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Evangelical groups call on Church of Scotland to back gay minister

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  1. Stewart Cowan 22 May 2009, 1:10pm

    I wouldn’t call these groups ‘evangelical’. Ultra-liberal, surely?

    1. As the person who wrote the Open Letter I can assure you that the groups are evangelical in the historic sense of the word. There is nothing in any of the Creeds, or statements of faith of evangelical organisations we would disagree with and would in fact hold to. Our theology of Scripture etc is the same as historic evangelicalism. The difference is over the interepretation on same-sex relationships. This is the same as when evangelicals have been divided over inter-racial marriage, slavery, role of women etc.
      CourageSCOTLAND

  2. How sad that Mr Rennie is being subjected to this farcical witch-hunt. He is qualified at his chosen career, and by all accounts is excellent in his role. So, after all this time for the judgemental conservative so-called “christians” (who are displaying no compassion whatsoever) to go after him, well, its sickening and its not way to treat anyone.

  3. Stewart Cowan 22 May 2009, 3:51pm

    George – a big part of being a Christian is to turn from sin, not accommodate it. If he fulfils his carnal lusts, whether homosexual or heterosexual outside of marriage, instead of being spiritually-minded then he is not ‘qualified’ and cannot give his best to his flock.

    How can you expect an unrepentant sinner to lead you in righteousness?

  4. Stewart – you are starting from a false premise: gay=sin. From what I have personally witnessed, christian=sin.

    I have personally witnessed the most vile opinions expressed by “Christians”. Fred Phelps is only the extreme end of a very long curve, all of whom are Christians. From southern baptists, to the pope, to the “Anglican communion” and even the Greek Orthodox, all have so-called leaders who incite hatred and support homophobia. (Not to mention all of the other activities up to and including murder, all in the name of Jesus)

    Do you repent of your sin, Stewart? By your rules you are guilty of sin; the sin of pride towards your chosen priest (that you set yourself up as more qualified to decide his suitability than those that chose him), and the sin of envy too (harping on about lust, you christians are always obsessed by what we do in bed). Your own rules make you unfit to judge him, and by your own rules, if you truly are the christian you claim to be, you should wash his feet in humility and beg his forgiveness for your sin.

    But you won’t will you? You are going to carry on being that evil creature: the christian, to whom the more apposite equation is christian=hypocrite.

    I am GLAD I am not a christian; your hypocrisy nauseates me. Do as you will with your priest; turn on him and bring him down since that seems to be your intent, you are a sham a false christian – if there was a true christ he would condemn you.

  5. Stewart Cowan 22 May 2009, 5:58pm

    Condemn me for what, Matt? Warning of the consequences of sin:

    “For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.” Rom 6:23

    I am a sinner, of course. I’m not saying I am better than anyone else and if you knew my past, you would understand where I’m coming from on that.

    What I don’t do is carry on sinning and pretending it’s okay. That is the road to Hell.

    Part of growing up is to learn to resist temptation; to win the spiritual battle against our carnal nature; to experience real joy.

  6. Stewart Cowan – Good luck attempting to dodge death. No-one’s ever managed it indefinately yet, but who knows, you could be the first.
    Personally my idea of hell is being stuck in the afterlife for eternity with a bunch of right wing evangelists. Your version actually sounds nicer.

  7. Stewart Cowan 22 May 2009, 7:45pm

    I remember you Flapjack. Your flippancy is still revealing your blindness.

  8. Aberdeenshire Minister 22 May 2009, 8:36pm

    Slight correction . . . It isn’t his “ordination” – (He is already ordained, otherwise he wouldn’t be minister of Brechin Cathedral) – it is his “Induction” to the charge of Queen’s Cross (Aberdeen) by the Presbytery of Aberdeen that is being objected to.

    We have got to keep things straight! LOL

  9. Aberdeenshire Minister 22 May 2009, 8:44pm

    Mr Cowan,

    As a fellow-Christian, I ask you – are you really serious about not acknowledging that other Christians have other views – based on what God has told them through “discernment”, “prayer” and listening to what God has told them?

    Or do you have the sole access to the mind of God?

  10. Aberdeenshire Minister 22 May 2009, 8:47pm

    And, please, Mr Cowan, don’t start hurling texts around . . . been there. Got that – the “polyester” argument, “shellfish”, “stoning of adulterers”. Yeah! Already been there!

    I wonder what our Lord Jesus Christ might have said to YOU – about “motes in eyes”! I am just wondering!

  11. Aberdeenshire Minister 22 May 2009, 8:52pm

    Please! A little more humility and a recognition that other Ministers may have other viewpoints.

    Was talking to a (retired) CofS Minister this week.

    Yes, he objected to the fact that Mr Rennie might be inducted to Queen’s Cross – BUT – he objected even more to the evangelical fundamentalist literalists telling HIM what he should think.

    Methinks that you are shooting yourself in your own foot!!

  12. Stewart Cowan 22 May 2009, 9:47pm

    Aberdeenshire Minister – you know I don’t have the sole access to the mind of the Almighty. What I have is the same as you – scriptures that tell us of His creation and why he made man and also made woman FOR man and how He expects us to leave our parents, find a wife and have children. Either that or be celibate.

    I’m not making the rules here, remember!

