Honestly, If they’re going to be homophobic they might as well try to be a little consistent in their hate. I dont understand people who take hate as a basis for religious beliefs… there is such a developed hypocrisy throughout the church (among other religious entities) system at present, this being a minor example. Possibly why people such as myself cant take anything from religious figures seriously…
Poor Oscar – he surely doesn’t deserve this kind of treatment! A hundred years ago the Vatican would have been leading the “Crucify him! Crucify him!” chant.
What Monumental Hypocrits these scum-bags are. Please, Please No Cannonisation for OUR OSCAR. RobN yes, but not Osca!
I hope not, poor RobN!
Ha ha, oh Brian you make me chuckle :)
I expect every one will be rushing to their copies of ‘The Trials Of Oscar Wilde’ to see what they can see you poor Darlings…Do hurry!
To me the mirror of perfect friendship can never be dulled by any treachery, however mean, or disloyalty, however base. Indeviduals come and go like shadows but the ideal remains untarnished always: The Ideal of Lives linked together not by affection merely, or the plesentness of companionship, but by the capacity of being stirred by th same noble things in art and love.
Friendship is a fire where what is not flawless shrinks into grey ashes, and where what is imperfect is not purified but consumed….Oscar Wilde.
Presumably, this is the Vatican’s idea of damage limitation.
It is amazing how the ripple effect of same sex unions/partnership/marriage, call it what you like, has so seriously undermined the credibility RC church – much more than anything since Henry VIII.
All the best
Why can’t the old fraud just ‘come out’ himself, him and his Gorgeous George (Ganscwhein) ‘assistant’…?
First a re-think on the antics of the sun.
Now a re-think on Oscar W.
And I thought it was a ‘petrus’; a ‘rock’
So was Northern Rock.
It’ll have to.
There are more campers in the RCC than I have had Mars Bars…and I have had some Mars Bars…
I wonder…I just wonder if this is not just the pre-cursor, the trailer, to next week’s PATHE NEWSREEL.
“POPE BREAKS WRIST AND COMES OUT…!”
I rest my case about the Roman Catholic ‘church’
Damm you all said everthing I wanted to say
I will say it any way
Hypocrits . . . Hypocrits . . . Hypocrits.
Now Calm Down Dears, (Not Esure Insurance!) I will give you ‘Culture Vulchers’ a smigion more of Dear Oscar:
Love is fed by the imagination, by which we become wiser than we know, better than we feel , nobler than we are: By which we can see life as a whole….Only what is fine can feed….Love. But anything will feed hate!
I’ll believe it when I see it.
I browsed L’Osservatore Romano and found that the name of Oscar Wilde was mentioned…mentioned…once in the August 20, 2008 edition which contains a story written by Sylvia Guides entitled “That forgotten Musa that it has generated the European culture” (originally written in Italian and translated by Bable Fish), and relates that “Alexander Ghisalberti speaks about a master on the Bible to the Catholic University of the Sacred Heart.”
The first line reads: “From Dante to Bach, from Cervantes to Oscar Wilde, Thomas Mann to Bulkakov, Michaelangelo to Chagall, the presence of the Bible in the Western culture is so pervasia (sic) to turnout invisible; it seems a paradox, but it is true.”
Again, a Bable Fish translation… you tell me what it means.
Needless to say, Oscar Wilde’s ‘Salome’ reflects a direct influence of the Bible, and I do have a copy of the photo of Oscar, dressed as Salome, in the starring role. Enough to give Ben16 ideas for a new wardrobe.
Richard Ellman does write about Wilde’s deathbed conversion which occurred moments before Oscar raised his eyes to behold the surrounding beauty and expired saying:
“O-o-h, what dreadful wallpaper.”
Artists! Anything to be burried in the Père Lachaisse cemetary, and what a gravestone!
All I’m saying is that I find it difficult to believe that:
“The Vatican has praised the work of bisexual playwright Oscar Wilde, despite regarding him as an immoral degenerate.”
Did the Pontiff, who is presently resting in the papal residence set in the coolness of the Alps, actually mention the name of Oscar Wilde?
It is so unlikely that I am curious to know a tad more about it before informing the ‘Vatican’, whoever that is, that Picasso was born a Catholic, that he was a bisexual and that he saw God’s beauty from every imagineable point of view at a glance.
Oh, I can be such a snoot.
Brian claims: OUR OSCAR
Are you a paederast, too? It’s a bit ridiculous that Oscar is still regarded as a “gay” figure, given that today’s gays are so quick to disassociate themselves from men who are attracted to adolescent boys. Oscar’s sexuality was very much boy-oriented, not man-oriented.
You of course, was there at the time to observe Osca being Boy-oriented only?… You know-alls give me a pain!
When the Tower of Bable fell, it caused a lot of unnecessary hell. Personal rapour became a complicated bore and a lot more difficult than it had been before, when the Tower of Bable fell. The Chincs and the Japs and the Fins and Laps were reduced to a helpless stammer. The anciant Greeks took at least six weeks to learn their latin grammer. The gutteral wease of the Portugees filled the brains of the Danes with horrer, and verbs not lost were the final bust in Sodom and Gamorra….From Dante to Bach etcetra, no one is supposed to understand gobbldegook of that description or indeed the Tower of Bable for that matter. Are we all looking for the ‘Lost Cord’ did’nt old Jimmy find it eventually? Salome was produced In Paris to start with. They would not allow it to be staged in London. I think Osca was more attuned to the ‘Dance of the seven vales’ aspect of Salome than the Bible. Campari, was never far from his mind, concious or un-concouse. But all that aside, he was a wonderfully, remarkable man.
Brian protests: “You of course, was there at the time to observe Osca being Boy-oriented only?… You know-alls give me a pain!’
Well no, I wasn’t there, but it’s not exactly a state secret :)
He did have some relationships with young men, but was mostly interested in boys (as was his friend Bosie). There are plenty of well-researched biographies out there that make this clear.
And like an idiot, you belive everything you read? Put an egg in your shoe and ‘Beat It.’… and Good-By!
