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Comment: Peter Tatchell on how Moscow’s ban on the gay parade led to massive media coverage of LGBT issues

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  1. “All of them were ready to risk being arrested, beaten, jailed, sacked from their jobs and evicted from their apartments.”

    I still wonder if these people were either very brave, or blindingly stupid.

    For all this effort, a few days later the whole thing is old news and forgotten about. I don’t deny this is an important step for Russian LGBT people, but as I have stated before, direct action like this only results in antagonising the authorities, risking physical violence etc. to the protesters, and worst of all, giving *ALL* gay people a bad reputation as troublemakers.

    Years ago, Peter and his motley crew of Outrage! activists invaded government and cathedrals, amongst other places, and all I saw from most people was “Those gays are at it again, they are a bloody menace”, and meanwhile Tatchell became the voice of the “gay community”. I for one certainly didn’t want to be represented by this bunch of guerillas, and felt, (and still feel), that this mode of protest is unjustified and causes more problems than it cures. Peter’s intentions may be honourable, but his tactics are most certainly not.

  2. Complain now 20 May 2009, 10:18am

    Robn is quick to criticise Peter Tatchel but what has he done to highlight brutal supression of gay rights in other countries?

    In the UK we have it easy in comparison with Russia and other East European countries. it is hugely symbolic both to the gay men and lesbians in those countries and to the media/authorities that they are under external scrutiny.

    I agree that highly public demostrations are the ONLY way to gather media attention and despite the usual suspects being extremely critical of these ‘activists’ by and large it does advance gay rights and equality.

    Sitting on your arse back in the UK doing nowt is not an option – well not unless you are a lazy/selfish person!

  3. Simon Murphy 20 May 2009, 10:36am

    I totally applaud the Russian LGBT movement and Peter Tatchell. They are totally correct when they say that direct action is the only way to affect real change. Especially when the authorities are so homophobic. I cannot understand RobN’s point of view. Using his logic the Stonewall riots in New York in 1969 were a bad idea. Using his logic the civil rights movement in the US was a bad idea. Using his logic the suffragette movement was a bad idea.

    He would seem to be arguing that gay people, or black people or women simply wait for things to improve for them. It doesn’t work like that.

    I’d rather have Peter Tatchell speak for me than any gay MP (none of whom support full equality of gay relationships – the Uncle Toms of the gay population are those hideous MP’s from all parties who think we should be happy with the 2nd class Civil Partnership laws)

  4. Robn is idealistically wrong of course. Decades of shouting from what ever position you hold has been the only way change ever happened. It doesnt matter if you sit in parliament or sell newpapaers at street corners – the people who make noise change the world. If no one speaks out an oppressive culture can continue unchallenged for decades if not centuries.

    Of course people dont like that – but that’s what make protesters improtant – because the have the convition to continue regardless of other people’s grummbling.

    I totally oppose Robn’s comments. It’s the ‘ of course gays are nice people but they should shut up and keep quiet’ school of net curtain twitching that i loathe. Thatchell is self styled it is true. He is more of a one man band protest campainer rather than an establishment insider politcal reformist . However even this position is important. It’s high profile offers many hope, visability and also not a bad example to take up either. His technique is self invented. It appears a little scatter gun in terms of what he is seen to mind about. But Thatchell stands for the right to protest against human rights abuses in general AND be openly self referential about his sexuality. Both of those still require effort not silence.

  5. robn = so utterly wrong im not going to even bother setting his net curtains on fire.
    good for thatchell et co btw…

  6. RobN – What a negative comment and although you are obviously entitled to your opinion, I am shocked that you take that standpoint. Gay Pride and demonstrations to the rest of society that our rights should be equal are still essential in THIS country and we have leagues more rights than the LGBT communtiy in Russia. I think it’s vital that the LGBT community in this country make sure that they are seen and heard as we still have so far to go in the UK, everybody should support Gay Pride and demonstrations. So to criticise the brave work that the Russian LGBT movement and Peter Tatchell are carrying out seems outrageous to me!

    Good work and congratulations on the great progress achieved last week. Although the success is not screamingly obvious, it took immense courage to be involved in this essential protest and slowly but surely this ridiculous prejudice will be chipped away until Russia is a more accomodating, equal society. Well done!

  7. A great victory for Peter and the LGBT community at large. You are brave and courageous and we salute you.

  8. Julian Morrison 20 May 2009, 12:20pm

    Direct action never succeeds in getting direct changes (oddly enough) but it gets the problem out there to the public when all the conventional communication channels are blocked. It shows people they aren’t alone. It wakes up the compassionate, and stirs the hateful into actions that show them in a bad light.

  9. Well done Peter – you’re doing a great job.

    I really think we need this guy in the next Parliament.

  10. HEY, I WAS IN MOSCOW! All written in this article is total RUBBISH! Emotional non-sense and lies. LGBT have to be honest and not say fairy-tales to advance the cause. Please remove this rubbish! PLEASE!

  11. Complain Now: I take it you were in Moscow at the weekend then?
    If not, why not? Or were you “Sitting on your arse back in the UK doing nowt”?

  12. There is, of course, a valid place both for the “within the system” approach adopted by Stonewall and the more “spectacular” tactics sometimes adopted by Peter Tatchell. It all depends.

    As for Moscow, I suspect they had little choice and I will reveal an interest inasmuch as I believe it was originally my suggestion (kindly forwarded on my behalf by the London Pride organisers to their opposite numbers in Moscow) to co-ordinate their march with Eurovision with the aim of putting the Russian authorities in a difficult position on a day when the media would be focussed on them.

    I am pleased it seems to have worked, somewhat guilty that I could not make it there myself and in immense, humbling and total admiration of those who were there.

    As for Peter himself, if there is one thing we should have learned from this and other news stories this past week, it is that the world would be a better place if there were more people in public life posessed of his integrity, bravery and passion.

  13. RobN, good job on monitoring people’s views and giving an immediate answer to cool down an audience! Congratulations, you are a real professional. But the FACT OF THE MATTER is that this article remains a lie and MUST be removed for the purposes of honesty and decency.

