Beth makes a good point.
Go out to any city centre on a Saturday night and you’ll find dickhead girls kissing eachother for the ‘thrills’ of even bigger dickhead lads.
Yes these same men will recoil or even act violently when confronted with two males kissing.
These stupid girls like Katy Perry attract attention from straight males which is, quite frankly, not wanted or needed.
I’m sorry, but I luvs me some Katy Perry!
Any person who is classed as a ‘Gay Icon’ even though not gay themselves can be put on the cover of a Mag. If some drug-crazed pop singer says or dose anything to offend Gay culture, who cares?
I just think Katy Perry is a bit of a tit to be honest. The Yanks have modelled her on Lily Allen/Winehouse to be this kooky English type personality.
So manufactured. But Hot N Co!ld isn’t a bad tune!
For once I actually agree with Beth Ditto. I thought it was a stupid, idiotic song and I’m fed up with lesbians only being seen as titillation for straight men. I’ve lost count of the offensive comments I’ve received when holding my girlfriend’s hand in public. What pisses me off is that the same straight men who sit at home w*nking to titillating girl/girl porn, get really pissed off when they see lesbians in real life – as though women only exist to provide sexual entertainment to men so how dare they not like men at all.
Katy Perry’s pathetic song didn’t help.
Personally I don’t see the fuss at all. If straight girls want to ‘play gay’, and be flippant about sexuality – well, they aren’t kissing me, why should I care? It’s just playing around, experimentation. It’s super, it’s natural, it’s in our genes to experiment sexually. If you are intimidated or offended by this, I guess you have personal insecurities you need to be dealing with.
beth Ditto sounds like a sanctimonious matron in a carry on film. Like the news announcer says 10 minutes before Match of the Day: If you don’t want to know the score, look away now.
It’s interesting: the men don’t see the problem, but the women do. May be she should have used “lesbian” instead of “gay” culture? But then, does “gay” refer only to men only or not?
I don’t say Beth is right or wrong – but it would be interesting if a straight man did something similar – and see what respone came from certain gay men…
Whats the big deal…. bisexuality does happen…. don’t get worked up about it… it is hetrosexualities hang ups that causes the problems which diversity of sexualities… don’t let us get all essentalist about it!!!!
The big deal is that for most people the prominant ‘representation’ of lesbians is as faux lesbian porn for men. It makes lesbianism something dirty i.e. ‘it’s not what good girls do.’ It’s about men continuing to own a part of female sexuality that should have nothing to do with them. It’s the assumption that lesbianism is an invitation for a threesome and that all lesbians are waiting for the right man. My girlfriend and I regularlly get inappropriate comments which can make us feel uncomfortable and threatened.
When straight women are paraded as bisexual examples they not only erode bixexual acceptance they’re making a mockery of it.
Katy Perry, Beth Ditto, freaking American Idol… this makes me even more glad I don’t listen to that pop music trash.
Was thinking about this the other day while watching a segment Tyra Banks did on her chat show about bar-sexuals.
I know it’s a free world and everything, and Katy perry probably didn’t mean to offend, she probably didn’t even think about it at all – but that’s the problem. There are so many girls today that would kiss another girl without any hesitation to get the attention of the guys, but they’re just exploiting lesbian sexuality for attention while promoting a bad promiscuous image for the sexuality, and not even being true to it in the first place.
A lot of real gay women don’t kiss their girlfriends and get all the attention. A lot of real gay women kiss their girlfriends and get beaten up. So show some respect.
I don’t know what all the fuss is… maybe I’m a gay bloke and it doesn’t effect me the same, but if some straight male singer had a hit with “I kissed a boy… I liked it” I would simply be glad that gay culture had reached the point of cultural acceptance where it was seen as something straight guys wanted to emulate.
I know that in the words of Jarvis Cocker “everybody hates a tourist, especially one who thinks it’s all such a laugh…” but on the other hand imitation is the sincerest form of flattery!
I’d sooner have that than Beenie man’s homophobic rants any day.
Katy Perry is offensive to gays. Her video of ‘I kissed a girl’ depicts her waking up from a dream of kissing a girl, looking relieved that she’s in the arms of her boyfriend.
If the song were sung by a man about kissing a man, it would not have been as popular – perhaps, it would only have been played in gay venues.
I’m surprised that more people have not complained about her.
Jess: “It’s about men continuing to own a part of female sexuality that should have nothing to do with them.”
Perfectly put. And it’s also about all the straight girls who play up to that. So NOT about people being bisexual or experimenting.
Flapjack, I agree re it being preferable to Beenie man but it’s still not good, and, although the song is not at all aggressive in its own right, it just contributes to the situation that many lesbians find themselves in. And that’s not paranoia. My girlfriend and I have had that song sung at us when we’ve been followed in the street, then we’ve been verbally abused and shoved. Yes, the people who did that were idiots, but they get their ideas from somewhere, and this subtle putting down of women and lesbians even more so is just nasty.
