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Equality Commission takes BNP to court over “racist” membership policy

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  1. This court case will only act a a recruitment Sargent for the BNP. They will be claiming a conspiracy against them again.

  2. So why has the Commission fail to act against those dancehall artist who have been allowed to perform here in the UK – I have never read anything from them denouncing these artist. There are many groups and companies out there who discriminate against the LGBT community why have the Commission not taken them to court. Why has the Commission not upheld and supported the LGBT community against those registrars who have refused to carry out civil partnerships?

    This action by the Commission will only help the BNP

  3. “The BNP, who are homophobic as well as racist,”
    So I take it this is an anti BNP website, to biased for me, I want the facts.

  4. Sean Britania 24 Aug 2009, 5:58pm

    One of my friends is in the BNP and he is gay, he joined when he was set on by a gang of muslims from off his own street.

    I don’t see why gay people should have lies told to them.

  5. Ah the BNP turn up I though you would

  6. @Sean Britania

    What lies? The BNP staunchly oppose gay rights and make no secret of this position.

    Nick Griffin has made his opinion on homosexuality abundantly and repeatedly clear.

    On gays protesting the Admiral Duncan pub bombing:

    “[homosexuals] flaunting their perversion in front of the world’s journalists, showed just why so many ordinary people find these creatures disgusting”

    On civil partnerships:

    “Not only would we not allow Elton John to marry his boyfriend but our proposals for a strengthened Clause 28 would prevent such a sick parody of real marriage being shown on TV in any case””

    To Pink News:

    “Some unfortunate people suffer from homosexuality so we will just have to tolerate them.

    If I was one I would be ashamed and would remain celibate”

  7. I’d rather take my chances with the BNP in charge than continuing with the extremely worryingly rise in Islamofascism in political circles/local authorities/media. BNP may want us to “keep our private life behind closed doors”, but I’ve lost count of the number of Islamic preachers etc saying that death should be the punishment for homosexuality. And they hide behind “freedom of religion” or “it’s our culture” to avoid prosecution for hate speech.

    And like another poster, I have a gay friend who has actually joined the BNP after experiencing homophobic abuse from muslim youths. Local BNP members apparently told him they did not officially “approve” of “full” gay equality but they believed he had the right to live his life the way he wanted in freedom and have been friendly to him. I’m unware of such acceptance of openly gay members in muslim groups.

    I also wonder if action will be taken against the Black Police Officers Association or Muslim Police Officers Association, which surely cater for just one ethnic group? Thought not.

    All this will do is drive more people into the arms of the BNP. I’m not a supporter of them but I can fully understand the frustration felt by many working class people, that has caused the BNP’s popularity to increase (i.e. being branded “racist” for expressing concern at the ridiculous levels of immigration, forced “multiculturalism” with resulting non-integration, political correctness that favours minorities over the indigenous white population etc).

  8. @Bentley

    Those preachers and the BNP represent two sides of the same bigoted coin.

    Most Muslim MPs have very good voting records on gay rights. I would sooner vote for a Sadiq Khan or a Khalid Mahmood; people actually support equality for gays than a party who by their own admission say they’ll abolish the legal recognition and rights given to gay couples and bring back Section 28.

  9. How naive if you think Labour MPs (or any party for that matter) vote a certain way due to their conscience and beliefs. The party whips place enormous pressure on them to follow the “party line”.

    But yes you’re right that not all muslims are homophobic – just like not all BNP members are homophobic.

    And yes, homophobia in the far-right is a cause for concern, but Islamism, in my opinion, is a bigger threat to gay rights in the UK than *anything* else.

    P.S. The main area for gay people getting attacked in 2008-09 appears to be in certain parts of East London by asian thugs (see several articles on pinknews). I know someone who was verbally abused in this area and was told “gays are killed in Islam”. One young guy was stabbed and paralysed. Frightening. But some people prefer to bury their heads in the sand I guess.

  10. I meant to say I’m mentioning the East London story because I’m not aware of any other series of repeated, organised attacks on gay people. I haven’t heard of BNP skinheads committing a similar wave of attacks, for example.

  11. If you expect gay equality, you should share that equality with other societal minority groups. Otherwise it stinks of hypocrisy, and to be fair Bentley, your comments reek of it.

  12. @ Bentley – on a point of information, the Black Police Officers Association is open to police officers of any ethnicity. Unlike the BNP, it does not discriminate.

  13. @ glitzfrau

    Yes it does, actually. Whites can only be associate members, that is half members with no voting rights. And it only crammed that caveat in thier recently.

    I cannot stand the hypocrisy of dressing this up as an equality action when it is clearly a politically motivated one.

    If this action by the EHRC is really fair and non-political when we will see them action taken against all of these groups:

    The Black Police association
    Black people’s mental health association
    Black and Asian therapists online
    National BME mental health network
    Federation of Black housing organizations
    The Black Londoners forum
    Positive action in Housing
    Asianfaces.co.uk,Asian modelling service
    Society of Black lawyers,London
    Society of Asian lawyers,London
    BlackLawyersDirectory.com
    asianjobsite.co.uk
    BlackandAsiangrad.ac.uk
    Ethnic media Group
    Al-Nisa Muslim Women’s Group
    Al-Nur Muslim Women’s Association
    Antrim Chinese Community Association
    Barnardos Chinese Lay Health Project
    Chinese Welfare Association
    The Windsor Fellowship
    Sponsors for Educational opportunity,(SEO)London
    BlackBritain.co.uk
    EthnicBritain.co.uk
    emjobsite.co.uk
    Link Net Mentoring
    Suga fix media arts
    Sussex Black police Association
    The National Black Writers and Artist Association
    Black students Association
    UK Black teachers Association
    Black UK online
    Ashiana Housing Association Ltd.
    UK Asian business directory
    Asian People’s Disability alliance
    Asian arts agency
    Black Enterprise awards
    BlackEngineer.com
    AIM magazine
    Natwest Bank (Asian Entrepreneurs Unit)
    Asian Voice
    Black womens rape action Project,BWRAP,London
    The Drum,African,asian arts venue,Birmingham
    Black training and enterprise group
    UK Black Pride
    Ethnic Minority Foundation,London
    Oshwal Elderly Welfare Association,Surrey
    Ethnic Minority and Black Regional Action for Community Empowerment (EMBRACE),Birmingham
    MENTER,Regional network for Black / Minority Ethnic (BME) voluntary organisations
    Black and Minority Ethnic Elders Group,Scotland
    Latin American elderly project,London
    Latin American golden years day centre
    Naz project London,Sexual health & AIDS prevention(NPL)
    The Black Fundraisers Network,London
    Black Arts Alliance,Manchester
    Southall Black sisters,Middlesex
    Black student union
    Dudley Black regeneration council
    Black Professional events,events planners
    Black Health Agency,Manchester
    National Association for the advancement of Black people,
    African Caribbean Development agency (ACDA)
    African caribbean education and training services (ACETS)
    Amaani Tallawah mental health support services,Nottingham
    APNA arts,Nottingham
    Asian day centre,Nottingham
    Broxtowe African Caribbean Elders group
    BUILD Nottingham Mentor project
    Calabash supplementory school
    Afrik-African International Network,Nottingham
    Asian mens group
    Somerset Black development agency (SBDA)
    Black families education support group,Bath & somerset

  14. But non of them are political parties are they kimm the BNP are. So the must adhere to the rules and that includes no discrimination.

    The BNP are no longer a club or group your choice. If you had one ounce of intelligence in the party you would of worked that out.

    Now which id will the BNP use to reply?

  15. @ Abi1975

    You seem to be typical of the tyrannical and polemical mindset that prevails under nulabour, as well as great example of the ignorant product of its education system.

    Firstly, I am not a member of the BNP, nor a supporter and I have only posted under my real first name. Good grief.

    Secondly, ostensibly the BNP are not being taken to court because they are a political party but purely because the EHRC deems them to be in breach of the RRA in its membership criteria.

    That act applies to every organisation in this country with only valid s26 (s25) exemptions; the EHRC are not contending that S26 (s25) do not apply to the BNP per se but that their definition of their exemption is not valid (they are in effect arguing that there is no such ethnic group as the English, the Welsh, the Scottish and the Irish) and consequently, if this really were the case, then every single organisation I listed would certainly fall foul of the RRA in this context, and if, as the EHRC claim, they are statutorily bound to take legal action for court decision on cases that may breach the RRA, then every the EHRC would have to take action against all of the organisation I have listed.

    If you had even one ounce of intelligence you would of worked that out.

  16. @Brently

    “How naive if you think Labour MPs (or any party for that matter) vote a certain way due to their conscience and beliefs. The party whips place enormous pressure on them to follow the “party line”.”

    No, votes on gay rights legislation are often defined as just that: issues of conscience; and are usually allowed as free votes.

    There was no whip on the Human Embryology and Fertilisation Act yet Sarwar, Malik and Khan still came down on the pro-gay side and supported the right of lesbians to receive IVF.

  17. I think the EHRC are trying to specifically target the BNP on a loophole, whilst trying not to net supposedly “genuine” associations using the same pretext for allowing/disallowing members.

    The bottom line, if Get a bunch of mates together and you want to join, but we dont like you, we can say no. For whatever reason. Where a “bunch” becomes a “club” becomes “an association”, I don’t know. All it seems to me is they are trying to sue “Any British Political Party whose name begins with ‘B’ and ends with ‘P’ and has an ‘N’ in the middle”. ”

    Oh, what a surprise, that only leaves one our list.”

  18. BNP or Islam? I don’t want either of them thanks. At least the BNP are honest about their homophobia though, I don’t believe for one minute that muslim MPs would support gay rights if they were in the majority and had any real power.

  19. Pumpkin Pie 25 Aug 2009, 2:47am

    The Muslims are coming! The Muslims are coming!

    Some of you people are bloody idiots. Muslims make up 2.8% of the UK’s population. I have no idea what percent of the population are white British-born homophobes, but if it was anything near 2.8% I would be a very, very happy person. There is no Islamofascist threat. The crescent moon is not rising upon the British Isles. You fear an imaginary threat and try to combat it with another threat – you are quite literally attempting to chase ghosts out of your house with a flamethrower.

    Do any of you BNP-supporters even have any Muslim friends? I do. You might be amazed to hear that they’re not all gay-bashing woman-subjugators! Really! Believe it or not, the super-orthodox religious ones are only a small minority. I know! Just like in Christianity! Crazy, huh? One of my bestest pals is a Muslim foreigner who came here to study biochemistry. He likes badminton and pulp sci-fi/fantasy films. He likes sharia law less. A lot less. In fact, I don’t recall him ever talking about it. Or infidels, for that matter. The BNP is very specific in its beliefs and what it would do if empowered. Muslims belong to many, many different sects with takes on Islam as diverse as you’d find in Christianity. When someone says they’re muslim, you have no idea what beliefs they follow, or even if they’re ardent followers or just casual observers who are only in it due to culture and heritage. When someone says they’re in the BNP, you know exactly what sort of person they are and exactly what choice they made.

    Basically, there is a MUCH greater chance of a nuclear holocaust wiping us all out than there is of this 2.8% (yes, I know it’s rising – it’s been rising for decades) taking over our country and abolishing our rights. On the other hand, the BNP are a political party who, thanks to reactionist morons, are now in the European Parliament.

    You do remember what reactionary nationalism led to in 1930s Germany, right? I ask only because I’m baffled at how spectacularly people fail to learn from the mistakes of the past. That’s what the past is there for – there’s a lot of good lessons in there.

    Additionally, what’s all this utter tosh about the NBPA being a racist organisation? They’re a support group that provides a specific service to people with specific experiences and needs. Are you village idiots going to complain that Alcoholics Anonymous won’t help people who are addicted to cigarettes?

    Honestly, this whole line of reasoning is so utterly ridiculous that there’s barely anything to say on the matter. Different sorts of people need different types of support. That diverse support groups exist is a good thing. Political parties, however, aim for the power to affect us ALL.

    Helping black people because it’s your area of expertise is wonderful. Trying to create an apartheid state in a multi-ethnic country is despicable. You cannot have a party for X sort of person. It does not work like that. Political parties represent and affect their fellow citizens as a whole, thus all citizens should be allowed to join them.

  20. As a half british, half arab gay lad from a muslim family. I find all this support for the BNP horrific. Under them my father and even myself would be given the option to be deported. My father has lived and worked and payed taxes longer in this country longer than he has lived in his home country. He even served in the royal navy before a hearing problem meant he had to leave.