You are the worst kind of ‘Gay Homophob’ Your mind is closed to any other type of personal preferances than perhaps your own sexual fantasies, anything which may not seem quite ‘Normal’ to you. Well, it’s time you did a little more reading. Try ‘The Homosexual Matrix’ (I forget by whom) or ‘Against The Law’ Peter Wildblood. On the other hand Nikolas…lets forget it!
Of course Oscar Wilde was a wonderful and remarkable man. He was indeed a married bisexual manipulated by the man he loved, Boisie, whose obsession was to humiliate his papa. Backfired. One of the world’s most meaningful poem was written in Reading Goal.
(see Richard Ellman’s biography).
My point earlier on was that I did not find a story in the Osservatore Romano to back up the article on which we are commenting.
Until I see and read the original story for myself, this unsubstantiated article does not deserve any comments.
Frankly, I think it’s a mid-July hoax. Hahahaha!
Brian fumes, bewilderingly: “You are the worst kind of ‘Gay Homophob’ Your mind is closed to any other type of personal preferances than perhaps your own sexual fantasies, anything which may not seem quite ‘Normal’ to you”
What on Earth makes you say that? I can see nothing in my posts that could have brought that on. I simply pointed out that it’s well known that Oscar was more interested in adolescent boys than in men. I passed no judgment at all, except to say that I think it’s a bit ridiculous that he’s is still regarded as a gay mascot, when so many gay spokespeople these days are at pains to distance themselves from “men who fancy boys”. I can understand someone like Jonathan King feeling cheesed off that the public regards him as a disgusting nonce, while Oscar Wilde, who was jailed for much the same thing, is hailed as a tragic hero.
I’ve read two biographies of Oscar Wilde; one by a Montgomery, the other by Ellman, which is my favorite. I am curious to know which author you are reading. I also saw two movies of Wilde’s life. The Stephen fry one has more panache; the one starring Robert Morley is more gripping.
Of course I understand what you’re saying, and that’s partly why I suspect this article is a hoax. It doesn’t make sense to me that the Pope would hold up Oscar Wilde to the RCC. Deathbed conversions are farcical at best.
Brian doesn’t mean any harm. He is devoted to poetry of all kinds and admires Wilde’s creativity and his tremendous wit. Like you and I, he enjoys sharing what he knows about Wilde.
Oh and Brian, I’m the snooty one who throws tantrums around here, OK.
Bentham, I’ve only read one biography of Oscar Wilde, years ago, and I can’t remember the author – but it had a picture of Oscar Wilde on the cover :)
But from that and other readings I certainly got the impression that Wilde was more focused on boys than men, erotically speaking, as befitted the “Uranian” ethos then popular in homo literary circles. Looking him up in Wikipedia confirms this picture: “Though Wilde’s sexual orientation has variously been considered bisexual and homosexual, Wilde himself felt he belonged to a culture of male love inspired by the Greek paederastic tradition. In describing his own sexual identity, Wilde used the term Socratic.……….Soon, Wilde entered a world of regular sex with youths such as servants and newsboys, in their mid to late teens, whom he would meet in homosexual bars or brothels……Wilde spent his last years in the Hôtel d’Alsace, now known as L’Hôtel, in Paris, where it is said he was notorious and uninhibited about enjoying the pleasures he had been denied in Britain. Again, according to Douglas, “he was hand in glove with all the little boys on the Boulevard. He never attempted to conceal it.”
It’s pretty clear that Wilde’s homosexuality was not the androphile model that today’s “gay” category usually signifies.
Richard Ellman’s biography of Wilde had a photo of Oscar’s face on the cover, a close-up in a tint of Paris green. Montgomery’s biography had a white dust cover with a formal black and white portrait of face and torso in evening dress.
You appear to have done your homework! Thanks for the feedback.
I’m having a busy weekend, but I will try to go through the pile of books I call my library and see if I can find the two biographies.
Wikipedia has often been helpful to me. Sometimes they ask readers to complete their articles. What does that signify?
I’m not putting you down, it’s just that I’m such a snoot!
Also, Douglas is known to have made a living telling all kinds of slanted stories about Oscar, and he did sell Oscar’s love letters. Bosie did grow up eventually, but it was too late for damage control.
The fact that this article is not generating many comments does indicate that the LGBT community has lost interest either in Wilde or the RCC, or both.
Personally, I still cannot believe that the Vatican (who the hell is ‘the Vatican’?)has given a vote of confidence to the works of a known bisexual. If it turns out to be true, I’ll be asking what’s in it for ‘the Vatican’. Haha.
Hmm, looks like they’re not letting me post for some reason. I’ve posted two comments since the last one, but they haven’t appeared…
Maybe it was because I included an URL? Here’s my last post again, minus the Guardian URL…
Bentham asks: “Sometimes they ask readers to complete their articles. What does that signify?”
Well, it signifies that all Wikipedia’s articles are actually written by Wikipedia readers (their contributors/editors are all volunteers from the public) many of whom are experts in their fields. If the Wilde article was inaccurate, it would soon be corrected. Inaccurate material on famous figures doesn’t usually stay up for very long on Wikipedia.
With respect, I’d suggest that if you’re seriously questioning that Wilde’s homosexuality was largely paederastic in nature (i.e., focused on adolescent boys), you’d be challenging people who are far more knowledgable about Wilde and his set than I am.
By the way, this news item is definitely not a hoax. Here’s another article about it in the Guardian online, by Martin Pendergast, a member of the Roman Catholic caucus of the Lesbian and Gay Christian group: (You’llhave to look it up yourself, ‘cos the URL seems to stuff up my posts)…
My boy you are forgiven! Notice I said ‘Boy’ Osca always called his Lovers ‘Boys,’ That was the nature of the Victorian conversation on sexual matters. Whether you Nikolas is a Boy or Man, what dose it matter? I can see Nikolas, that you are a person who dose not like to be disliked. Well Nikolas, rest easy, I like you and I know the Remarkable, redoubtable Benthom likes you too.
Nikolas, I do no give a tinker’s cuss! about Osca’s Sexuality, here’s Why:…..!
The man had killed the thing he loved,
And so he had to die.
Yet each man kills the thing he loves,
By each let this be heard,
Some do it with a bitter look,
Some with a flattering word.