What I find offensive are humorless lesbians who think they own same-sex homoeroticism and “gay culture” and feel like they can dictate how other people express their sexuality, flirtations, and bi-curious titillations. Sanctimonious prudes all of them.
It’s hard to live in this world, so I want to find the half in my life. But it is very hard, because I’m a bisexual girl. As a famous writer said in __seekbi-com_ that “No matter we are gay, lesbian, bisexual or transgender, our heart is full of love. And we also hope to have life-long love” Most of us like-minded people deeply moved by her honest words. Thanks for making us accepted by others. We are really proud of us
Unfortunately, the “style” Beth Ditto endorses merely reinforces the stereotype that lesbians are fat, dykey and have a huge chip on their shoulders. She dresses in a very trashy way, sporting hot pants that she can barely fit into, tits pouring out and all whilst claiming it to be some philosophically-deep form of new-age freedom. In reality, she just draws negative attention. And it undermines her highly respectable singing talent. Katy Perry’s take, whilst not a particularly sophisticated move, is simpy using another branch of the school of thought that “sex and provocation sells”. If it were in a straight context, this debate wouldn’t be happening. It’s only gays and lesbians that seem to have a problem with it, but perhaps they feel it’s their territory. Which is incredibly illiberal and backward in my view.
Iris and Jess – you both put that so much more eloquently than I did, I salute you both!
That song is using lesbianism as something to titillate straight males with; when in reality lesbianism is none of their business.
I accept that gay men will not find this offensive, but maybe when straight women watch degrading ‘gay’ porn, follow you down the street, harass you and threaten you with rape you would get pissed off when a straight male singer panders to them – the very people you want nothing to do with.
Beth Ditto’s behaviour endorses the stereotype that lesbians are overweight dykes with short hair. And the way she dresses (hotpants that are ten sizes too small and boobs hanging out all over the place) reveals a distinct lack of self-respect and class. Shame, as she is very talented singer and that’s what she should be noted for. Instead, she harps on about “gay culture” (what is that by the way? Unless she means acting like a slut and crying homophobia every five seconds) and how it is being eroded. Katy Perry, whilst not being very sophisticated in this pursuit, is merely adhering to an established school of though that “sex and provocation sell heaps”. It’s true and gays buy into it as much as straights. Perhaps Miss Ditto has an issue with someone using her territory as for her being a lesbian is obviously a majorly defining part of her personality. For many of us, it isn’t and thus we don’t have the same chips on our shoulders. Katy Perry doing this is no different to Another Level singing about licking a girl up and down. It’s about sex, pure and simply. If you don’t have a hierarchy of sexualities fixed in your brain, then you’ll be fine with it. It would thus appear that Miss Ditto finds lesbianism inferior to hetersexual sex. I don’t, hence I have no problem with Katy Perry’s version. If anything, Katy is making a mockery out of lusty straight guys who think only with their penises. In just the same way as boyband’s homoeroticise everything to rake in the pink pound.
I agree with Lezabella on everything except one point – I’m a gay man and I find that song offensive! Just because I’m not a lesbian doesn’t mean I can’t empathise :)
Seriously, the song is a crass attempt to sell records. Take some examples of the lyrics:
“It felt so wrong, it felt so right, don’t mean I’m in love tonight”
“You’re my experimental game”
“It’s not what good girls do, not how they should behave”
If the song was a celebration of bi-curiosity, why use language that is derogatory towards non-hetero behaviour?
Don’t even get me started on Perry’s awful “Ur so gay” – an offensive attempt to stereotype “gay behaviour”. Those people who don’t care about such songs, or think they’re harmless, are ignoring the fact that the younger generation listen to such things and believe that such an attitude is acceptable. It’s a similar message to Chris Moyles’s use of the word “gay” – that’s just as bad!
Lezabella – you make a good point. I think there is a subtle difference between lesbian and gay cultural boundaries. Straight guys traditionally fall over themselves in the scramble to distance themselves from anything that looks even remotely gay, but will often get turned on by lesbian porn. The reverse isn’t so much the case with gay porn and straight girls. Lesbian porn doesn’t seem to feature heavily in lesbian culture and it’s usually straight guys that watch it. Straight guys wouldn’t generally be caught dead watching a gay porno, and the majority of straight girls aren’t turned on by man-on-man action either.
I guess the closest the gay community gets to what the lesbian community has to put up with is the type of girls who crowd out gay bars on their hen nights to have a good laugh at the freakshow, but we seldom get hit on unless they mistaken us for straight.
