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Exclusive: BNP describes gay politicians as ‘buggers and criminals’

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  1. We got one of the BNP leaflets delivered today – wondered who had delivered it – now I foind it’s our ‘sweet old village postman’ who obviously doesn’t care that he is delivering hate mail – hope he enjoyed his 6 pence per leaflet (or whatever they got. . . grrrr

  2. this website provides some interesting insights in the BNP’s activities.

  3. Andy Armitage 15 May 2009, 4:24pm

    They don’t do themselves any favours, do they? Not that I’d want to vote for them anyway. But they’ve got a lot of growing up to do if this is the best the BNP can do.

  4. I also received a leaflet today by my local posty. Perhaps he’s not politically minded or so depressed by the recession and MP’s extravagant expenses, that he cant be bothered. He probably thinks wherever you turn, they are all crooks.

  5. OK to everyone who posted on the other BNP thread under the delusion that they’re working for the good of the LGBT community, let’s hope this finally puts the last nail in the coffin of that idea. I don’t give a damn if they despise nationalities or religions with a track record of homophobia and want to prevent them from entering the UK, they simply hate everyone who isn’t exactly like them, and that includes all the LGBT posters on this site.
    I’m capable of fighting my own equality battles thankyou very much, without resorting to disfunctional allegiances with bigots.

  6. The BNP really are horrid and play to people’s ‘fear’ of gay people, and everyone else really!

    I completely disagree with the exposure of that MP’s gaydar page too. It’s not like gaydar is a family site, it’s a gay dating site (albeit a vile one!). So what’s the problem?

    Oh, I forgot, the problem is homophobia.

  7. Simon Murphy 15 May 2009, 4:37pm

    Bizarre. Martin Webster was the leader of the racist National Front about 20 years ago and the BNP leader Nick Griffin was one of his closest lieutenants for 3 years. Martin Webster was openly gay among his fellow activists. And he claimed to have had a gay relationship with Nick Griffin. Griffin denies this nowadays but these rumours about his own sexuality surface occasionally.

  8. A family party with family values!! ARGH!! Never mind the fact that the concept of family values is as flawed as a fish with lungs, even if it were an ideal to pursue, these people are blatantly against the rights of certain types of families and morality. I feel like tearing my internal organs out just so I can die in pleasure after hurling them in frustration at members of the BNP. For all those people who fear that idiots such as these will gain votes because of the current disrepute about MPs’ expenses, I hope people will realise just how vile and disgusting this crowd of bigots really is.

  9. Can’t gays also be criminals? What’s wrong with pointing out those who are? As for buggers, well need I say more?

  10. “Mr Leppert told PinkNews.co.uk that the gay MPs were been included because: “It fits in with the headline, the bugger part, I guess.”

    Funny how all the morons on here who have been blindly defending the BNP in other threads are strangely silent.

    a vote for BNP is a vote for ruining all the progress made for us in the past 30 years – you might as well live under shariah law.

  11. Tim – Disingenuous much? Why did they pick up on those particular gays? It wouldn’t be because they want the general public to percieve all gay people as intrinsically untrustworthy and debased would it? Let’s conveniantly forget any gay person who makes a valuable contribution to society and just show the worst of the bunch in a political pamphlet.
    And ‘buggers’ as if you didn’t know is a loaded derogatory term. I won’t even bother asking who you’re voting for at the next election, I think you’ve made your political views crystal clear.

  12. Ann Onymouse 15 May 2009, 5:34pm

    I love that the BNP seem to be getting pally with the “Joel’s Army” type of Christian fundamentalists that are infiltrating our religious institutions. What interesting bedfellows they make.

  13. No, Tim, you don’t need to say more, you clearly share the lower brow bigotry of the BNP party membership. Does it make you feel big to come into a gay site and spout that nonsense?

  14. Tim wrote
    “Can’t gays also be criminals? What’s wrong with pointing out those who are? As for buggers, well need I say more?”

    . . . so what are you then

    A BNP “Bum Boy”

  15. This is just the BNP trying to grab any publicity headlines they could get their hands on, cos the Euro elections are coming up in a couple of weeks.

    I haven’t received the BNP leaflet in the post yet, but if I do, the leaflet will be going straight where it belongs – in the bin.

  16. GAPOI – If I get one, I’ll put it on a hook next to the toilet roll. If it comes with a prepaid return envelope, all the better.

  17. The reports says that Julian Leppert told PinkNews “The only problem we have with the gay lobby is when people like Peter Tatchell get aggressive about it.”

    The above statement is practically identical to that uttered by several regular gay posters to these threads in recent weeks and months . . . and whose names, I note, do not appear amongst the Comments above, although they normally post daily.

    So I suggest it is fair to wonder if we do not have a few strange fucked-up gay BNP-supporters visiting these pages. They could well be the ones who accuse others of being Guardian and Independent readers.

    What we really need now is for Davies, Bryant, and Betts to really show some gumption and take the BNP to the cleaners. How can we encourage them to do so?

    Click here to see the offending page on the BNP website.

  18. Eddy this is very interesting . . . personally I would say that we have more than a few fucked Gay BNP voters visitng this site. . .

    I agree, lets encourage Davies, Bryant and Betts to conduct some extensive dry cleaning

  19. No surprises there from the BNP boot boys. When in doubt, bash a poof anyway you can.

  20. John K, glad you concur. Sometimes I wish this site were moderated!

    Anybody got email addresses so we can all write and urge Davies, Bryant and Betts to get together and make a defiant and proud stand against these disgusting bigots?