The coward dose it with a kiss, The brave man with a sword!…
Some Love too little, some too long,
Some sell and others buy;
Some do the deed with many tears,
And some without a sigh:
For each man Kills the thing he Loves,
Yet each man dose not die.
‘THE BALLARD OF READING GAOL’
Thanks for the feed back. I’ve been swamped all weekend and didn’t have a chance to look up my biographies. But that’s OK because I am open to more recent scholarship. One in never too old to learn and I am ONLY 64.
I never thought to check the Guardian. Nor the Tablet for that matter. I checked Zenith dor org; they usually pick up every scrap coming out of the Vatican. I will definetly look up the Guardian.
My own specualtion, for what it’s worth, about Oscar’s sexual activities begin with the fact that he was a most attractive man, not only physically imposing but also highly seductive as a brilliant personality. People gravitated towards him.
As an extreme example, when he visited the USA in the 1880′s he went down a mineshaft, of all things, dressed à la Oscar and proceeded to enthrall a group of uneducated, sweaty and dirty miners (not minors, ha) by telling them stories, like he did with his own children.
My point is that young street boys, perhaps in their mid-teens but looking older (?), who made a living by hustling, threw themselves as Wilde. So that if Wilde did have sex with these guys, it was the boys who were initiating it.
There is a an important difference there, because these boys would then be in a position to blackmail Wilde and any other appently wealthy gentlemen who would fall prey to their flaunting their beauty.
Does that makes sense?
To return to your point,I don’t know that Wilde is considered a role model by today’s standards anyway. We would more likely look up to Harvey Milk.
So, shall we say for the moment that Oscar Wilde will forever remain an enigmatic and controversial historical personality?
Your opinion is as valid as any other, and you certainly have every right to express it here or anywhere else. We often have conflicting views on the threads – it’s fun!
Thanks again for the tip about the Guardian.
There you go again sharing the world’s most beautiful poetry with us. Big hug.
Found it in the Guardian. I’ll be posting there soon.
Having found the source documentation for this article:
Here’s the Vatican, having squarely gone against Cardinal Newman’s last wishes and having removed his remains from the grave he specifically wanted to share with his life-long companion, Ambrose St. John, attempting to raise Newman to sanctity – something abhored by Newman – by ascribing to him the deathbed conversion of Oscar Wilde, whose very definition of esthetic spirituality was captured by his famous last words: Oh-h, what dreadful wallpaper.
Whatsa wronga witta dis picture? The point the Vatican wants to make is that an infamous degenerate was converted by the grace of a celibat homosexual who succeeded in sublimating his love of men. Bottom line = homosexuality is inherently evil.
Nice try, Ratso, and the sheep won’t even remember how the RCC mistreated Newman all his friggin life.
Keith, pass me a gold brocade curtain, I need to go for a walk, all by myself.
Replace the popes last year commnet about gay and trans with Jew, and you have adolph hitler speaking
And you still have adolph hitler talking. Just the Razi Nazi needed a new group to hate.
Monster – the monster of a monster church. The church that gave the world the hatred of the Jews, Jesus own people. Which hitler leveraged in a poisoned against jews european society to get total power and we know where that went.
I used to think that the line between conservatism and progress defined horrible vs good religions. But now I understand it is absolutist vs thinking religions that defines evil vs good religions.
Every decent catholic in the world whose minds their masters of psychology and hate have not poisoned should demand this popes removal immediately, and a complete appology to gay people everywhere.
And until that happens, do not attend church, do not give them one penny / pence of contributions. Take your children out of church schools.
And if you live in the USA you will find that the more liberal (most of them) episcopal churches will welcome you. Remember that the episcopal church formed because of the tyranny of rome.
The catholic church is dying in the USA, as it has in most of Europe. Make it so
For now, under Benedict, the cross arm of the church is bent – the left side end points down, the right side end points up, Just like the swatstika.
Save the church and humanity from this mad absolutist tyrant, who learned his lessons well, growing up in Nazi Germany.
I like that one of yours..!
“Put an egg in yer shoe and ‘beat it’…!….”
Not heard that one B4.
’nuff now…preefecks are comin’
Well the vatican have always used Art for self-publicity and often art made by the bigest queers of their times. A strole around St Peters shows much work by gay Michaelangelo who favoured the male nude so much that all his women are men with brests added.
Basically the vatican is just so full of crap but i guess we all live with that.
And just how LONG do you think you would remain “alone” if you went for a wander in me mam’s gold brocades…?
I have to fight off the crowds.
AND MORE SERIOUSLY.
I don’t know much about Wilde/Newman or that era.
So a question please,
Was Wilde’s conversion to Catholicism the direct result of Newman’s ministrations..?
Is Newman the ‘celibate’ of whom you speak in the conversion of Wilde..?
There’s a book in the local CTS bookshop, on Brazennose St. MCR., about Newman and Ambrose; was £30 or so; now £4.99 to clear, so I might just ‘invest’.
It’ll keep me off these pages and thus stop everybody being bored tit-wit-brain-less by my inanities, if nowt else.
CAMPARI is the name of the game. I was asked by ‘high authority’…Are you a practicing Homosexual? I said, No, I’m really quite good at it now..boom! boom! Also, when I went to Join the Army, they asked: Could you kill a Man? I replyed….Eventually!
I thought that was a drink?
‘Campari and soda..?’
I wouldn’t know; I am totally-teetled.
I always used to say ‘CAMPERARI’… as in “Vada yer eek! Schumm Schumm bona…Oy! vada the booona tochers..!”
SALFORD….that’s enough now.. RobN’ll be after us…
…And in a Titanic..glug! gluug!! gluuuggg!!!…(them deckchairs need re-arranging Gordon!) situation, a ‘camperari’ matelot would shout “Palones, childer and Posh-Rattlies to the lifeboats …!”
