
    It’s an Ill wind that blows nobody any good and you are both farting this Ill wind around this thread and it’s comming at us like a Tonado. Now, the pair of you, RobN and Jean-Paul, IT ENDS HERE…RIGHT?

  128. Calm down, calm down!

    Specially for JP and RobN….

  129. What was this article about again….?

  130. This might be a futile attempt to re-rail the conversation, but returning to the article…

    Most transsexual people know from an early age that their gender does not match their exterior physical sex. When I say ‘early age’, I mean pre-puberty and even as early as 3 or 4 when one’s gender identity is first established. This is manifest in ‘identifying’ with one parent or the other, interest in particular clothes/toys/games, choosing girls or boys as best friends, gravitating to particular role models, etc etc. As the child gets older, they usually become aware of differences in the bodies, dress and mannerisms of others and see the mismatch with their own. Psychologists, psychiatrists, sociologists etc have studied cognitive/identity development for a hundred years and studies show that core identity is fixed at an early age.

    Adults who never experienced any dissonance between the external sex of their bodies and their internal gender identity are often surprised that a child can be so sure about their gender identity. However, that is precisely because it was not an issue for them and they have forgotten just how self-aware children can be. If you need any proof about the strength and certainty of gender identity, just try to give a barbie doll to a boy of 12 who is boy-identified. You will see how adamant he is that he is a boy and that a barbie is not an appropriate gift. The same applies to a trans girl – she will be just as adamant that she is a girl.

    Once a trans person takes the brave step to come out, the cat is out the bag. It is not a phase. It is not a joke. This society is so ‘gendered’ that it would be social suicide to ‘pretend’ about something as serious as this.

    The correct intervention, in my informed opinion, would be to prescribe hormone blockers to this 12-year old girl. They do that in the Netherlands and it is very successful. In the very unlikely possibility that the girl changes her mind after the age of 16, then male hormones can be given to stimulate the growth of facial hair and muscles. However, it is far more likely that she will want female hormones when she is 16, followed by gender confirmation surgery.

    The benefits of hormone blockers to parents would be that they simply delay puberty until the girl is old enough to make an ‘adult’ decision. The benefit to the girl is that she is saved the development of inappropriate sexual characteristics like facial hair, pronounced chin and brow, muscles, large hands and feet etc which would make her adult life a misery.

    Anyone who says she should be made to undergo male puberty should just try to see things from this girl’s perspective.

  131. p.s. I have been told by a gender research organisation that in the Netherlands, where they can prescribe hormone-blockers, there is a 100% continuation rate. That is, every single child who requested and was given hormone blockers has gone on as an adult to have gender reassignment (sex change).

  132. @Christina . . . thanks for steering us back towards the original content of this thread with some interesting debating as opposed to bating material

  133. Thank you, JohnK. What are your views on this subject?
    :o)

  134. theotherone 22 Sep 2009, 1:42pm

    Are you not yourself, Christina, guilty of strong Gender Stereotyping with your comment about the appropriateness of dolls for boys? Surely we should not be getting our Gender and Gender Roles confused?

    Out of intreats: Gender awareness is first observed in children around the age of four but has been observed earlier if parent’s use strong Gender Stereotyped behaviors and attitudes infront of the child. Gender has nothing to do with brain development, it has to do with Socialisation.

  135. I never started this slanging match in the first place. I am quite happy to continue with the thread. Anyway, God made me say it…
    (Well if it can work for Miss World, it could work for me. Hrmph.)

    All this stuff about having latent feelings at an early age is not always true. Raging hormones combined with a difficult age and other socio-psychological influences can really screw a kids head up. Most kids go through an experimental phase, and I ‘fiddled about’ with boys at that age. What is interesting to note is that I was the only one of them to eventually turn out gay. (Even then taking another 20 years) – I just think that this is all rather ‘jumping the gun’. I don’t think it is wise to suppress the child’s desires, but equally, they should not be promoted either. Let the situation lie dormant till at least 16, and then one can start to make firm decisions. Putting 9yo boys in dresses is simply ridiculous and pandering both to the child and the socialist do-gooders that are probably doing more harm than good.

  136. Are you not yourself, Christina, guilty of strong Gender Stereotyping with your comment about the appropriateness of dolls for boys? Surely we should not be getting our Gender and Gender Roles confused?