    By the way, has anybody been noticing, as I have over the past week, that BBC News at Ten has been giving the BNP air-time? They’ve had several 3 or 4 minute segments on News at Ten this last week and they have been allowed to come over as quite respectable. The first one I saw was Griffen talking at some BNP conference with a short interview with him after or before, and two nights ago a BNP candidate was interviewed while driving around in his car canvassing. On both occasions both BNP men were wearing some suits, deliberately said nothing outrageous, and came across as almost as “good” as any other mainstream party. What the hell is the BBC playing at?

  21. Jesus and Mohammed! Read this crap from the BNP website: “The men and women of the British National Party are motivated by love and admiration of the outpouring of culture, art, literature and the pattern of living through the ages that has left its mark on our very landscape.”

    Lovers of culture, art, and literature? . . . My sweet Shakespeare-spouting botty, they are!

  22. Tim, to be a criminal you must be convicted of something. Crime is what the law says is crime, not what some narrow-minded bigots says is crime. These guys have been convicted of noc rime. What a retarded moron you are.

  23. And they seemed like such NICE boys…
    Keith
    Salford

  24. I have not heard of anything more ridiculous than this. There are many gays in the BNP. These lists have nothing to do with gays and everything to do with paedophiles – big difference. You really need to get your facts straight.

  25. Sylvie, are you deliberately being obtuse or are you genuinely just a moron?

    The list has everything to do with gays, the BNP said so themselves; they come under “buggers”. The BNP lumped gays in with paedophiles and other criminals because they believe they are morally equivalent.

  26. Simon Murphy 16 May 2009, 3:08am

    The BNP is a hideous party. It is homophobic, racist, anti-semitic and utterly vile. However the question needs to be asked. Is a party whose leader is reputedly non-straight in any position to judge abyone else?

  27. BrazilGayScene 16 May 2009, 4:28am

    Here they go again, appealing to the lowest form of ‘Sun reader’… And what is this again about ‘promoting’ homosexuality in schools? When will these bigots learn that you cannot ‘promote’ homosexuality like some brand of bloody washing powder? My dear, if your son isn’t gay, then he isn’t gay. Period. It cannot be ‘promoted’ to him.

    What CAN be promoted to him though is tolerance, acceptance, equality and a sense of fair-play for all.. Not worthy values to promote?

    They are always the same…When in doubt, roll ‘promoting homosexuality’ out…

  28. hmm the bnp supporters that usually post, STILL SILENT

    where have you all gone?

  29. If you want to see what the bnp think, go and read the old blogsite of the former bnp leader, the thankfully deceased John Tyndall. (spearhead.com). Makes grim reading as you would expect.

  30. What nerve it is to accuse Gay MPs of moral criminality, when the BNP is known to be a racist party. Since when did racism became a family value?

  31. @ Sylvie – fuck off.

  32. Eddy/ John K – I too noticed the gay BNP presence on this site. The BNP apologists generally take the view that “muslims are worse, therefore our enemy’s enemy is our friend”. Whatever your views on Muslim fanatics or whether indeed all muslims are fanatics, siding with the most fanatical political party of the lot is like turkeys voting for Christmas.
    Who do these egits imagine the BNP will turn on next once they get their way with the immigrants?
    To any gay people still stupid enough to vote for them, start building that extention to your closet now, cause that’s where you’ll be living under BNP rule. Just because the’ve swapped the bovver boots for the buisness suits doesn’t make them different people any more than when the KKK decided they had an image problem. They’re simply more media savvy. How they have the bare-faced arrogance to canvas a gay news site for votes is jaw-dropping.
    I’ll fight my own equality battles with the other political parties without help from political pressure groups who’ll turn on me in the blink of an eye once they’re done with the immigration issue.

  33. I think we all look at the BNP to lightly. I live amongst the type of people that they will appeal to. The ones that dont work , love or help anyone, even there own kind . They have no respect for their fellow man and live by the motto, whats mine is mine and whats yours is mine. These people historically have never voted. To get up off their backside to do such a thing would not be worth it, unless of course there was a free lager invovled. BUT and it is a big BUT. THey are they peeple that if they vote, will vote BNP. They will believe the promises and take in the hype. Thats why we should all be wary and worried that the BNP might just get more votes than we all expected. Its the same with UKIP. Its just the same ideals as the BNP but wearing a better suit. ulian day

  34. Adrian, thanks for that URL to the website of the previous BNP leader. Grim grim reading, as you say.

    If there is ANYBODY here, gay or not, who has thought for a moment of voting BNP in forthcoming elections, read with a discerning eye the ACTUAL BNP view of us gay men. (Curiously, the article seems completely unaware of there are gay women, and several times warns that sensitive ladies may be offended by parts of the article!)

    Click here to read what the BNP REALLY believes about us gays

  35. Eddy . . . very interesting, I have just read the section “Colin Vernon examines the nature of homosexuality ” . . . Inciting hatred?

    Lest get some legal advice . . .

    Any Lawyers in the House?

  36. Notice this time there are none of those BNP “supporters” coming in here trying to convince us that the “gays are very far down the list” as per previous posts… where are they now? Paper thin lies, that’s why, its fairly obvious what the BNP would like to do gay people….

    …but then again, thats why they’re some minority fringe part of criminals and fascists.

  37. Will wrote

    “…but then again, thats why they’re some minority fringe part of criminals and fascists.”