  14. @ Al – So, someone who was present at the protest gives a fairly detailed account of the events leading up to the protest, and then you pop up here saying its all a lie, but providing absolutely no reasons for why you say this, and no verifiable evidence either. Who are we to believe?..obviously not you, you little internet troll.

  15. Brian Burton 20 May 2009, 1:34pm

    RobN,
    You are a total Crapp merchant, I strongly doubt whether you are HOMOSEXUAL. You get your kicks having digs at Britain’s wonderful gay community.

  16. AL: I have no idea what you are blithering on about. I never at any point said anything in the article was a lie or didn’t occur.
    I merely pointed out my opinions on the matter.

    Brian: Doubt all you wish. As I have stated many times before, we don’t all fit into your “perfect little world” scenario. The only common factor I have between you, them and myself is who I choose to sleep with, which frankly, is none of your or anyone else’s business.

    As for the “gay community”, you keep on believing it. The term is an oxymoron, there never was or will be any kind of community when gay men remain selfish, vain, egotistical shitbags that don’t care about anyone except themselves.

  17. Robert, ex-pat Brit 20 May 2009, 3:16pm

    RobN, have you forgotten the first Stonewall in New York, the battle that lit the fire of the Gay rights movement around the world? Drag Queens, transvestites, and other “undesirables” you’re ashamed of were the ones who started it all, they fought the police with their bare hands and won. Thanks to them and their bravery, you probably wouldn’t have any semblance of equality in the UK, in fact no country would. Pacifism and sitting on your duff while a minority do the fighting has consequences further down the road. So far, in Russia, peaceful dialog with the authorities hasn’t worked. It hasn’t worked in the baltic states either and look at Poland! Expect nothing from right wing regimes, the only thing they understand is confrontation and confrontation is what they’ll get.

  18. Simon Murphy 20 May 2009, 3:54pm

    RobN – do you believe that the Suffragettes should not have protested that women wee not allowed to vote?

    Do you think they should simply have waited until men decided to grant them the vote?

    If not then why not?

    Because that is what you are asking of gay people in Russia.

    Do you believe that black people in the US should not have protested their civil right but instead should have waited until white people decided to grant them civil rights?

    If not then why not because that is what you are asking of gay people in Russia.

    Do you think the Stonewall Riots in New York in 1969 and that gay people should simply have waited for straight society to grant them equality.

    If not then why not as that’s what you’re asked of gay people in Russia.

  19. Well done!

    Al, if you’ve got a different version of events, you need to explain a bit.

  20. RobN: “I still wonder if these people were either very brave, or blindingly stupid.”

    They’re brave, I assure you. YOU’RE the stupid one for suggesting that, you arse. Get off your pedestal and do something positive for gay rights, rather than sitting in your hovel banging our your crap on a keyboard. Fools like you make me sick, its a wonder anyone can put up with you to get laid.

  21. RobN- whenever I read your posts I’m reminded of Basil Brush.
    You remember him? He’s the glove puppet fox who used to have his own kid’s show. Whenever the subject of puppets came up in his presence he used to spit on the ground and say “Ugghh I hate puppets”.
    How can you call yourself gay and still define every gay person (a subsection of society which presumably includes you) in such a damning way? Do you enjoy self-flagelation or are you just attempting to “In” yourself? Have some self-respect, it’s like talking to Daffyd off “Little Britain”!

  22. Uggh! I hate puppets! ;)

    Flapjack: It’s not self-abuse as such. I am only gay by proxy as I
    have no interest sexually or otherwise with other gay men any more due to my disgust at their general attitudes and what I have personally experienced of them over many years.

    Declan G : If you judge your success in the gay world by how many shags you have attained, you are indeed as shallow as all the other gay men out there.

    Simon Murphy and others: Stonewall was 40 years ago, and defined a world moment. Since that time, homosexuality has been recognised by everyone world wide. Some countries acknowledge it, others don’t; but everyone knows it exists now. This is all about education and cultural change. This all takes time, and importing foreign activists to support your cause will not help. Everything comes in time. Most of the Eastern European states will be forced to come into line with the EU by law, or get slung out. That in turn will diffuse across to countries like Russia. This still won’t alter people’s opinions. That can only come with generational change.
    It’s taken us 50 years to get where we are now. There is not going to be overnight change. Even the majority most powerful, and apparently forward-thinking country in the world still think being gay is a sin, thus proving things still have a long way to go.

    P.S. I wonder why Peter Tatchell hasn’t tried doing this in Tehran or Harare yet? You already know the answer to that one.

  23. Pumpkin Pie 20 May 2009, 5:52pm

    P.S. I wonder why Peter Tatchell hasn’t tried doing this in Tehran or Harare yet? You already know the answer to that one.

    Well, I guess that settles the question posed by your very first sentence in this thread: brave, not stupid.

  24. Pumpkin Pie 20 May 2009, 5:55pm

    I am only gay by proxy as I
    have no interest sexually or otherwise with other gay men any more due to my disgust at their general attitudes and what I have personally experienced of them over many years.

    Forgot to mention, I once had an eccentric colleague who felt the same way about Pakistani doctors. Course, she didn’t refer to them as “Pakistani”, nor were they all presumably even from Pakistan. They all looked the same to her, though.

  25. Dear RobN,
    I feel for you! It doesn’t sound like you have had a very good experience thus far, both in the gay community, and within your own world. I find that very sad, you are a human being too, and like all of us, deserve a decent and fulfilling life with love and kindness.

    It seems to me that you see the world in a very black and white,wrong and right way, this is of course absolutely no use to you, and you should try a little harder to see the other colours too! For example, when you say gay men can be selfish, and shallow, this of course has some truth in it. But what you fail to see is that gay men are human, and as such are not perfect, just like everyone else! I would like to give you one example of how loving and caring gay men can be, as I think you need this example in order to rethink your black and white way of seeing things! When HIV and aids began in the early 80’s, it was gay men who looked after and cared for other gay men dying of aids. Gay men showed during this time how truly amazing, caring and compassionate they could be.

