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British ambassador to Poland criticised for ‘pushing’ gay rights

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  1. Good on you, Mr Ambassador! We need our straight friends and allies on side especially against the Arch Homophobe of Rome and his ilk! well done; keep the two flags flying!!!

  2. Monkeychops 11 Jun 2009, 3:42pm

    He’s a diplomat, he knows he should stay out of this kind of argument – regardless of the cause he is fighting for. That’s what diplomats do. Credit to him though, he’s obviously got a progressive mind, which shows we are being well-represented abroad where our reputation counts!

  3. Good for him. The world needs this breed of strong leadership from more enlightened, progressive governments and their global representatives to drive the spread of equality and acceptance around the world, especially in places like Poland where socially-conservative governments and societies seek to repress the human rights of minorities.

  4. Pumpkin Pie 11 Jun 2009, 3:47pm

    Nice to see a politician with some integrity! Nice one, Todd!

  5. Monkeychops 11 Jun 2009, 3:56pm

    Pumpkin Pie – he’s a diplomat, not a politician. Very different. Politicians can have whatever opinion they like, diplomats have to take only a government line and keep out of controversy.

  6. Simon Murphy 11 Jun 2009, 4:21pm

    #5 MOnkeychops.

    He is taking the government line. The UK government is supportive of gay rights.

    Why would the ambassador pretend to be as socially backward as Polish society or government? That is not representative of the UK government. He would be failing in his duties if he were to behave like that.

    You don’t seem to like gay people very much Monkeychops as without fail on almost every discussion on here you pop up finding fault with anyone who condemns homophobia. Are you very young or insecure or what us the reason for your predictable behaviour?

  7. Monkeychops – this IS the official UK government line! UK is one of the three countries in the world where LGBT rights abroad are one of the priorities of the foreign policy. The other two are the Netherlands and Sweden. As for the Polish so-called civil rights ombudsman’s statement that gay people in Poland do not face discrimination, it only shows that he is a completely wrong person for the job, no doubt installed there by the “evil twins” and the church!

  8. Monkeychops 11 Jun 2009, 4:42pm

    Trust me, having worked with and having a lot of friends who are diplomats, you don’t start handing out brochures on this kind of thing. He was also promoting a Polish event – not a British one and it is not his place to comment publically on Polish affairs like that. It would be the same if he were to comment on abortion, Polish food or anything else. You take the government line when you are dealing with diplomats and high representatives from that country in a political dialogue. And only then. The rest of the time you shut up. If Polish diplomats started harping on about how overly liberal we were in allowing “abominations”, there would just as much outrage. It’s not a dimplomats place to comment on the society he lives in, just policies in political surroundings. Any diplomats on here to put us in the know before we lose track?

    Simon- Homophobia is awful, what I am trying to get people to realise is that being attracted to the same sex is not always the reason why people don’t like us – it’s often the way we display ourselves in public. The most visible gay people are appallingly uncivilised. How many people appreciate such crassness? Not many, hence why the fight goes on. It’s also not something I relate to or appreciate and it can only be healthy on a forum to see a wide range of views, don’t you think? Or do you not believe in democracy? You seem to be obsessed with my age – which, in another thread I told you was 28. And, just because I am gay, why do I need to need to conform to the views of everyone else? My opinions, like others, are based on my own experiences, education, global voyages and hard-learned lessons in life. And they are just as valid. So tough tits. Your behaviour is just as predictable, I knew you’d come out with that and it would show that maybe it’s you who is insecure. I’m the one telling people to be more positive about the world we’re in instead of crowing on about how every last straight person and church goer is waiting behind a buttress to slaughter us. Panic isn’t something that is useful to society. Some people here need to get a more realistic view of life. Get out and speak to people then you’ll see.

  9. Pumpkin Pie 11 Jun 2009, 5:13pm

    Homophobia is awful, what I am trying to get people to realise is that being attracted to the same sex is not always the reason why people don’t like us – it’s often the way we display ourselves in public. The most visible gay people are appallingly uncivilised.

    Don’t kid yourself, homophobe. Being gay doesn’t give you the right to talk to us and generalize us like that. And how utterly naive you are if you think a dislike of camp behavious is anything more than a convenient excuse for those who denigrate us.

  10. Pumpkin Pie 11 Jun 2009, 5:13pm

    “Behavious” means “behaviour”. It’s a synonym I invented just now.

