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Anger over ‘transphobic’ columnist

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  1. Christina Engela 14 Jul 2009, 3:59pm

    This man should apologize – such comments simply add to the stigma already attached to what faces transgender youth. Kim was already old enough to know what she wanted. The rest of us should be so lucky to have parents as supportive and a medical health service as understanding as she.

    By his comments this “columnist” is no better than that trans-hating hack Julie Bindel. Stonewall UK will probably nominate him for an award as soon as they read his article.

  2. Brian Burton 14 Jul 2009, 5:04pm

    I’m totally with you ‘T’ this is a sun rag columnist. I did not see Doctor or M.D. at the begining or end of his name. therefore, what right has he to comment in any any way or question something, personal, stressful in fact so what the hell has gender reassigment got to do with an Oaf Like this sun reporter.

  3. ‘Misguided’ and ‘slightly sick’ are good adjectives for this sort of vulgar and bigotted public comment.

  4. What about Cat Man? It annoys me that people are willing to jump to the defence of those who undergo gender reassignment, but when it comes to species reassignment, the same people are nowhere to be heard. Some consistency please, people; those of us who are animals trapped in human bodies need your support.

  5. I pity the likes of Gaunt and Dave they both lack a basic humanity.

  6. Gaunty is a good bloke, and I’ve known him for a number of years, long before he sadly slid over to the Sun. There isn’t a homophobic bone in his body, and I guess he dis what he does best, and admitted he found the matter a bit disturbing. Why can’t people say what they think without a herd of PC fuckwits descending on people because they shot from the hip? So you were offended? Aww, diddums. Poor souls will be mentally scarred for life because someone voiced their own opinion.

    Stop knee-jerk reacting to every single subject that doesn’t conform with your way of thinking. Get a fucking life.

    Check out
    And tell me that he’s wrong.

  7. [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TAGJpISVERg]

  8. Mihangel apYrs 14 Jul 2009, 8:23pm

    RobN:
    because, frankly, it’s none of his business. OK he’s a columnist, but he’s still talking/writing about a young person, and judging her, without knowing her.

    Would you like him to write about your lifestyle choice (as the Sun would probably label it), and judge you?

  9. Mihangel apYrs: Why not? That’s what journalists do. Admittedly, some better than others. Check this very website out for “Opinion:” pages, including the editor, Peter Tatchell and the latest one regarding bisexuality. That is why it is called ‘opinion’ – it is a personal viewpoint. It is entirely up to you to agree or disagree. Editorial material is intended to be personalised, rather than the day-to-day reportage. Nobody says you have to support or condone it.

  10. Well done Queer Youth Network and Pink News for calling Gaunt and the Sun on their b*llsh*t. Gaunt is nothing but a bully for picking on a 16 year old in this manner…and a stupid bully for that matter. He reasons, because he was too gormless to “decide what to eat” when he was Kim’s age, that she could not possibly know her own mind or feelings. He then makes the intellectual leap that she must have had a sex change because it could help her become a pop star. What a tw*t this Gaunt is. Maybe he should have his penis cut off – it might just make him a better journalist!

  11. RobN: Why did we do what we did? Because his views are fucktarded and offensive and he’s a twat. That’s why we complained. Don’t we as free people have a right to complain? We’re not PC, we just don’t want to be called sick.

  12. RobN, of course he has the right to say what he wants but people have the right to react and thats what is happening. little by little these protests and demands for apologies will make it uncomfortable for people to be openly homophobic. its called people shaping the zeitgeist and everyone who states an opinion does it. the days when transpeople would just absorb all sorts of slander and hits from the media are over.

  13. dave. iv heard of the cat man or stalking cat as he prefers to be called. he’ s not comparable to a transperson in any way. he did what he did because of religious reasons (so be honest and compare him to other ‘crazy’ religious people if you must but not to transpeople (we do what we do out of medical nessesity)

  14. RobN, are you employed by Pink News to play devil’s advocate? It seems that every single article I read on PN comes with comments by you designed to present a controversial or contrary view. Fair enough if you are not employed by Pink News – in which case, I apologise. It just seems odd because you are a prolific and provocative commenter.

  15. Yeah, because fat, ugly, obnoxious, loud-mouth Gaunt is such a food advertisement for the male sex….

  16. Er, that should be ‘good advertisement’.

  17. Hello RobN

    “Why can’t people say what they think without a herd of PC fuckwits descending on people because they shot from the hip?”

