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Exclusive: Anti-cruising website publishes uncensored photos of faces and car registrations

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  1. Good! Keep up the good work! People who engage in this type of behaviour and claim it as a ‘gay thing’ should be ashamed of themselves. All sexual behaviour, gay or straight, should be in private!

  2. That’s ridiculous.

    I think ‘cruising’ is foul if it’s in a public place, but why is there not an anti-’dogging’ site against straight people too?

  3. I agree with Lezabella, what about the “disgusting practices” of straight people? Why are religious people so hung up on gay sex, I wonder?

  4. Simon Murphy 9 Jul 2009, 11:00am

    I think this website sounds homophobic. Then again I also think there is no valid reason to go cruising unless you have a fetish for outdoor action. Since the internet it is laughable to hear gay guys say ‘Oh I live in a rural area so I can’t meet people through regular ways’. What that translates as is ‘Oh why would I bother driving my car to the nearest town to go to a nice indoor sauna or indeed log on to one of the endless gay dating sites when I can go to the park and have it off in the bushes’

    I’m not making any moral judgement about guys who get a kick out of doing it outdoors but they have no ‘right’to go cruising any more than straight couples have a ‘right’ to go dogging. They do so at their own risk.

    This website however sounds sinister though. Although are they illegal seeing as they are not recording these guys in their homes but in public.

    Bottom line cruising guys – zip it up. Or if you can’t or won’t then be aware of the potential dangers.

  5. You can be pretty sure the homophobic Devon & Cornwall plod will have their sticky hand in this anti-gay attitude & practise somewhere.

  6. Completely agree with Lezabella and Simon – Cruising is not such a necessity these days and should be put in the same category as dogging. There are many legitimate outlets for gay people to meet for casual sex, and doing it in public places in the bushes and leaving magazines, tissues and used condoms lying around is just giving straight homophobes all the ammunition they want.
    That said, those same straight homophobes are no better for picking exclusively on gay people while ignoring the straight dogging which also occurs. If this isn’t an implicit call for vigilate action I don’t know what is.
    I think if we’re being responsible in the first place, the homophobes don’t get their “outraged of Tumbridge Wells” letter for the Daily Mail.

  7. Brian Burton 9 Jul 2009, 11:28am

    In every Society, there are ‘PEEPING TOMS’ and this cruisingscene.co.uk is a bunch of ‘PEEPING TOMS.’ Someone should counter-act and Spy on them. They are probably ‘Having It Off’ in their car at the same time!

  8. If some gay people and some straight people want to have sex in quiet out of the way woodland places, then fine. Don’t condemn it. It doesn’t harm you. The only objection to it can be to litter left about or if it is conducted right in the public view – this does not happen though. Gay “cruising” and straight “dogging” always occur out of the way in unseen places. I remember years ago a bit of a campaign being launched to encourage people using Hampstead Heath to bin their litter.

    If other people choose websites, fine.

    If others prefer face-to-face encounters in bars and pubs, fine.

    Let’s not condemn or constrain the myriad ways in which human being connect with each other.

  9. As Lezabella points out

    “Why is there not an anti-’dogging’ site against straight people too?”

    . . . exactly my sentiment

    As far as I am aware dogging is actively promoted on the web not monitored and scrutinized at every twist and turn like gay sex tends to be. . . I think we need to ask why?

    Some inconclusive thoughts:

    * Escape-goating gay people as a way of avoiding the excesses of
    Heterosexual promiscuity

    * Creating a moral outrage to avoiding the excesses of heterosexual male promiscuity by projecting this onto gay men

    * Projecting cruising activities onto gay men to avoid addressing the out of control cruising activities of heterosexuals.

  10. In a former life as a PC (not a computer) we were putting up notices to warn people “Is your behaviour appropriate?” in woooded areas and parks. As the police officer quoted, it is not a matter to concentrate limited police time on such areas when there is violent crime etc. Same area was “exposed” against police advice on Youtube a few years back leading to possible homophobic crime but also encouraging more people to use the area!

  11. In the North West of England there is a suspicion that cruising areas around towns in Greater Manchester where there are large Muslim communities are being targetted by Muslim youths who are going in cars to these locations to terrorise the gay men cruising there.This may be a practice encouraged by Mosque leaders.Shades of Iraq.

  12. I think there is a moral judgement about sex with strangers here. People should be able to have consensual sex with whoever they want, regardless of whether they know them or not. People should be able to use cruising grounds to meet people for sex, but they should then take that somewhere private. In most normal clubs and bars people who ‘pull’ go home together- it is only certain types of clubs where people can get it on there and then. If it isn’t realistic for people to go somewhere else they should at least take it into the privacy of thick bushes so they won’t be overseen. And littering is illegal and gross.

    I agree that it isn’t a serious crime that police should waste their precious time on. What’s the point? Better to engage volunteers from safer sex chairties to go to cruising sites and put up notices about using condoms and taking litter away.

    Why not have a designated cruising area and charge people to enter? That could be a great business for someone…

  13. I honestly couldn’t care less if some guy or girl gay or straight chooses to go into the woods for a bit of ‘action’. The people behind this site focus only on gay sex, as they are homophobic. They probably think straight outdoor sex is just a ‘giggle’.

    The people behind this website are pretty evil, and maybe need a taste of their own medicine – I bet they are all not so squeaky clean.

