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‘Come out, it’s got to be done’ Ian McKellen tells closeted gays

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  1. Nazi bumhole eater 23 Jun 2009, 4:17pm

    Come out, come out!! I am proud I like to feast on ze hard hairy bumhole. Ze section 29 vill make ze bumhole feasting a part of the curriculum. Victory shall be ours!!Long live ze rimming!

  2. Simon Murphy 23 Jun 2009, 4:26pm

    I think this is a generational thing. I don’t imagine there are many people under the age of 30 still in the closet. I think there are still closeted teenagers but the vast majority of gay people these days come out by the time they are in their early 20’s. The only exception I can really think of is the members of cults like islam and catholicism who have been forcefed a diet of hatred by their cult.

  3. @Simon There are hundreds of thousands of gays who have not come out yet, but the coming out process is on going. I am on a few gay forums where this issue is discussed many times by frightened gays who are petrified about even letting their parents know. About 200,000 American school students of varying ages are homophobed some with physical violence and even death. A very big majority of these students do not know that they are infact gay but portay all the physical characteristics of sterotypical gay behaviour as a natural instinct. Sir Ian is right. It is vitally important that all gays come out and I for one try to help as many closetted gays as possible that I know and some that I don’t know too well, come out. I understand that you are making a sweeping generalisation but at grass roots level there are still thousands of us that need help in coming to terms and being comfortable with being gay. It is going to take a little time yet for them to have the courage and fearless determintation to take that wonderful step forward and come out. Legislation is being put into place but there are still unsafe and grey areas that need to be addressed and these are being addressed. I fully support Sir Ian and what he has said and would like to add my own voice to his and say come out the time is just about right to do so. Don’t be afraid you have a wonderful gay community to help you. Love you guys.

  4. Brian Burton 23 Jun 2009, 5:12pm

    I do not think there is anyone left of any consiquence to come out except Prince Edward mayby?

  5. Well it’s high time sports stars were able to be open. That will be a major challenge. But I think the time is right.

  6. I agree with Rich. “Coming out” is not just about public acceptance, it is also about understanding yourself. I was 32 before I figured it out. It wasn’t that I was concerned I would be lambasted, or ignored, or even attacked. It’s just I needed to know myself.

    A lot of this was based on the perceived image of what “gay” was all about – in my day, gay men were either mincing queens such as John Inman, or the “Tom of Finland” stereotype in leather chaps and big moustaches. Based on that I thought “Well, I’m neither of those, so I cant be gay” – It’s only when I met up with a fantastic bunch of guys called London Friend that I came to terms with it.

    I think the whole public face of homosexuality seriously needs a revamp, which is why I fight so strongly on here against the right-on PC type. I know everyone should be allowed to be what they are, but it’s always the mouthy extrovert ones that are ever really seen. The average poof-in-the-street is never seen or acknowledged, and its about time they did. I am sick and tired of feather boas and leather caps, screaming bottle blonde queens and disco divas.
    Where are all the ‘ordinary gay guys’? I know they are out there in their masses, but until they stand up, others are unlikely to come out for fear of being branded like the general public perceives us.

  7. Surely that’s the point – if more people come out as gay, the more ‘accepted’ we will be as straights will see we are more or less the same as them, ‘cept we like sleeping with the same sex? I too don’t fit into the Tom of Finland or Disco Queen mould, and found it difficult coming out, until I did and found loads of other ‘normal’ gay guys out there. I love the fact that the ‘Toms and fairies’ are there though, imagine a Pride march with only boring me types in it??
    I enjoy Pride though and do see loads of ‘normal’ gay guys/groups. I do think that just living ‘normal’ (hate that!) lives as gay guys/couples can go a long way to educate people to the fact that we are, on the whole just the same as them! I have recently changed jobs, and am as far as I know the ‘only gay at work’ – out from day one, just as ‘me’.
    However, I don’t want to be tolerated – rather accepted – just as I suppose straight people who don’t fit into the straight stereotype do – eg, Goths, punks or which ever group the general public like to brand as ‘different’

  8. RobN: “Well, I’m neither of those, so I cant be gay”

    Oh, that so rings a bell for me. It might sound stupid to other people who had more experience of meeting a variety of different LGBT people, but the only lesbians I’d ever met were very different from me, and even after actively looking for more to try to be sure about what I was, I still thought that I couldn’t be one because I somehow didn’t fit in.

    I wish I’d known then what I know now.

  9. Brian Burton 23 Jun 2009, 9:50pm

    I read through your very interesting post and I think I am gaining a little more understanding of RobN. When you thought you are ‘none of these’ you should have also thought: No, not one of these, but I am my own person (not I can’t be Gay) Trouble is, I and other unfortunates, caught the sharpe edge of your tounge and did not know there was a nicer guy inside, waiting to get out. I have always been told ‘you reap what you sow.’ Sow the wind and reap the wirlwind. Personally, I’ve never sowed, just tried to be happy with my lot.

  10. Pete & Michael 23 Jun 2009, 9:57pm

    ”Come Out,Come Out, Wherever you are”, If Harvey Milk had’nt been murdered in San Francisco, America would have been a better place for gay people today. He asked for gay people to come out the closet and vote for him, and the gay people did. What does that say for us in the UK?

  11. Although I agree that coming out is important, unfortuantely living in a world which is predominantly and assumptively heterosexual I feel means that coming out is not a one off event.

    Coming out surely is an ongoing process in the face of the assumption that ever one is heterosexual, and from which one needs to differenatiate ones self. Perhaps Mckellen is pointing out that we need to start embracing with this process sooner than later.

    Since I do not personally have an obivious gay persona, therefore coming out is very important in new situations. Since I am often asssumed to be heterosexual, unless I challange this I often begin to feel shackeled and opresssed by an assumed sexual orientation which is not mine.

  12. I have recently come out to most of my family members. My mum figured it out a couple of years ago but forbid me to tell anyone else in my family as she thought it was a phase. She then decided, without informing me, to tell my sisters and step dad. Although I realise she thought she was making things easier for me, I do wish I’d have been able to tell them myself. She has since also outed me to aunts and uncles. I am now unsure of who knows and who doesn’t, which I often find leads to some difficult situations. I myself, have never really felt uncomfortable being gay, as a large number of my friends who I went to school with came out as being gay. That was when I began my own journey and realisation of who I am. I am now a very out and proud lesbian and I think that others should come out also. It is a liberating experience, but it is also to be thick skinned and make sure you are prepared to deal with people who are not accepting. Good luck to anyone who is thinking of coming out and I wish you all the best!

  13. Mihangel apYrs 24 Jun 2009, 7:24am

    some of us ordinary poofs in the street are also the ones sitting in meetings asking “what about the gays” when employment policies are being decided by our employers.

    Am I PC, or merely a mouthy guy who won’t take being marginalised, but wants to ensure that everyone beenfits from enlightened working conditions (among other things).

    I was luckY: at 20 I fell in with guys from the “Campaign for Homosexual Equality” and some have been friends for 35 years: at that time it ranged from a leather guy to a stereotypical hairdresser – I had no end of role models!!

  14. david skinner 24 Jun 2009, 8:18am

    Everyone here is signed up to be non – discriminatory. Would it therefore be natural for me think that the following entry would be tolerated and included? Or would that be unnatural? I am therefore going to be courageous and come out, as they say, with this question:

    Ian Mckellen read out the poem “The Love That Dares To Speak Its Name,” by James Kirkup, in a restaurant off the Tottenham Court Road, during the Sod Off God Party, last summer, when the blasphemy laws were repealed. Is this what many of you here describe as ordinary homosexual behaviour? Is this what our children should accept as healthy and normal? Is this the liberating experience that Mckellen so obviously thinks will usher in the New Jerusalem?

    The Love That Dares To Speak Its Name

    By James Kirkup

    As they took him from the cross
    I, the centurion, took him in my arms-
    the tough lean body
    of a man no longer young,
    beardless, breathless,
    but well hung.

    He was still warm.
    While they prepared the tomb
    I kept guard over him.
    His mother and the Magdalen
    had gone to fetch clean linen
    to shroud his nakedness.

    I was alone with him.
    For the last time
    I kissed his mouth. My tongue
    found his, bitter with death.
    I licked his wound-
    the blood was harsh

    For the last time
    I laid my lips around the tip
    of that great cock, the instrument
    of our salvation, our eternal joy.
    The shaft, still throbbed, anointed
    with death’s final ejaculation.

    I knew he’d had it off with other men-
    with Herod’s guards, with Pontius Pilate,
    With John the Baptist, with Paul of Tarsus
    with foxy Judas, a great kisser, with
    the rest of the Twelve, together and apart.
    He loved all men, body, soul and spirit – even me.

    So now I took off my uniform, and, naked,
    lay together with him in his desolation,
    caressing every shadow of his cooling flesh,
    hugging him and trying to warm him back to life.
    Slowly the fire in his thighs went out,
    while I grew hotter with unearthly love.

    It was the only way I knew to speak our love’s proud name,
    to tell him of my long devotion, my desire, my dread-
    something we had never talked about. My spear, wet with blood,
    his dear, broken body all open wounds,
    and in each wound his side, his back,
    his mouth – I came and came and came

    as if each coming was my last.
    And then the miracle possessed us.
    I felt him enter into me, and fiercely spend
    his spirit’s final seed within my hole, my soul,
    pulse upon pulse, unto the ends of the earth-
    he crucified me with him into kingdom come.

    -This is the passionate and blissful crucifixion
    same-sex lovers suffer, patiently and gladly.
    They inflict these loving injuries of joy and grace
    one upon the other, till they die of lust and pain
    within the horny paradise of one another’s limbs,
    with one voice cry to heaven in a last divine release.

    Then lie long together, peacefully entwined, with hope
    of resurrection, as we did, on that green hill far away.
    But before we rose again, they came and took him from me.

    They knew what we had done, but felt
    no shame or anger. Rather they were glad for us,
    and blessed us, as would he, who loved all men.

    And after three long, lonely days, like years,
    in which I roamed the gardens of my grief
    seeking for him, my one friend who had gone from me,
    he rose from sleep, at dawn, and showed himself to me before
    all others. And took me to him with the love that now forever dares to speak
    its name.