The old Polari days are long gone! Along with the old Passenger Liners that raced across the Atlantic and back for the ‘Blue Riband’ Prize. I was telling Dear Bentham about the Stewards talking ‘Polari’ in front of the Passengers because it was only Gays that understood it. Bona Homi was a good one, vada the eek! look at her Riah! (hair backwards) Lilly Law (Cop) lallys (Legs) and the best one ‘Look at his Packege’ (Whats in the Trousers) My Partner was aquainted with a Gay 1960s Steward. He told my Love that he had been invited to a few Rock Hudson Parties when the Ship tied up in Longbeach California. Long before HIV/AIDS put paid to everything that I knew when I was a fresh-faced 21 year old! London was for me in my time, my Oyster, wonderful gay London. They tell me that now it’s devided into Closeted Gettos? Gang culture is now everywhere, so it is not wise to go out at night anymore. The Nutty Conservative polititians are talking of the ordinary man in the street, being guilty of creating a ‘Broken Society’ Nay, Nay, Lad; The Theiving Bankers, The thieving (expences) Polititions have totally succeeded in ‘Breaking’ our society…True?….Any-road-up Pet, come and have your Fevered Brow caressed with a soooothing kiss and I’ll say toodloo!
Brian…which ALL brings me back to my (I will be stoned to death for it, I care not) ..it wa’ better when it wa’ illegal…
Friday evenings, front bar, Clifton Hotel, opp. N.Pier, Blackpool..
Everything a nod, a wink…’You been busy, today officer..?’
You felt somehow ‘special’…
This may be a lengthy post, so please bear with me.
Years ago I did extensive research on John Henry Cardinal Newman, and somewhere under my pile of books are original volumes of Newman’s sermons which I inheritated from a Newman scholar who befriended me.
Briefly, and if my memory serves me well, Newman himself converted to Catholicism, and his spiritual diary is entitled ‘The Road to Rome’.
He was nevertheless always considered a bit of a weirdo by ‘the Vatican’, and he was continually belittled by the English hierachy. Why?
I believe it had something to do with his life-long pre-occupation with oecumenism (he is not called the grand-daddy of Vatican II for nothing).
In fact, he began the ‘Oxford Movement’ and led dozens of the most brilliant young men at Oxford into the RCC fold. Oscar Wilde would have come into contact with Newman and/or his writings while he attended Oxford. He may have heard Newman speaking from the pulpit. Newman was a charismatic speaker whose every word rang as true as clear and refreshing spring water. People were elevated (levitated) to spiritual heights by Newman’s demeanor coupled with his humble tone of voice. He would have made a lasting impression on Wilde, that’s for sure.
From what I understand of the Guardian story by Pendergast, the Vatican is not so much praising Wilde’s literary works as attempting to present Wilde’s conversion as a miracle necessary to beatify Newman.
In my opinion, that is a tad far-fetched. In fact, I would call it scraping the bottom of the barrel because Wilde wrote nothing about his own conversion. It’s all speculation, and I suspect it’s an attempt to show how a saintly homosexual has saved the soul of a degenate, inherently evil homosexual.
If you ever do read the eulogy Newman wrote and delivered at the funeral of Ambrose St. John, you will recognize beyond a doubt the depth of the love one man can experience for another man. Newman is known to have sublimated his homosexuality through fasting, mortification, etc.
Frankly, I haven’t kept up with recent scholarship on Newman or Wilde, but it comes as no surprise to me that Newman’s literary excellence can still captivate questioning minds.
I hasten to add that if you do take an interst in Newman, you may very well consider returning to the RCC, on your knees! Powerful logic and exquisite rhetoric. The man was a genius.
As for Wilde, we just cannot ignore what he was like in real life. His idea of happiness was to be continually surrounded by all kinds of beauty. He was ‘the’ aesthete of the decadent 90′s.
Wilde’s last days in Paris were anything but flamboyant. Bosie could have helped him financially, but he didn’t. Oscar was recognonized by his former friends begging for coins at the entrances of Parisian opera houses because he had become addicted to absinthe, a cheap and toxic alcoholic drink that produced melancholy (depression).
If Wilde did die of siphyllis, his mind would have been all over the place on his death bed. In my opinion, and I know I am being skeptical, Oscar asked for conversion simply to witness the ‘beauty’ of a Roman ritual before he died. Pity he could not have had a CD of Palestrina instead.
That’s my version, as sketchy as it is, and I do stand to be corrected if need be. A-a-a-men.
Thanks for that…!
The things you get on ‘ere…!
Education, cadaramarry, and the occasional bit o’ lip.
I haven’t read your treatise yet – just logged on.
But I shall now.
What a tome..!
I only hope the brain lasts out.
I seem to spend all my life on ‘ere; am I a sad, pathetic old queen?
Maybe them priests woz right all them yonks ago…?
Maybe a bit of electro- whizz-bangery around the bonce would have sorted me out…?
……….to your treatise..!
You ‘inheritated’ them books?
‘Inheritated’..? no less…!
Your commahnd of English leaves much to be desah’d…!
Nearly leaves as much to be desah’d as wot my commahnd of English does…!
I arkse you..!
Thanks very much, Bentham, for the post.
I have read it with very great interest.
When I entered the religious life all those years ago, at 15, I took with me a school-friend; he followed me into that life about a year later, he being a year younger than I.
Had it not been for me, I do not think he would have done so but I hasten to add, I seek no glory in that.
He is still there in the religious order and is a parish priest although a ‘religious’ and subject immediately to a religious superior, not immediately to a bishop (3 vows all the business)….well you know all that…
I told him, not too many years ago, why I had left the religious life and he quite categorically told me that the advice I received (undergo a course of electro-therapy) was “appalling” and “very bad advice” but was the “advice of those times..!”
I could not go back to the practice of my, or any religion, “on my knees”, in a handcart, by bike or a pink stretch-limo.
If they got THAT wrong…”bad advice..”… and were willing for a gormless 19 year old, Lancashire oik to undergo that buzz-buzz-buzzery; if they got Galileo wrong as well, well I ask myself, what else have they got bloody wrong?
No I cannot do it.
And in any case, when I got up and walked out of the church, mid-mass one Sunday, Pius XII was the occupant of the Chair of St. Peter.
I wouldn’t know what on earth to do now; not a clue; because I have never been inside a church since…
I could attend a mass in the old Tridentine Latin Rite and would be at home in 5 minutes… but today’s liturgy?
All over my head.
I shall stick to praising my God every time I see the mountains, the seas, a buttercup, a cow, a hornet hovering in a ray of the dying sunshine, an elephant, an ant.