  14. Simon Murphy 9 Jul 2009, 12:28pm

    Gendy – everybody can accept that youths targetting gay men who go cruising for assault is criminal and those youths must be arrested.

    However I do not think it is in anyone’s benefit to make public cruising a ‘gay rights’ issue. It is not. It is an issue of certain individuals who outdoor sex getting annoyed because other people are filming them when they are in public.

    While I think the activitiies of these ‘peeping toms’ is vile and it is motivated by homophobia I also believe that they are within their rights to film in public spaces. Their motivations are nasty but they are not illegal. And they should not become illegal.

    If a guy wishes to go cruising then quite simply he needs to take whatever necessary precautions to secure his own anonymity and safety himself.

    And if he does decide to go cruising then he should have the decency to clean up all his litter.

  15. If you look at the website, it is a moral outrage against gay sex. It features and article that makes totally unproven claims about gay people having short life expectancy, having ‘gay bowel syndrome’ (no such thing), with a conclusion that ‘same sex relationships shuld not be recognized’. by John R Cann. This has been debunked as Religious Right anti-gay propaganda.

    So, the person behind this website bases his belief that gay sex is highly dangerous, leads to diseasem Aids etc. That’s why you won’t see anything about dogging on his site.

    I suggest people go out to try to find who this person is, and film him filming you.

  16. Well obviously the whole web-site angle is just homophobic loons in action, no matter how it’s spun – and I cannot think those involved have any motivation to even bothering with much spin.

    Overlooking that aspect, I must confess I’m pretty unclear on exactly what is fair game with public recordings: I don’t think there’s exactly an argument (moral or maybe legal) for saying that something done in public is considered private just becuase it’s intimate, but on the otherhand I’m sure there must be legal recourse against people recording playgrounds or persistently following you with a camera?

    Does the deliberate act of creating this footage constitute stalking or harassment, maybe?

  17. Simon Murphy 9 Jul 2009, 1:47pm

    The website is homophobia for sure. But to record footage of public spaces is not illegal so the fact that they are being filmed is not illegal.

    Look at Google Earth – what these guys are doing is little different (in terms of recording footage I mean). Obviously the website owner has a nasty agenda here but the actual recording is totally within the law. And rightly so.

  18. Mihangel apYrs 9 Jul 2009, 1:56pm

    regardless of one’s opinion of cruising this could lead to vigilantes, harassment and even blackmail.

    The problem is, will people so phographed want to pursue it legally?

  19. Simon Murphy 9 Jul 2009, 2:07pm

    What legal grounds could they pursue though?

    Blackmail, harassment and vigilantism does not apply if they are being filned in a public space.

    While that website is motivated by homophobia for sure it makes me feel very uncomfortable to think that someone should not be allowed film public spaces. That strikes me as very sinister.

  20. Obviously those behind this website are anything but ‘decent people’ since they clearly state that ‘decent people’ have little or no knowledge, and then show themselves to be experts on the matter. Sounds like cruisingscene.co.uk are a bunch a psychologically-disturbed peeping-toms to me!!!!

  21. I volunteer for Intercom (the local LGBT charity around Devon) and so I think I’ll mention it tomorrow, although our manager probably already knows.

    As Mihangel said above, this isn’t about the morality of cruising, or littering for that matter (remember to pick up after yourselves though, nobody likes stepping in condoms). It’s about these people being forcibly outed and possibly made targets for abuse, even extremes of violence. You might think cruising is horrible, but a sensible person knows it isn’t worth risking another person’s safety over.

  22. Comment 20. Don’t bother to mention it Celia, not given the way Intercom sticks the knife in on GLBT people. Intercom is more likely to vindictively target those out cruising than help them.

    Good, if Intercom is running out of money?
    What have they done with the hundreds of thousands of pounds of funding they were boasting about having got from the Home Office or who ever it was.

    Good riddance if Intercom goes, given the way they have abused some gay people in the Southwest, bulldozed over & re-written gay history in the south west and homophobically attacked the iconic homocentric art work of Henry Scott Tuke.

  23. Cruising is amusing when you are a teenager but it’s just plan sad when you’re a full fledged adult. People shouldn’t be having sex in public areas or on private land they have no permission to be on. Why? Because it’s rude and thoughtless. Even when I went cruising as a teenager I had the decency to take the fella home and not foul the landscape!

    But then the same things apply to people who take pictures of others in public places without their permission in order to publicly harass them. Why? Because it’s rude and thoughtless.

    People who shag in public, gay or straight, and people who post pictures of others on the web for nefarious means, homophobic or not, are just as bad as each other and deserve neither our support or our sympathy.

    We should be condemning both, your own freedom is limited only by the effect of that freedom upon others freedom and I think both sides of this reflect the truth of that.

  24. Maybe some one should go to Streatham and take pictures of heterosexual men ‘curb crawling’ and post it on their very own heterophobic website accompanied by a heterophobic article about how breeders are polluting the world by overpopulation and unwanted children.

  25. Isn’t that Simon Murphy pulling his trousers up? ;op

  26. theotherone 9 Jul 2009, 9:52pm

    Cruising represents the last space open to Gay and Bisexual men to meet without the everpresent ‘Pink Pound’ getting involved, they’re egalatarian and democratic and most of all YOU DON’T HAVE TO PAY TO GET IN.

