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Anger as Bible is defaced in the name of art

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  1. Defacing a bible left by a group with a long history of tolerancce for the gay community is a direct slur on that group. They are making an effort and that should be respected.

  2. Maybe these cowards should try using a Koran next time? I guarantee you there wouldn’t be a third attempt.

  3. Andy & Steve 24 Jul 2009, 3:55pm

    Oh please! It’s a work of fiction, what would be said about writing “fuck” in a Harry Potter book……..nothing. The Bible is a fairy story written by mentally unstable fantasists, end of.

    As such it deserves no more respect than Enid Blyton…

  4. Of all the ways of venerating the bible!
    Who would ever thought of stuffing it in your knickers?

  5. SImon Murphy 24 Jul 2009, 5:53pm

    Why are people upset? It’s only a book. If some people believe that it is the word of ‘god’ then that’s fine. It’s their own interpretation. If other people regard it as a polemic designed to promote hatred and exclusion then that’s just as valid an interpretation. It’s a work of fiction. There is no obligation to hold it in any esteem if you don’t feel like it.

  6. Brian Burton 24 Jul 2009, 6:29pm

    I am a Gay Christian and proud of it. What Mis-guided idiots the organisers are. They were asking for the Bible to be abused and it was. Glasgow is supposed to be the ‘City of Culture’ Well, it looks like the ‘City of Pillistines’ from where I’m sitting. How perjudiced most people are about sujects they are afraid of, like Religion and Homophobia, well, we Gays know their prejudises. To understand prejudice you have first to be capable of Love and to Love you need passion. A person who defaces any work of literature, is an iliterate fool and condems all who appreciate the written word. Things you can touch phisically is of no real importance. It is the Spiritual that counts with me.

  7. - He defended the work, stating: “If we are to open up the Bible for discussion, surely we have to invite people to speak out. Art allows us to discuss difficult things.” –

    That pretty much nails it right there, however since the religous folks involved do sound like kindly sorts I’ll still have sympathy for them.

    It just wasn’t a savvy move to leave it in a public arena if they didn’t want negative responses, no matter how well intentioned they might be.

    If you took the world’s prettiest, most romantic picture of two men kissing and left it open to the general public with a “write your feelings on this” placard… a week later it’s going to bear sentiments that make bunnies cry and the world feel a worse place.

    Live and learn, try not to lose heart.

  8. At school we used to use the thin paper pages out of those little Gideons bibles they gave you as substitute rolling paper for ciggies! I did not realise it was such a work of Art!

  9. Gays should be seen and not heard. They want your name to be seen but have little interest in what you want to say. There is genuine anger in regards to the bible and it needs to be expressed.

  10. The best way to reclaim the bible is to put it into the compost bin.

  11. I have a certain amount of sympathy as the MCC is a very pro LGBT church… but the fact remains that the bible has been used for 2000 years to opress gay people. Also, it is book. Yes, it is a book that means a great deal to a lot of people but presumably their faith can withstand a little grafitti.

  12. Nobody would do this to the Qu’aran (Koran) or Jewish Torah because you’d be labelled as a racist or an anti-semite
    so let’s pick on the Christians yeah!

    Cowards.

  13. “the most offensive messages will be removed”. Censorship strikes again! Don’t these chrsitianits know how offensive the bible is when it is continually used as a weapon to attack gay people?

  14. Brian Burton 24 Jul 2009, 11:19pm

    Lezabella,
    You are absolutley right, they would’nt! They are Craven Cowards!

    Hope you are Feeling tickety-boo Lezabella, I made you chuckle on the Osca thred I remember?

  15. This does make me angry. This is vandalism, not art.

    It was carried out by stupid people who have no idea that ordinary, good-living Christians do not worship the Bible but God and the Spririt of Love that the world needs so badly.

    Never mind how badly it was interpreted in the past or by fundamentalists today; secular laws have been reeking havoc since the dawn of civilization, so why not deface the laws books, and call that art? Or is that illegal?

  16. The bible OBVIOUSLY provokes strong feeling within people, even if you happen to believe it is the work of “god” then it is is written for every single humanbeing. inviting people in to comment upon it cannot be sensored as it is written for ever person and every person is entitled to their view. it is clearly not art if it has been censored as art is a representation of humanity and to sensor it is to ignore the views of thosands of humans. what a load of balls. if you are going to be an artist and try something like this at least have the guts to see it through. everyone who is affected by the words of the bible are entitled to their own view even if they are not christian or even if you disagree with this example of arr because you happen to be part of the “god” squad then please give a thought to this.
    this piece of art had potential, but to censor it is just ludacrious, how can art be censored. not one single person alive has a more correct view on how to interperate the bible than another. fact. if someone would like to disagree i will be requiring proof that explains why there are seven major world religions that are profoundly different and even withinin abrahamic, or more specifially in thie case, christian religions, that are so fractured into little denominations that all fundamentally disagree with each other over meer interpertation of the same text, why should you have a greater voice that someone who disagrees with you. stop getting so bloody uppity it is little more than boring. no one is right more that they are wrong, your are entitled to your view just as woman are allowed to be pissed at the disgusting practices the bible would seem to implore, just as gays are allowed to speak out against the biggotry that is emdemic in society thanks to this precious book, just as anyone black is eentitled to be annoyed that this book literally advertised slavery etc etc
    im not saying every religios person is a bad person all I mean to highlight is that you cannot just white wash the implications this text has had on humanity, you can highlight the good but to ignore the bad is not art, its not even christian. it is a lie

  17. Simon Murphy: “Why are people upset? It’s only a book.”

    Then we can all call you a screaming faggot. I mean, it’s only a name.