Religion, the Catholic one, with its 3 of this and 9 of that and 10 of the other on the first Friday and 14 of this and 7 of that on the umpteenth Tuesday…
This colour for that day- unless superseded by a greater…..
Ecclesiastical numbers game…!
Bureaucracy gone mad…!
It’s like the Civil Service; the Civil Service in lace and trimin’s and fancy hats….
God cannot possibly work like that…it’s Man’s doing..all that camperari…
And if He does, well I don’t want to spend all eternity with Him…and when I get in front of Him, 5 minutes after I am a gonner, I shall tell Him so.
Thanks for your post; I appreciated it very much and I shall ‘invest’ the fiver in that SALE book (was 30 quid..!) at the CTS in MCR and bone up on Newman.
Ah dear Oscar. Obsessed with beauty and youth. I wish the story of him and the infamously tempestuous Alfred “Bosie” Douglas ended well. It should have it’s own book. Classic tale of forbidden love, drinking, poetry, sex and of course, going against ‘the man’.
Hypocritical that the Church would praise him now when he represents everything they claim to hate about modern society. You’d think that with all the hypocrisy the church has suffered over the years, they’d just quit now.
Note: Wilde died of an ear infection that spread to his brain. He also stated that he wished to die Catholic because it was a romantic religion.
Your comment makes perfect sense to me, and especially your final note. I believe it was Ellman who wrote of the possiblity of Oscar’s death by syphiles, but I have heard of the ear infection version. It was reported that a stinking green substance oozed from Oscar’s ear. In either case, Oscar would have been very confused; his brain would have been on fire.
Also, his need for a romantic religion more or less corresponds to what I said about his wanting to hear the ‘beauty’ of a Roman ritual. And there is no more romantic religious music than Palestrina!
Thanks for your comment.
What?? Haven’t you ever ‘inheritated’ something valuable like first edition books from the the 1890′s?
Edgar studied Newman all his life. He lived down the street from me, and we used to meet after Mass and kick things around for 20 minutes or so. He was an elderly gentleman, as humble as could be, and such a delightful raconteur.
When he became too old to go to church, in his 90′s, I used to visit him in his studio where he kept a library like you wouldn’t believe.
After his funeral, his wife, Colette, approached me and told me that Edgar had stipulated in his Will that I should have his library. I had no space at my place for all those books, so I told Colette that I would pick some of the books but that I couldn’t take them all.
So Colette, quite a character herself, replied: ‘Well, hurry up and come and take the g*ddamn things; Edgar and his f*cking books, books, books.’ Haha.
I’m sorry now that I didn’t take his collection of the entire first editions of Charles Dickens. Scholars are weird birds, aren’t they. His wife reminded me of Socrates’ wife: nag, nag, nag. Not all women are like that, of course.
As for the rest of your comment, I’ll leave you to your own good judgement. Falling in love with Newman’s writings…I could think of worst things. It may lead you to Chesterton; that’s like drinking straight whiskey and lovin’ it.
But personally I am now more interested in seeing God during an ejaculation. Did I say that?
I wondered why the baseball was getting bigger. Then it hit me.
Now you’ll have to explicate that, BENTHAM..
Yeah, I get the pun, the joke, but what ‘hit’ you…what did you ‘suddenly understand’…(and be quick…preefecks are coming..)
The account of Wilde’s death I read was ‘Menengitis’ (hope the spelling is right?) Thats when he mentioned that the wall-paper in the room had to go or himself. Robbie Ross did Osca’s funeral in Paris. Gutter-snipe Bosie was there too. An American, ‘Chips Channon’ met Bosie in 1944 in Hove, Sussex. Bosie by that time was bed-ridden. Chips said: ” I’ve given Bosie a small allowance, in the hope that someone may be kind to me one day.” Chips Channon, although married into the Guinnus Family, was Gay as well….Got to go, my sweet Love is calling….Brian get off that damned computer…He! He!..not true!
Well, Keith, the first thing that hit me was that everyone had stopped posting so I must have said something that turned everyone off.
It couldn’t be what I had inheritated, so it had to be Colette’s contempt for books, or possibly my crack about where I expect to find God. Not exactly kosher, is it.
Well, I’m not about to apologize and I’ll tell you why. The thing about religion is that, as you explained at length in a former post, kids are taught just prior to puberty that the feelings they will be experiencing are evil and have to be mastered like real men, and saints, and priests, and bishos…you know.
Well, sooner or later a person has to be honest with himself and admit that there is something awful good about ejaculating and the only problem is solved by keeping a box of tissues around.
It’s even better when you can ejaculate with a smile on your face or yell YAHOO, RIDE ‘EM COWBOY!
That’s the way God made us, isn’t it, to enjoy our sexuality, not just to make babies. So why shouldn’t we expect to find a spiritual experience in the ultimate physical experience? Why not, just tell me that.
Why do we have to choose between one or the other?
The way the Oscar Wilde story unfolds, the real saint was his wife, Constance, although some would say she should have defended her husband no matter what.
The only mistake Wilde did was to take Bosie’s father to court, and that was Bosie’s doing, the manipulative little twat who was too stupid to realize what a gem he had in the love of a man like Oscar. It was Bosie who pushed Oscar to get involved with street hustlers. he did it to please Bosie, that twit.
Don’t you think Newman would have been a more well-rounded person if he had allowed himself the occassional squirt all in the spirit of fun? Sacriledge? Says who?
So, I thought the baseball was getting bigger. Then it hit me.
I wasn’t trying to be disrespectful; maybe I blurted it out too suddenly while you were being elevated by spiritual ecstasy.
That is not a look of spiritual ecstasy in Oscar Wilde’s eyes, is it, and he is the real subject of this thread. Need I say more?
Let’s play ball!
Are YOU priceless..or are YOU priceless..!
I think it was Lezabeela who said somewhere that you make her ‘chuckle’…
I could tell you why you have just made ME chuckle…but I cannot; I don’t know you well enuff and you might tek t’ ‘ump..
Yes, not very kosher, that one; something about Jackie coming late, wasn’t it, if I remember rightly …?
Was he late for his tea..?