    Growing up pre 9-11 no one new what a muslim was. Then when I was in school when it happened I had teachers telling me I should be ashamed of myself. My mothers scarf was ripped from her head on many occasions and our mosque covered in buckets of paint. (later found out to be organised by you know who)

    The BNP stands for HATRED of muslims. Period.

  21. I don’t like Islam or the BNP and just for the record. They both represent, torture, death (on a big scale)anti all human rights, aggression, corruption, subjugation and so on. Oh and just for the record here is some intereting reading :-
    Top 10 Quran quotes
    1. Mature men are allowed to marry prepubescent girls. Sura 65:1, 4
    2. Husbands may hit their wives. Sura 4:34
    3. A husband may simply get rid of an undesirable wife. Sura 4:129
    4. A man may be polygamous with up to four wives. Sura 4:3
    5.Slave-girls are sexual property for their male owners. Sura 4:24
    6.A wife may remarry her ex-husband if and only if she marries another man and then this second man divorces her. Sura 2:230 says:
    7. A womans testimony counts half of a mans testimony. Sura 2:282
    8. A male gets a double share of the inheritance over that of a female. Sura 4:11
    9. Husbands are a degree above their wives. Sura 2:228
    10. A husband has sex with his wife, as a plow goes into a field. Sura (Chapter) 2:223

  22. Brian Burton 25 Aug 2009, 8:26am

    What passions you display on the BNP subject you ‘Children Of Pink.’ I have (I know) lived longer than any one of you and I have seen all this passion before displayed like the charge of young Bulls crashing through the vail of Time. The only history that this subject preserves is the history of it’s own progress!
    When a thing is usless, it should be made beautiful, otherwise it has no reason for existing at all.

  23. PumpkinPie: You may quote an average of 2.8% across the UK, but where I live, I can assure you it is over 70%. In that sort of environment, it is YOU who is the outsider. I have been chastised for eating in the street during Ramadan, so what do you think their response would be if they knew I was married to a man?

    Stop being so f_cking politically correct and face the true reality of the situation; this country is slowly, but surely being taken over. Many people are aware of Jihad, but far less have heard of Dhimmi; this has much the same purpose as Jihad, takeover, but it works far more underhand and insidiously. It uses indirect coercion rather than direct attack. Don’t take my word for it, check http://www.jihadwatch.org

  24. I hate to disagree with everybody here but surely this is about free speech. Surely there can only be one definition of political free speech – either everyone has it or no-one does, no matter how distasteful any of us might find what is said.

    If you deny Joe Xs right to free speech then why can’t he also ask for your free speech to be constrained, in the interests of fairness and universal liberty, because he finds what you say to be objectionable and an infringement of his rights. The BNP, no matter how much I might disagree with them, the islamofascists, no matter how much I might deprecate their viewpoint and their Koranically inspired and Sharia based hatreds (and, believe me, I deprecate the Koranically inspired and ridiculous Islamic supremacist ideas just as strongly as I deprecate and fight against all the others who seek to undermine our liberal society) have the same political rights as the leftist idiots (idiots only in my opinion, of course) to espouse their hatreds and their limited world-views as I do so espouse mine. If that is not the case then we do not live in a free society wherein – politically – we are all allowed to speak our minds and voice our dangerous and different political opinions as our consciences dictate.

    Silencing an opposition doesn’t make it go away – it merely drives it underground. That is a lesson which the politically correct have yet to learn! Also, and just by the by, have any of actually read widely, not that weasel word ‘widely, at www dot jihadwatch org or at www dot newenglishreview dot org and actually examined the arguments being advanced there?

    And, whilst we’re on the subject, how many of you have actually read the Koran, how many of you have actually studied the four schools of Islamic jurisprudence, how many of you have actually made any efort at all to understand what is being said to you, preached at you, by radical Muslims both here and abroad?

    Most of you have bought wholesale into the propaganda that Islam is a ‘religion of peace’ when exactly the opposite is true – just read at http colon slash slash www dot jihadwatch dot org slash articles slash bloggingtheq dot php and wake up.

    For heaven’s sake, we gay people are fighting for our lives here – it’s time to cut through the cr-ppy fog of political correctness and see things as they actually are. Either we take the lead and fight every illiberal movement as it comes along – BNP and Islamofascism alike – or we surrender the field to those like the BNP who have, at least, a clear, but erroneous, message of British identity.

    Our version of British identity should be that which triumphs, not theirs – a free identity uninfluenced by religion or bigotry. However, as long as you deny the bigotry inherent in unchanging and unchangeable Islam, in Islam, note, not in the Muslims, you deny freedom and play into the hands of the bigots in the BNP.

    But free political speech is an absolute – if you deny it to those who hate us then you deny it to yourself. Politically one must be free to say anything and everything – no matter how reprehensible your sayings might be.

    I’ve noted, at this site, an inordinate willingness to silence the oposition by demanding that the moderator removes posts that are found to be distasteful – Why? Do you not have enough confidence in the strengths of your own arguments to withstand the petty vidictivnesess of the idiots and the small of understanding arraigned against you? Do you really have to recourse to the moderator at this site simply because someone challenges your view of the world. I’ve never gone down that route and I never will.

    When someone challenges my views at this site – even if they are the fundamentalist biblical literalist like Mr. Skinner – then I will answer them in the best terms that I can but I will not cut them off by reporting them to the moderator and insisting that their posts, or comments, should and must be withdrawn.

    To do so is dishonest and a complete negation of free speech. I know what I believe and I can defend it for myself and I don’t need others to defend my sensibilities by deleting so-called inappropriate comments. I’m a gay adult and I can manage this for myself – anything else is just plain insulting to my intelligence!

    Free speech is an absolute and I’ll defend it to my death because, to be frank with you, I can, and so can you!

    The great glory of this site was that it was unmoderated. It’s now, it seems, moderated and it has thereby lost some of its sheen.

  25. Thanks John M.J. Great contribution

  26. John M.J. the EHRC arent talking about silencing the BNP they are talking about challenging their membership criteria. All political parties espouse their political views, but the BNP are the only ones that wont let black people join. It’s illegal. Its as simple as that.

    Pumpkin Pie – thank god you are here!

  27. the BNP are racist and homophobic
    I don’t get how any LBG people could join them

  28. Tut tut, Kim, you said ounces, and we all know that we must only talk about grammes and kilos under our EU serfdom.

    This is a classic example of the lunacy of politics by lobby group. Some pigs are more equal than others, quite clearly. The politicisation of all parts of government and the civil service has and will damage this country terribly.

    I have no time for the BNP at all, but they have been elected. The sight of the police sitting back and smirking with Nick Griffen got attacked by protestors outside Parliament was a disgrace – every citizen deserves to be protected from crime, not just like-minded folk.

    I was attacked by a gang of black youths in Kennington a few eeks back. I dialled 999 and when the police (eventually) turned up and found two other victims who had also dialled 999, and I identified soem of the attackers who were still in the street, all they could say is that as there was no CCTV there was nothing they could do. I said that I thought it was racially motivated as a black woman was walking just in front of me and wasn’t attacked, and other black people walked down the same road afterwards and were not attacked. and I got a look from the police as though I was something out of Hitler’s bunker.

    Now if I had said I thought it was a homophobic attack, imagine the repsonse!

  29. This debate is very interesting if only for some of the huge assumptions we all seem to make about difference – so some gays support the BNP what’s new – and hey some muslims don’t like gays and? Half the problem is that we always seem to look for scape goats for any incident that happens in ouir lives. So we then argue homophobia vs islamphobia vs racism vs sexism etc instead of realising they are all the same struggle – least we forget what brings us to this website and the great gays and straights black and white muslim christians jews and Im sure even bloody Jedi nights – lets take stock of the fact that actually being different is a wonderful thing – god (oops) forbit I looked, behaved, eat, slept, drove the same car the list goes on as my neighbour. DIFFERENCE is GREAT everything else sucks

  30. @ Pumpkin Pie

    “The Muslims are coming! The Muslims are coming!…Some of you people are bloody idiots. Muslims make up 2.8% of the UK’s population…Basically, there is a MUCH greater chance of a nuclear holocaust wiping us all out than there is of this 2.8% (yes, I know it’s rising – it’s been rising for decades) taking over our country and abolishing our rights.”

    I love how the profoundly ignorant are always the first to call detractors idiots.

    You really need to get a grip and educate yourself on the realities of Islamofascism and its massively expanding base, and what it will mean for us when it happens.

    “Britain and the rest of the European Union are ignoring a demographic time bomb: a recent rush into the EU by migrants, including millions of Muslims, will change the continent beyond recognition over the next two decades, and almost no policy-makers are talking about it.

    The numbers are startling. Only 3.2 per cent of Spain’s population was foreign-born in 1998. In 2007 it was 13.4 per cent. Europe’s Muslim population has more than doubled in the past 30 years and will have doubled again by 2015. In Brussels, the top seven baby boys’ names recently were Mohamed, Adam, Rayan, Ayoub, Mehdi, Amine and Hamza.

    Europe’s low white birth rate, coupled with faster multiplying migrants, will change fundamentally what we take to mean by European culture and society. The altered population mix has far-reaching implications for education, housing, welfare, labour, the arts and everything in between…”

    BNP propaganda?

    No, a report from the Daily Telegraph.

  31. There have been many reports about the rising Muslim population in Europe. Some studies have predicted that they will be the majority in some western European countries by 2030. That’s within our lifetime, and I for one don’t relish the thought. I suppose the PC brigade will still be defending them even when they re-criminalise homosexuality. If Muslim numbers continue to rise, it could be a definite threat to the gay community, and I can’t believe there are gay people who are so politically correct they can’t see that. After all, can anyone name a Muslim country where homosexuality is legal?

  32. Precisely Andy.

  33. “Pumpkin pie” – here we can see a living, breathing example of a “politically correct”…person…displaying their ignorance.

    To take a couple of quotes from you: “Some of you people are bloody idiots. Muslims make up 2.8% of the UK’s population”

    Do they? Where did you get that figure? (not the 2001 census by any chance was it?)…in recent years the muslim population has skyrocketed thanks to massive immigration AND a significantly higher birth rate in muslim families. It’s now between 4% and 5% – still sounds “small”, you might argue, but read on below.

    You said…”yes, I know it’s rising – it’s been rising for decades”.

    But has it been multiplying ten times faster than everyone else for “decades”? In the last five years the UK muslim population is believed to have risen ten times faster than everyone else, as follows:

    2004: 1,870,000

    2005: 2,017,000

    2006: 2,142,000

    2007: 2,327,000

    2008: 2,422,000

    That’s about 550,000 in five years. The source of these figures? The BNP? An anti-immigration group? NO. The Office for National Statistics. They revealed this was TEN TIMES faster growth than other populations.

    Read here for further info: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article5621482.ece

    The muslim population also tends to be congregated in urban, city areas – meaning the muslim population in all of our major cities is much, much, much higher than the national % which is covering rural areas as well. Already, we have areas like Bradford and parts of East London that are 70%, 80%, or even higher, muslim (have you ever visited these areas?) Expect all cities to follow suite in time, if the high growth does not slow down.

    You asked how many of us actually know a muslim? I do. That’s how I became to feel so passionately about this issue, when a gay muslim friend almost died after being attacked by his cousins and former school “friends” when they discovered he was gay. His entire family and friends…basically his whole community..have since completely cut him off. I’ve heard of other examples. So while I accept and would argue that we shouldn’t label every muslim as homophobic, no one can deny the significantly high levels of hatred and homophobia in the muslim community.

    But hey, you’re too busy wringing your hands and burying your head in the sand. If you’re ever a victim of Islamic homophobia (which will surely become more common in the future) maybe you’ll regret selling away all your ideals just to be politically correct and “not racist”.

  34. Brian Burton 25 Aug 2009, 7:54pm

    John M.J.
    Sorry John, your opening remarks, ‘Free Speach’ It’s just the same ‘utterly British’ attitude that is sleep-walking us all into a ‘Jehadic State.’ I hope you are aware of the fact that there is 85 Saria Courts already in this ‘Free Speach’ Country of ours.
    The koran is not read by the British because it has no sex in it. I have heard followers of the Koran call Christianity ‘A filthy Religion,’ I expect they mean it…thats free speach!

  35. I’m much more worried about the rise of Islamism than the BNP. If I had to choose one or the other to rule the UK, I’d choose BNP….definitely the “lesser of two evils”.

  36. Brian Burton 25 Aug 2009, 9:41pm

    Bentley,
    There is no lesser of two evils….Both are equally evil. I hope you see that?