    . . . and the BBC giving then attention, air space, a voice ?

    Will, I am not having a go at you. Also I have never voted BNP. Just stimulating debate)

  38. Will – If you want to know where all the BNP supporters have disappeared to, David Skinner is lurking on the Adoption agency thread.
    Be sure to let him know where you stand.

  39. Flapjack . . . thanks for the “David Skinner” . . . Alert

  40. Oh Flapjack I am really disappointed in you – I was hoping that I would be able to get through an entire threads worth of reading without seeing that name! (he he). And for some reason it always reminds me of Principal Skinner from the Simpsons – but, the cartoon character he is more believable. I digress.

    I spent two hours yesterday examining the BNP website. I was interested in how they dress up their underlying philosophy as a package which is aimed at projecting an air of current respectability. Examining their constitution (which is hidden in a little section – is most revealing……as you might imagine)

    I don’t normally vote actually (for very well thought-out reasons – which I won’t go into here) but I will be voting this time in response to the BNP. It makes me a hypocrite actually – but, that’s the lesser of two evils I have to decide.

    However, interestingly, I found one policy statement of the BNP that I actually do agree with!!! – and that is that people’s religion is a private affair which should be confined to their own private lives (how do they say?) “and behind closed doors”. This seems to be a classic example of reaching a noble conclusion through crazy argumentation!

    Apart from the flipancy here – I am worried about possible BNP popularity on the back of the expenses fiasco – enough to bring me out to vote in such a corrupt system. Please don’t hold it against me???

  41. @John K – My pleasure.
    @richard – Yeah, sorry, I couldn’t resist bringing him up. I haven’t clearly established whether he’s pro-BNP or anti, but just as most BNP members decry Hitler but conveniantly blank the millions of points of comparison between their own manifesto and Mein Kampf, David Skinner drives me to Godwin’s Law on a regular basis.
    It seems David Skinner wants all children protected from the LGBT community, regardless of any criminal intent on our part.
    Vote BNP and people who think like him will be on the ascendant.

  42. Robert, ex-pat Brit 16 May 2009, 1:59pm

    Sounds like the BNP is in lock-step with the RC and C of E cults, among others, virtually identical beliefs.

  43. Robert ex-pat – I’ve noticed that the evangelical right wing who post here tend to chant from the same hymnsheet as the BNP… succumb to our milder forms of gay rights suppression or we won’t be there to protect you from the latent threat of sharia law.
    I vote for option 3, reject any kind of LGBT suppression, full stop.
    I’d sooner go down fighting for my hard-won rights than surrender them by degrees.

  44. Spot the Difference Competition

    Julian Leppert:

    On Mr [Chris] Bryant’s Gaydar controversy, he said: “It’s not a crime legally, but it’s a crime morally.

    “Homosexuality is part of life, it’s inevitable. But people should have discretion. They’re bringing political life into disrepute, although it might not strictly be criminal.”

    Sister Mary Clarence:

    “Little Shirley Twat [Chris Bryant]…..our very own rent-a-gay MP……what a shining role model he is for the gay community strewn all over the press in a pair of week old undies hawking his arse on Gaydar……..those in public office should conduct themselves in a manner fitting of that public office and I don’t think Mr Bryant has done so”.

  45. Robert, ex-pat Brit wrote
    “Sounds like the BNP is in lock-step with the RC and C of E cults, among others, virtually identical beliefs.”

    . . . they all have a lot in common. Strange how the first thing that sprung to mind was “Hatred of homosexuality”

  46. Ivan
    Sister Mary Clarence is still going on about the Gallup poll and Eddy on the news thread below.

    “Gay Minister Ben Bradshaw tells PinkNews.co.uk that Daily Telegraph’s expenses expose was ‘homophobic’”

    Just thought I would alert you to this

  47. Ivan, well-spotted near-identical statements! I think we may be finally whipping off that nun’s habit and unmasking her/him for who she/he really is.

    John K, no, you don’t say! LOL. SinisterMC is still banging on about what she perceives to be “the lies” of the Gallup report? Poor demented bitch. I can see her: on the floor, frothing at the mouth, crucifix up her arse, “It ain’t true, it ain’t true!” And actually very happy! :)

  48. Someone get Sala White to cough up an advertising fee and stop spamming the comments threads with off-topic plugs.

  49. Abi Chrisopher 16 May 2009, 4:51pm

    The former BNP leader has got Nick Griffin down to a T

    “Long ago, I came to realise that as far as Nick Griffin is concerned policy stances are simply things to be adopted or discarded in accordance with how they further his ends in the factional wars in which, for his whole political life, he seems to have been engaged. His tactics are nothing if not consistent. He ascertains the policy stance of the person he perceives to be his current rival, and he then adopts a different one – so that he can then present his position as arising out of political necessity rather than egotism and ambition. He gets away with this with many people because he has a silver tongue that at times can be extremely persuasive. It takes getting to know the man to see through his tricks.

    The ‘gay’ story

    Well, it is interesting to learn that Nick Griffin these days considers defamation of himself a cause for action against the defamer, for this did not seem to be his attitude back in 1999, when a former high ranking National Front official, Martin Webster, put out a circular alleging a homosexual relationship between himself and Griffin back in the late 1970s. Webster, in doing this, challenged Griffin to take him to court for libel if the allegation was untrue.”

