entirely right, no different from here.
If I knew less about the irish legal system, I would totally agree with you british. But the thing is that having studied every irish referenda in detail I can tell you now that this would be extremely divisive. Does that mean we shouldn’t have it? Not at all. I’m just saying that the case being made by the men in the suits is much more convincing than it would be if it were made by gordon brown. I still don’t agree with it, mind you.
But J – marriage equality in Ireland is only divisive because the Irish government claims it would require a constitutional referendum to introduce it.
However there is differing legal opinion on whether a referendum is needed. Many legal experts say no such referendum is required as the Irish constitution does not specifically define a marriage as being between a man and a woman. It generally refers to ‘he’ and ‘she’ when discussing marriage. It also refers to the Irish predident as ‘he’ throughout. No referendum was required to allow Mary Robinson run for president in 1990 as the Fianna Fail government of the day (the same crowd who are trying to foist civil partnerships on Irish queers) stated that the constitution is a living document that is meant to reflect the times and not to be taken literally.
In any case it is not the government’s job to decide what is constitutional. That is the Supreme Court’s job. It is the government’;s job to ensure legal equality. If someone wants to challenge civil marriage through the courts then fine. The court can decide. The Irish government is overstepping their remit by deciding on the constitutionality of gay marriage.
The very sad thing about the marriage equality debate in Ireland is the utter failure of the Gay and Lesbian Equality Network (GLEN) to represent the interests of LGBT people on this issue. GLEN would be the Irish equivalent to Stonewall and they are the only LGBT group the Irish government have spoken to about legal recognition of gay relationships.
GLEN claim to support marriage equality and say the CP Bill is a stepping stone to equality. However the Irish government says that CP’s are not a stepping stone to civil marriage equality. CP’s are the end point according to government. GLEN have offered unqualified support to the CP Bill despite its serious shortcomings in protecting the rights of gay parents and their children and despite the lack of clarity on what the tax and social welfare implications of the bill are. And GLEN have not indicated how they intend to gain marriage equality.
If the CP Bill becomes law then I fear that it will be at least another generation before we get equality.
There is a ‘March for Marriage’ in Dublin on Sunday 9th August supported by other groups like MarriagEquality and LGBT noise. These groups seem to be far more in tune with the wishes of the community on this. Check out their link on youtubeDOTcom/watch?v=aJ4FCDuBdp8
AND NOW FOR A CUT AND PASTE JOB ;) :
For UK readers who’d like to give the Irish Prime Minister a little reminder about how important tourism is to the Irish economoy and how legislating for civil partnerships in Ireland is sending a very bad signal to the world can I suggest you drop him an email along the lines of:
Dear Mr Cowen,
I am from ______ in England / Scotland / USA / Whereever. I am a regular visitor to Ireland and have always enjoyed the Irish hospitality and welcome.
It was with great sadness therefore that I read that your governmment intends to legislate for civil partnerships for the gay and lesbian community thereby denying them access to the legal contract of civil marriage. In the 21st Century it is entirely inappropriate to be denying equal access to marriage to a law-abiding, tax paying minority group. This sends a very negative message to the world about Ireland’s commitment to equality for all its citizens.
I urge you to scrap the proposed Civil Partnership legislation in favour of access to full civil marriage for gay people.
I look forward to paying a return visit to Ireland once the gay community has achieved equality in terms of access to civil marriage.
The Prime Minister (Taoiseach) is called Brian Cowen. His email address is email@example.com
If you send it then please copy the Minister for Justice (Dermot Ahern) also – his email is firstname.lastname@example.org
do not deny people the right to their legal rights. No matter what the law system is and how it may differ – legal rights is legal rights and a step closer to everything
fight for marriage but do stop CP, when it gives the community something they never had “legal rights” do not deny them this please
But Gino. At the present time gay couples have no legal rights in Ireland.