  37. No quite frankly I don’t see that.

    Are you comparing a political party which has fairly been elected in two European seats but which you find disagreeable, to a stone-age religion that advocates death for homosexuality and adultery? Good grief. I’d take my chances with a bunch of skinheads over a bunch of Islamists anyday.

    Another interesting article in today’s press: http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/edwest/100007334/muslim-immigration-the-most-radical-change-in-european-history/
    Look at the comments – it seems many are finally waking up to what’s happening.

    Sadly I can’t forsee a happy ending to all this – it’s only going to get worse. And “politically correct” lefties who scream “racist” every time someone criticises Islam will not help matters; their attempts to stifle debate are not making this go away and are in fact simply pushing people towards the BNP/far-right.

    What we need is the main political parties admitting there is a problem and coming up with some fair proposals to deal with it.

  38. Anyway to sum up RobN hits the nail on the head. Go to Shoreditch and show some solidarity with gay people who are coming under attack from Bengali thugs. PS RobN – I hope you continue to be seen eating and smoking and drinking in the streets.

    Meanwhile the dummies at the CBI are recommending people hide the biscuits at meetings to show sensitivity for those taking part in ramadan. Why not put minarets around the Centrepoint building and have done with it?

    The tories and Labour are support opening faith schools all over the place – stopping any chance of integration.

    We don’t need to jump to the BNP and the pseudoscientific premises on which they base their policies though, to know that radical islam is a poison we must all fight. We should be turnign to John Stuart Mill and Thomas Paine for inspiration, and their works should be mandatory for all children.

    Remember, the LGBT community are the first in line – are we an expendable minority? most probably.

  39. “radical islam is a poison we must all fight” – AdrianT

    Very true, Adrian. I wish the politically correct idiots would take their heads out of the sand. They are defending fascism and intolerance simply because the perpetrators are (mostly) of an ethnic minority. They’re happy to bash Christianity when bishops criticise homosexuality but when an Islamic preacher of hate calls for gays to be executed they are silent. Why? If Islam was a white eastern european religion, would be getting this kind of hypocrisy? There is absolutely nothing left-wing in defending,and encouraging the spread of, ANY religion, particularly Islam.

  40. We should bash all religion and drive it out of the public sphere, and the same goes for any doctrine that is not based on sound, falsifiable evidence, Bentley.

    You also make a mistake by asking if we would treat it differently if it were a white phenomenon. Well, there are dozens of white islamic extremists who converted to the faith already.

  41. “You also make a mistake by asking if we would treat it differently if it were a white phenomenon. Well, there are dozens of white islamic extremists who converted to the faith already.” – AdrianT.

    Read again, I was actually asking if the “politically correct” left would treat it (Islam) differently. I think they would – I don’t think they’d be defending it and avoiding criticising it, to the exent they do. I genuinely think some of them have an in-built mechanism that makes them unable to criticise ethnic minorities because of some fear of being “racist”. It’s resulted in the pathetic appeasment we see today.

    Everything the left is meant to stand for (freedom, gay rights, women’s rights, democracy, etc) is incompatible with parts of Islam. It’s a bizarre alliance.

    “We should bash all religion and drive it out of the public sphere, and the same goes for any doctrine that is not based on sound, falsifiable evidence, Bentley.”

    I’ve never said otherwise. I have no time for Christian bigots either and happily criticise them. But my main concern now lies with Islam – the Catholic church is withering; congregrations dwindling and influence gradually disappearing. Islam, on the other hand, is rising, and is much more hard-line.

  42. Very well. I had to be sure about your motives for posting in this thread.

    I think too many on the left are indeed still too blind to the dangers of fundamentalism. They will do anything, to stop another train bombing and make some of the most appalling alliances.

    The only people with a clear understanding of how to create cohesion are the National Secular Society.

    PS: Pim Fortuyn R.I.P.

  43. Brian Burton 26 Aug 2009, 6:13am

    Gently Bentley,
    You preach hatred quite unashamedley, you are an extreamest of sorts. The name ‘Bentley’ has ‘just’ materialised suddely. We are going to keep a close watch on ‘Gentley Bentley!’

  44. Sister Mary Clarence 26 Aug 2009, 9:29am

    Jesus Christ the slightest mention of BNP on here and the facist scum are out in force.

    Interested to read to line about someone’s gay friend who has joined the BNP. Was he instrumental in the removal of the proposal to re-criminalise homosexuality in their 2005 manifesto, I wonder? Perhaps he could come on here an post an explanation of why they oppose civil partnerships and want to re-introduce Section 28 style legislation. If he could also factor in how that would affect our position in Europe and how we would get round the ensuing breaches of the Treaty of Amsterdam and the European Convention on Human Rights.

    I am confused as to why it appears that so many people seem to thing that we have to either choose between the BNP and Islamic extremism. The BNP were around long before there were issues here with Islamic extremist by they were seeking support under a different ticket in those days. Society has evolved and I guess they have too. In twenty or thirty years there will be other pressing society issues that require the BNP to offer us salvation from I don’t know what.

    Obviously when I use the term ‘us’, I’m not including myself in that. Apparently I’ll be in a crate back to Africa, where no doubt they’ll unpack me and stone me to death for being a great big homo.

  45. Well said SMC. There are some thick idiots among us unfortunately.

  46. Brian Burton 26 Aug 2009, 11:49am

    SMC…Adrian T.
    We had the ‘National Front’ in the 1960s. They were as odius as the BNP are now, plenty of skin-heads too. A man I worked with in the 1960s told me he was going to vote ‘National Front’ because he was disilluioned with two party politics. This man had actually gone through six years of WW2. He was always disgruntled about something though. These extreme parties and groups come and go…I have seen it over the years, so I know what I am saying. If ever there was radicle, political change in the UK. It will not be in SMC or Adrian Ts Lifetime.

  47. @ Sister Mary Clarence

    I think people who use the word “scum” to describe fellow human beings they perceive to be opponents are as close to fascist as it gets. The sheer hate it conveys for fellow humans is disgusting.

    I have made comments here in support of the democratic freedom that this country is ostensibly based upon; you cannot have freedom and equality selectively, only if you agree with that piece of freedom and equality.

    The fact is that the BNP are a legitimate political party that are providing a legitimate political outlet and now have a million people voting for them, with over 100 councillors – including 3 county – a member of the GLA and 2 MEP’s. All democratically elected. They clearly have a mandate, if a small one.

    They have had the same constitution for nearly 30 years without action, but now, after significant gains in the last elections, and less then a year from the General Election, the NuLabour quango EHRC decides that its membership polices are illegal? Come one, it is the tactics of banana republic.

    And considering that all of these other organisations I listed above have restrictive membership polices based upon ethnicity that they claim to be S26 exempt, why should the BNP be singled out for legal action? It is NOT because they are a political party because the law applies to EVERY organisation. The National Black Police Association, who’s members have considerable power over their fellow citizens, make this extraordinary disclaimer on their website: “The definition of ‘Black’ does not refer to skin colour.” – and apparently that is good enough for the EHRC to look away.

    It stinks. It reeks.

    And I think the reason that some people here feel that the BNP and Islamofascism are intertwined is because none of the other PC parties will even ACKNOWLEDGE that there IS a huge problem brewing with Islamofascism.

    As for Section 28, I personally couldn’t care less about it; I think that this odious and sinister government are forcing all sexual issues onto children far too young. LBG had been around as long as man and so it shall continue. We cant be legislated out of existence. But we can be stoned out of existence.

    And that is a realistic concern; not just of Islamofascists taking over the whole country but whole areas of it too; and they are. Even in sedate places like Oslo it is happening; a few days ago a young Norwegian gay couple were walking hand in hand through their own capital city when they were confronted and one was beaten after being told: ‘I don’t like this. This is a Muslim area.’“

    (After the first minute, the video below in English.)

    http://www.dagbladet.no/2009/08/19/nyheter/innenriks/vold/hatkriminalitet/7723180/

    This is the REAL threat we all face, not some spurious claim of being packed into crates.

  48. Sister Mary Clarence 26 Aug 2009, 3:42pm

    Always have been and always will Adrian, however I very much doubt we’ll see much change in the BNP’s political clout. There aren’t enough people that stupid. They might pick up a percentage of disaffected voters, but the British political system is more robust than to allow the lunatics to take over

  49. Yes Sister Mary, the system is a wonderful oligarchy, undemocratic to the core. Luckily, we have a system that will stifle any dissenting voices that go against the grain. As for the “fascist scum” mentioned in another post, wasn’t it our very own political establishment that was taking our views into consideration when it obliterated large parts of Baghdad and Basra with its shock and awe, wiping out many of the symbols of the diverse communities that lived in these places? Not in my name indeed.
    By the way, any of you liberal minded folk been for a walk around Leicester lately? I’m sure many of the recent arrivals will have time to chat to you about your sexual beliefs…

  50. Sister Mary Clarence 26 Aug 2009, 5:43pm

    Well the good thing is James for all its faults it keeps the racist scum were they belong.

    Are you suggesting then that we vote for the BNP to prevent action in Iraq? Got to give it to you – you do move with the times!!

    Haven’t been to Leicester lately but I often marvel at all these foreigners coming over here, setting up home, getting jobs and paying taxes. They must know half there taxes are going being throw at all these born and bred Brits who are too good to get their hands dirty doing a days work when they can hoover up tens of thousands in benefits instead.

    It really is a credit to them that they thing so much of this country that they are prepared to pay for other people to do sod all, just so that they can give their families a better life.

    I have to laugh as well these days when I hear people hacking on about them coming over and taking ‘our’ jobs. Dear me, there didn’t seem to be a stampede for the job centre for the last ten years, and yet blimey now they all seem SO frustrated they can’t seem to find a job.

    What’s that old saying … you don’t know what you had til its gone ….

  51. Sister Mary, you make some good points. I very much doubt that the BNP will ever get to a position of power in this country, thank God, and any gay person that supports them is an idiot. However, you surely must acknowledge that Islam could be a threat to gay people if Muslims numbers continue to increase and they gain any real power in Europe. There isn’t a Muslim state on the planet where gays have any rights, so I don’t think it’s only extremists we would need to worry about.

  52. Mary seems to have his/her head in the sand, poor dear.

    I don’t understand how people can happily bash the BNP but remain silent about Islamofascism – you don’t get much more right-wing than Islam (look at gay rights, treatment of women, etc) – and yet we have “left wing” people allying with them because they’re a “minority” – or because they don’t want anyone to think they’re “rAcIsT!!11″. Sad.

  53. Just looked at the link that was posted a few posts up (http://www.dagbladet.no/2009/08/19/nyheter/innenriks/vold/hatkriminalitet/7723180/) about the homophobic attack in a muslim area in Norway this week.

    Look at the video, around 1.40 the fool says “this is a multicultural area” as a reason for why gay people should not “display” their sexuality. And at 2.57 saying “if possible” he’d like it to be banned gay people holding hands etc in the area because it’s “mostly asian” people there.

    Funny, I thought “multicultural” meant a diverse coming together of all people and living together peacefully no matter their race, colour, religion, sexuality, etc; not for intolerant bigots to use their “culture” as an excuse to “import” hatred/intolerance from another culture into a European democratic society.

    Oh how the Norwegian people must feel betrayed. They’ve probably had this forced on them too, like us.

    “No go” areas for gays already exist and are steadily growing. Try being openly gay in Bradford. Even in East London (re the 2008-09 Shoreditch attacks) life seems to be becoming more difficult for gay people.

    What’s sad is to see gay people here apparently so “politically correct” that they feel the need to defend people who hate them.

  54. @ Sister Mary Clarence

    “They must know half there taxes are going being throw at all these born and bred Brits who are too good to get their hands dirty doing a days work when they can hoover up tens of thousands in benefits instead”

    Now that’s a racist statement if ever I heard one; and a baseless one contary to all the evidence at that.

    But all in all, Sister Mary Clarence I have invariably found that people who consistently insist on labelling perceived opponents – fellow human beings – as scum are really they themselves as close to that word as is humanly possible.

    You are quite clearly opposed to everything this country stands for (apart from under nulabour) – democracy, freedom of speech and freedom of representation.

    I think you fit in well with the Islamofascists.

  55. Sister Mary Clarence 26 Aug 2009, 10:07pm

    “Now that’s a racist statement if ever I heard one; and a baseless one contary to all the evidence at that.”

    How’s that a racist statement, then Kimm? “born and bred Brits” can refer to all manner of ethnicities, although it would appear that you preceive it to only refer to one, and I’m going to hazard a guess that it would be a white one?