    Spare me the crap about political correctness.

    “Stop knee-jerk reacting to every single subject that doesn’t conform with your way of thinking. Get a fucking life.”

    So what are the likes of you doing? A transsexual appears in the public eye, “Gasp! Shock Horror! It is against the natural owdah, urr grunt grunt gerrem kicked the fakkin pervs”. I am not exactly politically correct myself, and I don’t much appreciate reading the “Political correctness gone maaaad!” line of reasoning being used if I dare to find an article in a tabloid full of shit and worth mocking. “Another fat git whining about a tranny, perhaps he should be made to wear a dress for a week, go to a nice footie match have his head kicked in and see how he likes it! grunt grunt fat git hur hur!” Is that politically incorrect enough for you?

    So what is the next far flung urban myth bullshit we are going to hear, we have had the “I wanna be a cat, what about those who wanna be cats grunt” and the “Political correctness gone maaaad!” (Are you really a Scum reader or do you do the Daily Wail?).

    There you have it someone dared to answer the likes of you back without resorting to leaflet campaigns and calls for resignations.
    Not nice when you are back lipped on your own terms is it? Hacked into any voicemails lately?

  18. David Henry 15 Jul 2009, 1:23am

    Well said Sophie, brilliant post.

    Precisely, in response to Jon Gaunt and others like him, people have risen high above immature bullying tactics employed by “opinion columnists” who spurt out ridicule and oppressive view points on issues they know very little about (unlike people like Peter Tatchell). I’m not sure it is fair to call Gaunt a journalist, does Jon Gaunt have any academic or vocational qualification in the profession of journalism? has he ever had the role of writing an impartial news item or is his job to report the news as he sees it not as it really is?

    He says himself, he simply “says what he thinks” – all we ask of him is to think about what he says.

  19. sheepherder 15 Jul 2009, 6:30am

    To the PinkNews Staff Writer: Do you have absolute proof “She underwent gender reassigment a year ago”? What is your source and second source?

  20. sheepherder 15 Jul 2009, 6:37am

    However, I can’t defend Jon Gaunt for his demeaning article. One can discussion aspects of early intervention without ridiculing people with this condition.

  21. A selection of comments from above:

    “An Oaf Like this sun reporter”
    “Vulgar and bigotted”
    “Lack a basic humanity”
    “What a tw*t this Gaunt is. Maybe he should have his penis cut off”
    “Fucktarded and offensive and he’s a twat.”
    “Fat, ugly, obnoxious, loud-mouth”
    “Another fat git whining about a tranny, perhaps he should be made to wear a dress for a week”

    If people want a sensible argument and complain because one person voiced their opinion, however it may upset some others, you do not do yourself any favours by insulting that person, and make yourself just as bad as them. What does “fat and ugly” have to do with their political stance?

    Incidentally, John Gaunt is an ex-teacher and social worker with many years working with young people, so I would say that is a fair qualification for making the comments he did. Also, he isn’t a journalist any more than Peter Tatchell, he is a broadcaster and his main work is radio phone-in shows; based on the fact he IS outspoken, he gets a lot of listeners, and the Sun offered him a column. I have to say personally, I am very surprised he took it on. I wouldn’t wipe my arse with that rag.

    PS: Christina: I have no connection with Pink News whatsoever, but should they wish to employ me as an arbiter of good taste, political correctness and public decency, I should be more than happy to accept a fat pay cheque. ;o)

    1. “ex-teacher and social worker with many years working with young people,” still poses the question, what qualifications does an ex teacher/social worker know about transsexualism? I suggest that every time a journalist plans to write a piece about a gay, trans or intersex person, they substitute the word ‘black’ and see how that reads – then and only then, submit the original text for publication.

  22. Suddenly, RobN, after calling everyone who is offended by Gaunt’s article “PC fuckwits”, you are telling people not to use emotive language in order to have a sensible debate. Are you for real?

    How is it that you seem to post a rude or provocative comment on every article I read if you are not employed by Pink News? How do you find the time? Do you enjoy winding people up when they have a perfectly legitimate complaint?

    Get a life RobN and stop trolling.

  23. RobN

    “If people want a sensible argument and complain because one person voiced their opinion, however it may upset some others, you do not do yourself any favours by insulting that person.”

    Hark who’s talking. So Gaunt can just “Shoot from the hip” at random at anyone who does not fit some Lebensborn ideal of “Gender purity”, (Because they are soft targets?) And anyone who dares find that annoying is a “Politically correct fuckwit who should get a life”.