    You’re all getting a bit Mary Whitehouse round here…

  27. theotherone: Joking aside, cruising at one time served a purpose when homosexuality was either illegal or socially untolerated. Gay men have demanded equality and social acceptance, but now when we are getting it, many still want to be outlaws. We have gay bars, internet chatrooms and classified ads (dammit, even the Daily Telegraph has a gay classifieds) – All these lefties that want to destroy tradition and wipe out the old and replace with the new, I deplore, but in some circumstances there is a logic, and it applies here. Public cruising is unsociable, unhealthy and potentially dangerous and it should be stopped, and enforced by law if necessary. This also applies to straight ‘dogging’ (which they picked up from us anyway).

    It is an antiquated practice that should go by the way like hanky codes.

  28. RobN wrote
    “Public cruising is unsociable, unhealthy and potentially dangerous and it should be stopped, and enforced by law if necessary. This also applies to straight ‘dogging’ (which they picked up from us anyway).”

    I for one would be interested in how straights pick up dogging from gays.

    I await your sociological, anthropological, psychological, sexological, philosophical or any other logically insights.

  29. Comment 21: I have a suspicion you’re the same one that sent abusive e-mails to Intercom. I’ll mention that, too :)

  30. typical bigot – hiding their identity after shouting the odds.

  31. You have to love the gay men who think that clubs, chatrooms and ads are all everyone needs and that the answer to everything is to turn it into a nice little business and make everyone pay. That mentality is exactly what is wrong with the gay scene/community these days and why men do go cruising.

    26-year-old Jae thinks that cruising is ‘sad’ if you’re an adult. Well Jae, wait til you’re over 35 (not long to go for you) and you don’t fit into the ageist bar and club scene that we have now (it didn’t used to be that way) and you face constant ageist abuse on Gaydar and Fitlads.

    RobN reckons that cruising is ‘unsociable’. In fact it isn’t at all. It is very sociable indeed. People who are older, who don’t have lots of money or time to waste (with fakes in chatrooms), or who don’t fit into the club and bars scene, go cruising to meet new people – and not always for sex. It’s face-to-face and the people who do it tend to be more honest and upfront. It is exactly like going to a club, but without the alcohol and cost. In fact I would suggest that, despite the scare stories in the media, cruising may even be safer considering the amount of alcohol-fuelled violence in and around clubs these days. Many deaths and attacks in Manchester recently have been in and around the gay village.

  32. I’m willing to bet that the people doing the gay sex thing are married men. Forced by a sick society to live a life of a lie. Expected to marry opposite sex at the appropriate age, etc. All due to the Satanic church’s closet.

    It is about time, and England is doing much better then the USA in ending the stigma of being gay, and exposing the pure mental criminality of the homophobic churches. These people are in opposite sex marriages that should never have happened.

    If you look at the divorce rate, 50%, you can easily bet that 10% of those 50% are due to gay people trying to live a str8 life. And if you look at all the alcoholism in non broken down marriages, it is about the same amount of people who, really gay, bury their hurts at being in these marriages, and often forcing themselves to stay in these marriages out of a sense of committment to wife and children. They are great people, but were forced by societal pressure into marriages that should never have happened.

    And if one wants to talk about queer marriages, the queerest of them all is the priests who marry the church. Real wierd. What they really marry is a house of hate.Are they victims, or perpetrators is the only question to be asked.

  33. please come and spy on me. I’ll leave the window open. You can see my bare arse. Just an instant before it opens up and feeds you the kind of meal you deserve.

  34. Simon Murphy 10 Jul 2009, 10:11am

    No. 30 Gary – what you say might partly be true. BUt you left out an important part. Guys who go cruising do so in public space. Public space in which homophobes or ‘concerned citizens of Tunbridge Wells’ can go with their camcorders to record what is happening in public spaces. There is no gay ‘right’ to go go cruising. Some gay people choose to go cruising. If you want to meet someone there are plenty of specialist websites catering for the older gentleman like RobN.

    People cruise because they get off on it. No other reason.

  35. “People who are older, who don’t have lots of money or time to waste (with fakes in chatrooms), or who don’t fit into the club and bars scene, go cruising to meet new people – and not always for sex. It’s face-to-face and the people who do it tend to be more honest and upfront. It is exactly like going to a club, but without the alcohol and cost.”

    Claptrap!

    From what I’ve seen and heard it’s for closeted married men and very horny gay men.

    I’ve already stated that the website in question is obviously homophobic, but the issue of shagging in public is another matter; and it’s not right whether it be a straight couple or a gay couple. What right do these men have to make ‘no go areas’ for people because they’re busy getting off? And to then leave used tissues, condoms and porno mags there….? Ugh! Absoloutely disgusting!

  36. theotherone 10 Jul 2009, 12:13pm

    Damn right Gary: ‘pay up for you’re right to be Queer!’ Well those people can just bvgg3r off as far as I’m concerned!

    Cruising isn’t just about sex it’s also a social setting outside the ‘norms’ of the capatalisticly (yes I made that one up) minded ‘Gay’ pub/ club/ sauna ‘culture.’ You don’t nesseseraly have sex in cruising arias; yes it’s a part of the scene but not it’s Alpha and Omaga and besides why the fvck should WE be conserning ourselfs with Hetro morals? To all those who are worried about ofending Hets: you do that by breating my dear. Stop holding hands with your partner, stop having sex atall, stop talking about your sexuality and (most importantly) crawl off and die somewhere because only then will you stop offending hets.