Might have been the thing about “…my crack…”
Oh well never mind…!
No, I think these posts run out of steam especially when ‘new kids’ come on to the block…new whinges…new brickbats hurled at us, wot need to be addressed, as in hurled out of the window.
I have just read your #48 again and think we should now withdraw to the smoking ‘rum’ and leave the ladies to their pleasantries.
Why are this in-house mag’s comments so surprising? Is it actually affirming Wilde’s sexuality? Or is it just that 1 – the Roman Church always makes a lot of high-profile converts (they went barmy over Queen Christina of Sweden)2 – it would now be a bit silly to deny Wilde’s literary achievements, which are indisputable? Read almost any passage of his prose or plays – it is golden English (funny how the Irish can do that!!). The RC Church acknowledging him as a cultural landmark can’t be such big news – surely even they can’t be totally cut off from reality?
The name of Oscar Wilde will live forever which is more than can be said for His Nastyness The Arch Homophobe of Rome!!!
Nay, nay and thrice nay, would I get the Ump! Not with a dear person as you Keith. A man of great Sex-periance in the Bar opposite the North Pier with yer nods’n winks! what Luxury! Bentham’s Conversation gets round to ejaculation, well if it’s a hand Job I count twenty eight, twenty nine Squirty!
Well, it was this that made me laff..!
Your comment at #47.
The account of Wilde’s death I read was ‘Menengitis’ (hope the spelling is right?)
“Hope the spelling is right…”…?
Why bother at this junksher…?
Now you’ll get the ‘ump, I jess knows it.!
Never, never, never me Boy! Not nohow either. As Osca said: When I’m in big trouble, I refuse everything except food and drink!
OSCA AGAIN: Who are these scribes who, passing from crime to criticism, sway with such serene incapacity the office which they so lately swept? ‘Narcissuses of imbecility,’ what should they see in the clear waters of Beauty and in the well undefiled of Truth, but the shifting and shadowy image of their own substantial stupidity? Secure of that oblivion for which they toil so laboirously and, I must acknowlge, with such succsess, let them peer at us through their telescopes and report what they like of us. But…should we put them under the microscope there would be really nothing to be seen.
Cardinal Newman’s “remains” were not found in his grave. The Church claims this is a sign of his sainthood or that his body rotted away (including the bones and teeth in less than 150 years?) Hopefully he is buried alongside his faithful “friend” and the Vatican will have to declare him a Gay Saint (somehow old Ratzzi won’t do that I fear!)
Does this mean you are ‘one of us’, meaning a gay Catholic?
Your version differs slightly from mine, and I would be interested to know where you read about these details.
In a few words, I read in the Sept 5, 2008 edition of the National Catholic Reporter an article entitled ‘Moving Cardinal Newman’s body runs into controversy’ and written by Dennis Coday.
In his conclusion, Coday writes that on July 23, 1876, Newman wrote a note to Fr. William Neville, his literary executer, that read: “I wish with all my heart to be buried in Fr. Ambrose St. John’s grave, and I give this my last, my imperative will.” (ncronline dot org/node/1715)
A few weeks later I read somewhere (forgot where) that Newman’s will had been ignored and that nothing was found in the grave but the red Cardinal’s hat and strands of human hair. The plan was to place Newman’s remains in a separate resting place inside the Oratory, and then proceed with the beatification.
It was Peter Thatchell who made a fuss about this issue at the time, saying that The RCC had no right to go against the last will of the Cardinal.
It was my impression that Newman and St. John were indeed buried in the same grave. It was, after all, a common practise in Medieval Europe to bury two monks who had loved one another together so that they would be in the same place when the Lord called them, according to John Boswell’s “Same-Sex Unions in Premodern Europe”, p. 251.
Anyway, I do believe that Newman was declared a saint on July 3 of this year, and it makes absolutely no sense to me that ‘the Vatican’ attempts now to give credit to Newman for the deathbed conversion of Oscar Wilde.
Oscar wanted to see some beauty before he died…anything beautiful, anything but that friggin dreadful wallpaper. It was either a Roman Catholic liturgy with lit tapers, flowing vestments, gold-trimmed missals and a sculpted body of a crucified man or a stable of street hustlers, and he couldn’t afford the latter.
How do you think forensics would have interpreted the grave site?
In my Limited experiance in the field of ‘History For The Masses.’ History is invariably written by Governments and Bodies who need to colour the canvas they are creating before them, to suit their own, mainly Political purposes. Or, in the case of the Vatican. They have double trouble, covering first Religion and then the Political aspects of the situation they’ve created. ( I was astounded!) They ‘Heap Praise On Osca Wilde!’ I still have to pinch myself when I think about the whole situation.
Clergymen and People who use phrases without wisdom , sometimes talk of suffering as a mystery. It is really a revilation. We discern things we never decerned before! (Osca Wilde)
“Hopefully he is buried alongside his faithful “friend” and the Vatican will have to declare him a Gay Saint (somehow old Ratzzi won’t do that I fear!)…”
Comment by Mike — July 21, 2009 @ 13:04
Ha..luv’d that bit..!
You betcha sweet bippy he won’t…!
Too bloody close to home..
Very in-denial that man; very…
iI sounds to me that Osca is implying that the Roman Catholic Church attempts to solve of today with the same consciousness that created them.
That would be like putting your alphabet soup on the burner, going out, and letting your lunch spell disaster.
Doesn’t that make more sense?
..er-hum…RCC attempts to solve the problems of today with the same consciousness that created them. Ta-ra-a-a!
Dose anything make sence in Cathollic Consciousness? The Catholic Faith has always seemed so auster and forbobing to a simple-minded Religous vagrant like me! I have my Sister Iris staying with my Partner and I. we have not seen each other (for all sorts of reasons) for 35 years. Iris has only ever belived, that when you die, your dead and thats it! She is entitled to see it that way, if she wants to and I have never tried to force my Christian Faith on her. Some years ago, Iris was quite Ill in her own bed at home. At one point, she felt herself ‘slipping away’ It was then she told me, she became aware of two sets of eyes looking at her through the narrow opening between the door and door-post. A voice suddenly said to her. “You have to come with us,” Iris replyed. “I cannot come with you, I want to see my Grandson grow up.” Then silence for a few seconds, then the voice said,”I’ll give you thirty!” Then thy were gone. Iris counted thirty days, thirty Months after that but then concluded. If they ment thirty years, she would be eighty four years old at that time. Very strange, I thought. If Iris had been a Christian, I’m convinced in my own mind, that she would not have had that unnerving experiance…..What do my Two Beautful Boys think? (Gog and Maygog Ho! Ho!)