    We should be proud of ourselves, that along with shopping, going to the gym, and shagging everything in sight, we can also step up to the mark when it is required. Lastly, although you might not believe it, there are far more gay men out there in caring compassionate and loving relationships than there are hanging around Soho looking for the next lay!, you just don’t know it because you can’t see them!!They do not go to Soho or the “gay scene”, they are at home with their lovers and their families, much like myself!

    Seek therapy Robn, its not too late, and you could enjoy what’s left of your life, because there is not going to be another!!

  26. @RobN

    I would like to associate myself with the words of James who sounds like the fine sort of chap you’re finding it difficult to discover.

    If I can throw my twopence worth in on a purely practical level:

    i) If you’re in London, the London Lesbian and Gay Switchboard (020 7837 7324 daily 10am -11pm) can put you in touch with various social groups (from sport to Dr Who and all manner of curious and prosaic things inbetween) you might find interesting;

    ii) PACE (pacehealth.org.uk) run some really excellent LGBT one-on-one or group counselling services at little or no cost; and

    iii) If you don’t feel you want to enter again into a gay environment but have a good GP, they often have an in-house counsellor who, being most often straight, will genuinely welcome talking to a LGBT patient as an opportunity for their own personal and professional development.

  27. RobN wrote
    “All of them were ready to risk being arrested, beaten, jailed, sacked from their jobs and evicted from their apartments.”
    I still wonder if these people were either very brave, or blindingly stupid.
    For all this effort, a few days later the whole thing is old news and forgotten about. I don’t deny this is an important step for Russian LGBT people, but as I have stated before, direct action like this only results in antagonising the authorities, risking physical violence etc. to the protesters, and worst of all, giving *ALL* gay people a bad reputation as troublemakers.
    Years ago, Peter and his motley crew of Outrage! activists invaded government and cathedrals, amongst other places, and all I saw from most people was “Those gays are at it again, they are a bloody menace”, and meanwhile Tatchell became the voice of the “gay community”. I for one certainly didn’t want to be represented by this bunch of guerillas, and felt, (and still feel), that this mode of protest is unjustified and causes more problems than it cures. Peter’s intentions may be honourable, but his tactics are most certainly not.

    . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

    So the suffragette movement according to your logic should have:

    1.Waited for men to give then the vote

    2.Should not have protested violently in the street and chained
    themselves to railings . . . and many other things

    3.Should not have gone on hunger strike (Resulting in some of them
    being forced feed when they were imprisoned)

    . . . did you not study UK history at school?

  28. James & Ivan: Thank you for your kind, but ultimately misplaced sentiments. I spent 30 years on the gay scene trying to find someone I could spend a life with throughout that time. I used to think I was one of the nicest people I knew. During that period I was used, abused, let down, and almost always eventually fucked over. There comes a point in one’s life where you have to weigh up the statistics, and consequently I dropped out of the entire gay rat race. I don’t need people like that, and sex never really interested me that much, and now I feel I am a far happier, well-balanced individual that can view the LGBT scene objectively from the outside in, and frankly, I despise what I see. I certainly do not need help or therapy. I think so many people are terrified of living life on their own, but the alternatives can be far worse. Also take note, there is a big difference between being alone, and being lonely. Some people may view me as bitter or vindictive, and they are probably right, but I think I have good justification, and I think my comments question what so many on here consider the status quo.

    As for “stepping up to the mark”, I have done my fair share of voluntary work, and on many occasions seen gay men walk away from donating a few coppers for shaking a bucket for HIV/AIDS charities (including plenty of verbal abuse with it), and attempting to organise a benefit gig after the Admiral Duncan bombing where nobody was willing to put their hands in their pockets, and even Boyz refused us free advertising space. The “gay community” is a sham, and should be seen for what it is, a collection of faggots wanting to get their end away. Nobody does anything for anyone else, and everyone is ultimately in it for themselves. Even apparently altruistic acts have ulterior, selfish motives; you just need to look a little deeper. If you want to know a real gay man, scratch the surface and you will find… More surface.

    …………………………………………………..
    Anyhow, this is not the thread to be discussing my personal motives, but I felt it was about time I explained why I am the way I am. I just hope some people glean some interest in my comments, and for those that don’t, don’t make your problem mine.

  29. commanderthor 20 May 2009, 9:30pm

    RobN, I’m sorry to hear about what you have been through. I’m a 22 year old gay man, and I still dream of meeting my prince charming, and getting married and building a family… Given that we only get one chance at life, I intend to spend the rest of my days working towards that ideal, or die trying. I hope you realise soon that this is your only chance – don’t waste it…

  30. Gee RobN you sound just as bitter as some straight men & women who feel they have been ‘done over’ in their pursute of the ‘perfect’ partner.

    To the activists: I don’t have the guts to do what you do – the thought of what you risk just scares that crap out of me! And seeing as I can’t do it myself I’ll always support those of you who do. I have much, much respect for you who take part in peacful protests like this one. WELL DONE!!!

  31. “I spent 30 years on the gay scene trying to find someone I could spend a life with throughout that time.”

    RobN – You deserve a partner as well. But I agree I think there is a big problem with trying find one on the gay scene . . . Pubs, Clubs . . . loud music . . .are you mad(Jocular tone) . . . . A dating agency (Nothing to be ashamed of), or social group would be far better . . . Gay Conservative group? . . . etc etc etc . . . I agree Gay Socialist Worker(Probably not you– but every one to their).

    . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

    “I used to think I was one of the nicest people I knew. During that period I was used, abused, let down, and almost always eventually fucked over. There comes a point in one’s life where you have to weigh up the statistics, and consequently I dropped out of the entire gay rat race.”

    I am sorry to hear that you have been treated badly by people. . . there are some cruel people out there who will take advantage, and I am sorry to hear that you have been abused by what sounds like ruthless people. The Gay Rat Race sounds hideous . . . But then who would want to be part of any Rat Race. . . I certainly would not . . . and simply refuse to . . .

    . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

    “I don’t need people like that, and sex never really interested me that much, and now I feel I am a far happier, well-balanced individual that can view the LGBT scene objectively from the outside in, and frankly, I despise what I see. I certainly do not need help or therapy. “

    Do you really want to be a monk!!! . . .come on . . . there is a lovely man out there who wants to show you the joys of sex . . . You better believe it. If you cannot imagine this guy, you will never meet him. Start developing your imagination . . . the more vivid the better.

    With regards therapy . . . this is nothing to be ashamed. . . and it is not a trendy left wing thing either . . . lots of gay conservatives in therapy . . Quite frankly who isn’t . . . you will need to be in therapy any way . . . because I am not going to stop my pointed questions . . . at you.

    . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

    “I think so many people are terrified of living life on their own, but the alternatives can be far worse. Also take note, there is a big difference between being alone, and being lonely.”

    Of course ever one is terrified of living on ones own, who isn’t. I agree one needs to find a balance between solitude and being with people.

    . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

    “Some people may view me as bitter or vindictive, and they are probably right, but I think I have good justification, and I think my comments question what so many on here consider the status quo”

    Bless you for your honesty . . .

    No No No . . . you do not have any justification for wallowing in self pity
    . . . and as Ms T would say, the Lady is not for turning . . . get back on the yellow brick road like the rest of us. . . Lets face the Wicked Witch of the East together.

    . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

    “As for “stepping up to the mark”, I have done my fair share of voluntary work, and on many occasions seen gay men walk away from donating a few coppers for shaking a bucket for HIV/AIDS charities (including plenty of verbal abuse with it), and attempting to organise a benefit gig after the Admiral Duncan bombing where nobody was willing to put their hands in their pockets, and even Boyz refused us free advertising space. “

    I agree this is tragic . . . you think heterosexualsville is any better. Open your eyes. For goodness sake . . . approaching Boyz Mag . . . sounds like poor PR/Marketing to me . . . a whole plethora of gay charities and gay friendly organisations in London . . . I do not buy this . . .

    . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

    “The “gay community” is a sham, and should be seen for what it is, a collection of faggots wanting to get their end away. Nobody does anything for anyone else, and everyone is ultimately in it for themselves. “

    Any community is what you make of it . . if it is based on sex . . . that’s what it will be . . . come on!!!

    . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

    “Even apparently altruistic acts have ulterior, selfish motives; you just need to look a little deeper”

    This sounds like depression to me
    Start getting angry . . . But not too many of your rants at me . . . I am only human.

    . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

    “If you want to know a real gay man, scratch the surface and you will find… More surface.”

    I find this insulting – I am a Gay man and I am not shallow . . . There may well be shallow people on this site, but so far I feel I am in dialogue with some very perceptive, proactive and purposeful people
    . . . start getting to know them

    Jean-Paul . . . he likes you and has been trying to dialogue with you for days . . . why do you ignore him and push him away? . . . this sounds like shallow behaviour to me

    Kind regards
    JohnK

  32. John K: Once bitten, twice shy as they say. After you’ve been bitten hundreds of times, you begin to see a pattern forming…

    I DO NOT need anybody in my life and I am not depressed. Contrary to popular opinion, it is quite possible to have a happy and fulfilling life with very little human interaction. I work for myself, have few contacts, fewer friends and no lovers.

    It’s a bit like giving up smoking: it seems tough at first but after a few months you wonder why you ever did it in the first place.

    The good thing about chatting on here is unlike real life, you lot have a little X in the top right corner. One click and you’re gone.

  33. Yep, but you’re here rather a lot RobN – which suggests that you haven’t given up on mankind quite as much as you would like to have done. You’ve only got to find the kindness, decency and non-shallowness in one gay man who you like – and the internet makes it more and more easy. (Mind you, easy for me to talk – other people’s love lives so much easier to pontificate about than one’s own….)

  34. ‘Even the majority of the most powerful, and apparently forward-thinking countries in the world still think that being gay is a sin, thus proving things have a long way to go.’

    Having read this entire thread, word for word, the above statement is the only one that rings true to me. I believe it was composed by RobN in his post 22.

    It’s true that I was surprised at Peter Tatchell’s participation in the Moscow Pride Parade in spite of a stern and clear warning from the Foreign Office to avoid going to Russia. I say ‘surprised’, which does not necessarily mean ‘well impressed’.

    The Gay Pride Parade in Moscow did achieve something by way of media coverage. However, I do not believe it proved anything we didn’t already know: homophobia exists in Russia.

    It was surely a great adrenaline rush, and to read Peter’s account of the byzantine intrigues that led to his arrest, one is reminded of Tzarist Russia when the aristocracy, lacking television and the Internet, did the best they could to beguile and intrigue one another just to pass the time away, while going to masquerade balls where diamonds sparkled and champagne flowed freely into cut crystal while the poor froze in the dark.

    Of course, it would have been considered a lack of respect of the Romanovs’ if the high prelates of the Greek Orthodox Church had refused the invitations, and you can take it from there… jewelled crucifixes dangling rhythmically from the gold chains around their necks while their skirts were laying bare… their bottoms.

    The fact remains that in my opinion the whole Pride Parade was aiming at the wrong target, and nobody, not even Sir Blue Plaque himself, knows it better than RobN.

    Let me explain. In the statement quoted above, if you take a minute to read it word for word, you will notice a key word that has yet to be mentioned anywhere by anyone; the word is ‘sin’.

    In Tatchell’s account of the events, and in every other account I’ve read for that matter, there is not one mention of the word ‘sin’.

    This is highly relevant because the concept of ‘sin’ originates in the Abrahamic religions, and the Greek Orthodox Church, a cousin of the RCC, has been growing in popularity by leaps and bounds since glastnost (spelling?).

    The proof of the origin of the word ‘sin’, as if you don’t already know, is that no other civilization, whether Greek or Roman, Chinese or Japanese, Hindu or African, Aztec or Mayan, Hawaiian or South Pacific was ever homophobic. There were taboos of all sorts, but no homophobia.

    Never homophobic until the missionaries holding the cross and the conquerors holding the swords showed up in cahoots to bring home the loot.