  15. Well, Skinner, its not “natural” to believe that demons cause schizophrenia, but you have clearly stated that you do believe this.

    I’m assuming you have then, “come out” as a sufferer of mental health issues?

  16. I see no issue about this poem. So what’s the issue? Who said art had to be clean and sterile, and heed your small minded religious sensibilities? Does it offend you? Again, so what, you’re easily offended.

    Why did you read it then?

    Then again, why are you on a gay site if you don’t “like” gays and are “ex-gay”?

    “Without freedom, no art; art lives only on the restraints it imposes on itself, and dies of all others” (Albert Camus)

  17. Nice poem david. Pretty harmless stuff. Since god does not exist, who is being discriminated against? No one forced you to read it, or attend.

  18. Rod Brandauer 24 Jun 2009, 8:51am

    “Is this what many of you here describe as ordinary homosexual behaviour?”


    Its described as ordinary freedom of speech behaviour.

    Freedom to criticise religion, freedom of thought, and comment #15 just said, freedom of artist expression.

    Its a democracy we live in, not a religious police state.

    So f*ckoff back to the pit your crawled out of Skinner, you disgust me with your nazi “Entartete Kunst” approach. (Look that up, and you’ll learn what a cretin you are demonstrating your astounding lack of awareness in here)

  19. You need to read more poetry, David. I’m sure you’ve posted that one before – or at least someone very like you has. You must be very fond of it.

  20. Rod, well said. But I doubt David would appreciate or understand the reference to “Entartete Kunst”… “Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it”, I’m afraid applies to him more than most. And David has demonstrated a staggering lack of willingness to learn anything other than the dogma of his silly prejudices.

    Stupidity needs a god to believe in, it seems.

  21. P.S. I love the poem!

  22. david skinner 24 Jun 2009, 9:40am

    According to Ian Mckellen, I , as a someone who is drawn to the opposite sex, am identified as a heterosexual or heterophile. According to him I have no choice in this – I yam what I yam. I cannot, unless I was born a bi-, tri- or quadruple- sexual also be a homosexual or homophile. According the laws of antithesis I am therefore and can never be homosexual; I must therefore be a homophobe. I have according to Ian Mckellen no choice in this; this is the way I was born. I am genetically wired to be homophobic. But he is also a bigoted heterophobe – in the philosophical sense – because he rejects complementarity and antithesis. ‘Hetero’ merely means different. He has a hatred of categories, differentiation, of legitimate discrimination – even of discretion. To him everything must be the same, in a totalitarian Marxist sense, where there is not even allowed political dissent or difference. Welcome oppression.

    Though attracted to the feminine and the female I also, from time to time, suffer from unwanted sexual attractions – for instance when I look on a woman who is not my wife, in a lustful way. Are there times, therefore, when the homosexual in a stable relationship with another man must resist unwanted sexual attraction towards men who are not his partner? Or is part of “coming out,” as Mckellen would say, accepting that being gay is also to be promiscuous, like Barrie Drewitt and Tony Barlow
    Is the behaviour of Janet Jenkins, with regard lisa and her little daughter Isabella Miller, also healthy and normal?

  23. Who but a slave, devoid of self worth, wants god and Heaven to be true? Who wants his thoughts to be read constantly, ready to be convicted at any time of thought crime? A place like heaven already exists on Earth, in North Korea, where people worship the Great Leader and his son the Dear leader. But at least you can escape there by dying.

    Dawkins put is wonderfully in the God Delusion, p51: “The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully.”

    The God Sod Off party is a light hearted way of abolishing totalitarianism. Many freedom fighters in Tehran right now, are trying to do just that.

    Ther event sounds almost as good as listening to a talk by Christopher Hitchens, whose lecturesd are hilarious and to the point. I recommend you see him live if ever you get the chance:

    youtube .com/watch?v=0VVYtJhbJHI

  24. Who but a slave, devoid of self worth, wants god and Heaven to be true? Who wants his thoughts to be read constantly, ready to be convicted at any time of thought crime? A place like heaven already exists on Earth, in North Korea, where people worship the Great Leader and his son the Dear leader. But at least you can escape there by dying.

    Dawkins put is wonderfully in the God Delusion, p51: “The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully.”

    The God Sod Off party is a light hearted way of abolishing totalitarianism. Many freedom fighters in Tehran right now, are trying to do just that.

    Ther event sounds almost as good as listening to a talk by Christopher Hitchens, whose lectures are hilarious and to the point. I recommend you see him live if ever you get the chance:

    youtube .com/watch?v=0VVYtJhbJHI

  25. Simon Murphy 24 Jun 2009, 10:29am

    While I do believe that coming out is important I still maintain that with the exception of the religious victims and teenagers the issue of coming out isn’t as scary as it was before.

    Ian McKellen is 70 now. He came of age in an era where homosexuality was illegal and not accepted. For him the process of coming out (even though he was almost 50) was a very difficult, political act as for his generation staying in the closet and lying about his sexual orientation was a perfectly valid option.

    These days I think the most difficult are to be in is secondary school where many teenagers remain in the closet until they have finished school as coming out in an environment like a school is still a terrifying thing to do. But the idea of staying in the closet forever is largely a thing of the past for people under the age of 35. They have grown up in a society where gay people are more visible; have more rights; and are not as self-concious about their sexuality as an older generation.

    I like Ian McKellen but I think he should focus on encrouaging older gay people to come out as by and large the younger generation are already doing it.

  26. “According to Ian Mckellen, I , as a someone who is drawn to the opposite sex, am identified as a heterosexual or heterophile. According to him I have no choice in this”

    Are you saying you DO have a choice in your sexuality?

  27. david skinner: “According the laws of antithesis I am therefore and can never be homosexual; I must therefore be a homophobe. I have according to Ian Mckellen no choice in this; this is the way I was born. I am genetically wired to be homophobic.”

    The ‘logic’ of this escapes me. You’re saying that because you’re heterosexual that makes you homophobic?? Crap. That’s like saying that being born white makes you hate Asian people. Of course, it bloody doesn’t. Most of my friends are heterosexual, but none of them are homophobic.

    When exactly did god tell you to go around persecuting people who are different to you?

    I didn’t want to post a poem, but here’s a quote for you:

    “I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires.”

    Susan B. Anthony

  28. I agree with Simon. And particularly, it’s high time people in sport took that step. I think it’s actually going to be less difficult than it seems.

    Anyone who does dish out homophobic abuse is likely to end up banished from spectating, and possibly a criminal record.

  29. Brian Burton 24 Jun 2009, 1:44pm

    I cannot belive that NUTTER Skinner is still trying to envegal his paranoid views on us. He’s such a perve, he really gets his sexual kicks whilst posting on these threads.

  30. Simon Murphy 24 Jun 2009, 4:38pm

    David Skinner – as a self-proclaimed christian do you believe in slavery and wifebeating or wife-murder? The bible justifies this? Do you accept the bible as the word of god? If you do then do you accept that your god is an evil old f*ck?

  31. David Skinner, I’ve got a suggestion for you.

    Try going on to a straight web-site and trying to persuade the readers and bloggers on there that they all ought to be gay. Of course, your efforts will meet with as little success as you efforts on here, but you might fancy it just for the sake of a bit of variety.

  32. It is still very important for people to come out. Most teachers are in the closet at work and this deprives young gay people of important role models. There are people who choose not to be out to older relatives, when evidence shows that if they did these people would probably change their attitudes and this would have a political knock-on as they would then find homophobic polititians and policies less palatable. Lots of gay people are not 100% out.

    People often assume I am straight because I have long hair and wear a wedding ring, but if the question comes up I will always put people right.

  33. david skinner 24 Jun 2009, 11:33pm

    There seems to be a problem here. On the one hand there seems to be the desire not to be stereotypically gay – but instead to look like regular, normal guys, like the rest of the 98- 99% heterosexual population, but then there is the desire to be recognised as a distinct entity, in the same way that one would recognise a black man at a hundred paces. So how do gays you come out? How are they to be noticed without anyone noticing? How, apart from telling us, are we to know, without our knowing that we know, we know that we know, that someone is gay ?

    For a man to walk about hand in hand with another man is going to be noticed, certainly in Frinton on Sea, unless you can persuade all the men in Frinton to walk about hand in hand.- only then would we not know who was bent and who was straight. As for being accepted, rather being tolerated, as Goths and punks apparently are, Goths and punks do not identify themselves biologically as a distinct species. They did not wake up one morning and discover that they are Goths – or punks. Neither do they make special claims or try to differentiate themselves from the rest of society by having Goth only Olympic games, goth- only restaurants, clubs, hotels, Goth Sunday at London Zoo, London Goth Parade, Goth history month, Goth MPs. Nor do they, when accused of breaking the law, automatically appeal for special dispensation: “ that’s Gothphobic hatred.”

    Rod Brandauer (17), You were doing quite well when you cried “Freedom of speech behaviour. Freedom to criticise religion, freedom of thought, freedom of artist expression. Its a democracy we live in, not a religious police state.”
    Pity that you spoilt it with “So f*ckoff back to the pit your crawled out of Skinner.”
    So it is freedom of speech for you but not for me .
    It is OK for Mckellen to incite Christophobic hatred with his recitation and it is OK for speech hatred to be directed at me personally on the Pink News, but for me to make the slightest suggestion that homosexual behaviour is wrong is going to mean that the Homosexual Thought Police, or the Association of Gay Police are indeed shortly going to be knocking on my door at 4.00 am.

    Tom Paine (32)
    You describe exactly the situation in Britain at the moment. Gordon Brown, the Eagle sisters, Peter Mandelson, Chris Brayant, Ben Bradshaw, Lord Chris Smith, Ben Summerskill and Sir Trevor Phillips, the Equality and Human Rights Commissioner, are already reading our minds, and controlling our consciences. Soon with clause 61 of the Coroners and Justice Bill they will convict us with seven year prison sentence for not going into standing ovation mode for all things homosexual.
    “Jealous, proud, petty, unjust, unforgiving, control-freak; vindictive, misogynistic, Christianophobic, heterophobic, infanticidal (200, 000 babies aborted in Britain alone each year), megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully” describes exactly all those who subscribe to London Pride and the Stonewall Awards evening.
    The God Sod Off party is indeed a light hearted way of introducing homosexual totalitarianism.

