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Homophobic posters placed around Leicester ahead of Pride

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  1. Maybe we should go and poster the Danish cartoons Muslims hate so much around Leicester or have a float depicting them.

    Lets hope people leave religion at home and just enjoy the spirit of pride.

  2. Let’s be honest about which religious group it’s most likely to be. I think about a quarter of young muslims at least want Shariafascism and want gay people put to death.

  3. “”We believe it could be from an Islamic group, a religious group.” – Pete Bumpers, Leicestershire police’s hate crime officer

    Surprise, surprise.

    The only shock is that a police spokesman actually admitted they believe it’s an Islamic group instead of just saying “a religious group”.

    Homophobia in the muslim community is extremely bad, much worse than any other UK community in my opinion and much worse than most people – who don’t have experiences with the community – realise.

    Of course, every single muslim is not homophobic but a worringly high number are. Islamism remains the biggest threat to our gay rights in my opinion – and yet there are still some “politically correct” idiots in our community who prefer to bury their heads in the sand and avoid talking about it in case it’s “racist” to do so.

    Anyway, regardless of who carried out this (whether muslims, extreme Christians or just some random nutter) I am very pleased to see the police seem to be treating it seriously and have checked the posters for fingerprints. The comment “Capital punishment for gays” surely cannot be protected under religious freedom laws and I hope the culprit(s) if caught are prosecuted in court and not merely fined or given a caution.

    Anyway, hope everyone in Leciseter has a good pride :)

  4. Har Davids 4 Sep 2009, 2:51pm

    Any idiot with a computer and printer can whip up any number of stupid posters; it’s just like crank-calls, the call of the coward. Too bad they never have the guts or balls to show themselves.

  5. Thinking about it, it could also be the cranks from Christian voice they follow pride parades around the country.

  6. Anyway, DON’T martyrise the perpetrators…

    Don’t go over the top and prosecute them under any hate laws; that would be to accord these people the attention they seek and a modicum of GLORY…
    There is ‘fly/tipping/posting’ legislation.
    Maybe even that is too grand; just a littering offence should register sufficient contempt.

    Keith.

  7. Gay&Proud 4 Sep 2009, 3:53pm

    Behaviour like this reminds me why we still have to have Pride. Am looking forward to marching through the streets of my home city tomorrow with my friends and family holding my boyfriends hand while holding my head high. Proud? Just a bit :)

  8. Coemgenus 4 Sep 2009, 4:37pm

    Well, if god hates gays he’s a bit of a twat then, isn’t he?

  9. CommanderThor 4 Sep 2009, 4:49pm

    “God hates gays” says a lot more about god than it does about gays!

  10. 21stCenturySpirituality 4 Sep 2009, 5:03pm

    God does not join these people in their judgements. This is yet another sad reminder of the need to challenge and change people at the level of belief. I have spoken of this before in other threads. Our religions have perpetuated and seeded these prejudices and we must address this. We can no longer afford to shy away from or avoid constructive criticism and questioning of destructive religious beliefs. More and more voices are speaking out to challenge such religious notions of seperation theology and exclusivist philosophy but more people need to join them in
    opening dialogue, questioning them with reason and reasonableness, we need to be honest with ourselves about these beliefs and the harm they do. And we need to change them, we need to move away from them, we need to outgrow them, we need to support others to see that some of their religious beliefs simply do not work to create peace and harmony in the world and do nothing more than seperate and divide people, creating discord and disunity which is the opposite of God.

  11. Stewart Cowan 4 Sep 2009, 5:35pm

    The Almighty God (not Allah) does not hate gays. He hates sin.

  12. The perpetrators must be prosecuted for whatever laws they broke. There is not such thing as fascist martyrdom. It is just don’t allowing nazis get bold. Don’t give in, don’t hesitate, don’t fall into the false premise of “even who want’s to kill me must be free, cause I consider freedom to be a mystic sacred thing”.

  13. Well said Lexxvs. Sorry Keith but I disagree with you on this one – whoever is responsible needs to be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law possible to send a clear message otherwise this problem will only get worse.

    I remember seeing an old quote somewhere about UK appeasment to hardline Islamism, something like

    “When I am weak you give me freedom because that is your nature; when it is you who is weak I will take your freedom away because that is my nature”

  14. Well said Bentley. Keith – we need to stand up and show our teeth to these nutcases. I want them arrested and banged to rights, or worse; possibly a one way ticket to a country of their choice too. Don’t apologise for them on my behalf.

  15. Wouldn’t the world be a better place without religion? It seems people of all faiths are full of hate and intolerance. Or is it just that bigoted people hide behind religion to justify their hatred?

  16. john sharp 5 Sep 2009, 3:02am

    what if we put religious poeple to death
    they are fake an live on indoctrinated lies
    you can exterminate a religious beleif
    gays are real and spontanious
    exterminate us today
    we will always come back tomorow

  17. 21stCenturySpirituality 5 Sep 2009, 10:08am

    Re 11 – God does not ‘hate’ anything. Thats one belief I would challenge for starters. And as for sin, well it seems to me that that word has come to mean anything or anyone that christians dont like.
    Re 16 – If were going to start talking about genocide havent we had enough of that yet? And if we look to history do we see that such measures have worked to bring about peace and harmony in the world? No we do not – its already been tried, by Adolf Hitler and a few others, and it didnt work and wasnt deemed a very nice thing to do in an evolved society, thank goodness.
    And since I would be included by some in the category of ‘religious people’ I would be put into your death camp as well. So try to think of an answer to this issue that does not involve mass murder or harm to others John.