    Read it on this link spearhead.com/0310-jt2.html

    What other part provides you with the info to bring them down spread the word Griffin is closeted we must bring him out of it

  50. Abi Chrisopher 16 May 2009, 5:00pm

    I feel dirty now after reading that stuff but I hope it was for the greater good.

  51. Nick Griffin lives in a small hamlet in practically deserted all-white Powys. I seem to remember the name starts with double LL (Ll…….). Maybe we could get someone to do a house-watch, see if it’s only men who come and go from his house (with maybe a token lesbian/beard now and again?)

  52. Cllr Julian Leppert - BNP 16 May 2009, 9:48pm

    Lots of anti-BNP comments on here, but consider this folks: One way or another, Britain is going to change radically over the next few decades. By 2030 or so, Downing Street will be occupied by somebody like Nick Griffin, or somebody like Abu Hamza. If its the former, life for British gay people will be much the same as now. If its the latter… good luck!

  53. Abi Chrisopher 16 May 2009, 10:07pm

    Who are you kidding you fascist bastard we don’t want your sort on here piss off and tell Nick his secret is out so its time to come out of his closet.

  54. @ Cllr Julian Leppert – BNP

    Your post does, of course, constitute a not very sophisticated non sequitur (it’s Latin, look it up).

    Besides, after the events of last week, Downing Street is more likely to end up being occupied by Joanna Lumley – in which case life for gay people would be Absolutely Fabulous and your Mr Griffin would find a Ghurka’s bayonet up him. But then again, he might like that.

  55. @ Cllr Julian Leppert – BNP – Who the hell do you think you’re kidding. Life for gay people would be, under the BNP, not too far unlike it was for gay people under Hitler’s Germany.

    Do yourself and everyone else a favour and wise up you bigoted bastard.

    P.S: If you send me any BNP political flyers in the run-up to the forthcoming european elections, I’ll be sure to mark them “return to sender”.

  56. Ivan . . . your response to Cllr Julian Leppert – BNP

    Brillant!!!

  57. I don’t have much time for SMC (well, none really) but in another thread described himself as the “token black man” on here so I think you’ll find he may not be the BNP supporter some of you may think he is.

  58. Cllr Julian Leppert – BNP Wrote
    “Lots of anti-BNP comments on here, but consider this folks: One way or another, Britain is going to change radically over the next few decades. By 2030 or so, Downing Street will be occupied by somebody like Nick Griffin, or somebody like Abu Hamza. If its the former, life for British gay people will be much the same as now. If its the latter… good luck!”

    . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

    Cllr Julian Leppert Wrote
    “Lots of anti-BNP comments on here
    JohnK Response”
    Why do you think gays are so anti-BNP?

    Cllr Julian Leppert Wrote
    “One way or another, Britain is going to change radically over the next few decades”
    JohnK Response
    In what way do you see Britain changing in the next few decades?

    Cllr Julian Leppert Wrote
    “By 2030 or so, Downing Street will be occupied by somebody like Nick Griffin, or somebody like Abu Hamza. If its the former, life for British gay people will be much the same as now. If its the latter… good luck!”
    JohnK Response
    In what way would Nick Griffin support gay rights if he was PM?

  59. Cllr Julian Leppert – I refer you to Eddy’s link from a BNP website on post 35. And this is a better deal for us how? The way you paint the future, we’re screwed either way, so we’d better vote for the party that hates us marginally less.
    Well excuse me if I don’t feel like tattooing the word “POLITICAL DOORMAT” in large capital letters across my forehead just yet. We still vote, you know.

  60. Abi Chrisopher 17 May 2009, 2:55am

    What we really want to know Cllr Julian Leppert is what was Nick Griffin doing with National Front official, Martin Webster in the late 1970s for Webster to say they had a homosexual relationship?

    Do you not see the hypocrisy of Nick Griffin to instruct your party to attack other politicians for being gay and using words like buggery when describing them. When it is alleged Nick himself was in a relationship with Mr Webster. Will Griffin be describing himself as a practitioner of buggery in this election Cllr Leppert.

    If you want our vote these are thing you really should tell us.

  61. There is a new posting on the BNP campaign to get Nick Griffin elected to the European parliament at:

    petertatchell.net

    As ever, well worth reading.

  62. Ivan, (Comment 55), I like your humour! Very amusing! You wrote: “Besides, after the events of last week, Downing Street is more likely to end up being occupied by Joanna Lumley – in which case life for gay people would be Absolutely Fabulous and your Mr Griffin would find a Ghurka’s bayonet up him. But then again, he might like that.”

    Not so sure though about an accomplished actress (i.e. expert at portraying – faking – emotions) taking control of all important matters regarding this country.

    Abi Christopher have mailed the contradiction you have located (i.e., gays listed under “Liars, Buggers, and Thieves” while Nick Griffin has been revealed to have had a long gay relationship) to gary.anderson@sundaymirror.co.uk who I note today has written a scathing warning to readers regarding the BNP in the Mirror.

    Let’s get this matter (Griffin’s homosexuality) out in the public arena again NOW, before the forthcoming elections.

  63. theotherone 17 May 2009, 1:34pm

    just after visiting Crombie in Edinburgh yesterday I had a lovely BMP suporter try to force hate lititure on my. I told them to f–k off (thinking, ofcorse, of Christopher Isherwood as I did it) only to get a stream of abuse thrown my way.

    i was hartend to see that on one acepted the hate lititure being offerd. Perhaps indicitive of Edinburgh…

  64. Theotherone, hmmm, sensible indeed to look closely at the literature first (and scan it for the name of the party involved) instead of taking a copy and then finding out!