  34. “On the one hand there seems to be the desire not to be stereotypically gay – but instead to look like regular, normal guys”

    Only in your mind. We are normal guys. What isn’t normal is believing demons cause schizophrenia, like you. What isn’t normal is cruising a gay site when you’re supposed to be “straight”, like you. What isn’t normal is trying to pretend to be “ex-gay”, like you. See the difference now? We’re normal, you’re a nut.

    “like the rest of the 98- 99%”

    This number is proven to be a lie. One of your lies. As you don’t believe in science, then don’t quote numbers you can’t explain. It makes you look stupid. And god knows, you don’t need more of that, you know what I’m saying?

    “So how do gays you come out?”

    You tell me, how did you become “ex-gay”? Does it really make you happier? Happy enough to cruise a gay site for cheep thrills? Yeah, right, you’re just kidding yourself, not us…

    “So it is freedom of speech for you but not for me”

    Freedom of speech, you have. That’s completely separate from being an idiot. We don’t agree with you or your silly statements. You have no proof or evidence of any of your statements. Ergo, you’re an idiot. See the difference now between free speech and your being an idiot?

    “The God Sod Off party is indeed a light hearted way of introducing homosexual totalitarianism.”

    Excellent. I can’t wait until we take over the world. Then we’ll hunt down you so-called “ex-gays” and torch you for heresy against nature, like the scum you are…. oh, no wait, that’s that christians! My bad. Got all “religious” there for a moment.

    Why are you not on medication now, David? Surely you at least realise that you need some.

  35. Oh, and long live clause 61!!!!!! Let the hunt begin! Hurrah!

  36. david skinner 25 Jun 2009, 8:12am

    Will, what never ceases to amaze me is the way the homosexual legions can never stand on their own feet. Not having a true identity of their own, except the mythical one created by Károly Mária Kertbeny and the proselytiser, Alfred Kinsey, they desperately try to identify with any recognised section society. They rub themselves up amongst blacks, the disabled, the bullied, with penguins, sheep and monkeys, Jews in the holocaust and with slavery and minority groups in general. They even have the cheek to demand that we too, the remaining 98% of the population, are so insecure that we too need to identify ourselves – that we are indeed repressed homosexuals or “ex – gays.” I know this will not satisfy you, Will, or deter you from locking the control column as far forward into the dive position as possible, but I am not any of the above, not even he mythical “heterosexual,” invented by the zoologist, Karl Jager. I am but a man, created in the image of God. I invite you also to stand up and be the man God intended you to be.

  37. Will, Post 34 – Perfect!

    David Skinner: “I invite you also to stand up and be the man God intended you to be.”

    Yes, that’s what you don’t like, isn’t it, David? You see, god, if he or she or they exist, made us homosexual. So we ARE being what god intended us to be. That doesn’t fit in with your prejudice, does it, so you have to drone on about sexuality being a choice/lifestyle. Why don’t you get on with your own life and leave other people who happen to be different to you to lead theirs? I’ll answer that for you as you probably won’t. You either have a burning need to hate someone, or you’re more fascinated than you’d like to be by homosexuality and this makes you angry with yourself so you take it out on gay people.

    *Does anyone moderate this thread? I find the earlier bit of DS’s post 36 above offensive. I don’t mind him saying all his religious stuff, but the first bit of that post is foul.

  38. “are so insecure that we too need to identify ourselves”

    And how “secure” are you that you have to trawl a gay site? Do you think we need an identity? I manage over 50 people in an IT company. I hold two science degrees, and I have a wonderful life with my parter, a very affluent life I might add. Do you think for one second that gay is all I am, or all any of us are? That’s what you wan t to think, then that’s fine. You’re the one obsessed, not us.

    Look, lets cut the crap here. We all know the reality. Here’s some home truths for you:-

    – You’re ex-gay. Ex-gay doesn’t exist. Its a lie. Hence you use lies to blur the truth about yourself.
    – Who cares that you think we’re wrong? What are you to us, but an prehistoric insect? This is the sum total of your “power”, a gay website where we laugh at you. What a hero.
    – You refuse to accepts truths, even when proven to you. You are not as smart as the rest of us. Its that bloody simple.
    – All the ranting in the world won’t make you right. It makes you a fool. You’ll change none of us. In fact all you’re doing is galvanising us to wipe you superstitions mental cases off the map. Although with your protestations of “demons”, you’re doing a pretty good on on your own.
    – You’re on the losing track. All the bible quotes in he work might make you feel better, but it wont deny the truth of reality:- gay rights increasing every day. Gay visibility increasing. Failing religious organisations losing people. Gay marriage on the increase. Repeal of “religious” laws. And the trend in our favour is staggering!

    You’re lost in a world you don’t understand, and don’t have the intelligence to even if you wanted to.

    This is the real truth.

    “I am but a man, created in the image of God.”

    Than god must be one stupid fuck, is you’re his image.

  39. david skinner 25 Jun 2009, 9:04am

    Iris, I would be only too pleased to get back to tending my “allotment” but the gays are trashing it. When Ben Summerskill demands that I say that right is wrong and true is false, or that left is right, it is very much my business – especially if it is going to destroy my kids and grandchildren. Toleration of Homosexual behaviour becomes intolerable when I and my family are forced to bow to the idolatry of Darwinian pantheism (mother Nature with a capital ‘N‘) and Hegelian Marxist politics of which “homosexuality” is but the Trojan horse. Having laid claim to children in care, they now lay claim to indoctrinating our four and five years olds and soon will lay claim to marriage and the right to discard it completely. If you do not think that this is all going to end in anarchy, or that the British nation, if it ever it wakes up, is not going respond in the appropriate manner (No – I am not a member of the BNP), before the Muslims do, you are in for a very rude awakening. On the question of being offended, the Truth is always offensive to those who try to hide from it. “Come out” I say but into the light of day.

  40. Go and make those disgusting remarks to the mother of Michael Causer, David Skinner.

    This violent attack began after one of the assailants went through Michael Causer’s mobile phone pictures. Michael was dragged from his bed by his ankles as he slept. A hardback book over the head of Michael, so hard, the book split in two, leaving a thin red line on Michael’s head. One of the attackers was heard to say “‘He’s a little queer, he deserves it’. There followed frenzied kicks and punches to Michael’s head and upper body, while shouting “You little queer faggot” – possibly the last words Michael heard. Then, after using a cigarette lighter to burn hairs on his leg, and attempts to rip his body piercings out, Causer, now unconscious and bleeding from the ears, nose and mouth, was dragged out and dumped in the street. On August 2nd, the life support machine was turned off.

    Or the attack on ‘Olly’ outside a Shoreditch pub, now paralysed as a result. Set upon by a gang of thugs FOR NO OTHER REASON THAN BECAUSE HE WAS GAY. Bullying of gay teenagers at school is rife. Go ask any inner city school teacher.

    The difference between a gay kid being bullied and a black, Jew, disabled, Muslim, is that they and all other minority groups can talk about it. Stonewall for people like this is literally a lifesaver.

    To make light of the living hell that these kids go through in the way you do is a fucking disgrace. Self-obsessed, and wallowing in imagined persecution, because you can’t even stand criticism like an adult. Really, you have no idea what persecution is.

  41. “idolatry of Darwinian pantheism”????

    Please, do you know how stupid you sound? Creationism is a belief with zero facts behind it. Evolution is fact. Fact wins over a belief.

    Not only are you a homophobe, you’re a disgusting racist too.

    Friedrich Otto Hertz once said, “At the heart of racism is the religious assertion that God made a creative mistake when He brought some people into being”.

    I assume you think you are above god in your assertions as to what’s right and what’s wrong then?

    That’s called delusion. Add a belief in demons, and its called madness.

  42. Will: As so many religious bigots claim “The word of God”, when it is in fact “Their interpretation of what God was supposed to have said”.
    You can read into, distort, cherry-pick or ignore whatever bits you want to get the desired results.

    I wonder why Mr Skinner doesn’t comment on lines such as:

    “Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property.” (Leviticus 25:44-45)

    Funny how that one slipped through the net and isn’t mentioned.

  43. Monkeychops 25 Jun 2009, 10:55am

    Very interesting to read so many coming out stories. Particularly the reasons for/for not doing it – should I do it? If so, who is it important to tell? What are the consequences for me, in my career, in my home, at the mosque/church? It’s a big decision because you can’t go back from it. And you also have to keep coming out for the rest of your life, with every new friendship you make or situation that necessitates your marital status. This is why I have been quite critical of those who try to out people who are clearly not ready, notably a myriad of celebrities, who, I may add, are probably in their late 30s or early 40s and of a generation where they may not have been in a position to come out early in their careers. It’s also wrong of Simon Murphy to say that today there is no excuse not to come out – is that really so? In the UK, I would say it’s pretty ok, but it’s not the same in other parts of the EU or the rest of the world. And every person has a different scenario, level of confidence and maturity.

    RobN’s account is probably more common than we think. How many guys like him would we come across on a night out in the gay ghetto that is Canal Street? Or notice in the supermarket? In our offices? My own situation is similar. Despite the fact that I grew up in the 80s and 90s (which I am grateful for considering how things were just a few years previously), what gay guys did I ever see? Boy George (and other gender benders), Andy Bell, Neil Tennant, Holly Johnson….I didn’t relate to any of that and nor did I fancy them. I fancied men who acted like men – with all the confidence and insouciance that our straight peers tend to have more of than we do when we’re all young. Not questioning themselves insecurely, just getting out and doing whatever it is that drives them. Moreover, these gay guys just brought negative press with them – Boy George had his drug issues, Frankie Goes to Hollywood introduced the world to leather, S&M and debauched sex lives…..not very inspiring.