    I may not support organised religion, but I respect their faith, and equally they should respect our lifestyle. This sort of act just pushes the two parties further apart and achieves nothing but animosity.

  18. Recently I heard an Irish man describe being raped and beaten as a child by members of a RC order and being given Holy Communion by the same abusers the following day. That is blasphemy, not a few scribblings and babblings on an old bible.

    Please watch. It is very, very sad.

    rte.ie/news/2009/0525/qanda_av.html?2550054,null,230

  19. Stewart Cowan 25 Jul 2009, 1:07pm

    Brian Burton – what can I say other than the Lord loves you and has made His Plan of Salvation clear. Giving in to unnatural lusts is losing the battle against the flesh.

  20. Brian Burton 25 Jul 2009, 1:19pm

    RobN,
    You are dead right as usual RobN. Look at the animosity It’s caused on this thread! If there was more folk around that thought like you, life and society would be much better.

  21. Brian Burton 25 Jul 2009, 1:23pm

    Stewart Cowan.
    I recon you are one of those hidious fundamentalists. So your advice in things Spiritual, I do not need!

  22. Brian Burton 25 Jul 2009, 1:26pm

    Abi1975,
    I think you ought to get back where you truly belong, the compost bin!

  23. Brian Burton 25 Jul 2009, 1:39pm

    Bentham,
    Thank you for your valuble support on this thread.

  24. Stewart Cowan 25 Jul 2009, 2:39pm

    Brian Burton – I’m sorry about your reaction. Fellow Christians should be able to talk things through, shouldn’t they?

  25. Brian Burton 25 Jul 2009, 4:53pm

    Stewart Cowan,
    Well, what do you want to ‘Talk Through’ as you put it? Do you want to preach Religion to the converted? I have been a Christian since 1954 when I was confirmed into the C. of E. but have changed to U.R.C. by the Grace of God and I am livivg a sober and up-standing life. (Never boring) I dislike Poitics, I clicked on your name and I can see what you prefer! Opium for the masses? I very much doubt wheather we would see eye to eye.

  26. Christina Engela 25 Jul 2009, 6:08pm

    “”A spokesman for the Church of Scotland said it condemned any sacrilegious act and stated: “We would discourage anyone from defacing the Bible.”

    Who gives a toss? I mean, really…

  27. Stewart Cowan 25 Jul 2009, 9:09pm

    Brian, if we wouldn’t see eye to eye then one of us isn’t a true believer.

    Which is more important to you – your spiritual or sexual life?

  28. Stewart Cowan

    You split being a truth believer into spirituality Vs sexuality

    Strange how god does not want Christians to reproduce?

    So presumably Fundamentalist Evangelical Christianity will be extinct shortly

  29. Steward Cowan:

    Congradulations! Your name has just been added to our list of religious nutters who believe a human being has to chose between having a sexual life or a spiritual life. When exactly did Jesus say any such thing?

    Get a life.

  30. Stewart Cowan 25 Jul 2009, 11:35pm

    I was actually hoping for a response from Brian.

    Bentham, the battle is spiritual vs carnal. Sins are often carnal and that includes sex outside of marriage.

    John K – the Bible makes clear that humans are to reproduce and that homosexual behaviour is a sin. How can you obey His command to get married and have children if you’re in a homosexual relationship?

    You might be interested in my blog post today that shows people are chemically dispositioned to bring up children in a heterosexual setting.

    It all makes perfect sense when you don’t let sin get in the way.

  31. Mihangel apYrs 26 Jul 2009, 12:20am

    @Stewart Cowan
    do not presume to speak in the name of your god. You believe certain things, others of your sect blief something else. It’s only at the foot of the Throne (if you believe in YOUR superstition) that you can know what your god thinks.

    Show humility and think that you may be wrong. And approach that Throne fearfully: HE will judge your heart,and your feelings towards others will be assesssed according to your god’s standards.

  32. @Stewart Cowen

    “How can you obey His command to get married and have children if you’re in a homosexual relationship?”

    We can get married . . . have you not heard of civil partnerships
    We can have children . . . have you not heard of co-parenting or adoption

  33. Stewart Cowan 26 Jul 2009, 3:05am

    Mihangel apYrs – we have scripture to go by. If anyone claims to be a Christian, they must accept certain things, otherwise on what else can they base their faith?

  34. Stewart Cowan 26 Jul 2009, 3:06am

    John K – I think you know what I mean!