  65. Abi Chrisopher 17 May 2009, 4:26pm

    The BNP have scored a dramatic own goal today when they questioned the award of a VC to Johnson Beharry because he is an immigrant. They claim Beharry who’s heroics, which saved the lives of 30 fellow soldiers, were simply “routine”.

    On its website the far-right political party states that Lance Corporal Beharry only received Britain’s top military honour because of “positive discrimination by the PC-mad government”.

    Grenada-born L/Cpl Beharry was honoured in 2005 after twice saving lives under enemy fire. He became the Army’s most high-profile war hero when he received the VC for “repeated extreme gallantry and unquestioned valour” for the two rescues in May and June 2004 “despite a harrowing weight of incoming fire”.

    The Army is a good recruiting ground for the BNP but I doubt many soldiers will be voting for them after this stunt.

    New wheels for the BNP bus please as they seem to have fallen off.

    A lot of military forums have also got wind of the Nick Griffin and Martin Webster homosexual relationship story I wonder how that happened lol.

  66. theotherone 17 May 2009, 6:51pm

    it’s the tell tale union jack header that alerted me.

    always stand up tov fachists I say!

  67. theotherone 17 May 2009, 6:53pm

    it was the tell tale union jack header that got me.

    ‘Always chalange fachists’ says Auntie theotherone ;-)

  68. theotherone 17 May 2009, 6:55pm

    oh and…

    useing the Union Flag and then atacking a War Hero? Talk about a lack of consistancy!

  69. Abi Chrisopher 17 May 2009, 7:04pm

    Well it is the organisation who’s idea of bravery is following a minority down a side street in a gang and giving the person a kicking.

  70. Abi wrote: “A lot of military forums have also got wind of the Nick Griffin and Martin Webster homosexual relationship story”

    Sounds excellent, Abi! Really, one needs to rattle the old brain cells and think who to contact. I suppose:
    1. think deprived all-white areas, many of them up north,
    then
    2. all peoples’ organizations in such areas.
    and let ‘em know the facts?!?!?!?!?!?

  71. Fascinating to read all of the comments regarding the British National Party. Such a party tried to start in Australia, ‘One Nation’ but our Conservative Parties ( The Liberal and National Parties here, took on most of ‘One Nation’s’ policies and they have disappeared off the electoral map. With Britian’s first past the post electoral system, I cannot see how they will get a major presence in the House of Commons? Do they have anyone in the House of Lords? I suppose the BNP get elected to Council and the Euorpean Parliament. Britian has different socail problems than Australia (we are a nation of immigrants from all over the world) Britian has a heritage and I must say I do feel some sympathy for Britian losing some of its identity, but the BNP is not the way to go to protect it! The Islam problem is huge though and the Western Culture has to prepare itself for a fight and to protect freedoms gained. All people need to be very careful as to how they vote and check what candidiates stand for?

  72. Hi Brenton. Nice to hear from an Aussie! Yeah I guess what you say is true. It was a big surprise here recently to hear your Kevin Rudd has adopted the conservative line on same-sex marriages. Australia still doesn’t even have civil partnerships across all states, does it?

  73. Chris P, thanks for your reply. Our Labour Prime Minister is very anti-gay. Kevin Rudd cannot even manage to get the words ‘gay’ or same-sex marriage between his lips. The Australian Labor Party has once again announced that there will be no same-sex marriages in this country. There are no for real civil partnerships either in the states. Anything that threatens the Marriage Act is pounced upon by the National government which controls the Mariage Act. So the states cannot do anything for real! Only in several states you can register your relationship, but it means zilch. It is like fill out some papers, feel happy that we have given you something to do , but we are giving you NOTHING. What has angered many gay people here is that The Labor Government have updated anti-discrimination laws so that now defacto gay couples on welfare( say a gay couple living together on the Aged Pension) have to declare that they live together to Social Security but have no rights officially as same-sex couples. So before, a gay couple having no rights at all would finacially be treated as singles are now to be officially classed as a defacto couple, but as I said have no rights to be married and get the rights associated with that. There is no hope at all in Australia for same-sex marriage from either of the large political parties. Only the Australian Greens are openly and forcefully pursuing same-sex marrige rights in Australia. The leader of The Australian Greens is Senator Bob Brown from Tasmania who has been openly gay since entering politics. Many friendships are being lost in Australia between gay people who are loyal Labor Party people and those like myself who now support the Australian Greens. I feel very angry and let down by the Australian Labor Party, especially this ultra-conservative new Prime Minister. People waited 10 years to get rid of John Howard and now we are stuck with someone who seems to be even worse! We may have sunshine over here but the sun is not shining for gay , lesbain or transgender people in Australia. You are light years ahead in Britian.

  74. david skinner 18 May 2009, 12:08pm

    I heard my name mentioned.
    The word criminal simply means that which breaks the law. Doubtless there are good and moral people in repressive states who are deemed criminal, simply because they refuse to conform to godless laws. Hundreds of thousands of Christians living today in Islamic countries and others like North Korea and China, just like the early Christians, are enslaved, imprisoned and murdered because they refuse to bow down and worship the state.

    Without any fixed point of reference, like a ship without a compass or captain, our society is drifting in a sea of moral relativity, changing its attitudes and values according to the political climate. The passengers and crew do not mind where the ship is going, just so long as everything is running smoothly and everyone has the feel- good factor. The only moral compass is a constantly changing political correctness- the average consensus at any particular moment. What might be shocking and completely unacceptable behaviour can almost overnight become respectable and what was previously considered to be decent and responsible behaviour can become criminalised.