    Not sure what you’re trying to say in comment no. 10. I don’t adhere to the Mosaic law. As for adulterers, the Saviour told the adulteress to sin no more and she was NOT stoned.

    I know other ministers have different viewpoints on things. I cannot understand infant baptism, for example, but homosexual acts totally contravene the natural laws that our very Creator gave us.

    “Methinks that you are shooting yourself in your own foot!!”

    A little truth is a dangerous thing. The closer we get to the Lord’s return, the further people are distancing themselves from Him through submitting themselves to Satan. In this crazy age of political correctness, black might be white and up may be down, but the Almighty is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow.

    If you really are a minister, I hope you will remember that or you will be leading your flock to Hades.

  13. Not another religious fool who thinks he’s a conduit for god. This site gets more of these fools than a christian youth concert.

    Leading his flock to Hades? Get a life, Stewart! “Homosexual acts totally contravene the natural laws” only in your mind. And no one really give too hoots what a another religious fool thinks, you kind is a dying breed… and not a moment too soon.

  14. The Old Testament has been fulfilled by the coming of Christ and his message of love – spoken straight from God. Does any Christian honestly believe that they can use the Old Testament to justify excluding gay people from the Ministry or the Priesthood. If being homosexual is anathema to God why didn’t Christ say something about it in his few recorded words which have survived to the present day.

    Christians, well, thinking Christians, and the power of thought is God-given, don’t believe that the Bible is the literal transcribed Word of God as if had been dictated to some human mortal as some sort of shorthand taking secretary to the Divine mind. They know that it is an inspired word filtered through the fallible minds of men.

    The Apostles were men, St. Paul was a man. Their minds were tainted and corrupted and governed by the prejudices and understandings of the times they lived in and they filtered the Divine as it was revealed to them through their corrupted and tainted minds. We have different corruptions and different understandings and we will filter the living and ongoing message of the Holy Spirit through our minds and we will, as Christ intended, interpret His message of love and of tolerance in ever more broader ways as our understanding of all the various practices of humanity grows and as we mature, as He commanded, into tolerant servants of the Divine will.

    The Bible is not, nor can it ever be, a rule book. It’s a history of where we have come from and over half of it has been fulfilled by Christ’s Passion and we have to move on, as He commanded, and conquer our base inclinations and to look for rules of life in the modern half, the New Testament half, for Christ told us to! At best the Bible is a guide but at worst it’s a prison – a catalogue of our past mistakes and a warning that we have to do better – that we have to move on and express the love of God and the forgiveness to be found in Christ in positive ways.

    The truth of Christianity cannot be found in the Bible nor can it be found in any form of strict Biblical conformity. The truth of the Church resides in the movement of the Holy Spirit within the body of believing Christians. The Holy Spirit moves us towards love, towards tolerance, towards equality for all men and women, for that is the Christ’s message. The Bible does not, nor should it, define the Church. The Church defines the Bible for it is the Church, inspired by God through His Spirit and the Christ, which defines the Bible. All the words in that book were selected by the Church, moving with the Spirit. Those words were selected in a different day and age – an age when words ported different meanings and feelings. The Spirit still moves us and we, today, imbue the Words with new meanings, with greater love and with a vastly more increased tolerance than St. Paul, or the Holy Apostles, could ever have imagined in their human frailty.

    Why do we do this? Because the Spirit still moves us and because the Christ still walks amongst us and improves our minds and our understandings. He, and the Holy Spirit, have moved countless millions of us into a new understanding of what it means to be an LGBT person – and with that new understanding those of us who have learnt anew the mesage of love cannot withhold the benisons of priesthood and ministry from any man, or woman, simply on the basis of gender or sexual orientation.

    We have gained a new understanding of sacramental committment to ones partner – a deeper understanding driven by Him and the Spirit. I hope that we have also acquired a better understanding of God’s love.

    The truth of the Church does not lie in the Bible – it lies in the Church, and in the Spirit Who moves it, and in the Love in Christ for all men and women which drives, should drive, us Christians!

    If all you’ve got from Christianity is a Biblically derived set of rules based on a belief derived from a ancient book which you have elevated to iconic levels then you don’t have Faith – you merely worship a book! Now that’s really stupid, isn’t it?

  15. Stewart Cowan – My flippancy is still revealing my blindness huh? Well at least I’m not the one pointing to beings who aren’t there in any self-evident tangeable form (let alone visible) and telling anyone who can be bothered to listen they’ve come to judge them.
    Maybe it’s time for a visit to the opticians yourself?

  16. Stewart Cowan 23 May 2009, 1:57pm

    Flapjack – I’ve just read this. Do you recognise yourself?

  17. Stewart Cowan 23 May 2009, 2:14pm

    John M.J. – you are articulate and seem to have convinced yourself of the lie that ‘we have to move on,’ in other words, change Christ’s words.

    “If being homosexual is anathema to God why didn’t Christ say something about it?”

    Why didn’t he talk about paedophilia, bestiality or necrophilia? Because everyone understood all these sexual sins were wrong.

    You mentioned LGBT. Are you really trying to tell me that if a bisexual sleeps with Man A on Day 1, Woman A on Day 2, Man 2 on Day 3 and Woman 2 on Day 4, then that person has the Lord’s blessing?