The CP Bill has not even been debated in parliament yet. Never mind being signed into law. That will probably be the new year at the earliest. So it is the perfect time to be telling the government that we will not accept 2nd class citizenship. It is appalling that the Irish government wishes to deny access to the civil contract of marriage to a law abiding tax-paying minority group. Escpecially when they have made it quite clear that 2nd class citizenship is all we can expect.
Forcing gay couples to participate in their own discrimination by accepting this 2nd class law is truly vile.
That is why the government needs to be told in no uncertain terms that the CP Bill is unacceptable. If it means scrapping the CP Bill and drafting new equality legislation then it is preferrable that a 1 year delay occurs.
Because I predict that if CP’s become law in Ireland then it will be another 40 years before we will get true legal equality.
Ireland has always been a backward country, indeed it is still ‘Gun Law’ in Ireland. Speak out against corruption as a certain Journalis did and you will be shot in the street. I wonder what Jerry Adams views are on Gay rights? The present Irish
Government is weak and afraid of their own shadows. I don’t hold out much hope for Irish Gay rights.
Simon, when we fought for this in 2004 it was about getting legal rights, no one can deny anyone their right for legal rights – while the fight continues for this “Equal Marriage”
@ Simon, I hear what you’re saying, but I’d also like to add that I think the failure to represent our interests in this debate, is partly the responsibility of each and every one of us as LGB people. We often look to organisations to put forward our interests, sometimes they do that effectively, other times they don’t. But I think apathy takes a share of the blame. After all, how are people in government meant to know our views if we don’t voice them properly. Just a thought.
Hmm – well Brian Burton – Gerry Adams is actually in favour of marriage equality as is Sinn Fein.
I get the feeling that you may be speaking in cliches about la belle Irlande (but then again you are pushing on a bit aren’t you?)
My attitude is thst it’s all to play for still. There is nothing in law yet and it will be at least 6 months before anything is law. The gov has committed to legislating for legal recognition of gay relationships so they may as well legislate for full equality now as if they bring in inadequate CP legislation then the gays will keep demanding equality.
As for the apathy of the Irish gays about this? Well there seems to be a very active equality campaign going on in Ireland at the moment so the government will be well aware of people’s dissatisfaction with CP’s.
“There is no place in normal society for gays.” Go on ya good thing.
There is no such a place as ‘Normal Society’ you must live in cloud cuckoo land…Ya good thing!
Yes Matey, I am ‘Pushing on’ a bit, but I’ll still out live an athiest by eternity! Glad to hear old Jerry is in favour and Simon Dear, I never speak in cliches. Whatever I say is from ‘Pushing on’ experiance. I expect too Simon, you will get a lot of Homophobic oppersition from closaphobic communities in Ireland. But still, you wont see it first hand. You prefer to live in my country…my England, don’t you?
I say that you are speaking in cliches Brian because your comments reflect the age old British xenophobic belief about Ireland being backward and in fact you make that exact claim.
There are homophobes in Ireland for sure but your comments don’t reflect the mortal injuries faced by the catholic cult in Ireland in recent years and how society has irreversibly changed as a result of the death of catholicism.
However your choice to believe in life after death (because face it that’s all it is) is about as irrational as the homophobia you speak about.
If it makes you comfortable to speak in cliches then go right ahead however.
I happen to belive the ’1921 Partition’ was a Criminal act against the Irish People. I liked President Develara, A great Irishman.
Whatever I commented earlier to do with ‘Backward’ was not calulated to hurt your feelings. I calculate now, that I have been around the block a few times before you were born Simon! I don’t think your ‘Agest remark’ to me was calculated to hurt my feelings either. I did call you a chatter-box to a commentor who disagreed with you saying M.J. was not a Genius…I still say he is! But no-matter…..I really, really hope Gay rights improve in Ireland. (And thats the Truth Folkes!)
A little oppersition from Religious Groups Etcetera will tend to make Gays Appreciate their Gay Rights achievements better…Well maybee?
