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Lesbian turned away from men-only gay bar in Torquay

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  1. I always thought it was illegal to discriminate now in the provision of goods and services. If these women chose to sue the owners would not have a leg to stand on.

  2. Actually you can have ‘men only bars’ and ‘women only bars’ (within limits), and I suspect the hotel was within their legal rights to refuse the couple.

    I don’t really see the point in having sex-sepcific bars (enless there’s somthing neferious going on, and if the ‘natrualist’ coment is anything to go by, it’s a posibility), but I don’t see the harm either. It’s a shame for her that she didn’t get to go to the bar she wanted, but nothing about it screams ‘disgusting’ to me.

    I wonder if she’d say the same thing about ‘women’s spaces’ at pride events?

  3. Simon Murphy 22 Jul 2009, 11:49am

    I can understand why they are annoyed but if they make a big deal about this then they are in essence also fighting against women only events. It’s not ideal for sure but I’m curious to know why they wanted to go to a gay men’s sex bar?

  4. Isn’t there a ‘reserve the right of admission’ law in England for shops and hotels? I think the owners are right in that they are trying to ‘protect’ their lesbian clients from gay activities should be so. I think this whole thing is silly really. What do they want to go into a gay sex bar for anyway as Simon says. Are they trying to emancipate women again? I don’t think a big thing needs to be made about this. They are allowed to go upstairs so what else do they want? I certainly wouldn’t want to go into a lesbian only bar, thank you very much. It has nothing to do with segregation or discrimination at all, it is just different interests.

  5. Pete & Michael 22 Jul 2009, 12:09pm

    If the bar was a Member’s Club, this would not be against the law. If this alleged report is correct this was a public bar and whoever whether straight or gay cannot be refused entrance solely because of gender. We believe the alleged discrimination if taken to court can result in the bar facing damages claims.

  6. Simon Murphy 22 Jul 2009, 12:21pm

    Oh it’s absolutely certain that if this came to court then the bar would be fined as technically the lesbian couple are correct. A bar cannot refuse to serve someone based on their gender. But it would also be a hollow, petty victory that has no benefit to anyone or anything except the lesbian couple’s sense of entitlement. They wanted a drink in a gay men’s sex bar. Are they voyeurs? This complaint is the equivalent of me kicking up a stink because I am not allowed to join the WI. Technically it’s unfaor but it’s me that would end up looking like the idiot.

  7. If I might make a point?

    When I first ‘came out’ to use that appalling phrase…and on only my second visit to a gay venue, I returned to my seat, all
    6’7″ of me…(but inside a right MARGOT FONTEYN)…to find my jacket and the rest of my clobber all moved from my seat and put on the dog-shelf; it was a busy, bizzy nite and, to be fair, there wasn’t a spare seat anywheres.

    I looked around for the culprit and saw these two ladies giggling away but made light of it, solely because of my size. A bloke would have backed off, especially if I had dropped my voice a couple of octaves and put on a menathing, grimathing, thnarrling countenanth…hahaha..!

    But not Dolly and Ida….!
    Hahaha..!

    Oh no!

    In response to my.. “Who put me gear on the floor, thank-you very much!” (here, a slightly petulant dithplay on my part of upthettedneth…and a very loud TUT.!)… this wee 5’1″ Scottish Ida waded in with her black Doc Maartens and a…”I did; so what yer gunna do ’bout it…”

    Obviously, she having been given my share of tostitesterostertrot and I, her share of Oeastereggs.
    I thmiled thweetly…and juth’t lifted her up bodily, with one hand, oiked her ‘ over-my-shoulder-goes-one-care’ and protheeded to take her outside.. much to the loud and raucous cheers of the assembled multichewed.
    “If tha’ wants to be a bloke, lassie, we’ll go outside and an’ I’ll show thi’ how it’s done; we’ll sekkle it a bloke’s way…!”

    Well the place was in uproar…!

    We got just as far as the club entrance and I lowered her to the carpet.
    She said that 10 more seconds, and she’d have slapped a rape charge on me…
    Hahaha..!
    I said that once I had opened me gob in court, there’s not a judge or jury in the land would have been able to keep a straight face; and anyway, she’d have had to show me what to do; ‘what’ exactly went ‘where’ and would I know when we had struck gold…
    Hahahah.
    We laffed about it, her and me for years after…so all’s well that ends well.