    Who exactly do you think gets the lions share of the DWP’s £120 billion budget then – Leicester’s Asian community? Baseless my arse.

    “You are quite clearly opposed to everything this country stands for (apart from under nulabour)”

    Been here before kimm have you, or perhaps some nasty little Fascist parachuted in to give a positive spin to this story?

    As anyone who has been on this site any length of time with tell you, it would be a cold day in hell before I’d vote Labour. So well off the mark again sweetheart.

  56. “How’s that a racist statement, then Kimm? “born and bred Brits” can refer to all manner of ethnicities, although it would appear that you preceive it to only refer to one, and I’m going to hazard a guess that it would be a white one?”

    I think your racist thoughts on this were quite obvious really, but it your racism is revealed fully by your next comment in any case.

    “Who exactly do you think gets the lions share of the DWP’s £120 billion budget then – Leicester’s Asian community?

    So clearly YOU do not consider Leicester’s Asian community to be British? Why is that? Because they are Asian? So, who is British in your racist book?

    “Been here before kimm have you, or perhaps some nasty little Fascist parachuted in to give a positive spin to this story?”

    Must be, because I disagree with a racist fool like you.

    Or maybe I’m just “scum” eh?

  57. “Who exactly do you think gets the lions share of the DWP’s £120 billion budget then – Leicester’s Asian community? Baseless my arse” – Mary

    Well, to take just one of the Leicester immigrant communities as an example:

    “We did research in 2004 and the unemployment rate within the community is almost 85 percent,” says Jawaahir Daahir, head of Somali Development Services, which provides training, help and advice.”
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7312814.stm

    85%!

    It’s not wise to go down the road of saying one race is more “lazy” or “benefit-claiming” than the other, Mary. Especially when you don’t have any statistics to back up your statements, only your own prejudice and personal opinion.

  58. I think the majority of LGBT people see the danger only too well.
    And equally, the vast majority, rightly see the BNP as a party that bases its beliefs on whacko nonsense, and underneath the clean suits, the neo-nazi rhetoric is alive and kicking, usually in working men’s clubs in lancashire. (the stupid idea that there is anything superior about white caucasians is demolished in jared diamond’s ‘guns, germs and steel’.)

    THe BNP, like christian fundamentalists, scare people into believing the only choice is to turn a religious problem into a racial problem, which it is not. It has nothing to do with the pigmentation of the epidermis. An obscene notion.

    The problem is this: the political parties just love religion; the politicians are spineless whimps who surrender to whoever has the loudest, most threatening voice. They take too much notice of self appointed community leaders, who are theocratic reactionaries. When women and children are abused, threatened, abused, assaulted they don’t really want to know.

    The way forward is to make it clear, there will be no no-go zones on any square inch of this country; to close all faith schools; and to ensure women in muslim communities better protection, and know their rights. And to come down like a ton of bricks on thugs. Anyone who wants shariafascism should be encouraged to leave.

    It’s also down to the gay community to make itself seen and heard. Go and make a trip to shoreditch or bradford and have a drink in the local gay pub, just out of solidarity. people affected by any troubles should make themselves heard by telling their stories to the press too.

    The positive thing is that gay pride celebrations are appearing for the first time in many northern towns. it’s really important this continues. the muslim community must get used to the fact that this is a democracy, it will always be a democracy, and we will never have sharia nonsense in this country.

  59. Sister Mary Clarence 27 Aug 2009, 8:20am

    Bentley, research in London among the Somalian community actually showed 71%, and it is acknowledged by, well everyone but you it seems, that the Somali community is not representitive of migrant communities in the UK, largely becuase many of them are so screwed up after having lived through the atrocities of the civil war there.

    You’re obviously clever enough to dredge up statisitics for your own purposes but you might want to look at some of the research caried out by UK Global Entrepreneurship Monitor/DTI which showed:

    “Britons of African, African-Caribbean and Asian origin have far more entrepreneurial flair than their white counterparts and are much more inclined to start a business, a government-funded survey published today shows.”

    “Britons of African, African-Caribbean and Asian origin have far more entrepreneurial flair than their white counterparts and are much more inclined to start a business, a government-funded survey published today shows.”

    “Africans were nearly five times as likely as people of white origin to be involved in business start-ups, while people from Jamaica and other Caribbean countries were three times as likely to create their own business and Asians twice as likely to set up a new business.”

    “The business background of many African immigrants and prejudice in the workplace against black people have been identified as factors behind the results.”

    “Prejudice in the workplace” – Can you imagine that Bentley in this day and age?

  60. Are you an Islamophobe? Here is a simple test:

    Do you favour equal rights in the treatment of women and men?
    Do you oppose the stoning of women accused of adultery?
    Do you favour mandatory education of girls, as well as boys, everywhere?
    Do you oppose slavery and child prostitution?
    Do you support complete freedom of expression and the freedom of the press, no matter how obnoxious the press might appear to be to you?
    Do you support the right of an individual to worship in his or her chosen religion?
    Do you oppose government and mosque, or church, supported anti-Semitic publications, radio, TV and textbooks?
    Do you oppose the wearing of burqas in public places, in schools and courts for example?
    Do you oppose segregation of the sexes in public places and in houses of worship?
    Do you oppose the death penalty for non-Muslims and Muslims who convert to another religion?
    Do you oppose “honour” killings?
    Do you oppose female genital mutilation?
    Do you oppose forced sexual relations?
    Do you oppose discrimination against homosexuals?
    Do you support the right to criticise religion?
    Do you oppose polygamy?
    Do you oppose child marriage, forced or otherwise?
    Do you oppose the Koranic mandate to kill non-Muslims and apostates?
    Do you oppose the addition of Sharia courts to your country’s legal system?
    Do you disagree with the Koran which asserts the superiority of Islam over all other religions?

    If you answered most, or all, of these questions affirmatively, you are a vile Islamophobe and deserve to be beheaded as the Koran instructs.

    If you answered one third or more of them affirmatively, you are a borderline Islamophobe and need to receive brainwashing to become a full-fledged dhimmi.

    If you answered a quarter, or fewer, of them affirmatively, you need a few private lessons in dhimmitude to scrub yourself clean of the remnants of Islamophobia.

    If you answered affirmatively to NONE of these then you have my congratulations – not! You are a worthy, observant Muslim and you have a bright future ahead of you vilifying Jews, torturing women, denying the reality of Gay people, or, inshallah, becoming a suicide bomber and a hater of all things free.

    It isn’t just Christian fundamentalists who are out to get us – to kill us – it’s also many other fundamentalists of several other religions. Intolerant bigotry knows no bounds and is not constrained by any particular religion. Bentley has the right of it – here and in other places at this site wherein he has posted.

    Islam is a religion not a race – get it Kimm – a religion not a race, so standing against the petty stupidities and vile hatreds of Islam is not racist but common sense; Sister Mary Clarence has the right of it and you fail to see it and to appreciate the fact that you have willingly bought into the vile Islamic propaganda which deliberately seeks to confuse race with religion in order to advance the evil that is fundamentalist, religious Islam. By so doing you are also giving a free pass to the hatred mongered by my fellow religionists – the zealot, fundamentalist, Biblical-literalist Christians against whom I have spent many hours, and expended much effort, arguing.

    Once again let me state it quite clearly – Islam is a religion, a belief: it is not, nor can it claim to be, a race. Therefore, it is quite in order to challenge Islam and, when one does so, to categorically refute any charge of racism that may levelled against one for so doing.

    Got it, Kimm? Islam is a religion, not a race. Have you got that?

  61. @ Sister Mary Clarence

    You have been exposed as a racist who think that Asian people are not and cannot be British. Shame on you. But yet you have the front to call others “racist scum.”

    “that the Somali community is not representitive of migrant communities in the UK”

    Bentley already told you: It’s not wise to go down the road of saying one race is more “lazy” or “benefit-claiming” than the other, Mary. Especially when you don’t have any statistics to back up your statements, only your own prejudice and personal opinion.

    According to the TUC report Black workers, jobs and poverty people from black and Asian groups are far more likely to be unemployed than the white population, despite having the required skills and qualifications. The rate of unemployment among the white population is only 11%, but among black groups it is 13%, mixed-race 15%, Indian 7%, Pakistani 15% and Bangladeshi 17%. The usual argument to counter high unemployment rates among black and Asian people – namely that they lack the necessary skills and qualifications – does not bear merit, the report states. For example, 81.4% of black and Asian people with degrees are employed, compared with 87.4% of white people.

    http://www.tuc.org.uk/welfare/tuc-10172-f0.pdf

    “Prejudice in the workplace” – Can you imagine that Bentley in this day and age?”

    Yes, it’s called positive discrimination and it bars white English people from applying for jobs with an English government agency paid for by English taxpayers in England.
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-473249/English-girl-barred-Government-job–wrong-kind-white.html

    @ John M.J
    What a bizarre and hysterical nonsensical rant.
    I have made the distinction and I have identified the real problem we face.
    If you had bothered to read the comments before your bizarre, hysterical rant and if you were capable of comprehending them you would know that I am calling out Sister Mary Clarence as a racist because she doesn’t think Asian people are, or can be British.
    Got it, John M.J? Sister Mary Clarence does not think Asian people are or can be British. Have you got that?

  62. Sister Mary Clarence 27 Aug 2009, 6:13pm

    Kimm, firstly you seem to be switching between immigrant and ethnic communities as and when it suits – it helps a discussion if you can keep the focus relevant and not chop and change to suit.

    Secondly, I have not stated that any race is more ‘lazy’ than another – I have however pointed out that some people are all to quick to target immigrant communities as living off benefits when the reality is something different.

    There may be some confusion when referring to immigrants. I referring to people who have emigrated from another country to the UK, not someone was born in the Chelsea and Westinister and whose family came here decades ago.

    You also use the phrase ‘paid for by English tax payers’. Are you not understanding that many many people other than English people pay taxes in this multi-cultural country. Maybe some of them might feel that should an jobs come up in and ‘English government agency’ (whatever that is), then, if suitably qualified, they should be able to apply for that job.

    Perhaps you could take the trouble to explain why you believe that I do not ‘think Asian people are or can be British’. I re-read everything I’ve written and can’t fathom how you have come to that conclusion.

    Anyway once the Equalities Commission has stuffed the BNP, maybe we should all join you there one night Kimm, we could all have a bit of a laugh, maybe get a gay night going once a week, and what about a black sisters group maybe? We could maybe get a float at the Notting Hill Carnival.

    That’s just what the BNP needs, a few more gays – lighten it up a bit. Brighten it up as well. You still all wearing those brown shirts kimm?

    It might be a bit retro, but I’m thinking white cargo pants for summer and a light canvas shoe, for when we’re goose stepping through Bermondsey – its ideal because it works for boys and girls!! You don’t want anything too heavy. Its just the tops then. On the one hand I’m wondering about something with a wide horizontal navy strip, loose fitting. Its a bit Jean Paul Gaultier I know, and a horizontal strip can be difficult if you’re carrying a few extra pounds. Although to be fair, all that goose stepping should keep us all fairly fit, eh kimm? The only other option I can think of is an A&F style muscle-T – works for me every time, but am I being selfish?

    Obviously, once we’ve got over this little equalities hiccup, we’ll probably have a bit more of an ethnically diverse membership kimm, so I don’t know if you’ve got any ideas about the Hijāb and the Saree. I think blue and white would work with both of them, don’t you?

    Anyway, kimm, I’m very excited at the thought of being able to join. I have to confess to being one of these people that tends to move in and just take over, so look out that one that doesn’t like the eggs being thrown at him – I’m after his job.

    A great, big black load mouthed homo in charge, that’s what the BNP needs to finally rid itself of all those accusations of being a group of pig-thick, racist, homophobic inbreds. Can I count on your vote kimm? Bentley?

  63. @ Sister Mary Clarence

    Just another bizarre rant from a racist trying your racism onto project onto others.

    “Perhaps you could take the trouble to explain why you believe that I do not ‘think Asian people are or can be British’. I re-read everything I’ve written and can’t fathom how you have come to that conclusion.”

    Of course you can’t; let me ‘help’ you then:

    When told that you saying “all these born and bred Brits ” are too good to work and hoover up benefits that are half paid for by immigrants without a scrap of evidence was essentially a racist canard you responded with this:

    “How’s that a racist statement, then Kimm? “born and bred Brits” can refer to all manner of ethnicities, although it would appear that you preceive it to only refer to one, and I’m going to hazard a guess that it would be a white one?

    Who exactly do you think gets the lions share of the DWP’s £120 billion budget then – Leicester’s Asian community?”