You’ll have to wait until she’s 84, won’t you…?
Have a big party at 83 and a half…
Get all them old GRACIE and BING and BOB HOPE records in…”Wish me luck as you wave..”….”Thanks for the mem…
Why do you get to be Gog? Why can’t I be Gog?. You can’t just appropriate (did I say that?) Gog like that. This is a democracy; we have to vote on this. So you pick a number from 1 to 10 and I’ll check the ballot box and then I’ll tell you if you’re Gog or not, OK. Just say yes.
Brian: Why don’t you show Iris the satllite shatlit satellite shots of our little blue planet? But she’ll never believe you took them, so don’t try to pull her leg after all these years. Is the Queen Mary 2 still at the docks? Bring a digital camera everywhere you go.
Keith, in memory of our dear Oscar, would you like to tell Brian how austere and forbodding the Catholic Consciousness is. I always find that a good opening line starts like this: ‘It was a dark and stormy night…’ What do you mean shut up!!
Phew Bentham; bad enough outing myself as a Gay ex copper without the Catholic bit too (yes, but have given it up since Lent 1978!) quote below from BBC Birmngham October 29th 2008 “Professor John Hunter, from the University of Birmingham, tested soil samples from close to the grave site in Rednal, Worcestershire.
He said the soil would not, in normal circumstances, have led to the complete decomposition of Newman’s skeletal remains.
“It would be, in my opinion, extremely difficult to explain the absence of skeletal material if this is the same soil as that of Newman’s grave,” Professor Hunter said.
He said soil needed to be highly acidic with a lot of ground water washing through it in order for a body to fully decompose in about 100 years.
But his tests appear to show the soil near the grave is not highly acidic.
And he added remains, such as teeth, could have been missed if no archaeologists had been present at the exhumation.
“It’s very, very unusual for a body to vanish completely”
so looks like the Cardinal may be at rest elsewhere??????
Bentham, Keith, Mike,
If you say Gog is better than Maygog…Well, I have it on good authority that Maygog wears the gold-Lame dress, slit to the waist and says: “When I’m good I’m very good but when I’m Bad I’m Better!”
I saw Tom Tryon in a Movie called ‘The Cardinal’ I fell hook, line and sinker, for this gorgeous Looking Actor. Years later, I looked him up on Wikipedia and discovered he was Gay! I just walked about in a slight daze after that.
This is why Cardinal Newman (Jewish name?) bothers me some-what! Mike, of course Newman’s Bones are elsewhear, If you eliminate the improbable, what ever remains, however improbable, must be the Truth. Elimentry my Dear Watson! I have known quite a few gay Policemen, still in the Force and still sexually active! Their number is, and should increase as time goes by one hopes! Yes indeed. Pleasure for the beautiful body, but pain for the beautiful soul! (I read that somewhere!)
If I say I am Gog then I am Gog or do you want to see a grown man spit out his dumnmy.
Gog and Magog…they’re are the two figures on the front of the Coronation coach I think.
I bought that book about Newman and very insightful it is..
I didn’t realise just how close they were …he and Ambrose.
History repeats itself; I think the same can be said for Ratzinger and his secretary, Gannschwein and why not.
Just don’t order everyone else about, that’s all.
I do not care who you are; you cannot go through life like a piece of cardboard ALL the time; there must be SOME glimmer SOME time SOMEwhere in the Vatican, even in the highest places.
So what is life supposed to be..?
An unremitting, 70+ year battle against your own nature…?
I cannot accept that at all where two people are in consent.
At last. It’s like I’ve always said; Two heads are better than one. Hm-m.
I haven’t found my source – it was probably one of several right-wing catholic scandal sheets left in the pews after Mass.
So this is great news, and it adds a touch of humour to the enigmatic John Henry Newman; spitting in the eye of ben16 from the grave. Only his literary executor knows for sure. Yea John Henry!
It feels like we’re sifting through an empty Egyptian pyramid for clues about the whereabouts of the missing mummy. Who-o-o-o-o.
Is that the same Dr. John Hunt who is associated with the National Secular Society? Probably is.
Great work, Officer. I am inclined to go along with your conclusion.
You get the first prize: a life size genuine hand-painted plaster statue of Michael. No we don’t have it in Latex, but I’ll make a note of it. Hello eBay!!
Gold lamé? Well, why didn’t you say so? All I would have to do is to touch it up with 20 or 30 sets of twinkling christmas tree lights, get a mask from Cirque du Soleil, and I’ll be off to the masquarade in St. Marc’s Square with me perfumes eggs and Vivladi CD’s. But I’ll have to spell it ‘Magog’ not ‘Maygog’; I can’t imagine why.
Me Magog; you, GOG!
‘…touch it up’…?
You are awful.!
But I LIKE you.!”
(Dick Emery’s Mandy)
I am surprised we have not been taken to task for all this inane rubbish, you, me, and El Burton; maybe this fred about Oscar was not seen as earth-shatteringly fury-making as the article about the Lesser Purple-Breasted Rochester Tit.
The article about the lesbean being refused entry into a male only pub/club is generating some heat.
I think we’ll let Oscar, Newman and Ambrose rest in pieces now.
Bye bye Magog.
Gog…..by the way, never mind your, my and El Burton’s crappy spelling, how/where do you access diacritic marks..?
I knew once but I have lost it…but you knew that already..!
BUT BOYS, BOYS!
I could really SPANK your bare (wobbly) Bottoms, you naughty things. Keith, MAY sounds better than MA…Ma is Botwanian for Madam. Now I would Not Lower myself to calling you two ( who are the essence of Purity!) MADAM! May has a sweet ring to it, like ‘May-Time In Mayfair’ Jiggle my Jacksy! Ups-not that! You are confusing me Boys. I will throw on my two fox-furs and perambulate down the Promanade!