    Surely you’ve heard about Spanish galeons so overloaded with cargoes of pure Aztec or Mayan gold that they sank to the ocean floor before making it to the high seas.

    My point being that the Russians are homophobic for the same reason every ‘forward-thinking’ nation is homophobic, namely because of the influence of the Abrahamic religions’ pathological teachings regarding sexuality in general, and regarding homosexuality in particular.

    It gets better! Those who express homophobia believe they are following sacred scriptures spoken by god him(her,it)self, and they are destined for a place at the feet of the creator of the cosmos; destined to dine at an abundant banquet in a never-never land, where they they will have a hi-tech panoramic view of lost souls, among whom will be the gays of all times, burning in the everlasting flames and stench of hell – a concept whose gruesome details were taken from the neolithic mythology of Tuscany, and which have served well to fill the coffers of both churches and states, as it is presently the case in Russia. And to hell with the Golden Rule!

    So, throwing a house-brick tied with a pink ribbon through the stained, and I do mean ‘stained’, glass windows of every church in Moscow would have been more relevant both to me and to the entire population of Russia!

    Seeing that I am not inclined to violent behaviour, perhaps a well written letter published one way or another in a Russian newspaper would have been both more permanent and pertinent.

    If you’ll bear with me for a few more moments, comparing the Russian Pride Parade to the Stonewall Riots exemplifies a logic that would compare an orange to a tomato, a horse to a cow, a bird to a turtle… need I go on?

    There was only one Stonewall, only one French Revolution, only one American Revolution, only one Wolfendon Report, etc.

    Finally, since all good things must come to an end (I’m just talking about how much fun I’m having; I really don’t care more about you than you do about me), I have been educated to enquire to see a framed genuine diploma of a Doctorate of Psychology and/or Psychiatry before taking any psychoanalysis seriously. True, RobN volunteered personal information, something avoided by the rest of you (so much for a gay community).

    However, if you are qualified to analyse his personality, except by the reading of Tarot cards or tea leaves at the bottom of a china cup, shouldn’t you know instinctively that you are very likely doing RobN more harm than good, even with the best intentions?

    I also agree with james (25) that compassionate and loving gay couples do exist.

    I agree more so with RobN’s denial of the existence of a gay community (16). When I was a child, J.M. Barrie’s notion of Neverland fascinated me. As the Peter Pan in me grew up, as Peter Pans are inclined to do when the arthitis sets in, I realized that gays in general would rather blend peacefully into society and earn a decent living than living on hand-outs in a gay ghetto, I mean community.

    ‘The world still thinks that being gay is a sin…’

    How clever of you, RobN :0)

  35. Tony Lambert 21 May 2009, 6:57am

    RobN:- “I spent 30 years on the gay scene trying to find someone I could spend a life with throughout that time. I used to think I was one of the nicest people I knew. During that period I was used, abused, let down, and almost always eventually fucked over.”

    Well, time to grow up, and move on. Coming in here with your petty internalised homophobia doesn’t do you any credit. Just makes you sound like a bitter drama queen. We’ve all been through it, but you don’t hear us boo-hooing about why the gay scene didn’t treat us well.

    To be honest, you sound like a complete arsehole. Ever think that’s the reason the gay scene didn’t like you? Occam’s razor, old chap.

  36. John K (31)

    Unless you understand how many times I felt like vomitting when reading Eddy and Keith, you will never understand why I put PinkNews behind me. It wasn’t easy.

    It did wonders for me though, and it’s only because I have noticed that they have taken a powder that I have renewed my interest in ‘youse guys’.

    On the off chance that RobN does like me as much as I like him, it can only be because I read what he writes the way he meant it to be understood.

    I’m a human being, a reader, then I’m gay. My partner is more jealous of my books than of guys trying to corner me in a public loo!

    I may not read everyone well; it’s a mystery to me, but I have grown comfortable with mystery as people do when they get older. Nobody’s prefect!

    This is not the only gay site where a guy can leave comments. I know of sites where the guys are literally gay, they have fun communicating, they joke, they talk about funny things that have happened to them, like the time I tried to boil canneloni instead of baking it in the oven.

    But you should taste my lobster bisque, and it’s lobster season in northern New Brunswick right now.

    I will never struggle with a red lobster in its shell on my dinner plate again, not ever, ever, ever. It’s lobster bisque and garlic bread for me, and I found a non-alcoholic red wine that picks up every bit of flavour. The only thing I’m missing is an oversized, silver-plated tablespoon and a more beautiful soup bowl. And the less guests, the better – more for me!

    It’s not for me to say, but why do the reporters for PinkNews always pick controversial topics, and what does the editor have to gain by fanning the flames of discontent and the worse kind of personal confrontations?

    It’s good to see the gals are around more often too.

    Thanks for the note.

    Warm regards,

  37. Tony Lambert (35):

    Either give us your credentials as a genuine psychotherapist or fuck right off, without lubricant, you half-wit, silly bitch.

    What the f–k do you know about William of Occam? Don’t you realize you are just showing your ignorance by quoting him at this time; him who said:

    “Only individual things exists; all abstract or general ideas are merely the useful shorthand concepts of the mind”

    Dah! Wassat mean?

    For starters, it means that your life is your life; my life is my life; and RobN’s life is RobN’s life. We are all unique; there is no such thing as two identical human beings, or didn’t you read the Kinsey Report? Shithead!

    You could at the very least have attempted to make a link between your venomous wisecracks and the topic of this thread – something to do with this Tatchell fellow who likes to fan the flames, has something to do with an adreneline rush, I believe. Moron. Pinhead. You walk like a duck!

  38. Tony Lambert 21 May 2009, 8:43am

    Jean Paul. You’re another one of this sites regular arseholes.

    Occam’s Razor states “Of two equivalent theories or explanations, all other things being equal, the simpler one is to be preferred”. In other words, “The simplest explanation is usually the best”.

    So, you’re also an idiot. QED.

    Show off your lack of knowledge elsewhere, I’m sick to the back teeth of your stupid queeny attacks, you’re like a drama queen on steroids. Sad, sad, little man that you are.