    Clearly you are saying that “Leicester’s Asian community” are not British, not to be included in your “born and bred Brit” canard and clearly you identify the reason that you consider that they are not British is because they are Asian.

    But you know all of this – as so often happens, your racism just slipped out.

    As it does by suggesting that everyone in and from Bermondsey are Nazis. Is that because it is largely a white area? Being white = being racist? Does it? Even an area that has had a bisexual Lib Dem MP for decades? Doesn’t matter, no? You really are a nasty, judgmental prejudiced piece of work.

    And a pretty dense one too:

    “Maybe some of them might feel that should an jobs come up in and ‘English government agency’ (whatever that is), then, if suitably qualified, they should be able to apply for that job.”

    They can apply for the job. In fact anyone can. Anyone except the white English.

    Now that’s racism and discrimination.

    As for the rest of your weird prattle, its too bizarre to comment on.

    The next you scream racist scum at someone- look in the mirror first.

  64. Kimm, I think we’re wasting our time trying to have a rational debate with this “Mary” character.

    Bizarre outbursts; accusations of racism to try to stifle debate; calling anyone who disagrees with him/her “scum”; twisting people’s words; making statements without foundation then dodging it when shown statistics that disprove his/her statement; selective ignoring of points that it can’t answer; creating strawman arguments etc etc.

    Yes, I think I can see what kind of nasty, bigoted “chip-on-the-shoulder” attitude is at work here.

    I guess challenging positive discrimination/political correctness and pointing out the threats of radical Islam must make us Nazis in your eyes, Mary. Anyone who doesn’t bow down and worship NuLabour’s great (failed) experiment in “multiculturalism” is a nasty old racist, after all, isn’t that right Mary? *rolls eyes*

  65. Yes, I have to agree, sister Mary does tend to have a very narrow view of things, and tends to ignore valid comments that she/he can’t or won’t debate. I also get the feeling she/he is quite anti-white, the “goose stepping through Bermondsey” comment for example.

  66. Kimm/

    You have, of course, read the Koran, the a’hadith and the four main schools of Islamic jurisprudence? Naturally, you are also aware of the teachings of the Salafist (Wahabbist, that is to say, Saudi) sect of Islam which is currently pumping hundreds of millions of petrol-dollars into its Fundamentalist programmes in the West? You are completely familiar, I take it, with the strange beliefs of the highly influential Muslim Brotherhood – you know, those beliefs which call Christianity and other religions ‘dirty and disgusting’, those beliefs which deny women any rights as we understand them, those beliefs which call for apostates to be killed, those beliefs which deny the Holocaust, those beliefs which demand that gay people must be murdered? You are familiar with the basic tenets and beliefs of Islam, aren’t you? You are familiar, are you not, with the hatred and bile spewed out on a daily basis from such venerable Islamic institutions as the Cairo University? You have made yourself aware, I trust, of the vile calumnies and hate-filled stupidities which emanate from the Al-Aqsa University in the Gaza Strip?

    No, you aren’t – and I didn’t think for one moment that you were! You are just another decent person who has been suckered wholesale into the current and pervasive political correctness vis-a-vis Islam. You persist in confusing faith and belief with skin colour and race.

    I couldn’t give a monkey’s toss what skin colour all we British people end up having in the years to come, or what accent we choose to speak our language with; what bothers me much, much more than the colour of our future skins is the colour of our future thoughts. I stand for freedom, for a Britain which, in the future, has a citizenry who are ALL free – gay or straight, male or female, black or white, or any shading in between any of points of difference, who are all free and equal before the law and in society at large. Islam (in its current form), manifestly, does not, and cannot, support that agenda and belief.

    You, from your deeply under-read position of ignorance call us ‘bizarre’ (the only word, just as an irrelevant aside, which English, it seems, borrowed from the Basque tongue), and ‘hysterical’ and ‘nonsensical’ and ranting. For Heaven’s sake, just grow up! Just because some belief or other claims that it is suffering from some sort of unfair attack and that that attack is racist doesn’t make that belief true nor does it validate the ‘racist attack’ accusation.

    Go read the Koran, the a’hadith and the Islamic schools of jurisprudence and decide for yourself whether or not I rant in some bizarre fashion – don’t just accept some politically correct and Blairite stupidity as fact. When you’ve done that – which will take you about three or four years of concentrated study (as it did for me) – then come back here and argue with me. I’ll bet you’ll be singing a very different tune from the one you do now once you’ve done the reading and the studying.

    But then, of course, you won’t do that will you? Because, for you, and people like you, its axiomatic that I must be wrong because I disagree with you. You formulate the viewpoints which you hold before you read the evidence and then you twist the evidence, ignore the evidence and discredit the evidence in order to make it fit your viewpoints. That’s not exactly rigorous examination of the evidence with an open mind, is it? It is, however, exactly what we’ve all come to expect from people like you – closed minds operating in a closed intellectual environment which cannot admit to error or accept new views or countenance and examine change or difference – or challenges to your prevailing orthodoxy of political correctness.

    Good grief, sir; you are so limited and closed in your understandings and so bound up in your own ignorances that it is truly frightening! Almost, I fear you and yours more than I fear the fundamentalist religionists amongst us!

  67. Their racism aside, BNP are as wrong headed as politically correct left: they both see the problem as a racial one. If you make that mistake, you will let another 7/7 happen again.

    Why it is a faith problem is best explained in this speech by Dawkins:
    www. blip.tv/file/425979

  68. John M J – ummm, I’m confused by your post to be honest, as to why it is directed at kimm. Kimm has been challenging Islam in the article on these comments. I think your comments would be better directed at Sister Mary, who sees no threat in Islam and who’s views appear to be more “opposite to yours” than kimm’s.

  69. Sister Mary Clarence 28 Aug 2009, 11:21am

    Bentley, thank you for telling everyone what you perceive I think about Islam – perhaps you can let me know exactly where I have shared any such views with you.

    Redical religion from any quarter is not positive in any sort of integrated society. You appear to be advocating ridding the country of Islamic extremism by deporting all the non-whites. That might do it, but of course Islam is now well embedded within the UK, so can you talk us through how you would deal with those of native white British heritage would have taken up Islam?

    Could you also talk us through why you would be seeking to deport those not of native white British heritage who are not Muslim (fanatical or otherwise)? Hindos for example? Jews? Christians even? You get the idea.

  70. I think a few people have missed the point
    The BNP are most definitely racist and homophobic.
    That’s a fact

    Andy and Rich – good points, although Rich’s is a bit scary considering every muslim will learn those 10 points you mentioned and couldn’t possibly integrate into the country while they believe women are property to own and honour killings are justified.

  71. @ John M.J

    WTF are you on man?!!!

    Another bizarre and misdirected rant – and some!!!

    @ Sister Mary Clarence

    And the same surreal rubbish form a proven racist.

    Come on Mary – tell us why all the people of Bermondsey are racist and Asian people cannot be British?

  72. Thanks Mary for another gleaming example of you dodging points when you don’t have answers.

    And as for these statements made by you:

    “You appear to be advocating ridding the country of Islamic extremism by deporting all the non-whites.”

    Really? Show me where I’ve said that or hinted that or at least what makes it “appear” that’s what I want?

    “Could you also talk us through why you would be seeking to deport those not of native white British heritage who are not Muslim (fanatical or otherwise)? Hindos for example? Jews? Christians even”

    Again, where have I even hinted at deporting people?

    Classic example of someone clutching at straws, creating a strawman argument and of course trying to demonise anyone who disagrees as some sort of Nazi bigot who wants to deport people.

    I’d hardly want to deport non-whites when my own partner is middle-eastern. But for you everything is “black-and-white”, you either support uncontrolled immigration and Islamification OR you’re a racist bigot who hates all non-white people. How deluded.

    How sad you have to resort to such tactics – suggests you know you lost the debate a long time ago and have no real answers ;)

    I pity the paranoid, sad, chip-on-the-shoulder, “everyone is racist in my mind” world you must inhabit..lol

  73. Sister Mary Clarence 28 Aug 2009, 4:00pm

    Bentley – BNP policy is it not? You seem to be such a fan of them.

    That’s me explained my statement about you, so going back to my previous posting, explain your assertions about me.

    I find it very odd as a BNP frontman that you wouldn’t know all about the rascism that exists in Bermondsey. The following might jog a few memories:

    “Audrey Thompson reports on a project challenging the attitudes and behaviour of overtly racist young people in Bermondsey, south London”

    “The thought of trying to understand young people who carry out racist attacks would disturb the bravest of souls. It probably disturbed those working on the Bede Anti-Racist Detached Youth Project. But their purpose was to overcome their fears and work positively with young people that many of us would sooner stamp on with a large Dr. Martens boot.”

    “At the Bede, project co-ordinators Aine Woods, Ray Barker and Santiago Kamara worked at getting to know the overtly and dangerously racist young people who roamed three tower block estates in Bermondsey, south London. These were young people with ingrained racist attitudes, probably brought up by racist parents, often leafleted with British National Party literature, regularly out of school, unemployed, penniless, bored, and with something to prove.”

    “It took almost a year of weathering verbal abuse, threats and a serious arson attack on the Bede premises for the team to be half-way accepted by the community – not by everyone, of course, but enough to make a difference. The project team on the receiving end of all this anger consisted of a small Irish woman, an ex-National Front activist and a six foot three black man.”

    “The three-year project, funded by the National Youth Agency, worked in an area where racist attacks are so routine that black and ethnic minority people dare not leave their homes at night. It began at a time when the murders of Stephen Lawrence, the black teenager stabbed while waiting at a bus stop, Rolan Adams and Rohit Duggal were still very fresh in the popular mind.”

    Barker says: ‘The conversations I had with the young people were always about racism. And because I had been involved in that whole NF-BNP movement it helped. I could tell them how it really was. I used to belong to these people. I knew the leaders they idolised. But I also knew that the leaders of all these parties all come from middle class backgrounds and went to university – one of them was Oxford educated.

    “They have no links with working people in Bermondsey. They come into the area whipping up the local youths, who’d get into trouble and go to prison, and the leaders would send round press releases cutting themselves off from the youths’ activity.”

  74. @ Sister Mary Clarence

    Righto. That’s it is it? That is your excuse for labelling the whole of Bermondsey and the people in it as Nazis?

    Despite the fact that for the past 26 years the area has repeatedly elected a bisexual Lib Dem MP as their representative and has never had any official from the NF or BNP elected at any level?

    But don’t let the truth get in the way of a good racist fantasy eh?

    You are a despicable racist with a real chip on your shoulder.

    Now tell us about why, in your humble racist opinion, Asian people cannot be British?

  75. I’ve never mentioned Bermondsey. I don’t even know where it is, that was another poster who was talking about that. Try to keep up, dear, or at least target your hysterial replies to the right person.

    Oh, and:

    “BNP policy is it not? You seem to be such a fan of them. That’s me explained my statement about you”

    Hmmm no it’s not actually. So because I am questioning the double standards many left-wingers apply between the BNP and Islamofascism, in your mind I am suddenly a “BNP frontman” (your words) who wants “non-whites deported” (your words again). Thanks though for confirming you have nothing to back-up your earlier accusations :)

    As a gay person I don’t want the BNP in power. As someone with a middle-eastern partner I don’t want the BNP in power. But…I have much, much less concern about them than I do about Islamists sneaking in the backdoor, using “culture” as an excuse to hide behind when preaching homophobia and hatred, and who have bizarrely got left-wing people (who are *meant* to be for gay and women’s rights and democracy) supporting them and screaming “rAcIsT!!!” every time someone raises concerns (and there are many, serious concerns) about Islam and the west. Nick Griffin (the BNP leader) can’t appear in public without having eggs thrown at him (at the least) or protesting mobs trying to attack him. Yet we have several Islamic preachers of hate (one Londoner stands out in particular) calling for adulterers and homosexuals to be stoned to death under Sharia law, jews to be wiped out, and wanting the west destroyed, walking about freely. How can that be right?

    So to sum up, “BNP = bad” and “Islamic fundamentalism = very bad” butfor some reason we can scream bloody murder against the 1st but can’t mildly criticise the second, because if we do we’re “racist Nazis” in your eyes.

    The thing I find so funny is that you are gay but are trying to stifle criticism against people who wish death upon you.

  76. ^ The above post directed at Sister Mary ^

  77. Sister Mary Clarence-

    This is not an ‘attack’ on you, I just want to try and make you understand:

    Imagine you’re a female like me, and then look at how Muslim women are treated. Emmeline Pankhurst is spinning in her grave.