    BUT THE POINT I WOULD LIKE TO RAISE….is; I wonder if this wee debacle in Torquay (?) has anything to do with the fact that sexual attraction/activity was only ever criminalised between males and there may be just a lingering ember that says that we (lads) would rather be just with other lads.
    Women have always been freer than the lads, thanks to Q.V.; always been able to show affection, hold hands in public as in ” They’re women..it’s what women ‘do’..”
    Not so a lad. It still lingers that a man is a man; doesn’t cry; doesn’t show affection..and certainly doesn’t…ahem..(!)

    I wonder if it has summat to wi’ all that.?

    Just a point; just curious.
    And I hope I have succeded only in making you smile.

    No offence.

    Ida certainly took none.

    We ended up, her showing me what was wrong with my car and me showing her the finer points of crochet and tatting..
    6’7″ me, me cat and me tattin’ spools…a sight to be’old.

    K

  8. This has always happened – even down Manchesters Canal Street. The problem is they are all members only clubs and so pick and choose whoever. Which is fair enough until you realise that every single one is a members only and you can end up not being allowed in anywhere!

  9. As I said, I was only newly ‘out’ and although my name is Keith, I was ever after known as RAY….Ray Pissed…(the Ray Pissed).

    Eyee oop..! here’s Ray…!

    Guffaws all round.

  10. “They wanted a drink in a gay men’s sex bar. Are they voyeurs?” (by Simon Murphy)

    Are you not asking the wrong question Simon as a sex bars of any kind or whatever you call it is illegal in this country. Maybe gay men should realise these activities are not socially expectable. These places should become history along with the saunas and cottaging.

    What’s the point of winning equality if gay men want to keep living and loving in the ghettos of the past these places are.

  11. It is reasonable to have single gender places when there is a sexual or nudity element to it. Because some people feel self conscious or intimidated or uncomfortable being naked in front of the opposite sex. I think it is reasonable to have men only or women only sex on premises bars a where men and women can feel more comfortable being sexual and the atmosphere being more sexualised. I think this seems to have been explained to the women adequately and that they were extremely rude to demand entry into a men only cruise bar. As rude as if I insisted on entry into a women only bar or sauna or at my local pool when they have women only swim or into the women’s changing rooms.

  12. On Manchester’s Canal Street for clubs such as Vanilla (women) and Cruz 101 (men), the general rule seems to be, if the club is already full of men/women and a group turns up with a couple of the opposite gender, they are generally allowed in. I have been turned away from vanilla because there were quite a few men in the group and asked to come back when the club had filled up a little more. I really have no problem with this. The way I see it, I wouldn’t want to go to a gay bar and see it full of straight people. What would be the point of having a gay bar if there were more straight people than gay? (Baa Bar Poptastic Friday nights in Canal Street if anyone has noticed haha) Therefore, if I go to a club that is specifically for women, I’d want it to be that.

  13. Mihangel apYrs 22 Jul 2009, 12:50pm

    “Maybe gay men should realise these activities are not socially expectable.”

    ahem

    @Abi1975
    who are you to say what is or is not socially acceptable?

    That judgemental stance equally opens the way for other judgments to be made by others as to what is socially acceptable.

    It is the case that gay men and lesbians often want different things socially; should be normalise gay men’s social activities to met the expectations of wider society? What about lesbian behaviour matching heteronormality?

  14. Simon Murphy 22 Jul 2009, 12:56pm

    Abi1975 – that’s not the point though. Regardless of whether you approve or disapprove of sex bars the fact that this couple is kicking up a stink about being refused admission to a bar which they knew catered for gay male sex is evidence enough for me that they are being petty and ridiculous.

    If you defend this couple would you equally defend me if I started kicking up a stink about the admissions policy of the WI?

    This fight they are picking is of no benefit to anyone except perhaps their own sense of entitlement.

    Gay bars often have a policy of not allowing large groups of heterosexual football fans in. Should that also be challenged do you think?

  15. To Abi1975 Sex bars are not illegal in this country as you put it and social acceptability is relative. What is unacceptable to you is downright prudish and illiberal to me. Any sex between same gender partners used to be generally “socially unacceptable” and illicit, it didn’t stop me or many other gay men doing it. Sex on premises bars are less popular as it gets easier to meet each other for sex in other ways. However they will still be fun and important to some people at different times of their life. We can still appreciate winning equality and fighting for equality and at the same time celebrate our diversity and commonality. We can have and enjoy the unique experience where we can go somewhere where we can pretty much guarantee all the other men we meet are interested in sex and sex with men unlike the rest of the world. Likeminded people get support and affirmation and can share and enjoy experiences and advice by coming together in a myriad of areas from fishkeeping to fisting. That is universal and timeless.

