There are a few half-hearted ‘Use A Condom’ ads around but they are patenly ignored. It’s the same old story-it cannot happen to me. My Partner and I used to have to bully our close (young) friends to take precautions when ‘Gay Clubbing’ in London. The HIV/AIDS crisis may not get any better so lets hope also it dose not get worse.
Great Article, sadly this wont get through to the ones that needs to read it here in (N.Z.) we are also facing a rise in HIV cases and steadly growing and all I can say is “Its time to stop fooling ourselves”
It seems that the best approach would be to give HIV meds to all HIV+ individuals. Such individuals become massively less infectious. On a ‘herd’ level this approach is as effective as a vaccine.
But nothing will change until the stigma against HIV+ people among other gay men is lifted. I am openly HIV+, and I find that some gay men will simply not speak to me because of that. Other’s have specifically defriended me on Facebook.
FANTASTIC article. It’s about bloody time we stopped pussyfooting around and reminded people that HIV is no walk in the park – I’ve been living with for nearly four years. The ignorance among sexually active gay men about HIV and the routes of transmission are astounding – we have a gay village in Manchester plastered with posters, condoms, and magazines telling the community about HIV and yet the numbers of new infections are still on the rise! HIV has dropped off the political agenda – it’s no longer “sexy” – and those agencies charged (and often overpaid) to provide those messages are too scared to get out after dark with a packet of condoms; too involved with self promotion to provide information at the very time and place where it is needed. All too often the cry goes up,” We’ve tried that and it doesn’t work”. Well do it again and again and again until you get it right. Education is cyclic, not once for all. Do it again. Keep on doing it until the message is so ingrained you make yourself redundant, but keep on doing it. In the early days of the AIDS crisis we had sit in demonstrations, chained ourselves to railings, screamed that we were dying and we would not stop until someone, somewhere listened to us. Show me the railings and pass me the padlock and I’ll gladly chain myself to them if just one person knows that a condom will save their life.
This article is nothing but a personal vendetta. PEP has an important part in HIV prevention – does the author want the punishment for exposure to HIV to be HIV infection?
Furthermore, if he really cared about controlling HIV in gay men rather than pursuing his personal hatred of THT, he’d be writing about how to reduce the number of undiagned infections in the UK, as this group of individuals are the main driving force of the epidemic.
Furthermore, he peddles lies and untruths about the efficacy of HIV treatment and its tolerability and harks back to a mythical golden age of HIV prevention that never existed.
And please tell me, since when has that TV doctor and Paul Burston been authorities on HIV prevention?
I’ve said it before on here: The only time gay men sit up and notice is when their friends around them start dropping like flies. I saw it happen in the 80′s and by the grace of God figured it out before I caught it. Gay men are notoriously promiscuous and often irresponsible, unfortunately a lethal combination.
I cannot understand the authors vendetta against PEP. It has the potential to prevent infection with HIV should exposure to the virus occur. It can be highly effective if taken soon enough after exposure. Indeed there are few reported infections if taken promptly, properly and there are no further subsequent exposures.
The provision of PEP after sexual exposure to HIV makes perfect public health sense and it is important that individuals at risk of HIV know of its availability
Great article. I am a 37 gay man who grew up hearing this simple and effective message: “use a condom”. Around 2000 I was sickened to see THT change its advertising campaigns to “well you might want to use a condom but it’s your choice”. Shame on them. They have betrayed a genearation. Shame on people who make and watch bareback porn. And shame on the owners of gay saunas who show bareback porn in their cinema rooms. Our culture needs to change and quickly.
Get a grip. You all naively think that health promotion has more power to change behaviour one way or the other than it has. it seems to me that coercive health promotion imploring us to do this or do that is championed largely by those who find it easy, or desire to comply, or who already do what it is percieved that health promotion is imploring us to do, or who have failed and wish to stop others making their mistake. Simple soloutions for a black and white world. The world is not black and white and behaviour and motivation is complex and not everyone is just like you. This article is all over the place and completely paranoid. HIV health promotion to gay and bisexual men in the UK is honest and sets out what it is trying to do and the ethical postion it takes, it is also constantly being debated. It seem to me that this author would have them coercing everyone and removing personal choices. Why not take it one more logical step and suggest gay men stop having sex completely or make it illegal. I remember what that was like and how much respect I had for those arguing for it. There are plenty of people who suggest that should be the case and justify it on public health grounds. There is a value to sex without condoms or people wouldn’t do it and people attempt to minimise the risks they take. That is the real world, a world with risk and it seems sensible that health promotion addresses this real world and adresses different messages to different people depending on where they are. We are not all homogenous, one size does not fit all and I don’t need to or will not desire to or be able to always use a condom in every situation.
No surprise to see the HIV sector trolls out in force dismissing a thought-provoking article that at least everyone else appears to acknowledge needed to be said. I have read the article twice through, MCC, and the author’s vendetta clearly lies against the way your organizations have been pushing PEP as a quick-fix for pre-planned unsafe sex instead of for accidents like condoms breaking, as it was originally mandated. The author makes the clear distinction between the two, particularly the impact that its encouraged use as a “morning after pill” has had on increasing HIV rates even higher since PEP is known not to have a 100% success rate. Then there is the burden that each course of PEP imposes, at £600+ a time, on an already severely cash-strapped health service. To be pushing such an insane policy is a gross abuse of THT’s public service mandate; that it receives funding from PEP’s manufacturer only emphasizes this scandal that has been occurring under our noses these last few years. PEP has its place where accidental exposure to HIV is concerned, as the article correctly says, but gay men are being actively encouraged by these charities to use it as a cure-all for premeditated “unsafe sex” – it is there in black and white on the latest PEP advert! Is it because they have a lucrative portfolio of support services to flog on the back of PEP failing to HIV halt transmissions? Perhaps they just do not realize how transparent their policies have become, not to mention the smears and desperate counter-attacks aimed at anyone who dares raises the alarm have become. MCC and David, the public pays you to treat and halt the spread of HIV – not to spend your time attacking critics of your policies on news sites!!
Point of Information: The claim that “As far back as 2005, a Sigma Research survey of sexually active gay men found that half had sought PEP following unprotected sex” is wildly wrong.
In the GMSS 2003 survey 1.0% of men said they had EVER tried to get PEP. In GMSS 2005 this rose to 1.4%. In GMSS 2007 it had risen again to 3.4% said they have ever tried to get PEP (212 of 6205 men asked). The proportion who actually used it is smaller again.
Hi Ford, here is my source for the Sigma Research claim that you refute:
I spent several months researching my article and cross-checking it as I knew it would come under a good deal of scrutiny. The men I refer to in the article concerns specifically the minority who had already sought out PEP within the wider survey of 16,000 or so gay men who responded to your survey, hence why your figures differ so widely. I should have made this clearer, but regardless of which it is no secret that PEP is today being prolifically prescribed for repeat and reckless users.
For added clarification, the Aidsmap story states:
From this data, it can be ascertained that PEP was in fact prescribed to all (i.e. 100%) of the 1.4% of the thousands of participants in Sigma’s 2005 survey who said they had sought it out following premeditated risky sex; a third by those who knew their partner was positive before engaging in unsafe sex, the rest by partners of HIV-positive men who disclosed their status after unsafe sex. The sample size may be small, but the fact that ALL men sought our PEP following premiditated unsafe sex is a damning statistic, and one that is hardly likely to have improved substantially in the wake of THT and GMFA’s subsequent aggressive blitzing of gay media with PEP campaigns…
“To gain a better understanding of the PEP seeking experiences of gay men, Sigma Research conducted in-depth interviews with 30 men who completed the questionnaire and said they’d sought PEP.
“Half of these men (15) said that they’d sought PEP following unprotected sex with a man they knew was HIV-positive. Only five men knew that their partner was HIV-infected before the sexual encounter. In the other ten cases the men sought PEP because the men disclosed their HIV-positive status after unprotected sex.”
It’s unhappy times for the HIV prevention charities isn’t it? And about time too. They have undoubtedly failed a generation of gay men. For how many more years do we have to see new infections rising before we actually stop and ask ‘What the hell are you doing to prevent this? Where is all this money going??’
The truth hurts. AIDS organisations have no desire to stop people getting infected. The reasons for this perverse behaviour will probably never be revealed. It is time for fresh thinking and real action to stop another generation being sleep-walked into infection. The heads of these charities need to start taking responsibility for their failure. I hope this excellent article is reprinted in the national press – then maybe the politicians will see young gay men’s health without a lifetime of pharmaceutical intervention is a hope worth pursuing.
“Furthermore, he peddles lies and untruths about the efficacy of HIV treatment and its tolerability and harks back to a mythical golden age of HIV prevention that never existed.”
MCC – have you really got no idea at all. Clearly you have no experience whatsoever of the devastating effects meds can have on the quality of life of those with HIV. They are not the perfect solution for many people, and regrettably they are not even an imperfect one for a minority.
As time goes on we learn more about the long term effects of the medications that are used to extend life. We have known about Lipodystrophy and Lipoatrophy for a number of years, but we are not learning of other side effects like significant increases in the likelihood so heart disease for example. More will come as the long term trials provide results.
This softly, softly approach is encouraging people to take risks. In any risk situation you consciously or unconsciously weigh up the pros and cons. Do it and you’ll most likely end up dying a painfully, ugly death, rates as a pretty significant con for most people. That is the message we need to be sending out, not that you can whore yourself out all weekend and with half of club land shooting their muck up you, because on Monday morning you can take a magic pill that will make it all better.
Brilliant article. I shall Twitter it and blog it. Thank you for publishing it.
‘Safe sex always, use a condom and live a long and happy life.’ Twitter that sentence. Start the campaigning now. Refuse to have sex with any guy who does not use a condom If you have ever watched QaF (USA version), Brian Kinny was always saying never have sex without a condom.
As far as the charities are concerned maybe our LGBT Community should have our own controlled HIV prevention groups to look after the gay community. We need to look after ourselves I have said this on Youtube and on my blogs. We need to take our own initiative seriously, stop playing around unsafely (literally)and take stock of our situation globally. We all need to be involved in this. The message is loud and clear.
Our survival depends on it.
MCC said: “And please tell me, since when has that TV doctor and Paul Burston been authorities on HIV prevention?”
So, dishy telly doc Chris Jessen is not an authority on HIV? Is that why he is a registered GP with an MSc in sexual health and HIV?
I recall the CHAPS conference in March last year when former Boyz writer, Paul Steinberg, was invited along to put the case for harder-hitting HIV campaigns, which he had been calling for in the mag. It turns out he was only invited so that he could be heckled and jeered at by the bullying lynch mob of usual suspects from THT and GMFA, who ignored his well reasoned arguments and left the poor guy visibly shaken.
There is a wonderful quote, also from the author of Killing Us Softly, that features as the lead story on http://www.homovision.tv at the moment, which recounts a similar experience when he was invited along to Gaydar’s offices to put the case forward for the company to run crystal meth banners to enable Gaydar members who came into contact with the drug from others they met online to make informed choices, and where every argument he made for the banners was aggressively opposed and discredited by representatives from the THT and GMFA, who effectively, it appears, now speak as one organization:
“There is something richly disdainful and unsettling about the ferocious amount of energy that HIV sector drones are willing to expend suppressing and dismissing any criticism of their dishonest approach to safeguarding human life. If their way is so effective and their case so strong, why the need to try so fervently to extinguish criticism and aggressively smear, bully, discredit and intimidate any opposing viewpoint into submission?”
I, and I’m sure most other people reading this section, could not agree more. It seems quite apparent that THT/GMFA policy is to see as many gay men infected with HIV as possible because the continuing spread of the virus is their bread and butter and is enriching their pharmaceutical paymasters magnificently (HIV drugs have the biggest mark-up of any prescribed drug). No wonder the hopelessly out of touch, six-figure-salaried, gold-plated pensioned THT chief executive Nick Partridge looked so smug collecting his MBE within days of the latest HIV rates being released. Job done boys!!
This article by Gary Leigh is telling. Tribute must be given for his forthright and courageous stand. He risks the wrath of many gay vested interests that is already clear from the opposition he has received in these comments. It is also remarkable how few there are which, tells its own story. Gays find it difficult to face reality, because the consequences are potentially disastrous. This is understandable.
The central issue appears to be that HIV is not a negotiable option. Who could possibly argue with that?
The article then proceeds to negotiate a way out of the current impasse in which the gay lobby groups have been co-opted by the pharmaceutical companies who gain from the sale of their products. Both now seemingly advance their interests by encouraging the use of PEP’s that simply irresponsibly stimulates the incidence of HIV/AIDS.
Reference is made of the high cost of treating HIV cases as between £113,000-201,000, but this is only part of the picture. Another expert has calculated the individual infection costs as between £500,000 and £1 million in treatment and lost productivity. The total bill for caring for AIDS patients is a staggering £345 million. The cost in human suffering and pain is incalculable.
The obvious truth is that if men stopped having sex with men then HIV/AIDS would vanish. Whether this is done voluntarily or formerly through state intervention is in today’s society, too controversial a thought.
Time marches on and circumstances change, so what holds for today may not for tomorrow. The incidence of HIV/AIDS shows no sign of abating. Instead it remorselessly grows each year.
It does not take a brain scientist to conclude it cannot go on. Someone, somewhere will have to draw a line that will in all likelihood mean the re-criminalisation of homosexual practices.
This is obvious, but no one will say it, let alone think it!
Brilliant article Mr. Leigh, thank you very much. I get entirely what you say about HIV charities “victimizing” HIV-ers and using stigma as an excuse not to use shock HIV campaigns which they claim, without any foundation whatsoever, “demonise” people.
I have spent a good part of the weekend so far looking over your impressive site, http://www.lifeormeth.com, and in particular your exhaustive study into the HIV sector, ‘Aids Inc. Uncovered’, which I implore everyone who agrees with this article to read. In particular, in the section Truth isn’t Judgement, regarding the way HIV staff treat HIV-ers as victims, you state:
‘HIV charities should stop referring to gay men as being victims or “at risk of HIV” and talk instead about gay men who are willfully reckless or inadequately informed about the risks they are taking with their health.’
‘The majority of gay men who want to see harder-hitting HIV campaigns are not, as AID$ Inc. claim, demanding the return of tombstones or icebergs in an age where HIV is not an automatic death sentence, even though it remains an incurable, terminal condition. They want honest, truthful messages that convey the many pitfalls of living with the condition and the endless regime of toxic meds; that reinforce the message that a life without HIV is a life best lived; and in spite of how such messages may or may not be perceived by HIVers themselves – most of whom understood fully the risks they were taking in that reckless moment, or moments, of madness – and who should be encouraged to take responsibility for their actions instead of being treated as helpless victims by the HIV sector.’
Wise words indeed. Well done!
Yes, this article is stating a great truth. The health educators are frightened of frightening people with the realities of having HIV. Not many people enjoy frightening people. And frightening people can, indeed, so easily increase stigma. So instead they are simply choosing not instil fear of HIV in people. And yet people who are not HIV-infected have a RIGHT to be made fearful of HIV, to be frightened, even terrified, of HIV.
And thus the opposite is happening. Endless videos of endless anal sex are shown in venues up and down the country, all promoting this very dangerous activity. It’s completely mad.
Well observed points in your last post, Rob. I too was at the CHAPS conference in March last year. It was a few days after Doctor Christian Jenson made his HIV comments to The Metro newspaper, which Mr. Steinberg made a point of recounting to the audience to support his argument for harder hitting HIV campaigns. It was at that point that one of the snarling mob from the HIV prevention sector stood up and shouted, to quote, “And what the hell does HE know? He’s only a doctor!” I found this particularly rich, amusing even, considering that the only formal qualifications these imbeciles appear to have are in media training and the dark art of spin.
I remember chatting to some colleagues after the talk, all of whom witnessed this shocking debacle, and we each despaired that surely it couldn’t be too long before what these charities really stand for is exposed to the public. As the evidence clearly shows in this excellently researched and written Pink News article, HIV prevention it ain’t! This site is to be commended for refusing to close ranks around the health charities like the rest of the gay media, who clearly place the profits from endless ads for PEP and so forth above the health and lives of their readers. Perhaps a boycott of the printed gay press is called for?
Regards, “Dr. Phil”
PS: Apologies for not using my real name here. I have no intention of being the subject of the next smear/intimidation campaign by the unsavoury likes of The Terrence Higgins Trust/GMFA thought police simply for having the impudence to speak the truth.
I have to say reading through all of these comments I am extremely heartened by many of the comments ere that re-enforce what I have felt for so long.
I am not entirely convinced that there is a conspiracy going on to secure funding by the HIV charities and prefer to think it is down to misguided individuals/organisations doing what they think is best but getting it wrong maybe, or some other as yet not obvious reason.
With all my heart I believe that the messages being delivered by HIV charities like THT and GMFA in their attempts to be seen as relevant, have gone ‘native’ and now seemingly encourage or promote a reckless and dangerous lifestyle which will likely end in harm.
It does however beg the question, what are we going to do about it?
I grew up encouraged to believe that I should act to help other people that needed it, and that I should not stand by and see someone else getting hurt if I could do something to stop it.
THT and GMFA undoubtedly do some good work, but their health message has become lost. How do we ensure they get it back?
Brilliant article! All I can say is thank God I was a child of the Eighties. Had I been a young man emerging onto today’s scene I have no doubt I would have quickly contracted the virus, and even regarded it ad a badge of honour as it has been touted by the so-called preventionists. As it is I owe my negative status and hood health to those hard hitting but honest campaigns of old. This article should be required reading for all. Can Pink News keep it on the front page a few days longer?
As someone who lived through the 80′s campaigns and practised very safe sex as a result, I wholeheartedly support the view that hard hitting campaigns should be used. I also believe that softer campaigns should be used as different people react differently.
Unfortunately, even though I practiced safe sex, I accidently contracted HIV through an open cut in my skin (finger) a few years ago. For 2 or 3 years, as my immune system was compromised, HIV badly affected my quality of life through ill health, my work and mental wellbeing, and I consider myself one of the lucky ones! My partner has just had to change his medication due to not tolerating his first regimen. We are constantly reminded of our mortality, and glad for access to life saving drugs.
Young people should be told the hard truth, how HIV is still terminal and effects your day to day well being – being chronically ill, constantly reminded that your life span has been shortened and your body is weakened and more prone to other diseases. If a harder approach helps reduce the future numbers infected, then it is definitely worth doing.
The recent media message that it is now a manageable condition is a misrepresentation of the impact on people’s lives and should be countered with some more uncomfortable facts such as those in this article.
Thanks Gary for raising the debate.
This article is long overdue and reading these comments have been equally instructive. I would beg to differ with Pringle however in that only three out of 27 postings have so far been negative and two of those were from the same person labouring the same tedious point.
Sister Mary Clarence asks what can we do about the will full recruitment of our community to the virus by the insane practises of the HIV charities? Well for a start we should start refering to the likes of the THT and the GFMA as ‘HIV enablers’. They most certainly are not preventors.
Next, we name and shame those who enable the likes of the THT and the GFMA in their HIV-enabling activities and who reprint their press releases for each of their zany, often money-making schemes without question. So stand up and be counted QX, Boyz, Out, Gay Times, Attitude…
Next barebacking videos. We do not blame the producers of these obscene snuff movies for taking advantage of the environment that has enabled them to fester; an environment made possible by the life-endangering policies of the likes of (yup you guessed it) the THT and the GFMA. But we do blame those who give this vile trade the oxygen of publicity so stand up and be counted gayromeo.com, QX Men, Clone Zone, Prowler…
All of these enterprises are co conspirators in the spread of HIV throughout our community. We should be up in arms and marching on their offices and pikketing their retail outlets until they take a responsible approach. If they refused to accept the HIV charities advertising the government would be forced to take notice and stop funding the chief enablers of HIV in our community all together and divert it instead to those who respect their fellow gay men enough to want to prevent them contracting a terminal disease and life time of chronic illnesses that go along with the HIV drugs.
It isn’t rocket science guys!!!
I invite people to have a short tour of some of Terrance Higgins products, funded by tax payers money and blessed by Gordon Brown
Google Life Lube Bottom line – Terrence Higgins; and Life Lube Below the Belt – Terrence Higgins
How soon before this stuff finds its way into the government’s compulsory sex education programme for schools?
Like Sister Mary Clarence I avoid being drawn to conspiracy theories because I prefer to look for the best in people, and to think that everyone’s intent is to help Mankind…
So, I am reading the Sunday paper this morning when my attention is drawn to the name Liam Doldson, the goverment’s Chief Medical Officer. Last Thursday it was announced that vaccination for Swine Flue would start for at-risk people in October, and that Glaxo will be the U.K.’s main supplier of millions of doses of the vaccine, resulting in a ‘bumper balance sheet’ for the pharma giant…
Of course it is just a remarkable coincidence that Mr Donaldson was the person who, in 2006 according to ‘Killing Us Softly’, also authorized Glaxo’s AZT for “non-occupational exposure” (unprotected sex)…
And then my brain starts focusing on the Government specifications that HIV workers have been working to this decade, and then to the MPs expenses scandal that revealed that most would sell their grannies off to get their hands on her bone china…
And then I wonder out loud why was the chief exec officer of the Terrence Higgins Trust awarded a gong in the New Year’s Honors list. Haven’t these awards when handed to public sector staff not been shown to be nods to croney-ism and rewards for failure? Certainly, what has the Higgins Trust done that merits recognition of the highest order?…
And then I swirl all these questions around in my head and I start coming to an inevitable conclusions and it all gets too much and I realize, hey, it’s probably best just to continue to at least ‘pretend’ that everyone’s intent to each other is good and wholesome and that there really is no great conspiracy to sell gay men down the river in pursuit of Glaxo profits. Well, I can but dream…
Whatever are you suggesting Simon? That because Sir Liam commissioned both pep (note: NOT azt as you state – that is another Glaxo/tht scandal altogether!) for non-accidental use and the Swine Flu vaccine, which both happen to be produced by Glaxo, that a great conspiracy is at play here? No, there is probably a more innocent explanation. For example, perhaps Sir Liam has shares in Glaxo?
Regarding Typewriter’s post, from Terence Higgins Trust’s own web site you can see that it is indeed hard at work influencing sex education for young people. Its Young Leaders Project, for example, helps “create innovative education projects about relationships, sex and sexual health”, and the charity also offers free sexual health training at its Kings Cross offices to professionals working with young people. tht is even organizing non-sexual projects aimed at youngsters such as “offering young people from the lgbt community a chance to take part in an exciting new project in which they will ‘re-write’ modern British history to include the role of the lgbt movement” (announced on its web site in July), and many others.
Personally I find the tht’s targeting of young people to be a cause for extreme alarm, the chief concern being that these kids will no doubt be indoctrinated with the same crazy politically correct ideology that has already as this article astutely points out sleepwalked thousands of gays into hiv infection and reliant on the tht’s support services and Pharma’s medications which damage the body’s natural defenses.
A few weeks back the tht rallied behind the Government’s plan to make sex and relationships education a statutory part of the National Curriculum by 2011. No doubt even now it is petitioning for tips on how to “pull out like porn stars” (to quote one of its infamous hiv campaigns), a guided tour of its http://www.Hardcell.org.uk web site and more besides to be included in the new sex education curriculum!
How dare the tht position itself as sex educators to youngsters with their appalling track record in this field! What qualifies these buffoons to decide what is the best information for these young and vulnerable minds to absorb? HEY, THT, LEAVE OUR KIDS ALONE!!!
It seems to me that most of the blame for the rise in HIV infections among gay men should not be laid at the door of the HIV prevention groups, but at the doors of those making money selling sex.
Step into the heart of any of the UK’s major cities, find the gay community, and in it you will easily locate:
- Gay newspapers and magazines which “sell” the idea of sex, it being a given that every reader is seeking sex. Even the most “innocent” pages, perhaps featuring fashion and clothes, will feature guys who are unclad in some way, in provocative sexual poses. There are pages featuring total nudity, even showing full stand-up erections. Back pages feature scores of photographs of erect cocks on offer for rent.