    My heart brakes every time I see one of the Muslim girls from my old school clad in black robes and headscarves married to their cousins….they were just like me at school.

    Muslims need to modernise but their religion started well after Christianity, in fact, their beliefs and ‘culture’ is presently how Christianity was in the 1400s- subjugating women, worshipping priests as though they are actually ‘divine’, praying all the time, murdering anyone who is ‘differnt’ i.e unmarried women, non-believers. See? ‘We’ did all of this then and they’re still doing it now. The timeline is the same, they’re about 600 years behind both in when their religion came to being AND how (some) act. So they won’t modernise unless we demand it.

    Surely you can see how this religion needs to change? It simply doesn’t fit with Western culture as it is now. Which is a shame because with most Muslims I know if you take the religion away that they’ve been indoctrinated with since birth, they’re actually very kind people with a brilliant sense of humour. It needs to modernise for our sakes and theirs.

    And as for you saying whites claim more benefits than anyone…….well since whites are the overwhelming majority in this country it stands to reason that they will. However if you do a proportinal head-count, as the Home Office report of 2008 stated, the ethnic groups more likely to claim benefits were Iranians and people of Jamaican descent.

    Any poll can fit any argument, but it seems you have a bit of a chip on your shoulder regarding white people.

    A bit of friendly advice: I think you’re on thin ice and you need to think a little before you speak.

  78. Excellent posts Lezabella and Bentley. Anyone who thinks Islam doesn’t represent a threat to the gay community is delusional. I hope the gay people who defend Muslims never find themselves in a situation where they need the same sort of support from them, because there’s no way they’ll get it.

    How did we get to the point in this country where you daren’t even criticise someone’s beliefs, no matter how heinous they may be, if they’re held by certain selected sections of the community? It’s like an horrific joke, I thought we fought off communism and thought control when the cold war ended. I’m all for laying into the BNP, they’re vile, but I also reserve the right to express my disgust at Islam.

  79. I’m going to be the first to apologise here – in the vain hope that that will allow me to occupy the moral high ground (written laughingly I hope you all understand). I think that I have completely misunderstood just about everyone who has commented here on this thread and misunderstood the import of every comment as well. I just reviewed the entire thread and realised that I really don’t have a handle on what any of you mean and are attempting to say.

    I think that I have probably misunderstood each and every one of you so please, all of you, accept my apologies if I have offended you and/or misinterpreted your comment and misunderstood what you were saying.

    Believe me, please, when I say that it’s not deliberate or wilfull but just that we all use our language in quite different ways and that at a site like this it can very hard indeed to interpret meaning despite the fact that we all write in English. Our common language is so flexible that it is sometimes very hard to discern what is actually meant from what one assumes, in the light of ones’ own prejudices, is meant.

    My apologies to anyone whom I might have offended at this thread – I had no intention to offend and I deeply regret the fact that some of you have been needlessly offended by my words. I’m sorry.

    I know that we can’t, we shouldn’t, all agree all of the time but, on the subject of the BNP I’m sure that the vast majority of us do agree. I don’t think that any of the commenters on this thread actually support the BNP and I think that we are merely argueing about shades of meaning rather than substantive matters.

    Can we not agree to disagree about the minutiae? Can we not agree to agree about the broad thrust of gay rights?

    I’m sorry if I offended anybody – believe me when I say that that was not my intention nor was it the meaning hidden behind behind my comments here.

    I offer my apologies to each and every one of you whom I may, inadvertently believe me, have offended. Mea culpa.

    Forgive me, please.

  80. Sister Mary Clarence 29 Aug 2009, 9:16am

    Lezabella, happy to discuss with you as you are a bit more rational that others posting on here at the moment. I have never said “And as for you saying whites claim more benefits than anyone”. I referred to those who are born here are opposed to immigrants. I was born here and therefore should I decide to jack in my job I’d be perfectly entitled to claim benefits, but if I’d just moved here from Poland for example I would have no recourse to public funds for quite some time and would have to show that I was able to support myself in the UK. Similarly asylum seekers, failed asylum seekers and people who have overstayed their visa and have no recourse to public funds (i.e. welfare benefits, public housing and asylum support).

    Please also check back over anything I have posted and find anywhere where I have raised the slightest word of support of Islam. The reality is that not everyone not of the UK is a Muslim and even of those that are they are not all extremists, or even practicing Muslims. In the same was as all Christians in the country are not all running round with barbed straps tied to their legs and flagellating themselves nightly.

    And yet, we have people on here trotting out the BNP line, and all the old clichés, citing extreme and uncommon situations as the norm to try to normalise their extreme reactions.

    The BNP is not the answer to Islamic extremist. However those running it are not stupid and there is a saying, “The enemy of my enemy is my friend”. The BNP will I’m sure be doing everything it can to court the gay vote on the basis that ‘Islam is a danger to us all’. Its that sort of attitude in Afghanistan that let to the Americans arming the Taliban, who subsequently turned on them (and us). I have no truck with religion of any sort to be frank (a crutch of the weak), but it will be a cold day in hell before I partner up with the BNP to do it down.

  81. Sister Mary Clarence 29 Aug 2009, 9:25am

    “The TV footage of dozens of ‘gay’ demonstrators flaunting their perversion in front of the world’s journalists showed just why so many ordinary people find these creatures so repulsive”.

    Nick Griffin following Admiral Duncan bombing

    “Rape is simply sex. Women enjoy sex, so rape cannot be such a terrible physical ordeal… [it] is like suggesting force-feeding a woman chocolate cake is a heinous offence.” –

    Nick Eriksen, the BNP’s London organiser

    Very inclusive!!

  82. Yes Mary, there are some bastards and homophobes in the BNP and some bastards and homophobes in Islam.

    Has anyone suggested otherwise?

    We just have a problem with the fact that it’s “cool” to bash the BNP but “racist” to bash Islamism that calls for adulterers and gays to be stoned to death.

    Nick Griffin calls for immigrants to be deported and now can’t appear in public without being attacked/egged/surrounded by protestors. Several islamic preachers of hate in London have called for the execution of adulterers and gays under Sharia law; for jews to be killed; for Israel to be “wiped off the map”; and called the west wicked and corrupt and called for it’s destruction; and yet they walk around freely, without the fear of the anti-fascists or left-wingers protesting against them. The protestors are too busy targetting people who criticise the threat of political Islam as “racists” or “bigots”.

    Double standards, anyone? Perhaps if you are not white or Christian you are free to say what you like.

    Just sheer bloody hypocrisy.

  83. I see nothing politically correct or – a ludicrious accusation – racist about SMC’s comments. The Taliban analogy with ref to ‘my enemy’s enemy is my friend’ was perfectly put SMC.

    Actually Bentley’s point has a grain of truth to it – those ‘gallant’ egg throwers, who must have felt pretty pleased with themselves, might consider trying the same stint with fanatical muslims who gather to hear one of their preachers at Speakers’ Corner in Hyde Park, who really do want genocide.

    The best way to expose Griffin and former neo-nazi Brons, is to let them be questioned, on the evidence for their claims. Throwing eggs will not stop 16 percent of the people who voted BNP in Barnsley, Burnley, Rotherham, from changing their minds. (e.g. let’s see the hard evidence, ARE immigrants actually getting preferential treatment in Dagenham?). [I could go on but it's saturday afternoon and i have better things to do]

  84. Sister Mary Clarence 29 Aug 2009, 3:35pm

    Adrian – they’ve been questionned and have been exposed, but it would appear some choose not to see:

    “There is a close analogy here with homosexuality. No one knows what causes some individuals to do what the majority of any healthy society places on a scale somewhere between distasteful and abhorrent, but some individuals will behave in that way whatever the bulk of popular opinion … [in] the present circumstances where such “alternative lifestyle choices” are presented as valid – even superior – by the most powerful behavioural modification programme in human history”.

    journals.democraticunderground.com/top10/244

    Griffin and the nazi BNP have also denounced homosexuality as “form of behavioural deviancy” and “not a valid lifestyle choice”. He claims the BNP speaks for “the majority of the population” who, he says, believe “homosexuality is wrong” and that it “needs to be pushed humanely but firmly back into the closet”. Griffin warns that if gays continue to “press their aims further” there will be an “almighty backlash” which will result in the imprisonment of all homosexuals.

    (‘Putting the record straight’, Nick Griffin, Identity [BNP magazine], December 2003).

    “There’s plenty of people making soap operas that present homosexuality as a wonderful lifestyle, which as a matter of fact it very often isn’t. But plenty of people promoting it are heterosexual. So if you fined or even imprisoned a BBC filmmaker for breaching those laws, then it’s not persecuting a homosexual necessarily, it’s persecuting someone for breaking those laws”.

    observer.guardian.co.uk/magazine/story/0,11913,783675,00.html

    (some twisted method in their madness at least)

    The nazi BNP’s Director of Publicity (and former head of Young BNP) Mark Collett calls gay and lesbians: “AIDS Monkeys”, “bum bandits” and “faggots” and said the idea of homosexuality was a “sickening thought”. Also, that AIDS is a “friendly disease because blacks, drug users and gays have it”.

    A BNP spokesman told the PinkNews.co.uk that homosexuality is a disease. This was the BNP spokesman said:

    “Some unfortunate people suffer from homosexuality so we will just have to tolerate them. If I was one I would be ashamed and would remain celibate”.

    (http://www.pinknews.co.uk/news/articles/2005-2658.html)Hopefully we all know where we stand.

  85. @ Sister Mary Clarence

    You are no better then the BNP; you are just as racist, the only difference is that your racism only includes white and asian people – as if that makes it any better. In fact you are worse then the BNP – at least they are upfront about thier racism.

    So instead of trying to ignore the issue, why not rehabilitate yourself a little and educate everyone here on what made you a racist.

    Answer:

    1) Why, according to you, all the people in Bermondsey are Nazis purely because it is largely a white area? Being white = being racist? Does it? And don’t give us any crap about the BNP and NF because that area has for the past 26 years repeatedly elected a bisexual Lib Dem MP as their representative and has never had any official from the NF or BNP elected at any level.

    So why are all of these white people Nazis in your book?

    2) Why, in your humble racist opinion, can Asian people not be British.

    Go on you racist coward, explain yourself.

  86. I thought SMC had made it clear that not all muslims are ansians and not all asians are extremists; sounds fine by me.

    On the point of mark collett – this video by russell brand wonderfully exposed the BNP’s current director of publicity:

    http:// www. youtube. com/watch?v=fGDFFQxawxI&feature=related

    Don’t be fooled into thinking ‘at least the bnp won’t kill everyone off’ – if you can stand listening to the whole 25 minutes of this moron’s cringemaking statements, collett invites the cameraman to film him naked at some point.

  87. @ AdrianT

    I dont what comment thread you have been reading but you are way off about Sister Mary Clarence and “all muslims are ansians and not all asians are extremists.”

    I am referring to her earlier claim that Asian people are not British, as well as her claim that an entire London borough are nazis solely because it is majority white; I made quite clear above, Adrian.

    She refuses to explain here racism.

  88. Sister Mary Clarence 29 Aug 2009, 8:38pm

    On the contrary Kimm, you have refused to identify from where you are getting that I think Asians aren’t British – I’m sure it would only take a second to cut and paste it from whereever I purportedly said it.

    Also, just to clarify Bermondsey is one of 8 areas (or districts) in the London Borough of Southwark. As the article I highlighted points out, the likes of the BNP are well known to focus on young people in the area, who are often disillusioned with society in general and therefore an easy target.

    Incredibly odd kimm you’re not familiar with the BNP links with Bermondsey. I think most of us who live in the borough (Southwark that is) are aware of it.

    Cherry picking a few lines from the Independent:

    Bermondsey is renowned for its tight-knit, white working-class community, built around the docks. Although the docks have long gone, the sense of identity among locals remains strong. Even strangers from the south of the borough are regarded with suspicion.

    Bermondsey is also a notorious British National Party stronghold. Two years ago a local college introduced surveillance cameras and security guards after a spate of racist attacks on students. Setting up a ‘coloured church’, as the locals call it, in this area was not perhaps the smartest of ideas.

    Terri Skates, the landlady at the nearby Southwark Park Tavern, admits she was surprised when the African church moved in: ‘It’s a very strange choice, as this is not a racially tolerant area. It is still predominantly white. Not that there has been any trouble – so long as the regulars stay inside and they stay outside.’

    ‘The regulars’ are all men, all white, all in their late fifties. One propping up the bar is telling his mate how ‘one of those blacks’ came into the pub last week. ‘He looked like that one out of Desmond’s,’ he says, mimicking a swaggering walk.