    Out of intreats: Gender awareness is first observed in children around the age of four but has been observed earlier if parent’s use strong Gender Stereotyped behaviors and attitudes infront of the child. Gender has nothing to do with brain development, it has to do with Socialisation.

    Hi theotherone,
    not at all, I was making no judgement about ‘the appropriateness of dolls for boys’. In fact, I think the rigid gender stereotyping of children in relation to toys is unhelpful and restrictive. It was merely an observation.

    With regard to the nature/nurture debate, there is lots of evidence for biological as well as sociocultural factors. It is very difficult to sustain an argument for either biological or cultural determinism. Nature/nurture debates are usually resolved by accepting that there are a variety of causal factors. In other words, genes and hormones in the womb affect the development of physical and brain sex characteristics. Studies by Schwaab, Gooren and Diamond demonstrate that there are differences in brain structures between genders. Trans women, for instance, have brains which are like those of non-trans women. These brain structures influence gender. Then, sociocultural factors influence development of gender further. Genetic and hormonal factors predispose, sociocultural factors refine behaviours.

  137. @theotherone

    “Gender awareness is first observed in children around the age of four but has been observed earlier if parent’s use strong Gender Stereotyped behaviors and attitudes infront of the child. Gender has nothing to do with brain development, it has to do with Socialisation.”

    . . . I am in agreement with you on this line. There was a study conducted some years ago that looked at the responses from mothers to new born male and female babies on a maternal ward.

    Disturbingly they found gender sterotypical reponses, male babies were handled more robustly than female babies which were treated as if more delicate than the males.

    It was concluded that these earlier handling behaviours were full of implicit assumptions about the psychological and emotional differences between male and female babies. . . on sterotypical lines

  138. Socialisation is only part of the story.

    There are many factors which determine gender: genes, hormones in the womb, primary and secondary socialisation. These factors all interact.

    Genes determine primary and secondary sex characteristics including the formation of brain structures. Despite what second-wave feminists like to believe, there are differences between male, female, trans and intersex brains.

    Google “Schwaab”, “Gooren” and “Milton Diamond”.

  139. . . . but to respond to Christina, I also think that the Nature-Nurture debate is important with evidence on both sides . . . but I am more inclined to take the view of “plasticity” at an ealier age of development rather than “Permanent hard wiring”, other wise the environment would exert no effect. . . ie that critical periods are also important in human development – so to speak

    I am going to contradict myself now and say that the case of “Monozygotic twin studies however does seem to offer the most convincing eivdence concerning the role of genes and hard wiring over socialization.

  140. Jean-Paul Bentham 22 Sep 2009, 2:42pm

    If you’ll allow a brief interruption in this most interesting persuit of the orinal topic of this thread, i would like to take a moment to express my apologies not only to RobN, who most certainly did nothing to provoke my childish public behavior, but also to the members of the Trans community whose discussion I myself did disrupt.

    Please accept my humble aoplogy.

  141. JohnK: What you say may well be true, but I dispute it’s findings. It is rare that monozygotic twins are split up at birth, so they are both exposed to the same socio-psychological (phenotypical) influences. It is also important to note that the 9-14 year old period in boys, 7-11 in girls is the most influential period in a human beings life, as this is where the ‘plasticity’ is at it’s most malleable. After this stage, it begins to ‘set’ and we remain what we have become. This imprinting is a crucial part of growing up, and if the wrong signals are imposed on a child at this time, irreparable harm can be caused. Likes, dislikes, fears, phobias, sexual preferences and fetishes and far more are created at this stage and will often stay for the rest of that persons life.

    I suspect that some gender identity is created here too, although there are many other possible genotypic and phenotypic influences at work. I think it is wrong to force a child to be something it is not, but equally, we should not impose our beliefs on it either.

    Let nature take it’s course. She knows far more than we do about these things.

  142. “Actually, gender dysphoria can be clearly identified in people younger than 12. The younger transpeople start treatment, the less scarred emotionally they’ll be in the future.”