  37. theotherone 10 Jul 2009, 12:15pm

    oh and can I ask the people here who think Queers having sex and Queer sexuality is disgusting to go off and get married because you’re not Queer as far as I’m concerned.

  38. theotherone 10 Jul 2009, 12:45pm

    to quote some posts here:

    Absoloutely disgusting
    unsociable, unhealthy
    just plan sad
    rude and thoughtless
    foul the landscape

  39. “oh and can I ask the people here who think Queers having sex and Queer sexuality is disgusting to go off and get married because you’re not Queer as far as I’m concerned.”

    If you’re going to quote people, atleast have the balls to name who you’re speaking to and atleast have the decency to read their whole post rather than cherry pick words to make your own post look better.

    You quoted ME when I said, ‘Absoloutely disgusting’- when I am CLEARLY referring to used condoms/pornos/tissues being left lying around the place.

    If I was against ‘Queers having sex’ I wouldn’t shag my girlfriend now would I???? I have also clearly stated that it is a homophobic website, and that ‘dogging’ is equally as foul. Am I therefore against straights having sex too?

    If a similar situation arose where this was a dogging site that was exposed, and the ‘doggers’ were leaving used condoms, tissues and pornos all over the show I guarantee you would be disgusted.

    Just because it’s gay, doesn’t mean you have to defend it.

  40. Pumpkin Pie 10 Jul 2009, 1:33pm

    I’d contest Simon Murphy‘s arguments for freedom on the grounds of human rights. If we’re going to allow this sort of thing, then why not private investigators and stalkers? You’ve got nothing to hide, right? Why shouldn’t people follow you around all day and put pictures of you on the internet? Why shouldn’t they give out your registration number?

    You drop your credit card, I hand it back to you, and then publish the account number online. There are PLENTY of sites that would be interested in that. Thing is, you dropped it in public, I saw it in public, you knew the risks of stepping out of your private property, so it’s all totally above board, right? How about I lurk around at the bottom of tall stairways, waiting for women with short skirts to walk down? I could make some good money out of those pics, and it’s all in public, and I’m not doing anything to them, just observing and recording. That’s totally acceptable, right?

    Sometimes, freedom doesn’t mean doing whatever the hell you want -sometimes it means that other people aren’t allowed to do whatever the hell they want to you. A freedom that takes away a freedom isn’t a freedom. It’s a tricky business.

  41. theotherone 10 Jul 2009, 3:37pm

    ok les. Here4′s your post in full:

    From what I’ve seen and heard it’s for closeted married men and very horny gay men.

    I’ve already stated that the website in question is obviously homophobic, but the issue of shagging in public is another matter; and it’s not right whether it be a straight couple or a gay couple. What right do these men have to make ‘no go areas’ for people because they’re busy getting off? And to then leave used tissues, condoms and porno mags there….? Ugh! Absoloutely disgusting!

    Problamatic:

    closeted married men and very horny gay men

    What right do these men have to make ‘no go areas’ for people because they’re busy getting off? And to then leave used tissues, condoms and porno mags there….? Ugh! Absoloutely disgusting!

    –seems you have a problem with people having sex. a no go aria? Isn’t that the language of Homophobes?

  42. Living in Exeter, I have to say that Haldon is notorious for dogging as well as for gay cruising, so it is definately homophobic to single out “gay” men for particular condemnation. The website cruising.co.uk makes the point that up to 80% of men cruising for sex with men are “straight” (interesting to see how they collected that statistic?).

    There was an alledged policewoman threatening to patrol and prosecute men who frequent cruising areas in the south west a couple of years ago, and who posted the same on cruising sites (Haldon was a specific target then!). So the source of this latest attack must include Devon and Cornwall police in its list of suspects, simply because the local police have tolerated this sort of homophobic practise from within their own ranks before, and frankly the local “LGBT liason officers” are not worth their salaries in effective, or affirmitive action. No wonder Exeter Police have not replied!

    The kind of condemnation of homosexuality seen in this website seems to be a direct attempt to influence those who are closeted about their sexuality; married men, and men who feel they can not live openly with the burden of being “out” and facing the social stigma that still remains in Britain today, largely peddled by the sort of person who reads the Daily Mail, the Sun, or believes Doris Karloff (a.k.a. Anne Widdecombe who is moving here, probably to further support the homo-phobic Evangelical Christian Union’s efforts to undermine the University’s Equality and Diversity commitments like she did last year).

    Whatever your personal feelings are towards cruising, frankly we should not condemn people who feel this is the only way they can express their sexuality. Paradoxically, this sort of contact can seem to some to be anonymous, and the only way they can fulfill their desire, away from their families or colleagues, or from public bars where they may be known, or from contact websites where they may feel exposed.

    If we do not speak for those who are voiceless; the clandestine, the fearful, the anonymous; if we do not defend those, then who will speak up or defend us? We must recognise that a lot of this sexual behaviour is a reaction to society’s ongoing demonisation of homosexuality, especially from the religious right. The crushing society norms force men to fulfill their desires at anonymous cruising sites rather than openly in normal social contexts (including websites), since these are hetero-centric and only the “out” gay man can legitimately exist there, and then only on suspcious sufferance. Such “normalising” behaviour militates against the multiple sexual identities of many men.