    This year alone, Southwark council has issued nine High Court injunctions, many against residents in the Bermondsey area, as part of its get-tough measure on racial harassment. The few black families who do live in the area have been offered escorts to take their children to school, personal alarms and mobile phones. The incidents range from graffiti on the walls and verbal abuse to physical attack.

    ‘These people don’t come from this area. Bermondsey has always been free of them,’ says Mrs Cooper. ‘If they toed the line, nobody would bother.’

    There we have it kimm the local landlady said it in a nutshell, ‘not a racially tolerant area’, although, somewhat different to your interpretation of what I actually said – but hey, lets not muddy the water with facts. Interesting as well that she considers black kids having to be escorted to school, verbal abuse and physical attacks to be not any ‘trouble’

    Just one other thing though, when did I ever (and I mean EVER) call anyone a Nazi?

  89. Sister Mary Clarence-

    I agree with your stance on the BNP, there shouldn’t be a notion that ‘the BNP is the lesser of two evils compared to extremist Islam'; it’s quite clear to me that people who have this attitude need to take note of the point that BOTH are evil.

  90. d’oh!

  91. double d’oh!!!

  92. fab kimmmmy 30 Aug 2009, 3:44am

    sister,

    None of what you say is true. None of it.

    Here is the clarification for you, yet again:

    When told that you saying “all these born and bred Brits ” are too good to work and hoover up benefits that are half paid for by immigrants without a scrap of evidence was essentially a racist canard you responded with this:
    “How’s that a racist statement, then Kimm? “born and bred Brits” can refer to all manner of ethnicities, although it would appear that you preceive it to only refer to one, and I’m going to hazard a guess that it would be a white one?

    Who exactly do you think gets the lions share of the DWP’s £120 billion budget then – Leicester’s Asian community?”

    Clearly you are saying that “Leicester’s Asian community” are not British, not to be included in your “born and bred Brit” canard and clearly you identify the reason that you consider that they are not British is because they are Asian.

    But you know all of this dont you SMC, you are just playing games and trying to avoid the glare of your obvious racism.

  93. fab kimmmy 30 Aug 2009, 3:53am

    ** Sister, I was born and bred in the Blue.

    That’s why I know you are full of it.

    That’s why I take personal umbrage with a lying racist like you saying that we are all Nazis. I am openly gay and have been since I was 13 and aside from the expected remarks by some I get EVERYWHERE I am fully accepted and left alone.

    Do some support the BNP here in Bermondsey? Yeah, sure. A 100,000,000 people voted for them after all.

    But, have they ever voted them in at any level in my area? Nope. Not once sister.

    As a matter fact I don’t recall the BNP ever standing in Bermondsey, I have seen the NF on ballot cards but I don’t recall the BNP. And the NF don’t get enough votes to get the deposit back.

    And we have had a bisexual Lib Dem MP for 26 years. **

  94. fab kimmmy 30 Aug 2009, 3:55am

    ** And if Bermondsey was really as you say “a notorious British National Party stronghold” then the people here would have voted them in to office; at least even one councillor; but no, not even one, not ever. Never Its a lie.

    ** So put that in your racist pipe and smoke it **

  95. fab kimmmy 30 Aug 2009, 4:01am

    *** And on this you try and slime your nasty racist way out. Where did I do say that you bleat. Here: ***

    “It might be a bit retro, but I’m thinking white cargo pants for summer and a light canvas shoe, for when we’re goose stepping through Bermondsey”

    But sister, u know damn well you did and exactly what u meant by it. And so does any normal person. ***

    All you as you have as some of evidence that whole of Bermondsey are goose stepping racist Nazis is comes from the opinion of one pub landlord who is not even from the bloody area???!

  96. fab kimmmy 30 Aug 2009, 4:05am

    ** And I can say it is all rubbish

    You can always see black kids, and Asian kids strolling without a care all the time in Bermondsey-

    And thats day and night –

    so the rubbish about them having to be “escorted” in and out of school is really just some irresponsible hysterical nonsense.

    This is an area in 2009 with a bisexual Lib Dem MP in South London we are talking about, not Little Rock 1957 – if it were really true it would be front page news. And as your “coloured” church as the locals call it” – it is just pure ******** lie you made up in your racist imagination.You really seem to have a huge chip on your shoulder; you are clearly just a white and asian hating racist ***

    Your real problem with Bermondsey is summed up with your description of it being a “tight-knit, white working-class community” that’s what you don’t like.

    Well tough. It is what it is. __

  97. fab kimmmy 30 Aug 2009, 4:05am

    It was idiots who think like you who marched through Bermondsey in ’92 for no reason at all under the blatantly trouble making and violent banner of “under attack we fight back” and throw bricks and bottles at locals and the police, smashed up local cars and peoples windows. I know, I saw it. So if some locals in a pub remember that and are still angry at that mass attack, I can understand that. It means nothing.

    (And just to clarify, Bermondsey is a ward for election, Southwark and Bermondsey.)

    So now you have been shown your statement, yet again, when are you going to answer the questions:

    Answer:

    1) Why you really think the people of Bermondsey are all Nazis, when they havent ever voted in any party other then Labour or Liberal? (MP)

    2) Why, in your humble racist opinion, can Asian people not be British.

    So come on then, you racist coward, tell us the real truth on your opinions.

  98. fab kimmmy 30 Aug 2009, 4:07am

    and that should be 1,000,000 not 100

  99. Sister Mary Clarence/

    Finally kimm and fab kimmmy expose themselves – just another troll unworthy of being answered. Why do people like him bother? What is it in their psyches that causes them to latch onto one particular individual and attempt to destroy them? Do you think that it’s some sort of power-play – some sort of aggressive criminal behaviour played out on the relative safety of the Net where they can’t be found out?

    I think that this guy is dangerous and, if I knew his real email address, I’d report him to the police for attacking you in the way that he has done.

    There’s nothing that you can write here that can persuade him to behave himself and talk like a grown-up adult because he’s actually a psychopath who preys on women. He’s trying to dominate you, belittle you and make you afraid in order to bolster his own sense of self-worth and validate his own views by abusing those whom he sees as less powerfull than he.

    It’s a well-recognised position used by such idiots all over the blogosphere. People like kimm and fab kimmmy, actually the same person, can’t comment without having something, or someone, to attack. They use the Web to validate their own anger and impotence and they attack others, usually women or those commenters whom they perceive to be women, in order to demonstrate their own warped masculinity.

    Usually, had I not just written that last paragraph, the kimm, fab kimmmy, character would claim to be a woman and go on to claim that you were not and that you were masquerading at this site as something you were not – projection of self, ones own behaviours, onto others, quite clearly.

    However, in this case I think that we may be dealing with the composite Skinner personality for the kimm construct comes straight out of the Exodus play-book about the disruption of Gay sites and the sowing of constructive (as they would see it) dissension.

    I’m probably wrong – I often am – but it just feels like that to me.

  100. “because he’s actually a psychopath who preys on women. He’s trying to dominate you, belittle you and make you afraid in order to bolster his own sense of self-worth and validate his own views by abusing those whom he sees as less powerfull than he….I think that this guy is dangerous and, if I knew his real email address, I’d report him to the police for attacking you in the way that he has done.” – John M J

    Wow, John. Steady. That’s pretty strong. And bizarre. And without foundation. I don’t know “kimm” or anything about him other than what’s been posted in this comments thread, but I don’t see what you’ve described. I see someone trying to rationally challenge Sister Mary’s contradictory, offensive, and often incorrect statements.

    You’ve misdirected an earlier rant at the wrong person apparently and openly admitted so – I don’t wish to be rude but perhaps you’re misunderstanding people in this thread.

    I will agree a string of posts in a row at 4am by “fab kimmmy” are a little odd – only explanation I can think of is someone impersonating kimm OR old kimm has got in from a drunk night out ;)

    Any rational person who has read this entire comments must surely conclude Sister Mary is the one in the wrong here.

    And as for your comments, Mary, about racism against black people in that borough, perhaps you’re right. Of course there are white racists. There always has been and sadly there always will. There are also a couple of “no go” areas for white people in London because of both black and asian racist attacks against white people. There are two sides to this coin and racism works both ways. Both must be condemned and I happily condemn all forms of racism whether white against black, or black/asian vs white, or even asian vs black (which I know also happens*). You on the other hand only seem to be bothered about racist whites. As a couple of other people have pointed out, you seem to have a chip on your shoulder against white people. I don’t know why, maybe you’ve suffered racism in the past, but I do know that it is wrong to perputate the cycle of hate and also to label whole areas of white people as “racist”.

    *Example: “A teenage racist stabbed a man in the neck for dating an Asian woman and sneered: ‘Blacks should stick to their own.’
    Zounid Miah, 19, plunged the blade into Rahman Ahmed’s (corr) neck and back three times in front of horrified commuters who tried to stop the knifeman.
    Mr Ahmed, who was dating a Bangladeshi woman, was rushed to hospital where he underwent emergency surgery, Southwark Crown Court heard. ” Source: http://www.eastlondonadvertiser.co.uk

  101. Sister Mary Clarence 30 Aug 2009, 2:56pm

    Kimm, how very selective of you, to have picked up my comments as supposedly racist. However, seemingly you have not noticed that they were pointing out the nonsense of the comment before mine.

    Also raised in Bermondsey, but didn’t know it wasn’t a borough? How odd? Now trying to wheedled out of it, having googled it, saying that it is a ward – Bermondsey and Southwark.

    I do come from the area though, and unlike you (born and bred!!!). I, like everyone else living in the area, am very clear about the names used here. Nobody EVER refers to the ‘ward’ as Bermondsey and Southwark. Few people would really know to talk in terms of wards anyway. The area in the north of Southwark between Elephant and Rotherhithe is call Bermondsey and it in the borough of Southwark. ‘Bermondsey and Southwark’ – I’ve never heard such crap.

    You think someone stops us on the street for direction, “Can you tell me where I am exactly?”

    “Exactly? Why yes, you’re in Bermondsey and Southwark!”

    I don’t think so

    The likes on Bede House and others work extensively in the area to tackle racist often instigated over many years by various fascist organisations. If you read my comments properly (which I think be both know you have done really anyway) they refer to the BNP goose-stepping through Bermondsey, it didn’t specifically mention the locals doing so.

    I will again ask you to identify where I have called anyone a Nazi – it is getting a bit tiresome having to keep asking.

    As for you clarification of why I think Asians can’t be British, ‘Clearly you are saying that “Leicester’s Asian community” are not British’ – am I indeed. James in his previous posting suggested liberal minded folk might be shocks speaking to some of the ‘recent arrivals’ in Leicester. Leicester has an Asian Community of just under 30% of the population against total minority ethnic community of 36% (according to the 2001 census) therefore I think we can safely assume James was taking a dig at Leicester’s Asian community and even assuming that all of the Asian community in Leicester were first generation immigrants, which OBVIOUSLY they are not, they certainly would not account for a £120 billion DWP benefits budget.

    Clearly Asians just like any other ethnicity can be, and are, British.

    Been busy googling a bit more kimm, and tripped over some more fascist crap in Bermondsey. Frankly with all the googling you’re doing, don’t know how you’re missing it – NF this time rather than BNP:
    “The National Front picked Bermondsey for a desperate attempt at a show of strength in London on Saturday 7 April but only succeeded in demonstrating once again its own pitiful weakness.
    The NF started out with the indignity of the police ordering the removal of its banner with its illegal wording. The march then set off with a mere 13 activists. Although several more joined on the way, it was down to 50 at the end, after a group looked at their watches and departed, clearly to go to the Millwall match. Most of the time it was hard even to see the fascists because of the way the police tightly surrounded them.
    Before the Bermondsey march, the fascists had admitted to the local press that its influence in London was dwindling and the march would be “a last ditch attempt to keep Bermondsey white”. It was counting on raising support from residents on the rundown Bermondsey housing estates, where some serious pockets of racism remain.
    Throughout the 1950s and 1960s, successive Labour councils practised a “sons and daughters” housing policy, giving flats to young people near their families. This effectively excluded anyone from even a couple of miles outside their area, never mind people of Afro or Asian origin.”

    I’ve got about another 23000 articles on the subject, so we can go on as long as you want to on this one.

  102. “The march then set off with a mere 13 activists. Although several more joined on the way, it was down to 50 at the end, after a group looked at their watches and departed, clearly to go to the Millwall match!”

    Well, hardly sounds like the area is full of frothing-at-the-mouth, jackboot-wearing BNP racists, as you hinted at earlier. You labelled that entire area and it’s white population racist, which is now disproved by one of your very own quotes.