  16. Simon Murphy 22 Jul 2009, 12:59pm

    If I wanted to go out for a drink one evening with a male friend of mine and the local gay bar was having a women’s night I would probably go to the straight bar next door instead. I COULD start complaining about discrimination but I don’t see the point or benefit of that for anyone.

  17. Frankly one way or the other doesn’t bother me at all. Legal? Illegal? Just tell us which one it is and we’ll live with it. There’s something to lose either way. If the women really want to go to a gay men’s bar then they have to accept some bloke might really want to change in a women’s locker room or attend women’s only nights at the gym. I went for lunch yesterday at a lovely women’s centre where in the evenings no men are allowed. I wasn’t really bothered by the idea and certainly didn’t find it disgusting. It was a lovely place. 

  18. Perhaps the owner didn’t want a couple in the bar, who were telling him who he should let in.

    As said before, it was a Cruise bar and the manager did not refuse them entry into his premises, just this bar.

    Get over it.

  19. Good, if it’s a men only bar, then only men should be allowed in. And vice versa, I would never attempt to go into a Ladies only bar as it’s for ladies!
    What’s the big deal here? Get overyourself..

  20. There is enormous hypocrisy from gay women over territorial “spaces” on the scene – on one hand they seem to want to retain totally man-free zones while at the same time demanding admission to all other gay clubs. We can’t have it both ways. If women insist on keeping up women only territories then they have to accept that guys can do the same.

  21. Territorial claims over spaces are outdated, but usually they are imposed by the wimmins community, not the other way around. Its amazing how there is barely a squeak about “women only” places and yet women are quick to complain about being shut out of places geared for men.

  22. Ive been refused entry to a few ‘lesbian’ bars, one in pertic in manchester! im not offended by it….i see this as a lesbian with a chip on her shoulder! Get over it luv!

  23. So, whats the big deal. At Pride there are Women’s Only Tents! Me thinks she does protest too much!! Typical angry Lesbian.

  24. Ummmm, this may seem a bit obvious but…why would a lesbian want to be in a male-only bar anyway? Especially given some of the attitudes displayed above (viz ‘Typically angry Lesbian – what’s one of those, then, Paul?). Let’s just stick to our own kind and be happy. Oh, yes: divide and rule, that’s the way forward…

  25. Dear Abi
    Picking your nose is socially unacceptable. Playing music too loud is socially unacceptable. Elsewhere, women showing their faces in public is socially unacceptable. In Iran, being gay is socially unacceptable. In Germany being Jewish was socially unacceptable. And we all know what should happen to people whose behaviour is unacceptable.
    Hope your careers teacher got you fixed up as a traffic warden!

  26. Joe Johnston 22 Jul 2009, 4:09pm

    Well, if Lilith doesn’t know what a ‘typical angry lesbian’ is I’ll tell her – it’s the VERY COMMON type of lesbian who hates men gay or straight. I don’t want girls in men-only bars and I don’t want to be in a girls only one – neither do any normal people -straight, gay, bisexual or whatever. These two are just troublemakers.

  27. Jen Marcus 22 Jul 2009, 4:15pm

    I am puzzled, why are, we, all members of the same oppressed LGBT community, discriminating against each other? Whether its we, lesbians, against, gay men, or vice versa, as in this case, it simply does not make any sense? Then how can we, as a community, have the audacity to complain against the “straights and homophobic bigots” who discriminate against us? We are acting absolutely crazy. I think this this makes us out to be inconsistent irrational hypocrites!

  28. I think there was (or maybe still is) a bar in Euston – The Glass Bar – which has an advertised women only door policy. I don’t think there was ever any serious problem from anyone about that. If something is advertised as a men-only space then there shouldn’t be an argument about that either. The problem comes when a policy is not advertised, just applied ‘on the quiet’, which makes it seemingly discriminatory – as if it is you personally that is being turned away.

  29. Good luck to the couple. Hopefully they’ll get all gender bars removed including the women only ones.

    Then me and the lads will have a better pub crawl next time. Third bar… the lesbian bar. Lets go watch some making out and then we’ll go to to the club to pick up some women ourselves.