Yes but Brian – you’re still not making sense. You say that ‘experience’ explains why you “don’t hold out much hope for Irish Gay rights.”
But this discussion is about the Civil Partnership Bill which is to be debated in Parliament in Autumn and will be law by Spring. Every party in government is committed to introducing it so really the religious cultists can go sing. They cannot do anything.
While I disagree with CP’s there is no doubt they are better than nothing. They are in fact progress. BUt you claim you don’t have any hope for Irish gay rights. Can you not see how reactively xenophobic you are being – regardless of your so-called experience.
My arguement is that civil partnerships are the least that are on offer. But they are inadequate. We should demand full equality we could well get it. If we don’t then we’ll have the CP’s that exist in Britain; France and Germany.
Yes, Civil Partnerships to be debated in the ‘Autum A week is a long time in Politics. Anything can happen before Autum…Thats all I’m saying! I hope the Civil partnership bill will become Law (Better Than Nothing!) after that, at least it will be some kind of step forward in the right direction. Good Luck with any demands that may be made for full equality.
“Ireland has always been a backward country”
What? Have you ever been here? How is it backward? What a stupid and ill-informed thing to say. You never cease to amaze me, Mr. Burton, with the delirious sentiments of an old fool…. the typical rantings of a pompous army man with the brains only to fight.
Simon…there will NEVER be full marriage for same-sex couples in the UK and I don’t think it will happen in Ireland either. For one thing, Stonewall UK doesn’t think we need the option to marry because it believes we don’t need it and its not on its “things to do list”, its abandoned marriage. Yet it hasn’t considered the hurdles a British gay partnered couple faces if they have to leave the country for an overseas job in countries where same-sex couples are allowed to marry. Further, civil partnerships, PACS, civil unions and the rest of the hodge podge of same-sex unions across the EU are a total shambles with no uniformity, reciprocity and in most cases, none of them have identical rights, some have more as in the UK and some have far less. I see NO equality in that. Marriage has and always will be the universal standard. We Brits and the Irish among others are deluding ourselves if we think civil partnerhips are going to be the norm across the gay world as seven countries are now allowing us to marry, countries that had forms of non-marital unions ahd who have now abandoned them, and that will continue to grow. Sadly, the UK won’t be one of them and I don’t think Ireland will be either. Sooner or later, its going to come back and bit them, hard. Both countries will be dragged, as always, kicking and screaming into the 21st century. Its a sad commentary when you consider that catholic countries such as Spain, Belgium, half of Holland managed quite comfortably to open marriage to same-sex couples. We in the UK took the cowardly way out to avoid confrontation with the C of E cult, among others. Having something that is better than nothing at all is a sell-out. Ireland is falling into the same trap as we did. I don’t care if people want civil partnerships if they so choose, but they should be more supportive of those of us who want the choice to marry. Simple as that. I dont want to live in the past, I don’t want to be treated differently either which is what this is about, legal segregation. I bet if straights were allowed to form a partnership, there wouldn’t be that many takers and we know why.
UP Yours Too Dear! Get a Life!
Well Brian, I’ll get a life when you get an education, you pompous piece of racist filth.
Could somebody please do the job of this arsewipe website, and instead of spouting hyperbole and shock-horror, and please explain to those of us lacking telepathy what exactly a married couple have in Ireland, that a civil partnership does not?
(It’s about time newspapers and the like actually went back to informing people instead of entertaining them.)
You Arsewipe, try reading all the Comments by me instead of just the ones to suit your tiny mind!
Well, Brian, the rest of your comments do nothing to alleviate your little racist remark, your either a racist or an idiot. I drift towards the latter, but hey, its probably both, it seems. Next time you suggest the Irish are “backward”, without any proof other then a sprinkling of your usual army what-hoo-chappies-lets-shoot-the-natives-and-god-save-the-queen bigotry, you go polish your boots or sometime equally mind challenging, okay? Leave the social commentary on an entire nationality to those who know that the f*ck they’re talking about. Now, run along and take your shell-shock meds….