  18. 21stCenturySpirituality 5 Sep 2009, 10:28am

    Re 15, some very good questions – the kind of questions we should all be asking and thinking about. My immediate response would be yes and no to the first – there are some religious concepts and ideas that do work to bring about positive circumstances and conditions in the world and some that dont and never have – these are the ones the world would be better without, but then we could say that one who never made any mistakes never made anything – they never learned from what didnt work, so maybe in one sense we’ve needed to experience the stuff that doesnt work in order to understand what does work. I think were now at a point where it is overwhelmingly obvious what doesnt work in religion. I’d say no but I can understand where your coming from and why you would think that to the second, and yes they can to the third but its not neccessarily that people are hiding but that such religions actually perpetuate such beliefs.

  19. #13 BENTLEY and #14 ADRIAN T.

    Well, that is what is so great about this forum!
    We can all have our ideas and bandy them about.
    And do you know what?
    I heartily agree with both of yours, in one sense, “prosecute them to the fullest extent…” and…” …one way ticket…!

    Absolutely!
    Help them pack their bags, I say!
    See that they get on the plane, “no turning back now!”

    Facilitate their exit and ”good bleedin’ bye..!”

    (AdrianT, I wasn’t apologising? Sorry if I gave that impression)

    A little ridicule is a huge weapon; that is all I was getting at. And that would only be for starters.
    “Come back to this court and you will be dealt with ‘to the fullest extent’..”
    And what more of a put down, I thought in my post, than for the perpetrators to be dealt with by the lowest of magistrates’ court and handed a fine for mere littering/fly-posting.

    “Sorry, boys, your bid for notoriety/martyrdom/torchbearer-hood has just evapped; now go away and pay your £60 fixed penalty ticket..!”
    I doubt any local newspaper hack would even attend the hearing.

    A few more giggles and wolf-whistles at that fat, WWII slob, Goering, in his white tux. resplendent with his medal be-plastered chest?
    Well, you’d have ended up dead of course but his ego would have taken a hit.

    Same with these numpties.

    They are only out to make a name for themselves.
    Deny them the opp.

    But I quite understand and agree fully with what you say; mine is just the ‘tails’ to your ‘heads’.

    Keith.

  20. Suleman Nagdi MBE DL 5 Sep 2009, 1:05pm

    The FMO has been notified of a series of homophobic posters that have been
    displayed around Leicester, citing hatred against the gay community on religious
    grounds. A press release has been issued to the local media and the BBC by
    Suleman Nagdi MBE DL in response to these posters:

    “It must be said that there is a clear consensus among Islamic scholars about
    the Islamic injunction and its theological position on homosexuality which is
    well known to both Muslims and non Muslims. However, the issue which has been
    brought to our attention relates to possible discrimination and incitement
    against a section of our society which is completely unacceptable. The
    Federation of Muslim Organisations (FMO) and its wide network of member
    organisations have taken a strong position on this matter following calls from
    its concerned affiliates to address the issue as the poster campaign
    deliberately incites hatred. It appears that marginal groups are trying to stir
    up animosity between communities when we have spent years trying to enhance and
    sustain positive relationships between all communities. Islam stands for social
    justice, human dignity and peace. Especially, it must be reminded that during
    this holy month of Ramadan, we Muslims are strongly invited by our faith to
    reflect and take responsible course of actions in both our personal and
    community lives. Hence, the poster campaign in no way reflects the spirit of
    this spiritual season neither the heart of Islam itself”.

  21. Thankyou for this condemnation, Suleman.

    We need more action from within the muslim community to make it absolutely clear this anti-gay hatred/targetting is not acceptable – your statement is a welcome step in the right direction.

    I do NOT expect Islamic groups to join us on gay pride…but I expect them not to tolerate physical or verbal attacks on gay people and completely disassociate from anyone in the community who does so. It is in the muslim community’s interest to do so too, otherwise they will find themselves being treated with suspicion (at the least) by yet another part of society (LGBT people and their families/friends/supporters). We need to work together.

    So…thanks for your statement.

  22. Stewart Cowan 5 Sep 2009, 3:45pm

    21stCenturySpirituality – God indeed hates sin, because it’s what separates us from him.

    Richard – “Wouldn’t the world be a better place without religion?”

    The Soviets tried it. The Communist Chinese are more or less doing it today.

    Maybe you’d rather live in one of these societies, but I wouldn’t.

    Of course, Hitler hated Jews and J. Witnesses – and also homosexuals.

    So, yeah, why not try and ban religion. See what you end up with.

  23. Stewart Hitler was a Catholic, raised as a Catholic, indoctrinated with Catholic ideals, which at that time included hatred of gays and Jews.

    Not a lot changes with the Vatican does it?!

  24. Stewart Cowan 5 Sep 2009, 4:13pm

    Oh, Jackie. Are you saying Hitler was a good Catholic boy? Must try harder.

    It is also important that people stop using religion as a scapegoat. The truth is that almost every culture holds homosexual behaviour as unhealthy, unnatural and a danger to society. Religions just reflect the truth of this reality!

    So please, stop pretending it is religions who are “hateful”, when in fact it is human nature that tells a person that same-sex carnal encounters should be avoided.

  25. Yes, Hitler was brought up as a Catholic, and had an often friendly relationship with the Vatican.

    He and his pope even signed agreements. The Vatican have always liked their fascists. Another example – Franco.

  26. Stewart Cowan 5 Sep 2009, 4:30pm

    So, Jackie, what about the fact that human nature itself is responsible for making people respond to same-sex behaviour with horror?

  27. Irrelevant point Stewart. You were attempting to link Hitler with a non religious viewpoint.

    The facts show that is untrue.

    Your attempts to claim that Hitler wasn’t influenced at all by his Catholic upbringing and that his friendliness with the Vatican had absolutely no bearing whatsoever on his actions is just misleading.

