The biggest problem is the racist, homophobic and transphobic attitude of some in police force. Why should we be made to feel like dirt by the police themselves for reporting incidents.
I know of a number of people who have been waned off calling a attacks homophobia or transphobia by the police themselves.
I heard the other day that there is a corrolation between the rise in homophobic hate crime and the rise in immigration from Nigeria and Somalia. I have no idea if this is true, it could be racist supposition, but I would be interested to know if the police have looked at that. I know that every single time that I have been a victim of homophobic abuse in London the perpetrator has been black. It is a very sensitive issue and difficult to broach, but I do think there are higher levels of homophobia among the African and Carribbean communities in London. I don’t know how that could be addressed though.
Is that just like the high levels of racism in the LGBT community?
It is not racist to suggest a corrolation between immigration & homophobic attacks. With every person i know, who has suffered overt or subtle homophobic harrassment, the assailant has been black or Asian. To avoid addressing this issue, due to ‘cultural sensitivity’, will result in many more attacks.
I can somehow grasp the concept of verbal abuse or beating, but just where does the stabbing come into the mental process?!?
These people must either be psychologically distressed or just plain evil.
Oh, and about the dismissive police force. Where can you complain about that? Is there some kind of police inspectorate?
Yes, it’s part of an all-pervasive change in our society – the replacement of understanding and acceptance by imported bigotry and hatred. Things will only get worse as the UK in inundated by a tide of mediaeval ignorance and prejudice.
And unfortunately I have to add to posts 2 and 4 in that all the verbal abuse I have received in London has also been from black men and women. It is not racist to raise this (Abi 1975) and I am now thinking of our close older friend from Jamaica who had lived here since the sixties and even when he died a couple of years ago was still closeted to his family in Jamaica. There is an issue there that needs to be faced up to.
How absolutely fascinating that the two bits of anecdotal evidence of homophobia from a particular ethnic group posted here are instantly attacked rather than acknowledged as information relevant to a debate on the increase in homophobic attacks.
I was going to make the comment before I read the other people. It is no coincidence that the rise in homophobia directly correlates to the rise in immigration, particularly from African and Eastern European countries where it is undeniably rife. Abi1975 and others might get on their high-PC-horses, but there’s a f–king great elephant in the room; it’s about time someone addressed it.
RobN hits the nail on the head. Fact: most muslim youths want us either locked up or strung up, that;s what the statistics say.
It reminds us, to fly the flag, show people that this is a civilised country, we will be ourselves in public and you will get used to it, or clear off.
Abi1975, your comment is ridiculous and not even worth a response. If you think dicussing any race (or, more correctly, cultural) related issue is “racist”, that’s fine. But be warned, more and more people are starting to recognise these false accusations of racism as nothing more than an attempt to stifle discussion. (P.S. I’ve yet to hear of racist attacks perpetrated by gay gangs :P)
I can think of six incidences of homophobic abuse/attacks amongst people I know this year – in one the perpetrator was white, in one the perpetrator was black, and in four the perpetrator was asian. It’s definitely an issue. Obviously it goes without saying not every black or asian person is homophobic (I have some gay black friends!) but I think we have to accept the reality – there is much, much higher levels of homophobia amongst immigration populations. It’s hardly a surprise, people born and raised in countries where being gay is illegal or even worthy of a death sentence (e.g. Iran) are hardly likely to suddenly “convert” to our liberal thinking. But in my experience even in the second or third generation i.e. born here to immigrant parents who have perhaps lived here for 30+ years, there are still high levels of homophobia and that must surely be due to their cultural upbringing/norms.
What is particularly worrying is the reluctance to deal with homophobia by Islamic preachers/muslim groups by police fearful of being accused of the dreaded “racism/islamophobia”. They will happily interrogate an elderly Christian couple who made a leaflet expressing distaste at the gay lifestyle but will do absolutely nothing to preachers of hate who call the execution of gay people. A friend was taunted by a group of asian youths last year, who apparently said they could be homophobic to him because “being gay is against our religion”. Amazingly when he reported it to the police he was told “we have to remember everyone has a right to freedom of religion”.
Britain is sleepwalking into Islamification and I hope people (especially all LGBT people, who have the most to lose) wake up to that fact soon before it’s too late.
You are absolutely right, John. We are drifting toward the takeover of this country by an increasingly raucous Islam.