    It is time we stopped trying to “heterosexualise” homosexuality by aping false heterosexual identities (like the monogamous, christian, married couple) and supported a more rounded view of sexuality that, while including monogamy, also accepts the legitimacy of polygamy and polyamory and other sexual expression.

    If we did a little more of that, and got society to see how it demonises itself (since most heterosexuals who attempt monogamy eventually fail), then perhaps the need for such spaces would diminish.

  43. I also have to add that the disappointment felt towards intercom mainly stems from its own “hetero-normative” stance. As an organisation it alienated many Cornish people earlier this year by accusing a famous dead Cornish artist of being a pedophile. The artist is bound up in the Cornish discourse of identity, so Intercom was particularly insensitive and deserves its many criticisms.

  44. “–seems you have a problem with people having sex. a no go aria? Isn’t that the language of Homophobes”

    No it’s not, just like the adjective ‘blacks’ isn’t the word of racists. If gay men or straight couples are shagging in a certain area of, say a park, you wouldn’t take your dog for a walk there, your nieces or whatever as it’s a ‘no-go’.

    I have a problem with people having sex outdoors and leaving the reminants of it i.e used condoms. It’s about dignity and respect, not just for yourself, but other people- Countless times I’ve been to bars in Manchester that have a mixed lesbian/gay man clientele with unisex toilets (unofficially sometimes), to find a used condom on the toilet floor. I don’t want to see, touch, stand, slip on or smell anyone else’s bodily fluids even if they did have a good time making them! It’s courtesey.

    Look at my first post at the very top of the page:

    “That’s ridiculous.

    I think ‘cruising’ is foul if it’s in a public place, but why is there not an anti-’dogging’ site against straight people too?”

    So yes I’m against people having sex in public, there’s no need, atall. However, this website is clearly a gay bashing site, and a damaging one at that.

  45. “Many of these men partake in unprotected sex with each other.” Hence all the used condoms left behind?!?

  46. theotherone 11 Jul 2009, 12:16pm

    Just why, Les, do you want to join with Hetros in condeming Queer Men having sex in public? Why do you use the same language as the homophobes? ‘No go arias’ verses ‘black.’ ‘Black,’ you say, ‘isn’t the word of racists’ no if you use the word in aq sentence such as ‘blacks are round here all the time, making the place smell funny with their cooking’ then it is. Likewise ‘no go arias’ in the context of ‘gay men having sex in public make them a no go aria’ is the language of homophobia.

    Let us look at one sentence in your post in more detail:

    ‘What right do these men have to make ‘no go areas’ for people because they’re busy getting off? And to then leave used tissues, condoms and porno mags there….? Ugh! Absoloutely disgusting!’

    ‘What right do…getting off’ what’s the problem with someone having sex as long as it’s not infront of you? If they’re in the bushes or off the main thuroughfare then what’s the problem? Do you feal the same way seeing Hetrosexuals, I have to agree with Deric Jarman on this, near fvck1ng in full public view and on one even looking sideways? You think I’m being outragious? Hetro’s engage in ‘dry humping’ and ‘romping’ in the park – at least Queers have the decency to go into the bushs (and I’m not takling about ‘doging, I’m talking about the stuff you see in every park up and down the country.)

    ‘And to then leave used tissues, condoms and porno mags there….’ prono mags? I must admit I’ve lived close to cruising arias quite often and I don’t remember seing Hard Core Gay Porn lieing around – it costs to much to just dump it. Perhaps it’s Gay Times you saw? Or Pink News? Something, anyway, that makes Hetros realise that there’s Queers around.

    ‘Ugh!’ A childish sign of disgust.

    ‘Absoloutely disgusting’ and finaly caught In flagrante delicto, caught with your pants up (so to speak) in full disgusted and outraged mode.

    As matt said: ‘If we do not speak for those who are voiceless; the clandestine, the fearful, the anonymous; if we do not defend those, then who will speak up or defend us? We must recognise that a lot of this sexual behaviour is a reaction to society’s ongoing demonisation of homosexuality, especially from the religious right.’

    or even (same post): ‘It is time we stopped trying to “heterosexualise” homosexuality by aping false heterosexual identities (like the monogamous, christian, married couple) and supported a more rounded view of sexuality that, while including monogamy, also accepts the legitimacy of polygamy and polyamory and other sexual expression.’

    couldn’t put it better myself.

  47. I’m with Matt & theotherone on this. Please, lets stop trying to heterosexualise’ homosexuality. There is a desperate bid by some for gays to conform and be assimalated into the STR8 Borg hive collective.

    God knows too many GLBT groups today are run by ‘wannabe’ hetrosexual sympering sycophants who want to appease hetrosexual fund providers & in doing so are selling out those of us who have fought over the last few decades to push forward gay rights.

  48. BrazilGayScene 11 Jul 2009, 4:24pm

    I thought we had this argument elsewhere, and I pointed this out to the likes of ‘Simon Murphy’ then… No, you CANNOT record whatever you like, just because it’s ‘in public’.

    The last amendment to the Sexual offences act specifically made it a criminal offence to ‘spy’ on people having sex, even in a ‘public place’, this of course includes recording them doing so… (as this would provide the evidence of your spying!) So yes, we now have a ‘peeping tom’ law!

    Please do not keep asserting that someone has the RIGHT to record whatever they please in a ‘public’ place because, as with everything in life, that very much depends on WHAT they are recording!