    I figured before reading that a kid could never know they were in the wrong body for sure at that age.
    Kids anyway say the stupidest things sometimes

  143. For those who want to find out more…
    Here is a review of the scientific evidence, compiled by an expert panel:
    http://www.gires.org.uk/assets/atypical-gender-development.pdf

  144. p.s. @ RobN and Jean-Paul Bentham, thanks for re-joining the discussion.

  145. RobN said “JohnK: What you say may well be true, but I dispute it’s findings. It is rare that monozygotic twins are split up at birth, so they are both exposed to the same socio-psychological (phenotypical) influences.”

    I thought that the point about monozygotic twin studies is that they usually look at twins who did NOT experience the same socialisation, otherwise how could they isolate the effects of genetic influences? Also, in relation to gender development, “phenotype” usually refers to the external, physical sex characteristics, not to “socio-psychological” influences as you suggest.

  146. The point I was making about monozygotic twins is that those twins which where separated at birth . . . when studied later researchers found that the twins had remarkabley similar lives: partners who looked very similar, identical jobs, tastes preferences, childhood accidents . . . although genetically similar, their respective environments where not . . . despite this their lives where remarkably very close to identical if not identical.

    These are rare as RobN points out, but clearly strong evidence for genetics in these cases.

  147. There is a problem with the idea of critical periods, i.e periods of plasticity leading to hardwiring and fixed situations.

    Current research from neuropsychology and psychotherapy has found that psychological interventions can have an effect on brain structure, with some studies point to the reparative or even regnerative effects of certain intentsive forms of psychological talking therapy treamtents on brain structure.

    I think this is probably still supports the view that critical periods exist, but points really to the idea that change becomes more difficult.

    Sort of want we already knew at an intuitive level anyway.

  148. @ John K. I shudder when people mention reparative/conversion therapy in relation to gay or transsexual people, because it usually means they are advocating a ‘cure’ for homosexuality or transsexuality. There are recent studies which support this, yes, but they tend to be produced by people who already advocate such ‘cures’ (often religious people) and their studies are usually found to be biased.

    Such therapies were used for decades to try to ‘cure’ transsexual people and were found to bring, at best, temporary remission of gender dysphoria. At worst, the practice resulted in acute self-hatred and suicide.

    The practice was abandoned decades ago in favour of more sympathetic treatments.

    There has been a recent and controversial resurgence in the advocacy of reparative therapy by the, usually Christian, ‘ex-gay’ movement.

  149. Brian Burton 22 Sep 2009, 4:45pm

    Christina, JohnK,
    Even though I am no way on a par with both your interlects. I understand most of what you are saying, and I certainly want to understand Transsexuality…Thank you for my enlightenment.

  150. Brian Burton 22 Sep 2009, 5:02pm

    All I can say to this very young Trans Girl…Good luck in the future.

  151. Christina: Both John and I are discussing a very narrow window in a childs developmental process where they are very receptive to external influences and suggestion. It is like moulding a jelly that hasnt set properly, but by the time that child gets to about 20, those ideas are rock hard and almost impossible to alter. That is why so many “sexuality reprogramming” efforts fail. The sexuality is as you described, ‘hard-wired’ and cannot be changed.

    I am not suggesting that socio-psychological effects cannot influence ones sexuality, or apparent gender, and my opinion is that it is predominantly genetic, but I do think it can “throw switches” that reinforce that persons direction.

    Incidentally, phenotypes are defined by physical characteristics, and external effects upon an organism, be it social, environmental or physiological. Hence the nature/nurture = genotype/phenotype

  152. theotherone 22 Sep 2009, 7:15pm

    Please do not misunderstand me when I point to the role of Socialization in the formation of Gender Stereotyping. I was not suggesting that this alone held the key but…

    The idea of ‘male’ and ‘female’ brains has been questioned recently and any differences (particularly in terms of size and/ or responses to stimulus) can be easily accounted for by the way measurements are taken, by the calibration of equipment the itself.

    The medicalisation of Gender Identity is not something that will set us free but rather a continuation of the project of 19th Century Sexologists who sought to recast Homosexuality as a pathology, a disease (or rather dis-ease) to be controlled.

    Differences in bodies do exist but calling these differences ‘Gender; is not approaching the truth of them but merely giving them a name and a name which is itself heavily loaded.