  11. Monkeychops, honestly I don’t see what the problem is if a diplomat expresses support for LGBT rights. As the FCO has confirmed, this is part of their charter so if you have a problem with this, instead of criticising this man who’s doing what his job entails, you should write to your MP and ask them to lobby for the FCO to withdraw support for LGBT rights.

    But I sort of feel that with homophiles like you, who needs homophobes…

  12. ‘The most visibly gay people are appallingly uncivilized.’

    Someone please tell me I didn’t read that on this thread. Who would say sure a thing. Was Harvey Milk uncivilized?

  13. I dont care whether the Ambassador should be involved in such things or not – who cares! Great to see someone with the balls to take a stand for the good! Good on him.

  14. Monkeychops 12 Jun 2009, 12:29am

    Valerio – you clearly don’t seem to understand the job of a diplomat. He is there to negotiate with other governments, not publically intervene in the way the society is run. Again, if you listen, it is a Polish event, run by a Polish city council, it is therefore not appropriate for a loose canon ambassador to comment upon or to promote British lines – regardless of whether we support what he is saying. He also knows full well that it’s a sensitive issue in Poland and outside meddling will only cause problems. Equally, it is not the place of a diplomat following a homophobic national agenda to comment on how London runs its gay pride by handing out anti-gay flyers. Which I’m sure you’d be happy with right? Probably not because you’d rather a diplomat didn’t do his job properly, but only when it was in your favour. You’d be the first to get the knives out for a Polish diplomat criticising London Pride. How predictably hypocritical!

    Being camp isn’t what I’m against Pumpkin Pie, it’s the habits, drug-taking, cruising, public displays of fetishism at pride that get us a bad name. The implied seediness of gay life just gets reaffirmed every year. Do you actually know anyone straight? And do they actually like you? Have you ever had conversations about what it means to be gay with them? Have you ever asked their point of view? Do you go to non-gay venues? Maybe you should start doing that. I have and I’ve found every time that people don’t even have much of an issue with campness (noticed how popular Graham Norton is? It isn’t 10 million gays watching, there aren’t that bloody many in the country). It’s the public exhibitionism of their sex lives that does it. Straight people – and generally anyone civilised – frown upon that kind of behaviour – any of them caught doing it get a word of disapproval. They’re just treating gays with the same values, only gays can’t see that, they take it as a personal attack as, for some odd reason, gays seem to think public displays of sexual behaviour and kinkiness is part of “gay culture”. Only, I, like many others with a bit of common decency and self-respect, don’t agree.

    Re Harvey Milk – I was actually referring to guys out on the scene apropos aforementioned uncivilised behaviour. Harvey Milk was a courageous and doggedly determined man who succeded in the face of hostility. How could anyone not like the man?

  15. Dear me Monkeychops and pumpkin pie; calm down and have a cup of tea dears! There are a hugh number of camp gays and a huge number of so called str8 acting gays. If you don’t like it camp then keep out of the Gay villages; its that simple. If you prefer John Barrowman and Brian Paddick to Alan Carr then so what? lets not have a civil war boys; we are essentailly all on the same side!!! PAX! xxx (and thanks again Mr ambassador; we might need a diplomat to sort out our two feuding friends!)

  16. Pumpkin Pie 12 Jun 2009, 4:15pm

    Do you actually know anyone straight?

    Of all my closest friends, I know of only one who isn’t straight – my bisexual bestest gal-pal. Although, I have had LGBT acquaintances in the past – classmates, flatmates and such. I do have some LGBT friends online, and I’d love to meet some more in real-life. I’m kind of geographically isolated from my friends right now, so I definitely need some fresh blood in my life to hang out with.

    And do they actually like you?

    Why wouldn’t they? I rock. Funnily enough, they all think I’m straight. I’ve only really accepted I was bisexual for two years now, and in those two years I’ve only had fleeting contact with my best friends. I’m saving coming out for a “special occasion”. I want them to know just how wonderful realising my sexuality has been. Gotta make it exciting!

    Have you ever had conversations about what it means to be gay with them? Have you ever asked their point of view?

    Yeah, they’re an enlightened bunch and they’d think you’re positively Stone Age. My friends are kind, caring, accepting, diverse and friendly. They’re a really great bunch, and I should really try to meet more people like them. I was open about my sexuality with my workmates at the last place I worked, and they treated me just like anybody else. In fact, they were all really interested in what it’s like for me. Should they have treated me differently?

    Do you go to non-gay venues?