You are absolutely right, John. We are drifting toward the takeover of this country by an increasingly raucous and aggressive Islam.
I haven’t been subject to homophobic abuse myself, but I’ve got friends who have, and on every occasion it’s been from a black or asian person. It’s not racist, I’m just stating a fact. I realize that not all black or asian people are homophobic and there are plenty of white homophobes, but I think it’s definitely more prevalent in ethnic minority communities.
The Islam homophobia thing has lready happened in Holland. Now, the authorities there are posting equality posters which are also labelled in Arabic.
It should be made crystal clear to ALL imigrants to this country, that they are a guest in OUR country. It is NOT a right. As such, they have a choice, they can respect our values regarding women and gay rights, or they can f*** off back to wherever they came from. No discussions, no debates.
I do not care what the colour of a persons skin, but if they were born elsewhere, and would like to enjoy our country they should get with the programme.
And as for Islam – a barbaric, evil manipulated religion, that has NO place in ANY modern democracy. And no place here. Period.
Well said J Mathews. But don’t hold your breath, no-one will be telling them to accept our values or f*ck off.
Stephen K Amos did an interesting documentary about homophobia in the black community.
You can watch it online here -
teachers *DOT* tv/video/26563
or search for
stephen k amos batty man
Homophobia is rife. Unfortunately with this government’s bizarre commitment to mass unregulated immigration from all and sundry, whilst Britain as a whole is becoming more accepting of gay people, we’re importing extreme hatred from abroad.
Also on 4od
channel4 *DOT* com/programmes/batty-man/episode-guide/series-1/episode-1
wold you have reacted thus if we were discussing female circumcision (i.e. genital mutilation)? Or forced marriage
People do not like being told or forced by law to accept changes that they regard as wrong and immoral. Human nature will always prevail. This change will take years to develop through education and understanding of attitudes towards difference. We all must be patient and wait and see how society adapts to this change. And keep an open mind to the many debates and discussions that homosexuality and it’s lifestyle will create and to the benefits it can bring to society.
John Macdonald: You mean we have to wait for years to expect others coming to my country to stop abusing people they see as perverts?
I’m sorry, if a British straight couple can get put in prison for petting on a beach in Dubai because they did not observe that countries laws, I say we do the same.
And who is to say they *will* adapt to our ways? I see no sign of it. All I see is more ghettoisation, their own languages, customs and religions, and the indigenous population slowly being pushed out. Don’t be so naive, if you give people room to manoeuvre, don’t always expect them to move in the direction you want.
Don’t get many ethnic people where I live, in fact it has the lowest ethnic diversity per head population for anywhere in the UK, but we do still have a huge problem of homophobic attitudes by the police when reporting homophobic incidents…especially incidents involving the police. (Four gay male suicides last year where I live). You can complain about police criminality, prejudice, misconduct, failure of duty of care until your blue in the face, ZILCH!
In case some people have not noticed with the Charles De Menezies (execution?), G20 Mr Tomlinson killing, etc. etc. the police are todays arrogant ‘UNTOUCHABLES (good book written about police corrution in the UK). The IPCC is an ineffectual soggy poodle (which even a hundred lawyers withdrew their services from due to IPCC bias towards & in favour of the police). There problem is NO accountability & NO responsibility taken by Senior Rank for police abuses.
The GLBT population of London had a very lucky escape when Devon & Cornwall Chief Constable Stephen Otter, the hilarious ACPO lead on “Equality & Diversity”, was not recently appointed 2nd in command of the Met.
I hope the rise is actually due to the increase in reporting; some of us have been trying to encourage this for years (sorry Anon; I acknowledge your views on this) through True Vision and other projects across the country. The Gay Police Association has been at the spear head of this. Coments about the homophobic attitudes of some black people and Muslims seem valid. Jamica has a dreadful human rights reputation on LGBT issues. Like the Right wing Christians, Islam uses its holy book to condem us time and again and justifies it because God Says so! (How do they know this metaphysical entity even cares?) But people use religion as an excuse to perpetrate hate as they always have done!
How did this discussion become derailed into an immigration debate?
The piece was about homophobic crime and my experience of homophobia and transphobia is that it is not limited to particular races or religions – bigotry knows no bounds.