  30. Simon Murphy 22 Jul 2009, 4:36pm

    I have never met this couple so I have no idea what their agenda was (although seeing as they’d been drinking upstairs maybe they were a little bit drunk and therefore weren’t acting in the most reasonable manner).

    But they’d be wise to pick their arguements more carefully. They benefit nobody by making a big deal out of not being admitted to a gay male sex bar. How do they expect to better their own lives or the lives of other lesbians by demanding entrance to such a bar? Because by doing so they are in essence arguing against women only events and against gay bars full stop (many gay bars refuse to admit big groups of straight people which is effectively discrimination also)

    1. Tina Holmboe 25 Aug 2011, 1:44pm

      Indeed true. One really should pick arguments carefully – after all it IS terribly silly to actually demand that group X can’t have a place all of their own. Y’know. Straight people will be relieved to hear they can now have a “No Gays Please” bar ’cause we, the LGBT community, think anything else’d be silly.

      After all, why’d gay people want to go to a straight bar? Heavens, the sillyness of it all.

  31. Simon Murphy 22 Jul 2009, 4:39pm

    And if I go for an evening of dancing and a few bevvies I do not want to see massive hordes of straight people monopolising straight bars because we have better music and atmospehere at our bars. Look what happened to Canal Street in Manchester after Queer as Folk 1st aired. Gay people started experiencing homophobia in ‘gay bars’ such was the number of straight punters who were drawn there as a result of the show.

  32. Something tells me that if I were to make a complaint about the prevalence of women’s tents at Pride, that I would not be given anywhere near this amount of media coverage. And yes, I have been refused entry to one before.

  33. Why would any woman want to go to a men’s cruise bar?

    Candy Bar in London only allows men in if accompanied by a woman. As a result I have never been as I have one lesbian friend and several straight women friends none of whom are interested in going. And I do not feel discriminated against because I understand they want a space of their own. There are hundreds of other places to get a drink.

    @Abi1975: it is totally OK for these bars to exist, they trade openly and with full local authority licensing. A very very important reason for allowing them is that it means health advisors can visit regularly and provide advice to the customers, ensure condoms etc are dispensed, improving safety and reducing HIV transmission. There is nothing antisocial about them at all, they don’t harm anyone, and no reason for you to be disgusted on behalf of other people.

  34. Why would any woman want to go to a men’s cruise bar?

    Candy Bar in London only allows men in if accompanied by a woman. As a result I have never been as I have one lesbian friend and several straight women friends none of whom are interested in going. And I do not feel discriminated against because I understand they want a space of their own. There are hundreds of other places to get a drink.

    @Abi1975: it is totally OK for these bars to exist, they trade openly and with full local authority licensing. A very very important reason for allowing them is that it means health advisors can visit regularly and provide advice to the customers, ensure condoms etc are dispensed, improving safety and reducing HIV transmission. There is nothing antisocial about them at all, they don’t harm anyone, so don’t be disgusted on other people’s behalves.

  35. Brian Burton 22 Jul 2009, 5:56pm

    Storm in TEA-CUP! I’m NOT a celebrity. Get me out of here!

  36. Having seen some of the Diesels walking into my local, they’ve got more testosterone than a lot of the men.

    You gotta be a brave bouncer to challenge one of them.

  37. I’ve read all the comments but I think, in general, if we’re going to have a society where discrimination is seen as undesirable, the rules have to apply to everyone.

    If we believe (as I do) that refusing a gay couple admission to a bar whose owners would like to think of it as a “straight bar” is homophobic…

    … that means gay bars should allow straight couples to enter
    … gay men’s bars should allow women, lesbian or otherwise
    … lesbians’ bars should allow, gay or otherwise.

    A gay pub is only a theme pub, after all – a place where like-minded people like to gather. It has no particular reason to be exclusive.

    But I think there are legitimate privacy counter-consideration in a place:
    … society tends not to allow women in men’s toilets, or vice versa
    … no-clothes saunas (gay or straight) or usually single-sex.

  38. Michael★ 22 Jul 2009, 6:45pm

    it’s just exactly her behavior that we separate the men from the boys … and wanna be’s.