    That was the only reason I responded to your misleading comment, and that is all I have to say to put right your attempts to mislead.

  28. Oh goodness me, the crackpot flagmaker from Stranraer returns.
    Actually it is well known that Adolf Hitler was a Catholic and referred to verses of the Gospel of St John, and St Paul’s letters to the Thessalonians to incite hatred against the Jews. Let’s face it, Christianity is responsible for 2000 years of anti-semitism; the Nazis just picked up where the Orthodox and Catholics left off. Wherever you look – human rights abuses, standard of living, crime, disease – religious countries come out worse off.

    Actually, it is undereducated people, and fundamentalist nutcases who react to same-sex affection with hatred: people who get an education, and learn build opinions based on evidence, are mostly far more tolerant, open minded and accepting. Religion plays a big part of course, in keeping people stupid. The place for religion is inside your head and inside your church – nowhere else.

  29. God needs to sue for libel. He never said he hates gays or anyone else. God hates hypocrisy.

  30. Stewart Cowan 5 Sep 2009, 11:15pm

    Exactly, Rose. Plus, if a nutter like Hitler uses religion to cause trouble then it’s hardly the Almighty’s fault. People have always used religion for their own ends.

    But, Jackie, why won’t you answer this question. I realise it’s very handy to blame ‘religion’. Will anyone answer this?:

    What about the fact that human nature itself is responsible for making people respond to same-sex behaviour with horror?

  31. Pumpkin Pie 5 Sep 2009, 11:25pm

    So, Jackie, what about the fact that human nature itself is responsible for making people respond to same-sex behaviour with horror?

    That’s called conditioning. People are programmed with the culture they grow up in. You do not have to be a clever person to realise this: even the slightest bit of knowledge of psychology or sociology will get you that answer. There have been many, many cultures in which homosexual relationships were viewed as either normal, or even in some way superior to heterosexual relationships (I believe the sentiment was “straight is for breeding, gay is for fun; straight is for duty, gay is for love”).

    My favourite example is of course Ancient Greece. The enlightened culture that kick-started Western philosophy, mathematics, literature and science found great beauty in same-sex relationships.

  32. Stewart Cowan 6 Sep 2009, 12:44am

    Okay, Pumpkin, you mention Ancient Greece. Wasn’t it mainly pederasty – youths having their first sexual encounter with an older man, while the men had wives. There wasn’t anything like ‘gay’ marriage, was there?

    So, Greece of 25 centuries ago and a bit in Rome. Any more examples?

  33. It isn’t ‘human nature’ to hate gay people. It is undereducated people, and fundamentalist nutcases who react to same-sex affection with ‘horror’ and hatred: people who get an education, and learn build opinions based on evidence, are mostly far more tolerant, open minded and accepting. Religion plays a big part of course, in keeping people stupid. The place for religion is inside your head and inside your church – nowhere else.

  34. Pumpkin Pie 6 Sep 2009, 3:33am

    Okay, Pumpkin, you mention Ancient Greece. Wasn’t it mainly pederasty – youths having their first sexual encounter with an older man, while the men had wives. There wasn’t anything like ‘gay’ marriage, was there?

    So, Greece of 25 centuries ago and a bit in Rome. Any more examples?

    Yup, that’s the one. Although I made an unfortunate generalisation there which you continued. I was specifically talking about Ancient Athens with my previous comment. As we all know, back then Greece was divided into many city-states, each with their own forms of government and culture. Homosexuality was celebrated in most of them, but still expressed in different ways.

    In Ancient Athens, the pederastic model of the young exchanging romance (physical or not) in exchange for the wisdom and tutelage of their elders was indeed the norm. In these cases, it didn’t really matter whether the tutor was married, as the relationships were regarded as being sufficiently different.

    Spartans had no time for homosexuality, of course. Spartan society was pretty much a living, breathing war machine. Everything had to be productive and efficient. Males lived in organised barracks from the ages of about 10-30, and even when they were old enough to be allowed to live with their wives and children, they were still prohibited from owning personal possessions and had to dine with their brothers-in-arms in the barracks. Women had a great deal more freedom, but were expected to be enthusiastic breeders – sometimes, when demand required it, with men who weren’t even their husbands! All in all, not a nice society.

    Thebes famously celebrated homosexuality in grand fashion. The Sacred Band of Thebes was an elite army made up of pairs of lovers which were grouped into camps of older and younger soldiers (unlike in Athens, the younger soldiers weren’t adolescents). Quite apart from the odd modern notion of same-sex attraction being a concern on the battlefield, the Sacred Band of Thebes counted on this attraction. The theory was that men fighting side-by-side with their lovers would fight fiercely to protect them and never abandon their comrades. And they were right. The Sacred Band served for many decades and was feared across Greece, defeating even a Spartan army three times its size (how’s that for love over-coming soulless efficiency?). It was regarded as near-invincible. Alas, all good things come to an end, and the Sacred Band met their end at the hands of Alexander the Great. Not that anybody would be ashamed at losing to such a man. A man who, by the way, wrote of his great admiration for these vanquished foes who fought fiercely and died where they fought – not one man surrendered or fled.

    My knowledge of other parts of the world at other times in existence is less clear, but I do know that Feudal Japan was rather fond of its homoeroticism, and that was a lot more recent than Ancient Greece. In fact, some commentators have reckoned that such relationships were socially acceptable right up until America’s post-WW2 occupation. Even today, same-sex experimentation is expected of ostensibly straight adolescent girls. I hear it’s seen as a sort of “safe” exploration of romantic relationships before they’re ready for boys. As a matter of fact, there’s a few South East Asian countries which have this sort of attitude towards same-sex experimentation. I think South Korea might be one of them, but I could be mistaken.