Either in the gay newspapers or magazines or via flyers, handouts, or posters, there are then:
- Advertisements for club dance nights which strongly suggest wild and horny sex is on the agenda
- Advertisements for sex-on-site clubs which very strongly suggest that wild and horny sex will be had, will occur
- Advertisements for gay saunas which strongly suggest that sex will be had, will occur
- Advertisements for pubs which strongly suggest that the pubs in question are THE places to find “fit” and sexy guys
- Advertisements for shops which state that “desirable” professionally-produced hardcore pornography can be purchased.
Then pay the owners of these establishments a fee to actually step inside some of these venues, and a raft of heavier brainwashing strategies swing into gear
- in the saunas, high quality videos play on continuous loop showing sex which is ALWAYS angled at and ALWAYS ends in fucking (regardless of whether or not condoms are used). The message is “Now you are here, the thing to do is fuck!”.
- there are clubs where the same fuck-fixated videos are shown in certain corners right through till closing time
- saunas and sex-clubs provide every accessory for having sex, and endless multiple sex. Boxes of lube and condoms sit on the bar-counters or hang on the walls.
Sex sells. People are making MONEY. Big money. The first line of culprits are the gay newspapers and magazines, and then come the companies, clubs, manufacturers, and sex-workers who advertise in them.
ALL OF THEM ARE MAKING A MINT OUT OF SELLING HARD SEX AND PRETENDING THAT ALL IS WELL AND THAT THERE IS NO DANGER WHATSOEVER.
THESE ARE THE PEOPLE WHO ARE DOING THE BRAINWASHING. We need to stop THEM.
I also recommend people object to THT about the underlying message conveyed by the HardCell website.
I am extremely concerned about your website “Hardcell”. It fails to convey to readers the horror of acquiring HIV and the horror of having to live with HIV. It fails to cause fear of HIV, as well as fear of other STDs.
Uninfected people have a right to be fearful of HIV. Unfortunately your website minimises that fearfulness.
I note that even on your HardCell page dealing with HIV itself, there is absolutely no reference whatsoever to the horror of HIV. Unfortunately you give readers the impression that HIV can be dealt with with ease. This is grossly incorrect.
Contents of the HardCell webpage on HIV:
How common is HIV?
The number of UK gay and bisexual men with HIV (Human Immunodeficiency Virus) gets bigger every year. Around 2,000 of us each year are told we have it. 2007 saw the highest ever number diagnosed (over 3000).
About one in 10 gay and bisexual men who’ve been tested are HIV positive. About one in four of gay and bisexual men with HIV don’t realise they have it, higher in the big cities.
The number of men with HIV will be higher or lower depending on what type of crowd or venue you’re in and where you are in the UK: for example, it’s around one in eight in London and Brighton and close to that figure in Manchester and Birmingham. It’s a lot higher among men involved with the hard sex and fetish scene.
What causes HIV infection?
HIV is a virus that weakens the immune system. Having HIV can lead to AIDS (Acquired Immune Deficiency Syndrome). AIDS is the term used to describe the point when a person’s immune system can no longer cope because of damage caused by HIV and specific illnesses start to appear.
What are the symptoms of HIV infection?
If you’re infected with HIV you won’t usually get any symptoms straight away. But in the weeks after infection you may get flu-like symptoms (called a ‘sero-conversion illness’) with any of the following:
* sore throat
* a rash on the body.
Many people don’t get these. And they can be caused by lots of other common infections. So if someone gets them they’d be wrong to think they definitely have HIV.
For months or years after you get infected, HIV may cause no symptoms. But over time, you may get symptoms of infections and diseases caused by your immune system getting weaker, such as swollen glands, losing weight, thrush in the mouth and throat and other infections that don’t clear up easily.
How is HIV infection treated?
There’s no vaccine or cure for HIV. If you have HIV, many of the illnesses you may get can be treated or kept under control with drugs. Drugs can also lower the amount of HIV made in your body, usually meaning better health. If someone is tested and begins treatment before HIV damages their immune system too much, HIV drugs work very well and they can expect to live as long as someone who doesn’t have HIV.
You might not be given drugs straight away. Tests are done to see how well your body is fighting HIV before decisions are made about treatment. The treatment may be different depending on where you’re being treated.
I do recommend that folks google “The PM celebrates 25 years of the Terrence Higgins Trust – You tube.” Enjoy.
The Department for Children Schools and Families said this year that an extra £20.5m has been provided for a package of support and investment to increase access to, and promote the use of, contraception by young people.
The Family Planning Association that has received millions of tax payers’ money since the labour party came to power, produce little glossy booklets for children i as young as twelve and thirteen. I should know I had to give some out to a year nine group.
These are extracts from the FPA’s publication entitled “Is Everyone Doing it?”
“People often find that changing a relationship to a sexual one is a bigger step than they think. You don’t have to go all the way to have a good time. So don’t be pushed into doing something you don’t want. Kissing and petting can be a lot of fun and are all part of sex. And knowing how your partner like to be touched is what makes you a good lover.”
What they are saying to hormonally charged teenagers is the equivalent of saying that as long as they exercise restraint and self – control they can play safely with fuses and detonators whilst sitting on a bomb.
Note also how the likes of Matthew Hodson at GMFA no longer refer to “safe sex”. For example, promoting his org’s new explicit sex guide in Boyz (YES REALLY!!!!) he constantly refers to this thing called ‘safer sex’. Just one letter, but it is the difference, literally, between a healthy life and a terminal illness. Put these people inpublic stocks where they belong. They are traitors!!!!
I have never claimed to be ‘an expert on HIV prevention’. However, as a gay journalist I do think I have a right and a duty to ask questions, and I will continue to do.
(BOYZ magazine, 13 August 2009, pg.3): “Gay men’s health charity GMFA are about to unleash ‘Hot Sex’ – the sexiest, dirtiest and most explicit sexual health booklet you’ll ever see. Arriving in Soho next Saturday (22 Aug) GMFA have used sizzling hardcore porn images from Hot House Entertainment to send out a loud and clear message that sex with condoms is not just safer, but hot as hell too. Matthew Hodson, Head of Programmes at GMFA, says: ‘This is certainly not the kind of booklet you could show your mum. However, we think there’s a real need to make safer sex information sexy again, particularly in light of the popularity of bareback porn.’”
Folks, you are being lied to, manipulated, conned, duped, taken for mugs… THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS SAFER SEX! It is an oxymoron. Sex can only be safe or unsafe, there is NO middle ground. The word ‘safer’ denotes an element of risk is still involved – THEREFORE IT IS UNSAFE!!!
These “charities”, and I use that word loosely, have spent the last few years working to Government guidelines to confuse and misinform us all into believing safer sex will do when they knew all along that safer sex = risky sex, just as all their other HIV campaign tactics are doing the opposite of what they should be doing (e.g. increasing HIV infection rates instead of reducing them).
Sam, I will be first in line with the rotten tomatoes if the day does come when these dangerous PC oxymorons are put in the stocks. In the meantime, why don’t we all arrive in force in Soho next Saturday and tell the GMFA where it can stick its oxymoron of a “dirty, explicit health booklet”? Or protest at the GMFA Bank Holiday Sports Day at the RVT where well-intentioned gay men will be participating to raise yet more funds for the GMFA to effectively use against their best interests…
There is a word for the tactics being used to disinform gay men about sexual health. It is called doublespeak, and it is a language GMFA et al have mastered to a tee. George Orwell would be proud…
Codex thanks for education regarding GMFA. I obviously live a sheltered existence.
I must confess there are some excellent suggestions here. Some
very good points have been drawn out which make a great deal of sense.
However, the ‘machine’ is now running under its own momentum, is increasing its speed, and is likely to come to an abrupt stop, if not fatal crash.
Somehow, we have to take to the streets again and make our sensible care-worn views known. We have to expose the commercialisation of the gay sex industry and the close association between Governeent, the drug industry and self-appointed gay rights concerns like THT who have capitulated to both the influnence of government but the inexorable greed that characterises the drug industry.
After all, it’s our health, our live’s that’s at stack.
Codex is right – there is a great deal of disinformation out there!
It is puzzling that in both the original article and in much of the ensuing comment people are talking of opposing sides with about as much in common as Arsenal and Spurs fans.
To speak of “HIV sector trolls” is easy abuse, but I am grateful for the hard work and good intentions of those people who have chosen to work with and for gay people and for people with HIV, without needing to believe that they are infallible.
I was involved with GMFA in the early days of its existence and the thorny problem for us was how to encourage gay men to change their private sexual conduct. It’s very difficult to design an ad or print a leaflet that has as much influence on a jaunty cock as three or four pints of beer.
The government’s “hard-hitting” ads had largely fallen on the deaf ears of gay men (why would we pay much heed to a government that had passed Section 28, foul-mouthed the GLC’s pro-gay policies and staunchly backed a discriminatory age of consent).
The challenge for GMFA volunteers was how to provide friendly advice to gay men from gay men, to speak to people “where they were”. Our message could not be “stop having sex” – safe sex is no sex – because such a message would not be listened to. Our messages instead were “sex positive” as the only type of message there was any chance of getting over. We wanted, for example, to make the use of condoms “sexy” since condom use reduces the risk of HIV transmission hugely. The official line was that condom use was “safe sex”; we countered with the term “safer sex” to underline that a condom might break and there might be unintended exchange of body fluids – something that Paul Burston seems to misunderstand.
The situation is even more difficult now. Anti-retrovirals have as a simple matter of fact reduced the fear that was once associated with HIV. Men’s libidos have not reduced proportionately. The bareback culture (which was born in the US) has much to do with the American cult of individualism and the refusal to be dictated to by central government or national health authorities (the same attitude that fuelled both the Stonewall riots and the present row over reform of their health care system). In the UK, gay men have been all too ready importers of American cultural values, not always to our benefit.
We have to face up it – you can’t control a man’s inflamed libido by wagging a finger. You must start with a target audience, decide what messages they are prepared to hear and take on board and negotiate accordingly. Recruiting them to the campaign is the best way of proceeding – not abusing them or the people who are trying to do the work with their sleeves rolled up.
Stupidly I mistook the sender of an earlier message and should have referred in my reply to Codex and not to my old friend Paul Burston who I hope will speak to me again!
Michael, in the early days of GMFA in the early 1990s when hard-hitting campaigns were succeeding at reducing rates (by 1995 to their lowest level ever), who, exactly, decided this successful approach was a “thorny problem” and felt it a “challenge” to change? These hard-hitting campaigns never told gay men to stop having sex; just to practice it safely at all times (I know those ads worked because they encrypted their message deep into my subconscious and I remain HIV-negative to this day, no matter how today’s ads which appear to be put together by neural-linguistic programmers may seek to erase). That’s right, it was the PC zealots who determined to turn successful HIV prevention on its head in pursuit of their own policies and agendas.
When GMFA started out, it was a reaction against the excesses of THT, whose Chief Executive Nick Partridge had recently been caught red-handed accepting back-handers on THT’s behalf from Glaxo (yes, them again), for pushing gay men in London onto AZT – a toxic chemotherapy drug that was withdrawn because it was killing cancer patients. When gay men taking AZT inevitably started dropping like flies, GAG – Gays Against Genocide – was formed to highlight this scandal, which made the front pages of The Sunday Express and even the gay press at a time when the gay media didn’t cover-up for the HIV sector’s many shameful practices.
How sad that as the years have progressed, GMFA morphed into the same institution that it set up to counter, and now THT and GMFA speak with the same PC voice and support each others’ policies wholesale. Typical, Michael, that you should mention that insulting stock PC term “wagging finger” to attack honest and truthful HIV campaigns and by turn justify your liberal approach. For your information I probably owe my life to that wagging finger, so let’s hear it for the wagging finger everyone, and demand lots more of them!!!
Michael Mason – sorry don’t know you from Adam, and I don’t particularly want to offend, but rather than focusing so much resource on the health and wellbeing of people spending the entire weekend off their heads on Tina and G while getting barebacked and double fisted (without offending them), you maybe should have considered helping those who hadn’t yet started engaging in such high risk activities to understand the dangers and consequences of aforementioned high risk activities in relation to contracting HIV.
A number of people on the gay scene in London have got a taste for barebacking (that is unlikely to go away) on the backs of the cure all PEP medication that THT and GMFA have been hawking to all and sundry.
Whether best of intentioned or otherwise, people now seem to be realising that both these organisations, inadvertantly or otherwise, have blood on their hands.
It has to stop and it won’t stop until people like yourself admit you were wrong and accept some blame.
Gays are like those who would take a nuclear core out of a nuclear reactor and use it for purposes other than those for which it was designed. The core is not only NOT an end in itself,being designed to serve no other purpose than to work within a reactor, but it is also immensely destructive once brought out of the reactor. It is no use saying yes you can extract the core and use it however you wish but please be careful by taking precautions. Likewise taking the sexual act out marriage and using it for whatever purpose one wishes is not only dangerous but dehumanising. Not only do homosexuals run the risk of physical, emotional and mental health problems but they are reducing themselves to lumps of meat. As a friend of mine said you cannot put a condom on your heart, mind soul and spirit.
Typewriter, one must hate and fear the HIV virus and not the right to enjoy having sex. Otherwise one is in danger of sounding like a religionist. Religious ordinances have been devised throughout history, not usually to genuinely instil a love of any god, but as a means of controlling and avoiding pestilence and disease. One must be aware of the danger of following suit. Some people wish to be monogamous and others do not. Everyone has a right to enjoy sex naturally and in whatever circumstances that they wish. Unfortunately, however, we now have a particularly dangerous virus that theatens this natural right. And so we have to take precautions.
The HIV virus is very difficult to catch. Ask any medic. Read the literature. There are many documented cases of people who have taken bucketloads of spunk up the arse from infected people and NOT been infected themselves. So, you see, the situation is extremely complex. One thing is for sure: playing Russian Roulette with this virus is not worth it. And this message is NOT being given by the gay media and by gay businesses, particularly sex-oriented businesses.
Michael Mason, above, reminds us of valid points. Education and information is all. When I looked at the THT’s HardCell website last night, for the first time, I learnt a great deal actually about a number of things, notably all the ways there are of taking drugs. Personally, because I don’t take drugs, I found the descriptions chilling. However, if I was a person who did take drugs I expect that page at HardCell could provide me with helpful information on better ways of administering my drugs. I do believe that the HardCell website WILL be looked at, and WILL be read. So in terms of communicating it will be successful.
HOWEVER, I maintain that the authors of the website have not only a duty to share information about sexual activities but a duty to share full unedited and unsoftened information about the gravity and seriousness of indulging in activities which are medium- to high-risk in terms of contracting HIV and other STDs. In other words, they have a duty to also share a very clear and unmistakeable picture, a graphic picture, of the reality of living with HIV on a day-to-day basis. As the site currently stands, it is “attractive”, it is certainly communicative, but it is also alluring and enticing, it invites viewers to enjoy a smorgasbord of extreme and unusual sexual activities in hardcore contexts. Nowhere on its pages is there a mention of the other alternative: simple sex, plain romantic sex, or “vanilla” as it’s sometimes been called.
“Wagging the finger” is not necessarily a censorious and disapproving activity. The finger can be wagged in the manner of the religious bigot who wants everyone to have sex entirely for the purpose of procreation within heterosexual relationships, but it can also be wagged in a loving manner towards gay men, indicating to them that while enjoying sex is absolutely fine, certain practices are absolutely foolish, dangerous, irresponsible, and downright stupid – and all because of that wretched virus and certain other dangerous STDs.
THT, Stonewall, and the gay media should not now get defensive about our anger over their recent trends. It is simply that all of us, together, must now agree that it is clear that there is a need for a massive change of approach. Yes, the gay media and the gay businesses, of all types, will lose money by not promoting the pursuit of sex, but it is better income is lost than more and more people succumb to lives dependent upon toxic chemotherapy and the health system becomes overburdened with the extraordinary cost of supplying treatment.
typewriter, what in gods name are you talking about?!? Maybe sex is as complicated as nuclear physics for you, obviously it is and more pity you, but that doesn’t mean its the same for all of us. Your example is rather tupid…. uncannily like Skinner, and his pals.
I for one love sex. Its perfectly natural. Sex was around for hundreds of millions of years before marriage came along. To say that sex outside marriage is unnatural is just plain religiously puritanical and without any foundation in reality.
Besides, it wont be long now until we “gays” DO have marriage….. so nothing to worry your tiny little mind about, eh?
“God laughs at these puny antics of mere worms who are here today and gone tomorrow.”
Rather like the way we laugh at the “these puny antics of mere worms who are here today and gone tomorrow” like you.
Quoting the bible to the majority of people who don’t believe in your literal interpretations and lies is an act of futility.
Rant all you like. It won’t change the fact that we will have our marriage and our equality. The days of Anita Bryant are well and truly over.
The only laughter I hear is of others reading your amusing posting, “typewriter”. Me? I tend to feel sorrow for you than for those unfortunate to read your loathsome diatribe. At least they are assured swifter entry through the pearly gates for not breaking the most sacred of all the commandments: Thou shalt not pass judgement on others, particularly when it as misinformed and laced in venom as your spiteful missive. I am certain of one fact: God will not seek to appease you by going back to the drawing board to fix the built-in “design flaw” that has given millions of his creations sexual urges towards others of the same sex since the days of the ark for it is one of his most notable achievements to be celebrated and thankful for. Typewriter, if you cannot at least stay on subject then I suggest you take your pulpit elsewhere.
Back on subject, and reading through this section of comments which in themselves make for fascinating reading (thanks for keeping this article prominent, Pink News!), there is a well known quote that comes to mind reading the post that correctly points out that safer sex – the term that is now common currency among HIV prevention “professionals” – is unsafe sex, namely -
““IF YOU TELL A LIE THAT IS BIG ENOUGH AND KEEP REPEATING IT, PEOPLE WILL EVENTUALLY COME TO BELIEVE IT BECAUSE IT BECOMES THEIR TRUTH.”
With its campaign to confuse and misinform gay men, is it any wonder why sexual health is in such dire straits? Sexual health advocates are preaching one size fits all where ‘safer sex’ is concerned instead of safe sex’ at all times – they are not just espousing safer sex for patrons of the underground sex scene and other sex-on-site establishments but for all! In unison they are telling all gay men to indulge in behaviours that can expose them to HIV, regardless of how that behaviour may be encouraged to minimalize the risk of transmission. The fact is the risk is still there, but safer sex by definition implies it is OK not to use condoms if you do it this way. It is a con! Wake up people!!!
One thing that appears to have been missed in all of this is that both THT and GMFA are volunteer led organisations. If you don’t like the way that they do things join up and lead the call to change from within.
Typewriter writes: “Surely by now it is evident to all that the gay lobby do not want to be like us”.
So, Will, you’re right, “Typewriter” is most probably “David Skinner” (and all his other names). PinkNews must have blacklisted the name he used previously.
I’ve reported his comment above to the moderator. I suggest everybody else does as well.
We have constructive work to do here. We mustn’t have our energies wasted by this foolish bigot.
David, yes, people may choose whether to become involved as members of THT and GMFA, but the discussion we are having here is extremely important and valuable and we not only have a right to conduct it but we have a duty to conduct it.
What is most fascinating to me about this discussion is that a good number of clearly articulate, rational, open-minded and clear-thinking gay men are absolutely in agreement that there is a massive and immediate need for a great change in public information programmes concerning HIV and AIDS.
What needs to happen now is for this strong united voice from within the gay community to be translated to the Health Department and to the government in general.
We have a good number of gay MPs. Come on! This may not fall within your particular portfolio, but you have a responsibility. Drive this message home to all of your peers in government.
We have a gay mayor in Southwark who has posted on these pages. Are you reading this thread, Sir? Southwark is host to many sex-on-site venues (pubs, clubs, and saunas) which are making a mint out of purveying the idea that wild and horny sex is to be had, had, and had again, as if there is no great danger on the loose. What are you going to do about this, Sir?
Members of all the gay media. You are reading this discussion but are you going to take responsibility? Commend this discussion and our thoughts to your co-workers and others you know in all forms of gay media, whether it be the gay porn industry, gay newspapers, gay magazines, or any other spin-off. Copy this entire Comment Section, remove the nonsense from the religious bigot, and then post it around.
Anyone with links to the major government parties? Take our message to them – as an act of responsibility.
Lastly, if anyone reading this thread thinks that anti-retroviral drugs have now made having HIV a breeze, just do a couple of minutes of internet research, will you! Here’s one good place to have a look around, for a starter:
Click here for the Treatment thread at The Body website
Your right Eddy… I suppose hence the name he uses “typewriter”: a device capable of writing the words and ideas of others, but does no actual processing or thinking itself.
I have read the comments on this while being horrified and shocked that people hold such views. I work in a sexual health charity for Gay men and we only publicise PEP treatment as it saves lives. It also saves the NHS money as treating someone for HIV is far more expensive than a one month course of PEP treatment which has a good chance of preventing transmission. I have helped men who have been raped get PEP, they often don’t know anything about PEP but are grateful when we can help them access PEP. I also know that the NHS will not give out PEP for LOW risk activities, i.e. sex with a condom or oral sex without a condom. We also do not get paid for every PEP course of treatment started. There are no incentives whatsoever. If someone repeatedly presents for PEP (which is rare) that person will be sent for counselling to change their risk behaviour.
The reason why we argue against criminalisation of HIV transmission is that it doesn’t solve anything or help the person who has HIV. It does increase stigma related to HIV and that stigma is not an incentive to be tested for HIV if you think you will be discriminated against. In comparative studies between countries who have criminalised HIV transmission and countries who haven’t, there is no change in HIV transmission levels.
HIV treatment is progressively getting better, the reason why AZT was SO destructive at the early stages was because the old levels of AZT in the body was 8 times higher than AZT now. Quite simply there was too much of AZT in the body increasing the toxicity levels. Now there are treatments which have minimal side effects due to relatively low toxicity and work as long as the pills are taken religiously.
The tombstone adverts worked to decrease transmission of HIV simply by not providing information but to scare people off sex so people avoided sex as a blanket rule. I have met men who were totally scared by that advert years after it was shown and who have avoided sex even with a condom. I know men who have put off being tested for HIV because of that advert which puts them at risk of advanced HIV infection and death. HIV still kills, I have healthy friends who have HIV because they know they have it they have altered their sexual practises to avoid transmitting it to others. One person who died recently of HIV that I know didn’t stick to his medications very well but if you do then you have a stronger chance dying of natural causes and not HIV.
I have sex without a condom only if both me and my partner get tested and have a monogamous relationship. I am still HIV-. That is what I call safer sex. Being able to make an informed choice about safe or safer sex enables me to have the sex I want without putting myself at major risk of HIV.
Simply saying put on a condom at all times (during oral sex anyone?) is quite paternalistic and maybe that works for some people but I would ignore that because I know how to reduce MASSIVELY the risk of HIV transmission. If someone says all illegal drugs are evil and will kill then I take an illegal drug and don’t die…the message is not as effective. I will just think that person who is anti-drugs is not as informed as myself and will ignore anything else that person says.
I agree that it would be extremely helpful to look at hardline HIV campaigns to see if long term they work. A short term effect on HIV transmission is not a long term solution. San Francisco HIV transmission rates have stabilised as of 2008 and they have missed their 50% target reducing infection rates managing to reach 10% reduction since 2004. 10% is great but is not a long term solution.
The easy bit is to scare some people into changing their sexual risk behaviour but it’s FAR harder to reach the stubborn/hard to help people and get them to change their behaviour.
The Playzone initative by THT is not universally liked by the sexual health charities with some seeing it as useless PR. THT has a track record of pushing ahead with initatives without consultation with its sexual health charity partners within CHAPs.
I am not a fan at all of the response at CHAPs regarding Dr Christian Jessen. Discussion should be had around this subject respectfully of other people’s views in order to gain insight on how to get to the hard to reach sections of the Gay community. If similar health campaigns such as the stop smoking ones universally worked then the NHS will rush to adopt that model as it has no desire to keep funding medical interventions or progressively more expensive drugs.
Typewriter is very much mistaken with Gays hanging on to the coat tails of the black civil movement. We had our own movement. The Gay community has NEVER said that we are a more advanced version of humanity than straight people…that is just putting false words into our mouths. Biblical quotations have been cherry picked, translated, written and rewritten since Christianity started to serve the powers that be at the time. King James’ Bible?Dead Sea Scrolls? The Gnostic Gospels? Using them is putting far too much faith in Humanity to avoid the corruption of power to alter to its own means.