    Let’s add the fact that a huge proportion of famous gay/bi-man I had heard of suffered from or died from an “AIDS-related illness” (Freddie Mercury, Michael Sundin, Anthony Perkins, Kenny Everett and more). We were not liked at all. There was even legislation to stop us talking about it in schools. Gays on television, again, were camp stereotypes and drag queens to be laughed at and not laughed with (John Inman, Frankie Howerd)…or deeply troubled, suicidal types or those engaging in rather unsavoury behaviour (Kenneth Williams, Justin Fashanu, Dusty Springfield). Or they were lonely and warranted pity because it wasn’t their fault (various soap opera characters). There was no air of having respect for these people. Films? Ditto (Another Country, The Crying Game, For a Lost Soldier), until something like Beautiful Thing came along and I saw a bit more of myself in that than I had in The Fruit Machine, My Own Private Idaho and Priscilla. They may be excellent films, but the range was very narrow – tragedy, queens and more tragedy. All very depressing when you’re trying to convince yourself that it might just be ok to be who you are and looking for some path to follow in life. Four Weddings and a Funeral was probably the only film I saw where gay characters were portrayed as being largely untroubled, integrated and fully accepted amongst a set of friends. Benign, yes a bit, but far better than doom and gloom. That was quite pivotal for me. And then sports stars like Ian Roberts and Martina Navratilova started to eke out the closet, which I personally found more inspiring. There was hope for guys like me.

    Gay marriage, adoption, legal age of consent and equal rights in the workplace were not even on the menu, let along enshrined in legislation. How could I have a life that resembled that of my parents? What aspects of life would I share with my brother when we got older? Where on Earth could I fit in? Would I ever fit in? On the other hand, I played on school sports teams and felt more at home among the guys there in terms of my interests, but I couldn’t join in the banter about which birds I was going to pull at the end of term disco. And they certainly wouldn’t have wanted to hear me harping on about how I’d choose Richard Gere over Julia Roberts any day of the week. Big mental conflict of interest.

    It’s hardly surprising therefore that I grew up not really knowing that I could be a regular guy who wasn’t a howling queen or dying of AIDS and yet STILL be gay. It was only because my parents had a few gay friends who didn’t stand out any more than other guys on the street that I understood what I saw in the media was a very skewed reality. And that life wasn’t a tragedy for every single gay man. Fortunately, I was very aware of different types of people at a young age (having a French mother was obviously quite advantageous from that point of view, especially as I barely spoke English when I started school). I had most things figured out by the time I was 15 and came out as I entered year 11. Without ever having kissed a guy. And, I was completely accepted and I guess that means I don’t feel so much of a need to overcompensate to make up for my difference now. My personal development was not held back to the same extent of many other gay guys, for which I am very grateful. Got the odd ribbing, but no more serious than the ginger or fat kids. And, being well over 6ft tall and broad, it would have been difficult to beat me to a pulp. I bet if I had been camp and into the Spice Girls I would have got hell. It’s not fair obviously, but that’s the reality. Friends from school still say that they would probably still think that the stereotype was not only the norm but the only type of (negative) gay man that existed had they not met me, especially at such an early age. It’s also been a personal philosophy to not end up like the famous gay guys I have mentioned above – another tragic statistic on the log book of life. So far I haven’t, why should I be unhappy? I’m not.

    Ironically, I also think that being not ostensibly gay is a disadvantage in some ways because you can conceal it for much longer. If you are as camp as Christmas, people notice, people ask, people assume (sometimes wrongly). You simply cannot hide it and thus your decision is made for you – you just have to come out and face up to who you are. Which, in the long run, is probably better for you. Sweeping things under the carpet because you can has never been a solution, as we all know too well. Like every other person, there are pros and cons to the way you are – it’s how you use your positive attributes that will get you somewhere.

  44. Yeah, RobN, I agree. They never seem to approach that one, or the fact that eating shellfish is also an “abomination”… makes the bible sound a tad over dramatic, doesn’t it.

  45. david skinner 25 Jun 2009, 11:32am

    Tom Paine, Homosexual rights trump all those of others: the disabled; the elderly and the unborn. There is no one representing the most vulnerable in society, children, on of the Equality and Human Rights Commission. But Ben Summerskill not only leads London Pride but has pride of place around Sir Trevor Phillips table.

    Since the passing of the Sexual Orientation Regulations in 2006 there is nothing for which the LGBT have demanded, that has been denied them. The benefits, rights and status of marriage are practically extended to them; children are handed over into their tender keeping and one only has to accuse them of breaking the speed limit, fraud or in fact any major crime and they cry” homophobia.” Charities are shut down, teachers, magistrates, and foster parents are thrown out of their jobs in order to accommodate their absolute rights to whatever they want. Airlines and banks and Pepsi Cola are falling over themselves to celebrate their sexual activities
    Last year Boris Johnson, the mayor of London, led the London Pride and this year’s parade was rumoured to be led by leader of the Conservative party David Cameron. Today every leading political party not only has gay MPs on every frontbench, but at the heart of power in Downing St and in the House of Lords. Lord Chris Smith who, apart from having HIV, presently controls a major organ of propaganda, the Advertising Standards Agency. Does this really sound like an oppressed and bullied minority?

    As for violence against homosexuals, what do you say to the high incidence of cannibalism amongst gay murderers or the fact that gays murder gays? “A man who killed his former boyfriend by setting him alight has been jailed for 23 years.
    Nadim Kurrimbukus, 25, poured petrol over the head of Charlie Davies and set him alight outside his home in Templedene Avenue, Staines two months after their relationship ended.” Pink News.

    Homosexuality is violence against the natural order and Folsom Street Fair (soon to be in an area near you) is all about sado – masochism. If violence and bullying does increase against gays, it will not be from the Christian community but from the far right sections of society, those whom you are provoking, such as the BNP, and who don’t give a fig for humanity. Maybe you should visit the inside of prison to see how paedophiles and homosexuals are treated by the rest of the inmates. A breakdown in law and order is being created precisely by the disorder of homosexuality. We will all, indeed, reap a terrible whirlwind, that Stonewall will have almost single – handed created. Bring it on.

  46. Monkeychops 25 Jun 2009, 12:08pm

    David – Firstly, gay rights have never trumped any other, they have been and continue to be the last to be administered in our beloved nations across the globe. Perhaps you are just overwhelmed by the media-frenzy documenting our progress in recent years. Doyou feel left out from lack of consideration by the press? Good, now you know how generations of gays have felt until recently. Many laws have been changed, but they have given us equality. Nothing more than anyone else. The right to be treated fairly and to be respected on the same grounds of everyone else. It means people like you in our offices, hospitals, schools and so on do not have the right to force your bigotry down our throats without consequence. Seems fair to me, to others here, our straight friends and to our lawmakers. If it didn’t, these laws wouldn’t exist. You may also be a little upset that as living, breathing human beings with emotions, hobbies, sexual urges and varying intellectual capacities, we are very much contradicting through a wealth of evidence that this invisible, all-dictating God of yours has no basis more reliable than your own meandering fantasies. The bible is a book with no proof of its content, let’s be clear about that. Like Alice in Wonderland or Jemima Puddleduck. It lists varying examples of acts that are illegal today – and the overwhelming majority have naff all to do with sexuality (as expertly highlighted on here by a number of clever individuals). Slavery, mixing clothing of different fabrics and so on. Implausible, old-fashioned and irrelevant.

    Now, this whole S&M business. I’m not an advocate of seeing it in public – or any kind of sexual behaviour (I am universal in that for straight and gay), as is well documented on here and I would agree with you on that. However, what people do in their sex lives outside of public view has sweet FA to do with you, me or the bible. Sex is a human thing, not to be dictated by a god. After all, if he’s not going to be involved in bringing me pleasure in my sex life simply through being non-existent, why should I give him an active role in deciding what I do within it? Stands to reason.

    Gays murdering gays – yes, it does happen. Like men kill their wives. Or wives kill their husbands. And sometimes they like to simmer the cadavre over a medium-flame and ingest the result. See, we do have common ground after all. We are happy to show you that we can be just as wonderful or just as sick and depraved as you heterosexuals. But it’s a murder issue, not a sexuality one.

    As for prisons, paedophiles are both gay and straight and abhorred by all sane people in every community. Homosexuals unwelcome in prisions? So you’ve never heard about prison “wives”? You know where straight men become the bitches to “top dogs”. I would have thought a homosexual would be most welcome if he is able to offer sex.

    And, lastly, as regards our politicians getting ot and supporting us, it’s a recent thing and we are happy to have it. There is obviously a lot of bullying against gay men – from people like you, forcing un-founded religious claims down our throats and trying (unsuccessfully) that we are going against a rule book that we have never chosen and that is overrulled by our democratic, peopl-devised legal system. Your book and your God do not matter to us. And nor do they matter to an increasing number of people.

    However, as an advocate of free speech, I am more than happy for you to come on here and present your views. We’ll just have more experiences and well-founded evidence to contradict your bigotry.

    If I were you, I’d go away and worry far more about chavs and gangs and their influence on society – the knifings, the shootings, the selfish behaviour, the effects of obesity on the NHS etc etc. That is far more damaging for society than having a Rampant Rabbit inserted into your posterior in the privacy of your own home a couple of times a week. By both gays and straights, remember there are plenty of straight guys that like nothing more than having a but plug popped up their arses. Equally, there are gay guys that don’t even like sodomy – did you know that? Of course you didn’t……but I wouldn’t expect someone expressing your views to do so.


    Seriously, this should be a discussion about the importance of coming out and people having willingly given trolls like David Skinner the attention they crave. Why reward him? The only way to deal with trolls is to ignore them. Please do not respond to him. What sort of an impression do you want to give to newcomers to this site, including young poeple just coming out who were attracted by the topic of the thread?

    There is a lot of interesting stuff to say about coming out- people are scared about the negative consequences but in reality the positives so overwhelmingly outway any negatives. Coming out is an amazing, liberating thing that opens all sorts of wonderful doors and opportunities.

  48. “As for violence against homosexuals, what do you say to the high incidence of cannibalism amongst gay murderers or the fact that gays murder gays?”

    What???? Gays have more propensity to be cannibal??? Since when?

    Where is your data for this?

    “A breakdown in law and order is being created precisely by the disorder of homosexuality. ”

    And this, where is your data?

