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Normal again: The reasons and realities behind the ex-gay movement

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  1. It’s high time there was an amendment to hate crime legislation to include this type of psychological assault and battery – a mandatory fine of £500,000 for a first offence, £1m for second offence, etc., for guilty organisations; and proportional fines for individuals [plus a prison sentence] …. and the money used to rehabilitate the abused!

  2. Brian Burton 24 Jul 2009, 5:22pm

    Is this a Walt Disney story? It all seems a bit odd to me….Lets see how things pan out.

  3. Two of the main techniques these insidious groups deploy, are firstly, to bring about deep shame in the participants, that being gay and gay sex acts are profoundly wrong, and secondly to emphasis the so-called risks undergone by acting out gay behaviours in terms of sexual health, mental health longevity, etc etc. All of this based on actual lies, untruths. They trade in lies, NARTH and Exodus are the liars-in-chief, Nicolosi and Satinover who give their so-called research a veneer of credibility are the head-honcho Liars, the No.1 Liars. Am I getting my point across? Just sayin’.

  4. This idea of sexuality being fluid and able to change is fine . . . what is problematic is way the change is skewed in one direction only. If sexuality is really fluid it will be capable of moving in both directions.

    Curious how there is no Ex-heterosexual movement

    Perhaps one of those exgay Fundamentalist Christians who frequent this site could explain to us where the Ex-heterosexuals are.

  5. lol john k!

    There’s no need for a group – they come out on their own! =)

  6. I think we should start depoying the same techniques as the various churches use. Ever seen a straight man who you would like to bong? send him to ex-straight, make him gay and live happily ever after… wouldnt it be nice if sexuality was as plain and simple as that. idiots.

  7. what’s the opposite of heterosexual, holiness as well?

    think it through you muppets.

    the only thing that needs curing is these sickos’ homophobia.
    remove these religious nuts and you remove the problem.

  8. Sugar Plum Fairy 25 Jul 2009, 5:34am

    LEE6-Ever seen a straight man who you would like to bong? send him to ex-straight, make him gay and live happily ever after… wouldnt it be nice if sexuality was as plain and simple as that. idiots.

    How can you make someone gay if you are born gay? Idiot!!

  9. There’s a reason why harrassment, verbal aggression, blackmail etc are all against the law – they mess you up!!!!! Why isn’t this practise illegal if it is causing mental health problems???!!!! It truly shocks me that it isn’t!

  10. Robert, ex-pat Brit 25 Jul 2009, 3:57pm

    The ex gay ministries have NEVER produced one shred of evidence to prove their methods work, nor have they submitted any documentation to any of the leading scientific and medical literature. Its a scam to make money on vulnerable gay people through aversion and in some cases religious therapy. Conversely, they’ve never proved that a straight can be converted to a gay orientation either just to prove the point. Is all quackery and they should all be run out of business, fast. They do more harm than you can imagine. Almost all run by mentally ill people too.

  11. The only positive outcome is financial gain for the ex-gay ministries.

    Interesting insight into why gay men would seek such ‘treatment’ (abuse).

    The opposite of homosexuality is holiness! Why haven’t I ever thought of that??!

    Holy Hard-On, Batman! Let’s Do It Again !!!

  12. Just another reason to leave the churches behind this kind of abuse. All it is is blaming the victim, destroying their self esteem, and control freaking them into hating themselves for what they are. And then the mind is opened.

    Data here in the USA says only 15% ARE “CURED”, the ones the church groups brag about. But in reality, that group splits 3 ways. 1/3 secretly go back to their old ways, driven back into the closet of shame and fear. 1/3 go celibate, and lead a lonely life. And 1/3 go to work for these maggot groups.

    So the bottom line is that the ex-gay ministries are just another variant of the churches satanistic closet.

    But I do agree – it is time to start a ex str8 group. And this will become a magnet for all those closeted gays to come out of the closet, provide cover for them. And this include the prob 10% of miserably married people who actually are gay.

    Send all this to the tyrant of rome and his understudies. The first line of their Address should read “HELL”.

  13. Sugar Plum Fairy 26 Jul 2009, 6:03am

    R10-The ex gay ministries have NEVER produced one shred of evidence to prove their methods work,

    Hi Robert, the evidence is out there is you care to open your eyes.

    Story 1.
    Gradually, my will and then my desires changed. I no longer needed homosexual sex. I had pure relationships with men and women that far exceeded any encounter I had ever had. What I have found is freedom in the hope that after this short life, God will fulfill His promise of healing to completion. I also found “the goodness of the Lord in the land of the living” (Psalm 27:13).

    In 1998 my ultimate earthly dream came true when I married my best friend. My wife, Leslie, is the embodiment of all I consider to be godly, pure and beautiful. She is evidence of God’s grace in my life, a part of the ‘best’ that He promised me back in that gay bar. God uses her in my life to bring constant encouragement as I grow in my manhood. I am a better man today because of my life with her and because of God’s continuing work in me. Leslie is every way my compliment; loving and being married to her is confirmation that God intended marriage only to be between one man and one woman for one lifetime.

    Story 2.
    A year later, at nineteen (1988), I found out that a neighbor of mine was gay. I had never had an opportunity before this but had told myself that I would follow through if ever propositioned. He soon showed me all that the gay life had to offer. I had never been so confused. My mind was telling me that this is what you have always wanted, and my body and soul were telling me that this was wrong. He quickly introduced me to all the pornography I could handle, and took me to the local gay bar. When I walked into the room, all eyes were on me. I was instantly addicted. All the attention and acceptance I had ever wanted was there for the taking.

    I soon was in one relationship after another. While at times I was in relationships that seemed to be enjoyable and satisfying, they never seemed to last, while others left me feeling as if I were a prostitute. I can remember telling a friend that “I have this huge void in my life that I cannot seem to fill.” I wanted to be loved and accepted, but most of the time all I was getting was used.

    When I got back from as Exodus Conference, I called my mom and dad up and asked them to come over. They were terrified; believing that I was going to tell them that I had AIDS. I sat them down and told them how I had asked Christ to come into my heart. We all cried together. Next, I wrote and told all of my friends in the lifestyle of my new relationship with Christ and that I could never go back to that way of life. I didn’t know how I would follow Christ out of homosexuality; I just knew that I would, no matter what the cost.

    I had learned to develop healthy relationships with other men. I realized that this is what I had needed and desired all along. Through developing a relationship with Christ and with a few godly men, I was able to fill my needs.

    Five years after leaving the lifestyle, I met Julie at the church I was attending and continue attending today. She was beautiful, and I couldn’t understand why she was interested in me, but luckily for me she was. We dated and were engaged for about one year, and on January 27, 1996, we were married. We now have two children, a strong young boy and a beautiful baby girl. In the five years leading up to this point, and as part of our marriage, God was doing a work in my life. It was not easy, but it was all worth where I am today– a whole man of God.

    I remember back when I was living alone, struggling with the thoughts and addictions in my homosexuality and gay identity and what that might have meant for my future. I desired so much to have someone to talk to that could steer me in the right direction. It is for this reason that God has brought me to where I am today.

  14. Brian Burton 26 Jul 2009, 7:02am

    Sugar Plum Fairy,
    That story is from ‘The Nutcraker suite!’

  15. Sugar Plum Fairy:

    If you’re looking for a nutcracker, you’ve come to the right place.

    What I need is a cure for my irrational fear of spiders. I’m willing to pay, and then I’ll do a write up, for a price, but I suppose nobody believes fiction any more.

    What a secular world we’re livin’ in!

  16. @Sugar Plum Fairy – thread 13

    The Royal College of psychiatrists has made a statement about reparative therapies.

    They state – there is no evidence for these therapies, and that these therapies if practiced are likely to lead to depression, anxiety and in some cases suicide.

    Sugar Plum Fairy . . . You have murdered yourself emotionally psychologically and spiritually . . . what is to stop you actually murdering a gay person?

    It is interesting that you refer to yourself on this thread as “Sugar Plum Fairy” . . . you always were a Fairy, and you still are a fairy emotionally, psychologically and spiritually . . . if you were really comfortable as a heterosexual you would not need to frequent gay websites

  17. Mihangel apYrs 26 Jul 2009, 2:24pm

    In neither of Sugarplum’s stories do the subjects mention being “in love” with their wives.

    In both cases they have “given” themselves to a god who told them that they were worthless; is it any surprise that if they believedit they would do anything to be accepted by their new father figure?

    And breeding doesn’t make one straight, gays have been doing it for miullenia….

  18. Hmmm, sensing a bit of drivel here… Second paragraph: “I married my best friend. My wife, Leslie”. And then second to last paragraph: “…I met Julie…we were married…”

    So, does this mean Sugar Plum Fairy actually married Leslie AND Julie and is now practicing polyamoury/polygamy or is he, as I suspect, just the complete NUTTER?

  19. Sugar Plum Fairy 27 Jul 2009, 3:46am

    L18-Hmmm, sensing a bit of drivel here… Second paragraph: “I married my best friend. My wife, Leslie”. And then second to last paragraph: “…I met Julie…we were married…”

    Leilah, you are obviously educationally challenged. Leslie is story 1 and Julie is story 2. Two stories, two different men, two different marriages, two different wives. I didn’t realise that there would be people who could not understand the obvious so I do apologise for not making it very simple for you.

    JK16- They state – there is no evidence for these therapies, and that these therapies if practiced are likely to lead to depression, anxiety and in some cases suicide.

    Evidence please, like the evidence that homosexuality produces suicides at a higher rate than the normal population because of all the rejection they receive from…homosexuals.

    MY17- In neither of Sugarplum’s stories do the subjects mention being “in love” with their wives.

    “loving and being married to her” Obviously your another one that is educationally challenged.

    Of course I do not expect you to comprehend the truth as you live in a world of unreality, where me, myself and I are the focus of your lives and which is guaranteed to give you a complex and an inability to grasp that life does not revolve around you.

    Why else do you descend into infantile, abusive and totally pathetic responses that make you look like a gaggle of vultures fighting over a carcass.

    STORY 3. (this is a different one to the other two Lielah)

    Fifteen years ago I was a very different man from who I am now.