Eddy…HIV drugs are sometimes not well tolerated by people but the side effects will generally go after a month or two as it’s the body’s reaction to a new drug that is what side effects are. If side effects persist then the drug regime is changed if there are options left.
HIV drugs now are often a hell of a LOT better than they used to be and they get reviewed all the time to assess which one is the best one with minimal side effects.
No one is suggesting that HIV drugs are a breeze but they are better than being forced to have them every 4 hours when now they are more commonly 1 or 2 a day!
Last year I found myself being bullied for expressing my concerns about the Hardcell.org.uk site reaching lgbt youth through an e-group called ( LGBTHEALTHUK )
My concerns were that THT who engage with teenagers some below the age of consent are enabling LGBT youth to crossover to hard-core drug n’ S & M scenes with the information THT in partnership with others market as gay lifestyle.
The Director of Pink Therapy stated online that – If one is in a relationship where one gets beaten and abused then a sauna or dungeon is probably a much safer place……this was shocking and deeply offensive and an insult to anyone who has ever been the victim of domestic violence.
As a result of expressing legitimate concerns I came under attack by the moderator, a therapist and the one other person who I believe to be a health promotion officer. I received private messages asking me to apologize or I would be removed from the group. I was given a deadline for an apology. Comments were made about my judgment. I was bullied for not knowing enough about S & M by the therapist while the moderator took the opportunity to talk about the S & M course that he had been on in America.
I think cruising grounds / sauna’s / S & M are promoted excessively – much more than general sexual physical or emotional health. The focus is on the place to have sex and the types of sex you can explore – on drugs if that’s your choice.
I have been suspended from LGBTHEALTHUK someone needs to check these guys out.
There is a charity called Witness – WITNESS is the professional boundaries charity. WITNESS aims to promote safe boundaries between professionals and the public. They do this by providing a range of services for professionals and the public and by working to improve public protection through policy and influencing work. There website is http://www.popan.org.uk/ It’s really important that people stand up to bullies.
Tom, like many staff and volunteers in these HIV charities I am sure you mean well but clearly you are so blinded by the politically correct protocols in place that you filter out all rational criticism of the sector’s policies and refuse to hear what is actually being said. Your sector’s inability to listen and take heed to criticism is why gay men’s sexual health is on the brink….
a) PEP: You mention rape victims. Reading this article it is clear that the author would agree that PEP should be prescribed to all such victims (a rape victim doesn’t seek to be raped and therefore any potential exposure to HIV is not planned/accidental). Why not read the article again and this time listen to what Gary Leigh is saying in regard to how this treatment has been abused thanks to THT marketing PEP as a gimmicky morning-after-pill for premeditated unsafe sex and as a result costing the NHS-us!!-millions of pounds!….
b) Criminalization of HIVers: You say it serves nobody yet it acts as a deterrent for this vile behaviour among a small sub-culture of pathalogical gay men while assuring those who are infected that justice has been done. And before you get on your soap box about both partners taking equal responsibility for unsafe sex, there are many incidences of men secretly removing the condom before penetration and the “victim” only discovering AFTER intercourse takes place….
c) Treatments: So, because they are getting better that makes HIV ok does it? Read my lips: HIV isn’t an option. Again, as the article points out, we must not let the improvement of treatments lull us into a faslse sense of security. Even if they were proven to enable a normal lifespan which they are a long way from achieving, HIV must still be avoided because users are dependent on the state and the strength of the economy for their supply. If either or both of these factors change then there is no guarantee that cheaper, less effective options will be prescribed instead, or in the case of a totalitarian dictatorship (which we appear close to achieving) will be withdrawn altogether. Then what? Will you still be trilling that “one a day keeps the doctor away” line? I think not….
d) Hardhitting campaigns: It is the same old chestnut – whenever referring to these campaigns your motley crew always mention the Tory party’s ice bergs and tomb stones which scared a generation into virtual abstinence at the time. But you never mention those hard line campaigns instigated by the gay HIV sector pioneers who sought less severe tactics than ice bergs and tomb stones to get their graphic message across and encourage gay men to reach for the condoms. I don’t think the author of this article is suggesting for one minute a return to 1985, indeed he clearly states his preference for graphic campaigns that convey the experiences of living with HIV and a life time chained to noxious AIDS meds….
e) “One person who died recently of HIV that I know didn’t stick to his medications very well but if you do then you have a stronger chance dying of natural causes and not HIV.” This comment does not even merit a response. The truth is that no one really knows how effective these medications really are, and as we all know pharmaceutical drugs have a horrible track record of turning out to cause more problems than they solve when the full effects are known many years down the line….
f) San Fransisco rates: I don’t know enough about this to comment, but would surmise that the hard-hitting campaigns were not sustained due to the outcry of the HIV sector there, and as we have seen recounted here they tend to resort to intimidation and bully boy tactics and stamp their feet to snuff out dissent and get their own way….
g) Play Zone: Finally, THANK YOU(!) for NOT defending Play Zone and denouncing the shameful incident at the CHAPS conference described in an earlier posting.
Tom, so, you think a life as a pill dispenser swirling alien, toxic substances around your system is ok? What planet are you living on my friend? You clearly need a long break from the HIV sector because you have been brainwashed with their outlandish and dangerous beliefs system. Get back into the real world!!
“So, because they are getting better that makes HIV ok does it? Read my lips: HIV isn’t an option.”
I think you’re missing the point here Robert. HIV is no different to cancer or any disease. Its just that, a disease. Is cancer an option? What about malaria, is that an option? Of course it isn’t. What Tom is saying is that its not the end of the world. There are treatments, albeit these are intense and not cures. This “not an option” theoretic only adds to the stigma of HIV. Its a virus. A potentially lethal one, yes, but so is malaria. Bear in mind, even the flu is fatal in the right circumstances! No one of sound mind wants to get sick, from ANY virus. And to insinuate that the actions of people with this virus should result in “criminalization of HIVers” is rather nazi of you.
I would suggest it is you who needs to move beyond the 1980′s blind fear of HIV, your reaction to tom’s post is akin to a histrionic fit. The correct thing to do is to educate people of the the facts around HIV and the risks of HIV medication in the event of infection, not about scary bogey “men secretly removing the condom before penetration”. If you think all men are like that, then I’d suggest a convent for you…
Addressed to Will: Whichever way I read your post, to me it is either totally lacking in common sense or taking the p*iss. HIV, as we all know, is an acquired and therefore easily avoidable condition; many forms of cancer and diseases like malaria are are not, so for you to compare them is like comparing oranges with apples, as PC zealots trying desperately to defend the indefensible are prone to do. Indeed, for some gay men acquiring HIV is a calculated lifestyle choice.
You have to be completely out of touch with today’s gay “scene” if you honestly think that the high-risk sub-culture of gay men to which Robert Latham refers to with regard to their indiscriminate spreading of HIV don’t exist. They do, and recent campaigns which seemingly set out to legitimize their meeting places under the ‘Play Zone’ code and the A to Z of extreme sex web site Hardcell.org.uk seem designed specifically to recruit more gay men to their ranks (“Curious’s” account above seems to suggest that young gays in particular are being cynically guided down that path by organizations sympathetic to THT.) There are even some gay men out there who make it a competition to see how many others they can infect over a weekend, and we have all heard of the poor sods who pass out in nightclub toilets or sauna cubicles on ghb and wake up to discover they have been been violated by goodness knows who.
No doubt it is extreme examples such as these who contributed to the British Crown Prosecution Service charging those responsible for the reckless and willful transmission of HIV with “biological GBH” which you and your HIV sector cohorts are now so up in arms about. You seem to care so much for the rights of such unconscionable people at the extreme end of gay sex culture and not a jot for those at the other end yet to be infected but who you appear to regard first and foremost as potential future HIV services users. Could that explain the real reasoning behind projects like Play Zone and Hardcell that are enticing gay down that road and mainstreaming the extreme sex scene? And why you do practically nothing effective to prevent negative men marching like lambs to the slaughterhouse? And you have the impudence to infer that it is my namesake who is a Nazi?
I suggest you look in the mirror. Your contribution to this debate speaks for itself and is the reason why 90-plus percent of people on this board have so far said enough to your sector’s myriad warped policies. Your time is up.
Anyone reading this who is appalled as I am by the grotesque waste of public money lavished on disproportionate and health-endangering campaigns like Hard Cell can make a formal complaint to the Internet Watch Foundation [http://www.iwf.org.uk/reporting.htm] citing the Criminal Justice and Immigration Act 2008 which contains the offense ‘Possession of Extreme Pornographic Images’ that incite others into extreme and dangerous behaviours, which THT’s Hard Cell clearly appears to flout…
The article states quite categorically that HIV IS NOT AN OPTION, a statement that most right-minded, caring people would not even begin to question or argue with and which Robert re-iterates above. HIV IS NOT AN OPTION! And then Will (not Nutland by any chance? Whoever ‘Will’ is he is clearly representing the gay men’s sexual health lobby’s interests here) opens his response by stating “I think you’re missing the point here Robert,” and then proceeds to once again bring up HIV stigma as a smokescreen and ends by implying Robert has Nazi leanings because he has told the truth and stated HIV IS NOT AN OPTION (you really couldn’t make this stuff up!). HIV IS NOT AN OPTION! In Will’s PC-programmed world, you see, to state the obvious (e.g HIV IS NOT AN OPTION!) only adds to the stigma of living Aids and evokes the blind fear of the 1980s into the bargain. HIV IS NOT AN OPTION! Never mind that that one single slogan – HIV IS NOT AN OPTION! – if repeated often enough and hammered home in every HIV campaign for ever more could prevent hundreds, even thousands of infections in the long-run if it also high-lighted the many downsides of living with the virus:
HIV IS NOT AN OPTION – graphic photos of how the virus could adversely affected your body and immune system a few years into the condition if you react badly to medications…
HIV IS NOT AN OPTION – the horrid side effects of taking such drugs, from diarohhea to chronic nausea…
HIV IS NOT AN OPTION – the possible long term side effects of the drugs ranging from cancer to heart disease…
HIV IS NOT AN OPTION – the fact that full-blown Aids can develop if you don’t adhere to your strict regimen of pill popping…
HIV IS NOT AN OPTION – the fact that hard drug taking will seriously hamper the ability of Aids drugs to work effectively, and in the case of crystal meth could speed up the transition to full-blown Aids…
HIV IS NOT AN OPTION – the effect on your mental health of living with HIV and the possibility of developing HIV-related dementia…
HIV IS NOT AN OPTION – the effect on quality of life and living on benefits and the destitution some are forced to live in because they have been shunted into third-world housing estates on the outskirts of society to be more or less forgotten…
HIV IS NOT AN OPTION! These are just some of the many downsides of living with HIV today, but the sexual health charities won’t publicize those and even work hard to prevent them being aired in the gay media. Why don’t they want people to wise up and start taking proper precautions to avoid the virus? it clearly doesn’t take Albert Einstein to work out why that is.
Now try claiming, Will, that HIV IS NOT AN OPTION!
“for some gay men acquiring HIV is a calculated lifestyle choice”
Some? Your mean a VERY, VERY, VERY small few…. if any. Don’t be so ridiculous as to label all gay men like that. This is a very irrational thing to say, And even then, that’s like saying people who smoke are willingly accepting cancer. It may be technically true, but it doesn’t mean smokers WANT cancer or smoking FOR cancer. To state that for HIV suffers is just stupid and uninformed. HIV is a virus, that’s all. One day it will be cured.
Your rhetoric is bordering on lunacy. “PC-programmed world”??? What the hell are you talking about!?!?!? Mine is the real world of facts on science, you’re is a demented fool full of paranoia about a virus, and your feverish screaming of “HIV IS NOT AN OPTION” only shows you’re not able to separate rational from the preaching of fear…..
Smell something wrong with your post, do we?
…in fact, I’ve seen this style before. You are one of those idiot religious nuts that feverishly rants here so often, aren’t you? Couldn’t hide the anger towards gays.
I remember Skinner/RealityCheck using “Codex” as a name before. The same anger, the same lack of rational argument. Codex is a book formed of parchment in Christianity, and means “the source of our word” in Latin. This the new tactic, is it, the fear of HIV instead of the “fear of god”??? The “Your time is up” crap gave it away. What a loser you are.
Nice try. Rant away, you religious nazi.
Riddle me this, Will: of the 2800 or so gay men who contracted HIV last year, how many of them were down to genuine accidents such as condoms breaking? If someone decides to bareback, which is fast becoming the norm these days thanks to your charities’ refusal to condemn the act, then they are making a calculated decision to potentially contract HIV having weighed up the consequences – e.g. whether the negatives outweigh the positives. Well, in the glamorous and sexualized way your deceitful and despicable sector has packaged HIV while simultaneously sweeping the many negatives that I list in my previous post under the carpet, gay men ARE now choosing HIV as their lifestyle, and let’s be honest here, acquisition of HIV defines a significant part of who you are and how you live your life. And when your sector uses terms around HIV such as “manageable” and lie that the meds can provide a normal lifespan, is it any wonder why 2000 (let’s be conservative here) of the 2800 gay men who contracted HIV last year made a lifestyle choice to acquire HIV by ditching condoms? It is people like you, Will, with your warped PC thinking that led them to their decision to do so. You have no more counter-arguments left. Each vain one you make people now see through and only hammers yet another nail into the PC sector’s coffin. Why not try repenting instead and asking for the forgiveness of a community you have cynically betrayed for far too long?
Codex you surely understand that trying to use commonsense, rationality and an appeal to self- preservation to some on this site is an absolute waste of time. Having said that, where else will one get the truth about homosexuality straight from the horses mouth. From time to time, the gays truly throw up nuggets of pure gold
Rob your reference to pornography is extremely apposite. Peter Tatchell on his site “outrage” advocates it and regards it has as being healthy. He questions any ban on any kind of pornography if the “the actors” being filmed are consenting. As long as there is no coercion, then any sex act is permissible.
Giving the gift if consensual and is a human right
“I remember Skinner/RealityCheck using “Codex” as a name before. The same anger, the same lack of rational argument. Codex is a book formed of parchment in Christianity, and means “the source of our word” in Latin.”
Get a grip man, to quote one of your colleague’s earlier posts. To imply that everyone one on here who disagrees with and questions the holy doctrines of political correctness is a religious nutter suggests the paranoia rests entirely with you. Codex Illumi is, in fact, an abbreviated term for Codex Alimentarius, and I use it to highlight a major issue threat against which thousands of health campaigners around the world are campaigning against. Namely Big Pharma/Big Government’s well-advanced strategy to criminalize natural health by restricting the sale of over-the-counter, life-enhancing and sustaining vitamins and herbs to the public by capping the strength of such supplements to negligible – e.g. ineffective – doses. Basically they are seeking to destroy the vitamin and health supplement industry so that Big Pharma can swoop in and take over the control and supply of nature’s resources, which in the current set-up they are unable to patent and profit from. Naturally I wouldn’t expect you to believe me as you work so closely with the pharmaceutical industry and they can clearly do no wrong in your eyes, but here are several links to enlighten and inform (oh, and for the record, 63 denotes my year of birth):
I am all for healing this world, Will, whereas you seem content to maintain a status quo that has destroyed, destabalized and demoralized the lives of thousands of gay men in the UK with an avoidable virus, but in your words, “HIV is a virus, that’s all.” I guess that sums the sexual health sector’s stance to HIV in a nutshell, really.
In other words no act is too depraved to be banned by the film censors if it can be proved that the actors are consenting. According to Peter Tatchell , in the name of Human Rights, there should be no censorship whatsoever on pornography. You and I know that whatever we think, especially if we think about it long enough, will translate into action. But we are dealing here with people whose thinking is so perverse that they have their finger irreversibly glued to the denial button, even as they pass under the portals of death.
PPS: I am willing to demonstrate my gay credentials openly and proudly. I was in my early 20s when HTLV3 hit, and have kept my finger on the pulse of progress since then. The gay sector-inspired campaigns were appropriately hard-hitting enough to persuade me to always use condoms, and I remain HIV-negative as of my last HIV test 3 months ago. I therefore feel somewhat qualified to be able to comment on the dire straits of gay men’s health today, and the appalling betrayal of the original HIV pioneers in the AIDS sector who implored safe sex at all times, and who would be advocating the same today. What are your credential/age, Will? I ask out of genuine interest, because I doubt that anyone of my generation could be so blinded by the reality of HIV and AIDS as you and your ilk clearly are.
Ah, now Mr. Skinner, isn’t it better that you are yourself when making up your lying rants about gay people and HIV? Hard to disguise your idiocy, isn’t it?
Lets be clear here: by your own admission, you don’t believe in evolution, you blame demons for schizophrenia, and the only thing you consistently do is make up lies to cover your stupidity in the limited areas you preach on. You have no credibility when you speak on anything scientific, or based in reality for that matter. A fool, in other words. And no one takes you seriously.
It really wasn’t that hard to see through your thinly veiled rubbish… stupid people like you find it had to impersonate anything other than stupid people.
You’re “appraisal” of HIV is even less of an insight then you attempts to convey the “word of god”.
Run along now, the is an image of the divine in a left over teabag somewhere in your kitchen for you to find and get new meaning from.
Codex/Skinner, give it a rest, you’ve been found out.
PPPS: One thing I DO entirely agree with you on, Will – this David Skinner freak IS a religious Nazi!
Well, well, Will, this get’s even more complex and yet revealing.
Well, Codex, I will labour under the assumption, a big assumption albeit, that you are not Skinner/realitycheck/etc.
Here are the facts:
HIV is a virus. Like any virus, it is simply doing what its RNA tells it to do:- survive and reproduce. And like many viruses it can be fatal. Gay and straight people are both at risk.
Unlike other viruses, it is stigmatised, which leads to ludicrous fallacies (like out Skinner friend), fear, and the unfortunate isolation of sufferers.
This stigmaatisation has led to suffers of this condition (its not a plague, or an unspeakable evil, its a condition like any disease) to not receiving the help and support that they need or deserve. Malaria kills more people worldwide then AIDS yet no one would castigate a malaria sufferer for it, and certainly not say to them “malaria is not an option”. Saying that is neither helpful, or constructive.
No one wants HIV. As no one want the bubonic plague. But IF you contract it, there is medication that can help. Its not easy, no, but neither is chemotherapy for cancer.
Remove the blind fear you have and the screaming of “NOT AN OPTION”, and let the medical profession give REALISTIC advice and support, and we can start to educate people. Not with fear, but with facts. And we certainly remove the persecution from our own community.
The religious “wrath of god” crap is not worth addressing, as its unfounded bigotry masquerading as fact. The idea that someone can interpret gods “will” from the bible and claim HIV is his “work” is down right idiotic and very “christian” of them.
This is a big thank you to Pink News for being so receptive to Killing Us Softly. Judging by all the feedback it has attracted, both personally and in this comment section, there is a clearcut appetite in our community for change in the governance of its sexual health. I should add that I spent two months trying to get my article picked up by the two leading newsstand magazines (that was before realising that Pink Paper is the best possible medium for gay-related info), but neither even bothered to acknowledged my emails. I think their wall of silence to such a crucial issue that affects the lives of all their male readers speaks volumes. Nothing more to say!
“Well, well, Will, this get’s even more complex and yet revealing.”
David, you’re as complex as a colouring book. Codex is you. Now I’m sure of it.
What I said still stands for normal readers. You can sit in your own self-made hell and rant away.
I have learned two new things today -
a) I have a Jekyll and Hyde split personality
b) I have the ability to type at supersonic speed from two separate IPS addresses.
Ooh Will, you are a flatterer!!
Codex, lying isn’t an option, as you might say.
“as you work so closely with the pharmaceutical industry”
Really? And I said this? One word: projecting. If you can’t make an intelligent case without lying, then don’t.
“you seem content to maintain a status quo that has destroyed”
What on earth are you talking about, you paranoid fool. No, you’re right, lets burn all HIV sufferers. You buffoon.
Keep your paranoid religious fears, they are of no consequence.
You are obviously correct HIV is NOT an option.
However, there seems such disagreement from within this thread that wuld make predicting an outcome impossible.
The most progressive and efficacious outcome would surely be to eradicate HIV. This does not seem possible under current arrangements. Then what about reducing its incidence?
Again, there would appear to be a lack of common purpose here, allowing for the different strains of thought.
Moreover, eradicating HIV, as seen in Leigh’s example, suggests gay redploy sexual behaviour to take account of it.
This is the gay nemisis and only induces the level of HIV in the community. Clearly, past strategems have not worked properly – even in those harsh days.
Current stategems encourage behaviour likely to produce HIV. Yes, you are right to argue that those who play down the effects of HIV are simply misguided. Logic therefore decrees one simple answer that has really not received an value here – abstinence.
And yes, this can only be brought about by enforceable isolation, common enough with other medical complaints in the past, and the re-criminalistation of homosexual behaviour as undesireable to both the health of the indiviual and the well-being of society.
We face hard financial times – they are likely to get a lot worse in the near future. Maybe, even worse than any of us can imagine.
Critical question will arise, due to sever financial contraints, about the apportionment of treatments. Already, severe rationing is currently taking place in Russia with the consequence that many diabetes patients are simply dying for lack of adequate treatment.
As time goes by, this will impact on other medical diseases.
Since now visible solution is available, what would you propose because things cannot be left to carry on indefinetly especially with the prospect of a serious down-turn in the economy?
Pringle, Skinner all in the same thread, all at the same time…. what a coincidence.
“Logic therefore decrees one simple answer that has really not received an value here – abstinence.”
No, logic doesn’t indicate that. As abstinence is “not an option”.
“re-criminalistation of homosexual behaviour as undesireable to both the health of the indiviual and the well-being of society.”
Ah, finally. And here is the real truth. (Great spelling by the way, didn’t they teach you how to write at school?) So, its not about HIV. Its about bigotry. Pringle, you never ceases to amaze me with your petty hate and debase attitudes. You should look up the bible sometime, and learn what Christianity is all about.
“Since now visible solution is available”
Indeed. This attitude occurred before:- Wannsee conference, Wannsee Villa, Berlin, on January 20, 1942. Ironically, also in the name of “Christianity”
And we all know what happened those people, don’t we?
And that’s all you’ll ever be, Pringle, a small minded fool with nazi ideals and low brow education.
Well done. You’re mother must be SO proud of a faecal afterbirth like you.
Why hasn’t my earlier posting to this thread, of this morning, appeared????? Strange.
This is a complicated situation. We need to simplify it but carefully. Let us consider FACTS. Here are just a few, from among THOUSANDS! I am pasting in only recent comments, made this month, August 2009.
All of the following quotes are clearly indisputable PROOF of the on-going grief and anxiety that is part of living with HIV for the rest of one’s life.
“I am a 52 year old woman and have lipo really, really bad. Can you suggest a lower dose medication that I can ask my doctor to prescibe. I have begged him to just give me AZT but he is so sure it isnt enough”
“I had bioalcamid filling in my wrinkles between mouth and nose. The esthetic outcome is terrible, too much material has been injected, and unfortunately I can’t stand the feeling that a stranger body, those nodules are in my face. Unfortunately my mimicry and smile have been also destroyed.”
“I have gained a huge amount of weight /fat whilst on Sustiva, 3TC and Ziagen. I changed the Ziagen for AZT recently and found that the fat gain (everywhere but my face and legs has remained the same).”
“I had experienced lipoatrophy in my face (had it corrected with a filler) legs, butt, a bit in the arms, on the sides of abdomen, (I was on D4t back then and Combivir for a few years. I have then switched to Isentress and Truvada, but strangely I am starting to notice losing fat in my hands and feet. My feet and getting more bonier, ankles and skinnier etc. and my hands more veiny.”
“it is common for resistant HIV to be transmitted. In this era in the United States, about 10% of people acquire a strain of HIV that carries one or more drug resistance mutations.”