    No data?

    Oh, so it a lie then. You’re a liar, is this it?

  49. david skinner 25 Jun 2009, 12:56pm

    So obviously you have no objection to others who claim to being treated unfairly and respected on the same grounds as everyone else. Paedophiles also claim that they are born as such as you well know there paedophile parties in Holland . “A judge in The Hague said a political party formed by pedophiles could not be banned because it had the same right to exist as any other party and is protected by democratic freedoms. The Brotherly Love, Freedom and Diversity Party (NVD) advocates a cut in the age of consent to 12, from 16, and the legalization of child pornography and sex with animals.

    Also in Germany,booklets from a subsidiary of the German government’s Ministry for Family Affairs encourage parents to sexually massage their children as young as 1 to 3 years of age. Two 40-page booklets entitled “Love, Body and Playing Doctor” by the German Federal Health Education Center (Bundeszentrale für gesundheitliche Aufklärung – BZgA) are aimed at parents – the first addressing children from 1-3 and the other children from 4-6 years of age.
    “Fathers do not devote enough attention to the clitoris and vagina of their daughters. Their caresses too seldom pertain to these regions, while this is the only way the girls can develop a sense of pride in their sex,” reads the booklet regarding 1-3 year olds. The authors rationalize, “The child touches all parts of their father’s body, sometimes arousing him. The father should do the same.”

    Maybe you have no problem with those who claim the right to incestuous, polygamous and polyamorous relationships, either.

    But it does not stop at mere tolerance, it will mean that our children will be coerced into these practices. They will have to conform to the prevailing morality and behaviour. If you think that I and other parents will just stand around and see our children destroyed in this way, you really must living on planet Zogg.

  50. “There is a lot of interesting stuff to say about coming out- people are scared about the negative consequences but in reality the positives so overwhelmingly [outweigh] any negatives. Coming out is an amazing, liberating thing that opens all sorts of wonderful doors and opportunities.”

    Tony is right, of course. It is.

    Life is too short to live in the closet. Actually, that’s the crucial thing about Gay Pride – I recommend anyone to go to an event, you’ll meet lots of people like yourself, new friends – and it will do your self-esteem no end of good.

    The most important thing in life is relationships. If you cannot talk proudly, openly, honestly about the person you love the most, it’s a sham of an existence.

    Personally, I don’t think you even need to say to someone ‘I’m gay’. Doing so is silly, it means you are asking someone’s permission. Coming out is more a change of attitude: one which demands toy to talk about your relationships, hold hands with your partner in the restaurant, ‘just as if’ it were the normal, natural thing to do. Just like Rosa parks sat down on a bus, just as if it were the normal thing to do.

    If people can’t deal with it – then remember the golden rule in life: “Do not care about others any more than they would care about you.”

    And seriously, everyone else can indeed, just fuck off.

  51. “Life is too short to live in the closet”

    Very true, TomPaine. And I agree with what you say about it being an attitude and not necessarily a declaration. It can be better not to make a big song and dance about it.

    But what about young people who are confused, for want of a better word. It’s OK saying that society’s more open now, which is true, but lots of teenagers lack confidence or have low self-esteem. If they’ve never heard or learnt anything about homosexuality in schools or elsewhere, then it can be hard for them. Many teens aren’t just nervous about the reaction of their peers, but they’re also a little unsure about how to process what they’re feeling.

    I don’t think I’ve explained that very well, but I hope some of it made sense. If you think that you ARE something that you know very little about, it doesn’t give you confidence.

    (Tony #47 – wise words. Hope everyone follows them)

  52. “it will mean that our children will be coerced into these practices”

    Prove this.

    No? Statements without proof are simply lies.

    Ergo, you’re a liar.

  53. Iris, “But what about young people who are confused, for want of a better word”

    Yeah, I remember my teen being a tough time. But now, looking back, I wonder why I didn’t come out earlier. Life literally got half as challenging and twice as interesting.

    But I do think times are changing for the better. My kid brother, who is 16 years younger than me was surprised at the age I came out at, he has friends that came out at 15 and 16 and this all seemed perfectly normal to him, he couldn’t really understand why anyone would wait until their twenties. I suppose it does help the family he comes from, and it certainly must be harder if you live in a rural area or have religious nuts in your family who can barely tolerate changing of the years let alone tolerance to anything outside a silly dogma.

    That’s why education in schools is great, it gives younger gays people a better perspective, and lets them see that its okay to challenge the bigots.

    Lets face it, would any of us ever think of going back to the “closeted” days? No, of course not…. no matter how many David Skinners tell us its the fault of “demons”. Tom’s line says it well “Do not care about others any more than they would care about you.”

    And very few people these days care about special needs individuals like the unschooled David Skinner.

  54. Will: “it certainly must be harder if you live in a rural area”

    Oh, definitely. You don’t meet as many people, for a start. I didn’t meet any gay people at all (to my knowledge – maybe they kept it quiet?) in my teens. I took a long time to understand myself because there was no-one to talk to about how I was feeling. That can be very lonely and discouraging. You also get a false picture of what it means to be homosexual. I knew what it was – something to be whispered about and hushed up; something that people Who Were Not Like Us did. I know you’ll probably think I’m stupid for allowing my self-confidence to be affected by what was only a general unspoken atmosphere rather than outspoken homophobia, but the insidousness of that and the damage it can do to your sense of self is huge.

    That’s why I’m passionate about education – for children and teens who may be gay, and for those who definitely aren’t but should understand those who are, so that, in the end, it won’t be a big deal for anyone.

  55. Monkeychops 25 Jun 2009, 3:33pm

    Iris – I totally agree with your point about education, that is the only way you can alter anyone’s impression. In schools as much as through the media (the latter of which has hindered our integration into wider society as much as helping it at times). I was fortunate that despite living in a rural area I didn’t have any problems in terms of attitudes towards me. However, the not knowing anyone else part was ultimately the hardest aspect and I completely identify with you there. The whole sharing feelings, having a quick snog behind the bike sheds and subsequently being able to mature in a normal way was lacking to a certain extent. Or rather it was delayed. I wouldn’t say you were stupid for not being self-confident, it’s one of the least surprising things to happen to gay people. And many others who feel they don’t fit in for various reasons.

    Will – I’m guilty of this too, having let a rant out at David on another thread, but I think you’re (we’re) actually nourishing his very existence right now. The majority of us are on your side and see your views. Don’t reply to him, he’ll go away and you won’t end up having a coronary. Though I am equally admiring of your strength of character in facing up to someone like him. Perhaps you should be the one to introduce these educational measures to our society that you seem so keen on? You’ve obviously got your head screwed on – coming out later hasn’t hindered that part of your character at least :)

  56. You’re right of course, Monkeychops. Its just just too much fun sometimes! :-) Although the expression shooting fish in a barrel doesn’t do talking to Skinner any justice……

    And your complements have made my day!

    And Iris, you’re quite right, the education is the key, whether by schools or by peers. Although ironically, quite a few the teenagers I hung around with back then turned out to be gay too so maybe I wasn’t as “singular” as I thought at the time… and even one particularly homophobic guy, he turned out to be a flamer! Goes to show, me thinks the lady doth protest too much!

  57. Monkeychops 25 Jun 2009, 5:07pm

    Credit where it’s due Will, you’ve made your own day by saying what you did :). And, yeah, I agree, there is a slight kick from annihilating a common and very unjust foe. Though I’m sure he’s enjoyed mass debating with us too (there’s a pun in there somewhere) ;)

  58. Iris raises an interesting point. Teenagers’ feelings run high. (the teenage brain is wired up to the hilt i believe) It’s really important to tell kids not to worry – but if you do turn out to be, being gay is OK, to stamp out bullying and harrassment of people who are gay or perceived to be gay.

    The very worst thing they can be told is ‘its a sin’ etc – a message which teachers are perfectly free to deliver in faith schools. It is a disgrace that children, captives at school, can be abused in this way. And I hope that pupils who do endure that kind of bigotry eventually consider suing their schools.


  59. It’s really worrying that we have so many people these days effectively saying ‘the battle is over, surely everyone is out now, we don’t need gay newspapers’ etc. As in the comments above. You can’t held wondering if they are rather privileged, well-off, young gay men who live on the scene.

    In fact, countless people are still in the closet and face difficulty. I know of gay Somalis in this country who literally fear for their life if they’re discovered.

    I hear young gay men say things like ‘everyone goes to Manchester Pride’. No they don’t. What they mean is their own little clique of fellow gay men who are just like them. 35,000 tickets sold (many to heterosexuals and people outside of the areas) and the population of Greater Manchester alone is 2.4m!

    The tiny out scene-going minority should not be allowed to speak for the majority of LGBT people in this country.

  60. Gary, you’re right. I’d love to know where any comment on here says the ‘battle is over’ when it certainly isn’t. The reason why Pride is so important is precisely because of ethnic minorities, and reactionary religious clerics enforcing their views on their community members, and gevoernments elevating extremists like the muslim council of britain to ‘community leadership’ status.

    Until it’s drummed into everyone that There’s One Law For Everybody, And That’s All There Is To Be Said – (the quote attriubutable to Lord Mansfield on freeing a black man at risk of being sent back into slavery, when slavery was already abolished in the UK, ) then there will be no hope of emancipating our LGBT brothers and sisters from ethnic communities.

    I hope, gary, you will join the fight and join up with the national secular society, at . They tirelessly campaign to shut down the scourge of faith schools for example.

    As for Pride – well, it’s a big party, you can take or leave it. The message from pride is uncompromising: full equality, full protection. It’s time we heard more of that. If you don’t like that message for whatever reason, then raise your voice.

    However if anyone’s argument be, that the fiesta style celebration of being open makes life more difficult in some supposedly ‘no-go’ area of a midlands city, because it encourages shariafascist-supporting thugs to attack gay people in the namke of their faith, tough. We work together to deport, or somehow eliminate such people from society.

    Manchester Pride was better attended in the days when it was free though.

  61. Simon Murphy wrote above: “I don’t imagine there are many people under the age of 30 still in the closet.” Which is a crazy statement to make.