    All of my relational, political, and social needs were defined by a worldview that fed my appetites and met my needs, albeit just temporarily. My world was centred on the idea that the unholy trinity of me-myself-and-I was sufficient to provide vision, inspiration, answers … and even legacy.

    I was gay. I didn’t particularly care for Christians 15 years ago. During the 1980s I was an out and proud gay-identified man watching one friend after another die of AIDS. Being gay was the only way I thought possible of knowing and being known. According to everyone around me — both the condemning and condoning crowds — being “gay” was my only option. I had moved out of the closet only to find myself living in a pigeonhole.

    Over the past 15 years I’ve gone from a seriously liberal gay-identified man arguing with pro-lifers and mean Christians to a seriously conservative Christian-identified man attracted to women, supporting pro-life causes and contending with gay activists. I’ve also learned to steward my sexuality and not allow it to rule my life.

  20. Oh my goodness you need to get a life – perhaps if you actually wrote your ‘stories’ in a legible fashion there wouldn’t be a need to question your meaning. Please take your religious drivel elsewhere.

  21. At the rate things are going it won’t be long before the Muslims have subjugated Sugar Plum Fairy and his wives to Sharia Law…and we know what Islam thinks of polytheism.

    They’ll be targeting nutters like SPF before us, that’s for sure. They’ve probable already traced his IP address. Yawn.

  22. Mihangel apYrs 27 Jul 2009, 10:23am

    SPF: “loving and being married to her” is different from being “in love with”: following yoiur snide, self-righteous, smug and self-assured vitriolic utterances I would have thought you could comprehend that. I love many people, but I’m not “in love with” all of them. Being “in love” means something considerably different from “love”, and if yoiu’ve never experienced that differnece I pity you.

    And for the record: I don’t give a FUCK for any ex-gay, just don’t ram it down my throat there’s a good fellow. I don’t believe in your god, so why should I want to submit to what youi think he’s want for me. And far from being selfish and self-centred, I do like to think that myh actions towards friends and strangers allows me to look myself in the eye wen I shave.

  23. Get the picture SPF? You ain’t about to convert anyone here. Make a note of that and goodbye.

    Anybody seen TomPaine lately? He hasn’t commented since the Pride Parade.

  24. Brian Burton 27 Jul 2009, 12:18pm

    What! More SUGAR-PLUM? PITY IT’S NOT THE DYING SWANN!

  25. SFP – the ex-gay movement is an evil lie that gets people hurt and dead so stop peddling your evil

  26. Rick George 27 Jul 2009, 1:41pm

    Sugar Plum Fairy, having read what you say I have a number of questions. You say that you were a liberal minded gay man. What was wrong with that for you? You see for me I dont see what is wrong with that. Im not uncomfortable about my sexual orientation, I accept it as part of me, I see no reason to feel ashamed about it. I dont understand why you do. I am also a deeply spiritual person, or certainly I am driven towards learning about the spiritual aspect of the human experience and having been engaged in that endeavour for much of my adult life I dont understand why you believe that God condemns gay people or gay sex. Obviosly I dont share the same understanding of God as you so why are you satisfied that the things you believe about God are accurate. Why do you consider the bible the only valid authority of the principles and values God espouses. Why is there any need to change your sexual orientation. I dont understand that. Can you explain please.

  27. Get this folks! From TrueFreedomTrusts website FAQ’s:

    “If marriage is not in God’s plan for us, does sexual orientation matter too much? And if marriage is in God’s plan for us, there are many within TfT who can testify that He is able to create a faithful and loving covenant commitment including the sexual element for us towards our spouse, without the need for a general sexual attraction to the opposite sex. Our real need is to be attracted to the one person, not to the many. Perhaps this question challenges the modern assumptions about the labels we attach to our sexuality and asks us to focus less on what we perceive our needs to be and more on the true essentials of living a holy life. It is certainly possibly to live in a happy and fulfilling marriage and yet continue to battle with same sex attraction. Heterosexuality is not a pre-requisite to marriage.

    What a recipe for disaster! – especially when the victims discover to their chagrin that Christianity is just not true

  28. Ooops! HTML didn’t work right! The emphasis ahoud have been on:

    “Heterosexuality is not a prerequisite to marriage”

    Welcome to Desolation Boulevard, Christian!

  29. Sugar Plum Fairy 28 Jul 2009, 2:19am

    MY22-”loving and being married to her” is different from being “in love with”:

    So your an expert on heterosexual love now? You do have such a one dimensional existence don’t you that doesn’t allow you to see beyond your ideological blinkers.

  30. Sugar Plum Fairy 28 Jul 2009, 2:25am

    LEILAH20-Oh my goodness you need to get a life – perhaps if you actually wrote your ‘stories’ in a legible fashion there wouldn’t be a need to question your meaning. Please take your religious drivel elsewhere.

    This comment definitely shows that your are educationally challenged. Having taught Enlgish in High School and being a contributing journalist to several magazines and sites on the internet, what I write is very legible, otherwise they would not pay me for my work. It is obvious that you do not understand basic english. Perhpas you would benefit from going to night school to improve your understanding of English.

    If you don’t like what I write, don’t read it. No one is forcing you to.

  31. Sugar Plum Fairy 28 Jul 2009, 2:26am

    MY22-just don’t ram it down my throat there’s a good fellow.

    I am not doing that. You don’t have to read it. That is your choice to do so, so please don’t blame me for your anger and stupidity.

  32. Sugar Plum Fairy 28 Jul 2009, 2:31am

    CHESTER25-the ex-gay movement is an evil lie that gets people hurt and dead so stop peddling your evil

    Evidence please or shall I just add this one to other 25 pieces of evidence that you have been asked for on this site that has not been given

    RG26-You say that you were a liberal minded gay man.

    I didn’t.

    RG26-I dont understand why you believe that God condemns gay people

    He doesn’t. They condemn themselves.

  33. Sugar Plum Fairy 28 Jul 2009, 2:48am

    LEILAH20- Please take your religious drivel elsewhere.

    Just as well NASA don’t believe it is drivel!!!

    NASA & THE BIBLE
    Did you know that the space program is busy proving that what has been called ‘myth’ in the Bible is true?

    Mr. Harold Hill, President of the Curtis Engine Company in Baltimore, Maryland, and a consultant in the space program, relates the following development.

    ‘I think one of the most amazing things that God has done for us today happened recently to our astronauts and space scientists at Green Belt, Maryland.

    They were checking out where the positions of the sun, moon, and planets would be 100 years and 1,000 years from now. We have to know this so we won’t send up a satellite and have it bump into something later on in its orbits.

    We have to lay out the orbits in terms of the life of the satellite and where the planets will be so the whole thing will not bog down.

    They ran the computer measurement back and forth over the centuries, and it came to a halt. The computer stopped and put up a red signal, which meant that there was something wrong with either the information fed into it or with the results as compared to the standards.

    They called in the service department to check it out, and they said, ‘What’s wrong?’ Well, they found there is a day missing in space in elapsed time.

    They scratched their heads but there was no answer. Finally a Christian man on the team said, ‘You know, one time I was in Sunday School, and they talked about the sun standing still.’ While they didn’t believe him, they didn’t have an answer either, so they said, ‘Show us, ‘

    He got a Bible and went to the book of Joshua where they found a pretty ridiculous statement for any one with ‘common sense.’

    There they found the Lord saying to Joshua,’Fear them not, I have delivered them into thy hand; there shall not a man of them stand before Thee.’

    Joshua was concerned because he was surrounded by the enemy! And if darkness fell, they would overpower them. So Joshua asked the Lord to make the sun stand still! That’s right… ‘The sun stood still and the moon stayed and lasted not to go down about a whole day!’ (Joshua 10:12-13)

    The astronauts and scientists said, there is the missing day! They checked the computers going back into the time it was written and found it was close but not close enough. The elapsed time that was missing back in Joshua’s day was 23 hours and 20 minutes . Not a whole day.

    They read the Bible, and there it was about [approximately] a day. These little words in the Bible are important, but they were still in trouble because if you cannot account for 40 minutes, you’ll still be in trouble 1000 years from now.

    Forty minutes had to be found because it can be multiplied many times over in orbits. As the Christian employee thought about it, he remembered somewhere in the Bible where it said the sun went BACKWARDS.

    The scientists told him he was out of his mind, but they got out the Book and read these words in 2 Kings that told of the following story: Hezekiah, on his death bed, was visited by the prophet Isaiah who told him that he was not going to die. Hezekiah asked for a sign as proof. Isaiah said ‘Do you want the sun to go ahead 10 degrees?’

    Hezekiah said, ‘It is nothing for the sun to go ahead 10 degrees, but let the shadow return backward 10 degrees.’ Isaiah spoke to the Lord, and the Lord brought the shadow ten degrees BACKWARD! Ten degrees is exactly 40 minutes!’

    Twenty-three hours and 20 minutes in Joshua, plus 40 minutes in 2nd Kings make the missing day in the universe! Isn’t it amazing?

  34. Mihangel apYrs 28 Jul 2009, 7:40am

    SPF

    why are you here? Your interminable rantings about your take on your particular superstition are tedious, simplistic and ultimately boring. YOu say we don’t have to read them, and we don’t, but we do have to scroll past them.

    Your casual insults do your case no good: far from making you seem reasonable they just make you seem lame – the debating style of the playground, ad hominem attacks may make you feel like a winner, but in actuality they merely focus attention on you r paucity of evidence for anything you say. In fact, objectively examined, there is NO evidence for the belief you adhere to, that’s why it’s called faith. I prefer to look life in the face rather than hide behind a god that promises me all good things if only I grovel to him.

    You seem to be of the opinion that “heterosexual” love is something different from what other people feel. I have no doubt you will respond by saying it is, but such a dismissal of the feelings of people on this board merely demonstrate the true contempt you actually have for us: you come here to validate your own decision to back out of your natural inclinations and rationalise the effort you made to bury your same-sex attraction. If you can’t say that you NEVER experience a moment when you experience a frisson of sexual attraction to a man, then you’re still queer, and no matter how deeply you bury it, it is still there.

    I don’t pity you, because what you’ve done to yourself, you’ve done by choice: but I do question why you lurk on LGBT web sites: you won’t get converts and you merely succeed in irritating; is it because you feel the need to tell yourself that youi’re “cured”, or is it because you get a vicarious pleaseure from remaining a little in toch with your gay side? Why not try this technique in your local gay bar, if you’re so right I’m sure yoiu’ll turn some people around.