“I have been poz since 1982, hereunder the drugs i have been taking for 12 years Atripla (efavirenz + tenofovir + emtricitabine) Combivir (zidovudine + lamivudine, AZT + 3TC) Videx (didanosine, ddI) Crixivan (indinavir, IDV) Invirase (saquinavir, SQV) Norvir (ritonavir, RTV) Viracept (nelfinavir, NFV) Last CD4:180 copies Viralload: 9500 Nucleoside and Nucleotide RT Inhibitors zidovudine (AZT): Possible Resistance didanosine (ddl): Resistance lamivudine (3TC)/ emtricitabine (FTC): Resistance stavudine (d4T): Possible Resistance abacavir (ABC): Resistance tenofovir (TDF): Resistance Non Nucleoside RT Inhibitors nevirapine (NVP): Resistance efavirenz (EFV): Resistance etravirine (ETR): Possible Resistance Protease Inhibitors saquinavir + ritonavir (SQV/r): Resistance indinavir (IDV): Resistance IDV/r**: Possible Resistance nelfinavir (NFV): Resistance amprenavir (APV)/ fosamprenavir (FPV): Resistance APV/r or FPV/r**: Resistance lopinavir + ritonavir (LPV/r): No Evidence of Resistance atazanavir (ATV): Resistance atazanavir + ritonavir (ATV/r)**: Possible Resistance tipranavir +ritonavir (TPV/r): No Evidence of Resistance darunavir + ritonavir (DRV/r): No Evidence of Resistance”
“My statement of >98% effectiveness is generous by many standards; other reputable sources put condom effectiveness at 96% or below. The average breakage rate for condoms is 2% (per CDC), i.e. 2 for every 100 condoms.”
“My friend has take Kaletra and other HIV anti-drug. His CD4 is 246. He gets diarrhea two times per day almost everyday even [though] he tried to eat safe food.”
“it appears that HIV infection (including untreated HIV infection) increases the risk for heart disease due to narrowing of the coronary arteries.”
“Gaining weight also contributes to diabetes risk and is common in both the general population and perhaps more so in persons taking effective HIV drugs. Your current HIV meds have not been clearly linked to an increased risk for diabetes but data on that is still limited particularly for etravirine and raltegravir.”
“I’m still having some issues with balance, concentration, headaches, heart palpitations, sleep issues ( I literally feel like I’m dropping in a rollercoster when I try to sleep) fuzzy vision, confusion – these symptoms are mild and intermittent but regular.”
“How long can a person live at cd4 of only 50, despite total ART adherence, and undetectable viral load, my cd4 count has remained a flat 50 for the past 3 yrs”
“Atripla was a pretty easy drug on me at first. Then came the cinematic, vivid and often just completely indescribable dream scenes where it at times was difficult to discern reality vs. just being asleep and on my Atripla-trip.”
“I have started wasting 2006 , I stopped the treatment then , my doctor put me in truvada in 2007 it did help my butt was getting smaller byday, I started my personal diet trying to gain wait but still I could’nt put the weight in right places like my butt and legs , and 2 months ago I started Nandrolene deca with protein suplements and herbs, for the 1st time in 3yrs wasting battle my butt is gaining some muscle and fat I am on better shape now. ”
“Hi, I’ve been on treatment since 97 and d4T did its bit on my face, bum, legs and arms. My face has been ‘fixed’ with New Fill. This has been done in the NHS(I live in the UK). My HIV doctor has prescribed me Steroids which has marginally helped on my arms and legs. However, my bum has gone forever!. What can I do?”
“I recently had a 24hr creatinine collection taken. My results should creatinine at 1.4 and GFR at 63. I am 40 years old 6ft 180lbs. and have been on reyataz, truvada, and norvir for 1 year. (1st regimen) I am shocked. Am I going to be on dialysis soon? Can I bring those numbers up or change anything about my normal routine, eating/drinking pattern? My doctor recommended I take another urine collection in 3 months and then if the numbers are still around 60 he wants to change the truvada for something else. He stated that number is too low for someone my age. I am worried. What should I do?”
“Effective HIV therapy often results in 5-15 pounds of weight gain on a variety of regimens.”
“You will want to discuss starting HIV medications as soon as you can. If you tolerate your medications for HCV, I would start your other HIV medications within about 4 to 6 weeks. Avoid zidovudine, which increases the risk of anemia while on ribavirin; also do NOT take didanosine (ddI), which can be hazardous due to a drug interaction with ribavirin.”
“Having HIV is anything but “normal!” Being diagnosed HIV positive is always a shock and a period of adjustment is to be expected. The more you learn about HIV the less frightening it becomes and the easier it is to live with. I would suggest you begin by reviewing the information on The Body’s homepage: “HIV Basics.” There you will find chapters, such as “Just Diagnosed” and “HIV Medications.”"
“I change my medication after 6 months I started it-before I taked Kaletra and Truvada and after Truvada and Viramun… after couple months-I start feel pain in my back-kidney arria,and everyday my face and my eyes quietly swelling -heavy.. I check witch my doctor urine and kidney-he told me results normal-kidney seems work ok. but I still no understand what can be reason for pain and swimmed eyes?? I dont drunk,dont smoke-my food quietly clean..feels like if someone got really drunk-and next day you see this person-and say-oh mu god. shut I change Truvada for something else?and what can be alternative?? I no want sustiva-its cause migrane depression-and I quite sensitive to it.”
“I’m outside my home country! and I just realized I miscalculated the amount of medication I needed while on this trip abroad. I’m on boosted telzir and truvada. The bottom line is, I will run out of Telzir 2 days before the end of my trip!!”
“Some readers have written in and complained of profound ongoing fatigue in spite of normal blood panels. There are two possible concerns that are often not mentioned in the replies to these people. The first is sleep apnea. I was diagnosed with obstructive sleep apnea after my docs exhausted (sic!) every other test. Second, many HIV poz people are coinfected with hepatitis C(HCV) and hep B(HBV) , but many coinfected people do not realize that they have HCV. All people with HIV should be checked for both HBV and HCV, two potentially curable infections that can lead to increasingly profound chronic fatigue and ultimately, in many cases, to death if untreated.”
“I was diagnosed as HIV+ in 1991 and have been fairly healthy. Currently, I’m on Viramune and Combivir. My t-cells for the past several years, have slowly been decreasing, and now are in the low 200′s. My doctor is contemplating changing my medication, however since my viral load is so low, it may be impossible to detect the particular strain of the virus, I have.”
“I was diagnosed with HIV 10yrs ago as of November of this year. I was pregnant with my daughter at the time. I have just turned 30yrs old in July and recently moved to another state just to get my head together. I have always been on and off medications sometimes Dr. recommendations then sometimes not. I have really never faced the reality of being positive however it has been very hard to get proper treatment when all it seems the Dr. would do is throw me on a pill and leave it at that. I have a hard time feeling as if that is all it takes for someone with HIV to live a longer, healthier life. I don’t have money so I don’t know how to seek more help when I am limited on the type of care is available to me. It seems that everyone in my experience has always passed the buck and all I have is just alot of prescriptions under my bed. I know that I am responsible for my own health but mentally I have not a clue how to begin taking control. I know I have a daughter to live for but I am barely living for myself. I don’t leave my house at this point, I smoke, and I am just plain depressed. I feel like I am tired of trying and picking myself up again and again. I have no support, no family , its just me and my daughter. I feel like I isolated myself because I wanted to just die in peace without all the whispers of those who instead of supporting me used me as there daily gossip when I trusted them with something so sensitive to me. I have no one to turn to. I have a doctor but he acted as if he didn’t even know how to read my Labs. I need help fast or I fear that I will not make it long. I know there is a good life for me to live I just need an angel to guide me to it. Please I need someone. I am tired and I can’t live like this anymore. I am admitting today that I am scared and don’t want to live like I am dead any longer. Thank You in advance for your advice”
“An editorial in my local paper bemoaned that the writer was saddened that his friend died of AIDS in 1994 just before the advent of drugs that would have allowed him to lead a long and healthy life. The editorial advocated that the readers should take advantage of free HIV screening so they could begin treatment early.
I wrote in a letter to the editor that while the new meds allow people with HIV/AIDS to live longer, that life is by no means healthy and that avoiding HIV infection was the best course. That editorial is indicative of what I see as a glossing over of the serious nature of having HIV and taking anti-HIV meds for long periods of time that is practiced by the medical profession.
I am 54, have been HIV positive for 25 years, and have taken anti-HIV meds for 15 years. During my time with HIV, I have been hospitalized three times, once with PCP, another time with an allergic reaction to Bactrim, and once with Viread related pancreatitis. I have taken AZT, epivir, zerit, DDC, DDI, sustiva, videx, viread, truvada, norvir, atazanavir, prezista, and issentress. Many of those meds had very unpleasant side effects – AZT made me nauseous and caused me to feel as if I was full of ants and sustiva gave me horrible nightmares and daytime delusions. All of the meds made me seriously nauseous and led to chronic acid reflux disorder.
I read over the years that doctors were concerned that the HIV meds would lead to disorders of the pancreatic mitochondria causing early onset diabetes and dementia. I watched as my blood tests reported that I was anemic and had liver dysfunction; due I was told by my doctor as a result of the HIV meds.
I am angry that my doctors never impressed upon me that an undetectable viral load does not mean that you do not have significant levels of HIV in you system, particularly in non-blood sources such as lymphatic and spinal fluid. The result of this low level infection is that year on year your brain and nervous system are exposed to the toxic effects of HIV. This low level infection in my case led over 25 years to debilitating cognitive and behavior disorders such that I cannot work. I am unable to follow conversations, multi-task, drive a car, control my anger and I am chronically depressed.
HIV has also caused painful neuropathy in my hands, feet and legs which has caused me to need a wheelchair to get around. I also have early onset osteoarthritis and osteoporosis. I take pain relievers for the osteoarthritis which further exacerbates my nausea.
As I told the writer of the editorial, HIV is not for sissies.”
I think that last quote, directly above, really sums up all the rest of them.
Living with HIV is clearly a NIGHTMARE for most, and if not sooner, then later. All HIV and AIDS education programmes have a duty and a responsibility to make this clear.
There is nothing wrong with fear of that which is dangerous. And there is therefore nothing wrong with instilling in others fear of that which is dangerous.
HIV and AIDS education programmes in this country desperately need to alter course.
As the article points out, Will, a business as usual approach to sexual health will impose an increasingly intolerable burden on the NHS and its ability to finance anti-retrovirals in the long-term. HIV needs to be mitigated if not for the good health and well-being of the gay man on the street then in the event that the endless supply of state-funded meds will in the hands of a future government or a deteriorating economic climate be replaced by less effective generics or, in the worst case scenario, be cut off altogether. HIV prevention today should be as much against preventing this doomsday scenario occurring as for all the usual traditional reasons we have been fighting against HIV since the 1980s, namely that it is an undesirable, terminal illness no matter how the sexual health sector may try to glam and “sex-up” HIV.
Well done, Eddy, on your excellent research on the reality of living with HIV, but I think we have to face up to reality – those leading gay men into such grim conditions care not a damn!
“HIV needs to be mitigated if not for the good health”
I have no argument with that. I am all for education in this area. The same as I would be for education around smoking, malaria, TB, and every other illness that can limit one’s life. What I do object to is the encouraging of the prevalence of the utter fear this virus has.
“sexual health sector may try to glam and “sex-up” HIV.”
I don’t think anyone with half a brain would seriously take HIV as anything but the serious condition it is, no more than Ebola is a “sexed up” skin care treatment. But stigmatisation of sufferers leads to people like Pringle/Skinner using that fear to carry or their own sick agendas, and ultimately a reduction in health support. Education doesn’t have to be graphic, or offensive, or fear-based… it has to be factual. Its up to people to take heed.
Well, Codex, let’s now spread those facts around. Copy and paste them all over the place! Let’s make one hell of a noise. There is major agreement on this thread that there has to be a massive change. Will and other people are right to worry that such a change could cause even greater stigma for people living with HIV and that is a real problem. But we can’t let more and more people contract HIV because of our fear of THAT by-product.
So the challenge is considerable. Without causing stigma to those who have HIV or AIDS, we have to FORCE gay businesses (from gay media, to venues, to pornography-makers) and HIV-related charities and organizations to radically alter their behaviour.
Let’s not allow this subject to disappear into the archives.
Gary Leigh, well done for speaking out and getting this article published. Let’s not stop here. Let’s get a campaign under way.
“HIV prevention today should be as much against preventing this doomsday scenario occurring” – yes, I agree. But not with misinformation, of any kind. Linda you’re right on the “Pringle/Skinner using that fear to carry or their own sick agendas”, but they are irrelevant. Thankfully we live in a democracy where their lunacy win relation to HIV is not accepted as the norm. But the rest I agree with, so I won’t regurgitate what I have already said.
What must be apparent to everyone , apart from Will, is that Pringle, Eddy, Codex and Skinner are separate, distinguishable entities. Clearly any one who disagrees with Will is labelled a “ Skinner”. This lack of discernment and blindness is not only NOT genetic, or even a symptom of being homosexual but simply self – induced (and for which, sadly, there is no known human cure) but worse than HIV and AIDs.
Linda-O, could you rephrase this please: “What I do object to is the encouraging of the prevalence of the utter fear this virus has.” (It doesn’t make sense. As it stands you are saying you don’t like the virus experiencing fear!)
“Education . . . has to be factual.” Yes, I agree, Linda. And if those FACTS cause fear? I hope you won’t then advocate pulling them out of the way and hiding them, and so stop people from experiencing the fear that those facts produce?
Fear of fear is irrational, silly, and dangerous. Fear is one of humankind’s most powerful and motivating emotions. Let’s be thankful for it and use it.
Fear is what stops you walking to close to the edge of a cliff and slipping to your death on the rocks beneath. FACT.
Fear is what caused tens of thousands of Britons, Commonwealth citizens, and American soldiers to fight the Nazis, and give their lives in so doing. We honour them every year for their bravery. So let’s just reassess inane reactions to the word “fear”.
Your exhaustive and comprehensive posting is a real insight into the nightmare called HIV/AIDS.
Would that such information become current currency.
As the article stated – the HIV virus has been glamorised through political correctness to cater for liberty and equality.
However, if this is equality – you can stuff it. I’d rather being healthier.
Skinner, you have proven yourself a bigot and fool on these pages for far too long. Go jump in the lack. Your words have no power. You’re the little girl who cried “Wolf!” too many times.
Will – if you are all the HIV lobby has to defend it’s undefendable policies then it is in serious trouble. You rant and you rave and throw your paranoid accusations around without exercising an iota of conscience or consideration for those poor gay kids lining up to aquire HIV thru the lobby’s inaction. Who will you accuse me of being for heavens sake? Posh Spice? If only!
Steady on, Sam (and well said, for your post at #26, by the way!). Will is no bad man! He’s been saying some excellent things on these threads for quite some time. Will is just concerned about the stigma that will be caused to people who already have HIV/AIDs and he’s also concerned that an atmosphere will be produced akin to sex-only-within-marriage or within a strictly monogamous relationship. I think these fears have to be taken on board. We have quite a challenge on our hands. We have to bear in mind what Will is concerned about while pursuing the other matter that Will is also surely very concerned about: namely, that HIV infection rates have soared.
“However, if this is equality – you can stuff it. I’d rather being healthier.”
Pringle, why are you insinuation you are gay, when you claim to be straight? You are in fact ex-gay, as indicated by all your previous postings. You even said (albeit badly) in this thread alone “and the re-criminalistation of homosexual behaviour as undesireable to both the health of the indiviual and the well-being of society.”. In fact, if I can tolerate intensely stupid people like you in an intelligent society, then you can at least show the same respect to others. God knows you have little else of substance to offer.
Eddy: “And if those FACTS cause fear”
And fear leads to stigma. Stigma leads to people not seeking help or testing, and ultimately denial. Denial leads to ignorance, and unfortunately spreading the infection. Rather like the way pringle is in denial about reality. Just look at how denial produces the anger and ignorance he’s suffering from.
Don’t get me wrong, I agree with you, there has to be a fear element… but hasn’t HIV had enough fear with it? IN the 80′s (granted I was about 10 years old) it was almost impossible to get an bloody honest facts about the disease because of all the hype and shame associated with it. Those were dark days for HIV sufferers.
Sam, I am not part of your clandestine “HIV lobby”, as you put it. Maybe take a frickin’ chill pill and less of the histrionics, eh? There’s a good chap. I am neither HIV positive or intending to be any time soon. I am speaking as a scientist, not a drama queen like you.
Oh, and Skinner, if a “symptom of being homosexual” is thinking the opposite to an uneducated buffoon like you, I’ll most certainly take that as a compliment.
for some reason, it seem with you anyway, stupidity is a symptom of the sickness that is religion. Pity there is no cure for that.
A scientist is probably the last person who should be commenting on such an emotive issue as they are some og the most close-minded people going and only identify with theoretically based solutions. Everything else is off limits to their rational and logical brains. For example Will, you are espousing in your email exactly what the hiv lobby are doing to avoid associating with hiv at all costs – pandering to the virus and glamming it up as something desirable. As surely as single mothers must have their council houses and illegal immigrants must be entitled to every benefit and service going in this PC gone mad country, no gay man is complete or one of the lads without his aids mess….
Sorry, last sentence should read aids meds!
Duh, I should also have said ‘to avoid associating hiv with fear at all costs’ – sorry, I am rushing these to avoid my boss’s attention (should be hard at work but this topic is too important to let people like Will ambush the proceedings)
Unfortunately, today, the social diseases of apathy and indifference infest the idealised gay lifestyle which invariably salutes conspicuous consumption and glorifies the vacuous and the trivial while paying lip service to – and even frowns upon – meaningful values like truth, integrity, compassion and comradeship; a fertile environment, in fact, for a new and deadly virus to emerge and flourish.
The gay lobby have up until now have successfully hung onto the coat tails of the black civil rights movement – but for how long?
For surely by now it has become self evident that gay liberation can in no way be compared to the coloured person’s demand to be integrated into society. Coloured people have not striven to be recognised as an evolutionary advance on the white population, as superior, but as part of the human race who beneath the skin are no different to their white counterparts. They have no desire to restructure marriage, family or society; their only desire has been to be able to play a full part in contributing to society by raising children of their own in families defined by husband and wife, father and mother, grandparents and grandchildren, uncles, aunts and etc.
Surely by now it is evident to all that the gay lobby do not want to be like us but to be accepted as an alternative race or tribe not bounded by the normal constraints that go with raising a family.
Their demand for marriage is bogus, there is no rush to have their partnerships sanctioned. Where partnerships do occur they are just as quickly dissolved. Children though useful as bargaining chips as human shields, as trophies, are not thickly burgeoning amongst their branches and for reasons too obvious to mention. Attend any gay parade with its strutting, cavorting and sweating menagerie of hot house plants and one can see immediately that these are not family orientated events.
It has been claimed by the gays that we attack them for being what they are, homosexual, whilst they never attack us for being heterosexual. But the reason they never attack us on this basis is that they do not identify us as heterosexual, a bogus Darwinian nomenclature. Indeed, they think of us as either as emerging or repressed homosexuals.
The truth is that we are only men and women whose sexuality, like playdo is capable of being pushed and stretched into all shapes and sizes. They on the other hand claim to be a step further in the evolutionary chain and therefore mandated to supersede and dominate the rest of society – in exactly the same way that Nazis promoted the Aryan race. We see here the same futile attempt.
Not for them the banns of marriage being read out announcing in a Christian parish Church that a marriage is going to take place between two live human beings – one male and one female. Not for them the invitation for anyone who knows any legal impediment as to why the two should not be joined together in holy matrimony ( such as a pre-existing marriage (having been neither dissolved nor annulled), lack of consent, or the couple’s being related within the prohibited degrees of kinship) to speak up or for ever hold their peace. Not only will they brook no objection to any sexual relationship they might wish to create; they will demand our full support – nothing less will be accepted. Any one not giving full support will be sent for re -education re- education re -education.
Up until now a child has been regarded as an entity in its own right, not as a means towards an end. It was not conceived with a view to supplying spare parts for other human beings. The child’s body was thought to be inextricably and dynamically linked to a person, a spiritual being with soul and will.
Up until recently the creation of one flesh out of two separate entities, one male the other female was regarded as an entity in its own right , in which body, mind and soul were inextricably fused together to create a new entity, the married couple, the fruit of which was often another entity, a child. Irrespective of whether this union brought emotional, mental or physical benefits such as children it was a marriage.
Ejaculating into a bucket, into the wind, into someone or something’s orifice, whether that be an animal, someone of the same sex or anything other than the vagina of one’s wife is an abuse and violation of the natural order and deserves everything it receives.
Skinner, don’t waste your time, sweetie. We all think you’re a bigoted fool. Like I said before, you’re the little girl who cried “Wolf!” too often!
Well said Eddy. Difference of opinion is one thing, but Skinner/Pringle hybrid are just fools with a very unchristian agenda.
“close-minded people going and only identify with theoretically based solutions”
Well, Sam, I’m sure HIV research would greatly benefit from your uneducated histrionics. Perhaps you can have a good cry when you drop a test tube? That’ll cure HIV, won’t it?
“glamming it up as something desirable”
Since WHEN did I say this? Please, show me the line, I’m fascinated. What sort of utter idiot are you to suggest that ANYONE in their right mind, would “glam up” a fatal disease like ADIS?!?!? Seriously. Are you suffering from head trauma or something?
What a moron.
Oh, and skinner/pringle, thanks for your cut’n'pastes, they’re as insipid and repetitive as ever. Cheers, I love lowering myself to your level, makes me thankful for the mind I have. I made a slight adjustment to your hateful rant, pringle, makes more sense now:
Unfortunately, today, the social diseases of apathy and indifference infest the idealised religious lifestyle which invariably salutes conspicuous stupidity and glorifies the vacuous and the superstitious while paying lip service to – and even frowns upon – meaningful values like truth, integrity, compassion and comradeship; a fertile environment, in fact, for a new and fantastic secular society to emerge and flourish…. as is happening now.
Been reading these comments with much interest, and I would agree there is a ‘conspiracy’ – for want of a better word – to keep the facts about HIV infection hidden from today’s generation of gay men. Flicking through the summer edition of FS (Fit & Sexy), the GMFA mag, for example, the evidence of this collusion is on practically every page.
i) The editorial starts promisingly with the request ‘We are looking for HIV-positive guys of all ages to share experiences of living with the virus.’ Oh great, you may think, they are going to ask Poz guys to explain how it really is to live an uncertain life not knowing where your health will be from one day to the next. But no. ‘This feature will tackle the issues of HIV invisibility, stigma, and the role HIV plays in our community’. How all very PC…and utterly predictable…
ii) Next (sidestepping the sleazy front cover of GMFA’s new sexually explicit ‘safe sex’ mag Hot Sex, which features cover straplines ranging from ‘Slippery When Wet’ and ‘Gang Bangs’ to ‘Safe, Sound and Ploughed’), there is the continuation of the diary of ‘Adam’, a 23 year old HIV-positive gay man. Again, nothing about the reality of living with HIV from him, just cosy, reassuring stuff such as ‘Being HIV-positive doesn’t make you any different. You’re not a changed person…’ and mild insecurities about potential ‘late night hook-ups on Gaydar’ finding out your status, etc. Damn, I had no idea being positive was such an easy ride!
iii) At last – ‘Top HIV Myths Exposed – Find Out the Truth about HV’… but don’t hold your breath people. Truth in GMFA news-speak are inane trivialities such as ‘not everyone at the sauna has HIV’ and ‘guys with HIV don’t always tell you they have HIV before sex’. Oh really, GMFA? You don’t say!
So there you have it, proof positive (excuse the pun). HIV prevention today is a total misnomer and a dishonest travesty – gay men are becoming infected because the seriousness of the disease is being obscured and the truth about the consequences of living with HIV are being withheld by GMFA and TNT. They have single-handedly facilitated the epidemic we are today faced with by whitewashing the truth and using the HIV sigma stick to hit out at all dissent, but there is enough evidence in this comment section alone to prove they have run an agenda of distortion and misinformation that has served to drive the epidemic forward. I hope we will see justice done as a result, and the heads of those responsible roll…
David Skinner – several hundred children dying of starvation every day as we bring tens of thousands of children into the world every day to start a new life. Is that the natural order of things? Is that a beneficial contribution to a world where we are now talking about massive food shortages and poverty and deprivation on an immense scale because of the escalating population?
“an abuse and violation of the natural order and deserves everything it receives.”
I love this nonsense. To think that a dysfunctional nutter like Skinner has the audacity to think HE knows what is “natural order”, when he has demonstrated he can barely spell the words. The very idea his interpretation “of scripture” is the “right one” is laughable, and quite pathetic.