Brian, you make a silly generalisation that would offend any Irish person. The Irish are no more backward than the British, and its ignorance and negative stereotyping that gives people like you that impression. In fact, the Irish were 10 years ahead of the British when it came to equality legislation like the SOR.
If you have any decency you’d simply apologise for the comment and move on, as an apology is all you can make now. Otherwise you ARE the racist idiot you are being called. You’re choice, mate.
RobN, the key difference between “marriage” and “partnership” in Ireland is around children. All other rights are equal (although we will have to wait on other Bills to ensure this is the case). IN marrigae the children are recognised, in CP they are not. In essence, apart from name, it has all the rights of marriage, except recognition of children’s rights, or the right to adopt, which is a fairly serious omission. Its not as comprehensive as the British CP. The Irish government claim that its to do with the constitution, and its definition of marriage, but this is being dismissed as unlikely, and its basically down to the right wing leanings of the current party not wanting to give too much to the gay population and offend the Catholic Church…. Fianna Fail (the ruling party) are basically the Tory’s with religious hangups. Most, while not happy with the lack of equality from a legal point of view, see this CP as a stepping stone to marriage, as this is the route most other countries have taken. However, you are getting some others in Ireland who are calling for marriage now, all or nothing style, and these naturally are grabbing the headlines (unfortunately).
Hope that explains it RobN.
You are both idiots if you think I give a flying toss for both of your inane typicaly ‘Backward’ remarks!
Well, thank you Brian. Then Will is right. You ARE an idiot and a racist. How proud you must be. I suppose that’s what comes of the high brow army training you get…. Those who can’t think, usually fight.
Quite right Sean.
Brian, what exactly does “inane typicaly [sic] ‘Backward’ remarks” mean? Seriously, you are some prize f**cking moron. Off you go now and play solider. You can use the pages of a good book you can’t read to wipe your arse in the back garden as you wave your littler toy gun around.
Sean and Will,
You pair of Dizzy queens should get back to your Knitting circle before your missed!
Brian, put a sock in it, you twat. You made a stupid racist remark, so Will and Sean were quite right to tell you what a prize f*cking idiot you are.
Now f*ckoff and learn to read/write, your posts are like a those of a demented 3 year old with dyslexia.
OK Linda Dear, I can take a hint!
Please, people. Lets bring it down a notch, can we please?
Yes, Brian was wrong to say what he said, and I can understand Will and Sean’s anger, given they are Irish. And Brian, I have conversed with Will before (assuming its the same Will), and he has a fairly high degree of intelligence and education from what I can tell, so you can see how being called “backward” is not okay…. and I have been to Ireland, and the Irish are anything but.
But there is no need to attack each other. Mistakes are made as we are only human. We are all regulars here, so civility is the trademark of understanding. Agreed?
Tony, you’re quite right, of course.
My apologies for any offence caused with my less than lady like language.
Will, May I too apologise for my Language etcetra.
It was not my intention to offend any Irish Person, Me words were ment in the broadest of contexts. and not spercifically. As I hope you read about my admiration for a ‘Great Irishman’ President Develara and the 1921 Partition was a Criminal act against the Irish People…I said all that and am still classed as a racist? But I’ll have to accept what you all decide.
No 27: Sean: You say:
“Most, while not happy with the lack of equality from a legal point of view, see this CP as a stepping stone to marriage … you are getting some others in Ireland who are calling for marriage now, all or nothing style.”
There is no ‘all or nothing’ camp. There is an ‘all instead of something’ camp. ‘All’ being civil marriage. ‘Something’ being Civil Partnerships. Civil partnerships are on offer and are supported by every political party in the country. They are inevitable. There is no possibility that the government will cancel the CP Bill and also refuse to legislate for gay marriage.
In a worst case scenario there will be CP’s by this time next year. The ‘all instead of something’ camp are merely asking the government in a forceful manner to quit making excuses for refusing to delay equality and legislate for it today.