Bentham, no problem; always pleased to help. Hi Brian, yes well missing bodies must be elsewhere (as you say pretty obvious) like when the police recently found a headless corpse and said they were treating it as suspicious………..(!)
Forgot to add an anacdote about the Birmingham Oratory; the proposed resiting of the Blessed Cardinals reamins (if they find them!) I went to a wedding there where the divorced bride wore a blue cocktail frock, the Priest was SO obviously gay, I sat with two divorced girlfreinds (both ex catholics) and guess wot; the ceiling did not collapse on us! (and as for practising gay police; I’ve known a couple of Gay RC Priests who are certianly not into little kids preferring to play with the big boys instead!)
I see the long – handled ‘ook….stage left..
K…………see you on another whinge-ette…
It’s ‘whom’, not ‘who’.
Police practacing Hpmosexuals? Nay, nay, there really quite good at it now! I remember when I stayed over in Brighton once. The Large house I stayed in had a fellow called John looking after things while the owners were abroard. When I walked down stairs about 6.30am one morning, there on the hall table was a policeman’s helmet sporting the splendid Hampshire crest badge. When I looked round John’s bedroom door, they were in bed together and in the throws of rampent sex…I buzzed off outside pretty quick!
Mike P.S. Of course, I’m not one for gossip!
Mike: I could easily get used to a guy like you.
AdrianT: Why am I surprised to find you here? Have you been away? Did you see how John M.J. cornered Skinner at the end of the Bishop of Rodchester thread? I made a copy of it and I’m keeping it on file. Absolutely precious. So are you (Oops, there goes my French side! Don’t be alarmed). Haha.
Brian LOL! Sounds a bit like a plot from a naughty film(!!!)
Thanks Bentham; nice to have a decent conversation!
Mike…No Movie involved, which ‘Convent’ did you escape from?
Keith, you are not leaving us to visit the King of Siam are you?
Brian; my Aunt was a Mother Superior(!) How did you guess!!!!
Off to float in marble halls in one of them there crinolines that Deborah Carr (was it?) had on..in the film.
Si’ thi’ in a month…
Please, please be awear of ‘Deep vain thromboses’ on long flights! Make sure you can move your legs and jiggle them about. The Deep Vain Thrombosis starts in the Legs.That is me being serious Keith!!!……..
The King of Siam is called Yul Brenner I think and he Died before a romance could take place between him and Deborah Carr..They Danced well Together though! I expect most of the Monastery Monks wear little bells on their penises so that when a bell rings, it means they fancy the Monk he met in the cloyster.
Thanks for the advice….Mr B.
I have already had the ‘all queer’ from my doctor…so I am off to float my crinoline with that nice Mr. Brynner.
As for bells in important likkle places….well I don’t know about that.
I do know that the wat (the temple) is usually the local bum palace….that’s what they themselves call them anyway, the irreligious few, that is…and there are a few; a few like us heinously heathenous lot on ‘ere, who have seen through it all and realise that it ALL boils down to moolah..!
Anyway, BRIAN, I wouldn’t have any other kind of Deep Vein Thrombosis than the vain kind…always been proud of me legs.
Proud of your Lallys? wont they be hidden under your ancle- length Caftan? I can imagine you will hold your own over there in Thailand Keith.
I have no idea how Oscar Wilde became a hero for the “gay rights” movement. It’s as if people have forgotten that he did take Bosie’s father to court, to sue him for libel for having called him a sodomite (though this word had not been spelled correctly by said Marquess). He was actively denying sodomy in a court of law (i.e. not proud of his sexuality). It was only after this libel case collapsed that OW was then charged with sexual crimes (a charge he denied) – i.e. sex with boys ranging from 15 – 19 years old (mainly, if not all “rent boys”). Once he was found guilty he made every effort to make amends and change his life – though after leaving prison and moving to the Continent he kept falling into the same vice (young, if not too young, boys). His oldest, and dearest friend, Robert Ross used to urge him to stop, and also encouraged him to embrace the Catholic faith which had been dear to him for many years.
On his deathbed he received several visits from an Irish priest living in Paris and converted to Catholicism over the course of a week – where he would have made the act of faith, i.e. believing all that the Catholic Church teaches and believes. He would also have received absolution for any sin committed (though he was rebaptised, as a precaution – seeing that his Anglican baptism might have been invalid). OW, then, as far as the Church is concerned died in a state of grace, a loyal son of the Church. He would have had no idea what “being gay” was – the word “gay” started to be used to refer to the effete and homosexually inclined about 20 years after his death, and “gay culture” is a concept recently born in the 1970s. If you read Wilde’s work you’ll see that it was morally prophetic, and not some mincing, camp nonsense. Aesthetics was not related to modern consumerist marketing or titilation for its own sake – but proof of the exisitence of God. He had a keen desire to combat poverty and social injustice, too, and a distaste for distorted egoism and immaturity (which he probably felt he suffered from himself – homosexuality was then, and sometimes still is, seen as a problem of psychosexual immaturity and being inverted, like Narcissus). If he were around nowadays he would probably be supporting the Vatican (seeing that one of his last acts of the will was to become a Catholic!) and would view modern Western LGBT culture (what I mean is, “the scene”) as a hellish form of deluded, immature, hedonistic parody of Dante’s own inferno…pretty much in the vein of Dorian Gray life – as ugly as sin!
The Catholic Church has probably been one of the main employers of homosexuals since the beginning, whether known or unknown – so why on earth should it have had a problem with Oscar Wilde? It never did…A man / woman’s sexual exploits are not taken into account when thanking God for and enjoying their work (art, literature, etc). MLots of artists and musicians who worked for the Catholic Church had sex with same-sex partners, but were never “gay” (as in openly hostile to the sensible teaching of the Church that men and women compliment each other). There is a huge differebce between being attracted to the same sex and being supportive of secularist, left-leaning / liberal politics – they do not go hand in hand!
Of note, both Bosie (who denied any “improper” relationship with Wilde and eventually got married himself, tragically his son developed scizophrenia) and his father (the mad, and early on in his life anti-Catholic and anti-homosexual) Marquess of Queensbury became Catholics, too.