  35. Stewart Cowan:

    Brian has too much common sense than to waste his time ansewring your jibberish.

    You’ve had the spotlight long enough. Tell us in a word or two what you think of the issue at hand, before we summon our experts.

    On the other hand, stick around. We won’t keep you waiting long. Crudité? Something to drink? Won’t you have a seat? You don’t mind if I lock the door, do you…for your own safety I mean. Sleep tight.

  36. Brian Burton 26 Jul 2009, 6:39am

    Bentham,
    Thank you again, we seem to have a very minor David Skinner stalking us on this thread!

  37. Brian:

    You keep him busy. I,ll run out and get some more crudité. Hm-m-m, do you think he/she would like celeri sticks, olives and a white cream cheese dip? The things I do to help the mentally ill!

  38. To Stewart Cowan I have to say that any mainstream Christian can, and will, tell you where your fundamental error is. Your basic error is in your belief that the Bible defines Christianity. It doesn’t! The Church, and the promise made to Peter, defines Christianity. The Church, and the Spirit Who moves our Church, defines the parameters of our Christian faith – not some faulty, badly translated and dubiously interpreted, probably erroneous in many salient points, ancient set of texts.

    Learn, mark and inwardly digest (and in the process grow up and grow away from your superstitious belief in, and raising of, the Bible as an icon of worship): it is the Church which defines the Bible not, please note, the other way around. If you believe that the Bible is the sum and definer of our faith then you are in heresy. The Church as moved by The Spirit is the proponent of our faith – not the Bible, and may I repeat that, not the Bible. The Church defines the Bible, not the other way around.

    The Bible may be, probably is in many aspects, the Word of God but, and it’s a big but, it is, for mainstream rational Christians operating in the Spirit, the Word of God filtered through the fallible minds of men and women – minds which carry with them the prejudices and petty beliefs of the worlds in which they live, or lived, as they wrote, or translated, our Holy texts.

    You said, at Comment 33 in your reply to Mihangel ap Yrs:

    “…we have scripture to go by. If anyone claims to be a Christian, they must accept certain things, otherwise on what else can they base their faith?”

    For me, and for all other mainstream Christians, that reveals the precise extent of your superstitious and lacking belief in the redemptive power of God, Christ and the Spirit. You base your claim upon some dubious written word – a written word the accuracy of which we cannot guarantee as absolute or correct nor can we claim it to be as originally written – and thereby you reveal your ignorance of Biblical recension and your dependence upon mere superstition. You have exalted the Bible above God and His Spirit Who moves us.

    You, sir, may base your faith upon the Church Universal and the Spirit who moves it, as I do. You may not like the direction the Spirit moves us in – that’s your problem – but if you truly believe then you will accept it and learn to love anew and as the Spirit moves and not as your wilful prejudices dictate!

  39. @Stewart Cowan

    “Mihangel apYrs – we have scripture to go by. If anyone claims to be a Christian, they must accept certain things, otherwise on what else can they base their faith?”

    So when will you be sacrificing a goat for us . . . ?

  40. @Stewart Cowen

    “John K – I think you know what I mean!”

    I do not know what you mean could you clarify.

    You say . . . “How can you obey His command to get married and have children if you’re in a homosexual relationship?”

    The fact is

    We can get married . . . have you not heard of civil partnerships
    We can have children . . . have you not heard of co-parenting or adoption

  41. Brian Burton 26 Jul 2009, 1:22pm

    Bentham,
    Please no cheese dip, I saw a queen’s silly wig fall in the cheese dip at a soiree once!

  42. I remember Brian, you always make me laugh! :)

  43. Brian Burton 26 Jul 2009, 1:50pm

    Bentham,
    Please no cheese dip! I saw a queen’s silly wig fall into the cheese dip at a soiree once!

  44. Brian Burton 26 Jul 2009, 2:26pm

    John M.J.
    What an inspiring Epistle to the sadly mis-guided ‘Cowens’ of this world. I never thought of the Bible being exalted above God and the spirit that moves us. In my United Reformed Church, the Bible readings are just something we try to understand and put into practice in our daily lives. At least, that is what the Minister sugests after the reading. Religion is such a compelling but complex subject for a person like myself. I first belive in God, the Creator. All the writings after that are of little consequence…By that I mean, God is in my head and in my understanding, the writing’s are just so many words. But Christian Love is important to me. Your Love shines through your writings as Benthom’s dose also…. I cannot understand The Cowans of this world who’s ambition is to ram their kind of very narrow Religious beliefs down our throats. I now feel sorry for the poor guy and sincerly hope he sees the ‘Light’ before it’s too late..he’s out-numbered on this thread!