  39. Tsuchan: There are many gay “establishments” with darkrooms, saunas and other, shall we say, niche clientèle. There are often complaints of men’s clubs, golf clubs and other places where women are not allowed, but I feel these places should be exempt, just like pubs banning children. I don’t want women in my bar any more than I want their screaming brats. That’s not sexist, just a personal preference, and it’s about time this crappy socialist government stopped trying to reduce everything into bland, homogenised pap.

  40. Ian M Laughlin 22 Jul 2009, 9:08pm

    Ha ha! A socialist government? Surely not…!

  41. Keith, (Comment no. 7)

    Your profile fits that of Monkeychops. Are you he? (I miss his scommentary).
    Any defence made for this club will be good for any hotel, particaularly B&Bs, should this Bar be allowed to get away with this discriminatory act. What is suauce for the goose, is sauce for the gander.

  42. Mihangel apYrs 22 Jul 2009, 9:35pm

    I quite agree Nili, so no more “women only” areas, “women only” nights, women get in free, etc, etc.

    Or is that different?

    sarcasm off,now – why would women, especially lesbians, want to frequent a bar that is specifically aimed at certain gay men?

  43. While I agree with the consensus above, namely that this appears to be a member of the lgbt community ‘kicking off’ unreasonably as they have felt slighted, what also concerns me is Pink News’ Jessica Geen’s attitude who headlined her article as ‘Lesbian turned away from men-only gay bar in Torquay’. That actually doesn’t tell the whole, let alone the truth of it. As best it’s a disingenuous headline, at worse it’s downright misleading. It was only after I’d read the entire article and then some of the comments that I realised the proprietors in question (and yes, I have stayed there and it’s one of the best gay men’s hotels in the UK) had been neither discriminatory nor unfair in refusing admission. Actually, I’m not even sure that the Cruise Bar in question isn’t a Private Bar anyway … isn’t it part of the hotel’s gay men’s sauna complex ? Either way, a more accurate (and less inflamatory) headline would have been, ‘Lesbian turned away from men-only cruise (ie sex) bar …’ I mean, that’s what really happened isn’t it? I’d have thought the lady in question should be thankful …

  44. #41
    NIKI
    No…sorry…I am not MONKEYCHOPS…
    K

  45. Eagle Ashcroft 23 Jul 2009, 2:39am

    I can see their point, but what if the bar was for women only and they let in a man? Some times gay men want to be amongst only gay men and gay women only want to be amongst gay women. However it has never bothered me to be a tavern or bar amongst Lesbians as some of my best friends have been Lesbians and they too are gay and discriminated against, but the point here is not they were being discriminated because they were gay, but because they were women wanting to go in an all male bar.

  46. Her name is Rebecca Hills, did everybody get that, Rebecca Hills.

    There, now she’s had her five minutes of fame. Curtain, please.

  47. Gynophopbia rules in the UK?
    The last time I read such ignorant, homophobic pap it was on an AmeriKKKan Christian Fun-demented-list website…

    FYI, Everyone, in UK Law, in order to qualify for exemption from Discrimination Law, an establishment must:

    a) be registered as a Private Club, satisfying all the Rules, including those applicable to Licensed Premises:

    Club Premises Certificates Private members clubs must be licensed with a ‘Club Premises Certificate’ issued by the Council where any licensable activities are to take place, including the supply of alcohol to members and guests.

    A club must be used for qualifying activities which must be established and conducted in good faith.

    The application procedure for a Club Premises Certificate is similar to that for a Premises Licence, with the exception that no Personal Licence Holder or DPS is required for a members’ club. A copy of the club rules must also be submitted to the Licensing Authority.

    The Licensing Authority must be kept informed of any change of name, registered address or alteration of the club rules.

    What are qualifying club activities?
    The conditions that must be met to establish that premises are used for qualifying club activities are as follows:
    1. Persons must not be admitted to membership or be admitted as candidates to membership without an interval of 2 days between nomination/application and admission;
    2. Where there is no nomination or application procedure the rules must require a 2-day interval between becoming a member and being admitted;
    3. The club must be established and conducted in good faith as a club;
    4. The club must have at least 25 members;
    5. Alcohol must not be supplied to members on the premises otherwise than by or on behalf of the club.”

    b) the Club must be registered and keep books, a Membership list
    c) receive and display its Certificate before it begins operation, and; d) publicly advertise its status to the public with a clearly displayed sign that it is a “Private Club, Members Only”.
    OK?