    Let me guess, While Gaunt and yourself are verbally thumping people who cannot answer back, you expect those who probably can to act like they have their hands tied behind their backs and say “Oh now there’s a good chap, you were right to attack the pervert and you are never ever wrong, oh please hit me hit me!”

    But then that is how the herd really works isn’t it? Easy to whip up the mob against the “Trannies” and have a nice moral panic about them, (And a nice full back account for the Murdoch Empire.). Let me guess it will be “Big brother gone maaad” next. But phone tapping, ferreting through dustbins and dictating how people think, and what people should be as the tabloids often do is not dictatorial but “Working in the herd’s interest”.

    You are clearly more intelligent than this and you can do better than talking this bullshit. Instead of thumping everyone who does not agree with the oh so sacred Gaunt, why don’t you engage in actual debate? You are too scared to do that? People have to have their hands tied while you hit them?

  24. Peter G. Brown 15 Jul 2009, 11:41am

    This man is obese (in every sense of the word!)

  25. Christina, 23:07 – “Fair enough if you are not employed by Pink News – in which case, I apologise.”

    Christina, 9:07 – Get a life RobN and stop trolling.

    I wish you’d make your mind up.

  26. Sophie: At what point did John Gaunt attack transgenderism? HE DIDNT!
    His concern was that the girl/guy was very young to be taking on such a procedure, and that was what he found disturbing. Equally, so do I. I don’t see descriptions such as “sad” or “misguided” as offensive, I see them as concern. At no point did Gaunt deride anyone except the people that authorised this situation.

    As usual, it seems as soon as anyone so much as disagrees with the mainstream opinion of people on here, it’s immediately branded “homo / bi / transphobic” – Well people should learn to stop getting so worked up about what others think of them and maybe try looking at the argument objectively instead of immediately knee-jerking, or are you all so fucking perfect you are unwilling to accept any criticism?

    I seriously think it is you who should debate this instead of the usual over-reaction.

  27. go on RobN, continue to ignore my rebuttal. it makes you look even worse than you already do

  28. Hello RobN

    “Sophie: At what point did John Gaunt attack transgenderism? HE DIDNT!”

    That seems to be your opinion to which you are entitled. Others disagree with you.

    “His concern was that the girl/guy”

    (Curious remark keep reading!)

    “was very young to be taking on such a procedure, and that was what he found disturbing. Equally, so do I. I don’t see descriptions such as “sad” or “misguided” as offensive, I see them as concern.”

    For who?

    “At no point did Gaunt deride anyone except the people that authorised this situation.”

    I had noticed this, I am aware of Gaunt’s comment showing concern about children, it is a pity he does not question the gender assignation surgery that is carried out on younger (In this case intersex children), without consent, who in some cases grow up rejecting what was done to them to be also told they are “Sad” and “Misguided” and that surgery is bad. So I am not talking about transgender but a broader picture. I find all this pontificating in the press to be utterly inconsistent, all about social order and control. I mean saying nothing about such surgery on non consenting kids and everything when a teeneger seeks and consents to such surgery is a bit “Oh we cannot allow the individual the right to control their own body” to be honest with you. You don’t know exactly what it is that annoyed me about Gaunt’s article, you just assume it is all about transphobia and homophobia. It is not, it is about double standards. And people dodging that charge with all the usual crap about political correctness etc.

    “As usual, it seems as soon as anyone so much as disagrees with the mainstream opinion of people on here, it’s immediately branded “homo / bi / transphobic” – Well people should learn to stop getting so worked up about what others think of them and maybe try looking at the argument objectively instead of immediately knee-jerking, or are you all so fucking perfect you are unwilling to accept any criticism?”

    As usual I think articles like Gaunt’s article are crap, and I get told I should “Get a life” and “not be a politically correct”. fuckwit”. But then some people are so fucking perfect they cannot have anyone answer them back can they? If they dare to they are “Politically correct mamby pamby pinko liberals”. But then you were probably born perfect, grew up perfect, had no one telling you how to physically exist or butchering you as an 18 month old. Because such children must not be allowed to make their own choices, it has to be brushed under the carpet. “They might get bullied”. (We must not offend bullies must we?). I am irritated because of the wider issues. But no its all about political correctness isn’t it?

    You make too many assumptions my friend.

  29. RobN you dont get it. on any level. even referring to a transperson as ‘girl/guy’ is incredibly offensive to us. its akin to calling us a faggot. Please dont do it!