David Allison from Outrage is right that more LGBT people are willing to report phobic hate crime these days – mostly due to the efforts of third-party reporting forums (like Galop and Camden LGBT Forum here in London) and the police forces’ own LGBT liaison officers. HOWEVER, there is evidence that homophobic and transphobic hate crime is still massively under reported. Some experts suggest that as little as 5% of such crimes are reported, for a variety of reasons.
The Met Police Service recently published a report into women’s experiences of homophobia and transphobia which found that among the reasons for under-reporting were mistrust of the police, a feeling that the perpetrator could not be caught so what is the point, a feeling that the crime was not serious enough, fear of outing oneself as gay or trans etc. On top of that is the fact that there are currently no anti-harassment laws to protect LGBT people against homophobic or transphobic harassment.
The solution is threefold:
1. amend the law (eg. the Equality Bill) to outlaw homophobic and transphobic harassment (are you listening, Stonewall?)
2. train police officers to be more sympathetic to LGBT people who are reporting homophobia/transphobia
3. encourage LGBT people to report instances of harassment or discrimination to the Police and/or a third-party reporting forum. Evidence shows that as much as 50% of reported homophobic/transphobic crime results in a conviction (according to the recent MPS report). So, it IS worth reporting!
Oh, nicely put Christina, nicely put (my anger & experience of police homophobic prejudice & lack of accountability clouds my ability to be so succinct)
However, I believe Stonewall reported from their survey that as little as 1% of reported homophobic incidents result in a conviction, although I believe that has increased very, very recently since the judicary & police got a few kicks up the arse by the figures.
How interesting. Now, wasn’t Stonewall’s “Some of us are gay, get over it” poster campaign intended to pacify the homophobes and make them want to open doors for us and give up their seats for us on the tube? Seems instead it has served to provoke and incur their wrath instead. Quel surprise…
Always report – the more we report, the Police will have to deal with it. I live in a very diverse city & would be very interested to know the figures on homophobic hate crime & who the perpetrators are, with this information LGBT charities can work WITH these communities to educate them. If they then continue to abuse LGBT people there should be some serious consequences!
I agree with Christina’s comment above about action that should be taken, but I do also agree that the elephant in the room here is race. I have been homophobically abused several times and every time by a black person. I am not stupid enough to think that all people from ethnic minorities are homophobic and I certainly know gay poeple from ethnic minorities, but if you take a breakdown of the ethnicities of the perpetrators of homophobic hate crimes I don’t think that anyone would doubt that ethnic minorities would be over-represented. I am sure the police are aware of this as they record this kind of data. People do know that this is an issue, some people find it hard to talk about, but nothing will be done about it if it is not tackled head on. Education, awareness raising and training are needed. An agreement to respect equalities groups should be something made very explicit to immigrants and they should have to sign up to this. I believe this happens in Holland. No new immigrant should come here without a clear understanding of what we mean by social equality, what the equalities groups are (gender, age, sexuality, disability, race, faith and social class), why equality is valued here and what the penalties are for breaking the laws associated with equalities.
The trouble is Charlenne…by reporting homophobic incidents you can (…and DO in my experience) become the ‘TARGET’ of homophobic police. I know its happened to me & others of my friends repeatedly over the last few years, and reporting police misconduct…just gets you targeted even more (to the point of attemnpted suicide in my case), but I’m bloody minded & keep on reporting incidents & battling away raising awareness that the police ‘ARE NOT’ the gay friendly organisation they are currently being portrayed as by some…far from it!
Otherwise why would the GPA (Gay Police Assoc.) have reported a massive rise in complaints by gay police officers of abussive homophobic conduct of other police officers?
ONLY (for your own safety) report a homophobic incident to police ‘IF’ you honestly believe you are strong enough to put up with the consequences of possibly having to deal with the repercussions of homophobic police officers and their senior officers tacit silent approval & lack of accountability.
Comment by Anon — July 17, 2009 @ 10:56″
Yes, the problem is that statistics can be manipulated.
I believe that the massive difference between Stonewall’s estimates and the Met Police Service’s figures lie in the definitions of homophobic crime. Stonewall’s figures reflect estimates of the number of actual incidents which LGBT people experience as homophobia or transphobia, including the 95-98% of incidents which go unreported. The MPS figures only include those incidents which are (a) reported and (b) categorised as a crime under existing legislation (which excludes harassment). My point was that when the incident is prosecutable under legislation, the police have a 50% record of apprehension and charging the perpetrators. So, if we report and extend the law to cover harassment, the police will be in a position to arrest and prosecute many, many times more perpetrators.