    And that’s all I have ot say to you. You are a troll; we’ve had religious nuts like you on before derailng our conversations. All I can suggest to my fellow contributors is to ignore you as we do the others. You annoy and add nothing of value to our conversations.

  35. SPF – you are probably bisexual . . . get over it

  36. Rick George 28 Jul 2009, 12:29pm

    Sugar Plum Fairy, Oh I see, your talking about someone else not speaking for yourself. Ok but still, why do you buy into that without question? Have you actually met this person or are you just quoting from a book?

    “He doesn’t. They condemn themselves.”

    Can you expand on what you mean by this please. I mean if God doesnt condemn gay people and gay sex then why…I dont get it. Please explain.

    Comment 33. Ummm, interesting. Im sure I can find some other explanation for that. Oh Eureka! Type in Nasa and the bible into a search engine and it turns out that this is an urban legend that has been soundly discredited by scientists. LMAO…and your involved in education and journalism!!!

  37. Rick George 28 Jul 2009, 12:50pm

    Sugar Plum Fairy, have you actually got anything to say that can withstand more than the lightest scrutiny?!

  38. Rick George 28 Jul 2009, 7:54pm

    As for the subjective personal testimonies you have used, some of which refer to circumstances and conditions 20 years ago, these cannot be considered evidence from a scientific perspective because they are subjective and three people is not a large enough sample to prove anything of significance.

    They are obviously biased and designed with a vested interest so where exactly did they come from? Where are these people now and do they still hold the same views? Have you actually spoken to these people recently? Have you even met these people or are you just quoting from a book?

  39. NASA? Bwahahahahahahahahaha! I take it all back – THAT is the funniest thing I’ve ever read on here! NASA and the bible? ROFLMFAO!!! Oh my goddess! can’t breathe – laughing too hard

    Oh, and BTW SPF you might want to check your own spelling and grammer before you start questioning my command of the English language. I really do pitty the kids you taught.

  40. NASA . . . Hilarious

    . . . at least SPF is entertaining

  41. Sugar Plum Fairy 29 Jul 2009, 3:17am

    MY34-why are you here? Your interminable rantings about your take on your particular superstition are tedious, simplistic and ultimately boring. YOu say we don’t have to read them, and we don’t, but we do have to scroll past them.

    If that is the case, how do you know what I said.

    MY34-Your casual insults do your case no good: far from making you seem reasonable they just make you seem lame – the debating style of the playground, ad hominem attacks may make you feel like a winner, but in actuality they merely focus attention on you r paucity of evidence for anything you say.

    Why don’t you practice what you preach. Here are examples of the foul mouthed tormented twaddle that you and your mates write.

    2. Another dim witted fundamentalist believes in demons and
    possession.
    3. It amazes me how much religious freaks know so little
    about anything, but not a surprise when all religofacists
    suffer from realityphobia.
    4. UP YOURS, YOU CLAPPED OUT TERRORIST. WHY DO YOU INSIST ON
    SHITTING IN YOUR OWN NEST?
    5. More deranged Fundamentalist Christian Rantings from
    reality check.
    6. And hypocrisy is the staple diet of poorly educated
    religious people and bigots.
    7. hysterical nitwit
    8. whine like injured dogs,
    9. religious nutcases
    10. ignoramuses like you.
    11. figment of your crazed mind?
    12. You are nothing but a degenerate with a learning disorder.
    13. deranged Fundamentalist Christian
    14. bigoted bitch.
    15. screaming religious nutters
    16. poor deluded religious bigots
    17. “Christian” fundamentalist wingnuts
    18. bottom feeder retard
    19. sad trolls
    20. moron
    21. god-bothers
    22. HATE MONGERS AND FASCISTS
    23. ‘religious’ scum
    24. silly old white male god-botherers
    25. “You’re stupid damned fool!
    26. your foolish homophobia
    27. bloody f_cking colossal stupid black A.S.S.
    28. ps.: drop dead now please thanx
    29. secret lip gloss bitch
    30. Arse.
    31. religious crack pots
    32. Gaggle of inbred royal parasites.
    33. brain-dead fuckwit
    34. Racist piece of filth?
    35. a sad little intellectual midget you are.
    36. A small minded and silly buffoon
    37. sad bastard
    38. religious mania
    39. retarded gimp
    40. distasteful little troll.
    41. ‘crazed fools’
    42. You degenerate f*ckwit,
    43. A complete and utter arsehole.
    44. “bigoted racist piece of filth”.
    45. homophobic racist bitch.
    46. you mindless coward
    47. you are retarded
    48. You are a sickening little person.
    49. you have the brain power of a walnut.
    50. Freak.
    51. you sir are a prize buffoon.
    52. you must be the biggest arsehole who walked the planet.
    53. to expose you as a moron and an imbecile
    54. deranged lithium-addled mind
    55. homophobic racist bitch.
    56. vile, twisted little freak.
    57. warped mallicious religion
    58. expose you as a moron and an imbecile
    59. psychopathic and most defiantly a sociopath.
    60. deeper into that self-loathing rabbit-hole.
    61. if this psychopath is not banned.
    62. reality check ponce
    63. scum-bags like you
    64. cruel pieces of scum
    65. disgusting hateful bigots
    66. gay ‘cure’ lunatics
    67. ignorant bigots
    68. ASSHOLES
    69. fundy loo-loos
    70. radical religious terrorist
    71. nutters.
    72. bottom feeder retard
    73. “Christian” fundamentalist wingnuts
    74. complete NUTTER?
    75. Creationist Idiot
    76. degenerate with a learning disorder
    77. deranged and out of touch
    78. you are deranged and deluded

    Not exactly the stuff of rational, well educated and secure people.

  42. Sugar Plum Fairy 29 Jul 2009, 3:44am

    RG36-Can you expand on what you mean by this please. I mean if God doesnt condemn gay people and gay sex then why…I dont get it. Please explain.

    First of all, I did not say that God does not condemn homsexual sex. As usual, like everyone else you add your own misguided take on things.

    God says that he is not willing that any should perish but that all will come to repentance 2 Peter 3:9. That being the case, he obviously does not condemn anyone. You condemn yourself by your sin. Apart from your homosexuality, like everyone else, you need the salvation that God offers.

    When God created man, he created him perfect and to have perfect fellowship with him (see Genesis). Sin changed all that but God wasn’t willing to call it a day so he provided a sacrifice for sin through Jesus Christ.

    Accepting the salvation he offers is no more than saying that I cannot save myself. The thing that stops us doing that is pride. We don’t like to admit that we are not the answer to all out problems and we can work everything out for ourselves.

    When we stand before the judgment seat of Christ, he won’t ask you why you are a homosexual. He will ask you why you rejected him as the son of God and the salvation he offers you.

    Whatever excuse you make, you will be condemned by your own words.

    Your current position is most untenable. You say I don’t believe in all that mumbo jumbo on the basis of prejudice, not reality and you are prepared to sacrifice an eternity full of everything you wanted and you don’t have to do a thing to get it so that you can put two fingers up to God now and tell him he doesn’t exist, when you have no proof whatsoever. In other words you are sacrificing eternity for 70 years, if you live that long, of delusion and deception that will ultimately send you to hell. That is a very expensive price to pay for a few years of self destroying pride.

    I know that you won’t understand a word I have said uless the Holy Spirit opens your eyes and the only way that is going to happen is if you swallow your pride and ask him to show you the truth of the words that I have written. If you do that he will.

    Once he has shown you the truth, only an unmittigated fool would then turn his back on God.

  43. Sugar Plum Fairy 29 Jul 2009, 3:51am

    LEILAH39-Oh, and BTW SPF you might want to check your own spelling and grammer before you start questioning my command of the English language. I really do pitty the kids you taught.

    I do, so can you show me where it is wrong? probably not as evidence is not your strong point. By the way pity does not have two Ts.

  44. Sugar Plum Fairy 29 Jul 2009, 4:01am

    LEILAH39-NASA? Bwahahahahahahahahaha! I take it all back – THAT is the funniest thing I’ve ever read on here! NASA and the bible? ROFLMFAO!!! Oh my goddess! can’t breathe – laughing too hard

    As to be expected, you have shown your paucity of rational debate with your superciliious, arrogant, condescending,contemptuous, intolerant, overbearing and scornful comment.

    And just to make you look more stupid, I contacted Harold Hill and he said what I have written is true.

  45. O dear . . . what a temper tantrum!

  46. Mihangel apYrs 29 Jul 2009, 10:50am

    Let’s just ignor SPK – he’s here to stir things up (though I do question why a heterosexual person spends so much time on a gay site). If we ignore him he may go away. Alternatively, he’ll continue to spill his bible-based fantasies in the hope of sparking a response. Either way, it seems a sad way to spend one’s time – rather like me being totally hooked on “church vestment” site – it has nothing to give to my life.

  47. Rick George 29 Jul 2009, 2:30pm

    Ok Sugar Plum, first of all having read through the list of insults that have been aimed at you you will see that none of these have come from me because I love you. And I love you because I have some understanding of who you really are. And I understand why you think the things you think because I myself once ascribed to a belief system that manipulated my understanding of life through fear. I have outgrown that belief system and now I do not have a fearship with God I have a friendship with God. I understand that God is love and that love does not keep a record of wrongs, that love is patient and kind, that there are no limits to its faith, hope and endurance, that it always protects, trusts, hopes and preserves. I also understand that love is the energy which expands, opens up, sends out, stays, reveals, shares and heals. Yes I understand well enough what that means for my life and yours.
    You say that I dont believe in God yet I have never said that though it is clear that my understanding of God is somewhat different from yours. And why is that? It is because I have not been afraid to explore and consider different perspectives about life and God, even in the face of nay sayers who say the kind of things your saying to me about hellfire and brimstone, the wrath of God, demon possession and all the other devices that have been used to try and keep my bum planted firmly on the church pew every sunday.
    None of it makes any sense to me now and come to think of it none of it made much sense when I was actually involved with it. It didnt make sense because I had an inner sense of what real love was all about and it just didnt tally with my inner knowing of true love, of divine love and what that was all about and its meaning and promise.
    I am not prejudiced towards you Sugar Plum, I just have a, and I dont want this to sound like im trying to say im better than you because thats not what Im trying to say. I dont believe in a construction of ‘better than’. Its just that my spiritual understanding is more expanded and encompassing than where you are right now and I can see that because, in many ways, I was once where you are now spiritually. But if you have the courage to explore beyond the paradigm of what you currently accept as true, your understanding and awareness of God and life will be enlarged and expanded upon considerably and you will find that the truth is more unlimited than you imagined possible. So Sugar Plum, may I enquire as to how you arrived at the beliefs you currently have? Were you born and socialised into that belief system, or is it something you have arrived at through your own experience, and diligent and careful study and reflection?