  45. Brian Burton 26 Jul 2009, 3:03pm

    Lezabella,
    Thank you for the Koran and Torah comments on the thread…you are dead right, they are cowards!
    In the news-agents shop, I see Jordan is Keeping company with a Pro. Boxer now….In contrast, when me and my Partner came home from the shops. A health Mag. I receive periodicly was through the door. There is a wonderful article in the Mag. about a Lesbian couple whoe have been together for fifteen years. The article starts: Historically, Lesbian relationships have probably been even more invisible than those of Gay men. This has ment that it has been possible for health services to remain oblivious to any special needs Lesbians may have. The problem one of the Girls has is, one of them had bowl-cancer and now has a ‘Stoma’ You will have to look it up Lezabella under ‘Oncology’ Anyway, the Girl with the problem is fully supported by her Partner. They are now Civil Partnerd also. It is quite a long article in the mag. It is a Medical mag. you cannot purchase one in shops. I wish you could read it….See you Princess!

  46. Did you see a heretic lose his footing? Lucky for us John M.J. dropped by; I was at me wit’s end trying to find the doilies and the napkins, and the loo needed cleaning and…work is never done..

    Now what am I going to do with all these crudités? I know, I’ll just drop them into the Crock Pot with the chicken…chicken, get it? Oh, forget it. I miss Keith already.

    Imagine what all those guys were saying about the Bible. If it wasn’t for Mihangel and RobN, I’d think them all uncibilized. Oh well, I was young once too, and I ain’t better than anybody, just ask me maw, God love her.

  47. Mihangel apYrs 26 Jul 2009, 4:36pm

    Bentham, I am actually philosophically an agnostic, and for practical purposes atheist. However I have dear friends who are believers, some of teh cloth, so I know that people I respect and admire have faith. Yhe difference is that they live their faith and hope, by example, to show a Xian way. I have little time for those who know “the truth”: if there is an omnipotent god I can’t him fitting in the little box they’ve made for him!

  48. Brian Burton 26 Jul 2009, 5:19pm

    Bentham,
    I warned Keith about long-haul flight and ‘deep vein thrombosis’ which could happen if he was on a plane where it was difficult to move your legs. I think he will be sensible on the way to Thailand. I miss him too.

  49. At what point is Christianity and homosexuality mutually exclusive?
    I mean, if people want to believe that there is life everlasting, and that the meek shall inherit the Earth, then go ahead, be a sad little poof. ;o)

  50. John K:

    A goat…? haha!

  51. Mihangel ap Yrs:

    Thank you kindly for the feed back. I can tell you are a good man, mon ami. Observation, not flattery. Just continue being who you are; you’re doing alright.

    As for me, well…approaching mid-60’s; a disillusioned cradle Catholic, especially since the the RCC failed to grasp the monumental importance of Vatican II, and what’s-his-face told me I was inherently evil because I am 100% gay, proud of it, in a 19-year same-sex relationship and still very much ‘en amour’.

    So, I’m in the process – at my age everything is a process – of turning away from the RCC; I am thinking of agnosticism and humanism, but I don’t know that I could ever live well if I attempted to suppress my spirituality.

    I’ve been browsing www dot gaywisdom dot org (New York) for four years – now that’s a process! Is it true that gaywisdom is blocked from within the UK…forgot who told me that?

    Another site I enjoy is Christian de la Huerta’s ‘Soulforce’ in San Francisco (Q-Spirit).

    I look at it as doing the groceries…ain’t got time for resentment, but I do enjoy whacking the Vatican and the hierarchy from time to time.

    Like you, I have friends and family who are good-living Christians and I generally like the laity.

    As for your last sentence, Mihangel… God should be given the chance to be a Woman for the next two thousand years. Haha! Seriously.

  52. Christianity and homosexuality mutually exclusive??? Is that what this whole thing was about?

    Well, you sure do have a strange spin on things! :7)

  53. er…that was for RobN…er :7)

  54. Stewart Cowan 27 Jul 2009, 12:51am

    John M.J. – what do you make of Paul’s statement – 2 Tim 3:16-17?

    All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

    Christ taught from the scriptures. Of course they matter – that’s not making them an icon to worship.

    Is this what you say to try and escape the bits of scripture you don’t like?

  55. Stewart Cowan 27 Jul 2009, 12:58am

    Brian – “I cannot understand The Cowans of this world who’s ambition is to ram their kind of very narrow Religious beliefs down our throats. I now feel sorry for the poor guy and sincerly hope he sees the ‘Light’ before it’s too late..he’s out-numbered on this thread!”

    “Narrow” you said –

    “strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.” Matthew 7:14.

    This clearly indicates that a liberal attitude will take you off the narrow path and into spiritual danger.

    I expected I would be outnumbered on this thread!

    I would expect fellow believers to make a stand with me for righteousness.

  56. Simon Murphy 27 Jul 2009, 1:20am

    RobN: No 17: You say: “Simon Murphy: “Why are people upset? It’s only a book.” Then we can all call you a screaming faggot. I mean, it’s only a name.”

    There’s a difference between insulting a person and insulting a book. A book is just a book.

    If I think the book of Allah or God is a load of mouldy old cock then I’m merely insulting a badly written book.

  57. Simon Murphy 27 Jul 2009, 1:23am

    Christians and muslims and jews need to stop being so precious about their books. If their religious leaders are going to use those books (which in my view are just as fictional but much more poorly written than Jackie Collins) to promote hatred then they shouldn’t get offended if people think the books are crazed, evil nonsense.