“The ‘all instead of something’ camp are merely asking the government in a forceful manner to quit making excuses for delaying equality and legislate for it today.”
That’s what I meant to say in the last sentence in my previous post.
“There is no ‘all or nothing’ camp.”
Really? Did you see the fiasco staged by Marriage Equality at Dublin’s gay pride this year? There is certainly an “all or nothing” camp.
Sean – yeah I was at gay pride this year and was very happy with their speech. MarriagEquality simply want equality. They merely want legal equality. And as citizens they are perfectly free to expect that.
Civil partnership is inevitable in Ireland. I cannot understand why gay people should not be requesting full equality instead of CP’s when nothing has been legislated for yet.
CP’s in Ireland are a specific legal device to deny gay people full marriage equality. They are unacceptable. They are pathetic version of ‘separate but equal’ (although of course they are not equal). If you don’t approve of full gay marriage equality then don’t marry someone of the same sex. But you should not attempt to restrict the rights of other gay people.
How will CP and Marriage differ regarding citizenship for partners? I have the passport (dual-citizenship) but my partner does not. We live elsewhere, where homosexuality itself is illegal. Can’t wait to marry after all these years together, and am very keen to get her Irish residency / citizenship asap. Was planning on moving over next year. Any suggestions?
“CP’s in Ireland are a specific legal device to deny gay people full marriage equality.”
I’m not saying they’re equal, but I need this CP now, and I am not wait for 10 years for the socially backward government of Ireland to go with full marriage… or because some people think if you accept CP your less of a queer. Such bollox. I don’t want marriage. I never will. A lot of gay people don’t either. Marriage is for straight people. I just want legal equality, call it what you will after that… I just don’t care, the real test is in the law.. This CP, while not perfect, will give me and my partner the security and legal protection we both need, NOW. And we need it NOW.
And I for one wasn’t happy with the speech on gay pride in Dublin…. having the CP bill, which will make a tangible difference to the lives of couples like us, torn up by some snotty little 20 something lesbian (who probably hasn’t even had her first relationship) is arrogant, stupid and lacking understanding of how other countries have moved on this, and how the CP will make a difference to many people. Yes, we have a long way to go, and no we don’t have to be thankful for it, but the Marriage Equality and LGBT Noise crowds are all for the now or mothering. Well, f*ck them if they think they speak for all of the gay community in Ireland, they most certainly don’t.
Yes, the CP isn’t perfect. But it’s a start. Full equality in “marriage” will come in time. And in the real world, great accomplishments are made with steps, not leaps.
Why do you need a CP now?
The people who claim to need CP’s ‘now’ need to realise that CP’s will delay marriage equality in Ireland (by around 30 years I believe). Once these CP’s come in then we will be stuck with them for a generation. If we scrap them now and insist on equality (like they got in catholic Spain) then full equality will be reached a lot quicker. CP’s totally killed the campaign for equality in Britain; France and Germany. I do not want that to happen in Ireland and to be honest your personal relationship needs are not an adequate reason for me to accept 2nd class citizenship.
If you regard some 20-something lesbian as selfish for not showing understanding of your need for CP’s instantly then equally you are just as selfish for condemning her future relationships to 2nd class status to suit your own immediate needs. That is a selfish demand for CP supporters to make on the future generation.
I personally think GLEN is to blame here. Their behaviour in meekly accepting CP’s is pathetic and craven. That they have refused to qualify their support for the 2nd class citizenship being offered to gay people should be a matter of enormous shame for them.
They say that CP’s are a stepping stone. Well if they want to convince the huge numbers of the community they claim to represent who are currently opposed to 2nd class CP’s to support them then I want to see their strategy for legal equality. What are the steps that need to be taken to upgrade CP’s to equality; what is the intended timeframe for achieving it?