    Indeed the very act of defining difference may itself set up exclusions and, while giving our bodily forms legitimacy, may damn other bodily forms. To rephrase: to define the body we need to define not the image of the body but what the body is not (as Aquinas would say ‘we can not define what God is, merely what God is not’) and, in doing this, we must damn other bodies to allow ours to exist.

    I should stop now as this post is getting complicated and I’m cooking a curry. Yum (how girly is that!)

  153. theotherone 22 Sep 2009, 7:16pm

    also: I find some posts here troubling and suggestive of the idea that people are being influenced to be Trans or Gay.

  154. Getting back to Trans issues. . .

    Christina, I shudder too when I hear the Reparative arguments of Exgay Christian Fundamentalist . . . unfortunately there is evidence to suggest that sexuality can change and this is well known in transexual studies. I think most of us on these threads are in agreement however that although sexuality may be fluid, the change has been skewed in one direction only. If homosexuals can change to heterosexuals presumably, heterosexuals can develop a homosexual oreintation. . . Transexual studies points to this fludity and possibility

  155. But before you think I am some “Exgay Christain Fundamentalist Crackpot” . . . I mean changes in sexuality due to the influence of taking oestrogens or testestrone, as seen in some transsexuals.

  156. theotherone 22 Sep 2009, 8:30pm

    i think, john, there are other things to consider regarding Trans Sexuality.

    People have been, perhaps, seeking to live as the role ascribed to them and taking sexuality as part of that. Freed of a prescribed gender then a person#s true sexuality can be expressed.

    Other’s may wish to adopt the given sexuality of the gender they identify as ie. I’m only a Lady if I fvck men.’ This is, ofcorse, not a true sexuality.

    Others (such as myself) identified as Gay/ Lesbian because we knokw we where not Hetro but had not identified that they where Trans. I identified as Gay because I wasn’t her. I was in my late 20’s before ~I realised I was actually a Lesbian

  157. I think you are right Theotherone. . . transexuality appears to be far more complicated than simplistic Nature-Nurture postionsing in relation to Transpeople . . . and I think one reason why this debate has so far been quite intense is that Transpeople challange our assumptions and understanding of what we mean by “Sexuality”, “Gender” and what it is to be a “Man or Woman”

  158. theotherone 22 Sep 2009, 8:48pm

    perhaps you’re correct there johnK.

    Gay and Lesbian identities are built upon a bedrock of sexuality. Transexuals (I will use the term here though it raises my philosophical hackles) challenges these ideas and the very basis of Gay and Lesbian identities.

    The problems for Heterosexuals are even more acute. Heterosexuality is built upon the preservation of Gender Identities, Gender Roles and without these the core of Heterosexuality is lost – it’s opposition to and superiority to Homosexuality.

    No wonder Trannies get into bother…

  159. theotherone . . . I love your clarity in 158 (A great synthesis)

    and I wish I could have said that . . .

  160. Well it is common knowledge that physical sexual characteristics do not show until 6-7 months of pregnancy, and that the standard genetic “template” is female until an additional X chromosome is introduced, which then triggers various hormonal responses begin to define the gender of the baby.

    What I think is still a big unknown is how this affects the brain. I don’t wish to appear sexist, but there are many psychological differences between men and women, (and that’s before we even open the can of worms called “sexual preference”) – as to why women are sensitive and tactile, and men are aggressive and drink lager, I don’t think anyone really knows, but I would suspect the genes deciding gender will lean appropriately to the DNA of the mother or father. I think this transcription could always go a bit pear-shaped and get the coding for the appropriate gender back to front, but that’s just my guess, I’m no geneticist.

    “I find some posts here troubling and suggestive of the idea that people are being influenced to be Trans or Gay.”

    I do think there is a lot to be said for external influence, however I don’t think it’s a matter of “turning” someone. I think that many people have a latent homosexuality/transexuality, but it doesn’t always realise itself, and I suspect many people go through their lives never fully realising what they actually are, but just having this constant nagging feeling that something, somewhere is wrong. I have had it myself. Sometimes it needs circumstances or events to trigger the process. Sometimes these events may never occur. Sometimes you only know who or what you are until you compare yourself to others. That is my definition of “influence” in this case.

  161. theotherone 22 Sep 2009, 10:02pm

    robN: you have described Gender Stereotypes not Man and Women or even Male and Female.