  48. Just one question to Sugar Plum Fairy: how much do you get paid for this? And do the exgay guys pay you or do Pinknews to keep the site interesting?

    Or have you maybe paid some exgays so much for their excellent therapy that you feel you have just invested too much to admit it does not work which turned you – instead of a happy straight fairy – into a volunteer advocate? Sort of the way scientology works.

    No, hang on, much like the way scientology works.

    Listen to this: your friends and you are guilty of:

    - Ruining people emotionally and financially
    - Spreading lies and creating unnecessary problems for innocent people who never did anything to harm you
    - Quite a number of suicides.

    If God exists, I do not suspect he will strike you down as that does not seem to be a habit he entertains. If hell exists, I expect you to spend a few millenia in a kettle of boiling water, watching footage of play-pretend straight sex between ex-gay lesbians and gays. Hmmm… That sort of turns me on. Have I maybe caught exgay?

  49. Sounds like the sock puppet Reality Check is back again, and cannot get enough of this site!

    No surprise to hear he contributes to lots of internet websites – there are so many fanatical creationist nutcase dimwits out there (see his shopping list of insults, a pretty accurate list. Creationists ARE dimwits, what’s the problem???) – who will believe anything because they cannot think.

  50. Leilah rightly collapsed in fits of laughter at Reality Check / Sugar plum Fairy’s lunatic comments. The guy is clearly mad, as well as a moron.

    “NASA and the bible? ROFLMFAO!!! Oh my goddess! can’t breathe – laughing too hard” – absolutely.

    This is even funnier: “And just to make you look more stupid, I contacted Harold Hill and he said what I have written is true.”

    HOW DID YOU DO THIS SUGAR PLUM? MR HILL DIED IN 1986!

    MISSING DAY – DEBINKED COUNTLESS TIMES (SOURCE: NASA; URBANLEGENDS.ABOUT.COM)
    Comments: Though it has been debunked countless times, there are no doubt some Christians who still believe this tale and perhaps even find it rife with irony. Who would have thought that science, the nemesis of faith, would inadvertently be harnessed to prove one of God’s cosmic miracles true? Certainly not the scientists themselves, who work so hard to undermine biblical values with their secular theories on the origins of man and the universe.

    The person ultimately responsible for the story didn’t see it that way, however. I’m talking about Harry Rimmer, a Presbyterian minister and amateur archaeologist whose life’s mission, succinctly summarized in the title of his 1936 book The Harmony of Science and Scripture, was to bring the two seemingly incompatible world views together. That he had to forge said “harmony” out of speculation and hearsay doesn’t seem to have troubled him much.

    Totten vs. the astronomer

    Rimmer told of an encounter that took place toward the end of the 19th century (well before the advent of NASA, obviously) between a Bible-believing Yale professor named C.A. Totten and a skeptical British astronomer named Sir Edwin Ball. Having pored over a set of mystifying calculations for hours on end, Ball approached Totten and confided that he had discovered an entire day “lost out of time” — 24 missing hours that he couldn’t account for scientifically. Totten suggested that the answer might be found in the pages of the Holy Bible.

    Intrigued by the suggestion, Ball began working his way through the scriptures and found a tentative solution in the tenth chapter of Joshua, where it is written that God caused the sun and moon to stand still for one day. But there was a discrepancy. According to Ball’s own calculations, a day only lasted 23 hours and 20 minutes in Joshua’s time, the astronomer told Totten. “If the Bible made a mistake of forty minutes, it is not the Book of God!” Unruffled, Totten pointed his skeptical friend back to the scriptures, where in due time Ball discovered, in the second book of Kings, the account of God turning the sundial back 10 degrees.

    “This settled the case,” Harry Rimmer concluded, “for ten degrees on the sundial is forty minutes on the face of the clock! So the accuracy of the Book was established to the satisfaction of this exacting critic.”

    STORY LAPPED UP BY YOUNG EARTH CREATIONIST NITWITS
    Unfortunately, Rimmer could offer no documentation for this anecdote and no one has ever been able to find record of it outside of his book. As it happens, C.A. Totten himself had published a volume in 1890 purporting to prove the biblical accounts of the missing day and the backward-moving sundial true mathematically, but in it he made no mention of an encounter with a skeptical astronomer. And far from grounding his argument in science, Totten used calendrical calculations based on the assumption that the universe was only 6,000 years old.

    After Rimmer, the “missing day” story languished in comparative obscurity for decades, turning up now and again in Christian tracts and sermons until the 1960s, when it was revived by Harold Hill, an engineer at NASA’s Goddard Space Flight Center in Maryland who later went on to serve as president of the Curtis Engine Company. Hill, who died in 1986, always maintained that his version of the story was true, but given the glaring similarities between his account and Rimmer’s there can be little doubt that Hill simply updated it for a space-age audience and claimed it as his own.

    In How to Live Like a King’s Kid, an inspirational book published in 1974, Hill explained how the story became common currency. He often told it, he wrote, when lecturing to high school and college students on the subject of science and the Bible. Apparently someone liked it so much they transcribed it and mailed it around, and by 1970 versions naming Harold Hill as their sources began appearing in midwestern newspapers. Indeed, when we look at examples of those news stories from 36 years ago (the one below is from the News Journal of Mansfield, Ohio, dated April 11, 1970), there is verbiage exactly matching what we find in the emails still circulating today:

    Did you know that the space program is busy proving that what has been called “myth” in the Bible is true? Mr. Harold Hill, President of the Curtis Engine Company, in Baltimore, Md., and a consultant in the space program, relates the following development:

    I think one of the most amazing things that God has for us today happened recently to our astronauts and space scientists at Green Belt, Md. They were checking the position of the sun, moon, and planets out in space where they would be 100 years and 1,000 years from now. We have to know this so we don’t send a satellite up and have it bump into something later on in its orbits. We have to lay out the orbit in terms of the life of the satellite, and where the planets will be so the whole thing will not bog down!

    They ran the computer measurement back and forth over the centuries and it come to a halt. The computer stopped and put up a red signal, which meant that there was something wrong either with the information fed into it or with the results as compared to the standards.

    DATA WAS MISPLACED, NOT DOCUMENTED – ALL HEARSAY
    And so on. Unsurprisingly, Hill, like his predecessor Harry Rimmer, could not document the story. In a form letter he sent out in response to public queries, he claimed to have “misplaced” relevant details such as names and places. “I can only say,” he wrote, “that had I not considered the information to be reliable, I would not have used it in the first place.”

    NASA CLAIMS IT IS NONSENSE (OF COURSE)

    NASA scientists addressed the reliability of Harold Hill’s information from a technical standpoint in a March 25, 1997 Web site feature entitled “Ask an Astrophysicist,” essentially pooh-poohing the very premise of the story. The future orbits of the planets aren’t calculated by going “back and forth over the centuries” to plot their past positions, they explained. It’s done with simple, highly accurate formulae that can predict any future position of a planet based on its current position. “This calculation would not cover any time before the present, so some missing day many centuries ago, if it had occurred, could not be uncovered with this method,” the scientists wrote.

    “In general,” they concluded, “trying to prove events that are said to have occurred in the Bible, using scientific principles, doesn’t work. Most scientists draw a clear distinction between things that are taken on faith, and those that are testable and therefore falsifiable. Science deals with the later, and religion with the former.”

  51. “Once he has shown you the truth, only an unmittigated fool would then turn his back on God.”

    And only an unmitigated (this is the correct spelling of this word by the way) fool would say the things YOU do. NASA and the bible with he sun standing still… what a load of bollox. Keep typing, we love getting a cheap giggle from monkeys like you.

  52. Rick George 29 Jul 2009, 4:48pm

    Sugar Plum, and far from weakening my spiritual beliefs, my journey of exploring and considering many different perspectives, concepts and ideas about God, life, the universe and everything has strengthened my spirituality and my relationship with God.
    I wont pretend I have all the answers because Im still enjoying the questions but what I can say is that I am more confident of Gods love and acceptance and that I am less fearful of living my life, and finding joy in it, and also of assisting others towards living without fear, and finding joy in their lives. I am assured that God is not the egotistical, tyrannical, monarch that has been presented to you and me, but so so much more, so much much bigger than that, and that where you are now spiritually, you cant even imagine how much more and how much bigger God is than all that. But dont be afraid to step off the edge of your current beliefs, because you will find so much more beauty, joy and love in God and in life than you currently know. You have nothing to fear but fear itself.

  53. Hey Rick George, of course SPF has something to fear other than fear itself: losing the money to be had for being an ex-gay propagandist.

  54. Well Andy, he could do with spending some more cash to get the help he needs to deal with the childish tantrums he throws in here…. its like watching a child with an acute learning difficulties trying to tie his shoe lace.

  55. Rick George 29 Jul 2009, 6:40pm

    Sugar Plum, as a starting point I would gently urge you to watch and listen to the following video on youtube – Sam Harris At Idea CIty ’05, and give careful consideration to what is said there.

  56. Rick George 29 Jul 2009, 6:59pm

    and also God In The 21st Century: Bishop John Shelby Spong At OU

  57. Rick George 29 Jul 2009, 7:01pm

    OU should read UO

  58. SPF . . . if there was no true in what we say to you . . . you would not be getting so upset!

  59. SPF . . . if there was no truth in what we say to you . . . you would not be getting so upset

  60. Rick George 29 Jul 2009, 10:19pm

    Sugar Plum, might I also suggest you read and consider the material in the book From Queer To Eternity – Spirituality In The Lives Of Lesbain, Gay & Bisexual People by Peter Sweasey.