    Yeah, I guess that’s enough of my amateur history lesson. Just some fun facts I thought some people might be interested in. I don’t give a crap if it interested you, Cowman.

    I already demolished your pathetic little loaded question with my first post.

    You claimed that homosexuality is fundamentally unsavoury to human sensibilities on subconscious level. Even ONE example of a society which embraced same-sex relationships would have destroyed such a ridiculous idea and made it clear that such revulsion and apprehension is a construct of social conditioning. I provided such an example and now you’re coming back to me with **** about gay marriage? What the hell does that have to do with anything? That has absolutely nothing to do with basic human instincts, which is what you were talking about. You confound me with your desperate barrel-scraping.

  35. It must be said religious hatemongering is mostly the reason for homophobia in society. When religious know-nothings set themselves up as leaders, slandering gay people, and whipping up hatred against them, of course it encourages people to hate gays. This hatred is caused by social engineering, not naturally part of human nature, and it needs to be extinguished.

    The violence against gays in places like Iraq and Jamaica, as well as the USA, is almost entirely driven by religion.

    In the UK, Christian propaganda machines like the Christian Institute ensure that homophobia bubbles away in evangelical communities, promoting the nonsense idea that homosexuality is a choice, usually by misinterpreting some comment from Spritzer, a psychologist back in 2001, and claiming that gay people will destroy civilisation. What these people seek is to have gay people locked up.

    We absolutely need pride marches, to remind these nutters that their views belong on the fringe of society, alongside the National Front and other crackpots.

    The cure for homophobia, like religion, is education and reason. When ignorant, sex starved, unloved social failures like Stewart Cowan come on here and seethe and wail about gay people being accepted in society, it is clear we are winning the battle, and society is growing up.

  36. That Bible-bashing nutter was giving forth yesterday, Saturday, Sept.5, in Manchester’s St. Ann’s Sq….the loo-loo that was the subject of a thread on here, a few weeks back.

    Joe and Flo Public hurried by, averting eyes and just generally carried on with their Saturday, paying not a blind bit of notice to this mad, ranting, and I mean RANTING, nutter who was droning on and ONNNN – big, (bloody big), Bible in hand – about..”men laying with men as with a woman…”
    Boy! Has HE got a problem!

    Not far away was a one-man band, a comically dressed character who looked like a refugee from the Proms, evening suited, huge guts pinging the buttons off his shirt, in their (the guts’ ) attempt at spilling out of his trousers, held up with proudly displayed, crimson braces; hair, a la crazed conductor, and playing, very beautifully, “Schindler’s List” on his violin and then Max Bruch’s, ‘Kol Nidrei’.
    He was absolutley mobbed with folks all listening, quietly, smiling and chucking change into his violin case.

    And there’s the contrast.

    Make people smile and they ….I need not go on, need I..!
    Ram whatever down their throats, harangue and bully…and…there you go…

    As I said at # 6.

    If we can ignore these nutters and give people something to smile at, join in with, laugh at even, then the nutters will not win.
    People keep their heads down in the rain and gales and press on with their business; only the sun wreathes faces in smiles and lets people stay a while.

    These nutters talk to themselves; they are their own audience.

    So let them put up their silly notices; laugh at them; hand them the equivalent of a parking fine.

    They will continue to do so whether or not, whether they are treated dismissively now, or more harshly now, because basically they are not guilty of anything very much; what they have done is gross intolerance but it is hardly a hanging offence.
    All ” the full force of the law ” will do is publicise their bile.
    For now, give ‘em a bit of the law, not the ”full force”….but watch them.

    When they come back, as they surely will, with a graver crime, which they will perpetrate anyway, whether you ”full force” them now or not, that will be the time to make sure that they are then taken off the streets for a VERY long time.
    Any paltry fine they might incur now should serve as a shot across the prow, if they have ANY sense.

    It’s called ‘slowly, slowly, catchee monkey’ or ‘give enough rope….’

    Keith.

  37. I sometimes get fed-up when people shout “Homophobia!” for any humour being made about gay stereotypes.

    But I think the posters remind everybody why Homophobia is a battle to be fought and why Pride is still relevant. The people who are now on our side are largely the people who were never against us.

    It’s as clear as day: there are people who don’t even know us, who want us killed for our sexuality… not as a passive thought but so actively that they would devote their time to campaign for it, in this way.

    Don’t minimise it by saying “This is just a crackpot”, “just radical Islamists”, “just fundamental Christians”. We have seen religious groups (of the kind that have a *lot* of support in the most *powerful* countries) marching with placards shouting “God Hates Fags!”.

    Make no mistake, genuine homophobia is alive and well in this country. If your reaction is just to prosecute for flyposting in contempt of childish behaviour, I think you’re *really* missing the point.g

  38. TSUCHAN….37.

    Prosecute for ‘flyposting’…, yes, for NOW.
    After all what else can you really do?
    And yes, I do realise that the comments on their posters are abusive, but what will the courts hand down for that?

    Not a lot, I wouldn’t think.

    The ‘fly-posting’ prosecution is a sprat, a warning, a slap…for NOW….only.

    Whack them with the big one, off the streets for a very long time, when their arrogant self-righteousness leads them, as it will, into very serious crime…
    After all, they “have God on their side”…they think.
    That gives them carte blanche, as any self-respecting fascist, will tell you and they won’t stop at a few poxy posters.

    And yes, I do know – and from painful exp. – that h’phobia is alive and kicking, literally, not only here but right around the globe.

    Anyway, that’s my idea; yours is just as valid.
    Keith.