    Already there are political paedophile parties in German and Holland.
    In Scotland James Rennie the chief executive of Leith-based LGBT Scotland, which supposedly counsels sexually confused youngsters has been found guilty of heading up the worst child abuse ring ever uncovered in Scotland. One of his homosexual mates Strachan, who was married until his divorce in 2001, has already served three years for indecent assault on a young boy while running the Edinburgh branch of Celtic Boys Club. Robert King, the conductor and founder of the prestigious Baroque orchestra, the King’s Consort has recently been released from Wormwood Scrubs after only serving two years of a four year sentence for indecently assaulting young boys. His victims and their parents must be delighted. No doubt they are already on their way to vote for BNP.

    Without any fixed, absolute point of reference, human nature has a way of accommodating and becoming comfortable over a period of time with a state of hell. It can gradually sleep walk into becoming hardened, desensitised to cruelty, barbarism and evil, until what was considered abnormal or deviant becomes the acceptable norm, as happened in Nazi Germany, Russia, China, Cambodia and now even California with the Folsom Street Fair. This, as most of you know, is where hundreds of men baring their genitals, masturbate in public; where orgies of men fellate and fondle each other in the street and where men and women beat each other with whips and women walk around with their breast exposed. The fair – which celebrates sadomasochism – has been running since 1984, and is now California’s third largest spectator event. How soon before it arrives in Britain with a congratulatory speech from either Boris Johnson or even David Cameron talking about the contributions that LGBTs make to society. Some contributions.

    John Adams, the second president of the United States of America (1797–1801)
    could not have put it better when he said: ‘We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. Avarice, ambition, revenge, or gallantry, would break the strongest cords of our Constitution as a whale goes through a net. Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.’ …
    “Our Founders had a better answer than government or even education. God is the answer. God is the moral compass of America. Or He should be, if we ever want to restore morality in our homes and civility to our land. Our Founders believed morals flowed from one’s accountability to God, and that, without God, immoral anarchy would result.”

  75. Abi Chrisopher 18 May 2009, 12:41pm

    Is that the same God David Skinner who today his representatives from the Church in Ireland are being shamed in a report into the large scale abuse of children numbering tens of thousands.

    How many of those children went on to be abusers themselves Skinner trained by the church of Jesus Christ? I a link between paedophilia and anything exists it would be the link between members of the christian and catholic churches and that vile act. The numbers of victims of paedophilia by members of the christian and catholic churches must number in the millions.

    You know no link exists between homosexuality and paedophilia so I challenge you Skinner come up with a link or face the courts for defamation.

  76. As usual, D.Skinner cherry-picks. The same condemnation could easily be said of Christians if cherry-picking. Point is, you make no case Skinner.

  77. Skinner has a problem: he’s most unhappy in his skin. He’s a tormented individual who must spend his time on an internet site with gay men and women telling them he isn’t gay.

    Brenton, thanks for filling in the details. Glad you saw my message. Yes, heard pretty awful things about the Howard govt over the years and then when Rudd got in we expected something like Obama, esp. after he got all these people like Cate Blanchett together to ask them how they wanted him to run the country. Surely they didn’t tell him to suppress the gays?! And how can Rudd even think of maintaining his attitude in a country that is famous throughout the world for its annual Mardi Gras in Sydney? On economic grounds alone, he ought to be impressed! Oh, well. In the end, you’ll win. It’s just going to take a longer than expected. You’ve probably got just as many nutters per head of population in Aussie as we’ve got here. People like the Skinner creature above.

  78. david skinner 18 May 2009, 1:53pm

    Abi, but you have just made the connection yourself, Roman Catholic homosexual priests with paedophilia. This is nothing new. It doesn’t matter whether they are Roman Catholic, atheist, Nazi or Tongan fire- eating homosexuals; the connection is there.

    70% of paedophilia is committed by so- called heterosexuals who represent 99- 98 % of the population whilst the remaining 30% is committed by homosexuals who make up 1-2% of the population. What does that tell you?

    None of this alters the biblical stance on human sexuality and marriage. The fact that the institutional church over the centuries has been guilty of all manner of crimes, including persecuting and burning at the stake those who would print the bible so that the common people could read it for themselves, does not reflect well on Christians. I agree it is a scandal, one which Cardinal Cormac Murphy-O’Connor tried to cover up in 2003 with the case of the paedophile priest, Michael Hill. I don’t’ need to remind you that it was the establishment priests of the day who had Jesus Christ crucified.

    If the Anglican Church ordains homosexual and lesbian bishops the number of abuses we have already seen will be nothing compared to what is to come.

    Jesus Christ said it would better for mill stone to be put around the neck of someone and thrown into the sea rather then lead a child astray.

  79. david skinner 18 May 2009, 2:06pm

    Sydney the sodomite capital of the southern hemisphere:

    The magazine GenerationQ reported in 2008:

    “Hundreds of men are being raped in Sydney and it’s eastern suburbs every year a report from the Eastern and Central Sexual Assault Service at Royal Prince Alfred Hospital has claimed.
    They have recorded 44 male victims both gay and straight of sexual assault last year, although manager Lisa Simpson said the figure was just “the tip of the iceberg”.
    Health experts have warned that men can be just as much of a target for sexual predators as women, although most men were not aware of the threat that lurked every time they went to the pub. The perpetrators are usually straight males who have “sex with men” and like to dominate but they do not necessarily identify as gay.
    There have been 293 since 2001.
    Up to 95 per cent of male victims did not report the crime to police.
    “There is a huge denial about same-sex sexual assault,” Ms Simpson said.”