We are all told to “end Islamophobia” and be more welcoming towards Muslims. I have not heard of any attacks on muslims by gay people, but the two cases of homophobia I’ve experienced this year came from muslims.
The elephant in the room is the appeasment and promotion of Islam, which is largely intolerant of gay people, and the fact that this hatred is often brushed under the carpet AND people frightened to speak out in case they are accused of “racism”.
When will something be done about this?
QUOTE from Tony “I agree with Christina’s comment above about action that should be taken, but I do also agree that the elephant in the room here is race. I have been homophobically abused several times and every time by a black person. I am not stupid enough to think that all people from ethnic minorities are homophobic and I certainly know gay poeple from ethnic minorities, but if you take a breakdown of the ethnicities of the perpetrators of homophobic hate crimes I don’t think that anyone would doubt that ethnic minorities would be over-represented.”
I do get the impression that some ethnic or religious minorities are less tolerant, yes, but there is still a lot of bigotry in the native populations in Britain, so why get into a debate about immigration? If we try to target particular races we will be rightly open to claims of racial discrimination or scapegoating. If we denounce homophobia and transphobia in general then we are not singling any other minorities out.
I do agree, though, that part of the immigration process should be education about our laws.
If the elephant in the room is seen as some as one of an ethinic origin…the wooly mammoth in the room is the continuing lie that the attitude of police towards gay persons is not homophobic still. Police accountabity…not IPCC whitwash!
Anon, is right that there is institutional homophobia in the police force, but they are aware of it and trying to do something about it. At the recent launch of the MPS’s report on women’s experiences of homophobia and transphobia, senior police officers and criminologists committed resources to training police officers to tackle homophobia and transphobia. They still have a very long way to go but the policy makers in the police are serious about change.
BTW I don’t work for the police and have experienced police indifference to transphobia and homophobia in the past – all I am saying is that I believe things will change.
I strongly suspect there is a correlation between the rise in homophobic crime and the rise in state faith schools who are allowed to teach that homosexuality is an abomination and to be condemned.
i was told by a pcso to “play down the gay thing”
The following stats can be found in the Pink News article, “CPS “rightly proud” of rise in prosecutions for homophobic hate crimes” published on December 11 2008
In the three years ending in March 2008, more than 2,400 defendants were prosecuted for homophobic or transphobic crimes.
Convictions rose from 71% to 78% in 2007-08.
According to the CPS figures, 76% of homophobic or transphobic hate crimes defendants were White British and 87% were men.
Guilty pleas increased from 58% to 67%.
Read the majority of perps were white.
There are serious issues with homophobic / transphobic crime reporting and the Police. The Met Police have a “Sanction Detection Rate” target of 44% for 2009
A sanctioned detection occurs when
(1) a notifiable offence (crime) has been committed and recorded;
(2) a suspect has been identified and is aware of the detection;
(3) the CPS evidential test is satisfied;
(4) the victim has been informed that the offence has been detected,
(5) the suspect has been charged, reported for summons, or cautioned, been issued With a penalty notice for disorder or the offence has been taken into consideration when an offender is sentenced.
The biggest hurdle a victim of a homophobic/transphobic incident faces is the police determining whether or not a homophobic/transphobic crime has occurred and a lot of reported incidents end up not being recorded as homophobic/transphobic crime despite the victim feeling they have experienced one.
Then there is the issue of elements within the judiciary not taking homophobic and transphobic crime seriously – the Michael Causer case and Kellie Telesford’s case are but two examples.
There is a long, long way to go before the the police and courts are up to par on this issue and as this country lurches increasingly in a right wing/fascist direction, all LGBT people should be steadfast in asserting their rights and ensuring homphobes and transphobes don’t win the day.
@ Abi1975. Hear Hear!
Thanks you very much for that data, Black Hawk Down. Very useful and important for clearing up our uncertainties.
I wholeheartedly agree with everything you said.
I cringe when I see politically correct, left wing gay people who support Islam simply because they’re another “minority” – despite the fact a large portion of that community want gay people to be killed.
“According to the CPS figures, 76% of homophobic or transphobic hate crimes defendants were White British and 87% were men.”