  39. Keith…

    (I know we’re on the same side, btw) (^_-)

    For me, the important thing isn’t the legal remedy, it’s acknowledging the gravity of a person or group being so exercised against gay people, they will go out in the dead of night to ferment this kind of hatred.

    If people are willing to go as far as this, there’s the real concern that they’ll be willing to escalate to physical attacks or murder (or that they’ve already done so).

  40. This sounds possibly like the work of a Joel’s Army type Christian extremist outfit, they seem to be active in the midlands, from you tube. Read any of Dogemperor’s articles on these groups.

  41. #39 Tsuchan, I take your point 100%.

    I agree with you totally…what kind of loo-loo bells do this at dead-of-night and in so “cowardly” a manner, as pointed out up top there…at #4 by HAR DAVIDS.

    I just do not want them martyrising for nothing; glorified for a few piddlin’ posters.

    Anyway, we could go on.

    Better let someone else ‘Have-a-go-Joe’.. espesh since we are both singing the same hymn.
    K.

  42. Stewart Cowan 6 Sep 2009, 11:42pm

    Pumpkin Pie – thanks for the history lesson, but not a lot to suggest that acceptance of homosexuality is widespread.

    Adrian T – thanks for the insults. What do you think about Peter Tatchell describing being homosexual as “a choice, and we should be glad it’s that way and celebrate it for ourselves”?

    What about the equal rights for ex-gays?

  43. What about rights for the huge number of ex-gay survivors to sue religious rip-off artists like NARTH and Exodus, who deceived people into thinking they could change, when in fact, they could not?

  44. It might have been a religious group, or Islamists or BNP? well wot a suprise!!! Here we go again!!!

  45. Stewart Cowan 7 Sep 2009, 12:08pm

    Seems they have, Adrian. They even have their own ‘rights’ agenda now. Watch out Stonewall, the truths-a-coming!

  46. Celibate people are absolutely welcome to their rights – so long as they don’t conflict with anyone else’s.

    Like everything on your blog, you completely distort the facts. (Of course, what else would we expect from an ignoramus who pretends Evolution didn’t happen, and that the Universe is about 6,000 years old?)

    You made a big deal about a judgement which said nothing more than: no-one should be judged on their sexual orientation. We can all agree on that.

    But PFOX wanted more: they wanted to ensure representation at a teachers’ union congress. Their booth was not allowed because the core of their message – demonising LGBTs – is not wanted. neither is their hate message wanted in classrooms. The judge agreed with the Teachers’ Union. So, no victory whatsoever.

    And the evidence for change? Near zero.

  47. Pumpkin Pie 7 Sep 2009, 3:06pm

    Pumpkin Pie – thanks for the history lesson, but not a lot to suggest that acceptance of homosexuality is widespread.

    That’s because it’s not, you moron. That’s kind of the whole point of the LGBT struggle for acceptance and equality, you know? I wasn’t out to prove that the whole world loves gays. I was out to rubbish your ridiculous claim that homophobia is somehow an innate condition.

    Adrian T – thanks for the insults. What do you think about Peter Tatchell describing being homosexual as “a choice, and we should be glad it’s that way and celebrate it for ourselves”?

    I know this wasn’t aimed at me, but just in case you’re taking Adrian’s ignoring of this tripe as some sort of quiet defeat – Tatchell is indeed a great man, but he’s not exactly a qualified psychologist/psychiatrist. He can believe what he wants, but this isn’t some sort of religious cult, we all have our own opinions.

    What about the equal rights for ex-gays?

    Purging yourself via vomiting actually works for a very small number of people seeking to lose weight. Should there be books written on “Purging Your Way To A Healthier You”? No, there shouldn’t. Quite apart from its low success rate, it has serious health risks. It should not be attempted or encouraged, even if it had a higher success rate. The same is true, in every sense, for “reparative therapy”.

    I have great sympathy for “ex-gays”. It must be tough living with that level of self-loathing. I regard non-asexual people who become celibate through their disgust with sexual acts with sympathy and understanding. I regard monosexuals who try to start families with people they could never be happy with with frustration and pity. And I regard people who proselytise these dangerous therapies, with the intention of getting others to join them, with utter contempt.

    As an addendum, I’d just like to point out how pitifully inadequate reparative/conversion therapy is when you take bisexuality into consideration. The results are bad enough when you think of these people as being gay, but when you factor in the fact that some of them genuinely are attracted to women, that success rate is pretty damn low. I guess that’s just what happens when you expose yourself to such deprivation.

  48. shaunagus 7 Sep 2009, 4:26pm

    I love pumpkin pie!!! you are my hero….

    why dont we just ignore stuart – hes not gonna change our mind, we’re not gonna change his. just let him froth…hed probably stop after one post if we didnt argue with him.

    And the spiritual or relgious amongst him can count him in our prayers, that he carry the message of love that Jesus carried, not the message of hate that he carries in his heart. It must hurt, Stuart, let it go….let god in and let the hatred go. I’ll pray for you.

    xx

  49. The simple answer to Cowan is: conenting adult relationships are not, nor will they be, any of your business. Try to make it your business, and we shall have to interfere in your affairs.

    That’s all there is to be said. You cannot argue with a crackpot.

  50. Stewart Cowan 7 Sep 2009, 6:11pm

    Pumpkin Pie – I stopped reading after ‘moron’.

    Adrian – What I find is that I can’t get through to someone who is proud. If you learn to humble yourself, you’ll learn more and appreciate more.

    Threaten me if you want. I am no doubt reaching some people who have homosexual desire who are thinking about the truth I bring that they don’t have to stay that way. Others have changed and they can too. You can too.

    Your name-calling and threats mean nothing to me. Out of love I will reach those who want to change and find true happiness and purpose in life.