  58. I heard something the other day that made me stop and think; yea, imagine, me thinking. Ouch.

    Regardless of what we think of the Koran, for example, the fact is that countless millions of people have based their entire lives following the person of Mohammed through the writings in this book. That would be the Mohammed who married a 9 year old girl, I believe.

    The deadliest part of Islam is the division of the world in two: believers and infidels. Some fanatical sects take the Jihad very seriously. How seriously? Look it up, but here are two examples.

    Do you still remember 9/11?

    Do you still remember the story in this very paper describing how Gay Muslims in Iraq had their anuses glued tight then force-fed a liquid that gave them diarrhea so that they died a horrendous death while the police looked with glee?

    There is nothing fictitious about these actions. I don’t mean to put the eebie-jeebies into ya, but the mounting threat of Sharia Law is anything but funny.

    And on the off-chance that Christian fundamentalists, like our mentally deranged Stewart Cowan here, think their homophobia is going to be re-inforced when Islam insiduously spreads its hatred in the West, the fact is Muslims fanatics will target them before us because they are, after all, greater infidels in the order of things, as they say. More precisely, they are not monotheistic, so they are an abomination. Off with their heads! Get the picture?

    Oh, I don’t mean that. I’m just foolin’ around that’s all. Don’t you believe a word of it. Pass the bacon, please.

    On the upside, I have good reason to believe that once Muslims taste the democratic rights in the West and compare our lifestyle to their miserable existence under sharia law, we will be seeing more and more cradle-muslims youngsters developing doubts about this guy Mohammed and the financial…I mean the religious institution that rests on…what, more fiction?

    Thinking gives me such a headache. The next time, you think, I’ll listen, OK.

    Time for my green tea.

  59. Mr. Cowan/ Christians, well, thinking Christians, and the power of thought is God-given, don’t believe that the Bible is the literal transcribed Word of God as if had been dictated to some human mortal as some sort of shorthand taking secretary to the Divine mind. They know that it is an inspired word filtered through the fallible minds of men.

    The Apostles were men, St. Paul was a man. Their minds were tainted and corrupted and governed by the prejudices and understandings of the times they lived in and they filtered the Divine as it was revealed to them through their corrupted and tainted minds. We have different corruptions and different understandings and we will filter the living and ongoing message of the Holy Spirit through our minds and we will, as Christ intended, interpret His message of love and of tolerance in ever more broader ways as our understanding of all the various practices of humanity grows and as we mature, as He commanded, into tolerant servants of the Divine will.

    The Bible is not, nor can it ever be, a rule book. It’s a history of where we have come from and over half of it has been fulfilled by Christ’s Passion and we have to move on, as He commanded, and conquer our base inclinations and to look for rules of life in the modern half, the New Testament half, for Christ told us to! At best the Bible is a guide but at worst it’s a prison – a catalogue of our past mistakes and a warning that we have to do better – that we have to move on and express the love of God and the forgiveness to be found in Christ in positive ways.

    The truth of Christianity cannot be found in the Bible nor can it be found in any form of strict Biblical conformity. The truth of the Church resides in the movement of the Holy Spirit within the body of believing Christians. The Holy Spirit moves us towards love, towards tolerance, towards equality for all men and women, for that is the Christ’s message. The Bible does not, nor should it, define the Church. The Church defines the Bible for it is the Church, inspired by God through His Spirit and the Christ, which defines the Bible. Many of the words in that book were selected by the Church, moving with the Spirit we all hope. Those words were selected in a different day and age – an age when those words ported different meanings and feelings. The Spirit still moves us and we, today, imbue the Words with new meanings, with greater love and with a vastly more increased tolerance than St. Paul, the most intolerant of men, or the Holy Apostles, could ever have imagined in their human frailty.

    Why do we do this? Because the Spirit still moves us and because the Christ still walks amongst us and improves our minds and our understandings. He, and the Holy Spirit, have moved countless millions of us into a new understanding of what it means to be an LGBT person – and with that new understanding those of us who have learnt anew the message of love cannot withhold the benisons of belief from any man, or woman, simply on the basis of gender or sexual orientation.

    We have gained a new understanding of sacramental committment to ones partner – a deeper understanding driven by Him and the Spirit. I hope that we have also acquired a better understanding of God’s love.

    The truth of the Church does not lie in the Bible – it lies in the Church, and in the Spirit Who moves it, and in the Love of Christ for all men and women which drives, should drive, us Christians!
    If all you’ve got from Christianity is a Biblically derived set of rules based on a belief derived from a ancient, badly translated with many forged passages, book which you have elevated to iconic levels then you don’t have Faith – you merely worship a book! Arguing that the book claims to be correct and it must, therefore, be correct because it claims to be, is, quite simply, a circular, superstitious and heretical nonsense which exhibits a complete disregard for all the work done by generations of scholars in trying to ascertain just what the original texts in their original languages actually said before they were extensively rewritten by people like St.(!?) Jerome to suit his own febrile maunderings about justifying his guilt and self-hatred.