    As to my clarity a few posts back: thankyou for the complament.

  162. theotherone: I can call myself a London Bus if I want to, and demand that people call me Edna. However I am not that tall, not red and I don’t have wheelchair access. How people define themselves is not the point; Nature works on the principle that most higher forms of life come in two genders. That isn’t a stereotype, that’s a FACT. It’s a little recipe that has been stewing and improving for millions of years, and it doesn’t need a bunch of f_ckwit social scientists to redefine because it might hurt someone’s feelings.

    Stop throwing leftie semantic mumbo-jumbo around that just muddy the already unclear waters. I recognise there are variances, and frankly what some may consider dysfunction, but there are ‘norms’, even if some people are rightly offended when referred to as “not normal”.

  163. theotherone 22 Sep 2009, 11:37pm

    but robN you’re wrong.

    Nature isn’t bigenderd, it’s multigenderd.

    Humans alone come in a bewildering variety of Genders (if you are defining Gender on a Chromosomal level.) There’s xx, xy.xxy, xxx…I could go on. There are multiple X and multiple Y ‘Genders.’

    There are not two Genders and, frankly, if you’re going to start screaming about Leftie nonsense I’ll just ignore you for the nasty little Troll i believe you may be.

  164. This has become a really interesting thread – please don’t let it descend into personal sniping again.

  165. theotherone 22 Sep 2009, 11:55pm

    My apologies christina, I do not mean to snipe. I thought that RobN wanted to discuss these issues and still hope that he does, I’d like him to enter into debate and was merly pointing out (a little bluntly perhaps) that bombast will destroy the debate.

  166. Bored now.

    Seriously, this thread has more tangents than the Soho one-way system! The topic at hand is a 12 year old girl who just so happens to be 46XY. Say what you will about the indecision of kids, maybe she will grow out of it, but for now she identifies as female and it is right that we respect that. She can’t have hormone-replacement until she’s 16 or any kind of surgery until she’s 18, end of. There’s no way around that. What people don’t get is that being in transition does not necessarily mean that a person will take hormones and have surgery next week on Thursday – it’s a protracted process that can often take the better part of a decade even with a mature adult.

    A thing that does cause contention on this subject is the issue of GNRh analogues (better known as “hormone blockers”). Let’s be clear: a hormone blocker is NOT a hormone. It causes no permanent changes and no lasting effects. All it does is delay puberty for a few years to let the kid reflect. Puberty, after all, is very emotionally traumatic for a trans kid. If at 16 she’s changed her mind and decides she’s a boy then a quick jab of testosterone will kick-start his endocrine system and he’ll be like any other teenage boy in a couple more years. No harm done. There really is no need for people to get all het up about it.

    A little knowledge dispels a lot of ignorance.

    Artemis

  167. Brian Burton 23 Sep 2009, 7:50pm

    Artemes,
    Re-Queer Youth…Queer is and always has been a derogatory term for ‘GAY’ men and woman in this country UK. So you can stick your Queer conceptions where the Monkey sticks it’s nuts…in your ear!

  168. theotherone 23 Sep 2009, 8:41pm

    alas it’s not that simple3 is it? Isn’t it good if people ask questions and have them answered?

    Hardly a tangent.

  169. Can I just say that I am a rather feminine guy (hence me using my girl’s name, that a friend gave me) but who is not a transexual, didn’t even go through the whole hatred and everything for having feeling to guys and so I am someone who does not understand why someone would want to have surgery and everything. But, and this is a very big but, but I have sat reading the tales of real transexuals, in these comments and even actual articles and it is extremely saddening the clear suffering that they go through, and it’s almost as bad when I read the comments on here from these inconsidate non tran-sexuals on here who think they understand transexuals better than the transexuals.

    I really do hope this kid goes on to live a normal and happy life and I hope there are many others like her. Saying that, I hope they find/have a very effective method of finding out which ones are real transexuals, I dunno whether there would be a kid who if once transitioned would change their mind but the idea of it happening is quite sad not only for the poor kid who didn’t know what they were doing but for all young transexuals, if one kid changed his mind it could so easily cause them to put an age limit on it.