    I’m afraid the message from some Prides is nothing like ‘full equality, full protection’. It is nothing political at all in fact… Last year the organiser of Manchester Pride tried to prevent a group of young people from walking along with a political banner which read ‘Pride Not Profit’.

    At last year’s Manchester Pride parade it was a white ‘thug’ who tried to grab my camera and then threatened to punch me in the face. I walked over to a cop who was standing 10 yards away but he wasn’t interested. Obviously didn’t want any embarrassing crime figures to spoil the big party (including Police marchers too of course)! If we can’t feel safe on the street during the Pride parade then something is wrong, don’t you think?

    There are tolerant and intolerant people of all races. One of my friends is a (straight) Iraqi-Kurd with gay friends besides me and despite the regular abuse he has to put up with from gay men in his job working in a takeaway in the gay village!

  62. All racism is a disgrace gary. I hope your friends reports those who make such nasty remarks. (and a massive mistake to confuse religion, ethnicity, multi-cultural etiquette and race. Racism itself, in fact.)

    I can’t really comment on Manchester pride as I havent been to that since about 1998. London is better for that. Manchester was always a very commercial affair if I recall.

  63. Monkeychops 26 Jun 2009, 2:29pm

    Yikes, awful news Gary. It’s true there are still people in the closet and I admit to being one of the voices saying things are not as bad as they use dto be. Not as extreme as Simon by any means, but I do think a lot of the battle has been won in terms of earning respect from the genral public and lawmakers alike. However, that’s the UK – and more notably, for its white population. Somalians, I doubt, are afraid of white British people attacking them, more their own communities, since back in the homeland there is neither any education on the topic nor a legal system with gay rights integrated into it. It’s clearly not the case that when you come from a socially backward country you magically acquire the values of your host nation. I would disagree perhaps about Pride being safer than other instances though – it’s like any high profile event, it will attract the nutters opposing it in their droves. Like the swearing in of a president, Tory party conferences or even carnivals.

    Now, slightly off topic but somehow related….there was an article, possibly on Rainbow News or Network or whatever it’s called, that looked into internal-racism issues amongst gay men. Most notably about discrimination on gaydar profiles – basically, “no blacks, no Asians” etc. It was quite interesting in terms of what is racist and what is simply personal taste. It also highlighted that, as I have inferred before (recieving boos and hisses along the way) that the gay “community” is not the hotbed of acceptance and liberal mindedness it is made out to be. We do discriminate towards social “others” as much as our straight counterparts. And your poor Iraqi-Kurd friend will know this better than anyone. Would someone on here know of this article?

  64. Lovely to come back to this thread and see that it has got back on track. I think that being out is important not just for my own sanity and happiness, but it is important for closeted gay people to see happy, out gay people going about their normal business. There are many people who are in situations where it is harder for them to come out. I remember an Asian taxi driver picking up me and some friends from a gay club and telling me how sad he was that his culture had forced him to marry a woman and stay in the closet and how he found ways to get some casual sex but it was not fulfilling. It reminded me how lucky I was to be able to have the things I want. Being out has become much more normalised and that helps to change attitudes. When I went to family weddings as a child I would have been shocked to see a gay couple dancing together, but these days it is pretty much normal to have a smattering of gay couples at straight weddings and most would never think that they couldn’t/shouldn’t dance with their partners.

  65. david skinner 26 Jun 2009, 6:11pm

    There is nothing off topic here, Monkeychops, why don’t you look at the article written by Johann Hari, entitled, ‘The strange, unexplored overlap between homosexuality and fascism? ‘ But It won’t just be blacks excluded from the inner circle of homosexuals but women, lesbians included, who already are merely considered to be breeders, machines of human reproduction. Why not ask Barry Drewitt and Tony Barlow? They know all about this.

  66. David Skinner’s ill-informed comments are certainly irritating, and his attitude is pernicious. He would like to stop gays from forming meaningful relationships and to break up all existing gay relationships, and he would like us all to embark on a futile quest for a “cure” for something that doesn’t need curing. Clearly, if he were allowed to do so, he would be playing some very dangerous and devastating games with other people’s lives.

    Fortunately, his chances of winning over anyone else on this web-site to his mindset are virtually zero, so perhaps – despite the consequent irritation – it’s better to have him on here, safely banging his head against a brick wall, than somewhere else where he might do real damage.

  67. Brian Burton 27 Jun 2009, 7:09am

    David Skinner,
    Why don’t you admit you are a closet Queen, desperatley using all at your disposal to disguise your own ‘Queer’ problem. We all here think you need some serious theripy to help you face your obvious ‘Demons’ in your addled head.

  68. david skinner 27 Jun 2009, 12:29pm

    Actually, I will come clean. I will finally admit it. And this will require enormous courage on my part; I am a closet teapot, about to trans to becoming welsh dresser. There I have said it now and I must admit it; this gives me an immediate sense of liberation.marvelous

  69. Brian Burton 27 Jun 2009, 1:48pm

    David Skinner,

    Splendid, splendid, I knew all you needed was a little coaxing to get you to admit your ‘Homosexuality’ (you call it teapot) still, you have admited your closet Homosexuality to all on Pink News and This should be put on Face Book, Youtube etcetera. I think you are very brave, after all your constant denial of ‘Your Problem.’ You will find you are much happier in yourself now you have admitted your Homosexuality to everyone.

  70. david skinner 27 Jun 2009, 3:19pm

    Well hold it Brian. Words are one thing and deeds are another; only when I have displayed my varicose Chippendale legs along Frinton on Sea sea front, for all he world to see, will I truly be able to claim that, yes, I am a trans – or is that a cross ?- welsh dresser.

  71. Please ignore David Skinner. He’s trying to derail the thread again. Look back and see how he entices people by using their name and making ‘arguments’ or ‘responding’ to points. He’s not interested in what we say, in my opinion. He’s here to goad.

    Back on topic:- I recently met someone who knew he was gay, but, after a brief coming out to a few people in his late teens, some years later married a woman. You can’t ask somebody why they did that, and I got the impression he didn’t quite know himself. All he said about it was that he’d ‘given up’. I thought this was really sad and I didn’t know what to say. I wanted to say that it wasn’t too late – but is it? is there a point when you can’t come out? If coming out is telling people which path you’re about to walk down, then what can that man do when he’s already chosen a path – albeit one he knows is wrong?

    I hope that makes sense. I was trying to explain while not putting any personal detail. I don’t know the answer and I don’t know what to say to him when it seems like he’s looking for advice. I certainly don’t want to say that he should come out if he’s going to ruin his life, but he’s obviously quite disturbed by the situation. I don’t suppose anyone here knows a group or advice line or anything that I could refer him to? I seem to remember someone on here mentioning a couple who had both been previously married to women. He believes he’s alone, I think, that’s why the name of a support group or something would be so good, if anyone know of one.

    I thought about him immediately when I read about the difficulties some people faced above. So, yes, there are so many people who might be afraid or uncertain about coming out for various reasons.

  72. TomPaine, AdrianT, Iris, Will, RobN, Monkeychops, Tony, Brian,Simon Murphy….Cyberspace Group Hug!

    David Skinner, you will end up alone, unloved and unmourned.

  73. I’m not sure of any helplines et al Iris, but I must say you’re a very caring friend.

    My advice to him would probably be “What does your heart say?” – This will tell him, but it’s whether he can admit to it that will make the difference. If he doesn’t want to admit it then all the talking in the world cannot help him as he will just be in denial.

    Male bisexuality is very, very rare, it does exist but it’s a rarity (compared to female bisexuality).

    I must say, I feel evry sad and sorry for him, but for his wife too.

    What a difficult situation, Iris.

  74. Thank you, Lezabella. You’re very kind… I don’t ask much because it’s obviously a painful subject, but I think what weighs heaviest on him is the fact that other people’s happiness is involved. I’d guess by what he’s said that he’s paralysed by guilt. I don’t know if this is admirable (not wanting to upset people) or something I should try to shake him out of for his own sake. I’m pretty sure I know what his heart says, but he doesn’t think that’s an option. I don’t know if he’s being dutiful staying or just punishing himself for his ‘mistakes’ – or even if he’s too depressed to feel he has a future (he’s been on anti-depressants before).

    I just wish that everyone – no matter what age or background – could understand their sexuality as soon as it became an issue for them in their teens, and had the confidence to come out and live their life.

  75. Iris, does the man have any parental responsibilities? If not then he has not so much reason to feel guilt. It’s the way he is. The first step is honesty, to himself, and to his wife. Don’t hide. There is no point being guilty of what you are. And if the feeling has gone, the most important thing to do start the process of rebuilding your life – and freeing the partner to find someone who actually loves her.

  76. david skinner 29 Jun 2009, 12:04pm

    In a previous debate in the House of Lords, in 2007, on the issue of gay adoption rights, the Honourable Baroness Howarth of Breckland said:

    “My Lords, I speak without a prepared speech but with a heavy heart. As a Christian woman, I find this an extraordinarily difficult and distressing debate. It is distressing because we are not really prepared to face the fundamental issue. I have listened to speeches in which noble Lords have said, “We respect gay people, but…” The issue is not about rights; if it were, we would not be having this debate. It is about whether noble Lords accept gay people as equal human beings. Two hundred years ago, William Wilberforce made a speech in Parliament that freed black people to be equal human beings. I hope that this evening your Lordships will vote for these regulations. I have some quarrel with the way in which the regulations have been brought forward, but I hope that noble Lords will vote to underline that gay people are equal human beings with others. I say this as a Christian woman. I have listened to the most reverend Primate the Archbishop of York, and I listened to the Catholic archbishop on the radio this morning, a very dear and wonderful man……..”

    I have no idea whether the Honourable Baroness Howarth of Breckland is a Christian or not; only God can be the judge of that, but it seems to me that the whole of this statement is founded on a lie.

    “William Wilberforce made a speech in Parliament that freed black people to be equal human beings.” is deceptively linked with “but I hope that noble Lords will vote to underline that gay people are equal human beings with others.”