  49. theotherone: Apparently there is a Black Pavarotti now. He’s going to be singing “The No-go Aria” ;o)

  50. I agree with Matt and the other one. I don’t engage in cruising myself but don’t see any need to pass negative judgement on it. Too many people still automatically put sexual behaviour into “good” and “bad” categories even if the behaviour itself is morally neutral, by any rational measure.

    This cruising debate has been going for decades. I remember 20-30 years ago, attending gay activist meetings where the topic would be increased police activity at the “beats” (as popular cruising spots were called in Oz) and there would be those arguing that we don’t need beats these days and should disown those who use them, while others argued that if there was really no need for them, no-one would be cruising and the “problem” would no longer exist. Nothing much has changed in the intervening generation, here or in the UK, by the sound of it.

    I occasionally toured the beats with a social worker friend who “cruised” for the sake of checking on various clients etc. It’s fair to say the majority of men cruising were not the people I’d see in the gay clubs, and I’d assume that’s still the case. Those who are “out” and/or active in whatever passes for the “scene” tend to forget that they are only the tip of the iceberg when it comes to males who have a significant homo aspect to their life experience, one way or another.

  51. theotherone-

    I’ve already stated that ‘dogging’ sites are just as bad. There’s just no need to have sex in a public place and if you can tell me why, be my guest!

    Crusing spots/dogging sites DO make areas ‘no go areas’ as I for one do not want to bump into people having sex whilst I’m walking my dog or playing in the park with my neices and nephews. Hence I don’t go there, not through my own choice, but because people have ruined it, gay or straight, by deciding to have sex there. To throw the label ‘homophobe’ at me, a lesbian, because I think it’s rude for people, gay or straight, to specifically go to a PUBLIC PLACE to shag is ridiculous, boring, predictable, really unimaginative and it doesn’t make sense.

    “‘It is time we stopped trying to “heterosexualise” homosexuality by aping false heterosexual identities (like the monogamous, christian, married couple) and supported a more rounded view of sexuality that, while including monogamy, also accepts the legitimacy of polygamy and polyamory and other sexual expression.”

    Go for it, but as someone who is in a loving reltionship, and who is friends with many gay people who are in the same boat; this will not and does not represent me or my habits. And I think you’ll find many other lesbians would object to your statement aswell since lesbians traditionally fall in love too easily and have long-term relationships a lot of the time, the lesbian T-Shirt “28 days later…..she moved in” explains this perfectly. People therefore shouldn’t be labelled, the issue here is not whether gays sleep around it’s about sex in a public place which is against the law anyway.

    Maybe by ‘homosexuals’ you actually mean gay men? As I do not know any lesbians who ‘cruise’ in park bushes or any who have been arrested for doing so. It’s not a part of ‘lesbian culture’ to my knowledge.

    Maybe it’s a homosexual male thing I’ll never understand? And if anyone can explain to me WHY this still happens in this day and age then please, go ahead!

  52. Here the Religious people get to complain about the very problem they created out of their own bigotry. By demonizing being gay it is them that have shoveled it off into the bushes… Now they have the nerve to bitch about that fact. What gives? If they would stop with their bigotry, and realize that Gay is a fact of nature. Then maybe these men would be able to be honest about their attraction to men and live in the world peacefully like others and not have to hide who they are in the restrooms and bushes.

  53. Never knew this place existed – might pop up (as local) and go cruising!

  54. theotherone 13 Jul 2009, 1:59pm

    so you’re don’t sleep around? bully for you but don’t go shoving your sexuality in other people’s faces.

    I pointed ouyt that your posts engage in the language of the moral panic, the language of the homophobe.

    The idea of gay porn lieing round, children seing Queer people having sex and so on and so forth…

    HOMOPHYOBE!

    You proved it with your last post: ‘I’m so moral and these people are filthy dogs!’ I don’t care if you sleep with women, men or dogs you’re STILL a homophobe.

  55. theotherone 13 Jul 2009, 2:00pm

    BTW: that post was for Les.

  56. “You proved it with your last post: ‘I’m so moral and these people are filthy dogs!”

    Ha ha you’re a fucking diamond you are, I didn’t even say that you bell.

    And you’re a reactionary who obviously cannot read properly. If you’d read anything I’ve said you would understand what I mean.

    Anyone who doesn’t agree with you is a ‘homophobe’, oh give it a
    rest!

    “The idea of gay porn lieing round, children seing Queer people having sex and so on and so forth…”

    I don’t want that to happen…..your point is what exactly? How is that bad?

    Whether I sleep around or not is none of your business, but even if I didn’t, how is that ‘shoving my sexuality in other people’s faces’? That’s an oxymoron if ever I’ve heard one!

    You just don’t make any sense: ‘HOMOPHYOBE’- you can’t even spell, I think you need to calm yourself :)

    You know what I think, I think you’re a LESBOPHOBE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  57. And you know what ‘otherone’, I’m not talking about ‘cruising’ if it is genuinely in a remote pace in the middle of nowhere-that doesn’t bother me one iota.

    I’m talking about parks where people actually go.

  58. @ Lezabella
    No, this is not down to the difference between lesbians and gay men. I agree with you on this. Sex in public is wrong because people find it upsetting to see it and do not want to see it, especially if they have children with them. It is not a gay issue- the same standards apply to gay and straight. No one would start having sex infront of a school playground, so why do it in a public place where children might walk onto view? Also the littering is illegal and unpleasant.