  170. The way I see it is if an adult was to have sex with a nine year old boy, they would be locked up. Why? Because of “loss of innocence”, “Below the age of consent”, “a child unable to make adult decisions”, “an act that could psychologically scar them for the rest of their lives” and many more clichés…

    Now view those self-same reasons and apply them to people pandering to a 9yo boy that thinks he’s a girl. I am on no account comparing transexuality to paedophilia, but one can see the parallels, and the reasons why I and many others are deeply concerned that children are being steered in this manner. It is disturbing at best, and downright immoral at worst.

  171. RobN, your argument is similar to those who don’t want to expose little kids to the “horrors” of homosexuality. There is a big difference here, at such a young age they wouldn’t know very much about sex and what they want in such areas but transexuals have said they have known since the age of five (there might be some who knew even further back), it’t hardly a whim and just to allow them something they have known basically all their life (or more, all their life they can remember) of which it would stop them suffering seems to me that there is no question in allowing them.

  172. With regards all these tangents . . .

    I understand some of you have not heard of . . .

    “Trans-Trigonometry”

  173. “and downright immoral at worst.”

    And folks, in another thread, our factious friend here, RobN, admitted he’s celebrate by choice….doesn’t this explain a lot? The catholic use of words like “immoral”, seeing the see the “parallels” with paedophilia?

    Rob, are you an ex catholic priest or something?

  174. George: I’d celebrate you being knocked down by a bus.
    At least I can spell, you illiterate cretin. “Factious”? That’s not even a word. “Immoral” is not a Catholic word, it’s an upstanding and conscientious word. One that you obviously know nothing about.
    And I have hardly ever set foot in a church, let alone a Catholic one. If you are going to hurl brickbats at people, at least try and form a coherent sentence.

  175. You’re a f#!$ing idiot so.

    fac·tious
    adj.
    1. Of, relating to, produced by, or characterized by internal dissension.
    2. Given to or promoting internal dissension.

    Buying a dictionary will help you look less stupid next time.

    As for the bus comment, maybe get a shag, and you wouldn’t be so full of cranky old fart anger?

  176. I agree with George, RobN is quite distasteful. Clearly stupid too. I wouldn’t stop at buying a dictionary if I were him, there’s a lot of work to be done in the intelligence department there.

  177. theotherone 24 Sep 2009, 10:36am

    Blondie: you can do what ever you like :)

    I sometimes wonder if it’s possible to ever completely understand another’s feelings but you can get close. Thinking this way I’m often reminded (I appoligise for using a religious analogy but I find them vaguely humorous) St. Paul who, properly translated, tells us that the greatest virtues are ‘faith, hope and empathy.’ Empathy is a good thing, the best we can give anyone.

    As to robN: just ignore him, he’s looking for a fight and to derail the argument.

  178. I would like to get us back on some sort of trans-track again, regardless of how tangential this might equally become.

    Responding to the issue raised by RobN concerning “Gender Stereotypes”

    In my view stereotypes only become stereotypes because they contain an element of truth, and remain in place because they act as a mental short cuts or heuristic devices to comprehending the world.

    All I want to do is raise some of the problems, contradictions and curious anomalies with regards gender which I do not think are in any way resolved . . .

    1.Evidence from Trans-transitioning – Some female to male transsexuals have described the effect on first taking testosterone, i.e. that it sharpened their mind made them more focused and aggressive.

    2.Evidence from Anthropology –In the Hopi Indian tribe, it is men who stay at home looking after the children and chatting to each other and occupying a nurturing role, in contrast it is the women who go out hunting.

    3.Evidence from Western Consumerism – We may hate gender stereotypes as LGBT people but flick through the toy section of the Argos catalogue to find boys toys still concerned with war, killing etc; and girl’s toys connected with nurturing and caring.
    Just as well the Hopi Indians do not have a local branch opening soon

    When you Transcend gender – Trans people I feel threaten peoples mental short cuts (Simple heuristic devices such as stereotypes) and so increase our anxieties because understanding the world becomes more difficult.

  179. Brian Burton 24 Sep 2009, 11:25am

    theotherone,
    The reason why this sizzling thread is going on and on and being so acrimonious is because the subject is a Child! Glad to see you know St. Paul. Will all of us, I wonder meet our destinies on the ‘Road To Demascus?’ Anger always depicts fear, and calmness wisdom. Wisdom you have Ms. theotherone and that did’nt come to me in a flash!