  30. I should stop reading the comments here, I really should. RobN is transphobic and so is Jon Gaunt. Maybe they don’t consciously intend to be, but all their prejudice and ingrained attitudes leak out over the place (such as in RobN’s girl/guy comment – Kim Petras is clearly a girl, don’t give us any of this “ladyboy” shit as if it’s a good idea)

    Also, people who complain about “political correctness” are just annoyed they aren’t allowed to be openly and blatantly bigoted any more. Fuck those people. No, you can’t use abusive slurs or treat people like shit. Kindly put on your big girl trousers and deal with it.

  31. Celia – your description of people who moan about political correctness is right in the nose

  32. Xaria / Celia: I used the term girl/guy because I couldnt determine anywhere in the article what gender they were supposed to be, or even if they were pre- or post- op. Even more tricky is you couldn’t even deduce it from the name as “Kim” could be either male or female.

    In a previous article on here a lot of people, (gay and straight), admitted to finding it difficult to cope with sex-changes (oh , sorry – ahem, gender reassignment), and how to refer to people and address them. It’s not like there is some official etiquette of how to treat a bloke in a frock. It’s not transphobic, it’s just confused, embarrassed and often completely baffled as to how to handle the situation without offending anyone. I had the worry had I said “girl” they would have had a pop, or equally “guy” – so I used both. As I said before, you people just overreact, and in my eagerness to cover all bases I get touchy little wankers like you telling me I’m transphobic. And you wonder why you get so much shit back with miserable bitch-queen attitudes like that?

  33. Hello RobN

    “In a previous article on here a lot of people, (gay and straight), admitted to finding it difficult to cope with sex-changes (oh , sorry – ahem, gender reassignment), and how to refer to people and address them. It’s not like there is some official etiquette of how to treat a bloke in a frock. It’s not transphobic.”

    I know, it is never easy, (I genuineley sympathise with you over that given the plethora of terms used) Having said that some people call a fetus diagnosed with C.A.I.S. a “Bloke in a frock”.
    When it truth it is a female fetus with XY chromosomes. Who would be over reacting then? Ever seen the panic when an intersex child is born? I have. Why is the notion of absolute male or female so important to you?

  34. RobN – I can see why you are friends with Jon. Clearly you are both tw@ts.
    Oh and I am being polite.

  35. why the hell would you have recieved abuse for calling kim petras what she is? a girl.

  36. Funny how RobN suddenly disappears when the questions get awkward instead of the ones RobN can simply dismiss as “Political correctness”.

  37. Sophie: I do have other things to do besides responding to your rabid rants. What fucking planet are you on? What the fuck do hermaphrodites have to do with calling people by their correct gender? The notion of male or female is not important to me, I note it was YOU who kicked off when I used the description girl/guy, so who has the fucking identity crisis? Certainly not me.

    Somehow standing up for a guy voicing a genuine concern regarding a 14yo boy tanked up on oestrogen suddenly becomes an open attack on the entire transgender community. I think it is totally irresponsible for both parents and authorities to support this course of action until they are old enough to legally make the decision for themselves. It certainly doesn’t need space cadets like you flying off at a complete tangent about mis-sexing babies because they have a dick missing.

  38. “Sophie: I do have other things to do besides responding to your rabid rants. What fucking planet are you on?”

    Same one you are on sadly.

    “What the fuck do hermaphrodites have to do with calling people by their correct gender?”

    Double standards dickhead.

    “Somehow standing up for a guy voicing a genuine concern regarding a 14yo boy tanked up on oestrogen suddenly becomes an open attack on the entire transgender community.”

    Did I say you were attacking the entire transgender community?

    OK you want to stick with this? What is wrong with a 14 year old kid who does not want to be tanked up on testo grunting into a, life of “Fight fuck die obey kill yourself life must be ‘ard and suffer hahaha!”

    Makes sense to me, it’s called self preservation.

    “I think it is totally irresponsible for both parents and authorities to support this course of action until they are old enough to legally make the decision for themselves.”

    Bollocks! what about the surgery on intersex kids? Do they not get a choice? No they don’t which makes what you have just said a load of bollocks. Not complicated is it, What have space cadets got to do with it, Oh sorry I forgot, you are being polite. My Apologies.

    “It certainly doesn’t need space cadets like you flying off at a complete tangent about mis-sexing babies because they have a dick missing.”