    It is sexual depravity – it is carnal and it wars against the Soul. I put it to you that any sexual relationship outside of marriage is anathema to the Almighty.

    As for the Bible being the ‘literal transcribed Word of God’. The Pentateuch was given by the Almighty to Moses and of course includes the instruction that a man leaves his father and mother, finds a wife and has children. Christ repeats this.

    So for you to say it’s not literal and we don’t need the Bible is just unbelievable. You are just trying to justify your behaviour by modifying or ignoring scripture.

    You’d better stop, because you seem to be walking down the broad way that leads to death. I say this out of love and concern.

  18. Stewart Cowan – Yes I do recognise myself. Whatddaya know, reality is boring. Guilty as charged.
    Perhaps I could make myself more interesting by creating an imaginary friend who hates your guts, whose arbitary opinions gleaned from a storybook about him act as the final retort to any empirical evidence based opinion you might have. You could describe that as interesting, but it’s usually the pre-cursor to a heavy phorosine perscription.
    And might I remind you that you’ve already discounted most of the gods that have ever been worshipped, making you an atheist in all gods bar one. I just went one god further.

  19. Poor Stewart Cowen is another of those who suffers from religious mania, a serious mental illness which calls for incarceration in a mental hospital.

  20. “I say this out of love and concern”

    Er, no. You say that because you know no better and you’re fooling yourself. You’re an arsehole, who used “scripture” tro defend the fact you’re an arsehole. Its not really that complicated.

  21. Stewart Cowan 24 May 2009, 12:42am

    If that were true then 90% of the world’s population must be ****holes as well. There is a universal knowledge that homosexual activity is wrong. It’s not restricted to religion or geographically. I understand that guilt and shame must weigh you down and it makes you angry, but you can find forgiveness and a better life.

  22. david skinner 24 May 2009, 6:43am

    Stewart Cowan, it is a very sobering thing indeed to enter this site and I believe it is something that everyone who calls themselves a disciple of Christ should do, for it gives us a glimpse of hell. It also makes the word God only shine brighter in the darkness being created by the minds and spirits here that are being kept enchained until the day of judgement. Our most dangerous adversaries however are not the so- called vulnerable, bullied and “poor me” homophiles, bound and driven by their lusts, but those like John. M.J. who masquerade as fellow travellers but who in fact are wolves in sheep’s clothing: idolaters, priests of Baal and who will, as you say, lead many straight to perdition.

    Men like John. M. J, as Peter describes him , are springs without water and mists driven by a storm. Blackest darkness is reserved for him and others like him . For they mouth empty, boastful words and, by appealing to the lustful desires of sinful human nature, they entice people who are just escaping from those who live in error. They promise them freedom, while they themselves are slaves of depravity—for a man is a slave to whatever has mastered him. If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. Of John M.J. the proverbs are true: “A dog returns to its vomit,” and, “A sow that is washed goes back to her wallowing in the mud.”

    Faithful Stewart, be of good courage and strengthen those Scottish knees, but don’t cast your pearls before swine.

  23. Stewart, I do think that you rather missed my point. My point is this: the Bible is not, and cannot be, a rule book for all times for the Spirit still moves, Christ still lives and our Triune Godhead lives amongst us and with us and within us. Our God knows that we will improve our understanding of the world, the universe, which he has given to us, for He, in His mercy, gave to us the power of reason and the intellects to exercise that power. At best the words of Christ which have come down to us have been selected, filtered, through minds born of their own ages and steeped in the prejudices of those ages. We know that no record we have, not even the Bible, is the literal Word of God nor, in any sense whatsoever, is it a complete record; it is, rather, that Word filtered through the fallible minds of men and, as such, we have to implore the Holy Spirit to guide us and our ratiocinate powers. We have to pray to the Christ who still walks amongst us that we get things right. We know that they, those few Words which we have, are probably not even the exact words which the Christ spoke.

    Your reference to the Pentateuch and its origins is spurious. Moses, and all the other transmitters and copiers of those Scriptures, were merely mortal and fallible men who heard the Word and filtered it through their own minds. It is inevitable that their own prejudices will have coloured their interpretations of what they thought God was trying to tell them. God granted to each and every man in the very beginning the absolute freedom to accept or reject and that same grant of freedom applies to the Prophets, the transmitters and the copiers, the Apostles and all the Saints and to us. We are free men, and women, under God and our fallibilities and prejudices will always colour what we think we hear.

    Apart from that, Christ fulfilled the Old Testament – it’s over, it’s done with, it’s mere history! He preached a new message of love which re-affirms our abilities and our God-given right to move on and explore our worlds, our outer physical world and our inner spiritual world, physically, intellectually and spiritually.

    That message of love which shines through the New Testament and the early Church is, perhaps, best summed up by a quote from 1 John Ch. 4, V. 7: “Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God”. There is ample evidence that the early Church made no difference between homosexual love and heterosexual love and that for some few hundreds of years the early Church, arguably nearer to the Apostles and to Christ’s life than we are today, was quite comfortable in the solemnising same sex unions. Somewhere on my shelves is a book entitled “The Marriage of Difference” which copiously documents that fact. When I can find it I will let you know the author and the ISBN, but you can always use a well-known search-engine and find it for yourself.