  180. With regards . . . St Paul and knowledge.

    The idea that we do not see things clearly, as if looking for a dirty glass.

    I think this is apt and pertinent to our lack of understnading with regards gender, sexuality, masculine and feminine idenities as exposed and challanged by trans people.

  181. theotherone 24 Sep 2009, 1:59pm

    perhaps you’re correct JohnK, perhaps there’s something else worthwhile in Paul for us to plunder.

    As regards Gender, sexuality, Gender Roles ect. I’d suggest that we approach them in the way we would (or rather should) approach any dateset: begin with a blank sheet and allow the data to suggest it’s own truths.

    Two great examples of not doing this which are pertinent to our discussions are that a 19th century researcher into ‘sex hormones’ in Chickens set about selecting Cocks (snigger) who looked very virile and, to his horror, discovered that they had what he considered ‘female’ hormones in them.

    A Victorian researcher found Homosexuality to be prevalent in Rams but buried his findings not because of issues of sexuality but because Homosexuality was not ‘masculine.’

    Never look at data with any preconceived idea or you’ll corrupt the findings.

    As to the idea that somehow because this person is not an Adult they must be protected from themeless/ evil predators looking to corrupt them: not only is this a replication of Homophobic arguments but it’s also symptomatic of how we view children. Children know their own mind, they can think rationally and make decisions. We seek to keep them as children because we have a Victorian idea of an extended childhood which came about, at least partly, because of the Victorian how shall I put it…obsession with Children and Children’s sexuality (it is also evident that this myth of Childhood is another part of the growth of the Nuclear Family as a tool to keep both Workers and Women in check during the industrial revolution.) Before the late 19th century ‘Children’ could marry, have sex, join the forces. We developed a myth of Childhood just as we developed a myth of The Family and we developed them at roughly the same time.

  182. theotherone 24 Sep 2009, 2:58pm

    #Some female to male transsexuals have described the effect on first taking testosterone, i.e. that it sharpened their mind made them more focused and aggressive.’

    as to sharper and more focused: I found this myself taking ‘female’ hormones and I think it’s more to do with ‘having a weight off your mind’ rather than the majic of Hormones

    Aggression? Perhaps: Testosterone has been linked in studies to aggression and risk taking in women but crucially the studies where based upon playing computer games and the increased aggression was saw upon playing the game again. This could be explained with the idea that they where used to the game and took more risks and where more aggressive as they where more confident with their abilities.

    It could also be put down to two other factors:

    1. a conscious taking upon oneself the behaviors and attitudes ascribed to the ‘other’ Gender.

    2. a psychosomatic version of the same.

  183. “It could also be put down to two other factors:

    1. a conscious taking upon oneself the behaviors and attitudes ascribed to the ‘other’ Gender.

    2. a psychosomatic version of the same.”

    . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

    I have been thinking about this and wanted to build on your idea addressed in point one.

    I was thinking, under the influence of estrogens or testosterone and the resulting changes towards a more masculine or feminine appearance; perhaps this does have the effect of allowing a person to feel more confident to adopt gender specific behaviours (no matter how stereotypical), rather than the gender specific behaviours emerging as a particular hormonal response

    I think the issues that you raise earlier about the neglect of specific scientific findings is fascinating, also what is more interesting is the need to cover over things . . . i.e. to protect or preserve which version of reality exactly, as if one version should have dominance over all the rest

  184. theotherone 25 Sep 2009, 12:18pm

    the best person to read on Science covering up dodgy findings in Charles Fort. His satirical Book Of The Damned shows how, in specific incidences, prominent 19th Century scientists ignored data and developed ridiculous findings to resolve potentially troubling Data Sets (his interest is in things like falls of strange objects from the skies, strange stellar phenomena and so on.) He offers a crash course of the layman (or woman) on this topic and he’s very, very funny.

    As to ‘feeling more confident’ – I think it’s partly that but people don’t wait until changes occur to modify their behaviors and/ or world views. I think it really is that they want to be a different person from they have been.

These comments are un-moderated and do not necessarily represent the views of PinkNews.co.uk. If you believe that a comment is inappropriate or libellous, please contact us.

Top commenters this week

Latest stories

See all