    So what would you suggest? Stick a dick on them? You have just proven my point, you cannot worm out of the fact that you defend double standards, so you resort to, sniff, abuse, boo hoo, ooh I am hurt, (Sorry don’t work like that :)

    You hoped that awkward little fact would go away, but when I mentioned it again, predictably you dished out another verbal thumping.

    Much rather be a space cadet that some armchair dictator.

  39. Admit it RobN you are loving this really ;)

  40. “Did I say you were attacking the entire transgender community?”
    No, you said John Gaunt was.

    Come on Sophie, stay with us now luvvie.

    Intersex children have fuck all to do with most transgenderism, because that is a physiological anomaly that may require surgery for very different reasons. Stop trying to bring in a serious medical condition up against a psychological problem. Would you allow a kid to have sex at 14? Then why should they be allowed a sex change? The same reasons apply, they are considered by most people, and the law to be too immature to make their own decisions.

    Considering people are not allowed to consume alcohol in this country until they are 18, how can you justify some daft-arsed kid wanting to have their dick cut off before then? Ask all those people that have had tattoos and piercings removed after making the wrong choices as a kid.

    Oh, and do hermaphrodites have double standards? Or when told to go fuck themselves they point out they really can. :p

  41. “Intersex children have fuck all to do with most transgenderism, because that is a physiological anomaly that may require surgery for very different reasons.”

    No they don’t, but the surgery is still done for social rather than medical reasons most of the time.

    “Stop trying to bring in a serious medical condition up against a psychological problem.”

    Well as you have decided to start talking sense. I have an intersex condition myself, I don’t consider it a serious medical situation. It has not been life threatening, some conditions are sadly, but this is often unrelated to sex but a messed up metabolism.) No it is not the same as a psychological problem and surgery on children is a sore point with me. But it seems to me that the individual you are talking about has made some decision to undergo this process of gender reassigment. If they are motivated enough to see it through they will be under the knife when they reach the age of consent. And there is nothing you, I or Jon Gaunt can do to change that. That’s life.

    “Then why should they be allowed a sex change? The same reasons apply, they are considered by most people, and the law to be too immature to make their own decisions.”

    In principle I don’t have a problem with that, but as someone who was subjected to surgery as a child, without consent or the ability to refuse or accept it, and people not questioning it of course I am going to see the double standard in that.

    “Considering people are not allowed to consume alcohol in this country until they are 18, how can you justify some daft-arsed kid wanting to have their dick cut off before then? Ask all those people that have had tattoos and piercings removed after making the wrong choices as a kid.”

    That is a valid point, this is why in the UK surgery is not offered until after the age of consent to transsexual children.
    They can however get puberty blocking drugs such as hormones etc, which in the case of those turning female is more or less reversible.
    Unfortunately certain other children are not protected by these safeguards.

    “Oh, and do hermaphrodites have double standards? Or when told to go fuck themselves they point out they really can. :p”

    Well it would have been nice to find out if that were so :P

  42. Sally Goldner 16 Jul 2009, 4:15am

    This issue has equally as much to do with sterotyping young people as it does about stereotyping trans people. The belief that there is some sort of maturity fairy who waves a wand over a person the night before their 18th birthday to create intellegence, self-awareness etc is plain silly, yet Mr Gaunt expresses that silly “you’re tto young to know, wait until your 18″ belief.

    I’ve met young people with emotional and intellectual maturity 3 times that of their so-called elders and betters. My guess is Kim is 3 times better than Mr Gaunt any day.

  43. Good grief. Every time I see people go berzerk over something RobN wrote, I go back and read it carefully. It behooves me why we make him say things he didn’t say or didn’t mean. Why not simply ask him to elaborate on his opinion?

    He can be a rascal, we all know that, but he’s not dangerous, and you have to admit that he’s given us some good background material on Jon Gaunt.

    A 14-year-old, just think about it – 14! That’s not even old drive a car. There isn’t enough meat and bones on this article, that’s the problem, but I’m glad to see so many of you willing and able to defend TRANS. Anybody would be happy to have you in their corner.

  44. Sophie: I now see where you are coming with this: I am not trying to be nasty about this, but I detect you have something of a chip on your shoulder about intersex babies and surgery at a young age. However, that is an entirely separate argument, and nothing to do with the fact that this child (yes, 14 *IS* a child) – was undergoing pre-operative hormone therapy.

    Sally Goldner: “Mr Gaunt expresses that silly “you’re to young to know, wait until your 18″ belief.”