The most obvious reason for his bile is he is either a closet case, or an ex-gay. His previous comments lend to ex-gay theory. And even that term is an oxymoron. It must be awful for him.
Surely by now it is evident to all that the gay lobby do not want to be like us but to be accepted as an alternative race or tribe not bounded by the normal constraints that go with raising a human family.
But attend any gay parade with its strutting, cavorting and sweating menagerie of tropical birds and one can just about see that these were indeed once human beings.
It has been claimed by the gays that we ( the humans) attack them for being what they are, homosexual birds of paradise whilst they never attack us for being straight men and women.. But the reason they never attack us on this basis is that they refuse to recognise that there are any longer such beings as straight men and women, only emerging or repressed homosexuals .
David Skinner, you seem to have ignored my earlier enquiry so I will repeat it.
several hundred children dying of starvation every day as we bring tens of thousands of children into the world every day to start a new life. Is that the natural order of things? Is that a beneficial contribution to a world where we are now talking about massive food shortages and poverty and deprivation on an immense scale because of the escalating population?
As for your most recent and earlier comments I have never claimed or thought that heterosexual men and women are “emerging or repressed homosexuals” or that gay men, lesbians and bisexuals are “a step further in the evolutionary chain and therefore mandated to supersede and dominate the rest of society”.
I have never claimed or believed that I am better than others. As a deeply spiritual person I see all people as a part of life and all of life as a manifestation of universal mind/the divine/one consciousness. So I do not think of myself in terms of being ‘better than’ or ‘superior to’ anyone else but equal to. I think in terms of power with not power over.
“one can just about see that these were indeed once human beings.”
Presumably then you consider me and all other gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgender people to be less than human. Well let me assure I am very human. I felt very human when I almost bled to death in 1996 after being assaulted, unprovoked, kicked/stamped in the head unconscious, shattering my cheek bone and fracturing my eye socket, and left for dead on Christmas Eve because of my sexual orientation.
Im not mentioning that to illicit pity but to echo the sentiment of ‘prick me do I not bleed’.
I am a son, a brother, an uncle. Like you I need food and water, I breath the same air, I share the same desires for loving and being loved, for safety, security, comfort, to right the worlds wrongs. Yes I can assure you I am indeed very human.
I have been in a stable relationship with the same man for 12 years. And while for obvious reasons that relationship is unlikely to produce children we both make a valuable contribution to the community in other ways. I am a support worker for two locally based homeless charities/social landlords and I provide assistance and help to the homeless, to people who have mental health issues, people who are struggling with drug and or alcohol dependancy, women escaping from domestic violence, those are some of the things I am involved in in my working life. In an earlier part of my working life I provided care to the sick in hospitals as an auxiliary nurse, whats now called a health care assistant. I have also provided care to the elderly in the community as a home careworker.
Anyway why do I have to justify myself to you? Who are you to make value judgements about me and my life? Come and walk in my shoes for a day or two sunshine!!!
What an archaic view of life you have of life Mr Skinner. Im reminded of a line from Blackadder. “…for you the rennaiscance was just something that happened to other people…”
“Surely by now it is evident to all that the gay lobby do not want to be like us but to be accepted as an alternative race or tribe not bounded by the normal constraints that go with raising a human family.”
Lies. Unless you have proof?
“It has been claimed by the gays that we ( the humans) attack them for being what they are”
LOL! You’re not human! You’re not even the afterbirth! You don’t have a shred of humanity in you.
“only emerging or repressed homosexuals”
You mean like you and pringle? The ex-gay movement is a fallacy. It’s a house of cards build on a foundation of lies. And you are one of those lies, Skinner. You very existence is a sham, and an affront to nature’s order.
“Anyway why do I have to justify myself to you? Who are you to make value judgements about me and my life? Come and walk in my shoes for a day or two sunshine!!”
21stCenturySpirituality, you are quite right, you don’t have to…. why would any of us want to justify ourselves to a degenerate like Skinner, a man with only a semblance of intelligence and the education level of trained dog?
Its fairly obvious him and pringle are powerless individuals in the real world, so this is their so called battle ground… and a loosing one for them too, as they neither have the brains or the grasp on reality to compete with the likes of us. Hence the need in their minds to demean other people…. Its classic text-book pop-physiology:- I am a worthless piece of crap, so I persecute others to make me feel better about myself and give me a sense of power. They are obviously rejects from society, and their own religious circles, outcasts with a lot of anger and wrath they cannot express in their daily lives, and powerless to influence our lives or prevent the “travesty” of our equality. Whether they accept this truth or not is irrelevant. Much like them. You, 21stCenturySpirituality, will always be more of a human being then they every could hope to achieve.
Hey Will, I know we haven’t agreed on many things on this forum, but I gotta say you dished it to Skinner good and proper. Well done mate!! Now, I think the best course of action is not to react and hope the Webmaster on here will see that he is not contributing anything in the name of wisdom to our discussions and remove him permanently.
Pringle (actually the Skinner character whose lies and distortions we have always had to put with here), at 22, stated:
The obvious truth is that if men stopped having sex with men then HIV/AIDS would vanish
That is a sweeping statement that is quite simply ridiculous given the fact that in the USA in 2007 42% of all new HIV infections were heterosexually acquired (Centers for Disease Control, Atlanta), and that worldwide HIV is a predominately heterosexual infection spread by unprotected love-making between infected heterosexual people.
In Africa and Asia, the USA, Australia, India and China HIV is a heterosexual disease. Heterosexual intercourse is now responsible for 70% to 80% of all new infections with the virus (see: Downs, AM; De Vincenzi, I: Probability of heterosexual transmission of HIV: relationship to the number of unprotected sexual contacts. European Study Group in Heterosexual Transmission of HIV. Journal of Acquired Immune Deficiency Syndrome and Human Retrovirolgy, 1996, Apr 1:11(4): pp.388-95. AND Wiley, JA; Herschhkorn, SJ; Padian, NS: Heterogeneity in the probability of HIV transmission per sexual contact: the case of male-to-female transmission in penile-vaginal intercourse. Stat. Med. 1989;8:93-102. AND Gray, RH; Wawer, MJ; Brookmeyer, R; Sewankambo, NK; Serwadda, D; Wabwire-Mangen, F; Lutalo, T; Li, X; vanCott, T; Quinn, TC; The Rakai Project Team: Probability of HIV-1 transmission per coital act in monogamous, heterosexual, HIV-1-discordant couples in Rakai, Uganda. Lancet. 2001 Apr 14;357(9263):1149-53.)
There can be no question in the face of such studies, and numerous others, but that HIV is a heterosexually spread infection which happened, by unique circumstances, to initially, and note that ‘initially’, to gain its entry to the devoloped countries through a homosexual route but that once established here it rapidly reverted to type and became, as it always was and will continue to be due to heterosexual profligacy and the heterosexual sense of invulnerability so prevalent in our societies and so wrong – as ‘Pringle’ exemplifies – a heterosexual disease spread primarily by heterosexuals.
But it’s profitless to play the blame game here. HIV is a sexually transmitted disease – as many others are – and there are simple solutions which can help to minimise the spread of HIV as there are solutions which can help to minimise the spread of all the other sexual diseases. That ‘Pringle’ (Skinner) persists in believing that it is a ‘gay’ disease is merely a mark of his own stupidity and his worship of Satan.
However, what makes him dangerous, what marks him out as a murderer and complicit in evil (a follower of Satan), is that he believes, or states to us that he believes, that us gay people simply have to stop having sex and then the HIV infection will go away.
He knows that this is an untrue statement so, by advancing that argument, and convincing others of it, he becomes a murderer, by denying those others the right to life through knowledge and truth he becomes complicit in the death of millions and must be counted as the murderer he is – a lieing, murdering villain whose deliberate misrepresentations and sleight of belief will cause many more people to die because he simply wouldn’t, despite being plainly told, accept the truth for he has erected some cardboard and paper between himself and reality, between himself and God.
Once again Pringle, Mr. Skinner, I invite you to find God and His love – I’ll guide you into His compassion and forgiveness. Please, I beseech you, give yourself to God’s love before it’s too late for you – before he damns you for all eternity.
Oh, and here are some other references to support my comment at 109:
Ellerbock TV, Lieb S, Harrington PE, et al. Heterosexually transmitted human immunodeficiency virus infection among pregnant women in a rural Florida community. N, Engl. J. Med. 1992;327:1704-9.
Hunter DJ. AIDS in sub-Saharan Africa: the epidemiology of heterosexual transmission and the prospects for prevention. Epidemiology. 1993 Jan;4(1):63-72. Review.
Venkataramana CB, Sarada PV. Extent and speed of spread of HIV infection in India through the commercial sex networks: a perspective. Trop Med Int Health. 2001 Dec;6(12):1040-61.
Adimora AA, Schoenbach VJ, Doherty IA. HIV and African Americans in the southern United States: sexual networks and social context. Sex Transm Dis. 2006 Jul;33(7 Suppl):S39-45.
Latora V, Nyamba A, Simpore J, Sylvette B, Diane S, Sylvere B, Musumeci S. Network of sexual contacts and sexually transmitted HIV infection in Burkina Faso. J Med Virol. 2006 Jun;78(6):724-9.
Ghys PD, Diallo MO, Ettiegne-Traore V, Kale K, Tawil O, Carael M, et al. Increase in condom use and decline in HIV and sexually transmitted diseases among female sex workers in Abidjan, Cote d’Ivoire, 1991-1998. AIDS 2002;16(2):251-58.
Katzenstein DA, McFarland W, Mbizo M, Latif AS, Machekano R, Parsonnet J, et al. Peer education among factory workers in Zimbabwe: providing a sustainable HIV prevention intervention. Paper presented at the 12th International Conference on AIDS, Geneva, June 28-July 3, 1998.
Padian NS, O’Brien TR, Chang Y, Glass S, Francis DP. Prevention of heterosexual transmission of human immunodeficiency virus through couple counseling. J Acquir Immune Defic Syndr. 1993 Sep;6(9):1043-8
“Please, I beseech you, give yourself to God’s love before it’s too late for you – before he damns you for all eternity.”
Skinner is already in his own hell…. its a hell of anger and frustration made form the building blocks of ignorance, hate, stupidity, sexual repression and self loathing. And its the worst kind of hell… the hell where he has convinced himself he is happy.
Frankie, #101. Thanks very much for this report of a magazine I have never seen. I believe every word you’ve written. I’ve seen the same sort of thing elsewhere. The thought I have upon completing my reading of your post is: it’s probably fatigue.
I wonder if all this whitewash is symptomatic of fatigue with the awful reality of living with HIV? I don’t believe there is any malicious deliberate effort to encourage people into infection. Rather, perhaps for the reason of fatigue, they are dealing with the matter but finding ways of avoiding the most unsavoury part of it all, the kernel of truth, i.e. that if you get this virus, they can now help you to keep alive, but it’s an awful ride. Using interviews with very young guys is one way of avoidance. The literature shows that young people tolerate the chemotherapy much much better than they will when they get older. Also the systems of young people are capable of producing many more CD4 cells than when they get older.
This disease has been around since the 1980s. Just look at fashion, look at the newspapers, look at the way even reputable TV news programmes ditch old stories and GRAB anything new – it’s because even the best of us tire of old tales. We like novelty. I wonder how long the people of Wooten Basset will keep turning out to line the streets every time bodies come home from Iraq. The psychological effect on their day-to-day lives must be wearing. Human beings avoid discomfort and uncomfortable realities.
NEVERTHELESS, people at the helm should be saying, “No! We have a responsibility to keep informing people of the FACTS! If that causes fear, and if fear of HIV stops people from engaging in high-risk behaviour, well and good!”
Yesterday somebody on this thread suggested that “Fear causes stigma”. Full-stop. No! This proposition is not sound. Here’s why.
You have a tiny child. You live near a cliff. You MUST ensure your tiny child does not slip over the edge. You must educate him. You take him to the cliff and you explain THE FACTS. As long as the child looks at you deadpan, no sudden intake of breath, no enlarging of the eyes, you know he hasn’t got the friggin’ message! You have a duty to explain the situation more graphically until he does! And you will! Do you care for your child or not? Do you mind if he falls over the cliff and is splattered on the rocks beneath? Only when you are satisfied that you child has fully grasped the horror of the situation, the horror of what WILL happen to him if he goes too close to the edge, will you know you have done your utmost to protect him. IN DOING ALL OF THIS YOU WILL NOT CREATE STIGMA OR HATRED OF ALL OTHER CHILDREN WHO GO TO CLOSE TO THE EDGES OF CLIFFS AND SLIP OFF AND GET KILLED.
What kind of twisted educator would it be who in trying to ensure a child fully understands the danger of going close to a cliff-edge teaches them to HATE all other children who have fallen to their deaths, or to HATE all children who are careless and play too close to the edge?
It’s a non-sequitur. Fear of a danger does not place stigma on the victims of that danger. Stigma towards the victims of the danger is created BY OTHER MEANS.
So, I reiterate, there is no need to fear fear of danger. Fear of danger is one of humankind’s most valuable survival tools.
Will, #107, I salute your exceptionally fine refutations of Skinner’s idiocy. But, Will, you’re dealing with a brainwashed unthinking moron, someone who unimaginatively has blindly believed everything he’s been told by other religionists, someone who has no respect for rationality or science. You do a fine job, Will, but your exceptional positive energy would be better used elsewhere on these pages – not in dealing with a psychotic nay-sayer.
John M.J., #111, good for you for digging up references that completely flush away the crap spewed by Skinner and his other IDs. If he dares open his mouth again on the subject (and the fool will) you have proof that he’s akin to a badly programmed robot.
Obviously John.M.J you have not read a word of what I have written.
Ever since the sixties, when sex became detached from the boundaries of marriage and family and from the morality and truth of the Judeo/Christian faith, it has become merely a recreational activity that can be practised in whatever form one wishes; but, like high explosive that is no longer confined by its steel casing, or a nuclear core that is withdrawn from its protective surrounds, it becomes a force for destruction when it is no longer bounded by the protective laws that used to surround marriage. It has resulted in the dehumanising and the reduction of the individual to being simply a lump of meat, to the misery of unwanted pregnancies, abortion on an industrial scale, an explosion of Sexually Transmitted Diseases HIV, AIDs, rape, the continuing break up of the family and now teenage murders. So much for a “successful progressive and 21st Century society.”
The heterosexuals, in breaking down the barriers have given the moral right not only to the homosexuals to claim their share of the action (to public acceptance of their sexual activities) but also to those behind them who in dark places engage in paedophilia, incest, polyamory, polygamy, exhibitionism and even bestiality. These groups are known for their lack of restraint and for their risk taking. First the heterosexuals have validated homosexuality and now the homosexual has beckoned the heterosexual into these darkened cupboards . . Like a fire feeding off itself, heterosexuals are now encouraged to cast aside all restraint and seemingly outmoded inhibitions and to give full expression to their narcissistic instincts. All this has the blessing and funds of the government that propagates this sexual behaviour in schools, using agencies like the Family Planning Association.
There are no heterosexuals or homosexuals, only men and women whose sexual orientation, or any orientation for that matter, can be pushed in any number of directions.
However, let a young person once experience pleasure from sex play with someone of his or her own sex , and the sex play will become that much more appealing the next time. Let a person experience pleasure from sex play with an animal or an inanimate object and that sex play will also become that much appealing next time. God designed sex and all our bodily functions to be pleasurable for a purpose and that was that we would irresistibly want to perform the action, not for its own sake, but to create a new entity out of two separate but complementary ones – a man and woman. . Pleasure is not the invention of the devil but something that he has taken and perverted . Habit can shape behaviour; if the pleasure and the relief are such as to outweigh someone’s sense of guilt and shame, that person can become as hooked to either heterosexual or homosexual pleasure as a smoker to cigarettes , an alcoholic to whiskey , a junkie to heroin , or, even an alarmingly high proportion of Christian men to internet pornography. When we start talking about behaviour, we might then note that some sexual behaviours can be deeply habit forming. While some people seem to move from one type of sexual experience to another, others get addicted in a serious way. For some, use of pornography may come to dominate their lives. A preference for violent pornography may grip their imagination and drive the person to fulfil their desires. Promiscuity, sado-masochism, and the use of prostitutes can all become addictive behaviours.
The chemistry of falling in love is a sort of addiction. It needs to be constantly fuelled to be kept alive. Adultery is addictive. Few people embarking on an adulterous relationship find it is a ‘take or leave’ matter from which they can easily walk away. They are hooked and get an intense thrill from the encounter. Then there is that powerfully addictive and disturbing preference for sexual intimacy with children. Having engaged in sexual acts with children, paedophiles always remain vulnerable to repeating such behaviour.
Because of the power of sex , habits, if uncontrolled, can lead inevitably to the disintegration of personality, integrity and eventually to either physical or spiritual death, or even both. Sow a thought, reap an action; Sow an action, reap a habit; Sow a habit, reap a character; Sow a character, reap a destiny.” What we have witnessed over the last thirty to forty years has been the steady adulteration of marriage and soon we are to see the homosexualisation of society. God have mercy on us.
Twat Skinner wrote above: “Ever since the sixties, when sex became detached from the boundaries of marriage and family and from the morality and truth of the Judeo/Christian faith, it has become merely a recreational activity that can be practised in whatever form one wishes”.
Twat Skinner laughably BELIEVES that until the 1960s all human sexual activity throughout history was confined within the “boundaries of marriage and family” and within “the morality and truth of the Judeo/Christian faith”.
Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha!
What a prat, twat, prat, twat, prat, twat, prat, twat, prat, twat!
“The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like.”
And Skinner, you are guilty of many of these, hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions to name a few. ”
God have mercy on us.”
Indeed. God obviously shunned you a long time ago. So pathetic that you can only fall back on selective out-of-context references from the bible for your own hypocrisy. Is bad enough to be a fool, but a hypercritical fool one is an abomination.
Eddy: “Twat Skinner laughably BELIEVES that until the 1960s all human sexual activity throughout history was confined within the “boundaries of marriage and family” and within “the morality and truth of the Judeo/Christian faith”.Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha!”
Yeah, LOL! Could the man be any more stupid. Talk about displaying your ignorance for all to see and being proud of stupidity!
“You do a fine job, Will, but your exceptional positive energy would be better used elsewhere on these pages – not in dealing with a psychotic nay-sayer.”
Yeah, but he makes me laugh. I find his contradictions and unbelievable stupidity absolutely stunning, from a scientific point of view, of course. I would love to understand what wrong with his mind. I mean, its like watching a newborn gazelle trying to walk.
I must express some surprise to the reaction to my last posting at 96.
This quotation; which has great resonance; is simply a copy and paste from Gary Leigh’s website.
Well pringle, so what, why would any statement you make have any impact on us, especially when you use so many lies to promote your own chriosto-gastpo agenda?
I assume Gary Leigh’s word is authority on ALL gays? Okay then…
Lets look at ALL “ex-gays”, shall we?
Lets hear from a British “ex-gay” leader admits he’s never been able to change himself let alone anyone else, and announces an exodus from Exodus. Jeremy Marks’ High Wycombe-based group Courage was granted a two-year “sabbatical leave” by the umbrella group Exodus International “to explore its new direction and practice” and then report back. Courage had been pursuing a mission to help “those caught between homosexuality and Christianity” by supporting them to take “the road out of homosexuality” through prayer, and in Exodus’ words to attain “sexual purity” through its renunciation. But now Marks, a gay minister, is quoted as saying, “We are definitely wanting to be separated from the ‘ex-gay’ label and be more focused on supporting Christians who are gay.” After fourteen years, he said, “None of the people we’ve counselled have converted no matter how much effort and prayer they’ve put into it. There is much more benefit to the honest view.”
I wonder why you would take such a defensive like of the futility of the ex-gay “movement”, when CLEARLY Mark’s comments proves its all a sham.
If you think you have the answers, you are less likely to search for the truth.
Studies have found that a general “connectedness with god” is associated with lower levels of education [Schieman et al. (2006). Journal for the Scientific Study of Religion (2006) 45(4):529-549.]. Prof. Kyung reports the findings of many studies into religion and intelligence, and these 39 studies since 1927, have found that the more educated a person is, and the higher one’s intelligence, the less likely someone is to hold religious beliefs. It shows that those with a degree in science are less than half as likely to believe in God as the general populace, and eminent scientists are nine times less likely.
Explains a lot about you two, doesn’t it?
Will, Will, Oh deary, deary me . Where does one begin with your claim that “Studies have found that a general “connectedness with god” is associated with lower levels of education [Schieman et al. (2006).
Your cut and paste deserves reprinting:
“Journal for the Scientific Study of Religion (2006) 45(4):529-549.]. Prof. Kyung reports the findings of many studies into religion and intelligence, and these 39 studies since 1927, have found that the more educated a person is, and the higher one’s intelligence, the less likely someone is to hold religious beliefs. It shows that those with a degree in science are less than half as likely to believe in God as the general populace, and eminent scientists are nine times less likely.
Explains a lot about you two, doesn’t it?”
Where on earth did you dig that up?
Well, Will, we can all cut and paste.
Nicholas Copernicus (1473-1543) was the Polish astronomer who put forward the first mathematically based system of planets going around the sun. Copernicus referred sometimes to God in his works, and did not see his system as in conflict with the Bible.
Sir Francis Bacon (1561-1627)
Bacon was a philosopher who is known for establishing the scientific method of inquiry based on experimentation and inductive reasoning. In De Interpretatione Naturae Prooemium, Bacon established his goals as being the discovery of truth, service to his country, and service to the church. Although his work was based upon experimentation and reasoning, he rejected atheism as being the result of insufficient depth of philosophy, stating, “It is true, that a little philosophy inclineth man’s mind to atheism, but depth in philosophy bringeth men’s minds about to religion; for while the mind of man looketh upon second causes scattered, it may sometimes rest in them, and go no further; but when it beholdeth the chain of them confederate, and linked together, it must needs fly to Providence and Deity.”
Johannes Kepler (1571-1630)
Kepler was a brilliant mathematician and astronomer. He did early work on light, and established the laws of planetary motion about the sun. He also came close to reaching the Newtonian concept of universal gravity – well before Newton was born! His introduction of the idea of force in astronomy changed it radically in a modern direction. Kepler was an extremely sincere and pious Lutheran, whose works on astronomy contain writings about how space and the heavenly bodies represent the Trinity.
Galileo Galilei (1564-1642)
Galileo is often remembered for his conflict with the Roman Catholic Church. His controversial work on the solar system was published in 1633. It ignored the correct elliptical orbits of planets published twenty five years earlier by Kepler. Galileo expressly said that the Bible cannot err, and saw his system as an alternate interpretation of the biblical texts.
Rene Descartes (1596-1650)
Descartes was a French mathematician, scientist and philosopher who has been called the father of modern philosophy. His school studies made him dissatisfied with previous philosophy: He had a deep religious faith as a Roman Catholic, which he retained to his dying day, along with a resolute, passionate desire to discover the truth.
Blaise Pascal 1623-1662 mathematical prodigy, universal genius and profound Christian.
Antonie van Leeuwenhoek 1632-1723 discoverer of bacteria, was most certainly a Christian
Isaac Newton (1642-1727)
In optics, mechanics, and mathematics, Newton was a figure of undisputed genius and innovation. In all his science (including chemistry) he saw mathematics and numbers as central. What is less well known is that he was devoutly religious and saw numbers as involved in understanding God’s plan for history from the Bible. He did a considerable work on biblical numerology, and, though aspects of his beliefs were not orthodox, he thought theology was very important. In his system of physics, God is essential to the nature and absoluteness of space. In Principia he stated, “The most beautiful system of the sun, planets, and comets, could only proceed from the counsel and dominion on an intelligent and powerful Being.”
Robert Boyle (1791-1867)
One of the founders and key early members of the Royal Society, Boyle gave his name to “Boyle’s Law” for gases, and also wrote an important work on chemistry. Encyclopedia Britannica says of him: “By his will he endowed a series of Boyle lectures, or sermons, which still continue, ‘for proving the Christian religion against notorious infidels…’ As a devout Protestant, Boyle took a special interest in promoting the Christian religion abroad, giving money to translate and publish the New Testament into Irish and Turkish. In 1690 he developed his theological views in The Christian Virtuoso, which he wrote to show that the study of nature was a central religious duty.” Boyle wrote against atheists in his day (the notion that atheism is a modern invention is a myth), and was clearly much more devoutly Christian than the average in his era.