    I think that you may be deliberately trying to confusing promiscuous sexual behaviour, mere gratification of the flesh, with love: that you are attempting to deny that the love which leads to an intense and sexual, long-term and loyal union between two people can exist between two members of the same sex by deliberately introducing such carnalities as bestiality, paedophilia, necrophilia and serial monogamy into this debate is, I think, a deliberately confusing tactic. You know, at least as well as I do, that sexual activity between human beings is based, and must be based, upon the principle of the giving, or withholding, of mature, informed and willing consent in strict accordance with the absolute freedoms granted to each and every one of us by God. In situations where no willing, informed and mature consent to any act can be given then no act, sexual or otherwise, may take place. Love, in such situations, may be present (indeed, Christ commands that love must govern all our actions, and inactions: John 13:34-35 “A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another”) but actions based upon that love, no matter how fulfilling and splendid for one party or another, cannot take place where consent cannot be, for one reason or another, freely and voluntarily given (or withheld and honoured in its withholding, of course and as the natural corollary).

    We also know, as more papyrii are exhumed from the sands of the Egyptian and Sinai deserts, that there are many more writings by early Christians (in the immediate post-Crucifixion and Easter Resurrection period) than we had previously thought – and I’m not writing about Gnosticism or any other error of faith here – I’m writing about the very first generation of Christians who wrote down their own experiences at the hands of the Apostles and about Christians who were present at that first Pentecost. Our Church selected the Biblical books almost at random and as they came to hand. The texts are much corrupted and not, in many cases, as originally written. Many of the books of the New Testament cannot possibly have been written by those whom we think wrote them – they are of too late a date or they are conflations of many writings obviously put together many decades, sometimes a hundred or more years, after the events which they purport to describe verbatim, by the hands of others who were not present at the original events.

    However, the one overwhelming message which shines through, the one clarion call to humanity which we Christians believe to this day, is the message, the call of God through Christ, that we must operate, in all our actions, with love and forgiveness and understanding of the other, the difference from us, the difference from each and every one of us, for we are all different from each other. That is the glory, and the pain, of the absolute freedom which God has granted to us.

    It seems to me that you are prepared to live with, probably even enjoy and use, mankind’s advances in understanding in every field of science but not, for inexplicable reasons, in our new understandings in the field of human sexuality. Why is that, do you think? Is our Faith, for you, really nothing more than a series of rules predicated in times of lesser understanding and knowledge, about what a man may, or may not, do with his penis, what a woman may, or may not, do with her clitoris and her vagina? Has love no place for you? Are you merely fixated on the mechanical act of sex to such an extent that you completely fail to see the operation of love? Can you not see the operation of the Living Spirit, and the Christ Who still walks amongst us, as people of any of the LGBT persuasions find their life partners and their great love, and their great love in Christ?

    I think that you are so fixated on the sexual act that you are in danger of erecting the precise nature of the sexual act as your talisman of God – you are in severe danger of forgetting about the love of God, the operation of the Holy Spirit and the near presence of Christ’s love and that you are beginning to erect the Bible and your own phobias about sex into a huge and impervious wall between you and our Saviour’s message of love.

    No, I am not changing Christ’s words – that is merely what you, in error, think that I am doing. I, unlike you, am living Christ’s fundamental message – the shining, wonderful, amazing message of love and forgiveness: the only message which has truly come down to us from the wreckage of our written Word, and the only message supported by the Spirit that moves us and the Christ Who still walks amongst us.

    You, and your small, rule-driven beliefs, are the fundamental danger to His message of love. You, and, to be fair, others like you, are in danger of turning His message into nothing more than some sort of sex-cult, some sort of tribal penis-cult. You ignore His message of love and demand of Him rules which He cannot give for we are made free. When He does not give you what you want you ignore Him and hark back to the very Scriptures which He fulfilled and nullified by His life, death and resurrection in your fruitless and pointless quest for rules.

    He gave you the rule – the one rule that exists above all others: “Love one another.”

    The Spirit moves, He walks and God is. That’s the rule. Live with it! Revelation didn’t stop when Christ was crucified and rose again on the third day. Nowhere in our historical record, in our Scriptures, is that advanced as a serious argument. It’s ongoing, for the Spirit still moves and He still walks amongst us.

    Everything else, they are just your own prejudices which you, alone, are responsible for (and you alone will have to answer for, as I will, before His throne, for my own prejudices); they are just the products of your own mind and your denial of the real, living presence of Christ and the Spirit. You cannot love, within Christ’s meaning of that word, any LGBT believing person and simultaneously deny such a person any role in God’s one true Church without either denying the validity of His Church or the validity of His message transmitted to us by Christ or the validity of the living Spirit of God which moves and quickens us all.

    I have a sense that you are desperately casting around for a reason to vilify and hate LGBT people when, in fact, Christ commanded that that is unprofitable and that you should be seeking out reasons for love. I don’t think, at this moment, that He would be proud of you – but of one thing I am certain, He will forgive you and your transgressions against His love as He will forgive me mine. He will forgive you your hubris as He will forgive me mine. We are equal in that, at any rate. Be a little humble, if you can, for He is watching us, you know.

  24. david skinner 24 May 2009, 7:47am

    Well Stewart, there you have it,straight from the horse’s mouth. One could not get a clearer rendition of apostacy, heresy and idolatry if one had gone to Satan himself. Deception, delusion, denial, distraction and finally death. It is all there.