    To pick up on thetherone’s example, I would say that smelling ethnic cooking is hardly going to be disturbing for a child, but being confronted by two adults having sex is not something you would want to confront them with.

    Persoanlly I feel opporessed and upset by Theotherone and Matt telling me that as a gay man I have to act in a certain way. What about my freedom to do as I please? I am a married gay man in a decade-long monogamous relationship and I REALLY object to being called heteronormative. It is wrong to say that straight people should behave in one way and gay people in another. I am not aping heterosexuality by being in love with my husband and not wanting to have sex with other people.

    People should be able to form the relationships they are happy with without being forced into a particular mould. Also, as Lezabella intimated, it is a fairly androcentric thing to say, as you don’t really get lesbians cruising etc. I fully support anyone’s rights to be single, promiscuous, polyamorous, to be in an open relationship, or whatever situation they want to be in, but heterosexuals DO NOT have the monopoly on monogamy.

    True, some people, for whatever reason, might feel the need to use cruising grounds. There’s nothing wrong or illegal with going somewhere to meet people- but take the sex private, if people really have no where else to go they can find somewhere where they are confident they will not be seen, and don’t leave litter- that’s gross, environmentally irresponsible and uglifies nature.

  59. Here’s a joke to lighten the mood:

    David Beckham is celebrating; “43 days, 43 days!” he shouts happilly.

    Posh asks him why hes celebrating.
    He answers “Well babe, I’ve done this jigsaw in only 43 days.”

    “And that’s good?” asks Posh.
    “You bet ” says David.”It says 3 to 6 years on the box.”

    Hmm, is that tumbleweed I see rolling around infront of me?!

  60. Thanks Tony.

    I didn’t mean any harm in what I said, I just dont think people having sex in a public place where people or children may go is right or good.

  61. Also, if an animal like a fox ate a condom it could actually cause an intususseption and kill it. Just think of that lactating vixen dying a slow and painful death while her cubs wait in hope in their den starving to death. OK, I know I am over-egging here, but littering in nature is bad bad bad.

  62. Lezabella asks: “And if anyone can explain to me WHY this still happens in this day and age then please, go ahead!”

    Again, I can only judge by the cross-section of people I observed while touring these places with a social worker, decades ago. But many of the cruisers were men who would normally identify as “straight” in other contexts of their lives. Others were marginal gays excluded from the “scene” by their lack of money, or their age, and/or poor personal presentation or social skills. But there were also some “ordinary” gay men, who would also been seen in the nightclubs etc. It’s a rich tapestry.

    I think Matt and theotherone have to accept that in regard to most major values and lifestyle decisions, most gays and lesbians really do just want to “ape the hets”. And there’s nothing necessarily wrong with that. Most of us are brought up in conservative hetero households and we fairly quickly end up wanting what our parents wanted in life. For many gays, accommodating their sexuality really does just mean substituting same sex for the other, and then leading the nearest approximation of a straight lifestyle they can achieve.

    But it would be wrong to pretend that this attitude alone can be expected to inform a homo sociopolitical perspective, with all of the responsibilities of a “social umbrella” embracing the diversity of homosexualities out there, some of which are far removed from hetero norms. I sometimes wish that those queers who find it hard to tolerate the queerer aspects of queerdom would simply shrug their shoulders and move on, instead of adding their voices to the barrage of straight condemnation.

  63. the other half 13 Jul 2009, 9:11pm

    my god tony, I never ment to opress you, i didn’t mean to say that you should not be able to love the way you see fit.

    Oh wait a minute – THAT’S WHAT YOU SAID.

    Let me put this point to you once more: you may want a monogomis, lights off to have sex lifestyle but some people do not and it is not your place to tell them they can’t. You an Les make so much of Children seeing people having sex but the problem is that Cruising Grounds are well known, people don’t take children there because they know they’re cruising grounds. Problem number one solved…

    Oh but I can’t take little Jenny/ Johnie to the park because men are having sex! Well just go to another park. Thias argument can be trurned on it’s head as follows: I don’t want to see people of ‘the same sex’ kissing therefore I can’t go to Queer pubs therefore my freedom to go to a pub which happens to be Queer is limited therefore there should be no Queer pubs. Problem number two solved…

    Littering is always bad and I most defenarly do not condon that. Problem number three solved…

    Now Les: you’re a monogomis Dyke as I am but just because I olny want to have sex with one person and onmly want to do it in private does not mean I’d stop someone going to a ‘Swinger’s’ party. Likewise the idea that because I resist you forcing your morality on others (the ‘forcing your sexuality down other people’s throats’ line – try to understand humour my dear) does not mean I’m ‘Lesbianphobic’ or ‘Androcentred.’ Tell me Leas: how much of your time is given over to Activism? I am an activist for Lesbian Rights, Feminism, Trans Rights…and if there’s one thing I’ve learned it’s not to try to force my viewpoints on others. This, alas, is something you are unable to understand.

  64. the other half 13 Jul 2009, 9:13pm

    Nikolas: I do acept that most Queer people want a onepartnerforeternaty lifestyle – I know this as I am one of the people desiring tyhis I just don’t condem people who don’t want this

  65. @ the other half, or what ever name you are using now…
    I’m interested to know why you would send a message acusing me of saying that people should not be able to love in certain ways. I think you need to actually read people’s messages before spouting off. I actually said “I fully support anyone’s rights to be… etc etc” So please engage your brain before you start twithcing your fingers over the keyboard.