    What is silly about that? Tell that to teenage mothers, alcoholics, drug addicts and so forth. You are an irresponsible cretin and I hope to God you never have children with right-on attitudes like that.

    Some children may be advanced for their age, but the law cannot pick and choose, there are also very immature adults as well, so a median has to be defined that will hopefully capture the majority.
    In my opinion, we should have never have lowered the gay age of sexual consent.

    We should have raised the straight one.

    1. “you have something of a chip on your shoulder”

      This comment alone reveals a great deal about the ignorance of the general public regarding intersex conditions. Sophie does not have a chip on her shoulder, her experiences and those of thousands of other intersex people are far more than it takes to leave what you call a ‘chip’ on their shoulder.

      Most people haven’t stood, never mind walked, in the shoes of those born perfectly healthy, but with an intersex condition, only to discover later in life that their anatomy had been changed to conform to a socially (not medically)determined stereotype. This may involve the destruction of their fertility, leave them with a lifetime of renal infections and psychological problems.

  45. Sophie makes a lot of sense. There are clear double standards here. On the one hand, intersex children are routinely operated on without their own consent after a cursory examination of their genitals, usually without a DNA analysis and always without asking the child what they want. On the other hand, trans people of whatever age are subjected to years of psychological assessment, bureaucratic red tape, etc etc before they are allowed to proceed with genital reconstruction – and then they are lambasted by jumped up journos and every Tom, Dick and Harriet with a sense of their own entitlement. This is all backwards. In no other branch of medicine are the views and needs of the patient treated with such disdain. We know that the majority of intersex people want to be given the chance to decide for themselves whether or not to have surgery. In most cases, intersex babies do not need surgery to urinate – it is only to mollify the parents and the medical profession that babies are routinely operated on. Then they keep the surgery a secret from the intersex person and they wonder why many grow up and feel there is something wrong. I know several intersex people who have transitioned as adults because they feel the surgeons made the wrong decision about their gender.

    Why is it that it takes a 5 minute examination and conversation with the parents to decide to operate on an intersex baby when it takes at least 2 years and huge bureaucratic hurdles for an adult to get approval for something they have known their whole life?

    Also, I find it laughable when people who are not trans say things like “aren’t you rushing into this” or, in the case of Kim Petras, “have her doctors and parents really thought this through?” You obviously have no idea how difficult it is for an adult to get approval for gender reassignment surgery. In Kim Petras’s case, it must have been doubly difficult because she was 16 when she had surgery.

    @RobN you are very offensive when you swear at people, call them names, tell them to f*ck themselves and purposely misgender Kim Petras. You like to pretend that you have a superior understanding of things but all you do, time and time again, is show that you are just interested in winding people up or justifying positions base on knee-jerk, emotional responses to issues you have absolutely no personal investment in. This is not fair. The people you are arguing with have a direct interest in these issues – which affect their daily lives – whereas you (like Jon Gaunt) are interested in this only as amusement/self-aggrandisement and will move on to annoying some other group of people when the next headline is published. Shame on you RobN

  46. Hello RobN

    I am the first to admit having a chip on my shoulder about issues around childhood surgery etc. I would be dishonest if I tried to say my motivations were different.

    Having said this, you obviously see consent and the age of consent as being very important in all this, and I agree with you on that. My problem is how inconsistent things are right now.

    A lot of 14 year old intersex children are being forced to have hormone therapies, whether they like it or not. This is after being surgicaly altered at a younger age. As you say, if you regret this sort of thing having being done what then? Well how much worse is it when it was something you would never have wanted to begin with.

    It does strike me as very odd that the media and various medical bodies seem to be very harsh on transsexual folks, (Who clearly express some desire, need, wish, whatever your point of view) And often say they should not seek such treatment, while at the same time similar treatment is inflicted on countless intersex kids every year and that never seems to be questioned.

    You are right to point out that these situations are different, but it is all about consent when you think about it. In a way you have said it yourself. I bitterly regret some of the stuff that was done to me and I didn’t ask for it. If only there were people like yourself and Jon who used the same argument and questioned this. I think your ethical arguments apply far better to what I am describing.

    In the UK 450 children are surgically altered every year, and then there are the years of brainwashing “Social adjustment therapy” that follow. Most of it without consent. And do you know how much taxpayers money is spent on that, a lot more than is spent on transsexual folks oddly enough. The issues are different but the issue of consent is at the core of medical ethics. As it stands in the UK those ethics are not being upheld in anything like the way they should.