  25. Church of Scotland 1 Homophobes and Haters 0

  26. david skinner 24 May 2009, 8:34am

    No Brenton the Battle was won two thousand years ago at Calvary. Likewise the second world war was one on the day that the allies landed on the Normandy beaches. However it required the allies to press and regain all the territory that the enemy had occupied. More troops lost their lives in this final mopping up phase than in the entire course of the war. It was only when the allies final reached Hitler’s headquarters that the war was completed.

    C.S Lewis also give this insight :

    Why is God landing in this enemy-occupied world in disguise and starting a sort of secret society to undermine the devil? Why is He not landing in force, invading it? Is it that He is not strong enough? Well, Christians think He is going to land in force; we do not know when. But we can guess why He is delaying. He wants to give us the chance of joining His side freely. I do not suppose you and I would have thought much of a Frenchman who waited till the Allies were marching into Germany and then announced he was on our side. God will invade. But I wonder whether people who ask God to interfere openly and directly in our world quite realise what it will be like when He does. When that happens, it is the end of the world. When the author walks on to the stage the play is over. God is going to invade, all right: but what is the good of saying you are on His side then, when you see the whole natural universe melting away like a dream and something else–something it never entered your head to conceive — comes crashing in; something so beautiful to some of us and so terrible to others that none of us will have any choice left? For this time it will be God without disguise; something so overwhelming that it will strike either irresistible love or irresistible horror into every creature. It will be too late then to choose your side. There is no use saying you choose to lie down when it has become impossible to stand up. That will not be the time for choosing: it will be the time when we discover which side we really have chosen, whether we realised it before or not. Now, today, this moment, is our chance to choose the right side. God is holding back to give us that chance. It will not last for ever. We must take it or leave it.

  27. David Skinner/ Exactly where did I apostasise, where, in your opinion, did I commit heresy, where, exactly did I raise an idol and where, oh where, did I depart from Christ’s message of love and forgiveness and enter Shaitan’s territory? Tell me, if you can, where I attemped to deceive you, and where, exactly and in accordance with Christ’s message of love, was I delusional, or in denial, of His all-encompassing message of forgiveness? How did I distract, exactly, the faithful from Christ and His message? Why do I deserve death, presumably at your hands – in contravention of the fifth Commandment.

    It’s so easy to level accussations and sneer at honest folks who merely live the life. Now justify your statements – but please, don’t use the discredited maunderings of ancient and discredited theologians. And please, don’t threaten me with death at your hands again – that’s just the sort of cheap sensationalism that ruins and discredits you.

    Such hatred you exhibit! Do you you think that Christ is proud of you for threatening my death? Do you think that you are a fine exemplar of faith for threatening death against a fellow, but different, believer?

    Christ affirms all life. Using Him to pronounce death upon others is an unworthy act – and you know it!

    I forgive you your ill-wishing upon me, and I pray to God to forgive you also – for your hatred and for your wishing of death upon another human being. The evil in your soul will be washed clean by Him, that I know and I will always hold you in my prayers and dear in my heart. At the end of time I will ask Him to release you and to forgive you and will pray to Him that he might forgive you.

    I love you, brother in Christ, despite the fact which you exhibit all too plainly, that you hate me. I love you with all my Cristian heart, in Christ, forever.

  28. david skinner 24 May 2009, 9:10am

    John who said that I was out to kill you? Judgement and vengeance belong to God. Christ said that the only one we are to fear is He has the power to throw us into Hell and from where I am looking you are just about hanging on by your finger tips. May I make a suggestion: start to read the Bible and ask the Holy Spirit to lead you into ALL its TRUTH.

  29. Ah, now I get it! You raise up the Book against God. The Spirit moves, Christ walks, God is. The Book is just some cardboard and some paper which you, and others like you, substitute for God. You have no understanding of Faith or of the message of Christ. All you want is rules. The living Church of Christ, driven by the Spirit and He who walks amongst us still, is the One True Faith.

    You have only the Book. I pity you, for the reality of the Living Christ has no place in your heart.

    Christ lives and walks. The Spirit moves. God is.

  30. I see that the very seriously mentally ill David Skinner has appeared again. Is it not time that he was sectioned because of his rabid religious mania,

  31. Unfortunately, another religious maniac, namely John M.J. has appeared. He too should be confined in a lunatic asylum!

  32. The “holy spirit”, Skinner?

    Your mean the imaginary deity with a bipolar disorder? I mean he thinks he’s a chicken and shits fire on people’s heads, for crying out loud. Talk about the bum deal as gods go…. he really needs to renegotiate bis position. I’m guessing Jesus and his bitchy father gang up on him:- Jesus they can turn water to wine, and his mentally retarded father gets this kicks from asking blokes to kill their kids and torching random vegetation and talking through them to frighten people (according to that silly book), but the Holy Spirit just goes mindless fluttering around the sky landing on people’s head. What a bum deal. No wonder the devil doesn’t take him seriously… who would? Its a chicken, for heaven sake. What’s he going to do, lay an egg on Beelzebub? Drive him insane with his incessant tweeting? Peck his nose?

    The useless god award:- the holy spirit.

  33. LMAO @ Will.

    The holy chicken. Classic.