  61. Sugar Plum Fairy 30 Jul 2009, 9:10am

    T50-HOW DID YOU DO THIS SUGAR PLUM? MR HILL DIED IN 1986!

    Can you direct me to the post where I said WHEN I spoke to him?

    RG47-So Sugar Plum, may I enquire as to how you arrived at the beliefs you currently have? Were you born and socialised into that belief system, or is it something you have arrived at through your own experience, and diligent and careful study and reflection?

    No and yes.

  62. Sugar Plum Fairy 30 Jul 2009, 9:14am

    RG46-I myself once ascribed to a belief system that manipulated my understanding of life through fear.

    My relationship with God has never known fear. He told me that he is crazy about me. The fear factor is invented by people who want to put God in a bad light.

  63. Sugar Plum Fairy 30 Jul 2009, 9:17am

    A48– Ruining people emotionally and financially
    - Spreading lies and creating unnecessary problems for innocent people who never did anything to harm you
    - Quite a number of suicides.

    As does the homosexual way of life and those who insist it is normal.

    I know that you don’t like the truth, but my studies of suicide at university show very clearly that the high rate of suicide amongst homos is due to the rejection they experience from their own kind.

  64. I don’t think you went to university, Reality Check. Unless it was one of those college degree mills that you get in the Deep South.

    In any case, copying and pasting a myth – a debunked myth, an old wive’s tale – about NASA, shows what a complete moron you are, like all young earth creationists.

    “My relationship with God has never known fear. He told me that he is crazy about me.” – how do you know it was god, and not some trick of the mind? That’s the same answer that osama bin laden would give.

  65. @SPF
    “I know that you don’t like the truth, but my studies of suicide at university show very clearly that the high rate of suicide amongst homos is due to the rejection they experience from their own kind.”

    If this was a study you had published in a Peer-viewed Journal I might consider it . . . but I think what you are really saying when you mention your university assignment is that you find it difficult to make contact with gay men, sustain relationships with gay men, and have problems forming loving sexual relationships with men.

    The reason I say this is because you never mention love in relation to your contact with people, only love in relation to abstract concepts. I do not deny that you have a relationship with God, but you seem to be struggling to have loving relationships people, as opposed to supernatural beings.

  66. “He told me that he is crazy about me.”

    Ha! What a laugh…. he told you your WERE crazy, and so would a doctor.

    Adrian, you are quite right, there bis no way this twit went to college. I doubt he got to A levels, to be honest. He claims to be an IT teacher…. yeah right. His “understanding” of science is like that written by a child, or perhaps a household pet.

  67. SPF, why don’t you just answer my question: how much do you get for this???? Do you consider that enough for spredaing the evil disease of homophobia in society? Are you not afraid of that kettle and bad porn awaiting you?

    Have your highly scientific studies included a basic philosophy of science, logic and statistics course? You can find correlations between XYZ number of things but simple correlation is no proof for the existence of any one of a number of possible links between them. Further study is needed dumb*ss!!!

    If the Xtians got it wrong and there is such a thing as reincarnation, and you do not reincarnate into something harmless like a piece of crap, just make sure to choose a reputable academic institution next time…

  68. SPF 62.:

    “My relationship with God has never known fear. He told me that he is crazy about me.” – Sorry, I missed this one. You are either making bad jokes, wasting everybody’s time up here, or you need to find a nurse and tell her to give you your medicine buddy. In any event, bugger off and make sure not to break character again next time.

  69. SPF

    Sorry, I seem to be so distracted today… What’s the name of that guy that often makes comments up here and claims he had met all homosexual males and he knows all of them are selfish? Must be very busy that guy…

    I suspect he was probably one of your two informants in your survey and you lost the results of your interview with the other one in the fire that destroyed your library – all your books burnt to ashes, all three, and you weren’t even done colourig one of them, right? Would you say this might impact on the reliability of your conclusion? Just guessing here.

    Well anyway, I hope your college/uni is very proud of their product.

    Oh and hang on. You say rejection from homos causes other homos to commit suicide. Are you a table dancer? How on earth did you get your data? Were you hanging around on the top of high buildings with a parachute waiting for some gay to jump off? Is it very difficult to conduct an interview in free fall? Especially considering that you had to release your parachute half way to make sure none of your valuable findings are lost in the process.

    Well f*cking done! You are probably one of the most daring scientists I ever came across.

  70. Sorry once again, SPF. I meant to ask above are you into table rapping, rather than table dancing. Table dancer was a false friend from my mother tounge which has a word for a person who makes a table dance. They either do this by motion caused by the spirits of gays who committed suicide because oher gays were selfish to them, or possibly by the motion of their own knees – this bit is still uncertian, maybe with your admirable academic background you could investigate this.

    I just hope you might have found this telling slip of toungue on my behalf amusing. But if you are a table dancer, then by all means, please share that information too, possibly with some links to video footage of your art to the benefit and enjoyment of this small damned community up here.

  71. “why don’t you just answer my question: how much do you get for this????”

    Andy, this degenerate goes by many names here (Realitycheck, upandatem, SPF, and a few others I care little to remember), but his MO is always the same:- never to answer the questions. He can’t, you see.

    Questions are an anathema to people like SPF, because they undermine the fragile understanding he has of the hate he holds so dear. He just regurgitates false claims to make himself feel better about his miserable intelligence. I mean, who would give a toss what gay people do? Any well balanced person wouldn’t, and why would they, it has nothing to do with anyone. And science, real science that is, so elusive to our retarded SPF friend, is the bête noir of their world.

    He’s a idiot, in other words. With nothing to say of substance, he’s powerless to make a difference other than rant on a gay site and be shown up repeatedly for the moron he is by people better than him.

  72. Oh no Will, I am sure you are wrong. You people just do not know real genius when you see it. That is because you are only human and the Allmighty won’t talk to you, let alone be crazy about you. Pitiful little farts, how could you expect understanding SPF’s fundamental truths. Repent and pray!!!!

  73. Oh, beautiful response there SPF…. masquerading as Andy.

    What a childish fuck you are, SPF. This is clear proof that you have a problem…. and what a problem too! Little childish tantrums? Religious rantings? Oh, dear. Have to imposter others becuase you can’t get your point accross….

    ….what a laugh! Its like watching a retarded monkey trying to swim!

    You, SPF, are a complete buffoon. You’re pathetic, and we’re laughing at you.

  74. Tony Lambert 30 Jul 2009, 1:55pm

    Looks like you hit a nerve with the Sugar Plum Fairy there Will!

    Beautifully done! Now he’s having a little hissy fit. Bless. I feel bad though, its like laughing at a mental patient.

  75. “Allmighty won’t talk to you”

    Did I read this right???

    Now you’re gods secretary? You decide who he “talks” to???

    LMAO! OH. MY. GOD. What a complete nutjob you are, SPF!

  76. Sorry guys, it really was me in 72. I was just trying to give you a sarcastic parody of SPF. Hmmm, it seems like the imitation part went well, but I need to work on the sarcasm. I am sorry once again.

  77. I hope the real SPF will come back though, as I still have not given up hope that they will answer the following:

    * How much do you get paid for a propagandist job at Exgay?
    * How can you establish contact with suicidal victims of gay selfishness?
    * At what height do you have to release your parachute to ensure a safe landing?

    These I would really be interested in.

  78. No need to apologise Andy, SPF does this all the time, we’ve all seen it before, so thats why our first thought was he was imitating. He’s always doing it. Its what these religious muppets do, they have no personality of their own!

    You do a great impression of him! Too good! :)

  79. Rick George 30 Jul 2009, 6:14pm

    Sugar Plum, “And just to make you look more stupid, I contacted Harold Hill and he said what I have written is true.”

    “Can you direct me to the post where I said WHEN I spoke to him?”

    Re that:

    “…(Harold) Hill,like his predecessor Harry Rimmer, could not document the story. In a formal letter he sent out in response to public queries, he claimed to have “misplaced” relevant details such as names and places…”

    “No doubt Dr. Rimmer himself believed the story he told to be true. But the documentation which should provide the proof of the story is seriously and obviously lacking. How such stories originate is far more difficult to ascertain than how they circulate. Once a story has been invented, and “corroborated” with what seem to be credible names and relevant facts, well-meaning people often do not think through the story completely, or go to any trouble to investigate it further, and thus accept it as true. Once accepted, it then becomes fair game to be used in what the Bible-believer sees as a reasoned defense of God’s Word. From all evidence now available, the story of Ball and Totten is simply not true, and should not be used as a defense of the Bible as the Word of God.”

    “The “GSFC finds missing day” urban legend doesn’t make sense for the following reason. If we want to know where the planets will be in the future, we use accurate knowledge of their initial positions and orbital speeds (which would be where they are located now), and solve for their positions for some time in the future. We solve a very well determined set of equations that describe their motions. The major dynamical component of any planet’s orbital motion is determined by solving an equation (force is equal to the mass times the acceleration) which is the perhaps the most fundamental in classical physics. The validity and predictive power of this equation are well documented and can be seen every day: a recent example is the lunar eclipse that was visible to much of the world last Sunday. This calculation would not cover any time before the present, so some missing day many centuries ago, if it had occurred, could not be uncovered with this method. ”

    (Quotes obtained from About.com and other sites)

    Sugar Plum can you comment on these points please.

    “my studies of suicide at university show very clearly that the high rate of suicide amongst homos is due to the rejection they experience from their own kind.”

    Can you explain exactly how such data was collected and provide names and dates for the scientific research and experimentation that put forward this claim as an explanation for gay people committing suicide. Can you provide precise details of the sources that led you to this conclusion please.

  80. I wonder where SPF is… Stricken down by the Allmighty yet? Or maybe just talking to Him? I would love to hear an account of his research into suicide at university. I just wonder how a study with such a restricted scope as suicide at university can be the basis of relevant statements about gays in general. Or does a study on suicide at university mean that he went to a uni building to conduct a study there? Or did he maybe enroll at a uni for the purpose of studying gay suicide?

    Too much mystery at this point. I am intrigued and I hope he will come back to enlighten us, well at least to the degree that our underdeveloped mental capacity will allow him…

  81. Rick George 30 Jul 2009, 8:28pm

    Sugar Plum, and what is ‘normal’ for a person who has a sexual attraction to people of the same gender?