  80. Abi Chrisopher 18 May 2009, 2:40pm

    1 Corinthians 13

    Love

    (1)If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. (2)If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. (3)If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames, but have not love, I gain nothing.

    (4)Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. (5)It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. (6)Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. (7)It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

    You Davis Skinner are a man without love however much you shout and try and earn your salvation by being a zealot. You fall down at the most fundamental point of Christianity LOVE.

  81. Once more, for the record:

    1) Ninety eight per cent of sexual offences against children are committed by heterosexuals. Around 70% is committed by the parents. The remainder is usually by other members of the family or those known to the family.

    Source: UK Home Office.

    2) Data is sketchy on account of institutional difficulties in many parts of the world but LGBT people are usually reckoned to make up between 5 – 10% of the population with 6% being the most generally accepted figure. Fully six in ten of the population therefore commit only two in ten sex crimes against children.

    Source: Various

    3) Nicholas Groth and H. Jean Birnbaum of the Forensic Mental Health Program, Harrington Memorial Hospital, Massachusetts, USA arrived at the following conclusion:

    “A random sample of 175 males convicted of sexual assault against children was screened with reference to their adult sexual orientation and the sex of their victims. The sample divided fairly evenly into two groups based on whether they were sexually fixated exclusively on children or had regressed from peer relationships. Female children were victimized nearly twice as often as male children.

    All regressed offenders, whether their victims were male or female children, were heterosexual in their adult orientation.

    There were no examples of regression to child victims among peer-oriented, homosexual males.

    The possibility emerges that homosexuality and homosexual pedophilia may be mutually exclusive and that THE ADULT HETEROSEXUAL MALE CONSTITUTES A GREATER RISK TO THE UNDERAGE CHILD THAN DOES THE HOMOSEXUAL MALE.”

    (My capitals)

    4) Continued discussion of this issue by certain people will force me to repeat the amusing but telling “porno video and errections” conclusions of the Adams Wright Lohr study showing the link between homophobia and repressed homosexuality.

  82. Pumpkin Pie 18 May 2009, 2:53pm

    “70% of paedophilia is committed by so- called heterosexuals who represent 99- 98 % of the population whilst the remaining 30% is committed by homosexuals who make up 1-2% of the population. What does that tell you?”

    Sources, please! :D

    “None of this alters the biblical stance on human sexuality and marriage.”

    Does it alter the Bible’s stance on the subservience of women to men, or the acceptability of offering up little girls to be gang-raped by thugs?

    While I’m at it, I’ve always wondered why “thou shalt not tolerate slavery” wasn’t one of the 10 Commandments, given how comparatively trivial some of them were. Oh wait, no I haven’t – it’s because the Bible was written by people who lived in a society where slavery was tolerated. I don’t care that the Bible said “be nice to your slaves”, the fact that it didn’t condemn slavery is just horrible.

  83. “Skinner” quotes in Comment 79 “The perpetrators are usually straight males who have ‘sex with men’ and like to dominate but they do not necessarily identify as gay.”

    So, the men described above are like you then, Skinner, i.e., they won’t permit themselves to identify as gay but they can’t keep away from the gays!

    They’re fuck-ups, Skinner. Like you are.

  84. david skinner 18 May 2009, 5:07pm

    No Eddy, it just goes to prove that sodomites are not born and that what we might call homosexuality can be caught like any other infectious disease. As human nature becomes more depraved and bestial is seeks sexual gratification in anthing: dead bodies, animals,walls, pavements etc. You may have noticed that the American Psychiatry Association now identifies thirty different types of sexual orientation.

  85. I’m partial to Walls myself. Nothing like a bit of Chocolate Chip on a hot day.

  86. David Skinner wrote
    “No Eddy, it just goes to prove that sodomites are not born and that what we might call homosexuality can be caught like any other infectious disease. As human nature becomes more depraved and bestial is seeks sexual gratification in anthing: dead bodies, animals,walls, pavements etc. You may have noticed that the American Psychiatry Association now identifies thirty different types of sexual orientation.”

    My questions to David skinner
    1. Do all homosexuals engage in anal intercourse?
    2. Do heterosexuals not engage in anal intercourse?

  87. david skinner 18 May 2009, 11:53pm

    John K, let’s go back to the beginning; there are men and there are women and, just like the animals that went into the ark two by two, they complement one another. Dare I say they were designed for one another. In fact, the woman was formed from the man, from his side, and then rejoined to form one flesh again. Whilst the man was created from the dust of the earth, the woman was made from the man. They both form constituents parts a whole and in their union they create new life.

    Men and women are free to frustrate and pervert the purpose of sex, by engaging in all kinds of behaviour, including adultery and masturbation. Men can abuse their bodies by placing their members in any amount of orifices, apart from that of the vagina of their wives. David Mixner, guest of Sarah Brown boasted that homosexuals have much to teach so- called heterosexuals about breaking new frontiers in sexual activity. The homosexual is at the very cutting edge of breaking down the barriers and boundaries. In other words of creating disorder – of deconstructing sex, marriage, the family and children. In any other age Gordon Brown and Tony Blair would be in prison, not just for producing corrupt governments but for declaring war on husbands, wives, mothers, fathers, children and the unborn baby. But they should not imagine that they will have done this with impunity. Justice, one day, will be done.