I think perhaps it’s the last vestiges of our patriarchal past that you girls still get to be the object of straight guys sexual fantasies whether you want to be or not.
“Don’t even get me started on Perry’s awful “Ur so gay” – an offensive attempt to stereotype “gay behaviour”. Those people who don’t care about such songs, or think they’re harmless, are ignoring the fact that the younger generation listen to such things and believe that such an attitude is acceptable. It’s a similar message to Chris Moyles’s use of the word “gay” – that’s just as bad!”
Spot on Mark. That ‘Ur so gay’ song is ridiculous and you can take it as a joke and in good humour to an extent but you can still recognise that ultimately it’s offensive and derogatory. Imagine a song called ‘Ur so black’ where she talks about silly Ali G-like stereotypes; there would be murder over it and rightly so.
“I guess the closest the gay community gets to what the lesbian community has to put up with is the type of girls who crowd out gay bars on their hen nights to have a good laugh at the freakshow, but we seldom get hit on unless they mistaken us for straight.I think perhaps it’s the last vestiges of our patriarchal past that you girls still get to be the object of straight guys sexual fantasies whether you want to be or not.”
I agree Flapjack. It is to do with the old patriachal thinking of men having control over everything. Straight men that is, not you guys :) But they just need to wake up and realise that ‘lesbian’ means ‘gay’, the same as ‘gay’ for a gay man means gay. And I think porn has a lot to do with it. I have seen girl on girl porn and it’s awful! And a man always seems to enter into the scene aswell. But that’s the thing, straight men think that’s what lesbians do, We mess about until the ‘real’ sex begins.
As for hen nights in gay bars, yes I’ve seen those. That’s another weird thing, gay men have ‘fag hags’ et al but straight men do not hang around with gay women in the same sense. Strange.
You just can’t please some people. You highlight peoples sexuality, you get hauled over the coals. You actually support other people’s sexuality in a song and some fat dyke throws a wobbly.
I remember years ago at Pride, my BF thought it highly amusing to wear a “Nobody knows I’m a Lesbian” T-Shirt. Everyone took it in the light it was intended, both gay, str8, gay and lesbian. However it wasnt long before some Diesel took offence and claimed it was “exploiting wimmin”.
Beth Ditto really needs to get out more.
So many angry people on here! Anyway, I was having a wank the other day while thinking about Katy Perry kissing a girl, and I liked it. Then I suddenly thought of her kissing that fat and disgusting sweaty pig, Beth Ditto, and I totally lost my boner.
By the way, RIGHT-ON Jack, my thoughts exactly!
As stated in my previous post RobN, if it was the other way around and gay men got aggressively harassed all the time by women, and a male singer pretended to be gay in a song and said he liked girls; maybe you wouldn’t like it? Because that singer is taking the piss out of and using your way of life to tease/please the very people you want nothing to do with.
When have you ever been followed with your boyfriend by a gang of girls threatening to rape you? When have you ever seen a gang of girls at a bar there solely to perv on what you and your gay male friends get up to? When have you ever been pestered in a bar by a woman even AFTER you’ve told her you’re gay? When have you ever seen or heard of a gang of women salivating over gay porn? When has a woman ever sexualised you????? – Now imagine you’ve that has happened and that you’ve experienced all of this for years (YEARS), and then imagine a that male singer pretends to be gay and sings about kissing boys all for the sole reason of entertaining the very group of girls, who have at times, made your life hell. Still OK with it?
But because you don’t and never will experience what lesbians put up with all the time, you don’t understand why we’re a bit annoyed.
I’ve now heard you say such things as ‘queen’, ‘fat dyke’and ‘Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve’…….I’m beginning to wonder whether you have issues!
I also agree with Jack
I’m a fat stereotypical dyke with short hair and I likes Katy Perry, wouldn’t mind if I was the girl she kissed and liked it!
However, unlike Beth Ditto I dress to my size and would NEVER wear hotpants – just ew, no!
As far as looks are concerned and me being shallow – Katy Perry, Hell yes I would! ;-) Beth Ditto, eugh no, dress sensibly, shave your pits and wash your hair once in a while you ming-bag!
Lezabella: That’s the second time you have misquoted me. Stop putting fucking words in my mouth! I HATE the term Adam & Steve and would NEVER use it! (Shitty American cliché). As for “Queen” and “Dyke” they are in common use by both str8′s and gays, and frankly, if the cap fits, wear it.
As for the actual argument, if it was a str8 guy pretending to be gay, why not? There was a phase a few years ago of straight men hanging around gay bars pretending to be gay and then picking up all the fag hags. (“Oh! I’m gay, you’ll never turn me!”) – They were amusingly called “Pink Panthers”.