    “Spreading lies and creating unnecessary problems for innocent people who never did anything to harm you
    - Quite a number of suicides.

    As does the homosexual way of life and those who insist it is normal.”

    Can you provide a definition for the word ‘normal’, preferably without resort to a dictionary but in your own words please.

    And what exactly is “the homosexual way of life” because no ones ever actually explained what that means to me. I mean my life does not seem so far removed from how many other people conduct their lives. I work, I socialise with friends and family, I live with a significant other with whom I share similiar relationship issues common to other couples both straight and gay, my behaviour does not appear to differ in a significant way from many other so called normal human beings so I really dont get this term ‘homosexual way of life’. Could you explain what you mean by this term please.

    Also Sugar Plum there appear to be several questions that I have presented to you that you have not answered. Please could you provide answers for them. I have put revised versions below. thank you.

    In regard to the personal testimonies you have put forward to evidence your views on ex gayness, for want of a better term, could you enlighten me as to whether you have actually met these people, if you have actually spoken to them recently, or if you in fact quoting these testimonies from a book?

    (Questions in original context in comment 38)

    Also, why do you buy into these stories without question?
    (from 36)

    (And from 26)
    “Obviosly I dont share the same understanding of God as you so why are you satisfied that the things you believe about God are accurate? Why do you consider the bible the only valid authority of the principles and values God espouses?”

    Also, im presuming that in comment 61 you are telling that you were not born into the religion you currently ascribe to and that you have actually arrived at your current position through your own experience, and deligent and careful study. Could you explain exactly how that process took place, what you studied, what you read, what you experienced that got you to believe what you believe now? Why do you believe what you believe now? How did you get to that? and from where?

  82. Rick George 30 Jul 2009, 10:02pm

    Sugar Plum, how do you manage to keep your model of the world, your construction of reality intact in the light of:

    The Jesus Mysteries by Timothy Freke & Peter Gandy
    Jesus & The Goddess by Timothy Freke & Peter Gandy
    The Laughing Jesus by Timothy Freke & Peter Gandy
    Why Christianity Must Change Or Die by John Shelby Spong
    Rescuing The Bible From Fundamentalism by John Shelby Spong
    The Hidden Gospel: Decoding The Spiritual Message Of The Aramaic Jesus by Neil Douglas Klotz
    The Nag Hamidi Library & The Dead Sea Scrolls
    The Gospel Of The Essenes
    Deepak Chopra
    Richard Dawkins
    Sam Harris
    Neale Donald Walsch
    Elizabeth Kubler Ross
    Inner Christianity: a Guide to the Esoteric Tradition
    by Richard Smoley
    Quantum Physics
    Psychology
    philosophy
    theological scholarship
    spirituality
    mysticism
    and all of the other myriad sources of perspectives that seem at odds with your notion of an angry, jealous, tribal deity who condemns those who do not meet certain requirements to an eternity of suffering.

  83. Rick George 31 Jul 2009, 8:22am

    Sugar Plum, the more I think about it especially when I think about the time I have spent working with people who are homeless, have drug and or alcohol problems, mental health issues and offending histories, when I think about all the suffering in the world, and the causes of it the less I understand how anyone could believe that what basically amounts to saying God is angry with you because your not good enough is the appropriate response to human suffering.

  84. Well george that’s why out of that list, SAm Harris and Richard dawkins offer the most plausible explanations. I would certainly add AC Grayling, Dan Dennett and Christopher Hitchens to that list by the way.

  85. Rick George 31 Jul 2009, 5:21pm

    Yes Adrian T, indeed, and lets not neglect Ervin Laszlo, Gregg Braden, & Stephen Hawking. Oh & Michio Kaku and the myriad voices of contemporary spirituality whose names are too many to list all of them here. Some Ive already named above.

  86. Rick George 31 Jul 2009, 5:24pm

    Einstien, Jung

  87. Rick George 31 Jul 2009, 5:46pm

    Suga Plum, it seems to me that there are two opposing mindsets at work. One encourages us to go forward, to grow, to share and cooperate, to unite, to forgive, to heal, to love, to evolve, to grow, tells us that we can do it, that there is hope, that we should not be afraid, to trust and believe. The other discourages us, tells us to fight and go to war, to seperate, to withdraw and withhold, to kill, to hate, tells us that we cant do it and that there is no hope, that we should live in fear, shame & guilt. Now from where I’m standing its quite clear which one is which so how does it look from where you are?

  88. Sugar Plum Fairy 1 Aug 2009, 8:26am

    AT64-”My relationship with God has never known fear. He told me that he is crazy about me.” – how do you know it was god, and not some trick of the mind? That’s the same answer that osama bin laden would give.

    You wouldn’t understand AT as you faith is in the finite. Mine isn’t.

    JK65-If this was a study you had published in a Peer-viewed Journal I might consider it

    It was presented to a government enquiry into the subject. I realise that you are in bondage to peer review magazines and get no joy out of life as a result because you cannot compute that people who are not homos don’t spend all their time in acadamia so that they can present every article that has ever been written aobut anything. They are not so insecure as that.

    JK65-what you are really saying when you mention your university assignment is that you find it difficult to make contact with gay men, sustain relationships with gay men, and have problems forming loving sexual relationships with men.

    What I am really saying is that I studied the subject at uni and discovered that most homos commit suicide because of the rejection they suffer from other homos. Of course you have to ridicule what I said as it uncovers the real truth about the matter and I have learnt that homos do all they can to avoid the truth. Obviously my lecturer didn’t disagree with my findings as my paper on the subject got an A+ and he taught me anyway. Of course I understand that he had to be so called “homophobic” to dare to suggest such a fact.

    W66- Ha! What a laugh…. he told you your WERE crazy, and so would a doctor.

    If that is the best you can do I suggest you go home and suck your thumb.

    there bis no way this twit went to college

    I didn’t. I went to two unis. By the way, what is a “bis?”

    A67-choose a reputable academic institution next time…

    My second uni was considered the best in the country.

    A68-Sorry, I missed this one

    That doesn’t surprise me as your shallow and non existent understanding of reality is devoid of intellectual rigor.

    W71-but his MO is always the same:- never to answer the questions. He can’t, you see.

    Just like you as I am still waiting for answers to about 25 times I have asked for evidence. Obviously you don’t have any.

    W73-You’re pathetic, and we’re laughing at you.

    Not as much as I am laughing at you with all your childish rants, foul language and attempts to ridicule all for one simple reason…you have nothing intelligent to say but your too self absorbed to understand that.

    L75-LMAO! OH. MY. GOD. What a complete nutjob you are, SPF!

    How did you find the time to leave your sandpit to write such childish and immature words. My little 7 year old grandaughter could write more intelligently than you.

    A80- I just wonder how a study with such a restricted scope as suicide at university can be the basis of relevant statements about gays in general.

    As usual you are showing how childish and immature you are trying to rubbish someone else’s studies because they don’t line up with the gospel according to the gaystapo. You are so predictable and boring.

    RG81-Could you explain exactly how that process took place, what you studied, what you read, what you experienced that got you to believe what you believe now?

    I don’t think anyone would appreciate me listing the over 1,000 books I have in my personal library and the hundreds of books I referenced whilst I was studying at uni and theological college.

    RG83-to saying God is angry with you because your not good enough is the appropriate response to human suffering.

    I have never said that

    RG87-I don’t answer questions that are esoteric, meaningless and so generalised it could mean anything.

  89. Sugar Plum Fairy:

    Bonjour, mon trésor. Alors, te voilà. Tu es disparu pendant que nous nous embrassions comme des amis, et maintenant tu es en train de nous trahire. J’avais dons raison de me méfier de toi. Surtout sauve-toi pas, hein.

  90. AdrianT, John K, Will, Andy, Rick George, all you soldiers:

    Sorry I’m late, you wouldn’t believe what I’ve been up to. A haircut, manicure, what a great buy on summer shirts at…oh never mind.

    Just a word: SUGAR PLUM FAIRY = MONKEYCHOPS = STEWART COWAN.

    Don’t believe me? Nobody ever believes me!!

    Check out the writing styles – identical as three fingerprints from the same finger.

    Pumpkin Pie was right when he first noticed that Monkeychops was an ex-gay fundie, but Monkeychops was sleazy enough to babble his way around us.

    And here “it” is again dancing circles around us, and he’s got a profile on each one of us because he spent a month spying on us, and he now has all the time in the world to screw our minds around, because he has been chosen by God to show us the error of our ways, and in such a charitable way too.

    St. Monkeychops. Hm-m-m…His Holiness the Sugar Plum Fairy…m-m-m…Le Grand Chevalier Stewart Cowan…in black net stockings and 4-inch hells, I’m sure.

    I do believe his fundie church is supplying him with free sandwiches and coffee. Also, I still maintain that this guy is snorting coke.

    Bentham’s here; fun time!!!

  91. “there bis no way this twit went to college

    I didn’t. I went to two unis.

    No, you didn’t. Whats a “unis”, by the way? So, you’re a liar…. how’s that working out. Its simple to see you couldn’t have gone to “unis”, you don’t have any understanding of even the basics of science to get a computing degree….. Your childish tantrums and silly insults on a gay site (there’s a white paper in THAT alone), not to mention that you think god is “crazy” about you, shows everyone here you’re a complete lying fool. The only way you got a degree is by 4 tokens of the back of a Kellog’s cornflakes packet with £2.99 P&P….. so don’t make me laugh!

    Run along now and haw another little hissy fit, nazi-boy…. we’re too “self absorbed” to care what a degenerate like you think.

  92. Any news about Bryce Faulkner?

  93. Rick George 1 Aug 2009, 1:12pm

    RG81-Could you explain exactly how that process took place, what you studied, what you read, what you experienced that got you to believe what you believe now?

    I don’t think anyone would appreciate me listing the over 1,000 books I have in my personal library and the hundreds of books I referenced whilst I was studying at uni and theological college.

    RG83-to saying God is angry with you because your not good enough is the appropriate response to human suffering.

    I have never said that

    RG87-I don’t answer questions that are esoteric, meaningless and so generalised it could mean anything.