    There are white racists, asian racists, black racists and I’m willing to bet there are separate “no go areas” for each of those races, especially in the poorer boroughs of London. So what point exactly are you trying to make?

  103. Sister Mary Clarence 30 Aug 2009, 4:09pm

    “You labelled that entire area and it’s white population racist”

    When?

    “Well, hardly sounds like the area is full of frothing-at-the-mouth, jackboot-wearing BNP racists, as you hinted at earlier”

    Article said:

    “It was counting on raising support from residents on the rundown Bermondsey housing estates, where some serious pockets of racism remain.”

    Well Bentley, I guess you must have missed the bit above. I wonder how many people reading this actually have the BNP/NF organising demonstrations in their home areas in the hope of picking up support from estates with ‘serious pockets of racism’.

    Racism exists in many sections of society (as you are too happy to point out). You can I am sure dredge up stories about ethnic minorities being racist towards white people, and where they are genuine, I am happy to agree, it is not right.

    But in the same way the BNP’s racist policies towards ethnic minorities are not right either. Two wrongs do not make a right. No one race is superior to any other and a person’s race is not the sole factor that defines them. Most people are just trying to live their lives as best they can without harming others. They should be allowed to do so without being beaten or abused by anyone.

    I hope that some day you and you BNP cronies can respect that.

  104. fab kimmmy 30 Aug 2009, 7:01pm

    @ John M.J

    Another biazrre rant, really bizarre. And yes I am woman, and I tell you what, give me your real email address and name and I’ll report you to the police because I really do you think you are dangerous. You appear to be insane and fixated on me for no rational reason.

    @ Sister Mary Clarence

    Every time you open your mouth you lie.

    Do you even know where the Blue is? Or the Borough come to that? Simon Hughes, our bisexual MP for 26 years is the MP for North Southwark and Bermondsey. I have never haeard so much crap out of one person with such a huge chip on thier shoulder.

    You are even going to question where I was born and f***ing live!!!! You muppet.

    You keep on with your lies even though it is up there in black and white for anyone to see:

    “It might be a bit retro, but I’m thinking white cargo pants for summer and a light canvas shoe, for when we’re goose stepping through Bermondsey – its ideal because it works for boys and girls!!”

    No mention of the BNP – just Bermondsey, and now you say it was directed against the local? What a lair. Who was it directed against then? The buildings? Buildings goose step and are Nazis too now are they?

    “Clearly Asians just like any other ethnicity can be, and are, British.”

    You slither away from your orignal racist contention, again, there for anyone to see, that you didnt include Asians in your idea of “born and bred” Britons. Again, you just a desperate racist, caught out trying to back peddle.

    And as for the lie you leave on about the march into Bermondsey – I dont need to google FA, I was there sweetheart because it came past my house, as did the bricks and bottle – where you there?

    Again, your bizarre story is just another fantastic lie; the march was INTO Bermondsey by the so-called antifa for no reason and who were around 300 strong; one guy from the BNP – an Australian called Steve Tydanl was there – not the NF- with a megaphone and about 5 people around him, as the locals had told him to **** off; the Millwall match had been CANCELLED that day; the antifa were penned into Southwark park for thier own saftey after showering locals with abuse, bricks, bottles and burning the union flag; all hell broke loss when the locals and the Millwall crowd finally had enough of the damage and provocation by the so-called antifa and pushed the police out of the way and dealt with them themsleves.

    In all about 600+ were involved, both the antifa thugs and the local defenders.

    I saw it all. Every detail, every minute. And you have articles!!

    (Though actually I do have the original local newspapers somewhere with some of the story and the Southwark News carried a photo of the so-called antifa burning the national flag.)

    Even your claim to have “23000 articles” on that day is clearly just another casual lie- you have really counted them have you? And there really is 2300 articles on that day is there?

    What crap.

    You keep posting these unsubstantiated stories and I’ll keep posting the truth you racist liar.

    @ John M.J

    Another biazrre rant, really bizarre. I tell you what, give me your real email address and name and I’ll report you to the police because I really do you think you are dangerous. You appear to be insane and fixated on me for no rational reason.

    @ Sister Mary Clarence

    Every time you open your mouth you lie.

    Do you even know where the Blue is? Or the Borough come to that? Simon Hughes, our bisexual MP for 26 years is the MP for North Southwark and Bermondsey. I have never haeard so much crap out of one person with such a huge chip on thier shoulder.

    You are even going to question where I was born and f***ing live!!!! You muppet.

    You keep on with your lies even though it is up there in black and white for anyone to see:

    “It might be a bit retro, but I’m thinking white cargo pants for summer and a light canvas shoe, for when we’re goose stepping through Bermondsey – its ideal because it works for boys and girls!!”

    No mention of the BNP – just Bermondsey, and now you say it was directed against the local? What a lair. Who was it directed against then? The buildings? Buildings goose step and are Nazis too now are they?

    “Clearly Asians just like any other ethnicity can be, and are, British.”

    You slither away from your orignal racist contention, again, there for anyone to see, that you didnt include Asians in your idea of “born and bred” Britons. Again, you just a desperate racist, caught out trying to back peddle.

    And as for the lie you leave on about the march into Bermondsey – I dont need to google FA, I was there sweetheart because it came past my house, as did the bricks and bottle – where you there?

    Again, your bizarre story is just another fantastic lie; the march was INTO Bermondsey by the so-called antifa for no reason and who were around 300 strong; one guy from the BNP – an Australian called Steve Tydanl was there – not the NF- with a megaphone and about 5 people around him, as the locals had told him to **** off; the Millwall match had been CANCELLED that day; the antifa were penned into Southwark park for thier own saftey after showering locals with abuse, bricks, bottles and burning the union flag; all hell broke loss when the locals and the Millwall crowd finally had enough of the damage and provocation by the so-called antifa and pushed the police out of the way and dealt with them themsleves.

    In all about 600+ were involved, both the antifa thugs and the local defenders.

    I saw it all. Every detail, every minute. And you have articles!!

    (Though actually I do have the original local newspapers somewhere with some of the story and the Southwark News carried a photo of the so-called antifa burning the national flag.)

    Even your claim to have “23000 articles” on that day is clearly just another casual lie- you have really counted them have you? And there really is 2300 articles on that day is there?

    What crap.

    You keep posting these unsubstantiated stories and I’ll keep posting the truth you racist liar.

  105. Sister Mary Clarence 31 Aug 2009, 11:44am

    kimm, what a talent you have for reversing everything I say, and just slightly misunderstanding or misreading it. 23000 articles on racism in Bermondsey, not 23000 articles on a pathetic little non-event fascist march obviously. How could you write 23000 articles on some laughable little show that did nothing more than reveal how out of touch racist extremists now are with everyday people? Their little ‘event’ did make a few headlines with reports of how humiliating it was for them in not getting anyone to show up in an area where they had laid the groundwork for years. Further proof surely if any is needed of a bankrupt ideology.

    You seem very keen to highlight Simon Hughes being gay and the local MP for 26 years. Just to clarify, he has never faced a general election since coming out as gay in 2006 (but of course you know that being a ‘local’). Having been there at the NF non-event, sorry event, you’ll no doubt have heard the small group of about 50 racist Millwall supporters out on the streets outside the ground shouting racial abuse at passing black people, who actually reserved most of their bile for your ‘local’ beloved gay Lib Dem MP, Simon Hughes.

    The anti-fascist marches in the area to be fair do seem to draw a bit more of a crowd (about 350 compared to the what was it again, oh yeah 13. I understand obviously with your political views these are probably going to grate on you a little. Well …. good!

    Really confused by who ‘local defenders’ are? Are they people playing for the local football team? I don’t think any of the Millwall players got bitch-slapped by the anti-facists. Perhaps you can clarify?

    Anyway further evidence of the changing faces of the BNP. The Muslim faith makes up about 6% of the community (according to the 2001 census). Hardly a stronghold for Islam I’m sure most people would agree. Yet at the start of this thread it was all about preventing the rise of Islamic fundamentalism. The BNP is all about using any and every means possible to promote an agenda of hatred.

    One last thing:

    “They were unlikely scenes for a quiet corner of the English countryside more used to fetes and flower festivals as two extremes of the British political spectrum invaded a tiny Derbyshire village yesterday
    Over the thick hedge was the 10th annual gathering of the British National Party – the Red, White and Blue festival – underway this weekend on private farmland owned by a supporter between the villages of Denby and Codnor in the Amber Valley.
    “Last year there was goose-stepping down this lane at 2am and shouts of ‘Heil Hitler’,” said Mrs Osbourne”

    guardian.co.uk, Saturday 15 August 2009 19.02 BST

    My reference to goose stepping was merely pointing out the types of activities you facists seem to enjoy at your own party functions.

    “Ohhhh, SMC called me a Nazi!! Oohhhh, how cruel! Totally uncalled for!!!”

    Please! If you’re goose stepping down country lanes in the Amber Valley at 2 o’clock in the morning yelling “Heil Hitler”, I think you’ll find some people might make that association anyway without the need for me to say a word.

  106. fabb kimmy 31 Aug 2009, 2:37pm

    @

    Sister Mary Clarence

    You really do live in a fanstasy world of your own making.

    That “pathetic little non-event fascist march” in ’93 was actually recorded as the worst violence in living memory in Bermondsey, quite something in the home of Millwall. And it was all the fault of the so-called antifa. The images of masses of people marching into our back yards and hurling abuse, brick and bottles at us is still strong. You really don’t know your arse from your elbow. You aint got a F***ing clue of what you are on about. You were not there.I love how you think you are going to question me on where I was f***ing born, bred and have lived all my life you bizarre little fascist racist.

    As for Simon Hughes all the locals knew he was gay about 3 years after his first election; it was no secret, and he used to (and still) does go to pubs and do his shopping with a boyfriend; everyone knew.

    But then as a non-local you wouldn’t know that would you? Only what you found out on google, the first report of which says this:

    “His sexuality had long been known in his constituency and was a non-issue but he was now trying to put “political spin” on it, she claimed.”

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4649266.stm

  107. fabb kimmy 31 Aug 2009, 2:38pm

    He is a good constituency MP, the best and has helped many, many people in Bermondsey; and a lot of people wont forget how much he put his life on the line to help get the murderers of young Jamie Robe. His seat is safe.

    You are full of crap. Take your 2300 articles crap – again have you really counted them or, as with everything you say (like being packed into a crate) is it just a casual lie? But one thing is true, you are quite obviously obsessed with Bermondsey; why don’t you try living here for a bit instead of reading the racist poison you thrive on?

    And of course you end with the projectionist claim that I am in the BNP now, just because I am from a majority white area that you have dubbed as Nazi, purely because it is a majority white area and you don’t think Asians can be British.

    It is you who is the racist sweethear, and some, And what a huge chip you have on your shoulder. Bet it gets knocked off someday.

  108. Sister Mary Clarence 31 Aug 2009, 6:58pm

    Ooohh, kimm, no word on the goose stepping I see!

    As for being obsessed with Bermondsey, I made a small off the cuff remark about the BNP goose stepping along its streets (although apparently this was utterly unjust as the only goose-step along the streets of the Amber Valley.

    What’s the ‘Heil Hitler’ business all about then, as well kimm?

    Still waiting for an answer on:

    1) When I called anyone a Nazi?

    2) When I labelled the entire area and it’s white population racist?

    3) Who exactly the BNP is trying to protect from what by marching along the streets of Bermondsey, when the Muslim population there is relately small with no obvious signs of Muslim extremism, and when apparently the BNP is here to save us from the perils of Muslim extremism?

    Could you maybe focus and come back to me on these points?

  109. fabb kimmy 1 Sep 2009, 2:50pm

    You know what you said and why you said and so does everyone else.

    You are a duplicitous, lying nasty piece of racist work.

  110. Pumpkin Pie 2 Sep 2009, 2:01pm

    Good job keeping this BNP supporter in check for so long, SMC.

    I just wanted to ask kimmy one thing, seeing as how this thread has wandered quite some distance from the original issue – what exactly makes it moral or fair for any political group to restrict membership based on factors such as race?

  111. fabb kimmy 2 Sep 2009, 7:56pm

    @ Pumpkin Pie

    You are the BNP supporter, clearly, backing a blatant racist who thinks Asian people cannot be British.

  112. Pumpkin Pie 3 Sep 2009, 5:44pm

    Do you even have an answer to that question?

    I’m not interested in getting involved in this argument. The two of you are clearly far more knowledgeable and passionate on the current topic than I.

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