Michael Faraday (1791-1867)
Michael Faraday was the son of a blacksmith who became one of the greatest scientists of the 19th century. His work on electricity and magnetism not only revolutionized physics, but led to much of our lifestyles today, which depends on them (including computers and telephone lines and, so, web sites). Faraday was a devoutly Christian member of the Sandemanians, which significantly influenced him and strongly affected the way in which he approached and interpreted nature. Originating from Presbyterians, the Sandemanians rejected the idea of state churches, and tried to go back to a New Testament type of Christianity.
Gregor Mendel (1822-1884)
Mendel was the first to lay the mathematical foundations of genetics, in what came to be called “Mendelianism”. He began his research in 1856 (three years before Darwin published his Origin of Species) in the garden of the Monastery in which he was a monk. Mendel was elected Abbot of his Monastery in 1868. His work remained comparatively unknown until the turn of the century.
William Thomson Kelvin (1824-1907)
Kelvin was foremost among the small group of British scientists who helped to lay the foundations of modern physics. His work covered many areas of physics, and he was said to have more letters after his name than anyone else in the Commonwealth, since he received numerous honorary degrees from European Universities, which recognized the value of his work. He was a very committed Christian, who was certainly more religious than the average for his era. Interestingly, his fellow physicists George Gabriel Stokes (1819-1903) and James Clerk Maxwell (1831-1879) were also men of deep Christian commitment, in an era when many were nominal, apathetic, or anti-Christian.
Max Planck (1858-1947)
Planck made many contributions to physics, but is best known for quantum theory, which revolutionized our understanding of the atomic and sub-atomic worlds. In his 1937 lecture “Religion and Naturwissenschaft,” Planck expressed the view that God is everywhere present, and held that “the holiness of the unintelligible Godhead is conveyed by the holiness of symbols.” Planck was a churchwarden from 1920 until his death, and believed in an almighty, all-knowing, beneficent God (though not necessarily a personal one). Both science and religion wage a “tireless battle against skepticism and dogmatism, against unbelief and superstition” with the goal “toward God!”
George Washington Carver c. 1864-1943 pioneer in chemurgy
Arthur Stanley Eddington 1882-1944 the astronomer who ruled stellar theory
Albert Einstein (1879-1955)
Einstein is probably the best known and most highly revered scientist of the twentieth century, and is associated with major revolutions in our thinking about time, gravity, and the conversion of matter to energy (E=mc2). Although never coming to a belief in a personal god, he recognized the impossibility of a non-created universe. The Encyclopedia Britannica says of him: “Firmly denying atheism, Einstein expressed a belief in “Spinoza’s God who reveals himself in the harmony of what exists.” This actually motivated his interest in science, as he once remarked to a young physicist: “I want to know how God created this world, I am not interested in this or that phenomenon, in the spectrum of this or that element. I want to know His thoughts, the rest are details.” Einstein’s famous epithet on the “uncertainty principle” was “God does not play dice” – and to him this was a real statement about a God in whom he believed. A famous saying of his was “Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind.”
Wernher von Braun the brains behind NASA’s mission to the moon was converted to Christianity after a meeting with Gideons.
James Benson Irwin Apollo 15, July, 1971. He was the founding president of the High Flight Foundation, a Christian inter-denominational evangelical ministry based in Colorado Springs. Died in 1991.
Charles Moss Duke Junior, Lunar module pilot of Apollo 16, April 16-27, 1972. He is an active speaker and Christian lay witness and President of Duke Ministry For Christ.
John Polkinghorne ORDAINED AN Anglican priest after a career as one of the world’s top quantum physicists (his work helped lead to the discovery of the quark, a basic element of matter), John Polkinghorne vigorously argues that science and religion are not at odds. He served as the first president of the International Society for Science and Religion and helped organize the Society of Ordained Scientists. He delivered the 1993-1994 Gifford Lectures (which became the book The Faith of a Physicist) and in 2002 received the Templeton Prize for Progress Toward Research or Discoveries About Spiritual Realities.
Polkinghorne has written more than 15 books, including The Quantum World (1985) and Quantum Theory: A Very Short Introduction (2002). His books on science and religion include The Faith of a Physicist (1996), Belief in God in an Age of Science (1999) and, most recently, From Physicist to Priest: An Autobiography (published in the United Kingdom in October).
This list is by no means exhaustive. And I was led to the Lord, in 1970 through Leslie Kemeny, Australia’s top nuclear physicist.
Maybe Will you should read Melanie Phillips article in the Spectator, entitled, “Is Richard Dawkins still evolving?” This is a discussion between Dawkins and John Lennox, a Christian, Oxford Mathematics professor.
Maybe Will you need to get out a bit more.
Will, you said “I find his ["David Skinner's"]contradictions and unbelievable stupidity absolutely stunning, from a scientific point of view, of course. I would love to understand what wrong with his mind. I mean, its like watching a newborn gazelle trying to walk.”
Well, yes, I can see that Skinner could form a most interesting psychological case-study. I wonder if one would be able isolate specific mental junctures or departure points from which Skinner’s delusions took off, or whether, after hours of examination, it might all come down to simple crazy and stubborn pitch-black-blind “faith”?
“Where on earth did you dig that up?”
Why, you don;t agree with it, so its wrong?
I put in the study, its scientifically recognised:- Schieman et al. (2006). Journal for the Scientific Study of Religion (2006) 45(4):529-549.
Look it up up yourself.
Well lets look at the facts, shall we:-
You don’t believe in science, so you wouldn’t understand a study if it got up an kicked you. You’re hardly an authority.
You have proven to use false statistics by NARTH, who have been repeatedly PROVEN to be unscientific, but are unable to defend your own “findings” when challenged.
And finally, you have proven to be stupid.
That’s proof enough for me.
“Maybe Will you need to get out a bit more.”
I would suggest the same, only the hospital wardens probable wont let you.
Your examples are nonsense, they prove nothing. Ergo, your status as a fool, and an uneducated one at that, still very much stands.
Will, the fool says, “Maybe Will you should read Melanie Phillips”. Oh, dear, does this indicate that he doesn’t know that Ms. Phillips is a right-wing fool who only elicits admiration from readers of The Daily Hate . . . and unbelieving laughter from others?
What a sad protected little world in which this creature lives, eh?
David Skinner – Einstein definitely did not believe in anything like the kind of god you have in mind.
ALBERT EINSTEIN: BELIEF IN GOD ‘CHILDISH’
MARCH 2008 – A letter in which Albert Einstein dismissed the idea of God as the product of human weakness and the Bible as “pretty childish” sold at auction for more than $400,000.
….The letter was written to philosopher Eric Gutkind in January 1954, a year before Einstein’s death. In it, the Einstein said that “the word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honorable but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish.”
“For me,” he added, “the Jewish religion like all other religions is an incarnation of the most childish superstitions.”
Addressing the idea that the Jews are God’s chosen people, Einstein wrote that “the Jewish people to whom I gladly belong and with whose mentality I have a deep affinity have no different quality for me than all other people. As far as my experience goes, they are also no better than other human groups, although they are protected from the worst cancers by a lack of power. Otherwise I cannot see anything ‘chosen’ about them.”
As for the list of scientists, I note they were almost completely before the time of Darwin. Until 1859, the best possible explanation we could have had was Rev. William Paley – ‘a watch found on the common would have to be designed because it is so complex’.
THe point about science is that knowledge is cumulative. We stand on the shoulders of giants, as Isaac Newton once said; we pick up where the last man left off. Aristotle was one of humanity’s greatest ever thinkers, maybe; but any 10 year old could enthrall him today by telling him about the Solar System. Put him in an ethics class, aristotle would be up there with any philosopher., Put him in a science class and he would be lost.
People in the 1700′s knew nothing about micro-organisms, nothing about evolution, nothing about the geonome, nothing about electricity, very little about meteorology or astronomy. We have better better explanations.
Darwin would remind us no doubt, that, whether it’s explanations or living organisms – first attempts are always worst attempts. We simply have much better knowledge, and the concept of ‘god’ is now at the big bang stage. Deism at the very most.
The number of scientists who believe in a personal god now, are a tiny, dwindling band.
If you claim, David, that you are in touch with a god who listens to your prayers, cares for you, minds what you eat, whom you sleep with and how, you have all your work ahead of you to prove it. And the very best of luck to you, because you will be the first person ever to do it. But then again, there are as many gods are there are people who have ever been, or will ever be on this planet. Because you all talk about a personal god, and you are all certain, that your personal god is the one true way.
Natural explanations tell us our minds are easily fooled, evolved to be superstitious, to find reasons when there are none. Far more plausible.
Eddy – yes, you should read climate change denying, evolution denying Melanie Philips – comedy at its very best. Amazign she hasnt put up to be a Tory MEP yet.
Cool, Adrian, cool! Good for you.
Isn’t it extraordinary that these people who so vehemently argue that gods exist, don’t see how foolish they look without being able to produce a shred of evidence?
Adrian, if Skinner/Pringle give ONE example of someone who says something in their favour to fit their warped view, then them deem it logical to assume ALL must follow that pattern as well. Its a stupid small notion. Incorrect of course, its why they have no facts or figures to back up any of their statements, and why they find it difficult to accept science and scientific analysis.
Of course Will – have you notice how David bases his assumptions on gay people by the same 2 or 3 people? His theory explains Boy George and Gary Fitsch – but not the millions of other gay people who do not take drugs all weekend, or jump off rooftops.
A theory on gay people has to fit the experiences of all gay people. Simply by namechecking specific people, David makes an ass of himself, and his ludicrous ideas.
Remember, Eddy, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
“it might all come down to simple crazy and stubborn”
I’m going with the former. There is something very, very wrong with him. I’d say he wets the bed still.
Except for Skinner & company, youse guys are such an inspiration!
Time for a short break: here’s a riddle…
Though not a plant,
Though not a beast,
Though many wouldn’t need this thing
‘Tis more valuable than wine.
What is it? (Scroll down-n-n)
“I wonder if all this whitewash is symptomatic of fatigue with the awful reality of living with HIV? I don’t believe there is any malicious deliberate effort to encourage people into infection. Rather, perhaps for the reason of fatigue, they are dealing with the matter but finding ways of avoiding the most unsavoury part of it all, the kernel of truth”
If fatigue is the real reason these charities are leading gay men into a life of HIV as opposed to more sinister reasons such as their handouts from the pharma cartels, then these orgs must be disbanded forthwith and motivated, fresh people who know what needs to be done be funded to produce impacting campaigns in their place.
An earlier poster suggested becoming a health sector volunteer to change the system from the inside, but it doesn’t work like that. I volunteered once for one of the main charities and it became quickly apparent that the more you questioned the policy making that invariably came down from a higher, unseen level, the more you were sidelined and, in my case, a smear campaign was orchestrated to squeeze me out. You are expected to practice political correctness as your main language or you are quickly out.
In retrospect, knowing what I know now, I would never have volunteered my time so freely to what was really a government agency masquerading as a charity. These charities call themselves that in order to suck up additional community funds, but at the end of the day their main funding comes from the tax-payer via the government, and that is who they serve at the end of the day. Look up the term “quango” to learn what these orgs really stand for. Like most quangos (Stonewall is another), the sexual health charities are doing their best to waste our money on ineffective campaigns and overseas junkets and vast salaries while peeing all over the health of those they are meant to be safe-guarding.
Sorry, had to get that off my chest, and I am glad this forum has given me permission to do so. I hope this debate continues until real change comes.
This appalling level of debate at the latter end of this thread is as disturbing as the guidelines offered by current HIV/AIDS Organisations who think they are right when rising HIV figures indicate clearly that their approach is wrong.
I was on the original graphic THT committee in 1984 when we did not know how the virus was spread so I designed a SAFER SEX logo in the shape of a safety pin so that guys could wear a safety pin to indicate they respected the power of an unknown virus AND TO TAKE PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY FOR THEMSELVES AND OTHERS since nobody knew who had it. Fear is a great protector.
Twenty five years later we know how the virus is spread. There are no excuses. You either have respect for your body and others or you don’t. THT and GMFA are both guilty of sexualizing gay men with images no different from porn mags, enabling behavior approaching criminal and turning HIV into a manageable disease concept. Even a soothsayer would not predict the outcome of such a dangerous notion. Having BB sex or unsafe sex with chems is not freedom it is contempt for self and others who have to pick up the pieces. Gay Pride? You must be joking.
Thanks Dot – I couldn’t agree more. I have had similar experiences.1970
Dot and Swarmite, please stay with us. This has got to come to something. There is such agreement in this thread that a great injustice is being done gay men that something has got to come out of it. Your voices, as people, who have had some degree of involvement in such charities, is valuable.
Swarmite, I haven’t seen your name before. Ignore the arguing with Skinner that is going on at the end of this thread. Skinner is a sad religious bigot who pollutes many of the threads here at PinkNews. We don’t allow him to get away with his nonsense. We simply rebut and expose every piece of nonsense he utters. So just ignore this aspect of the thread.
Dear David Skinner,
The thinking behind 21stCenturySpirituality, a term I have coined to refer to a concept known as ‘New Spirituality’ or ‘The New Spirituality’, is not to invalidate traditional religious perspectives or to promulgate the view that more conventional or modern forms of spirituality and religion are ‘better than’ traditional or older religious perspectives, but rather to expand upon and enlarge the best of what works in traditional religious perspectives with the most healing and profound insights and wisdom of contemporary spiritual and religious thinkers.
Having said that, there are clearly ideas, concepts, principles and values promulgated and taught by some of the more traditional and older organised religions that are NOT working, and never have worked, to create positive and benificial results, experiences, outcomes, circumstances & conditions for human beings or the world.
I would agree with your assertion that the problems faced by humanity today are not new but are in actuality the same problems that humanity has always faced. BUT the answers provided by religion to these problems have clearly failed. Not all of the time, I realise, but most of the time this has been true.
Now, Im not of the opinion that all religion is bad but I do believe that rigid, inflexible, intolerant, oppressive religious teachings and ideas are among the most destructive and dangerous of human creations.
I think we need to consider very carefully some of our religious notions and the impact they have in the world and on our lives and to be honest about the level of suffering and discord they cause and create. And ask ourselves if these really are accurate representations of the desires of a benevolent, all powerful, all knowing, everywhere present sentient being/intelligence.
I think many of the problems we face, and that we have faced for a very long time, are linked to religious claims of exclusivity and infallibility and a closure and refusal on its part to incorporate and adapt in light of new insights, understandings and information that have stimulated growth, change and progress in other fields of human endeavour, understanding and knowledge.
I understand why you have found the security and safety provided by a rigid, inflexible belief system that teaches you that you are right and everyone else is wrong, that you are seperated from everyone else and have an exclusive monopoly on God and the truth appealing David but have you really given serious thought to whether or not some of the things you believe about God and life and whether or not the things your religion teaches you about God and about life are in actuality accurate and truthful representations of ultimate reality?
Have you ever seriously examined, explored and considered different perspectives about God and life or rigorously tested or scrutinised your beliefs in light of different perspectives and insights? Have you ever wondered why your religion so strongly discourages you from doing so?
Also David Of the 34,000 seperate groups identified within Christianity, of which yours is just one, how do you assess which ones interpretation of the bible is correct from the confusing mish mash of contradictory claims made about what it means? Furthermore, how do you assess the matter of interpretation and meaning in light of material in the Naghammadi Library texts, The Essene and Gnostic Gospels and the Dead Sea Scrolls and such, which show that the bible as we know it today is not the end of the story?
Robert Latham – I review constantly the latest HIV news, read the meta-analysis of medical studies and I am in close contact with HIV+ positive people. I do not get brainwashed…I purposely educate myself in order to help myself and others understand the impact HIV and medication can have on people’s lives. I do not take it as written when people within our organisation state their opinion; I double check the information out there and make up my own mind. I listen to criticism and discuss it with people all the time. Once we have discussed it, people generally change their minds.
a) there are a small minority of people who abuse the PEP access given to them but you have to bear in mind it helps far more people and keeps the NHS budget down. The cost of a PEP one month treatment does not compare to the cost of a lifetime’s worth of HIV medication. The information is out there and we by no means advocate risky sex but we have to accept that some people will not use condoms due to cultural, religious and other objections.
PEP as the article states does not lower the body’s tolerance to AIDS drugs…all side effects are strongest when you initially take it so a 28 day course of treatment may have side effects as a result.
It is not scientifically impossible to prove the effectiveness of PEP. Just inject HIV- people with HIV and then dose them with PEP treatment to see if it works. The problem is the morals and ethics of injecting people with HIV. It works on monkey but we all know that doesn’t really tell us anything about humans. It’s a minefield. The NHS has, over time, collected some data on whether PEP treatment works and reviews PEP treatment based on the evidence so far. However the data is not long enough to be conclusive.
b) The fact is criminalisation of HIV does not have any effect on transmission rates. There has been studies on this. Again not all sexual health charities follow THT’s line on this preferring to criminalise intentional transmission instead but the Law does have precedents for this, so we will see what happens.
c) One pill a day does not keep the doctor away and we never say that. However medication is getting better and side effects are being reduced with each new HIV drug released as the drug companies gain a better understanding of toxicities.
d) You have your opinion on this and it will not be changed. Why not join the HIV agencies and try to change from inside? Advocate for this and see if you can change people’s minds. If you are effective in persuading them then it will happen.
e) We do know how effective these medications are as people live longer and have a reduced viral load meaning it’s harder to pass on. People used to die of HIV within 3 years and now very few do. There are STACKS of proven research in this. You choosing to believe this is not true is irresponsible.
f) I have inserted a link on San Francisco previously.
And further…the medications have reduced toxicities. Raltegravir, one of the latest, has headaches, diarrhoea and nausea as side effects. That’s a damn sight better than dying!
David Skinner, re – World Population and the Isle Of Wight.
The question is often asked “Can the whole of the worlds population be fitted onto the Isle of Wight?”. It was certainly possible at the end of World War 2 in 1945, but what about now?
The UN World Population Counter on 25th October 2007 at 4pm was 6,756,489,070 people, 30% of whom are under the age of 15.
So, there are 4,729,542,349 adults and 2,026,946,721 children.
For every obese American and European there are at least 10 under-nourished adults in the world, so one average adult can comfortably stand on a rectangle 500cm wide by 400cm deep (=0.2 square metres)
4,729,542,349 adults X 0.2 sq. m = 945,908,469 sq. m
2,026,946,721 children X 0.1 = 202,694,672 sq.m
Total area needed = 1,148,603,141 sq.m
= 1,149 sq km
But, oh dear, the Isle of Wight is only 381 sq.km
We are going to have to chuck in a few more islands – fortunately we have plenty. How about
Isle of Wight 381 sq.km
Isle of Man 588 sq.km
Jersey 116 sq.km
Guernsey 68 sq.km
TOTAL = 1153 sq.km
1. It is no longer possible to fit the worlds population on any of Britain’s Islands.
2. It would be possible to fit the worlds population on our four largest islands, but only up to 2008. After that we will have to start using lots of little Scottish islands as well.
(Recent estimates say that the population of the world may rise to between 9 and 12 billion people in the next few years)
On that note, David, do you think it is possible that other things you believe to be true may now prove to be inaccurate or incomplete in light of new insights and information?
Tom, you wrote: “The cost of a PEP one month treatment does not compare to the cost of a lifetime’s worth of HIV medication.”
Replace “PEP” with “AN EFFECTIVE, HARD HITTING HIV CAMPAIGN” and you will actually have made a pertinent point at last. Oh, and Dot has already explained why point d), like HIV itself, is not an option. Seems like you, Tom, are cut from similar cloth to those charity workers described by Dot.
Swarmite, your posting is gold. Your voice, along with any of the other original pioneers, is vital in this campaign to expose the confusion and misinformation that today’s HIV charities have instilled in the wake of your classic HIV campaigns. Why not continue this series of related articles with one of your own, explaining how THT was originally formed with the good intent of a group of gay men who got together, all seriously committed to stalling the spread of HIV, and how your message and purpose was more or less infiltrated and ambushed by unscrupulous individuals and your mission corrupted. It is a story that needs to be told, as our community needs to learn the lesson of how it was stitched up and sold out so that it may NEVER, EVER happen again…
Oops, almost forgot. I have been doing some Googling on the San Francisco reference in Killing Us Softly, and not only did HIV rates substantially decline during the same five-year period from 2001 when UK rates shot up by almost 60%, it was even advocated that the virus’s status be relegated from epidemic to endemic status:
The San Francisco experience of hard hitting HIV campaigns = lower HIV rates is a no-brainer. It stands to reason that glamorized, dishonest HIV campaigns yield the opposite results. Isn’t that something a scientist should be able to discern with his eyes shut (eh, Will???)
Your comments here read like a banquet table overflowing with the very best the huamn mind has to offer.
And our Atheist friends have an equally scrumptious feast laid out for us.
(Skinner and company have a barrel of rotting apples.)
This is without a doubt the very best debate I have ever seen on PinkNews. I am so-o proud to be gay because of guys like you, Merci.
21stCenturySpirituality, I wouldn’t worry about Skinner and showing him maths, he’s not very adept at it.
I claims evolution is a “sham”, but his solution for explaining the fossil record is to ignore it! THIS is the level of his intelligence and knowledge… like the behaviour of a dog, if you can’t see it, it doesn’t exist.
“PEP as the article states does not lower the body’s tolerance to AIDS drugs…” (Tom)
It most certainly does! PEP is an assault course of HIV drugs, which is why almost half of the people prescribed PEP do not finish the 28-day treatment due to the chaos it wreaks on the body. As you more than most should know, many people have to switch treatments from time to time due to the body developing a tolerance to certain classes of AIDS drugs. Therefore logic, if not actual research itself which you claim to study, dictates that using PEP may or will lower your adherence to certain classes of anti-retros in the future should you acquire HIV and require them. You assert you are a worker in the AIDS mafia, sorry, industry, and profess to know everything there is to know about HIV/AIDS, but really you have shown you really know very little about nothing at all.
“Just inject HIV- people with HIV and then dose them with PEP treatment to see if it works.” – Tom
This shows the desperation of how far you will go to clutch at straws. Science is an ethical – or it was the last time I checked – industry, so the author was correct to state it is scientifically impossible to determine the exact efficacy of PEP. The fact is that no one knows, so if you are planning to have unsafe sex all weekend long and turn up to your local STI centre for a PEP prescription on Tuesday morning, you are playing Russian roulette with your health, as simple as that.
“The fact is criminalisation of HIV does not have any effect on transmission rates.”
Your proof? Whether criminalization has any effect on transmission rates is not exactly the point. Your HIV campaigns are proven to vastly increase transmission rates, so what point are you making here? Have you never head of the word justice? People who willfully affect others with a terminal illness deserve to be incarcerated as due punishment – and to be isolated from decent human beings who might otherwise be future potential victims.
“One pill a day does not keep the doctor away and we never say that. However medication is getting better and side effects are being reduced with each new HIV drug released as the drug companies gain a better understanding of toxicities.” – Tom
You would make a great publicist for Glaxo. Your passion for their angelic work seems to exceed any passion you may have for exercising some humanity from within your single-minded sector and preventing the need for a new generation of gay men to be popping any pills in the first place. But we can’t upset the status quo so long as big government and corporate funds keep pouring into the coffers, can we?
“You have your opinion on this and it will not be changed. Why not join the HIV agencies and try to change from inside? Advocate for this and see if you can change people’s minds. If you are effective in persuading them then it will happen.” – Tom
Eh? Go through what Dot went through? Get real!!!
Codex has already provided links to prove the San Francisco point, so yet another blinkered, brainwashed HIV sector loon to be totally discredited. Next?
Mr. Skinner at 113,
You said Ever since the sixties, when sex became detached from the boundaries of marriage and family and from the morality and truth of the Judeo/Christian faith, it has become merely a recreational activity…
That is nothing other than a highly selective view of the history of mankind – it is, in other words, complete rubbish. Throughout the ages, men and women have coupled as they will and as they want to but the difference in attitudes towards such couplings before the 1960s as compared to the attitudes after that decade is what bothers you most. You obviously wish to return to a world wherein the powerful sexual urge towards love and procreation is controlled by reference to spurious and often mistranslated, as I have often told you, so-called Biblical directives the result of which control was colossal unhappiness, depression, suicide and the victimisation of women by evil, Satan-inspired men such as you – men whose only aim is, and was, to control the sex lives of other men, and women, in order to validate themselves, their vapid beliefs and their own inadequacies.