    From Comment 42
    “First of all, I did not say that God does not condemn homsexual sex. As usual, like everyone else you add your own misguided take on things.

    God says that he is not willing that any should perish but that all will come to repentance 2 Peter 3:9. That being the case, he obviously does not condemn anyone. You condemn yourself by your sin. Apart from your homosexuality, like everyone else, you need the salvation that God offers.

    When God created man, he created him perfect and to have perfect fellowship with him (see Genesis). Sin changed all that but God wasn’t willing to call it a day so he provided a sacrifice for sin through Jesus Christ.

    Accepting the salvation he offers is no more than saying that I cannot save myself. The thing that stops us doing that is pride. We don’t like to admit that we are not the answer to all out problems and we can work everything out for ourselves.

    When we stand before the judgment seat of Christ, he won’t ask you why you are a homosexual. He will ask you why you rejected him as the son of God and the salvation he offers you.

    Whatever excuse you make, you will be condemned by your own words.

    Your current position is most untenable. You say I don’t believe in all that mumbo jumbo on the basis of prejudice, not reality and you are prepared to sacrifice an eternity full of everything you wanted and you don’t have to do a thing to get it so that you can put two fingers up to God now and tell him he doesn’t exist, when you have no proof whatsoever. In other words you are sacrificing eternity for 70 years, if you live that long, of delusion and deception that will ultimately send you to hell. That is a very expensive price to pay for a few years of self destroying pride.

    I know that you won’t understand a word I have said uless the Holy Spirit opens your eyes and the only way that is going to happen is if you swallow your pride and ask him to show you the truth of the words that I have written. If you do that he will.

    Once he has shown you the truth, only an unmittigated fool would then turn his back on God.”

    I also have over 1000 books in my collection representing material from the fields of psychology, science, philosophy, religion, mysticism, medicine, spirituality, self help, history, archaeology, sacred scriptures and ancient wisdom texts, I also have a number of documentary films on dvd and a substantial amount of audio material and im still collecting. Suffice to say I can also back up where Im coming from with the evidence of a large amount of dead trees.
    Its clear to me now that you are avoiding answering my questions. You have still failed to provide a satisfactory response to the fact that has now been pointed out to you several times that the nasa and the bible story you have used to evidence some of your assertions has been soundly discredited as an urban myth.
    …to be continued..

  94. Will the Scouser 1 Aug 2009, 2:03pm

    Let’s just forget about the Sugar Plum Fairy, shall we?

    I think that some people simply don’t like being gay, just as some people don’t like the colour of their eyes, their height etc. They have a perfect right to try to change from being gay to being straight. They also have a perfect right to know that their chances of success are somewhere in the range between minuscule and zero, and that they would probably save themselves an awful lot of trouble and heartache if they could simply accept themselves as they are.

    On the other hand, to try to MAKE people want to change, by psychological or moral bullying or by otherwise making their lives intolerable, is simply despicable abuse and deserves nothing but condemnation.

  95. Mother Bentham 1 Aug 2009, 2:48pm

    The difference between a great bunch of guys like you (observation, not a compliment, don’t worry) and “it” is that Monkeychops is an empty stannous container.

    Now don’t put me on the spot by asking what ‘stannous’ means ‘cos I only bin to grade tree, and I niver made it to two unis.

  96. Mother Bentham 1 Aug 2009, 3:25pm

    …tutu unis

  97. Rick George 1 Aug 2009, 3:42pm

    Comment 93 continued…
    I think the thrust of my enquiry in comment 87 should be quite clear to a university graduate who claims to be a teacher and a journalist but I will oblige you by putting it in more basic terms. God is either a total asshole or he isnt, and I say she isnt. What do you say?

    As directly quoted from comment 42, you have spoken about judgement, condemnation and hell. Now im not unaware of the thoughts behind these concepts: that you must exceed to certain requirements or you will be killed, or made to suffer in some way. That God is some sort of egotistical, tyrannical monarch who demands obedience on pain of death. That there can be no deviation from the infallible and unquestionable sacred scripture that is the core of the ideology. Anyone who disagrees is an enemy, an outsider, an infadel, an unbeliever. They will/must be put to death/sent to hell/tortured/stoned/beaten. These are the concepts of an ideology of authoritarianism, tyranny, totalitarianism, legalism and fear. I wasnt born yesterday Sugar Plum. Ive been examining and observing religion for over 15 years.

    So on what grounds am I dismissing what you say as not from God? Its quite simple. Are they words of joy? NO. Are they words of love? NO. Are they words of truth? NO.

    What you say are words of separation, elitism, exclusivity, condemnation, emnity, superiority. Its clear that your mind is closed to giving serious consideration to any perspective that falls outside the paradigm of your understanding and Ive had this conversation countless times with different versions of you and its a tedious and boring intelectual deadend. I think we will just have to agree to disagree and leave it there.

  98. That really is the kindest thing, Rick George.

    Seems to me you have the makings of our very own embassador-gadfly to a fundie website. Ha ha.

  99. Rick George 1 Aug 2009, 5:40pm

    You have failed to provide any information as to sources of evidence for the claims you make that would enable others to assess for themselves the validity of such claims. You have lost all credibility in this debate as far as I’m concerned.

  100. How do you spell defeat?

    No more free sandwiches.

  101. Toutou unis… aw, forget it.

  102. Rick George 2 Aug 2009, 12:00am

    Sugar Plum,
    It was presented to a government enquiry into the subject. I realise that you are in bondage to peer review magazines and get no joy out of life as a result because you cannot compute that people who are not homos don’t spend all their time in acadamia so that they can present every article that has ever been written aobut anything. They are not so insecure as that.

    JK65-what you are really saying when you mention your university assignment is that you find it difficult to make contact with gay men, sustain relationships with gay men, and have problems forming loving sexual relationships with men.

    What I am really saying is that I studied the subject at uni and discovered that most homos commit suicide because of the rejection they suffer from other homos. Of course you have to ridicule what I said as it uncovers the real truth about the matter and I have learnt that homos do all they can to avoid the truth. Obviously my lecturer didn’t disagree with my findings as my paper on the subject got an A+ and he taught me anyway. Of course I understand that he had to be so called “homophobic” to dare to suggest such a fact.

    When did this government enquiry take place, who conducted it and how was the information obtained?

    you say you studied the subject at university and discovered that gay people commit suicide because of being rejected by other gay people. Where did you get that information from? How did you assertain this assertion? Can you provide information that would enable me to see the original enquiry/report for myself?

  103. Rick George 2 Aug 2009, 12:08am

    Sugar Plum, are you american? I suppose its a long shot but would you also provide the name of the university and the name of the lecturer.

  104. Rick George 2 Aug 2009, 12:27am

    Sugar Plum im guessing that you are in your 50′s or 60′s and Im guessng that you would have attended university in your mid 20′s to early 30′s. So were talking about 30-40 years ago thereabouts. So thats 1960s, 1970s. Am I warm?

  105. Rick George 2 Aug 2009, 1:29am

    King et al (2003) have published a valuable contribution to the literature regarding the mental health of lesbians and gay men. However, they erred in asserting that, ‘No study has examined whether gay and lesbian people have elevated rates of completed suicide….’ (p. 557). This is important because studies of sexual orientation and attempted v. completed suicide have yielded different results. Nearly all studies of sexual orientation and attempted suicide have found that gay men and lesbians have higher rates of self-harm than heterosexuals. Conversely, all studies of sexual orientation and completed suicide have concluded that gay men and lesbians do not die by suicide at a higher rate than heterosexuals.

    (Quote taken from article on sexual orientation and suicide found on the British Journal Of Psychiatry website.)

    Quote from Sugar Plum…”homosexuality produces suicides at a higher rate than the normal population”

  106. Get it all out of your system, Rick George. You are brilliant.

    It’s my guess SPF is hanging by the neck in his closet at this very moment wearing his Nazi ensignia.

  107. Sugar Plum Fairy 2 Aug 2009, 8:26am

    RG82-Sugar Plum, how do you manage to keep your model of the world, your construction of reality intact in the light of:

    And how do you manage to keep your model of the world, your construction of reality intact in the light of:

    Patterns of Discipleship in the New Testament by Longenecker
    Shepherding God’s Flock by Adams
    The Second Babylon by Hitchcock
    Living with Jesus Today by Ortiz
    Take Another Look at Guidance by Mumford
    Disciples of Faith by Finney
    Out On a Broken Limb by Smith
    Finney’s Systematic Theology by Finney
    What Kind of Country by Alton
    God’s Transforming Love by Ogilvie
    The Body by Colson
    Total Truth by Pearcey
    A Dangerous Grace by Colson
    Delivered from Evil by Joyner
    Dark Angels by Wagner
    The God Chasers by Tenney
    Mind Siege by LaHaye
    Territorial Spirits by Wagner
    Possessing the Gates of the Enemy by Jacobs
    Charles Spurgeon
    Charles Finney
    John Wesley
    Billy Graham
    Jonathan Edwards
    Rees Howells
    Derek Prince
    to name but a few.

  108. Sugar Plum Fairy 2 Aug 2009, 8:33am

    RG81-Can you provide a definition for the word ‘normal’, preferably without resort to a dictionary but in your own words please.

    In the context of the question someone who is not a homosexual.

  109. Sugar Plum Fairy 2 Aug 2009, 8:36am

    W91-No, you didn’t. Whats a “unis”, by the way? So, you’re a liar…. how’s that working out

    I would like to see the evidence that you have that I didn’t go to two unis? Rhetorical question becuase you know as well as I do that you don’t have any. Unis is plural for uni.

    Just another example I guess of the homos penchance for irrelevance and innuendo to make others look small to hide your own inadequacy.

  110. Sugar Plum Fairy 2 Aug 2009, 8:39am

    WS94-They also have a perfect right to know that their chances of success are somewhere in the range between minuscule and zero, and that they would probably save themselves an awful lot of trouble and heartache if they could simply accept themselves as they are.

    Yes, we had better keep quiet about the thousands of ex-homosexuals that walk the land. That will blow you theories sky high won’t it. I know at all costs you have to stop the truth being known or all is lost.

  111. Sugar Plum Fairy 2 Aug 2009, 8:48am

    RG102-When did this government enquiry take place, who conducted it and how was the information obtained?