    Addendum: One of the reasons for women-only spaces, is the predatory infiltration by straight men liable to offend, sexually harass/assault and threaten lesbian women, usually with the tired, smelly offer of a ‘meat sandwich’…

    Following a very unfortunate episode in The Drum, Islaington, back in the 1980s, when several women were assaulted and injured, it became evident that Lesbians are at particular risk, often being physically smaller than their assailants.

    OK?

    These comments amount to a lamentable display of ignorance mysantropic feeling amongst the gay community and they do not do anyone credit

    Shoegril… tut, tut! how very, very ignorant you must be, and how desperate for a little approval!”

  48. Mihangel apYrs 23 Jul 2009, 11:27am

    @GeaVox
    but gay men aren’t likely to do those things so why exclude ALL men? Also please inform me whether these “women only” areas meet the criteria you’ve listed.

    The bottom line is that these women wanted to go into somewhere where men would feel safe and private. Once they were told the reason they still insisted on making a big deal out of it rather than politely accepting that men need men-only areas in the same way as women. It’s rather like me being advised not to go into a biker bar in my sequins and then whinging about it.

  49. Simon Murphy 23 Jul 2009, 1:09pm

    Gea Vox – yes we all know that.

    But for heaven’s sake this couple needs to grow a sense of perspective. They are causing a stink to achieve what? Well nothing. Except to prove a point. They are not improving women’s rights. They are not improving lesbian rights. They are just being humourless, point-scorers whose actions benefit no-one except perhaps their own sense of entitlement.

    No-one here seems to think that women-only nights in bars and clubs are a bad thing. But this couple obviously do.

  50. I understand that people might have issues with what these women in particular did, but can people hold off criticising and generalising about all lesbians/all women pls? Cheers.

    I’m a lesbian and most of my friends are gay men. This has been true my entire life, don’t know why, I didn’t plan it. I’m sick of people telling me (this includes gay men and lesbians by the way)that I’m a gay man in a gay woman’s body- don’t ask how that works- because I have a high sex drive and like to go out on the scene, and also to an extent because I’m a tech geek and a sci-fi fan who loves her pop music, eurovision and musicals….and 1001 other trivial reasons.

    Anyway, the point I’m getting at is there are a lot of different personalities out there so ease up on the generalising.

    I realise this has little to do with the original story…but there you go. :)

  51. Good to have imput from a Lesbian.

    It’s my guess that Rebecca Hill and her partner were refused entry into a Lesbian Club, and this little episode is no way to ingratiate themselves in the eyes of the Lesbian community.

  52. Geo Vox;

    Could you repeat that in simple English, please?

  53. Simon Murphy 24 Jul 2009, 12:04am

    Let’s not forget 1 important point of this story which only I seem to have noticed.

    Paragraph 2 says: “Rebecca Hill and her partner were drinking at the upstairs bar of the Key West Hotel in Torquay last Sunday, just after the town’s Pride festival.”

    So perhaps they were drunk and if they read this story on here they may well be mortified at their over-reaction to being refused entry to a gay male sex bar.

  54. Oh, I had noticed that paragraph 2, except that I wasn’t as generous as you. I thought they were both drunk and stoned.

    Moreover, if Rebecca had the balls now that she had that evening, she would not only be reading these posts, she would be posting and giving us an explanation…and an apology.

  55. Simon Murphy 24 Jul 2009, 1:52am

    If they’d been stoned they wouldn’t have had the energy or inclination to make a complaint. They’d have been perfectly comfortable upstairs. People of the herb are very placid indeed.

  56. Hm-m-m, Sounds interesting. You busy this weekend?

    Check out the recent Pink news item ‘Men banned from Lesbian event in Australia’ by Ramsey Dehani, July 23, 2009. Har, har!

  57. “Shoegril… tut, tut! how very, very ignorant you must be, and how desperate for a little approval!” – how patronising you are to feel a need to make a personal attack on me, despite the fact that nowhere have I asked for approval. My point is that separatism cuts both ways and accusing others of discrimination for doing something that is perfectly accepted in the other segments of the community is hypocritical.

    As for the I utterly agree this is not at all reflective of lesbians in general, who are as diverse a group as gay men are. I strongly agree with Claire’s point that people find it hard to see her as a lesbian because a stereotype exists that assumes lesbians look and behave in certain ways, but of course lots of gay men also come across this. I do feel the lesbian community has though, been heavily colonised by very homogenous groups that can easily lead to people making generalisations. It was very depressing to hear a friend of mine tell about spending her night in a gay club with her girlfriend and a bunch of older lesbians constantly accussing them of being straight women out to titilate men because they dressed femme.