    Wilberforce did not work to make black people human; it was precisely because they were already fully human, made in the image of God – not determined by evolution to behave mechanistically but free to behave with dignity and responsibility – that he worked to free them from oppression, slavery and bondage. To suggest that the so – called fundamentalist Christian is in some way denying the homosexual the freedom to become fully human is a disgraceful travesty of the beliefs and work of William Wilberforce. To suggest that there are beings called heterosexuals who already bask in the warmth and privilege of being human and that there are these others, called homosexuals, who also need upgrading to being classed as human is a damnable lie. Homosexuality dehumanises and debases humanity.

    Allow me to give an example. There are people who used to be alcoholics. Fortunately through one means or another they were able to overcome the addiction. Not necessarily through re -orientating to soft drinks but simply through abstinence. And even though they may never touch a drop in years, it might only take a moment of intense stress or depression for all their old craving to return. It is then that the real battle begins. Either they give in or they overcome the craving. There will always be those around who start to jeer and say, “look, there you go again; you never were a teetotal. You were born an alcoholic. Just accept it and hit the drinks cabinet. But we answer no; this is a lie. This is not what I was intended to be and though I might bear the emotional and mental scars of being an alcoholic, I shall either abstain or I will drink only those substances that do me good.

    Becoming a Christian is no guarantee of being healed from the slavery of homosexuality any more than it is a guarantee that we will all be transformed in the twinkling of an eye to become perfect human beings. What being a Christian does for me is to know the Truth, Jesus Christ, who sets me free from the fear of death and the power of sin and to be assisted by the Holy Spirit who enables and encourages with His power to keep going, even when I fall.
    “Come out,” cried Jesus to Lazarus, bound in the tomb. Come out I say to you and start the journey wholeness. This is not an easy journey but it leads to life. The other road might appear to be easy but it leads to certain death.

  77. Oh shut up David you boring bastard!

    People have corrected you and proven you wrong, many, many times on here and yet you still persist!

    I’m beginning to think that you have no ears and run around in circles all day as you’ve been proven wrong but won’t listen, and instead prefer to repeat yourself and hence listen to others repeat themselves….aaaaaaaaaaaargh!

    Just go away, get a hobby, whatever, but you know what? We’re gay….GET OVER IT!

  78. Iris-

    Other people’s happiness being at stake is a very, very powerful motive for not being true to yourself.

    I imagine he feels something along the lines of “What right do I have to hurt her in such a way?”. That’s what a friend of mine used to say.

    But he has to realise, a relationship based on and lived through a lie will ultimately never be happy. He should think about how his wife would feel knowing the truth….not that he’s gay, but that her life (for however long they’ve been together) has been a lie. I guarantee it won’t be the homosexuality she will be most upset about, it will be the fact she’s been lied to and amount of time she’s wasted on it.

    There’s no nice way of putting this and the options are limited:

    1) Carry on and deceive himself and his wife, where ultimatley nobody wins.

    2) Be true and hurt his wife, but then ultimately allow her to have a TRUE, happy life aswell as him.

    Until your friend is prepared to take this mental block away of not doing anything, I’m afraid you won’t be able to shake anything out of him Iris however hard you try, unfortunately.

  79. TomPaine – the answer is ‘yes’. I don’t want to put personal details, but yes, he has children. I think maybe it’s that most of all that’s destroying him. I don’t have an answer for him. I imagine he envisages messing up everyone’s lives so just stays in misery because it’s his fault in his mind.

    It’s OK him talking to me – I can be sympathetic and listen, but I don’t know anyone else in a similar situation or any helplines or anything where someone might understand what he’s going through. He’s a quiet, gentle man and his ‘not doing anything’ isn’t just fear for himself, but fear of causing pain. His wife was/is a friend and I think he cares about her, and would rather suffer than upset her world (children, house, financially, etc). But as time goes by (he’s in his 30s) I think it gets harder to deal with for him. Usually I’m confident in giving my opinion when someone asks for it, but I think he needs more help than I can give him. I worry about him a lot.

  80. Lezabella: “Other people’s happiness being at stake is a very, very powerful motive for not being true to yourself.”

    So, so true. It’s a thin line between self-fulfilment and selfishness sometimes. I think the options you listed are spot on if it was only the two of them involved. Sorry for not saying about children before, but I just felt a bit awkward discussing someone else’s life even anonymously. I was hoping someone might come up with a magic helpline number or something. Seeing someone hurting isn’t nice, and I wish I could help in a practical way.

  81. david skinner 29 Jun 2009, 1:57pm

    Lezabella, I didn’t quite catch what you said. You need speak up and more clearly. Maybe someone would care to translate ?

    Arthur Goldberg, J.D., C.R.S., who is the author of “Light in the Closet, Torah, Homosexuality, and the Power to Change” and Michelle Cretella, M.D., who is chair of the Sexuality Committee, American College of Pediatricians recently wrote this:

    “No genetic earmark distinguishing homosexuals from heterosexuals has ever been identified. Homosexuals and heterosexuals are genetically indistinguishable. As stated in a British medical journal, “From an evolutionary perspective, genetically determined homosexuality would have become extinct long ago because of reduced reproduction.”

    Indeed, taking the question further, more than 100 scientific studies indicate that change of sexual orientation is possible for many motivated individuals. The father of the Diagnostic Statistical Manual (the Bible of psychiatry), Dr. Robert Spitzer, changed his own lifetime view. He published a study in 2003 confirming that many dissatisfied homosexuals are able to make substantial long-term changes in orientation.

    Another premise of the same-sex marriage debate claims homosexual coupling involves stable, long-term relationships equivalent to heterosexual marriages. Drs. David McWhirter and Andrew Mattison, both openly homosexual, studied 156 male couples who had lived together for 20 years or more. To their dismay, they found that the longest period of sexual monogamy for those couples was five years; the average was under two years.

    Within the gay subculture, the concept of monogamy is simply not synonymous with sexual exclusivity. Gay activist Andrew Sullivan writes: “homosexuals have a need for extramarital outlets.” Lesbian writer Camille Paglia notes how gay magazines glamorize “the bigger bang of sex with strangers” and advocate “monogamy without fidelity” in same-sex couplings.
    The instability of same-sex relationships and prevalence of polyamory cannot be attributed to social discrimination or “homophobia.” During the 1990s many gay-affirming countries legalized same-sex marriage. The instability of homosexual relationships, however, remained unchanged. For example, a 2003 Dutch study found the average male homosexual partnership lasted only 1.5 years (Compare that figure to a CDC U.S. study of heterosexual marriages showing 50 percent of heterosexual marriages lasting 15 years or more.) Similarly, a 2004 Swedish study found that homosexual unions had a 50-percent higher divorce rate than heterosexual unions.

    Inherent health risks of the gay lifestyle present another issue. Life expectancy for men who have sex with men, according to a 1997 International Journal of Epidemiology study is eight to 20 years less than that of heterosexual men. ( Ask Terrance Higgins, Jarman, Garry Frisch, Kevin Greening; in fact why not visit Barts Hospital bum department to see the end result of homsexual practice ?).

    There is also a higher rate of intimate partner violence between same-sex couples
    Higher parent mortality and promiscuity increased rates of domestic violence and greater rates of divorce are not healthy for children. Consequently, acceptance of gay marriage requires a disregard for the best interests of children. It follows logically that if marriage is defined merely by “who we love” regardless of what is in the best interest of children, then the government has no right to discriminate against those with other sexual orientations including orientations toward children or animals. This is why advocates of pedophilia, group marriage, bestiality and incest cite gay marriage victories as their own. It is also no coincidence that within 10 years of legalizing same-sex marriage every Scandinavian country legalized polygamy.

    Truly the royal road to happiness. Walk this way

  82. He just keeps on going, doesn’t he? Dull and repetitive is silly old Mr. Skinner.

    What’s amazing is that Skinner won’t accept any science as truth, and yet he hurls “studies” to back up his sill claims. Well, here in lies the evidence that the result of a lack of education, formal or otherwise, is invariably stupid people.

    His so called “studies” are NARTH ones ,and are truly ridiculous.

    These don’t follow any scientific methods. NARTH is not a scientific organisation, its a religious one.

    The one on gay life expectancy was run on a newspaper obituaries! Ha! Did you ever hear such utter nonsense? A Newspaper! A 4th grade school student would know enough about research to know this kind of “evidence” is beyond laughable.

    Quoting studies like this only proves Skinner’s lack of any formal learning, and his entrenchment in silly narrow dogma.

    To quote NARTH studies as science is basically saying you’re an idiot.

    It was gay pride in Dublin last Saturday…. 12,000 people marched. So really, do we care what one old fool thinks? People in generally are smart enough to see through the nonsense and utter stupidity of the likes of Skinner.

  83. Oh, Iris, I feel for you so much, It’s a big strain on you. I’ve been through something similar.

    But please, as hard as it is, do not put so much pressure on yourself with this.

    I don’t know what advice to give, the man has children (please don’t apologise for not mentioning that earlier, I would be the same) and a wife.

    Clearly he’s a decent man as his sole concern is not wanting to hurt them…..gosh I really don’t know.

    By the sounds of it Iris, I don’t think he can carry on like this, being this unhappy.

    You’ll probably find that something will come to a head or will happen wherein it all comes out so to speak.

    But in the meantime I would keep a very close eye on him.

  84. David-

    I can put it another way if you don’t understand:


    Everyone else, I would advise you to not engage him in any debate whatsoever, he doesn’t listen, ignores statistics (except for his own ofcourse!) and is generally a bore.

    I will not be responding to him anymore as this is what he wants and craves.

    Even if it’s an insult, he will use it as an excuse to post something else.

    So please, let’s ignore this strange babbling man who trawls gay sites all day long (weirdo); and just talk to eachother.

  85. Ignore him, Will. That’s what he hates most. He only exists to taunt and provoke, and gets off on any response no matter how hostile. It’s like oxygen to him. He kids himself that he’s upset us or annoyed us. Ignoring him is what hurts him.

  86. Iris – the way forward will have to be in the direction of a more open relationship. THe worst thing he can do is to end up being sucked dry financially.