    The government conducted it obviously and the information was obtained by conducting an enquiry in 1995.

    you say you studied the subject at university and discovered that gay people commit suicide because of being rejected by other gay people. Where did you get that information from? How did you assertain this assertion? Can you provide information that would enable me to see the original enquiry/report for myself?

    From sources that all good essays get their’s from, the uni library and the internet and the lecturers lectures.

    What information do you want that a google search won’t provide you?

  112. Sugar Plum Fairy 2 Aug 2009, 8:50am

    RG105-(Quote taken from article on sexual orientation and suicide found on the British Journal Of Psychiatry website.)

    No one gets an A+ by quoting from one source.

  113. Rick George 2 Aug 2009, 12:55pm

    Sugar Plum, you have still not, as requested, provided me with information that would enable me to see the full report/enquiry
    for myself. And when I say how was the information obtained I mean literally how was the information obtained. Were medical records accessed? Did they ask these people before or after they had attempted suicide? I mean presumably if a suicide was successful they wouldnt be interviewing a corpse. So please enlighten us as to how exactly this enquiry was conducted.

    name the university, name the lecturer, name your sources.

  114. “Just another example I guess of the homos penchance for irrelevance and innuendo to make others look small to hide your own inadequacy.”

    This should read “Just another example I guess of the religious idiots penchance for irrelevance and innuendo to make homosexuals look small to hide your own inadequacy.

    Thats better. And more truthful.

    Oh, and the correct spelling is penchant – two universities you say? Yeah right, you’re clearly an illiterate idiot.

  115. Sugar Plum Fairy 3 Aug 2009, 3:08am

    W114-Oh, and the correct spelling is penchant – two universities you say? Yeah right, you’re clearly an illiterate idiot.

    zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

  116. Sugar Plum Fairy 3 Aug 2009, 3:09am

    RG1123-name the university, name the lecturer, name your sources

    why?

  117. Oh, dear. Point out that SPF has a illiteracy issue, from a lack of education, and he falls asleep. Such convenient narcoleptic behaviour, isn’t it?

    What a fool.

    A monumental fool and a lair.

  118. Rick George 3 Aug 2009, 11:43am

    Sugar Plum, because I would like to obtain a copy of the original enquiry on which your claims are based and read it for myself. I would like to be able to see for myself the material on which your claims, about why gay people commit suicide, are based. Please provide information that will enable to do that. Thank you.

  119. Rick George 3 Aug 2009, 4:57pm

    Sugar Plum re-107 and how I make sense of Life, the universe and everything.

    I rely, to a degree, on the insights provided by science. I also read widely, on a broad spectrum of topics such as psychology, spirituality, quantum physics, philosophy and religion. I don’t take in everything I read as true but analyse and evaluate with the following questions in mind.

    Is this material providing me with insights that expand and enlarge my understanding, knowledge and awareness?
    Does this material contradict established fact?
    Is this material encouraging and validating prejudice & intolerance towards others?
    Are the claims that are being made verifiable, testable?
    What do people from other backgrounds and perspectives say about this?
    Does this material encourage violence, aggression and hostility?
    What principles and values is this material seeking to validate?
    Is this material balanced, well rounded, rational, objective?
    What are the qualifications and the field of expertise of the person who has produced this material?

    That is the basis on which I will evaluate the material you have outlined. Having done some research on Amazon, reading synopsis, introductions and reviews for the material you put forward my initial assessment is that a lot of it would not withstand objective scrutiny and rational enquiry. Quite a lot of the material you have mentioned here seems to be on the subject of demonology and spiritual warfare or by people who hold such beliefs. My understanding is that such things fit into the category of superstition and the paranormal and as such do not stand up to scientific, rational and objective scrutiny.

    I have copied the following from Wikipedia for those who are not familiar with concept of demonology and spiritual warfare.

    Christian demonology
    Main article: Christian demonology
    In Christianity, a demon is traditionally an evil spirit, not human in origin, and bent towards the destruction of mankind using every guile imaginable.
    Certain denominations[citation needed] believe that a demon can get access simply by acknowledging or accepting its presence. Acceptance often means committing sin; eg. demons gradually gain control of the eyes when the eyes sin by looking at things vile, gain control of the tongue when it is used for slander or blasphemy, and can make it slip, etc, and this can spread to other parts of the body, regardless of whether the sinner calls himself Christian or not. This is called possession. In more extreme cases, the demon gains an actual entrance into the bodily frame, leading to disastrous results, often hideous and antagonistic. There are examples of such in the Gospels.

    Spiritual warfare is the concept that demons or fallen spirits attempt to thwart goodness and the will of God. Some[who?] believe this “warfare” to be manifested in multiple ways, including by demonic possession, demonic harassment, by attacks on a person’s thoughts, relationships, or life with God.
    Contemporary Evangelical circles are particularly interested in the concept of spiritual warfare. Some Evangelicals[citation needed] believe that when someone is attacked by demons or fallen spirits, the targeted person can combat the attack by prayer, fasting, consulting with their spiritual advisers, and perhaps also by a process known as casting out demons.

  120. Rick George 3 Aug 2009, 6:46pm

    If you’ve found your path and it works for you and your happy with it thats marvellous and good luck to you Sugar Plumb but its not for me, thanks all the same.

  121. Rick George 3 Aug 2009, 6:56pm

    My request in 113 and 118 still stands though Sugar Plumb, if you would be so kind.

  122. Rick George 3 Aug 2009, 11:57pm

    Just done some youtube research on Billy Graham. Now I think I could relate to him. Robert Schuller is great, Ive read some of his books and theyve been very helpful. Maybe a bit of common ground here Sugar Plum.

  123. Rick George 4 Aug 2009, 12:59am

    Further youtube research Charles Spurgeon, no definitely not, Finney ummm no ish, John Wesley maybe – gets points for being called a heretic by a baptist, Jonathan Edwards not sure if you mean the guy who ran for the precidency and cheated on his wife or the singer, I hope its the singer he seems alright. Ah ha, Ive found the right one now and am not impressed, what a misery he is, definitely no.
    No Sugar Plum, I think Ive read and heard enough now and its not for me. If your happy with all that and it works for you then good for you and I wish you well, sincerely I do, but definitely not for me im afraid.

  124. Sugar Plum Fairy 4 Aug 2009, 2:49am

    W114-Thats better. And more truthful.

    We do live in a dream world don’t we.

    W117-A monumental fool and a lair.

    I have to admit to never having been a bed or a resting place for an animal.

    RG118-Sugar Plum, because I would like to obtain a copy of the original enquiry on which your claims are based and read it for myself. I would like to be able to see for myself the material on which your claims, about why gay people commit suicide, are based. Please provide information that will enable to do that. Thank you.

    What’s your next joke? One thing I have learnt on this site is that homos are not interested in anything written by someone else unless they agree with their homo religion. As my paper obviously doesn’t it is a complete waste of time telling you anything.

    All I am interested in is what my uni lecturer thought of it (A+) and what the government thought. Beyond that you are totally irrelevant.

    RG119-That is the basis on which I will evaluate the material you have outlined.

    Good for you. Hope you enjoy straining your brain to comprehend the infinite with the finite.

    RG121-My request in 113 and 118 still stands though Sugar Plumb, if you would be so kind.

    My request for evidence asked for in about 25 different places still stands, if you and your mates would be so kind.

  125. Ha! What a lame little response, but predictably angry and irritated…. when you get something new and marginally interesting to say, by all mean enlighten us, we’ll be all ears…. instead of your dull repetitive insults. And how “christian” of you…. I’ve seen spiders behave more christian than you, but then again, isn’t that true of most sanctimonious and silly christians?

    A hypocrate AND a Fool. What a splendid array of achievements!

  126. Rick George 4 Aug 2009, 9:41am

    Well now your just being rude Sugar Plumb and thats not very fair. I would like to see the paper despite what you claim and I am not afraid to consider material that may disagree with or challenge my understanding. I have done so several times in my spiritual walk and will continue to do so. I actually quite like to because it makes me think, ask more questions, open dialogues, read more widely and thereby expand and enlarge my understanding and awareness. So please let me have the information that would enable me to read it for myself and make up my own mind. And if its as good as you say I may be converted and saved and thats got to be worth some bonus points in heaven hasnt it? I mean what will you say before the judgement seat of Christ when he asks why you didnt save one who was so hungry for the spirit and you refused the one thing that may have saved him, and goes on to point out that whatever you did to the least of these you did it to him?
    I would like to see the original enquiry and read it for myself please Sugar Plumb. Please provide the information that will enable me to do that. Thank you.

  127. Rick George 4 Aug 2009, 10:03am

    The 1995 government enquiry you mentioned, how did you get hold of it? How would I be able to get hold of a copy? Does it have a title?

  128. Rick George 4 Aug 2009, 10:30am

    SP. “Good for you. Hope you enjoy straining your brain to comprehend the infinite with the finite.”

    Well you dont seem to have made such a good job of it yourself!

    SP. “My request for evidence asked for in about 25 different places still stands, if you and your mates would be so kind.”

    Ok, I’ll take on the challenge. Evidence for what? What is/are the question/s?

  129. Rick George 4 Aug 2009, 10:45am

    SP. “All I am interested in is what my uni lecturer thought of it (A+) and what the government thought. Beyond that you are totally irrelevant.”

    remind me again about what you said about other people not being open to considering different perspectives.

  130. Rick George 4 Aug 2009, 12:25pm

    SP. “All I am interested in is what my uni lecturer thought of it (A+)”

    “No one gets an A+ by quoting from one source.”

    “as my paper on the subject got an A+”

    “I don’t think anyone would appreciate me listing the over 1,000 books I have in my personal library and the hundreds of books I referenced whilst I was studying at uni and theological college.”

    “From sources that all good essays get their’s from, the uni library and the internet and the lecturers lectures.”

    and what was it you were saying earlier about pride?

  131. Rick George 5 Aug 2009, 8:35am

    What if I were to say that I would like to be what you call “normal”? What if I were considering trying to become heterosexual and wanted to find out more about how that could happen but that I was scared? Would you be more helpful and cooperative then?

  132. Rick George 5 Aug 2009, 8:49am

    Would I have to take time off work? How much would it cost?

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