  60. Mr. Cowan,

    You said: “strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.” Matthew 7:14.

    That is of course consistent with Christ’s other teachings such as: “It is as difficult for a rich man to enter into the Kingdom of Heaven as it is for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle but in God all things are possible”. These teachings are not based on dogmatic claims of salvation, they are based on the state of a person’s heart and spirituality. Christ was drawing comparisons between the broad way and the narrow way: the broad way is the way of self (the self which you exhibit all too clearly), the desire to dogmatically control and rule others and to use your religion to possess power and riches and to dominate those whom you see as lesser than you in some sexual sense, the living of an easy, comfortable and carefree life which avoids true responsibility, burdens and spiritually profitable experiences; and the narrow way – the Christ Way, the Way He laid down in Person as He walked the Earth and gently displayed Divine Love, Forgivness and Compassion for all and for all to see.

    The narrow way, as spoken of by Christ, has nothing at all to do with the acceptance of a contrived metaphysical concept i.e. being made perfect for the upper echelons of Heaven in an instant by accepting some literal interpretation of some highly suspect text; or in other words, the narrow way as spoken of by Christ is not dependent upon some dogmatic belief in some verse, or collection of verses, in our Bible (and bear in mind that there are many different versions of the Bible many of which are far older than the Western one and differ from it quite significantly) but is dependent, rather, on some operative love of the Spirit, as Christ preached and as all the mainstrem Churches still preach today.

    Once again, as you always do, you are guilty of taking an ancient form of words and twisting them away from their true meaning in order to make them suit your desires and preconceived beliefs and you have slipped easily, and with malice in your heart, away from Christ and the Spirit and into the blackest of heresies.

    No mainstream Christian has ever believed – in all the history of our Faith – that Matthew 7:14 is about salvation. Only fundamentalist Biblical literalists like you believe that for Matthew, or whoever wrote that Book many decades after the events which it purports to retail as a first-hand account (which it is not, as any scholar can tell you if you care to listen), was simply trying to persuade he faithful to follow Christ in forgiveness – as the opening verses of Chapter 7 clearly indicate:

    (1)Judge not, that ye be not judged. (2) For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. (3) And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother’s eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? (4) Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye? (5) Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother’s eye.

    So, clearly, you select the verses which you believe can support your own prejudices with scant regard of their historical accuracy and with scant, or no, regard to their correct interpretation, translation and recension. You argue in circles by using the Book to prove the truth of the Book – an academically illiterate method of arguing when much more robust methods are available to you if you did but know it. Finally, you attempt some spurious superiority over LGBT people by using the Bible to tell them that they are of some lesser, presumably evil, creation and thereby revealing for all of us to see that you do not believe that the Spirit still moves us (as Christ promised) and informs mankind in its quest for knowledge and improved understandings as the ages pass. You, Sir, are naught but a pharisee.

  61. Brian Burton 27 Jul 2009, 7:28am

    I do tend to chukle at Simon Murphy’s anti-Christian rantings. From the Emerald Isle too, the land where Saint Patrck is their Icon. Indeed the Irerish Americans parade through New Yoyk City every year because of their dear Saint Patrick. I cannot imagine Ireland suddenly standing up in any public forum and de-nouncing Saint Patrick as a ‘Man Of Fiction’ as Simon Murphy would have it. Simon Murphy is utterly deluded with his ‘Oblivionist’ stance. God Bless Simon Murphy (and I mean that sincerley folks!)

  62. Brian Burton 27 Jul 2009, 9:23am

    Mr Cowan,
    Naught but a Pharisee, put by the elequent John M.J.
    Nikademus was told by Jesus he must be ‘Born Again’….A secret visit to Jesus by Nikodemus…A one to one with the ‘Prince Of Peace’ I am hoping for a ‘One to one’ with my Lord in time…and there is so little time to prepear for such a momentous event as meeting the one I belive in implicitly. As for you Mr. Cowan, I hope you do not stand there in your Church and say Oh Lord, I’m so glad I’m not like these Homosexuals and sinners. Because if you did you would be condeming yourself. Remember, exalt yourself on earth and you will not be exalted in Heaven.

  63. John M.J.:

    Your comments are both timely and most informative. It’s kind of you to take the time to highlight the heresies inherent in Mr. Cowan’s line of thought.

    Indeed parisees were known to control others with a perplexing labyrinth of rules and subtexts which really did confront the Spirit of love rather than co-operate with it.

    Everything you say sheds light, and I am especially grateful for the following passage:

    “…the Spirit still moves us and because the Christ still walks amongst us and improves our minds and our understandings. He, and the Holy Spirit, have moved countless millions of us into a new understanding of what it means to be an LGBT person – and with that new understanding those of us who have learnt anew the message of love cannot withhold the benisons of belief from any man, or woman, simply on the basis of gender or sexual orientation.”

    In fact and if you have no objection, I’ll copy and paste your comments 59 and 60 to one of my documents for further reference.