    Dawkins on monogamy and fidelity in ‘banishing the green eyed monster’: “Even sticking to the higher plane of love, is it so very obvious that you can’t love more than one person? We seem to manage it with parental love (parents are reproached if they don’t at least pretend to love all their children equally), love of books, of food, of wine (love of Chateau Margaux does not preclude love of a fine Hock, and we don’t feel unfaithful to the red when we dally with the white), love of composers, poets, holiday beaches, friends . . . why is erotic love the one exception that everybody instantly acknowledges without even thinking about it? Why can a woman not love two men at the same time, in their different ways? And why should the two – or their wives — begrudge her this? If we are being Darwinian, it might be easier to make the case the other way, for a man sincerely and deeply loving more than one woman. But I don’t want to pursue the details here.

    I’m not denying the power of sexual jealousy. It is ubiquitous if not universal. I’m just wondering aloud why we all accept it so readily, without even thinking about it. And why don’t we all admire – as I increasingly do — those rare free spirits confident enough to rise above jealousy, stop fretting about who is “cheating on” whom, and tell the green-eyed monster to go jump in the lake?” (Newsweek, Nov. 2007)

  87. david skinner 29 Jun 2009, 4:15pm

    Well Will and Lezabella I do bow to your superior education and scientific qualifications. I am after all only a cross welsh dresser. Be that as it may even babes and donkeys come out with the truth from time to time. Statistics from Terrance Higgins trust last updated June 2009 said this:

    “HIV is the fastest growing serious health condition in the UK. It’s estimated that 70,000 people are living with HIV, a third of whom are undiagnosed.
    Around 89,000 cases of HIV have been reported since the early 1980s
    17,957 people with HIV have died since the early 1980s
    There were 7,450 new diagnoses in 2005
    In 2006, it was estimated that 30% of people living with HIV did not know about their infection
    Men living with HIV outnumbered women who have HIV by 2:1
    43% of all new diagnoses of HIV in 2005 were in London
    30% of new HIV diagnoses in 2005 were among men who have sex with men
    HIV in Scotland
    In 2007, 368 people were newly diagnosed with HIV in Scotland
    This represents an increase of 120% between 1998 – 2007
    Number of people needing HIV care in Scotland
    2005: 2,177
    2006: 2,416
    Between 2005 and 2006 the number of people accessing NHS care for HIV who lived in Scotland increased by 11%
    Scotland has the highest percentage in the UK of people accessing HIV care who acquired the virus through injecting drug use (16%)
    Who is most affected?
    The two groups most affected in the UK are men who have sex with men (MSM) and migrants from regions of the work where HIV is common, such as sub-Saharan Africa.
    Approximately 2,700 men who have sex with men were diagnosed in 2006, the highest number since the epidemic began. 82% of these men were probably acquired HIV in the UK”

    It then goes on to say that;

    “The majority of people actually diagnosed with HIV in the UK in 2006 (61%) had been infected through heterosexual sex. Most of these infections were acquired abroad and many were in individuals of African origin.
    Because of the way that HIV can be transmitted, another group that faces significant risk of contracting HIV is injecting drug users who share equipment.”

    But this statement ignores the fact 98% of population is heterosexual and so it is no wonder that they account for more infections. That means that 1-2% of population who are homosexual account for the remainder.

    No doubt Lezabella will respond by saying, “ The reason that 49% exists is due to the fact that the gay male community were the first insular, sub-culture to be exposed to the virus; and since gay men only sleep with each other it stands to reason that a large number would have it. The same as the haemophilliac gene that exists in all of the royal Houses Of Europe, as it has been passed down from the matriach Queen Victoria and since her grandchildren, cousins and whoever only bred with each other; they all carried it and passed it on.
    I can go through any amount of analogies you like to get this through to you. That isolated communities who are exposed to an STI would hence have more of it compared to other communities. Would you like me to explain that to you again? Or do you actually understand the concept of what I’ve just said?”

    Well Lezabella, they do say that every crown head of Europe is descended from Queen Victoria and if we count up all cousins and other relatives this must amount to quite a sizeable minority. But I have not heard that they account for nearly half of haemophillia in Europe. Neither have I heard of other minorities being responsible for the spread other contagious diseases as homosexuals are with HIV and AIDS. May I suggest that the reason homosexuals are more likely spread HIV and AIDs is simply because they are more promiscuous, engage in high risk behaviour and have a death wish?

  88. Thank you, TomPaine. That was a very interesting quote.

    An open relationship was something that hadn’t occurred to me when I was thinking about what he could do. I saw it as black and white – stay or go. You’ve got me thinking a lot about that idea. I’ve no idea about my opinion of it yet – too much to think about!

    The only thing disadvantage I can think of, apart from needing everyone’s consent, is if he were to meet a man that he wanted to live with (I think that’s what he agonises that he’s missing out on – a full and fulfilling relationship). But then, I suppose he could wait till the children were older… But..I don’t know.

    Wow – you surprised me with that idea I don’t know what to say because it’s something I know very little about. Thank you for taking the time to respond – I appreciate it. You too, Lezabella. I feel more positive that I can say something useful to him just by having a chance to discuss it on here. Thank you.

  89. david skinner 29 Jun 2009, 5:38pm

    Great, I love it when it all comes straight from the horse’s mouth. First we have Peter Tatchell saying that homosexuality isn’t natural; then we have Johann Hari linking homoxuality with the Nazis and now we have Tom Paine and Iris waxing lyrical about the joys of homosexual promiscuity. I cannot wait for further outings, or should we rather call them revelations. Marvellous. Keep them coming.

  90. “But in the meantime I would keep a very close eye on him.”

    Sound advice, Lezabella. Sorry I missed that bit in all the crap from the gay trawler. (Note how he tries to provoke again here – desperate for attention). I think you’re right about things reaching a head. He’s been very stressed recently – it’s actually upsetting to see his expression. My plan is just to be here if he needs someone to talk to. I used to think that gay people who got married were just stupid or trying to deceive people or something, but having met him I know that that’s so often not the case, and that life’s not always as easy as it should be regarding sexuality.

  91. “Come out, come out wherever you are..!”
    I wonder what that is in German…

  92. My pleasure Iris. Look, why should he wait for anything? He does not need anyone’s consent.

  93. Keith, so glad you’re ‘ere. I’ve been having this nightmare about a guy called Skavid Dinner, and he had a hole as large as a penny going from one ear right through to the other, and his eyes were lit up like two 150-watt bulbs, and he was wearing your mother’s lampshade on his head and….z-z-z-z-z-z-z

  94. #91
    Nobody speak Deutsch, then…?
    Well shame on YOU…!
    I should talk!
    I should have been paying achtung in der Klasse des Deutsches Spraches aber ich war too busy, votchink Rev. Bruder Seamus O’ Schtiffnessy fiddling with some 10 Jahre alt knabe or other und vundering wass er voss do-ink.

    Never you mind about our lovely Skavid.
    He is as much a fixture on these pages as any one else.
    You mustn’t mock the afflicted, BENTHAM.
    He’s gut fur ein lachen and you’d/we’d all be in cold turkey if he took the ‘ump, did as he was ‘advised’ – and effed orrf…

    We’d only all be bored rigid; keeps you all on your tows.
    He doesn’t worry me…but then that is more to do with the fact that I do not even begin to understand his erudition let alone challenge it; I am happy with my position as class tit.
    So you keep truckin’ Dave, and never you mind the ‘slings and arrers of outrageous…’ thinggy.

    God! Can’t you tell I went to Hochschule!
    German in spades and now William Shake it baby shake it…

    I’m well WASTED on ‘ere…

  95. Iris-

    It’s obvious that he is a good man, as he’s putting other people’s happiness and peace of mind above his own, even at the expense of his health; and for quite some time by the sounds of it.

    I think TomPaine’s advice of an open relationship could work. However, I think your friend needs to be prepared if he takes this route, as it could also be a ‘can of worms’ situation and may be the first stepping stone to leaving his wife. Things could unravel pretty fast after this step is taken.

    Is the marriage a happy one? On the surface I mean? If not then this may be the best step and something his wife may even be interested in?

    I feel for you Iris, it’s obvious you care a lot for him.

  96. david skinner 30 Jun 2009, 1:37pm

    Yes, Iris, it is good that you think of his wife and children; but if I were you, I would not be involving myself in other people’s marriages. Leave well alone. Don’t interfere. Otherwise, apart from having your own disorders to account for, you will also have to answer for helping to destroy some one else’s family and Lezabella, or whatever her name is , will be counted as an accessory.

  97. Lezabella: “Is the marriage a happy one? On the surface I mean”

    Superficially, I guess so, yes. I don’t know if this is contentment or a kind of ‘let’s ignore it because it’s too painful to think about’ attitude. He did try to say something once, but got no response, which just made him more nervous. I don’t know and don’t ask about anything unless if volunteers information, but he did say that they hadn’t had a physical relationship for some years. I thought that was very strange, but apparently not for some people from what I’ve heard. I have no idea whether she’s happy about that. DEFINITELY not something I’d ask.

    The only support group I’ve found so far is Gay Married Men which is based in Manchester. I’ve passed that on to him, but it’s sad there’s nothing closer (ie South England).

  98. Iris-

    It’s good that he has a friend like you to turn to. But I understand the stress and worry for him, afterall he doesn’t want to hurt anyone.

    Maybe you should ask/probe a little? Maybe he wants to talk but just needs a little nudge? I know when I was recognising myself that I was gay, questions from people helped. It helped me to explain to them, myself and also to get things off my chest. But I bow to expertise and if you know he isn’t that sort of person then no I wouldn’t ask.

    If they haven’t had a physical relationship for years (?!) then maybe an open-relationship or a split will not be so out of the blue? Maybe even his wife is feeling the same but won’t do it for the child(ren)?

    It’s good you found a number for him, to atleast speak to people who know.

    Other than be there for him, talk and listen; I don’t think there’s not a lot you can do.

  99. Lezabella, thank you for all your help – I really, really appreciate it.

  100. david skinner 30 Jun 2009, 7:45pm

    Iris does his wife know that you have become his confident and counsellor in all things personal and private, or is this done in whispers?

  101. Lezabella 1 Jul 2009, 9:39am


    No problem, he’s lucky to have such a caring friend :)

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