Well, that shows very clearly that it would be wrong (and racist) to single out immigrants as the perpetrators of homophobic crime. We have to accept that most discrimination in this country still comes from the people who have most privilege in our society – white men.
Sorry folks I still maintain reporting is the answer. Already had the homphobic coppers debate with Anon; he has suffered and I am sorry he did not get the support he should have. As someone who worked very hard on the True Vision Project with help from South Yorks police original idea of a handy reporting and info pack, I would be pleased if more people reported. Indeed Brian Paddick himself approved of the packs and the CPS. Don’t let homophobes make your life a misery people; we have our Rights now and our dignity and if your police don’t take you serioulsy report it to the Chief Constable or the ACP lead on Hate Crime, ACC Drew Harris, Police Service of Northern Ireland HQ 65 Knock Rd Belfast BT5 6LE
Sorry to hear that Anon – it is truly disgusting!
“Gay-hate crimes are too often swept under the carpet. YouGov polling commissioned for Stonewall last year found that three in four lesbian and gay people in London don’t report such crimes to the police because, in spite of the work done to repair relations between police and the gay community, they still don’t think that such offences will be taken seriously.”
Says he whose own attitude and bias – and that of his group reflects an anti-transgender bias and refuses to concern itself with the trans community. What about hate crimes against the trans community? Yet he can point fingers at others? Methinks the pot is calling the kettle black.
@ Christina Engela: you often say what I am thinking! In case anyone is wondering, we are not the same Christina LOL.
What people need to know about transphobic crime is that the Police Service have only recently started keeping records of transphobia. The police database uses a flag system to record whether a crime has a homophobic or transphobic or racist element. They have been using a flag for homophobic crime for a few years but only last year started to record transphobia. Unfortunately, therefore, there is only a year’s worth of figures for transphobic hate crime reporting and evidence to suggest that only about 2% of transphobic incidents are reported in any case.
but BME (other immigrant/visiting foreigner) people do not make up 24% of the population.
There is a disproportion that needs investigating. If it is true that there isn’t a problem due to non-whites/non-British then we ought to publicise it to avoid prejudice
Wrong Mihangel apYrs. The UK population that are classed as White British was 84.7% in 2005!
Quote by Mihangel apYrs: “@Christina
but BME (other immigrant/visiting foreigner) people do not make up 24% of the population.”
True, but given that 76% of the homophobic/transphobic perpetrators were white, it seems ridiculous to pretend it is a problem caused by immigration or limited to immigrant groups. Since 87% of the perpetrators were men, it makes much more sense to focus any anti-homophobia/transphobia campaign on men in general.
Christina: One main factor you fail to address is the regional variation. Many gay men congregate to cities from rural areas, equally, most immigrant communities are also in big cities. Using your general countrywide statistic is pointless because it doesn’t factor in the high concentrations of both LGBT and immigrant people within very highly populated areas such as London, Birmingham and Manchester. In those situations there is a much higher incidence of homophobic crime, and a proportionately high number being committed by West Indian, Asian, African and Eastern European immigrants.
RobN produce some evidence to back up your argument, not just your prejudices.
RobN, as Jason said – evidence please?
Of course there will be a higher proportion of homophobic incidents from minority ethnic people in cities – because the populations of minority ethnic people are higher in cities.
Members of those ethnic minorities might look at whether there is a high proportion of homophobia in their community compared to other ethnic groups. But I given that 78% of homophobia is from white people, I don’t think it is fair to single out the immigrant population. As I said, 87% of homophobic and transphobic crime is from men – so our campaigns should focus on educating men and tackling the homophobic, transphobic and mysogynistic/anti-feminist attitudes that exist in the male population.
Page 33 of the CPS Hate crime report 2007-2008 (available to download online – just google it), provides data on the ethnicity of defendants prosecuted for homophobic/transphobic hate crime is as follows.
“In 2007-08, 76% of homophobic crime defendants were
identified as belonging to the White British category, and 79% were categorised as White. Just under 3% of defendants were identified as Asian, and a further 4% were identified as Black. 4% of defendants did not state an ethnicity on arrest.”
In fact, 79% were white, not 76% as quoted from the Pink News article.
The report also shows that Metropolitan and City areas had more than double the amount of homophobic/transphobic prosecutions compared to anywhere else in England and Wales. Bearing in mind Metropolitan and City areas tend to have a higher percentage of ethnic minorities in the population e.g. 2001 census shows London’s non-white population was 28.86%, one would expect the results to be skewed towards an increase in percentage for the non-white population. But it appears that the percentage is overall less for what one would expect within the population.