    Skinner, you’re an arse with delusions of being god. That’s grounds for incarceration, you freak.

  34. Brilliant Will! Just brilliant! And so very true, I just never thought of it that way.

    My fav line is “Your mean the imaginary deity with a bipolar disorder? I mean he thinks he’s a chicken and shits fire on people’s heads, for crying out loud.”. Very funny, man.

  35. david skinner 24 May 2009, 9:25pm

    bless you Tony, Orla, Will, Neville and John M J

  36. Did the holy chicken shit fire on your head, Skinner?

  37. Well, after that side splitting rendition of the “hold chicken”, which was classic Will, David can only come back with “Bless you”. How lame. He’s as funny as he is smart….

  38. John M J – I choose not to worship god, but I do respect your words. It is nice to see a person who knows their faith standing up against the rabid idiots who usually post here, a la David Skinner.

  39. Ah damn – oh for an edit function! First line should read “I choose not to workship *your* god…”

  40. Will (Comment #32) brilliant, simply brilliant. I love it!

    Skinner, you’re one of natures losers. You’re out classed, out manoeuvred, our thought, and out witted here. Keep quoting the bible, its all your capable of.

  41. Recently I found a hot club

    __SeekBi–com___

    Just for sexy gals and guys to find their cupid. Come on, tall singles. Don’t miss your lover.

  42. Leilah, it’s OK. I understand exactly what you meant – despite the lck of an ‘edit’ function! Maybe I don’t worship your God, if you believe in one that is, either and that’s fine by me because, obviously, you, like me, and almost all the other people here, don’t hate but operate in your, and their, life and lives with all the love that you, and they, can muster. Thank-you for your lovely comment. I do try to do my best and to challenge the idolaters who try to raise the Bible as a substitute for God.

    I have no doubt that you will have noted, since you have obviously read this thread quite thoroughly, that all the Mr. Skinner could reply to me was that I ought to “read my Bible” – as if I had never done so. He proved thereby, as I am sure that you will agree, my point – that he has raised the Bible as a wall between him and God: that he worships the Bible not God, that he simply cannot see the love of God and that all that he wants from religion is a series of rules and that he has chosen to derive those rules from a particular book – the Bible (which he chooses to take absolutely literally and as if it were historically accurate fact, which it isn’t) – rather than from Christ’s living presence in his life. If one is a Christian then that is just the ultimate stupidity.

  43. Neville, I don’t think that I am a “religious maniac” though I can quite see why you might derive that from my posts so far on this thread. As a gay Christian I happen to think that the absurdities and crudities of Mr. Skinner’s approach to faith have to be answered in his own terms – that is to say, in Christian terms. Mere insult will never dissuade people like him from their erroneous positions on faith. I also seek to put clear water between me and my Christian version of the Faith and Mr. Skinner’s hateful and untrue, Satan inspired and silly literalist version.

    He, Mr. Skinner, doesn’t know much about mainstream theology, doesn’t have much understanding of the history of the Faith and manifestly doesn’t have a clue about Biblical recension.

    Now all that might be Greek to you, and that’s fine for there is no reason why it shouldn’t be, but for too long Mr. Skinner, and his ilk, have ridden roughshod over the feelings and beliefs of other Christians at this site and offered up their weird and wonderful interpretation of the Faith as the whole truth about Christianity. It’s not even remotely the truth – it’s the deranged ravings of a delusional fanatic who got hold of the Bible and thinks that that is all there is to Christianity.

    Imagine, if you will (please), just for a moment, that you are standing in my shoes, the shoes of a gay Christian, and there are a fair few of us, and you read the ravings of Mr. Skinner at your favourite gay news site. Wouldn’t you want to reply, to challenge him and his unorthodox and weird and unjustified assumptions about your Faith? I’m replying to him in kind and deploying the knowledge I have about my mainstream Christian beliefs in order to nullify his harmful, and hate filled, statements.

    The problem with religiously deranged people like Mr. Skinner, and his Satan inspired worship of some paper and cardboard icon, is that they make a lot of noise and cause good people like you to think that they are spouting some true version of the Faith when, in reality, nothing could be further from the truth.

    Of course, and as you would expect, I invite you to believe as I believe – but that’s the nub of the thing, isn’t it? I invite you to form your own view of God, if you can or if you want to (I witness for my Faith), whereas Mr. Skinner and his cohorts want to bludgeon you into their view no matter how wrong it might be nor how much spiritual (note the lower case ‘s’) damage which they might do to you.

    If all that makes me a religious maniac, and you could be correct, if my desire to challenge Mr. Skinner’s unorthodox views about the Faith in his own terms, makes me somehow suspect then I’m sorry but it is the best that I can offer in defence of our freedoms and our rights.

    Someone has to challenge the weird, oulandish and deranged believers who haunt this site deliberately in order to prey upon the vulnerable amongst us! Why shouldn’t it be me and why can I not do it in my Faith terms that they might just understand? Does that make me a “religious maniac” or a Faith-based challenger of the hard-of-thinking?

  44. Archdeacon Brian Hurtin 25 May 2009, 8:33am

    I have to laugh when I read the same holier than though examples brought up by the gaystapo in the USA, UK and Australia and NZ with each one giving the impression that they invented it.