    If I wasn’t acting out of love then I just wouldn’t bother putting up with the attacks.

  51. What you don’t seem to understand is, we don’t want religious busybodies interfering in our business, that is the bottom line. Yet, this message never seems to get through to you. And what on earth gives you the right or qualification to be anyone’s teacher?

    The problem with people like yourselves and the others who scream away to nobody on street corners, is this: it’s bad enough that you claim to know of a god, and then to claim to know intimately his mind on who we should sleep with, what we should drink, what we should do on sundays and so on. You go on to claim to know what God’s ‘true purpose’ is for everyone else.

    How do you, a screen printer in Stranraer, know this information, Stewart? I don’t think you have the cranial capacity to know this information. Until you give me a coherent answer, instead of white noise, then you are out of the argument. It;s as simple as that.

    It really sounds like you are the one that needs to come down to earth. The good news is, the Road to Damascus is a two-way street, and you can walk away from all this superstitious nonsense, any time you like. I can recommend a whole series of excellent books by the likes of Matt ridley, richard dawkins, jared diamond, steven pinker, carl sagan in the Popular Science section of your local Waterstones, to help.

    I know you have invested a lot of time, energy and possibly money, in all these beliefs. Doesn’t make them true though.

    Big kiss, xxx A

  52. Pumpkin Pie 7 Sep 2009, 8:44pm

    Shaunagus: Hee-hee, thanks! I wish some system existed to de-program nutjobs like Cowman. They wouldn’t even have to give up religion, just their bigotry. They could find true happiness!

    Cowman: Hahaha! That essentially translates to “you win”, doesn’t it? Ah, that’s what I was waiting for. It doesn’t matter if you’re ignoring me, Adrian is doing a bang-up job of kicking your ass by himself. Anybody here thinking about becoming straight thanks to Cowman’s divine intervention? …Anybody?

  53. Is anyone watching Channel 4 right now, incidentally? And did anyone see the programme last night about the final phone calls from people trapped in the World Trade Center?

    I wonder how many pleas for divine internvetion were made in the choking smoke and flames.

    After all these unanswered prayers, if I were god, listening to people, expecting me to facilitate some miraculous change in sexual preference – I would spit at such prayers.

  54. In the words of those great philosophers, the Dead Kennedys, ‘All religion Suxx…’

  55. The Dead Kennedys!! :-) Now you’re showing your age, too….

  56. Sister Mary Clarence 8 Sep 2009, 12:30pm

    “So, Jackie, what about the fact that human nature itself is responsible for making people respond to same-sex behaviour with horror?”

    Were the hell did that come from?

    People responding to same sex ‘behaviour’ with horror is entirely nurture and nothing whatsoever to do with nature.

    When allowed to be by the parents/carers, children are inquisitive about homosexuality with no preconceived ideas. Society teaches them to be judgemental, it is certainly not in born.

    It has clearly taught you Stewart to rally against homosexuality. It was something you were taught, not something you were born with. It is always difficult to learn in later life that something you have always believed in, often taught by people you love and respect, turns out to be a complete load of tosh. It takes a very big person to stand up and admit that they were wrong.

    The internet is full of tails of the difficulties in straightening out kids that have escaped the clutches of cults where they have been indoctrinated into believing all sorts of crap. I think part of the key to success is actually wanting to do it and being able to open your mind to the possibility that what you have been taught is the view of the people that taught you very often. It may not the ONLY view and it may not be the RIGHT view.

  57. Stewart Cowan 8 Sep 2009, 9:46pm

    Adrian – I’m not surprised you don’t want “religious busybodies” interfering in your business. When I was a drunkard I didn’t want people telling me not to drink. It is ridiculous to propose that people cannot change their behaviour.

    “Yet, this message never seems to get through to you. And what on earth gives you the right or qualification to be anyone’s teacher?”

    Adrian, it never will get through to me, as long as I care about the eternal welfare of souls first and foremost.

    “You go on to claim to know what God’s ‘true purpose’ is for everyone else.”

    His will is for us to repent of our sins and believe in His Son and so be redeemed; to avoid a terrible sentence on the Day of Judgment – a sentence we will have deserved and must pay unless we have been cleansed by the blood of Christ.

    “How do you, a screen printer in Stranraer, know this information, Stewart? I don’t think you have the cranial capacity to know this information. Until you give me a coherent answer, instead of white noise, then you are out of the argument. It;s as simple as that.”

    It’s not about cranial capacity, although I am a pretty smart cookie too. The grace of the Almighty to save sinners is there for one and all to reach out for, regardless.

    “It really sounds like you are the one that needs to come down to earth. The good news is, the Road to Damascus is a two-way street, and you can walk away from all this superstitious nonsense, any time you like.”

    That’s true. You can be happy in this life building your treasure in Heaven and receive a pardon for your sins on Judgment Day, or you can present yourself defiled before the Almighty God and receive just recompense.

    “I can recommend a whole series of excellent books by the likes of Matt ridley, richard dawkins, jared diamond, steven pinker, carl sagan in the Popular Science section of your local Waterstones, to help.”

    We don’t have a Waterstones in this backwater, but I’ve started reading Dawkins. It’s a mystery to me how anyone can take him seriously. You might be interested in my Richard Dawkins Exposed series on my blog.

    “I know you have invested a lot of time, energy and possibly money, in all these beliefs. Doesn’t make them true though.”

    Lots of time. Some money. Actually, lots of money when you consider that I run my own business and I could put in a lot of extra hours every week if I didn’t care about the unspeakable consequences of sin.

    “Big kiss, xxx A”

    [Dodges kiss and offers hand to shake]

  58. “When I was a drunkard I didn’t want people telling me not to drink. It is ridiculous to propose that people cannot change their behaviour.”