You talk about the misery of unwanted pregnancies, abortion on an industrial scale, an explosion of Sexually Transmitted Diseases HIV, AIDs, rape, the continuing break up of the family and now teenage murders…
…unwanted pregnancy…? Such pregnancies are only ‘unwanted’ because of the lack of charity towards the putative mothers which you, and others like you, exhibit. You preach, indeed you encourage, hatred of the unwed female and thereby exhibit your spurious male-supremacist beliefs and your own misogyny. You do so with a complete disregard of history and with a complete lack of Christ’s love and with a complete lack of Charity – virtues, need I remind you yet again, which you are commanded to exhibit and exercise.
… an explosion of Sexually Transmitted Diseases…? Well, no, actually. Sexually transmitted diseases are, in fact, at an all time low in recorded history – see: Venereal disease, hospitals, and the urban poor; London’s “foul wards,” 1600-1800 by Kevin P. Siena; University of Rochester Press, 2004. AND Surgery, skin, and syphilis: Daniel Turner’s London (1667-1741) by Philip K. Wilson; Rodopi, 1999. AND A Treatise Of all the Degrees and Symptoms of the Venereal Disease, In both Sexes by John Marten; London: The Sixth Edition corrected and enlarged, 1709.
… the continuing break up of the family and now teenage murders…? Families have always broken up, or, historically most often, been forced to stay together in great misery because people just like you have, historically, deprived women of any independent existence and viewed and treated them and their children as chattels owned by the dominant male to whose world view they must conform, or be punished for not so doing.
Quite how you think ‘teenage murder’ statistics demonstrate your warped view of our world I fail to see since such statistics do not justify your worldview. In fact, fewer teenagers by percentage of the population, and such figures suitably adjusted, are murdered by other teenagers, or by anyone else, today than in any other period in recorded history – and that is despite the fact that teenagers are known to be bigger risk takers than other age groups in society. Frankly. Mr. Skinner, you attempt to mislead and misdirect here – as you, tiresomely, usually do.
The heterosexuals, in breaking down the barriers have given the moral right not only to the homosexuals to claim their share of the action (to public acceptance of their sexual activities) but also to those behind them who in dark places engage in paedophilia, incest, polyamory, polygamy, exhibitionism and even bestiality…? There is no logic at all in this partial quote: apparently homosexuals, according to you, have encouraged heterosexuals into some sort of orgy! Why would they, heterosexuals, comply with such encouragement if they were, as you assert, heterosexuals with no interest in any other form of sexuality? Then, in your usual dishonest, duplicitous and evil fashion you go on to attempt to link homosexuality with ‘paedophilia, incest, polyamory, polygamy, exhibitionism and even bestiality’ – a point of view which has been demonstrated to you time and time again by many at these threads to be wrong. I don’t think that I have ever met such a closed mind as yours’ is. You are, it seems, incapable of accepting any form of rational argument and its evidences preferring always to rely upon your prejudices born from your unsubstantiated, ill informed and heretical beliefs.
There are no heterosexuals or homosexuals, only men and women whose sexual orientation, or any orientation for that matter, can be pushed in any number of directions.? Time after time many of us here at PinkNews have more than adequately demonstrated that that is an unsustainable argument. We have quoted to you chapter and verse and outlined for you the fields of scientific research that support entirely the opposite argument and directed you towards the foremost authorities of our day in genetic research. However, you wilfully, and of your own sinful will, have chosen to deny God’s plan and His Creation and you wilfully erect your own ideas against the facts of His Creation as are being revealed to us by the great works of our scientific communities.
However, let a young person once experience pleasure from sex play with someone of his or her own sex , and the sex play will become that much more appealing the next time.? That is utter rubbish for which there is absolutely no evidence at all. Heterosexuals any age find homosexual sex distasteful, impossible actually, and against their nature as, vice versa, so do homosexuals forced into heterosexual physical liaisons. This assertion is nothing more than a product of your own overheated and febrile imaginings and of your fascination, your obvious and oft stated fascination, with under-age sexual activity.
God designed sex and all our bodily functions to be pleasurable for a purpose and that was that we would irresistibly want to perform the action, not for its own sake, but to create a new entity out of two separate but complementary ones – a man and woman. Pleasure is not the invention of the devil…? Well, that is the most weak of your arguments. What you are saying here is that sexual activity exists for the sole purpose of begetting offspring and that is plainly the most ridiculous and unChristian argument that I have ever heard anyone utter. Sex exists in order to draw two people together in a loving and caring relationship to one another and the children born from such a relationship are a happy, but (I grant you) necessary accident. Many heterosexual relationships do not, and cannot, result in offspring and no homosexual relationship can do so without outside help but that does not, cannot, invalidate the love which can be found in such relationships as ours. Your complete disregard of love and loyalty to ones partner is, quite simply, the most astoundingly unChristian words that I have ever read – do you think that the Christ would be proud of you for you having written those words, do you think that He will ever forgive you for so obviously transforming His loving Words into such a message of hate?
Adultery is addictive.? That is nothing more than a bald statement of opinion unsupported by factual references. Prove, Mr. Skinner, that ‘adultery is addictive’ by quoting reputable studies by known academics or trusted researchers.
Then there is that powerfully addictive and disturbing preference for sexual intimacy with children. That I will grant you is true but not in the way that you believe it to be true. It is a heterosexual need for such people as you are, but not necessarily you in particular, obviously, to have carnal relationships with minors or to be fixated, as you are, on such sexual acts – as I have adequately explained to you on other threads at this site and pointed out to you why heterosexuals are a disproportionate large factor in the sexual abuse of minors but you always, in your usual slippery way, fail to address that and weasel your way out of the argument with your usual appeals to your pre-conceived hatreds. The statistics from the Centers for Disease Control in Atlanta quite clearly demonstrate that child molestation of a sexual nature is a heterosexual problem and is overwhelmingly perpetrated by heterosexual people just like you.
…we are to see the homosexualisation of society. Rubbish! Complete and utter prejudiced rubbish. Homosexuals like me merely want equality before the law – as you well know – and we admit that we are a minority in society (certainly no more than ten or twenty percent). We merely want to be treated as equal before the law – law that we pay for through our taxes just as you do. The problem here is that you have no real understanding of the idea of the separation of Church from State.
You wish to impose a theocracy (an unChristian theocracy as I, a believing gay Christian, believe) whilst I simply wish to formulate a system of governance and government that allows you to continue to believe as you want to – erroneously, and damned as you are in my opinion – whilst allowing me and mine equal access to the law and to the constitutional rights which we pay for just as you do.
My dear duplicitous Mr. Skinner at 113,
I quote from your words: you said Ever since the sixties, when sex became detached from the boundaries of marriage and family and from the morality and truth of the Judeo/Christian faith, it has become merely a recreational activity…
“Homosexuals like me merely want equality before the law – as you well know – and we admit that we are a minority in society (certainly no more than ten or twenty percent). We merely want to be treated as equal before the law – law that we pay for through our taxes just as you do.”
Well said John M. J..
Although we are a minority, we are global. Its commonly understood that the same percentage of gay people exist globally, regardless of culture and what certain “religious leaders” say.
So, even though we’re technically a minority, we are a sizeable group numerically, and entitled to equality as , as you quite rightly say, we pay our taxes. The Charter of Fundamental Rights of the European Union alone lends weight to this equality.
Look at the math:
even taking a conservative percentage of 6% of the populous being gay:
UK: 3.7 million gay people.
EU: 30 million
Worldwide: 407 million
That’s some minority.
Of course, Skinner and friends will ascertain 2%. This is from NARTH, and that 2% has no scientific evidence, its just a figure they made up it seems.
Tom, #137: “Raltegravir, one of the latest, has headaches, diarrhoea and nausea as side effects. That’s a damn sight better than dying!” Hmmm. The ease with which you say “that’s a damn sight better than dying suggests a lack of empathy and sympathy with the person suffering the headaches, the diarrhoea, and the nausea! Are you not aware that headaches, diarrhoea, and nausea on a continual basis, day after day, is enough to cause depression and, eventually, thoughts of suicide? LISTEN to the people who are taking, and have been taking the medications. READ the tiny sampling of their voices which I posted above. Or would you prefer, instead, to ignore their voices and believe that you are a miracle-worker, a saviour, and a Mother Theresa?
Rob, #143, some well-stated points! Bravo.
Skinner, #113: “Ever since the sixties, when sex became detached from the boundaries of marriage and family and from the morality and truth of the Judeo/Christian faith, it has become merely a recreational activity”
A three-second turn to Google on the history of sex, brings up the following. (A thorough re-reading of Reahy Tannahill’s “History of Sex” would bring up countless pages more!)
“Since the worship of Dionysus [in Ancient Greence] involved music, dancing, drinking and eating animal sacrifices, it was inevitable that some group rumpia-pumpia would ensue.
The Romans weren’t noted for their restraint in god worship, particularly of Saturn, lord of death, and Bacchus, god of wine. As Christianity took hold, the no-holds-barred Saturnalia and Bacchanalia festivals were spoken of with disapproval; and the Latin orgia came to mean something depraved. But then, imperial orgies really were depraved. Tiberius Caesar, according to Suetonius, was a connoisseur: “teams of wantons of both sexes, selected as experts in deviant intercourse and dubbed analists, copulated before him in triple unions to excite his flagging passions.”
The word “orgy” passed into English in 1589, and evidence exists that the English were no slouches at group sex. Dancing round a Maypole wasn’t always mere skipping-with-ribbons. It was ritual phallus-worship, after which the dancers would head for the open meadows. “What clipping, what culling, what kissing and bussing, what smooching and slobbering one of another,” remarked the 16th-century Puritan Philip Stubbes, from his vantage point behind a bush.
After the Restoration, things calmed down. The orgy became the toy of the aristocracy. In England, its apogee was the rise of the Hellfire Club, founded by Sir Francis Dashwood, an MP for 20 years and a full-time rake. He leased Medmenham Abbey on the Thames. In the garden stood a statue of a naked Venus, bending over so that visitors walked straight into her bottom. He built a network of caves and passages under a hill, with individual “cells” where the friars could wench. The friars hired London “dollymops” and ferried them down the Thames on barges.
In France, the Marquis de Sade inherited the beautiful Château La Coste, overlooking the Vaucluse valley. Possibly bored by the lovely view, he and his wife signed up young male servants and pretty girls and subjected them to violent sex, cruelty and coprophagy, as depicted in The 120 Days of Sodom.
In the 20th century, orgiasts were disappointingly few and far between. The Bloomsbury group famously “lived in squares and loved in triangles”, but drew the line at actual group sex. Aleister Crowley, the writer and self-publicist, tried to revive the spirit of Dashwood by presiding over black masses, worshipping Pan and taking the motto, “Do what thou wilt is the whole of the law”. He moved to Sicily and headed a community of orgy enthusiasts.”
What the author of the above brief history of the sexual orgy has failed to include, though he is to be commended for what he has written, is that for several centuries shortly before the time of Shakespeare the Church maintained a string of brothels all along the south bank of The Thames (in that general area where now sits The Globe) and that some of these were actually staffed by nuns from convents elsewhere. Yes, that’s right, you didn’t read wrongly. Nuns did service IN the many brothels owned and run by the Church along the banks of The Thames. Southwark has been offering recreational sex to Londoners for centuries! It’s still going on today. Back then Londoners from the main side of the city would trot down to the River Thames of an evening where there would be many boatmen eagerly offering them passage over to the Southwark side for a night of fleshly pleasures. All this has been thoroughly researched, Skinner. The records can be accessed in the Bodlian Library, Oxford. I have a copy of the book.
So you see, you are absolutely and utterly WRONG in your belief that “sex became detached from the boundaries of marriage and family and from the morality and truth of the Judeo/Christian faith” in the sixties!
Let the scales from your eyes, man. Open your brain to the wonders of the museum of humankind!
Skinner: “God designed sex and all our bodily functions to be pleasurable for a purpose and that was that we would irresistibly want to perform the action, not for its own sake, but to create a new entity out of two separate but complementary ones – a man and woman.”
So how do you explain all of your ministers, vicars, priests, bishops, archbishops, and even popes who have been caught with their pants down rogering members of the opposite or same sex. How do you explain the recent Ryan Report in Ireland which attested to the sexual molestation of young girls by priests?
Can you not see that your statement is just a constructed theory – that it has no relation to THE REALITY.
Now, you didn’t construct that theory, Mr. Skinner. You have received it. It has been banged banged banged into your head, perhaps from when you were a little tiny boy. Don’t you think it’s about time you grew up, became a big boy, and turned around and questioned where this ridiculous theory, and all the others, came from, who made them up, and on what authority? Unfortunately, such theories were made up on no authority at all: simple, frightened, ignorant, primitive people several thousand years ago sought to cope with the pain of living and came up with a theory that the two thousand years that have since passed have proven unworkable. The theory is dying. Don’t be the last to be seen standing there trying to keep it alive.
I have to say I am frankly amazed that there have not been more HIV sector trolls out in force here to hijack the debate, as they normally do. I can only assume there must be some major AIDS-related conference going on in the Bahamas or somewhere nice. Just such a change to hear so many voices of impassioned and reasoned debate on this important issue. The moderator, however, should intervene and be removing those who deliberately and provocatively go off subject though. Skinner, 21stCenturySprirituality, etc.
…erm, or perhaps they are out here in force in the guises of Skinner, 21st Century Spriritualist, and because they can’t argue with the facts as stated, are trying to trivialize this debate and throw people off subject with their inane postings. Just a theory, but they are capable of doing anything to maintain the status quo. Look at how those ghastly government spin doctors manipulate, smear and back stab all dissent. Believe me, these kinds of people have no moral compass or ounce of compassion for anyone. How can they is those who set the agenda in gay men’s health know that their policies serve only to imprison gay men in a living hell?
“The Charter of Fundamental Rights of the European Union alone lends weight to this equality.”
Bogus EU parchments are about as useful as UN declarations.
“Bogus EU parchments are about as useful as UN declarations.”
Why would you say that? The Charter of Fundamental Rights of the European Union will become part of the Lisbon Treaty, and therefore EU law, if Ireland passes it by referendum, which looks likely now that Ireland has received the legal guarantees to protect its constitution.
Your comment give no alternatives, or proof of your statement, just a dismissive euro-sceptic rant, hence not very convincing, is it?
The Universal Declaration of Human Rights: 1948-2008
“The campaign reminds us that in a world still reeling from the horrors of the Second World War, the Declaration was the first global statement of what we now take for granted — the inherent dignity and equality of all human beings.”
Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon
“In the course of this year, unprecedented efforts must be made to ensure that every person in the world can rely on just laws for his or her protection. In advancing all human rights for all, we will move towards the greatest fulfillment of human potential, a promise which is at the heart of the Universal Declaration.”
High Commissioner for Human Rights Louise Arbour
The moderator, however, should intervene and be removing those who deliberately and provocatively go off subject though. Skinner, 21stCenturySprirituality, etc.
Dear Codex, Im sorry that you feel that I am part of the religious fundamentalist set who come into these comment rooms to spread hatred. Im sorry that you feel that my comments should be removed and that I am part of the problem. I am not trying to trivialise this debate. I am part of a forum that consists of Adrian T, Jean Paul, Iris and others, set up to deal with ‘fundamentalist crackpots who post on PinkNews’.
Im sorry if in my zeal to do that I have upset or offended anyone, or given the impression that I am seeking to ‘trivialise this debate’ or ‘deliberately and provocatively go off subject’.
Why not just ignore them entirely and they will go away? You are just giving them fuel because they like nothing more than to rise to the bait. There a far more important debate going on here that you have imposed upon and thrown off track. Angry!!!
Ok, fair enough, I will ignore them. I will cease my involvement with the aforementioned forum and no longer respond to or challenge the religious hatred and prejudice spouted by the likes of RealityCheck, SugarPlumFairy, Upandatem, David Skinner, Beltheshazzer and other similiar posters. Yes, I will ignore them. I will no longer engage with them in any way.
Come back 21st. We CAN fight many battles all at once and I am afraid that Sam will have to get used to the battlefield. It’s chaos on the battlefield, Sam. You can’t tell the enemy how they are to fight you. They’ll come at you from every dirty position there is! So you grit your teeth and take them all on!
Yes, I know, I too have suggested that people ignore the religious bigots who come stomping here, but seeing to them sharpens our skills, I think, makes us better fighters, causes us to think, causes us to learn what their real problem is!
I’ve been looking for you everywhere. Do you know that your profile has disappeared from the Members lists? I may have an answer.
By the way, I took the time to watch the whole of your Sam Harris video. Food for thought is one thing; Sam Harris is soulfood as well. Thanks.
@Will “The Charter of Fundamental Rights of the European Union will become part of the Lisbon Treaty, and therefore EU law, if Ireland passes it by referendum, which looks likely now that Ireland has received the legal guarantees to protect its constitution.
Your comment give no alternatives, or proof of your statement, just a dismissive euro-sceptic rant, hence not very convincing, is it?”
Lisbon my ass!
The Idiot Skinner is poking his long, pox-ridden-nose, in our intelegent discussions. The Skinner clown is so eaten-up with his psychopathic homophobia, little dose he realize that he is busily building his own Funeral pire…..hurry Skinner to his grave!
Rights, Charters, Treaties….All good things and all have their place in the Political sence. The aim of life is self-development. To try to realize your own nature perfectly, is’nt that what we are here for? The afore-mentioned are all words. Was there anything so real as words?
Bravo, Brian! “The aim of life is self-development.” Well said! So true! Wonderful to hear it being stated here. Religions so often crush all self-development. So many religionists have the mind-set of the primitives of 2000 years ago – despite the extraordinary advances of the world in which we now live.
Codex – I was very interested by your comment 140. The likes of THT and GMFA would no doubt be aware of that fact (as of course would the government and drug companies) and yet we have seen no push at all from any direction (other than perhaps our own) for the more hard hitting messages.
I would be interested to hear their comments on this issue – I’m not sure that there is anyone still advocating their position that is posting here
It has occurred to me overnight to ask those who proclaim that HIV drugs have now made everything hunky-dory and normal-as-before for people with HIV to bring forth their witnesses!
Bring forth your masses of people who know they have HIV, on treatment or off, and let us hear THEIR thousands of voices telling us that life for them is absolutely fine and dandy!
Isn’t it telling that on the other hot HIV thread at the moment, NOT ONE SUCH VOICE has stepped in with such a pronouncement?
“Lisbon my ass!”
Ah, I’m sorry, I didn’t realise you’re an idiot. You see, I assumed you capable of an intelligent remark, my sincere apologies.
Well done on mastering the keyboard. Next challenge is to write an articulate comment.
A few things here:
Rob: Your comments regarding HIV being avoidable. Yes, to a certain it is, but there are degrees of risk. Avoiding all contact with other human beings offering a fairly insignificant risk of contracting HIV. Engaging in any sort of sexual activity increases that risk slightly. Further increased if that sexual activity is with a ‘high risk’ group. Other factors related to lifestyle or career can further increase risk. So yes, avoidable, in the same way as getting run over is avoidable if you never cross the road. We are however human beings and we crave social contact and interaction. These contacts and interactions have the potential to increase our risk, particularly when HIV is now fairly well embedded within our community. We are seldom privy to whether our partners have had large numbers of other partners or even whether they share needles or use intravenous drugs at all.
Yes, there are those undoubtedly who do go out to seek the disease. I have always felt this to be the result of underlying personality disorders of some sort, and clearly these are not present in all gay people. Therefore it is the exception and not the norm. Frankly I always view this as a sign of a weak argument when it gets trotted out to prove some ‘point’ or other – it proves nothing other than the fact that like the straight community, the gay one has a few f+cked up people as well.
On that very subject, Robert Latham:
“And before you get on your soap box about both partners taking equal responsibility for unsafe sex, there are many incidences of men secretly removing the condom before penetration and the “victim” only discovering AFTER intercourse takes place…”
Another very weak argument I’m afraid. The number of people who have sex without a condom and then afterwards decide it probably wasn’t the brightest thing to do is infinitely greater I am absolutely sure. I have no doubt you can probably dredge up a couple of examples somewhere on the World Wide Web to support your view, but I think most right thinking people would agree more often than not the surreptitious removal of condoms is not rife.
Both of these issues to however lead us to the same point, that education is key to ensuring that people do not get themselves into situations that they regret (for the rest of their lives). If you have no idea were you are sitting on the risk curve, how can you decide whether that’s where you want to be? Very few people have a death wish, and yet, life-threatening behaviour is commonplace. I absolutely believe it would be a lot less so if people understood the risks that existed in a situation. Knowing the risks would not remove them but if would give people a fighting chance to avoid many of them.
As for criminalising those who pass on HIV, it all sounds good on paper but beyond all reasonable doubt, it is impossibly to be certain what has gone on in all but a few cases. Clearly there are instances where there is a clear pattern of intent, as with the case reported on PinkNews of victims being picked up off the Internet and drugged before being injected with HIV+ blood. However more difficult are the cases where two individuals have sex and one of the other then makes an allegation that they have been unwittingly infected with HIV. We may all have a view on how likely or unlikely an individual case may be, but ultimately the circumstances are usually only really known to those individuals, and even then if either or both are under the influence of drink or drunks, the situation becomes further unclear.
On the subject of barebacking, Codex, barebacking is now very common among the HIV population in London, from my knowledge, and probably much wider. The myth of cross infection for those on meds has been exploded, so further confidence has probably been lost in those would provided the message. It therefore might have been more honest to focus on the dangers of other infections like syphilis for example. Barebacking does not necessarily mean 40 guy with their backsides hanging out of rubber shorts all at each other in some basement darkroom in Kings Cross passing round god knows what, it can equally mean two people, fully aware of each others positive status, both on meds, taking an informed decision not to use condoms.
For those already with HIV the dangers of barebacking are significantly different from those without HIV. Your posting (62) to Will seems to only factor that HIV- people are barebacking.
Again however educating people to understand the types of situations that they should not get themselves into is fundamental to reducing levels of HIV infection. It is all to easy to sit back and say that people would have to be stupid to get themselves in certain risky situations, but, to be blunt some people are stupid, others may not be in a position to make rational decisions, others may simply be too unworldly to realise the dangers of a situation, many people, particularly in our major cities have come from other countries where the HIV situation is very different. The reason can be many, and can be both weak and strong.
It all leads us to the increasingly serious mess we are now in, and I really think it is time to go back to basics and stop focussing on the advances in HIV care once you have got it, or how you can be helped once you have compromised yourself. We need to focus on prevention and making people aware of what the risks and dangers are.
In the end I believe we are all responsibly for our own safely, but society is currently lacking by failing to provide people, particularly young people with the information and the tools they need to keep themselves safe.
(apologies – could load this all on as one posting)
(apologies – could load this all on as one posting)
I might even have meant, “apologies – couldn’t load this all on as one posting
A very interesting and complex debate. I most agree with the views expressed by Sister Mary Clarence who comes across as a voice of reason here. Im not sure how I feel about criminalising those who infect others. Perhaps this may serve to promote a witch hunt and revenge mentality which would not particularly useful or helpful to anyone. At the same time I think we should be aware of people who get raped and deliberately infected and I feel the needs of the abused should be paramount. But then I think why did the person who engaged in deliberate infection do that and what circumstances and conditions have we all helped to create in society at large that make such abuse possible? What can we do to stop that?
I think we definitely need to make people aware, to educate people, but also to try and instil people with a respect for life and respect and compassion for each other. Some of whats being said here seems to be about apathy, not seeing people as people, a mentality of carelessness and devalueing of others.
Umm, an interesting and complex dialogue. Ive been reading for about two hours now and I need to take a break. Very interesting debate, alot to take in and think about.
Codex, why have you lumped me in with the hardline religious fundamentalists who come here to promote hate?
I was not lumping you in with them, merely annoyed that you were perpetuating their argument but reacting to them and, in turn, letting this interesting thread which contains plenty of important points become submerged in religious rhetoric and counter religious rhetoric that is utterly banal to the rest of us and therefore made this thread lose its direction and impact. Next time why not suggest to those you choose to lock horns with to take your argument elsewhere?