    I have seen the Fred Phelps story doing the rounds in each country as though Fred Phelps is christianity bearing in mind that to take that story to its logical conclusion, Osama Bin Laden is representative of all muslims in the world.

    In addition I have seen the comment that Jesus did not condemn homosexuality. Of course he did not need to as God’s views on the subject were very clear as the Bible contains 770 verses about marriage and every one talks about Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve.

    If I said to my son 770 times that he needed to find a girlfriend if he wants to get married, I think any sane person would understand that I didn’t say if you find a boyfriend that is all right as well.

    Jesus did not condemn paedophilia so I take it that you seen nothing wrong with it? If you do, your argument about Jesus and homosexuality is spurious.

    The gaystapo have yet to realise that their arguments against christianity are double speak as one of their catchcry’s is “freedom of speech” but it is very obvious from reading what is said here and in the media all over the world that they only believe that if you agree with them.

    Their other catchcry is ‘tolerance” but if you disagree with them you will be given a gigantic dose of intolerance. However, because they are so insecure in what they believe and who they are, they cannot see how intolerant they are.

    “At least one pro-family organization that has opposed the pro-homosexual “Day of Silence” is being targeted with hate e-mails and telephone calls, including suggestions that officials go and kill themselves.”

    In other words, you cannot disagree with us because our rights are the only ones that matter.

  45. “In other words, you cannot disagree with us because our rights are the only ones that matter.”

    Really? Well “Archdeacon” Brian Hurtin (how pompous), I always though that is what you religious twits thought about yourselves, is it not? Agree with us or we’ll burn you for witchcraft. Agree with us, because it validates out life choices. Agree with us becuase out god is better then your god. Agree with us because we need no proof of what we believe in and neither should you. Agree with us, becuase it keeps us in power.

    Am I right, or am I right?

    You sir, are neither Christian or spiritual.

    And ironic you use the term “gaystapo”, when the Nazi’s killed people of other religious and homosexuals in the name of a “christian god”. Get you history right before spitting your little hate slogans at me, you fool.

  46. Brian Hurtin, wasn’t the BVM Joseph’s legally married, in the eyes of God, wife. Yet God quickened her with child – Our Lord Jesus. Didn’t Mary and God therefore, technically, commit adultery? Any literal reading of Scripture is fraught with pitfalls just like that one, isn’t it?

    As I said, in one of my posts on this thread (above), the Old Testament was fulfilled and finished by Christ’s life and Resurrection. It’s over and we must use any examples which we draw from it very, very carefully and measure those examples against His universal and all-encompassing message of love. The idea that the Bible contains the literal Word of God is ridiculous and forms no part of mainstream Christian belief – it is, or it may be, His Word filtered through the fallible minds of men and coloured and distorted by the prejudices which those men naturally port. Equally, it may be nothing more than some random collection of after-the-event musings gathered together by the early Church in order to protect and explain its history to future generations of Christian believers. There is ample evidence to indicate that the early Church did not view the Bible as, in any sense, anything more than an historical record and most certainly would have severely disagreed that in any sense whatsoever it was to be relied upon as the Word of God. The copious references to heterosexual unions merely reflect the composition of the group which built the Bible and probably doesn’t reflect the mind of God in its compleatness. Given the absolute freedom of action granted to us by God then even the composition of the group(s) which put together the Bible – actually, Bibles, given the big differences between the various sects of our religion – is down to us and has nothing to do with God. Oh, I’m sure that He knew, and knows, how it will all turn out, but he didn’t directly command any of it.

    If you rely on the Bible for your Faith then you stand on the shifting sands of stupidity. It’s much better to rely on the living Christ, the Holy Spirit and God himself and the Triune Godhead’s incredible and great message of love for all men.

    As far as can be ascertained the Bible as we know it, was unknown to vast majority of Christians in the Apostolic, and immediately post-Apostolic, ages. Certainly, it is never mentioned as being used in Church Services which seem to have centered around an exceedingly simple and short Communion Service, in memory of Christ and his resurrection, followed by a general discussion on the Faith led by a ‘priest’ who had studied under one of the Apostles, or under one who had studied under one of the Apostles (hence the rise of the superstitious belief in the Apostolic Succession).

    How often the Bible which we have today – and not all of the ancient Christian sects even agree on the same Bible – mentions the ideal of heterosexual marriage is compleately irrelevant to any argument about the rights of Gay people. The rights of Gay people are enshrined in Christ’s universal message, for all times and all peoples, of love.

    Your attempt to introduce other carnalities such as paedophilia into the argument is nothing more than a smokescreen used to cloak your own denial of God’s operative love for all people in some cheap and disgusting equivalence argument. Paedophilia cannot, by its very nature, involve the principle of consent – informed consent to an act willingly given of withheld, and contains no love but just lust, it cannot, by very definition, contain the act of two-way love – and that is what makes it a sin against God and nature. Adult gay relationships are consensual and long-term gay relationships are entered into consensually, and contain love and committment.

    It is a cheap and misdirecting propaganda trick to try to introduce carnalities such as paedophilia, rape and bestialty into the debate about gay relationships simply because the principles of love and consent operate in gay relationships, as they do in heterosexual relationships, and cannot operate or be present in the other carnalities.