Again, thanks very much Black Hawk Down, for your excellent research.
It is interesting that, while the non white population of London is almost 29%, only 3% of the reported homophobic attackers were asian and 4% black.
Naturally violence has risen. There’s a Tory mayor. That emboldens the bigot thugs.
Bill Perdue: Can’t you come up with anything that doesn’t have a party slant to it?
Christina: As stats and census reports don’t show it, it is not possible to confirm, but as I said earlier, gay men tend to congregate in cities than stay out in ‘the sticks’. I think most people would agree with that. That also means that the effective rates of homophobia are likely to be higher accordingly.
Mihangel: Where I live in East London, over 90% are immigrant / foreigner. Christine’s statistics are only looking at the general spread. What goes on in Berwick-on-Tweed is hardly typical of the same in Bethnal Green or Moss Side. There is a massive slant on the demographic.
Again, short on evidence, long on prejudices. This thread just highlights Abi’s original point, “….the high levels of racism in the LGBT community’.
“the high levels of racism in the LGBT community’.”
It is not racist to be concerned about people wanting to enter the UK from other countries where homosexuality is not tolerated, viewed as immoral or worse is illegal and punishable by death. . .
As mentioned in a previous thread, there are some groups in the UK who think they are justified under their religous systems in calling for the LGBT people to be killed. . . this is 21st century UK not the middle ages . . . when are some LGBT people going to wake up instead of shouting racist racist racist.
I don’t see any racism.
I see genuine concern, worry and anxiety about the homophobia coming from communities who come from countries where imprisoning, lashing – or even executing – gay people is a normal, government-sanctioned activity. No one can expect these people’s values, views and culture to magically change or disappear just because they step onto British land.
I’d be surprised if anyone posting here was racist. How exactly is discussing the negative impact of mass immigration “racist”? I welcome people of any culture and creed who want to integrate and who also share common values of decency. It’s a typical “poltically correct” retort to scream “racism” because you have no real answers.
My ex-boyfriend was asian and muslim and he shares the concerns described here. He has experienced the hostility and violence. He was disowned by his family and community, attacked and threatened with death if he returns to their “area” (an inner city part of the UK). He said to me he was disgusted to see the freedoms here that allowed him to live his life in peace (fairly) openly being threatened and eroded by people from his community who refused to integrate. Is he racist?
This is why the gay community needs to be as loud and proud as possible, to show them we will not be defeated and silenced by medieval cultures that are becoming sadly more respected and accepted.
I was assaulted by a white irish roman catholic a few years ago. The policewoman on the desk at Islington police station was very homophobic despite my obvious vulnerability. When it got to court the attacker’s solicitor asked me if I was a ‘practising homosexual’ and repeatedly called me a liar. The WPC who had interviewed me didn’t speak to me in court but talked for a while to the attacker’s solicitor and on the second day the magistrate just said ‘this is a bizarre case’ and let the attacker off. He smirked at me as we left the court.
There have been several reports of intimidation and violence against the he LGBT community in Shoreditch / Bethnal Green, by specifically Bengali thugs. As reported on Homovision TV.
Wjhat is the community there doing about it? I want to see signs in their language sponsored by hackney and tower hamlets, and the police, making it clear, homophobic abuse will not be tolerated and its perpetrators will be rooted out.
In fact, it is high time a public show of LGBT visibility was made in the Shoreditch area specifically.
James, above, your story sounds completely authentic, unfortunately. For those few Tories who occasionally visit this site to proclaim that all is now well for gay people, take note. It isn’t.
I accept that I’m I’m islamoophic: I do fear the creed that would drop a wall on me, and forbid me from taking alcohol, etc.
The primitive Islam that shouts ludest in this country teaches its children to hate us, and tries to get the laws to exclude us.
And enables its adherants to physically attack us
So which do you consider more worrying, (and pertinent):
“The high levels of racism in the LGBT community”?
“The high levels of homophobia in the immigrant community”?
Comment from the peanut gallery:
I knew someone would come around to proposing a discussion like this… and it sounds interesting. I suggest we begin by defining the options, e.g. what is racism, exactly, and what is Islamophobia…. as opposed to self-defense.