  39. Tony Lambert: “Just makes you sound like a bitter drama queen. We’ve all been through it, but you don’t hear us boo-hooing about why the gay scene didn’t treat us well.”

    Well maybe it’s because I had to suffer selfish fuckwits like you that I prefer to be where I am now. And as for the razor, one could also go on the premise that most gay men are like you, rather than like me. You are not so much shallow, as just damp.

  40. Pumpkin Pie 21 May 2009, 10:08am

    Or, you could just come to the conclusion that the whole human race is like this, rather than just picking on a minority. ¯\(º_o)/¯

  41. @RobN

    “….Once bitten, twice shy as they say. After you’ve been bitten hundreds of times, you begin to see a pattern forming….”

    That is precisely the point. Why would you expect a different result from doing the same thing over and over again? I mean to be helpful when I ask if it has occured to you that it could be your behaviour pattern that is the issue?

    @commanderthor

    Good on you. But bear in mind that in finding your prince you might have to kiss a few frogs along the way – just try to avoid mention of Agincort (a bit of David Starkey humour there).

  42. Jean-Paul

    Stay around . . . I value your comments, knowledge and honesty

    I agree the topics on pinknews can lead to threads that have resulted in heated and confrontational discussions. . . which can be painful and difficult. . . but we can agree to disagree and still treat other with kindness.

    If we agreed on everything all the time, what a dull world it would be. . . and when we find confluence, lets enjoy the solidarity.

    Believe it or not I have never tried Lobster . . . is it tasty?

    Kind regards
    JohnK

  43. What chance have we got to get our rights when we use words like “selfish f–kwits” at each other and to describe gays’s in general? We want to avoid generalisations about gay people, but when we start projecting homophobia and unfounded generalisation at ourselves, we lose the battle in demanding respect from others.

    Someone once said to me, the way straight people treat gay people is awful, but the way gay people treat each other is downright tragic.

    RobN, do not tarnish all of us with your poor experiences of others.

  44. Tony Lambert (38):

    Yes, I am an arsehole, and when you get to know me, which you don’t (which makes you prejudiced, but who cares?), you might find that ‘arsehole’ is a rather mild expression of what I can be.

    Are you by any chance trying to give me a free lesson on the philosophy of William of Occam? Don’t you think that Occam’s razor is common knowledge to anyone whose passion is the evolution of human thought?

    If you believe that the simplest explanation is usually the best, then you are entrenched in 14th century philosophy. This is the 21st century when philosophers generally agree that the closest we can come to knowing the truth about anything, including the nature of an electron, is ‘ambiguity’!

    I am familiar with the tactic of sluggish students who believe that arguing (from the Middle English ‘arguen’) with the teacher is the mollycoddle way to distill precious knowledge. Sorry, pal, no give-aways this time ’round.

    However, if you are interested in doing your own research (after all, you have the British Museum at your disposal), which I have spent a lifetime doing, here are a few questions you may find challenging, especially if you are reading ‘Philosophy for Dummies':

    What is the name of Occam’s philosophy?

    What are Occam’s real dates, birth and death?

    Who was Occam’s teacher?

    With what issue did Occam disagree with the Pope? What was the name of the Pope? What was the Pope’s reply?

    What was the Pope’s name again, I mean his real name, not his stage name? What month and year did this disagreement take place?
    How was the disagreement settled?

    Did William of Occam belong to a religious order? If so, which one?

    What did Occam teach about private property?

    What was the name, country and status of the person to whom Occam appealed for refuge? Was he accepted or refused? What was the year of this incident?

    Did Occam agree or disagree with Thomas of Aquinas? If so, why? If not, why not?

    What was William of Occam’s most important contribution to mediaeval philosophy?

    Remember, I have the correct answers. You will be evaluated, and you may lose your back teeth if you’re score is not up to par, which is 18/18 by the way, and according to British tradition there is a rather limited time to the exam. Oh, and you do have the option of handing in a blank sheet with your name and the date on it. Good luck.

    Time for my steroids already. Where does the time go?

  45. RobN – I can completely empathise how a series of negative experiences would make you see all gay people through the same jade coloured specs. You’re not alone. I myself clocked up a number of those and maybe a number of gay people need to take a good long hard look at themselves and ask what they’re contributing to that negative perception.
    When I was on my Fine art course and just mustering the confidence to come out, my flatmate introduced me to a couple of her aqauintances who transpired to be the worst stereotypical bitch queens I could have encountered.
    They used my sexual insecurity as blackmail leverage to steal whatever they fancied from my student digs and left me thinking all the negative gay stereotypes my folks filled me with were true.
    Fortunately the next year I was introduced to a gay guy who were the polar opposite of that. A week after I met him, when I missed a coach ticket to London to meet up with my group of college friends, he sat at Victoria coach station for 2 whole hours by himself (this was before freely accessible mobile phones) on the offchance I would show up, in order to ensure if I ever showed up I’d be able to meet up with the rest of the gang. I hadn’t even phoned anyone to confirm I was coming.
    Many gay people I’ve encountered are generous spirited types, you just have the misfortune to encounter the shallow bitch queens from hell with alarming regularity, to the point that you’re probably putting the boot in before you even find out what personality type they are to prevent yourself getting hurt again. Please don’t assume that’s all there is because of a chain of bad experiences… I still think there’s someone out there for you, you’re just not looking in the right places.
    I actually respect you more for being so open here. Trust me, we’re not all terminally cynical gits just looking out for no.1. We encompass a much wider spectrum than that.
    Good luck with finding a solemate to trust anyhow.

  46. OH TONY LA-A-A-A-M-MBE-E-E-ERT CALLING TONY LAMBERT ! ! !

    DING ! ! ! TIME’S UP ! !

    YOUR FINAL SCORE ON YOUR OCCAM EXAM: 0/18 = DUNDERHEAD ! !

    Apologies will be accepted, but I’m afraid you’ll have to stand in line.

    Oh yes, in the future, you may call me Mr. Arsehole.

    Queerio; Chip Chip and all that !

  47. John K (42):

    Sorry I took so long to answer; I was busy giving a philosophy examination to Lamby Rony or something like that. Turned out to be a dude. Takes all kinds!