    John, Ch. 8, V. 7 seems to apply here, as does Matthew, Ch. 7, V. 1 and Romans Ch. 2, V. 1 – if you must have spiritually invalid Biblical quotes, that is!

    Gay relationships are valid not because they operate within some heterosexual norm, nor because they operate within some legal norm, but because they operate within the parameters of Christ’s love, of God’s love as evinced by the Christ, for all humanity, and because they are, just as heterosexual relationships are, or should be, consensual and loving.

    You counted words and thereby behaved as the Pharisee and the Levite did in Luke Ch. 10, Vs. 29 to 37. I, however, shall be the Good Samaritan and demonstrate His message of love – something that you are obviously incapable of doing or understanding at the moment. That particular parable is, of course, the premier example of Our Lord Jesus simultaneously fulfilling, negating and rewriting the Old Testament to very point that it cannot be used to castigate anyone – His message of love shines through!

    You do, however, have a valid point when you complain about the actions of what, I hope, is a tiny minority of gay people in their trying to intimidate those, like you, who wish to believe in a different and less forgiving creed than the vast majority of our Christian brethren. Emails and telephone calls which contain bile and hatred should not be sent or made by any civilised person. Intimidation should not, and must not, be used as a debating tactic in our free and democratic Western societies. You are free to speak your mind as I am free to speak mine. I will defend to the final and ultimate act your right to speak your beliefs but I will challenge them also and disagree with you where I consider it to be needful so to do. I deprecate most strongly those of our number who resort to base threats against your safety and your right to speak of your beliefs but, and it’s a big but, a little politeness and a small portion of acknowledgement that there is another side, another interpretation of Christ’s Word, wouldn’t go amiss here if you want to keep the debate civilised. I don’t ask you believe as I believe but I do ask you to believe that there are other ways of interpreting that which you interpret in your own way. Stop shouting at us and putting your fingers in your ears when we reply and start debating – we’re never going to agree but we might just learn to, as Christ commands, love one another. Who knows, we might even reach an accommodation, God willing!

  47. Archdeacon Hurtin “Their other catchcry is ‘tolerance” but if you disagree with them you will be given a gigantic dose of intolerance. However, because they are so insecure in what they believe and who they are, they cannot see how intolerant they are.”

    (note the extraordinary, unqualified claim in the second part of that sentence)

    More whining, whingeing, hysterical nonsense. You are perfectly entitled to your speech. No one is stopping you. But I’m not tolerant of your opinions, because they are babyish, and based on superstition and bigotry.

    It’s not for me to dictate the policies of churches. My concern is that the church should have zero influence on public life, whether it’s religious laws, or religious representatives in the house of Lords.

    Church dogma has done untold damage to the lives of LGBT people, and people are finally waking up to the fact it was all nonsense all along.

    You ask us to respect your beliefs based on no evidence. Well, I do not. I suspect them, intensely.

    The trouble with fanatics such as you is, you can neither tolerate people who are different from you, nor can you take the criticism. Why should I turn the other cheek (an immoral teaching if ever there were one, glad we didn’t do that on 9/11)?

    Actually Archdeacon, tell me this: what makes you a better moral guide than, e.g. a cleaning lady, an electrician, a pub landlord, a toilet cleaner, or infact, any other profession? History has shown that those working under holy orders tend to be no special pioneers in matters of human rights and the last to accept scientific facts. What are you people actually good for?

    I mean to do genuinely well-meaning folk such as John MJ no wrong by such a question.

  48. “History has shown that those working under holy orders tend to be no special pioneers in matters of human rights and the last to accept scientific facts”

    Quite right, Adrian. One only has to read the sickening Ryan Report in Ireland on the extend of the clerical abuse of children in religious run institutions, so see how much “holier” these people actually are.

    I have another word, also begins with “h” that better describes them, its hypocrisy.

  49. Archdeacon Brian Hurtin = that senile American crank ‘Reality Check’, incidentally ;-)

  50. Adrian T, You certainly didn’t do me any wrong and you advanced much food for thought with style and panache, I think (certainly with brevity – which is a talent that I haven’t mastered yet). Thank-you. I would have phrased your argument differently had I written it, obviously. However, in essence, I think that we agree about people like Mr. Skinner and Mr. Hurtin. Thank-you kindly for your final sentence. I’ll keep on demolishing their childish arguments with as much mainstream theology as I can muster and you will keep on demolishing them with your good, sound, secular philosophy. Together, we will expose them for what they actually are – hate-filled, bigoted people desperate, in their ignorance of the true Faith, for rules which they can believe are imposed upon them by some external force (God, in their case) and people who pervert the true message of my Christian Faith. Time to fight back, I think, on both the secular and the religious fronts. I’ll take the religious and theological front, and I’m sure that I will be joined by others, and on the showing of this thread there are many here – you included – who are very well qualified and more than capable of advancing on the secular front.

    Let’s give those intolerant Pharisees who confront us a run for their money, as we have all done so far on this thread!

  51. For sure John, and welcome, Comrade! Actually, it is great to see you here, as it’s in danger of becoming a viper’s nest of brooding anti-theism (I am partly responsible :-) ). If the good people of faith are ready to defend their religion from being taken over by the fanatics, so much the better.

    So, do stick around, and be on call: the price for liberty is eternal vigilence, alas….

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