    I haven’t actually been to any “gay bars” yet. Looking forwards to it, though!

  17. Monkeychops 12 Jun 2009, 4:31pm

    You see Pumpkin, here you are going on about how you know so much about the gay world, what’s right/wrong, how people should feel etc but you’ve never been to a gay bar, nor do you have many gay friends. How on earth can you claim to be in the know about what gay people are actually like? In all their diversity. After all, you’ve come up against a brick wall with me, as I am not of the same mind-set of a lot of gay guys. I’m not going to be the last one either.

    Maybe you’ve never met a real homophobe either – you know the kind that smashes your teeth in and leaves you for dead. Hope you never do, which is why I’m still not impressed with your rather childish use of calling those of us that don’t quite agree with you homophobes. Do you realise what you’re saying? Do you realise what that adjective actually encapsulates? I won’t insult you by saying maybe you’re young and naive, though I hope it is that – you should grow out of it. Besides, think my boyfriend might disagree about my homophobic tendencies…..

    Glad you’ve got a good support network, now get out and get some more life experience before your naivety lands you in a spot of bother ;)

  18. Pumpkin Pie 12 Jun 2009, 5:27pm

    The fact that your attitude and experience of gay culture is pretty much the opposite of the majority of the vastly different sorts of characters on this site, I’d say that’s a pretty clear indicator that you’re full of crap.

    Attention all commenters: Monkeychops has just given you permission to override his views if you are older and have more experience of gay culture than him.

    Anyone else miss RobN? Now there was a misanthrope with some decorum. A people-hater you could respect! He may have been a grouch, but he had his own sort of gracefulness. I hope he posts again.

  19. Monkeychops:

    It took awhile, but now I see it. A student of Hank’s, are we?
    Diplomatically homophobic, are we? Your generalization says it all:

    ‘The most visible gays are appallingly uncivilized.’ Didn’t you say that in your post 8.

    SoPumpkin Pie has come up against a brick wall, has he? (17)

    Do you mean an ex-gay fundamentalist brick wall, sweetie?

    Stick around, don’t run away.

  20. Pumpkin Pie:

    You are caught up in an irrational conversation with an ex-gay fundamentalist homophobe. Get it? Here’s something to clear your mind:

    Saturday, June 13th

    1574 – RICHARD BARNFIELD, the English poet, was born on this date (d: 1620). There are, as everyone knows, certain inseparable teams: Gilbert & Sullivan, Cheech and Chong, bagels and lox, ham and eggs, Soddom and Gomorrah. In classical mythology, as in ballet, there are Daphnis and Chloë, the Greek shepherd and his lady love – Daphnis and Chloë, as inseparable as yin and yang, gin and tonic, Ron and Nancy. Not in Richard Banrfield, however. His Affectionate Shepherd (1594) scandalized Renaissance England by describing in florid detail the love of Daphnis and Ganymede, just a couple of guys, foolin’ around. What the fuss was all about is difficult to say since, in the absence of Chloë, Daphnis never exercised his shepherdly option of making it with his favorite sheep, choosing a boy instead. “If it be a sin to love a lovely lad,” wrote Barnfield, “oh, then sin I.” He was not quite 21 when he wrote the poem. His obscure though close relationship with Shakespeare has long made him interesting to students.

    No more answering Monkeychops, OK? You are no longer alone facing this sleezeball. Sorry I wasn’t here sooner. R U with me?

  21. Pumpkin Pie:

    Yes, I do miss RobN.

  22. Ex-gay fundamentalist alert . . . Monkeychops
    Ex-gay fundamentalist alert . . . Monkeychops
    Ex-gay fundamentalist alert . . . Monkeychops

    Monkeychops . . . monkeying around and making a baboons ass of himself

  23. I have said before that the point of all LGBT prides is to counteract the dominant heterosexism we are force-fed on a daily basis. The FO supports equality abroad, and should be praised for doing so, and I would rightly criticise any Polish ambassador for denigrating LGBT equality and the expression of LGBT Pride in this country.

    I am not looking for special rights, but I demand equal rights. I demand them here, and from anyone who is expecting my money, as Poland does.

  24. Brian Burton 13 Jun 2009, 3:14pm

    Will someone Kindly Cage that Monky on our Backs!!!