    What was I thinking? Of course you’re right, doc, we can’t always agree about everything. We would be like an overcrowded goldfish bowl.

    Do you remember the opening scene of Monty Python’s ‘The Meaning of Life, Part 1′, where the goldfish have human faces and go around saying ‘Good morning’ to all the other fish? Fish don’t sleep, get it?

    You’ve never had lobster? Oh well, you wouldn’t like it, here, give it to me.

    Lobsters live on the bottom of bays and we are on the southern coast of la baie des Chaleurs. In English, that means Chaleur Bay or more precisely the Bay of Heat. It was called la baie des Chaleurs because when Jacques Cartier discovered it on June 24, 1534, it was a hot day. Simple, eh?

    Anyway lobster fishing seasons are regulated by the provincial government so that the reserve of lobsters won’t be depleted. Lobster season where I live in Bathurst in northern New Brunswick (also known as the brink of civilization – no university, no symphonic orchestra, no live theatre and worse of all, no ballet company! But I’m here, and I know how to entertain myself: don’t you go taking that the wrong way, now!) begins the 1st of May and lasts until the end of the month.

    To get back to the topic of this thread, lobsters are dropped live into boiling water and it takes about 20 minutes before they are well cooked. Most people like to take the red lobster straight from the pot and place it on their plate.

    What follows has the makings of a good comedey. The idea is to get the meat out of its shell, because a lobster is a crustaceon. If there exists an elegant or gracious way of doing it, I have never seen it. You usually have to pick the thing up with both hands and break it into two parts; the tail and the claws which are attached to the body. Sound good? Yum-yum! Some dip the meat in liquid garlic butter, others prefer a bechamel sauce.

    Then, as you proceed to pluck the meat from the shell, lobster juice flies all over the place, usually landing on your guest of honor’s brand new shirt. Some people can eat one lobster, others can eat four or five at one sitting.

    You really wouldn’t like it, here, give it to me, I’ll have to eat it considering the price we pay for the damn things.

    Then you’ve got a huge plate or a bucket in the centre of the table where everyone’s been throwing their empty shells, which stink to high heaven by the way. The odor will stay on your hands for days unless you wash them with lemon juice.

    Personally, I have always hated struggling with a lobster and I usually just eat the claws a part of the tail.

    However, a few years ago, I discovered a 5-star recipe for lobster bisque.

    You go to the fish shop and you ask for a plastic bag full of frozen lobster meat, about 3 cupfulls of meat. You take it home and turn it into a mush in a blender. Once you’ve got the lobster pulp, you will have a dutch oven full to the brim with a lobster bisque in 20 minutes. A bisque looks like a thick, pinkish soup. You wouln’t like it, here, give it to me.

    Some people eat it as an entrée followed by a roast beef or Bar-B-Q steak. I don’t like red meat, so I can easily make a meal of lobster bisque with a couple slices of thick, toasted garlic French bread.

    Last year, I found a non-alcoholic red wine (I’m allergic to alcohol) that picks up the flavor of the bisque. You can swish the bisque and wine in your mouth until you discover taste buds you didn’t know you had, and then, regretably, you have to swallow it.

    The only thing missing at my place is an oversized silver-plated tablespoon and a more attrative soup bowl, the kind that is hand-made from clay. You heat up the bowl and it keeps the bisque warm longer. But it’s as I say, you really wouldn’t like it, so here, give it to me, I’ll eat it.

    On the off chance that you enjoy having a hoard of moochers coming back for more and more and more, you can find an excellent 5-star recipe on Allrecipes dot com. Just search for ‘lobster bisque’.

    Did I mention that 80% of Chaleur Bay lobsters are exported to the finest hotels in NYC as are our oysters in early Fall. You wouldn’t like them either!

    Seriously though, we are way off the subject here. Do you think Peter Tatchell would like lobster bisque? There, now we’re back on the topic.

    By the way, to answer your question, lobster is not only tasty, its ambrosial!! But you wouldn’t like…

  48. Tony Lambert 22 May 2009, 7:20am

    Wow, another overwrought hissy fit from the Canadian fool. What’s wrong with your this time, glitter get in your eyes?

    Next time try to address me at an intellectual level, and I’ll respond in such. So far, you’ve proven to be nothing but a silly, sad little bitch with the intelligence of a prune. You’re only asset is being able to tyle for hours on an internet site so you can bore us to death with your dull histrionics. If you were even one bit funny, you could be forgiven, but you’re about as funny as cancer.

    I believe someone called you a “buffoon”, in another posting? Well you insipid bore, if the glove fits….

  49. This is what Peter Tatchell went to Moscow for… two gay people having a public bitch-off. Perhaps Tony and Jean-Paul, you could just agree to disagree?

  50. I thought we had gone off-topic until I realised I might have made a typo. I said all gay men are selfish, not shellfish.

  51. RobN… HA HA HA HA HA. You are SO f*cking funny!

    Not.

  52. Tony La-a-a-a-mbe-e-e-rt ((48)

    Been using your Occam’s razor again, sweetie?

    In case you did not get the message……

    DI-I-I-I-I-I-N-N-N-N-G ! ! ! TIME’S UP ! 0/18 = PHONY

    Move aside, will you, I don’t have time for dunderheads stuck in the 14th century, intellectually speaking.

    Time for my prunes, gotta go. Then I must prepare my buffoon costume. Going to a party on the weekend. No dunderheads allowed, though. Oh, well, I suppose you’ll just have to use your lubricant all by yourself, again. Canadian bear grease does a nice job.

    Ta!

  53. Will (48):

    Thanks for the intervention. You know how much I value your comments.

    But, how come every time I’m having fun, somebody comes along and breaks my toys. You guys have fun all the time and I don’t rain on your parade, do I?