Frankly, I wouldn’t give a toss, let’s face it, there are many closet queens out there pretending to me straight, many married but having a bit on the side, so why not the other way? Why does everything have to be pigeonholed just so you can associate with it? The two “gay” actors in Will & Grace are straight. They are pretending,/i> *shock!* *horror!*
As usual, the LGBT lefties feign apoplexy over a storm in a “D” cup.
Unfortunately, hate crime is a slippery slope. If you’re being told (by the media and through those cutesy little songs whose chorus really gets you squealing) that being gay is something “wrong” that “good [people] don’t do” and panders to outdated, cliched stereotypes, then you begin to accept those ideas. From there it’s all too easy to start attacking those “differences” before attacking people WITH those differences. Parties like the BNP spread such ideas and I can’t see a queue of gay people clambering to excuse them! Or perhaps it’s because they don’t have a catchy enough tune.
While it may be true that activism sometimes seem to lack a sense of humour, a lot of the time it’s necessary to maintain the fight for equality. By all means make excuses for discriminatory behaviour if you want but why criticise the people who see such things as something to speak out against?
There are plenty of people struggling with their sexual identity. Imagine if one poor kid actually took Perry’s advice to “hang yourself with your H&M scarf”. Would it be so inoffensive then?
Amazing, the gay community which moans so much about body fascism and the oppression of the scene but more than happy to bash fat people WE HATE OURSELVES AND TAKE IT OUT ON ANY AND EVERYONE WE CAN – ESPECIALLY EACH OTHER. WE NEED TO SEEK HELP!
I don’t need anything to be pigeonholed to relate to it; and since you don’t know me, for you to make that assumption shows arrogance.
“As usual, the LGBT lefties feign apoplexy over a storm in a “D” cup.”
And for a supposed gay man, you do quite a lot of gay bashing; and have an unhealthy obsession with ‘lefties’ and labelling people as such. Leftophobia? I bet a Marxist-Leninist would make you poo your pants! :)
“When have you ever been followed with your boyfriend by a gang of girls threatening to rape you? When have you ever seen a gang of girls at a bar there solely to perv on what you and your gay male friends get up to? When have you ever been pestered in a bar by a woman even AFTER you’ve told her you’re gay? When have you ever seen or heard of a gang of women salivating over gay porn? When has a woman ever sexualised you????”
You did NOT pay attention to what I wrote here, I’m not talking about straight men pretending to be gay to pick up fag hags; that’s immaterial to my point and a bit desperate of these men. I’m talking about how would you like it if you were being aggressivley harassed, sexualised and objectified by women. Which, I’m guessing (from the fact that you didn’t acknowledge it) has never happened.
This happens to lesbians every day in society, in the street, the pub, the media -everywhere! Most of it you can ignore, but when this aggressive sexualisation of you by men is there 24/7 you start to get pissed off, big time!
So yeah, I am pissed off at some American bint using my sexuality and culture/sub-culture (whatever) to tease and engage the very people in society who have caused me the most trouble and whom I want nothing to do with.
As for Will & Grace, I’m not arsed about that because in this sense it’s different for gay men. Perhaps if they had Will and Jack kissing and doing sex scenes all the time for the sole entertainment of women you might be pissed off. However, straight women are not like that and do not want to see this.
So until you’re treated by women, like a lesbian is by men; you will never, ever understand. But you’ve never been, and never will on the sacale we have, so I’m trying to put YOU in OUR shoes. That’s all. Just put yourself in our shoes for a minute and completely turn the tables. You’ll see.
I think Lezabella, it about her sexuality and not about yours, and whilst there might be few relevant points that people could make about the song, your posting does make you seem like you’re a complete man-hater.
Just because you have a few hang-ups about men, does not mean you shoould feel the need to, or have the right to try to superimpose them on others.
Its a cheerly little song, that might arguably be a bit irreverent, as has already been said, but you could equally argue that it helps to mainstream homosexuality and re-enformce positive imagery of being gay to people bouncing around a dance floor having a good time to a little ditty about some pretty girl’s lesbian-esque antics.
All part of the ever popular victim mentality to twist it all around to something negative when its not.
I am specifically speaking about aggressive straight men who harass and sexualise lesbians.
I am NOT talking about normal men, like my friends, father and siblings who do not share a shred of the attitude that I’m referring to.
If I was trying to ‘impose’ (superimpose doesn’t make sense!) my ideas then this would be put across as “I’m right blah blah blah”. Whereas if you actually read my posts you’ll see that all I have tried to do is explain an experience that many, many lesbians go through; and then try and get RobN to empathise by putting himself in our position.
There is absoloutely nothing wrong with that and it is a reasonable way to discuss and/or debate.
I think your problem if the fact that you don’t like WHAT I’m saying as opposed to HOW I’m saying it.