  25. Well done the Ambassador!

    Ferrero Rochers all round. And by the way, it is perfectly natural for a British ambassador to show support for the LGBT community. It’s not about British values, ‘Monkeychops’ – human rights are universal values. It makes good sense to promote better understanding of LGBT people because if there is less bigotry, oppression and discrimination, there are fewer asylum seekers.
    Keep up the good work, Pumpkin Pie, you don’t need to explain yourself to this supercilious nitwit ;-)

  26. Well we certainly are having a “diplomatic incident” over this one boys and girls; older gays? I can remember a time when police in a gay bar caused the fear factor; now we have liasion groups where police officers in uniform go into bars and are welcomed; we’ve come a long way in the last 20 years (and YES I am sadly over 40!) Anyone who tries to help our fellow LGBT foks in other countries is as welome as sunshine on a summers day ESPECIALLY if they are our str8 allies (And YES I have worked to promote Gay rights for the last 10 years both on and off the Force!)

  27. Yea TomPaine!

    Yea Mike!

    Hello Brian!

  28. Monkeychops 14 Jun 2009, 10:50pm

    To all those that waded in – you’re all missing the point. You’re all congratulating the diplomat for being so outspoken etc. THAT IS NOT HIS JOB. Go and talk to a diplomat!

    Pumpkin – because I don’t support the majority of the the varying views on here means that I should be condemned? Hmmmm….doesn’t that idea conflict with us being a minority? On that basis, the majority straight community (who also have a wide variety of views) would be perfectly justify in telling you to shut your trap because they don’t agree with the crap you come out with. Fair enough then, you’ll just have to lose your voice for being a minority. And, apparently, you were in favour of minority rights??

    This whole ex-gay fundamentalist conspiracy thing is actually quite amusing. Especially as I have said that I am gay several times (thoug I guess that doesn’t matter to some on here). Perhaps some of you have been quite good at pigeon-holing yourselves….after all you’ve assumed that only an ex-gay fundamentalist could have the opinions that I have expressed here. How very narrow-minded (and hypocritical) of you…..treat others as you expect to be treated guys and be a bit consistent in your views. Mine may be controversial, but they don’t contradict.

  29. That’s not why I’m criticising you Monkeychops. You ask someone to justify their opinion by asking them how many gay people they know. This is not interesting. (It’s as irrelevant as justifying an opinion by the number of countries you have visited – which you repeatedly remind us of: you could tell me, for instance, that in every corner of the globe, you have observed the sun go round the Earth. It wouldn’t help your cause.) You invite trouble by telling people, engaging in an argument, to ‘shut up and go to your corner’.

    The diplomat in this case made no comment or criticism about the Polish government’s stand on gay rights. They merely put up a flag inside Embassy grounds. This looks more like a hysterical overreaction on the part of the Poles.

    By the way, diplomats are most welcome to criticise any aspect of the british way of life they please. The evidence is though, that countries which are more committed to human rights are better off in standards of living, education, life expectancy. They would be making a rod for their own back, as they would find themselves explaining why thousands of their own compatriots emigrate for countries like ours.

    “The most visible gay people are appallingly uncivilised.”
    Who is harmed by these actions? I have seen no evidence of people ‘cruising’ – but what is wrong with people using gay pride as an opportunity to find a mate? What is wrong with celebrating sexiness? Pride after all is a festival, a party, where people come to have a good time. No one is forced to look or attend. Like, Ibiza, or the Love Parade, or the Notting Hill Carnival. Or for that matter, the Maastricht Carnaval. Tell me, why you think people at Pride are any less ‘civilised’ than at any of these events….

    “My opinions…are just as valid.”
    No opinions areequally valid. Your opinions have the same right to be heard, and should be put under the same level of scrutiny. But that cannot make them equally valid.

    “So tough tits.”
    Now we’re talking…. that’s just how I like them.

  30. Perhaps the word “civilized” could be better defined. It remains a mystery to many of us why the Polish people supported a religious leader of international acclaim who declared not too long ago that homosexuals were inherently evil.

    Can such a religion be described as civilized? Europe can still smell the stench of the burning flesh of countless homosexuals who, according to today’s scientific studies, were basically and simply being themselves, but who were condemned to a cruel death by a man-made religion.

    At the same time Chinese emperors were enjoying same-sex relationships without a second thought.

    There is also evidence that a same-sex couple was burried in an ancient tomb located in the ancient necroplis of Saqqara dating back to the 5th Dynasty in Old Kingdom Egypt.

    If I remember correctly, the remains of the couple, who had been royal attendants, were brought to light in 1964 when the Egyptian archeologist Ahmed Moussa discovered a series of tombs with rock-cut passages in the escarpment facing the causeway that led to the pyramid of Unas.