    This is irrelevant, but actually, the fact you were a social failure, ruining your health, incapable of a relationship, causing havoc for others around you, makes you totally unqualified to intervene in anyone’s affairs. Instead of facing up to the mess you caused and taking responsibility, you have opted for a religious whitewash.

    The drunk analogy fits you perfectly well. Now, you are drunk on religion – and judging by the crazed, obsessive, nonsensical babble on your blogs – once again, your drunkenness is the point where your interfering behaviour is becoming a nuisance to others, just like when alcohol seized your brain.

    What is your qualification to talk about other people’s relationships, the things in life that other people hold most sacred, when as a single man in your 40s, you have no concept of relationships yourself?

    If you want it for yourself, fine, but keep your nonsense to yourself. I don’t want to be told that I have to obey these laws too, or that laws have to be written to gratify the bizarre beliefs of your ridiculous cult. We will not put up with this, and people like you are the reason why we need to keep faith out of the public sphere.

    To repeat, what happens in other people’s bedrooms certainly does not concern you.

    “His will is for us to repent of our sins and believe in His Son and so be redeemed; to avoid a terrible sentence on the Day of Judgment – a sentence we will have deserved and must pay unless we have been cleansed by the blood of Christ.”

    One of the few useful teachings of the supposed Jesus of Nazareth was to warn his followers, reported in Matthew 5:11, to expect mockery, ridicule, or worse, because of their beliefs. Your threats to civilisation and freedom show why that is necessary. The very consideration of your proposals is a massive insult to the dignity of many people, who mean you no harm.

    I asked you, how you know this information, and you give me more white noise and babbling nonsense. To repeat, how do you know this information?

    “It never will get through to me, as long as I care about the eternal welfare of souls first and foremost.”
    Exactly the kind of fanatical thinking that drives suicide bombers to blow up transatlantic airliners.

    “You can…receive a pardon for your sins on Judgment Day, or you can present yourself defiled before the Almighty God and receive just recompense.”

    I am not owned, and I don’t acknowledge the right of anyone to judge me. By what right does anyone do this? I don’t care for ‘almighty god’’s pardon. It’s a shame there isn’t a hell for him to go to.

    “Lots of time. Some money. Actually, lots of money when you consider that I run my own business and I could put in a lot of extra hours every week if I didn’t care about the unspeakable consequences of sin.”

    Throwing money down the sink doesn’t make something true, or more reasonable, as the Christian Legal Centre often discovers. You still haven’t a clue what you are talking about, and thankfully, people aren’t that stupid, especially when you insult the child victims in Doncaster by linking their torture to accepting gay families. It’s to them you should apologise, even more than us.
    There you are, seething and raging, about other people’s loves and pleasures. Just like the 9/11 suicide bombers. If there could be any doubt that fanatical Christianity has the potential to be as murderous and oppressive as fanatical Islam, you demolish it. (Thank you for that by the way).

  59. “The truth is that almost every culture holds homosexual behaviour as unhealthy, unnatural and a danger to society.”

    I love this kind of nonsense. Lacking an understanding of history and world culture, and I’m not even goin to bother to show how wrong this silly statement it.

    The only thing unhealthy to a society, Stewart, is prejudice. It is the cause of wars, and it brings humans to the level of monkeys with sticks.

    On an individual level, your fixation on all things gay in such a histrionic way, is rather unhealthy, don;t you think?

  60. “Out of love I will reach those who want to change and find true happiness and purpose in life.”

    Oh, and I simply love this!

    What a joke. Well sure, Stewart, I’ll go to you to be “cured”…. right after I go ask the tooth fairy for advice on dental hygiene.

    What you are Stewart, is a coward who couldn’t face up to what you really are, and protest all you like, denial is not a “cure”. We’re just stronger in character than you and your spineless brethren, that’s the simple reality of your so called “ex-gay “movement”…. if 5 losers who can’t deal with their sexuality constitutes a movement these days….

    Why do these “ex-gays” become so fixated with homosexuality if they are “cured”? It would be like me catching a flu, and then when I’m over it, spending the rest of my life obsessing over it.

  61. The APA studied ex-gay therapy and found it to be a complete failure, and potentaially harmful. No matter about this, or the fact that the vast majority of gay people lead perfectly healthy and productive lives, and the overwhelming evidence that single sex parents provide stable homes for children: Mr Cowan thinks evidence doesn’t matter. In his own words, “It never will get through to me..” – he is impervious to reason.

    “Some People Are Gay. Get Over It!” -PS have you seen his ludicrous post on this. According to Mr Cowan, it is ‘Orwellian’ to prevent LGBT kids from being bullied and intimidated by nutcases like him. Poor Stewart, discriminated against and ostracised for merely calling for the recriminalisation of homosexuality.

  62. “According to Mr Cowan, it is ‘Orwellian’ to prevent LGBT kids from being bullied and intimidated by nutcases like him. Poor Stewart, discriminated against and ostracised for merely calling for the recriminalisation of homosexuality.”

    Yeah, agreed Adrian…. imagine that being the sum total of your short life on this planet, persecuting people and encouraging persecution. What an achievement.

    Personally, I would be appalled with myself.

    Its proof that some people are more evolved than others…. some, like our enlightened Mr. Cowen, are still behave with no more intelligence than a monkey trying to gain its position in its society by beating the crap out of others.

  63. Will – this is the core of the problem

    “I am no doubt reaching some people… who are thinking about the [TRUTH] I bring that they don’t have to stay that way.”

    I’m mainly concerned with the route that person has taken to get to the truth. Evidence, reason, logic, honesty, objectivity? When you ask a person like this, how he knows something is true, it is like a computer malfunctioning. He has no idea how to answer, other than to spew more babble about judgement day. The question cannot be asked enough.