    And a sense of entitlement is no more justification to enter ANY place, gay, straight, single gender or otherwise.

  58. I don’t know any gay men who like to go in men only bars, let alone women, but perhaps that’s just my circle of friends.

    If it is a simple bar, where people do nothing more than drink and listen to music, all should be allowed in. If we turn people away based on gender or sexual orientation then we condone typically straight bars doing the same and are well on our way back to an era I don’t think any of us want to repeat. I have never been turned away from a bar or club in Manchester’s gay village in 5 years. With the exception of leather bars and saunas, they have all seemed inclusive to me, and that is how it should be.

    I don’t think a comparison can be made between “women only” spaces. Women still hold less privilege in society than men and women only/feminist-based spaces spaces are set up to counteract this. I’m a queer female feminist and have never been in a “women only” space (since that would eliminate about 80% of my friends), but if certain women feel they need that space, let them have it. Likewise, if certain men want to have a club where they can all have their non-mainstream activties together, I say leave them to it.

    I think one of the main problems is that there often seems to be a lot less facilities and venues for gay women than there are for gay men (despite the fact we also exist in large numbers and some of us like to go out and have it as much as the boys!), which leads to this sort of misguided complaining. I also wonder how well this bar was advertised as men only? Perhaps it wasn’t that clear? Who knows? I don’t think comments like “typically angry lesbian” help anyone though. Plenty of people would say “typical screaming, flaming, disease ridden gay man”… It is completely unacceptable.

  59. Those crying “discrimination” in cases like this are themselves discriminating against the very idea of homosexual social venues – which means, definitively, same-sex social venues. If you want to hang out in venues with both sexes, then for goodness sake go to a straight bar.

  60. Right on, Nikolas.

    Check this out: www dot pinknews dot co dot uk slash news slash articles slash 2005-13392 dot html

    Rebecca Hills:I hope you are enjoying this. If you ever came near me in a gay bar, I would boot your right in the arse, you drunken idiot.

    1. Tina Holmboe 25 Aug 2011, 1:49pm

      Threats of violence is what we’ve boiled down to, now? I knew I could find sound in the D’Mail, but here?

      Shameful day.

  61. “‘typical angry lesbian’ is I’ll tell her – it’s the VERY COMMON type of lesbian who hates men gay or straight”

    Wanker.

    That’s rubbish and you know it. It’s the equivelent of me saying most gay men are shallow, thick, bitches – a silly stereotype.

    As for the actual story, it’s a gay male bar……..and? We have girl only bars (albeit Vanilla lets a few gay dudes in).

    I don’t see what the big deal is, I find some of the lesbophobic comments from gay males on here more annoying than the story.

  62. Whocares?

    “If this was a working’s man club turning away women people would say it was wrong.” Thats why they are called so, they were for the men.

    Stop being so PC, Tony blair. bring back Maggie and maybe even Enock Powel.

  63. All right then, don’t check out the website I gave you in post 60. The story was published right here on PinkNews but didn’t make it to the front page.

    We’d be putting away the boxing gloves then, trust me. It has to do with an all-lesbian event where gay men are not allowed entry, and it sounds pretty official to me.

  64. Carl Rowlands 28 Jul 2009, 4:18pm

    Lets not forget that on the spectrum of sexuality lesbians and gay men at at opposite poles. They have very little in common apart from same-sex attraction. I I remember 2 nights out, one with a straight girlfriend – we had a ball! Another with a lesbian friend – I came home thinking I was a pervert after being constantly told that I was always eyeing up men! I was the evil one with no morals or substance as a human being. I have never socialised with a lesbian since and frankly wouldn’t want to. After all, anything we say is incorrect! As my Dad used to say ‘Stay well clear lad!’

  65. Well Carl, how clever of you to judge all lesbians on ONE experience.

    Maybe I should judge ALL gay men on the dozens I see every Saturday night off their faces on ketamine and flooding gay bars with bitchy fag hags?

    No, because that would be wrong and I’m not stupid.

    Don’t be such an ignorant fool.

  66. Perhaps it is because they operate an establishment of “adult encounters” without the consent of the authorities…

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