  47. Even members of the gay community are harsh on transsexuals. I saw a photo of Chaz and his girlfriend on 365gay dot com the other day, and I was really well impressed with how well and happy he looked. Also, I’m priviledged to be a friend of a Trans and I love her to death, even though I’m 100% gay.

    There’s a tremendous amount of information on this thread. The average gay guy isn’t remotely aware of these complex situations.

    Thanks for sharing.

  48. Bad Hair Days 16 Jul 2009, 3:57pm

    Pressing a girl into a male puperty which will eventually follow without help for me is mutilation too. I’m very happy for every transsexual who does get help early enough. I’ve been through the hell of a false puperty. And my body is marked by that.

  49. Hello Bad Hair Days, I agree with you, forcing anyone through the wrong puberty is bad, but as it stands it seems that this is what the system wants. Transsexual kids are still made to endure puberty when they are clearly distressed by it, and intersex kids have it foisted on them via “Therapy”. In many ways this is what is wrong.

  50. Christina: I did NOT “purposely misgender Kim Petras” – I had no idea which gender they were, so I covered all bases. If I managed to upset all the trannies on here, well I’m sorry, but I’m sick of walking on fucking eggshells. If you people are so fucking sensitive about what you prefer to be called, why don’t you tell us, instead of whining about it after the event?

    I am not out “to wind people up” – I just voice my opinion like everyone else. The fact my opinions do not necessarily concur with the majority of socio-leftie vegetarian sheep on here is another matter. I am a gay man living in the UK, so I have as much a “direct interest” as these matters affect me as much as most others on here.

    Oh, and Christina, Newsflash: Life isn’t fair – News at Eleven. Also, we are not all nice people like in the Disney films. Now fuck off and stop whining. I’m not ashamed of anything.

  51. Sophie: It’s interesting you bring up this double standard, and it is a subject that should have more publicity. I see the parallels you are using here, but they don’t really equate. I am not versed in the intersex situation well, but from what I know, operations regarding this are now much more carefully controlled, but decisions have to be made in early childhood before sex hormones kick in, otherwise the situation is irreversible. I have heard of mistaken genders that have resulted in suicides, which is very sad, and why more attention is now being paid to it.

    On a similar note, why is it that Jewish, Islamic and most American boys are circumcised without any consultation? A similar backlash is now taking hold about this where doctors just administer it as a matter of course, many times even without the parents consultation or approval. Many men are now suing their medical practices and hospitals for this unauthorised procedure. My personal opinion is that circumcision is authorised mutilation, and that unless it is specifically asked for by the patient on religious or medical grounds, it should be banned.

  52. Bad Hair Days 16 Jul 2009, 5:31pm

    RobN – So youre commenting without even having the slightest fact, then wine about corrections, and further your insults (their, trannies) for a good measure.

  53. With all the information coming out on this thread, I’d be interested in hearing Christina or Sophie interviewing Jon Gaunt. Seriously.

  54. Hello RobN

    “Sophie: It’s interesting you bring up this double standard, and it is a subject that should have more publicity. I see the parallels you are using here, but they don’t really equate. I am not versed in the intersex situation well, but from what I know, operations regarding this are now much more carefully controlled, but decisions have to be made in early childhood before sex hormones kick in, otherwise the situation is irreversible.”

    No the regulation on the treatment of intersex kids is still far from perfect. On the issue of hormones, they don’t just kick in during puberty, they are also involved with sex differentiation prior to birth. This is what makes it all the more complicated.

    “I have heard of mistaken genders that have resulted in suicides, which is very sad, and why more attention is now being paid to it.”

    Indeed it is very unpleasant and something that does need to be addressed. But it does need to also be understood in a broader context, and thankfully you have just done this with what you have said next.

    “On a similar note, why is it that Jewish, Islamic and most American boys are circumcised without any consultation? A similar backlash is now taking hold about this where doctors just administer it as a matter of course.”

    Well this is at the root of the problem when you think about it, cultural norms, these practices are often undertaken for religious reasons and have limited medical benefit. Some would argue they do, but then this is where the issue of consent actually comes in. But it is interesting that circumcision is often used to define someone as belonging to a particular faith, if they don’t agree with that faith, it becomes a problem. The surgery was to affirm a status the individual may not have wanted and did not consent to. This is certainly one common thread that runs through all this.