    I have no idea if he is ex-gay; he is certainly ex-alcoholoc, yet despite the fact it was alcohol specifically that ruined his previous existence, nowhere do I see his call for prohibition.

  64. 21stCenturySpirituality 9 Sep 2009, 11:42pm

    Stewart Cowan your not coming from love, your coming from fear. You havent heard a single word Ive said have you (10,17,18)? Well Ive certainly got my work cut out with beliefs like yours to contend with Mr Cowan. Maybe you’d be happier shacked up with the Mayor of Doncaster and his praise for ‘Taliban Family Values’. In the mean time Mr Cowan may I refer you to some videos I have placed in the archives of this site. Simply click on the pink box above marked videos and amongst them you will find a series of videos named ‘Tough Questions For Christians’ of which there are 36. Other videos I have placed on this site that are of relevance to critisizing what you are saying here include ‘Sam Harris at Idea City ’05’, ‘God in the 21st Century: Bishop John Shelby Spong at UO’, and ‘ Truth about Religion, Parts 1,2, and 3′. Come back when you’ve watched those and we’ll have a little chat about them shall we? See you soon.

  65. 21stCenturySpirituality 10 Sep 2009, 12:24am

    Also, Stewart, the following books are relevant to the discussion at hand:

    What The Bible Really Says About Homosexuality – Daniel A Helmimiak PhD

    Exchanging The Truth Of God For A Lie: One Man’s Spiritual Journey To Find The Truth About Homosexuality And Same-Sex Partnerships – Jeremy Marks

    Anything But Straight: Unmasking the Scandals and Lies Behind the Ex-gay Myth – Wayne R. Besen

    The Church And The Homosexual – John J McNeill SJ

    The Marriage Of Likeness: Same Sex Unions In Pre-Modern Europe – John Boswell

    From Queer To Eternity: Spirituality In The Lives Of Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual & Transgendered People – Peter Sweasey

    50 Facts That Should Change The World – Jessica Williams

    Letter To A Christian Nation – Sam Harris

    The Journey Guide: A Course In Mind Expansion

    Pagans & Christians: The Personal Spiritual Experience – Gus Dizerega Phd

    What The Bible Really Teaches: A Challenge To Fundamentalists – Keith Ward

    Rescuing The Bible From Fundamentalism – John Shelby Spong

    Why Christianity Must Change Or Die – John Shelby Spong

    Christian Perspectives On Sexuality & Gender – Adrian Thatcher & Elizabeth Stuart

    Churches That Abuse – Ronald M Enroth

    Twisted Scriptures: Breaking Free From Churches That Abuse – Mary Alice Chrnalogar

    Charismania: When Christian Fundamentalism Goes Wrong – Roland Howard

    Also the following film/DVD which can also be viewed in nine parts on youtube:

    The Bible Told Me So

  66. 21stCenturySpirituality 10 Sep 2009, 12:37am

    Also, Stewart, you’ll find the websites of the following organisations helpful. We cant put web addresses in these boxes so you’ll have to figure it out for yourself but check out the websites for:

    Accepting Evangelicals

    Changing Attitude

    Soulforce

    ReligiousTolerance

  67. 21stCenturySpirituality 10 Sep 2009, 9:10am

    Oh and also Stewart I remembered another book when I woke up this morning which has significant relevance to where your coming from and what your saying here and that is:

    Brainwashing: The Science Of Thought Control by Kathleen Taylor

    So, anyway then Stewart, when you’ve watched all the videos, read all the books and visited and explored those websites I mentioned then we will continue this discussion. Im not expecting to hear from you until then for at least 6 months, ok. I challenge you to seriously engage in this process and then come back and still 100% believe what you are saying now. If you can do that I will convert back to being a born again Christian.

  68. 21stCenturySpirituality 10 Sep 2009, 11:39am

    Ive spotted a flaw in comment 64. In order to click on the pink box marked videos you will also need to register on this site and be signed in.

  69. Pumpkin Pie 10 Sep 2009, 2:32pm

    Yeah, that’s a point: why does Cowman insist on arguing these things with us, rather than people on a pro-acceptance Christian site? I’d imagine it’s because he wants to deal with strawmen. We’re alien enough for him to dismiss us casually, but dealing with other Christians who have different beliefs to him would probably hit a little too close to home.

  70. Eagle Ashcroft 10 Sep 2009, 7:20pm

    Wished I was in England so I could leave a few posters of my own: “God hates religious fanatics!” and “Religious fruitcakes are going to Hell!” “Mohammed and Jesus were secret lovers!” “Mohammed likes it up the butt!” “Jesus was a closet queen!”, and than post them near mosques and churches. That would fix the bastards.

  71. Jean-Paul Bentham 11 Sep 2009, 4:40am

    Wow, if I had AdrianT, Will, Pumpkin Pie, 21stCenturySpirituality, Keith, sister Mary Clarence and Eagle talking to me, I would be the one to humble myself and listen to the truth.

    Forward Gay Soldiers, any manifestation of homophobia needs to be crushed. Babies are not born with homophobia. We all know that.

  72. Ehh..JEAN PAUL?
    Moi….?

    I have died and gone to that big gay club in the sky…everlasting THREE DEGREES…KC AND THE SUNSHINE BAND..CHICAGO…SINITTA………….just a minute an angel is brushing past….wants to change the track…

    Does that moosak date me…?

    You betcha…!
    Ha.
    K
    x

  73. EAGLE ASHCROFT…!
    WOW..!
    HA!
    MY KIND OF GUY….HAHAHA.!
    STOP IT!
    YOU HAVE RUINED MY BLUSHER!!

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