    Steward Cowan:

    Thank you for visiting PinkNews. Can we expect you to make a stand for righteousness with John M.J.?

  64. Many many years ago I worked in a Library and people defaced books; we prosecuted them as it was criminal damage! I do not believe ANY book should be defiled, burnt or otherwise destroyed; they all have their place in human culture whether we like what they say or not! Destroying books is the joy of barbarians!

  65. Here, here Mike. And in this case the Bible had been presented by the Metropolitan Church. Christianity doesn’t get more gay-friendly than that. An art project torpedoed by vandalism, in Glasgow of all places.

  66. “an art project torpedoed by vandalism” lol. Does not look like vandalism to me or criminal damage but reasonable comments to make which have been invited. It is telling that “offensive” messages will be removed. I think it was a good idea. An opportunity to tell Christians just how much hurt and pain they do to others justified by their superstitious beliefs and interpretations of their bible. If you ask for peoples opinions be prepared to hear things you might not agree with or like.

  67. “If you ask for peoples opinions be prepared to hear things you might not agree with or like.” Agreed David. But I wonder how many copies of the Koran and Mein Kampf are in libraries in Tel aviv or jerusalem?

  68. Brian Burton 27 Jul 2009, 2:20pm

    David,
    You have the same name as a King and a Saint. The welch patron Saint David and King David, Anointed by God in the Book of Samuel. I have never heard of a Saint Brian…Bruno is the Itallian versian I think. So I was not called Brian after any Saint. I don’t feel saintly and don’t paticularly want Saint-hood. Some struggle and strive to lead the kind of life they feel is right for them and many succeed. As for the rest of us, some were born great, some achive greatness and some have greatness thrust upon them. Many do not have choices in some things. I chose Christianity (My deocratic choice) many moons ago. I know in my heart of hearts I have benefitted from my choice and have no regrets.

  69. Andy & Steve argue: “As such it deserves no more respect than Enid Blyton…”

    Personally, I would take great offence if anyone wrote swearwords all over my collection of Enid Blyton books.

  70. if you ask for comment, you should be prepared for what you get. some parts of the church have done far worse to people that don’t fit their ideal. Murder, abuse, unlawful detainment to turn them straight, verbal abuse, forcing families to disown loved ones, rape, sexual abuse…………

  71. Brian Burton 27 Jul 2009, 5:12pm

    Nikolas,
    I promise not to scribble on your Enid Blyton books if you promise not to scribble on my Noddy In Toytown books.

  72. OK Brian, but the Noddy books were written by Enid Blyton, too.

  73. Brian Burton 27 Jul 2009, 11:11pm

    Nikolas,
    I thought you ment your ‘Secret Seven’ Books, I read those many moons ago. One line in the Secret Seven always stuck with me. It was: “Truth is the foundation on which all human relationships are built.” It was that line and subsequent ones that got me interested in Literature, the written word etcetera. So, defacing any Literature is totally abhorrent to me. Not bad for a working class peasent like me either!…Cheers Nikolas, don’t be a stanger.

  74. Hello David (66):

    I myself so often comment here without reference to the issue as it is presented on the front page. So that I can’t expect others to do any better. In fact, we all do it.

    Without necessarily disagreeing with anything you’ve said, I think it might help us to put this thing in perspective if we took a minute or two to re-read the opening paragraphs of the article. Shall we?:

    “An art gallery in Scotland has been attacked by the church after an exhibition inviting people to write messages on a Bible was met with “abuse” and “obscenity”, including one person writing “f*** the bible”.

    The exhibition was created by artists Anthony Schrag and David Malone, in association with organisations representing gay Christians and Muslims.

    Held at the Gallery of Modern Art in Glasgow, the idea was originally proposed by the Metropolitan Community Church as a way to “reclaim the Bible as a sacred text.”

    My point is: Did the art project succeed in “reclaiming the Bible as a sacred text”? How would you answer that question?

    I believe, based on the article, that the project failed. Why did it fail? Because the art project was torpedoed by vandalism.

    Occasions to vent our velvet rage against passages of Scriptures which have made and continue to make our lives miserable come up regularly on PinkNews, and I will be there with you when the time comes to take a whack at the scriptural teachings that condemn homosexuality.

    In fact, the invitation on the part Of the MCC was not to ‘comment’ on the Bible. The invitation read as follows:

    “If you feel you have been excluded from the Bible, please write your way back into it.”

    Having myself taken the odd course in Bible Studies, I admit willingly that I and my classmates filled the margins of the pages we were studying with notes and cross references. Biblical scholars easily go through a Bible a year just by filling every available space with letters, numbers and notes that will help them further their research. I don’t disagree with marking helpful notes in the Bible, and I believe it was with this intention in mind that the MCC, which does study the Bible in a scholarly fashion, invited public particiaption. From my point of view, the results of the art project simply proved that there are persons out there stupid enough, there’s no other word, to fail to grasp such a simple, kindergarten invitation.

    So, the art project failed because it was torpedoed by vandalism.