    The American scholar Greg Reed has translated the hieroglyphics to reveal the names of these two ancient same-sex male lovers: Niankhkhhnum and Khnumhotep.

    Who of us would deny that the Egyptians were a highly civilized people? Yet, they celebrated love in all its forms.

    The very notion of civilization can be ambivalent, then, do you not agree?

  31. Monkeychops wrote

    If Polish diplomats started harping on about how overly liberal we were in allowing “abominations”, there would just as much outrage.

    – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – –

    When you use the word abominations you lets some thing slip.

    The word “Abominations” reveals more about you than it does the Polish or the diplomat.

    If or not an exgay christian fundamentalist . . . why are you using the language of an exgay christian fundamentalist?

  32. Part of Monkeychops Sermon

    “If Polish diplomats started harping on about how overly liberal we were in allowing “abominations”, there would just as much outrage.”

    – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – –

    When you use the word abominations you lets some thing slip.

    The word “Abominations” reveals more about you than it does the Polish or the diplomat.

    If you are not an exgay christian fundamentalist . . . why are you using the language of an exgay christian fundamentalist?

  33. “why are you using the language of an exgay christian fundamentalist?”

    Because I think he is one, JohnK. He suddenly appears on this site, lambaste anyone who doesn’t agree with him, uses anti-gay language, defends christian beliefs, has an issue with “camps”, talks about gays like he’s not one of us, doesn’t like to be challenged………

    ……..there’s no smoke without fire. Jean Paul is right:- He’s an imposter here to stir shit.

  34. Trix . . . I suspected this, I have been observing Monkeychops on more recent threads. It is interesting how he leads people of topic in to debating his rather narrow world view, and as you point out he then lambaste anyone who does not agree with him.

    I agree one can only draw the conclusion as stated previously

  35. Monkeychops 18 Jun 2009, 10:25am

    John K/Trix – You guys really are paranoid aren’t you? Why shouldn’t I be allowed to disagree with you if you don’t agree with me – you are doing that to me right now! Is it one rule for you and no-one else? And why can’t I use the word “abominations” (in inverted commas also) without being a Christian Fundamentalist? It’s how we have been referred to by Polish leaders in the past. So John K, that is such a daft point to make. It’s akin to me talking about Jihads when I have never put one on anyone. I presume you have used the term Jihad without ever having been an Islamic fundamentalist? Be consistent at least.

    If you are a camp gay, then yes, I am not “one of you”, as you put it. I am however, a non-camp gay guy. Which I keep saying and which you choose to ignore at your convenience as some rather strange way of convincing yourself I’m an ex-gay Christian fundie. If that’s what you want to believe, then go ahead, but given that you have no evidence to do so, isn’t that as stupid as believing in a God you cannot see? You can convince yourself anything is the truth if you really want to. Be a bit more observant….look through all my posts and you’ll see my points are consistent – I defend free speech (from us and religious groups alike), I am happy to consider myself homosexual, but I don’t agree with how a certain section of the gay world behaves. Like I would consider myself British but don’t like football hooligans or binge-drinkers vomiting in the street. Doesn’t make me any less British does it? No, of course not, that’s insane. Does it make me anti-British as well? No. I thoroughly believe in human rights, but I also believe in human responsibilities – which I think many minorities have never really taken on board. The more rights you get given, the more you have to take responsibility for yourself and the actions of your minority. Seems fair, right? We can’t be on an equal footing with the rest of society yet behave inappropriately or still claim to be victims that need looking after all the time. It’s very typical of some very insecure people on here to assume that you either have to be camp and gay or not-camp and in denial/anti-gay. Saying I am not-camp but gay is no different to saying I am not-white but British (I’m actually white, but we’re talking about minorities here). In either case, I’m still part of our society, just a different participant to you.

    You don’t have to agree with me on any of my points, but being so narrow-minded as to assume that I am some kind of religious terrorist because I won’t agree with you isn’t making me what to engage with you. Challenge my views, I’ll always justify them – lots of people on here have and they get a response. But hypothesising about me and getting it very wrong means you should just stay on the fringes where you deserve.

  36. Someone may want to investigate the activities of this polish cartoonist living in London:
    www lifesitenews com/ldn/2009/jun/09061911.html

  37. And these are the people that “Dave’s” Tories have formed a new partnership in Europe with. Nice one “Dave”.

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