I also find Mike’s comments noteworthy. Is homophobia in London really on the rise, or is it simply getting more exposure in the media?
Admitting one’s phobias ain’t easy. There again, it would be worth while to draw the line between a phobia and self-defense. For example, those who would kill harmless gays are not defending themselves, are they?
Unfortunately homophobia is still enshrined in the legal process in this country and the USA . . . I am referring to “The Panic defence” clause
Panic defence allows a person to avoid culpability for murder of a homosexual person by claiming that in panic they murdered the person because they made a sexual advance which cased them to panic.
Albeit Institutional racism . . . they is no formal structured legal equivalent as far as I am aware regard to race
To all those who have commented. Over the last few months I’ve been highlighting this issue to Boris Johnson, to no avail.
I’ve been asking him why his office and why he, as Mayor of London, hasn’t been speaking out against these Hate Crimes and specifically the murders against those from within the LGBT community. He ignored the requests and instead told me to liaise with the MPA.
I responded saying that it wasn’t the MPA I was asking, but him. So, why was HE not saying anything.
I would also encourage all of you to do the same if you can.
This month’s issue of the gay magazine Attitude features interviews with a number of gay Muslim men on Islamophobia, Homophobia, race and the media, which is a timely and interesting read.
James, I am sorry to read about your experiences (above) at the hands of a thug’s solicitor. It is a timely reminder of the fact that the legal profession remains dominated by straight white males who – legal equality or not – will still try to use homophobia to defend their privileges.
John K & Ian:
It appeares to me that you are on the same wavelength. I wasn’t aware of the ‘Panic Defense Clause’ in the UK.
Perhaps on this point it could be said that GB’s legal system is slightly backward and unprepared for the kind of violent homophobia that may very well immigrate here with members of fanatical fundamentalist sects of Islam.
Sadly this Homophobic panic clause does still exist (although I am sure some clever Laywer would be able to get around it; is it ‘reasonable force’ to kill someone just cos they made a pass at you?)
. . . I know what an archiac get out clause. Unfortunately Barristers have been know to draw upon it, especially in pursuit of getting a sentanced changed from murder to manslaughter . . . and hence a short imprisonment.
I have not seen any racism on the London gay scene. It is a really diverse place with many nationalities. I have met people of all sorts of nationalities and religions and I think most poeple like that diversity. I often see a Sikh guy who wears a turban out. It may be different in other cities. I think there is more prejudice against gay people of other ‘clans’ than racism. Certainly the alternative/indie gay scene that I socialise on can be a bit snobbish about pill-popping muscle marys accidentally straying onto our scene and I’ve seen skinny indie boys in cardigans tell Trade types to put their t-shirts back on because ‘we don’t do that here’. I think it is hard to find racism but much easier to find disabled people marginalised or religious gay people disrespected. But everyone always says ageism is the biggest prejudice on the gay scene. I think that depends where you go. Most of the old-fashioned ‘local’ gay pubs are fine and everyone mixes and gets on together, and there are some clubs in London where a lot of older gay men gang up and get together. I think most older lesbians aren’t that interested in clubbing.
do remind Us all how many Gay White people attack People who are not white…most of the People I have meet who are Most committed to anti hate regardless of the target of that hate have been white gay Men and Women…All of
the Violent attacks Upon People in London because they Are Gay that I have Witnessed All have been carried Out by people Who are black..Yes there are some people Who Gay that Voice racism which is not good however I think You will Find that Most People who are Gay are not such minded …I think You may also find that Violent Crimes cause a tiny bit more Damage to Life than ugly words….Make as many sad shallow excuses that You wish to however Most of the attacks carried Out are not because a small group of Gay Men/or Women don’t like People are Black!…in fact You are a Coward,as betrayed by the words You type here, Well as long as some Gay Men are racist You Don’t have do anything about the Violence Some(too many) people who are Black are fueling..
do excuse My spelling mistakes in My first comment…However let Us not allow some people to reduce the impact that violent crimes has on People ..much of the Violent Crimes upon Gay Men/Women are at the hands of Black People..Yes a lot of attacks are carried out by people who are White against people who are Gay/Women/Bi/Trans, however We do not try and hide that fact,it’s does seem We try and reduce are scared to face the Truth regard’s some African People’s and other People who are Black..let Us not confuse Grace / Humanity with simply being Coward’s.