Codex, in defense of 21stCenturySpirituality, there isn’t anywhere else to take the debate. Its easy to say don’t reponse to certain people’s posting on here because it just makes it worse, but does it? If we don’t challenge them here, do they get bored of the topic, or do they get the confidence to start spouting their crap in other places?
Im sorry that you find it inconvinient and awkward for hatred, bigotry and prejudice to be challenged here. I sincerely appreciate and respect that the issue being dicussed in this thread is an important and sensitive issue for you and many others and yes I firmly believe and support that we should be addressing the issues, circumstances and conditions it creates and that have been raised in this amazing article by Gary Leigh – all credit to him for working so hard to make a difference for so many who are suffering or will suffer as a result of the issue he speaks of.
Unfortunately the beliefs that myself and others are challenging and seeking to change here are beliefs that create and lead to killing, and violence and war on a massive scale. So, unless we play our own small part in challenging and changing such beliefs there is a very real possibility that in the near future no one will be having any debates about anything.
You see its these kind of beliefs that sponsor the kind of behaviours that lead to suffering and destruction around the world. Every murder, every rape, every robbery, every 9/11, every holocaust, every genocide, every baby P, every Matthew Shepherd, is a result of the things people believe about life and the things people believe about God – which in actuality are one and the same thing, the word ‘life’ and the word ‘God’ are interchangeable.
And, in large measure, these are the very beliefs and concepts that are and have been taught and promulgated by organised religions, particularly those religions that teach a message of seperation theology and exclusivist philosophy.
And, sadly, we are now well past the point where humanity can simply ignore or fail to respond to the destructive beliefs that create the very damaging and negative consequences and results we are seeing around the world in these days and times.
There is a video on my profile, Sam Harris at Idea CIty ’05, that discusses the issues I am speaking of here. I would gently urge you to consider its contents.
Hi 21stCenturySpirituality, sorry for being so hard on you. I get exacrtly what you are sayiong and thank God that there are still some enlightened people in our community who are prepared to challenge conventional prejudices from such a holistic angle. I am a firm believer that every action has an equal and opposite reaction, but we always tend to choose the equal option by fighting back, hence why in the 21st century our planet is still ravaged by wars. Maybe we should take the opposite approach from now on and tell our provocators how much we love and forgive them instead, and let them know we give good head for good measure; that would probably shut them up and make them run for the hills!!
Codex – probably the bigger things to do, but I’ll hold my hands up now and say that I can’t – even if I could ignore saod provocators directing their attentions at me and not respond, I would not be able to do so if I saw someone more vulnerable than me being set upon.
It never ceases to amaze me just how willing people are to betray their crass ignorance when it comes to an emotive subject like HIV.
Well intentioned as this article undoubtedly is, for every valid point Gary makes, he makes another point which is staggeringly ignorant.
I am less certain about the motives of those posting the 176 mostly ignorance laden comments. There are indeed a few very good points that have been well argued; but they are hard to find amongst the effluent and show that HIV education is failing in far more (and far more important) fronts than those identified by Gary.
Mark, you say in #177 that Gary Leigh has made a great many points in his article which are “staggeringly ignorant”.
Now substantiate your claim, below please, by listing those points, one by one, from first to last, and by explaining why you consider each one of them to be “staggeringly ignorant”.
Where exactly did I say that he made a great many points which are staggeringly ignorant, Eddy?
I would gladly spend the time disassembling Gary’s arguments point-by point .. if I was debating with a sane person, with no multiple personality disorder, who wasn’t prone to making the sort of bizarre claims that you are prone to making. But that one crass trolling misrepresentation on your part – combined with the fact that you have so clearly demonstrated that your idea of debate revolves around telling outright lies and fabricating ‘facts’ to suit your bigotry – shows that it isn’t worth doing what others have already done quite effectively.
I will save my breath for someone with the intellect to debate honestly and on the basis of facts.
Mark wrote at #177: “Well intentioned as this article undoubtedly is, for every valid point Gary makes, he makes another point which is staggeringly ignorant.”
The above statement from Mark means:
(presuming that “staggeringly ignorant” means “invalid”)
1. Gary made valid points.
2. But for every valid point which Gary made, Gary made an invalid point.
As Gary made MANY points in his article,
it follows that Mark has asserted that half of Gary’s many points are invalid.
Mark has been asked to substantiate his claim by providing point by point a list of Gary’s many invalid points.
Thus challenged, instead of presenting evidence for his extraordinary claim, Mark has chosen to simply declare that the person who has challenged him suffers from “multiple personality disorder”!
Mark has discredited his claim and himself.
However Mark remains invited to present a list of Gary’s many invalid points, one by one, from first to last, and to explaining why he considers each one of them to be “staggeringly ignorant”. Any such list will of course then be debated.
Thanks, Eddy, so nowhere can you show where I have said the “great many points” that you claimed.
I think that just shows that you are the ass in these parts. Condemned by your own lies again :)
I am just going to repat my post from the other thread and depart this place once and for all.
Forgive me for entering the debate so late in the day and for asking the obvious, but ..
What the hell is anyone in their right mind, let alone anyone from GMFA, doing by giving credence to a halfwit such as Gary Leigh by responding to him? And shame on Pink News for ever giving a voice to people spreading lies and the sort of paranoid fabrications which rank right down there in the darkest sewer, along with the effluent of AIDS denialiasm, or his friends who used to claim that using poppers was what caused AIDS. If this is really what Pinknews is about, then Pinknews is getting deleted from my bookmarks for good.
Lest we forget, Gary Leigh is the man who has repeatedly claimed that HIV agencies, and countless tens of thousands of doctors and researchers around the world, have secretly joined a mysterious brotherhood of global conspirators who have wittingly both facilitated and deliberately accelerated the spread HIV (and several other health conditions). Don’t believe me? All this and all manner of other crackpot theories are right there on his website: http://www.lifeormeth.com
Who in their right mind can really believe that such a conspiracy could go unnoticed for even a year, let alone nearly thirty years? The simple answer is that no one in their right mind can ever believe this, and that anyone who does believe is condemned by that belief.
It even as if this man is a credited authority in his trumpeted field of crystal meth awareness, so why should anyone believe that he is a voice worth listening to when it comes to HIV?
Since Gary so loves to quote people, here is a quote he has used himself:
“Condemnation without investigation is the highest form of ignorance.”
.. and the one concrete fact about Gary Leigh is that he has never lifted a finger to investigate anything and just made it all up on the hoof. That, and no other reason, is why Gary Leigh and his crackpot theories were shown the door by both THT and GMFA. The rest of this nonsense was just fabricated in a lame effort to exact revenge on those who called what they saw.
One is clearly dealing with cretins.
Barry, let Pink News readers make their own minds up between the rantings and ravings of HIV sector hacks battling for their survival against the awakening masses and those among who http://www.lifeormeth.com has succeeded in raising awareness and,in the process, empowered:
“I JUST wanted to congratulate you on such a fantastic website. I love the clear, focused and spiritual aspect to it all. I used to manage an HIV centre and now I manage an addiction treatment centre. It is refreshing to see the work you are doing here. Well done and keep going. You are a visionary!!” ~ Jac
“I COME to your site from time to time. I have been meth free now for 4 years. After being consumed by meth on Miami Beach my life was saved by a saint named Marc Cohen, who refered me to LIFE OR METH. Tonight I read the author’s article AID$ Inc. Uncovered
and learnt the history of your struggle. In it I read your reference of Marc Cohen inviting you to Miami in 2003 to oversee his groundbreaking meth campaign. It was just that same time when I found Marc Cohen while he was doing outreach in the very chatrooms that I was cruising, while binging on meth. I will never forget that man, his dedication and my second chance…and your site, LIFE OR METH. You all have saved my life, and through me, you have helped save others I have reached out to. I am grateful.”
~ Alan [email@example.com]
“I USED for 30 years on, have been clean now since February 14, 2001, and now do volunteer work for Cares Centre for AIDS Research and Educational Services here in Sacramento, also a non profit. Having been to many websites, LIFE OR METH has got to be the most informative on the subject of HIV and meth. I also write our newsletter to all of our 1800 clients and patients and next issue I will include this website. We have a large number of clients that have all types of addictions, meth being one of them. Although one can never learn enough about the disease of addiction, you cover many of the bases I have wanted to include and write about. Since finding this site, all my prayers are being answered! Education is the most powerful tool we can have and saves lives. Thank you.”
~ Michael Jentes [Jentes@sbcglobal.net]
“I JUST WANTED to let you know that you do help people, you do change lives, and that someone mentioned on your site – me! - has managed to pretty much come out the other side of the nightmare. Thank God I am not where I was before, people in walls et al! If LIFE OR METH does outreach, talks, putting up posters in pubs, whatever, I would love to be able to give something back for the help it gave me, and the chance to help others.
~ Aaron [firstname.lastname@example.org]
“RECENT REPORTS of gay meth use are showing a decline in most major cities. So, it looks like [my book] and sites like LIFE OR METH are having an impact. We as a community must work together to end this crisis in the LGBTQ community.”
~ Dr Ken Cimino [Author, The Politics of Crystal Meth]
“AS CEO of the UK’s only ‘gay men’s health charity’, I have identified 49 HIV+ gay male service-users who have ceased using crystal solely because of the data presented on LIFE OR METH, and who state unequivocally that they owe their improved health, increasing well-being and, indeed, lives to this site.”
~ Cass Mann [Positively Healthy UK, est'd 1986]
“LIFE OR METH is a good resource that offers a lot of helpful information and current news about meth.”
~ Northwest Portland Area Indian Health Board
“THE FOUNDER of LIFE OR METH, an unsung hero of our [UK] gay communities, is the only person to have warned us about the dangers and devastation caused by crystal meth usage and, despite being unfunded and entirely dismissed by the leading AIDS agencies in the UK, has been proved entirely right. Heads must now roll over the dismissal of crystal meth in causing HIV transmission by these self-appointed health chiefs, but all that will happen is that they will suffer the indignity of massive salary rises and promotions within their agencies. Why are gay men not taking to the streets in fury to stop this needless slaughter of our fellow men?”
~ Damon Silk [CEO, GMAF]
“The education department in collaboration with Montrose Counseling Center and LIFE OR METH has disseminated a crystal methamphetamine awareness campaign. 11 x 17 posters and post cards [based on LIFE OR METH's online poster campaigns], as well as advertisements in gay publications, have been distributed in GLBT venues and drug and alcohol treatment centers in phases throughout 2006. It is hoped that the campaign will raise awareness about the dangers of crystal meth, as well as refer people to HIV/STD testing by Legacy and addiction treatment options from Montrose Counseling Center.”
~ Eric Roland [Legacy Community Health]
“Visit the website lifeormeth.com to gain a deep understanding of your addiction and a reality-based picture of what this addiction does to the mind and the body.”
~ Trent Blanchard [Newstalk 920AM KSPI]
“TIP SESSO, 1 Distribution, Carnaval Films, Major Wood Productions, and the new Toxic Video have joined together to promote LIFE OR METH, a website dedicated to providing information about meth that [owner Sam] Manning believes is “one of the best put together” sites of its kind. Visitors will likely agree, since it is beautifully designed, includes a multitude of powerful and artistic meth awareness posters, and multiple text rich areas with resources, medical data, details about crystal culture, how meth affects AIDS risks, the issues behind meth’s appeal, and powerful first-person accounts of living with, recovering from, or mourning lives lost to the seductive killer.
~ ‘Darklady’ [www.ynot.com]
“THE BEST website ever on crystal meth!”
~ Positive Action [San Diego]
“AS A CHARITY, Gay Surrey (UK) decided to support LIFE OR METH by creating a dedicated page on our website to see the kind of response we would receive in our campaign for a better understanding and increased awareness [of crystal]… It soon became obvious that this was a major concern for all of us; the LIFE OR METH page jumped to first place under the support pages, a staggering result and proving the need for more support from organisations in Surrey and around the UK about how dangerous, harmful and life threatening crystal meth is.”
~ Gino Meriano [Chairman, Gay Surrey]
“AID Atlanta advertises in the gay publication David
Magazine, urging gay men who have used crystal to get a free HIV test and visit the web site LIFE OR METH.”
~ Dyana Bagby [Southern Voice, Atlanta]
“I AM VERY much impressed by the presentation and the quality of your research and your writing. I’m sure there are others, but I’m the only doctor I know who has an undergraduate degree in English and American Literature, so I know good writing when I see it!”
~ Dr. Joey [email@example.com]
“I KNEW that my addiction was ending my life. LIFE OR METH provided me with a moment of clarity, and October 9, 2004 I got my general relief, bought a bus ticket, and fled to relatives in Lubbock, Texas.”
~ Clint [XTwkrs.org]
“AS THE DIRECT result of the message I read here it has helped save my life. I was inspired to finally give meth up after seeing ‘meth mouth’ and ‘faces of meth’ and reading this entire site. Blessings to you all for the facts and information presented on this site. Thank you!”
~ Shawn [firstname.lastname@example.org]
“THANKS for this invaluable site. I am 39, gay, HIV- and have, in the last two months, started taking meth, and it has affected me greatly. I can see it has the potential to ruin my health, fitness, relationship and career. LIFE OR METH has helped me to at least begin to understand the power of meth and to inspire me to stop now.”
“I READ everything on LIFE OR METH in one day. I’m familiar with drugs and the harm that they can do, but after reading this site, I will never ever, ever touch meth. It’s a worthwhile webpage.”
~ Lara [Fourfour.typepad]
“A GREAT page graphically demonstrating the devastating effects of meth on society… This drug is nothing short of a hellish nightmare, and the more it’s brought into the light, the more the truth with be revealed.”
“FINALLY, a strong and unapologetic voice of reason in opposition to the enabling “harm reduction” modalities employed by so many health departments and ASOs! This site is outstanding in presenting a truthful and frank picture of what meth use is all about.”
~ John Edwards, R. N. [BoulderBikerGuy@aol.com]
“THIS IS one of the most powerful and inspiring web sites that I have ever come across. I do wonder who the people behind it are…surely you must be angels. LIFE OR METH is infused with a holistic, spiritual and very informed message to all gay men trying to make sense out of an insane world…a bright point of light in a dark sky.”
~ George Woolerton [email@example.com]
“LIFE OR METH was a huge help in my recovery. I’ve been clean for 40 months and will never go back to crystal. I owe a sincere thank you. You don’t know how inspirational your words were to me at that time. I derived great strength from them and re-reading them over and over made me more determined than ever to not be controlled by crystal. Knowledge is strength and the more that I learned about crystal the more that I became determined to not let it write the final chapter of my life. I discovered will power that I didn’t know that I had. There is no greater gift that you can give a fellow human being than to help them overcome an addiction. Your efforts to help others will never be forgotten. I have since helped others recover and will continue to do so. I will forever be grateful to you.”
~ Phillip [firstname.lastname@example.org]
“I JUST spent the last few hours reading every word on this site. I would like to thank you for reminding me of things I was kind of aware of already but which were hidden away. You have given me some ideas about healing and some spiritual insights that have made my heart feel less heavy, and you’ve also given me more confidence in myself and made me think seriously about what it means to be a gay man. I feel so isolated from mainstream gay culture and lifestyle, I am indeed a black sheep. And you know what? It feels good to be an individual! Thanks from the bottom of my heart.”
~ David [email@example.com]
“I HAVE just printed out 10 copies of LIFE OR METH’s HIV poster to post here at our LGBT Health Center in Chicago. I really appreciate the work you have done to make this campaign accessible for all. All of our work on helping gay and bisexal men be healthy has been seriously hindered by crystal in the community.”
~ Daniel Pohl, D. I. S.
“I WRITE to you as a licensed psychotherapist who has been in private practice in Fort Lauderdale for 19 years. It was sad but reaffirming to have you articulate exactly what I have been experiencing and sharing orally with others; crystal IS the new epidemic.”
~ Richard [Fort Lauderdale]
“THIS SITE helped me and opened up my eyes. When I first started to read it, tears came to my eyes. An overwhelming exhale. I applaud the people who made this site and just want to tell them that here they saved a life. Thank you for bringing back the rainbows again, and THIS TIME THEY ARE REAL!!!!”
~ Michael [firstname.lastname@example.org]
“THANK YOU, LIFE OR METH, for showing me the truth and for helping me to save my life.”
~ Robbie M. [LSUROB25@aol.com]
“WHAT AN amazing site! Thank you so much for taking the time to create such an informative, truthful approach to a terrible, terrible disease.”
~ Curtis Brown [RascalCBrown@aol.com]
“I HOPE that you won’t mind if I refer to your website in my research. It is a valuable tool to us all.”
~ Scott Bloom [Tragoida Moving Pictures]
“I’M ensuring LIFE OR METH’s vital message is amplified for all of us to be empowered by, learn from and most of all, recover with. I will be happy if even ONE PERSON hears my story, derives empowerment from it, and stops using this terrible drug. I did, and it took LIFE OR METH’s message to wake me up.”
~ Anon [email@example.com / methfacts.org]
“I WISH I could post this site in a huge banner and fly it over South Beach…I believe you are doing a great and much needed public service…Your method of raw and uncensored information is what some of these people need in order to help themselves.”
~ Jorge [Miami]
“THANK YOU for sharing this incredible perspective.”
~ Michael [MensIJOrlando@aol.com]
“THIS SITE is wonderful. I’ll visit often. What I’d like to see come out of this is a national movement. Let’s get some groups together and start making this awareness an awakening for our communities!”
~ Anon [firstname.lastname@example.org]
“I SINCERELY thank you LIFE OR METH for giving me the information and support I need to know that I don’t want to hurt anymore.”
~ Anon [email@example.com]
“EVERYONE I have passed your information on to has said ‘Wow!’ They haven’t read anything that has affected them so deeply and spiritually.”
~ Jim [Miami, Florida]
“THIS SITE has given me hope.”
~ Mike [MLEVI29@comcast.net]
“LIFE OR METH will help a lot of people avoid ‘ice’, or at least help those who are using to quit before their lives are destroyed.”
~ BJ [firstname.lastname@example.org]
“AS SOMEONE recently clean from crystal, I just wanted to say thanks for a site that tells it like it is. This sort of thing is invaluable right now.”
~ James [email@example.com]
“THANK GOD for this web site and the people who created it, for now there is a ray of hope where there was only darkness. LIFE OR METH has saved my life!”
~ Samuel M. Hall [firstname.lastname@example.org]
“I CAN’T thank you enough for this site! It is so timely. I will spread the word. I don’t want to see any more of my buds become HIV+ through using meth.”
~ Biff [email@example.com]
“FOR ANYONE who has used and abused crystal meth, this web site really hits home.”
~ Guy [firstname.lastname@example.org]
“I WANT to thank you for such an important web site. I thank you on many levels: as a gay man living in San Francisco, an emergency physician at SF General Hospital, and one who has lost several patients and friends to meth.”
~ Keith L.
“UNBELIEVABLE! I was praying that I would find a site like this one!”
~ Anon [email@example.com]
“YOU MAY have saved my life today. Your site has given me the courage to begin again. I will not die this way! No matter what it takes. Thank you for caring so much for someone you may never meet.”
~ Franklyn [IZZWATuGET@aol.com]
“I AM an addict of meth. I have been clean almost two months now and I visit this site to remind me why i dont want to use again.”
~ Michelle C. [firstname.lastname@example.org]
“I HAVE never used [meth] and after reading the site you can be assured there is one more person in this community who will NEVER use it. The information grabbed me and pulled me in in much the same way Tina does to her users.”
~ Craig [Washington]
“MY FRIEND has been using crystal for most of the last week and he is a mess. He has every characteristic that I read on your site. It has helped me more than you will ever know. You have done a great thing for our community. Bless you.”
~ Jay A.
“THANKS for the wonderfully enlightening LIFE OR METH, and for helping me to realise that I’m not alone.”
“I COULD not agree more with your accurate account of the nightlife of today and the effects crystal meth has had on it. What a contribution!”
“THANK YOU for your site. As a mom, and anti-meth activist, it was a pleasant surprise to find that I AM NOT alone!!!”
~ Mom [email@example.com]
“I AM sitting here at my parents’ house with tears in my eyes, having just read LIFE OR METH. Bravo on holding up this mirror for the gay community to look into.”
~ Bob [RefugeeLANYPH@aol.com]
“THANKS for being brave enough to tell the truth. We need more people to stand up to crystal use and those who promote it – including the DJs and promoters who create a tweaked out environment in the clubs and parties – and to bring back the positivity and FUN. Thanks for your part in that – scare tactics and all.”
“I MUST compliment you on the hard hitting but necessary factual content of your site. It is, without question, one of the best anti-drug sites I have ever seen… Reading the information on your site has convinced me that I was right to refuse [meth].”
“I HAVE found the site to be incredibly informative and eye opening, and I hope that it opens the eyes of my friends as well. The part about the clubs is so true!”
~ Michael [firstname.lastname@example.org]
“I COULD relate to everything. An honest, in-your-face website on crystal meth addiction… After going to your site I am determined not to be a statistic. Thank you.”
~ Todd [email@example.com]
“I RECENTLY used meth and enjoyed the experience. However, I see where it leads to much of the time and your site helped me to make the decision to quit and not go further down the meth path.”
“LIFE OR METH explains exactly why I quit hanging in the gay scene in LA and Miami since the early 1990s.”
“AS a former Tina abuser, I can attest to the benefit this site would have been to me… I was empowered by the information about the devastation Tina wreaks on its unsuspecting victim.”
~ Steve [Philadelphia]
“IT’S sites like LIFE OR METH that give us the wake up call we need.”
“I LOVE the personal touch of your site. Recovery information always seems to be given in such a drab,
depressing way that it seems cold, impersonal and uninteresting.”
~ Matthew [firstname.lastname@example.org]
“THIS SITE is necessary, and its in-your-face attitude may help others to quit or get the help they need.”
~ Anon [email@example.com]
“THIS has got to be the best, most concise thing I have read on the whole crystal/AIDS/club culture… It has helped me understand the whole thing and their link to one another enormously… You have really helped me see what’s been going on.”
~ Paul [London]
“I AM so pleased to see LIFE OR METH. I am a gay physician who works with HIV-positive individuals and have seen meth change the world of gay men over the last five years. Your site begins to address these not often talked about issues to a community that appears often in denial.”
~ Andrew E.
“THANK YOU. Please don’t give up your awesome attempts to shake us back to reality. This slow suicide of our hot/talented/passionate gay brothers is unacceptable.”
~ Anon [Manfriend9@yahoo.com]
“I’M a ninth grade student doing a prensentation on meth for my health class. This site has not only helped me immensely in my work, but also taught me sooooo much about meth. Thank you for providing the public and myself with such valuable information.”
~ Anon [firstname.lastname@example.org]
“THE Person inspired to develop LIFE OR METH should be heralded for their commitment to the survival of a positive gay community.”
~ Anon [email@example.com]
“ALLOW ME to congratulate and commend LIFE OR METH, which totally – 100%! – describes to a T what I am dealing with.”
“I FOUND LIFE OR METH to be informative, true and disturbing. Staying in touch with LIFE OR METH will, hopefully, help me in my recovery.”
~ Paul [Provincetown]
“I’M so overwhelmed at the timing of LIFE OR METH. Every point you have made is true, and I will keep your articles in full view to remind myself not to fall back into Tina’s trap.”
~ Nelson [Fort Lauderdale]
“THIS site is a blessing.”
~ De Andrae [firstname.lastname@example.org]
“I’M a 34-year-old certified health education specialist, specialising in HIV and Hepatitis C prevention and treatment. It’s very reassuring to see that I’m not the only gay man disgusted by this crystal plague.”
~ Aaron [San Francisco]
“THANK YOU so much for your amazing site. So few are aware of the dangers of crystal – it’s so seductive, so cunning; once it’s got you, it’s very tough to let go. I sometimes wish I could shout out from the tops of mountains warning everyone. But through a friend I found your site and it made me really happy.”
~ Dyonne [email@example.com]
And anyone curious to learn about Gary’s struggle against these organisations who profess to have your best interests at heart and what is really going, please see:
Click here for: article reporting that people with HIV can expect roughly a 21-YEAR REDUCTION in length of life
(URL from UK website “AIDSMAP”)