To be honest I don’t trust GLEN with my equality. They have shown themselves to be a toothless bunch of relics by being so supportive of CP’s. I refuse to take their word that they will campaign for my legal equality when they cannot even highlight the shortcomings of CP’s
Stepping stone yes, equal no, I think so at least, but I need it now so neither my partner nor I have to pay €71k in taxes on our own home in the event one of us dies…. something this CP will fix, regardless of how you or I feel about its inequality, to be bluntly honest this is irrelevant to me. This is a real practical solution for a couple like us. Imprefect yes, but I am not waiting 10 years for full marriage in Ireland, which I don’t want anyway, to appease the sensibilities of those who haven’t even got a bloody partner!
If you don’t like CP, then don’t use them, wait on marriage if you prefer. But don’t deprive a couple like us of the legal protection we so badly need, just because you don’t like CP.
Quite right Sean. Don’t take that patronising shite off Simon. If he needs “gay marriage” to feel equal, then he needs to have a word with his counsellor.
I for one am glad that CP’s, even though not perfect YET, that it will help you and your partner in a tangible way. People like Simon need to see that CP will actually make a difference to couples, and instead focus on improving them to give full legal equality. Not denying them to others because of their own beliefs around “equality”, which in the end makes them no better than the religious nuts). There’s far bigger fights to be won with acceptance in society than gay marriage, anyone who’s been gay based would agree!!!
Why should each of you suffer such a such a big financial burden because a bunch of people think gay marriage is the panacea for their personal issues with being gay, and who scream bigot at every gay man who prefers Civil Partnership?
No 44: Sean: You say: “I need it now so neither my partner nor I have to pay €71k in taxes on our own home in the event one of us dies…. something this CP will fix, regardless of how you or I feel about its inequality, to be bluntly honest this is irrelevant to me. ”
Well to be equally blunt back to you – how incredibly selfish of you. I’m therefore going to take a leaf out of your book then – whether or not you have to pay €71k in taxes on our own home is irrelevant to me. I don’t care if
And to alter another of your comments – don’t deprive someone like me of the equality I expect, just because you’re happy to be 2nd class.
You may think that CP’s are important and a necessary 1st step but your utter disregardsd
Bottom line is this – the government could easily introduce full equality instead of CP’s instantly. They have spent years creating legislation designed to create a 2 tier system of legal recognition of relationships. They can very simply and very easily legislate for full access to civil marriage tomorrow. It would not take 10 years. They could do it in 6 months.
If you are not happy with marriage then feel free to campaign for CP’s afterwards if you like. But for you to expect others to delay their legal equality when you show such a lack of consideration for their expectations just to satisfy your own requirements indicates that if you are typical of the supporters of CP then the people campaigning for equality should have no qualms about trying to sabotage the CP Bill. After all you don’t seem to care a bit about their arguements. Why should they care about yours?
I mean you have GLEN on your side – they only represent a minority interest group like you. They certainly don’t represent the views of people who believe that gay people are equal.
How many people are going to be denied their legal equality over how many years to satisfy the selfishness of people like you?
Who knows – GLEN certainly don’t – they refuse to say how they plan to campaign for equality
If you don’t like CP, then don’t bother with them. Its a free country. Fight away. Its that simple. What do I care
You’ve made no argument to convince me that I shouldn’t use a CP other than a little rant about “equality”. You’re a bumbling fool, and typically self motivated with naive thinking of “your” ideals being the ones every other gay man wants.
I am equal. I don’t need a bit of paper to tell me, maybe you do, and off you go. After you get the marriage “equality” I’m sure you’ll have a histrionic session aver something else to make you feel one bit better about yourself. All I need are the rights. And enough of them are with the CP, thank you. Be dammed I will apologise to arrogant fuckwits like you for it!
Simon, get off your high horse, you pompous arse. Sean is very much entitled to want a CP over “gay marriage”. Who the fuck do you think you are to ram your definition down our necks of what we should think is equality?
Simon, you’re an fucking idiot. And an insensitive one at that.