    Look at how it plays out when some of these issues we have discussed overlap.

    A well known case is that of David Reimer, who after a botched circumcision was surgically feminized (Made into a girl) by Dr John Money, but he was not a girl in his head.

    Would that have made him into a female to male transsexual? (When he sought to have that undone) Or a Boy who was the victim of bad theory and medical malpractice? This gives rise to questions about the validity of surgery on intersex children so young (You cannot predict what gender they are.) And ultimately it makes you wonder about transsexual folks, many who have been denied treatment have also killed themselves, because they said they were born into the wrong sex.

    It is just not easy to understand it all. In fairness to yourself, I can see why all this can be bewildering and confusing. I have been on the campaign trail for 15 years, and this is after studying medicine and having an intersex condition myself, and I find it all head hurting at times.

  55. Sophie;

    OK, so my first reading of your post just blew me away.

    Wow. I had no idea, honestly, no idea at all about the complexity of transexuality.

    There’s something missing somewhere, I mean, why are gays, such as myself, not aware of these complex situations?

    I will be reading your post another couple of times, and I really do think that you are the one who should be doing the interviewing, not Jon Gaunt.

    Thank you so much for sharing.

    Great big hug,

  56. Sophie: Bentham has a serious point, and I am sure Gaunty would be interested to interview you. It could only further your cause.
    Honestly, he isn’t a bad bloke and is most certainly not anti-trans or gay. I will see if I can organise something if you want.

  57. Hi Bentham, Hi RobN

    I seem unable to post on the comments for some reason. Yes I am interested.

  58. Oh it is working again :)

    I am interested, we can correspond by email to start with if you like.

    Sophie

  59. Sophie;

    Everyone who comments here has had problems posting at one time or another. It’s nothing personal. It’s a machine, need I say more?

    I volunteer my e-mail address to help Sophie and RobN communicate and launch this project: jpdugast@yahoo dot ca.

    I’m retired and I have a bit of time on my hands

  60. Hello RobN

    Well I sent to an email, and got no response from you. Given that some jornalists employ “Find the email address” tactics to fish for information. I think you can sense my sense of unease, and I am putting this on record here on this comments section. :)

  61. “We accept many people will not be surprised by this offensive and inaccurate comments made by Jon Gaunt in this article, but as Britain’s most read-newspaper we would like to hear at least an acknowledgement from the editor of the upset this has caused our community by printing one of the many letters sent in by our members, if not a full apology from Jon Gaunt himself.”

    The above is a quote from the leadership of Queer Youth Network, David Henry.

    This entire article, together with recent ones regarding Bisexuality and Transsexuality, add to the mounting evidence that members of the UK’s LGBT community, barely support one another, let alone understand one another, possibly making a mockery of the dreams and aspirations of the younger generations.

  62. RobN, I’ve been reading all your posts and I totally understand your point though I do disagree with what you fundamentally say.

    Regardless, I think you can admit that Jon Gaunt knew very well that this article would create a stir and offend people. If he didn’t realize that, then he probably should find another career path. The point is that Mr. Gaunt intentionally wrote this knowing that it would offend people. Everyone who is getting upset is just feeding into his obvious and childish trap.

    The issue of Kim Petras’ surgery is entirely personal. It was probably a difficult decision for her parents and we don’t know anything about what it was like to be in this family. We only see what we see from the outside and from a very narrow lense. Calling the decision “misguided” is a sophomoric judgement call coming from a purely emotional place rather than an objective place. Good journalists have integrity, stick to the facts and remain as objective as possible. Mr. Gaunt didn’t do that in this article and I believe it was intentional. It was a cheap shot. He doesn’t deserve all the attention he is getting for his poorly-written shock-value article.

  63. wow man you are such a vile cretin,whats your problem,are you jealous because you can never be that cute and talented,you should apologize to Kim.

  64. I think “good old Gaunty” may have lost the benefit of any doubt people might have had about his intentions with his latest snide Sun comments about “selfish” gay parents and his whinging that those who accused him of homophobia were guilty of behaviour “as bad as the prejudice and “queer bashing” they had to endure for years”.

    But hey, at least he can draw consolation from the “hundreds” of Sun readers congratulating him on his brave stance and insightful and a original observations.

    Not everyone that has doubts about gender reassignment for minors and gay parenting is a nasty, small-minded bigot. But then not everyone holding those reservations turns it into vitriolic attacks on “alternative” lifestyles in the Sun.

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