    And as a tax-payer who has paid for access to my local park why should I be told I can’t go there with my child and I have to go and find another one because people want to use it for dogging or crusing or whatever?

    Why not just let people pay to go into fenced off cruising areas? A small fee would cover litter picking and provision of free condoms and lube…

  66. theotherone 14 Jul 2009, 2:32am

    I supose everyone has to pay for the right to be gay…

  67. Hmmm so you didn’t like my David Beckham joke then?….OK

    Nikolas- thankyou for your explanation. I kind of had an idea of what you would say and you have just confirmed it. I do have sympathy for some of these men but I still think other ways would be better…..even for their own bloody safety! “I sometimes wish that those queers who find it hard to tolerate the queerer aspects of queerdom would simply shrug their shoulders and move on, instead of adding their voices to the barrage of straight condemnation.” Ok I also see your point here, but my issue is in a public place, I have actually drove to a beauty spot in Liverpool to watch the sun set over the Mersey with my girlfriend only to see random men pull up right next to us, stare at us (in a whole empty park!) and flash their lights at us. We drove straight away! I later found it was a ‘dogging site’. That sort of thing is what annoys me – if it disrupts other people, or in our case intimidates people. I’m now aware this was a ‘dogging’ spot but I see ‘dogging’ and ‘cruising’ in the same way.

    otherone/half/twopintsandahalf/-

    “lights off to have sex lifestyle” – Says who exactly? Why are you making that assumption? You don’t know me, my girlfriend or our sexual habits so I’d appreciate it if you don’t say stupid things like that.

    “Well just go to another park” – Why the hell should I??? One of my favourite parks in Liverpool, where I spent a lot of time playing as a kid, Botanic Gardens, is now nicknamed ‘Bummer’s Woods’ because it’s a crusing ground. It’s a well-known public park, not some field in the middle of bloody nowhere!

    “I don’t want to see people of ‘the same sex’ kissing therefore I can’t go to Queer pubs therefore ” – that’s not ‘turning it on it’s head’, that’s manipulating and twisting the situation into something completely different, people kissing, and people having sex are two different things. People of the same-sex kissing doesn’t bother me, I’m a lesbian and do a hell of a lot of it myself. That ‘comparison’ was extremely flawed.

    Calling you a ‘LESBOPHOBE’ was a joke, maybe you should also try ‘humour’ eh sweetcheeks?

    “does not mean I’d stop someone going to a ‘Swinger’s’ party”- Neither do I. Listen carefully, I don’t know how many times I have to say this – I don’t care what people do, as long as it’s in private. Get it? It’s about dignity and respect. A public park is not somewhere to go to have sex, unless you’re a really disadvantaged person as Nikolas stated (which they all aren’t), and even then, a public park full of people wouldn’t be right. For them or the other people.

    I’m not tyring to force my viewpoint on others, I am simply arguing my corner, as you have been the whole time.

    “Tell me Leas: how much of your time is given over to Activism? I am an activist for Lesbian Rights, Feminism, Trans Rights” – It’s nice that you care but I’m really not getting into a ‘my gay dick’s bigger than your gay dick’ argument. Any work I do is not solely homosexual-related. I care about a lot of things. Feminism is also a cause I favour, along with animal rights and equal rights for women in poorer countries (which is extremely hard, when many of these mainly African countries have Islam as their religion)

    Out of curiosity what sort of activism do you do?

  68. Whether dogging or cruising in my opinion both are socially unacceptable especially when it take place on someones private land.Why should someone who pays their way in life have to clean up the mess? Who exactly makes the decision as to where these sites should be? I feelvery sorry for the partners of anyone who is unaware that their health has been put at risk which is what cruising does. Does anyone know how much money we pay out on the NHS to treat sexually transmitted diseases and HIV caused by casual sex? It seems a huge waste to me when all people need to is exercise a little self-discipline and try setting an example to younger people. This entire argument boils down to how selfish a society we have become.

    I do find it quite ironic that the very men “outraged” at having their photos put on one website (fully clothed) are more than happy to flaunt themselves in on other websites sporting ladies underwear!

  69. @ lezabella … well you certanally lost it … in every sense of the word .. lost your cool. lost the thread of the descussion and in doing so (in my humble view) lost what ever point you made in t he first place ..

    I think ‘cruising’ is foul if it’s in a public place, but why is there not an anti-’dogging’ site against straight people too?”

    So yes I’m against people having sex in public, there’s no need, atall.

    And you know what ‘otherone’, I’m not talking about ‘cruising’ if it is genuinely in a remote pace in the middle of nowhere-that doesn’t bother me one iota.

    I’m talking about parks where people actually go.

  70. make your mind up girl … you either think it is foul and theirs no need for it at all ..
    OR
    its ok if its in a remote place in the middle or nowhere

    please feel free to be as vocal on this as you have been on all the other comments … :)

    if you are happy with your lifestyle .. great .. but who are you to tell me or anyone else that i have change to live the same lifestyle as yours wheather i want to or not .. ?? how happy would you be if i told you that the way you live your life was not correct and you have to change it to one that i chose for you ??

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