  75. Brian Burton 28 Jul 2009, 7:26am

    Bentham,
    Mentaly bankrupt springs to mind also, from my point of view when a Bible or any work of Literature or sculpture even is vandalized. There are bronze statues of Britains WW2 Military Leaders in London, like Field Marshal Montgomery (General Foche,France) Air Marshal Dowding Fighter Command. Bomber Harris, Bomber Command. Bomber Harris’s statue was covered once in red paint to stupidly convey to us that Harris was responceable for spilling blood during WW2 Bombing raids on Germany etcetera. Harris, along with the other War Leaders were responceable for preventing Hitler invading Britain in 1940. Revered War-Leaders or a revered Book as the Bible are targets for the un-educated. So, in truth, I was not a bit surprised when the Glasgow project went pear-shaped.

    Oscar said: Looking at angels or indeed people singing, is much nicer than listening to them, for this reason; The great artists always give to their angels lutes without strings, pipes without vent-holes, and reeds through which no wind can wander or make whistlings.

  76. You’re up early Brian. Yea, around here cemeteries are targetted; stones broken and tipped over, spray paint on monuments and mausoleums…many people are offended and hurt to see this kind of thing happen.

    I’ve heard it said that part of the reason why the younger generations can be so aggressive and disrespectful is that they listen to aggressive music. I’ve heard some of the music…they are young… I was young…?
    now I like to relax with Ella Fitzgerald singing Irving Berlin melodies, go figure. But why is aggressive music being composed?

    My own feeling about the outbreak of vandalism is rather simplistic. For example, I try imagining how I would react if I were born into a world like this, I mean a planet struggling to survive against its inhabitants.

    Kids aren’t stupid; they pick up on things like that and they know that the older generations are the ones who created this mess. Know what I mean? What is so sad is that they seldom respond to our efforts to reach out to them. They are not all the same, of course.

    Still, once the damage is done, it can stick to a criminal record for a long, long time and stiffle the guy’s chances of advancing and developing his talents.

    Equal opportunity is there, and they are free to chose. If they would use their gift of thought, they could easily find a more constructive way to vent their rage, something that we all learn sooner or later, eh pal.

  77. Mihangel apYrs 28 Jul 2009, 10:23am

    distruction of books (somethng that does send a shiver down my spine) or statues, headstones, etc is to be deplored. However it is better that things are broken than people: we just must hope that the one doesn’t lead to the other, but that we can establish respect and tolerance as socially necessary traits.

    And what were you doing up at 3:44 Bentham – I hope you hadn’t been out clubbing on a school night ;) !

  78. Simon Murphy 28 Jul 2009, 10:27am

    Brian Burton: “God Bless Simon Murphy (and I mean that sincerley folks!)”

    Don’t associate my name with that of some dumb ‘god’ I don’t believe in. ‘Satan’ sounds like a lot more fun.

    Seriously though – why can’t these religious nuts accept that their chosen belief systems apply only to themselves.

    I think that if someone is allowed to believe that some crap book is the word of ‘god’ then equally I am allowed to disbelieve it. But I should not be required to show a religious belief any more resepct that it shows me.

    And most religions are unspeakably evil on the matter of homosexuality.

  79. Mihangel ap Yrs:

    Always a pleasure to hear from you.

    Yea well, since I retired last March… get this: I eat when I’m hungry and I go to bed when I’m sleepy. I’ve been working for the last 45 years for this kind of lifestyle and the house is paid for. Yahoo!

    No more routine for awhile; the rules nearly broke me though, but like you guys, I’m a survivor. Yea!

  80. Brian Burton 28 Jul 2009, 3:53pm

    Simon Murphy,
    When you stop telling us Christians what to do (Your always at it!) then we will stop telling an atheist like you what to do. As a person who says satan sounds more fun, then I’m glad you belive in satan..at least it’s a belife! Your atheist rantings hold you up for mockery rather than anyone beliving your atheist creed. Your whole personia and being eminates evil, far more than any Christian could. You will not tell me what I can and cannot say to a condemed man as I know you are. So, Simon Murphy…God Bless You!

  81. Brian shouts: “Your whole personia and being eminates evil”

    Don’t be silly. Simon usually talks sense and is almost certainly a nice man. He’s quite right that Christianity (along with Judaism and Islam) is fundamentlly anti-homo. That’s hardly surprising. Religions tend to reflect the conservative and prejudiced morality of their time, so it’s not unexpected that most of the old religions don’t have any place for homosexuality.

    But it’s important to remember that religions are creations of the human imagination. Think to the future, Brian. We will have umpteen spiritual movements that are not just “gay friendly”, but queer-embracing. All it requires is the free creative spirit, poetry, music and inherent good nature :)

  82. Brian Burton 30 Jul 2009, 5:43pm

    Nikolas,
    Sorry, I can’t help this line: Oh Nikolas, Don’t be so rediculas. I Know Simon talks sence, I’ve been at logger-heads with him long enough to know what I’m dealing with. You Nikolas Dear, Will have to learn to read between the lines!

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