    RobN (50):

    The words out that we are having an affair. We’re an item, imagine that? I hope you don’t have bad breath, that you use underarm deoderant, that you know how to use a vacuum cleaner, that you’ll take your turn to put out the trash and do the groceries, that you won’t open my mail, and that you’ll have the common decency to introduce me whenever we bump into someone you know. Then, of course, if you snore, we will have to have separate bedrooms, and don’t put your stuff on my side of the medicin cabinet, put your dirty towels in the hamper, and for gawd’s sake, walk the frigin’ dog once in a while.

    Love you to death :0)

  54. Tony Lambert (48):

    Just for the record, I was diagnosed with bone marrow cancer last year. Ain’t that a laugh ! !

  55. Actually, Peter, I thought you did the right thing but I think you were a little over optimistic in the press coverage. There seemed to be very little about it when I looked. It seemed to be completely over-shadowed by the song contest. Now, if you could have run on the stage and outed the UK presenter…that would have been a whole different kettle of fish.

  56. Mr. Arsehole to you 23 May 2009, 6:09am

    TONY LAMBERT, CALLING TONY LAMBERT, IS THERE A TONY LAMBERT IN THE AUDIENCE?

    Not only do you not know the name of Occam’s teacher, either your spelling or your typing skill could use a few evening classes:

    ‘What’s wrong with your this time…’ (48)
    ‘…able to tyle for hours… (48)

    Just wanted you to know what a Canadian bitch I can be, sweetie.

    You not only walk like a duck, you even sound like one:

    QUACK, QUACK, QUACK, QUACK, QUACK, QUACK, QUAKE, QUACK…

    Hey,that’s it! Eureka! You are a quack!

    S’matter? Cat got your tongue, quackie?

  57. Tony Lambert:

    C’mon, it’s not whether you win or lose, it’s how you play the game. Chip, chip and all that.

    Run out of vulgar adjectives?

    Developped a sense of respect for Canada?

    Lose your Thesaurus?… maybe if you checked in Occam’s washroom. Bedroom??

    Making fun of you? Whatever do you mean, sweetie? How could I possibly run my household without a quackie court jester, minimum wages, no union and no pension plan?

    See how fair we Canadians can be? Well, that’s how women are treated here. Equal pay for equal work??? The PC’s would never go for that. The NDP maybe…

    By the way, how do you look in a tutu? We are planning a party and we need a ballerina. Do you prefer pale yellow taffeta or black crow feathers? If you can’t pirouette, just say so, we can work around it.

    You simply must come, but don’t you try to steal my glitter. Get your own makeup, and you’ll have to dye your hair, if you have any.

    The name of the ballet? We thought we’d call it ‘DUNS SCOTUS’, after a mediaeval philosopher… yawn… who taught that there was no difference between… yawn… ‘being’…yawn…and ‘essence’ and that…burp… therefore it was ‘form’ (did somebody fart?) that distinguised one thing from another… is that the doorbell again?…, and not ma, ma, ma-a-a-, matter.

    Did you know that the word ‘dunce’ comes from his followers, called DUNSES, because they opposed classical studies? Of course you do, because you know everything, don’t you?

    Duns Scotus was also the teacher of one William of Occam, who was known as a dunce because he laid the seeds for the collapse of the great…are you sleeping?…mediaeval system of philosophy by using his…er…his…hm-m-m… oh yes, his Occam’s razor.

    You know what they used to say in the OLD days: The simplest solution is the best, intellectually speaking, of course.

    Today, well, there’s no such thing as a simple solution, is there? I mean, how does one simply get to the moon?

    Bye… QUACK ….Bye you silly silly.

  58. Tony Lambert:

    So, you’re also an idiot. QED.

  59. Tony Lambert 25 May 2009, 8:56am

    Just for the record, I was diagnosed with bone marrow cancer last year. Ain’t that a laugh ! !

    Well its cheered me up, thats for sure. You’re awfully dull, and repetative. And not really funny. And the world doesn’t need more dull people like you, they offend the senses.

    Why not toddle off now, I’m sure you have something else that’s equally as fascinating to fixate on, like writing an article on the growth of grass.

    Oh, and I’d suggest you get diagnosed for OCD as well. ITs fairly obvious you have that too, but lets hope the bone marrow cancer does its good work there too.

  60. “The simplest solution is the best, intellectually speaking, of course”

    Actually, you are incorrect. Occam’s Razor, or Ockham’s Razor, states (and I’m rewriting Ockham’s Razor into its familiar form for your understanding) that “the simplest solution is often the correct solution”.

    It is the basis on which science uses the principle that “entities should not be multiplied unnecessarily” (the actual statement of Ockham’s razor)

    Please do not quote what you do not understand, and then use it incorrectly against someone else in some stupid on-line bickering:- it makes you look rather silly and childish.

  61. Tony, that’s an awful thing to say about Jean Paul. I do not agree with Jean Paul’s sometimes tiresome focus on your for what ever reason, but to wish ill on him for no reason is below the belt. Jean Paul has a condition, and no matter what is entitled to his views. We don’t have to agree with them. We have enough degenerate nuts in here like Skinner without becoming like them ourselves. Leave the “wishing you were dead” to Skinner and his kind, we’re above that.

  62. Brian Burton 3 Jun 2009, 6:48am

    How dare anyone say anything bad about ‘That Wonderful Person Jean Paul.’ Thank you for rebuking that Tony person Will.
    Those who find ugly meanings in beautiful things are corrupt and really lack charm. Those who find beautiful meanings in beautiful things are the culivated.

  63. Brian Burton 3 Jun 2009, 6:54am

    I have followed Peter Tatchell’s progress since the Mary Whitehouse Blastphemy days. Some were born great, some achive greatness and some have greatness thrust upon them–Great P.T.!

  64. Jean-Paul 3 Jun 2009, 3:49pm

    Will, Brian:

    Thanks for the support, sincere thanks.

    I know I’m inclined to babble sometimes, and I can understand people being annoyed with me. C’est la vie. As Robert said, it was stupid on-line bickering, and I was just making it worse.

    Chances are, if I ever met Tony, I would probably like him.

    Anyone with cancer, or anyone who has survived cancer (like I will), understands that a medical condition can actually trigger unimaginable courage, no matter what. Hopefully, it will me a wiser person, too.

    Gros merci.

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