  88. Its very apt David Skinner you post your hate and bigotry on a thread about fascists. But I guess you just call them friends!

  89. david skinner 19 May 2009, 7:46am

    Abi, I am not a member of the BNP who seem to have had a bit of a make over recently. No doubt if they ever got into power, the wraps would come off and they would then show their true colours. Like individuals on this site they seem to be misusing the Bible in order to justify their hunger for power.
    Leaving that aside, it is hardly likely I am going to have warm feelings towards those use oppression to drive those of us who uphold “traditional” family values out of our jobs, force us to attend brain – washing courses , fine us, forcibly groom our children with so- called compulsory sex education, sexually abuse our children disproportionately, compared to their numbers, more than other sections of the community, separate our children from their natural families and give them into the hands of gays and finally threaten us with seven years in prison if we say so much as “boo” about homosexuality.

    It is not so much the declaration of war on God’s creation, the family centred around a mother and father, that fills me with anger but using of our children as goods and services.

    As for those who misappropriate verses from the Bible in order to show that Christians are supposed not to feel hatred towards evil, they need to read again the words of Christ concerning what he will do towards cowards, liars, slanderers, cheats, those who use obscenity, adulterers, murderers, sexual perverts, homosexuals and God haters when he returns.

    Maybe you feel in a position to rewrite the Bible?

    On the Today Programme 4 November 1998, Mr Straw said:

    “I’m not in favour of gay couples seeking to adopt children because I question whether that is the right start in life. We should not see children as trophies. Children, in my judgement, and I think it’s the judgement of almost everyone including single parents, are best brought up where you have two natural parents in a stable relationship. There’s no question about that. What we know from the evidence is that, generally speaking, that stability is more likely to occur where the parents are married than where they are not.”

    Not only would this statement be caught by clause 61 of Criminal Justice and Immigration bill presently being undemocratically forced through parliament but he himself would have stood in line to be nominated “bigot” of the year by Stonewall.

    Clearly the man of “Straw“is willing to sell his conscience and soul for political power.

    Anyone who thinks that those of the British population, when they finally wake up to what is going on, who believe in upholding the “traditional family,” are just going to gladly surrender to this wickedness are plainly deluded. They are living in dream land. Civil war is on the way. It’s here already.

  90. Dear, oh, dear. How can you be so proud David in brandishing your stupidity all over the internet like that? Don’t you have any shame? The bible as fact. How positively lame of you.

    Look, we all know your silly religious stories are for your benefit, not ours. We’re more intelligent than you. Its a proven fact. No? You don’t think so? Well, since you are so keen on science, here’s some facts for you:-

    In 2008, researcher Helmuth Nyborg examined whether IQ relates to denomination and income. His results, published in the scientific journal Intelligence demonstrated that on average, Atheists scored 1.95 IQ points higher than Agnostics, 3.82 points higher than Liberal persuasions, and 5.89 IQ points higher than Dogmatic persuasions.

    And another:-

    In 1975, Norman Poythress studied a sample of 234 US college undergraduates, grouping them into relatively homogeneous religious types based on the similarity of their religious beliefs, and compared their personality characteristics. Religious Believers as a group were found to be significantly less intelligent and more authoritarian than religious sceptics.

    So, cut the “two by two in the ark” crap David, and if you are unable to quote reason, don’t pretend to try. You’re evidence is nothing but a shallow bible story, and your grasp of science seems, at best, limited to cutting and pasting NARTH nonsense.

    You’re laughable.

  91. Ciaran McMahon 19 May 2009, 8:47am

    “Civil war is on the way. It’s here already.”

    Indeed it is…. the collapse of the churches and religion in Europe is already underway.

    See Mattei Dogan’s “Religious Beliefs in Europe: Factors of Accelerated Decline”

    And David, in 1970 there were no rights for gay people. By the 1990′s it was decriminalised across Europe. Now 5 states in the EU have gay marriage, and the rest have civil unions. UK and Ireland introduced anti-gay discrimination legislation, already tested a success in the courts against religious intolerance (against retrograde individuals like you, David). And its not stopping there. Huge gains in social acceptance for gays where none existed 20 years ago. While the reverse is happening for dogmatic intollerant people like you, you are being pushed out of daily life as irrelevant and stupid (see Will’s excellent posting above which proves this quite well)

    Oh, there is a civil war alright. And we’re wining. So much gained in such a short amount of time, don’t you think?

    And you know what? You know this. Deep inside, you’re screams at a god are the cries of a dying scared animal.

  92. david skinner 19 May 2009, 9:46am

    Ciaran McMahon, you speak as though the New Jerusalem is at hand! The government also, like you, talks of a vision of an “inclusive society” founded on a philosophy that boasts “equal opportunities for all,” “respect for the dignity and worth of each person” and “mutual respect between communities“. It talks of “significant progress” having been made over the past forty years – since the first anti-discrimination legislation was introduced – towards achieving such a society in which everybody can achieve their “full potential, unfettered by prejudice or discrimination.” It claims that is unlikely that British society would be as “diverse and successful” as it is today without these “landmark pieces of legislation” …and so and so on.

    However more than a step of religious faith is required to believe this vision, for it does not accord with reality.

    The government’s so called landmark legislation over the last 12 years has been nothing more than a releasing of the bonds holding society together.

    With the huge rise in teenage abortions, teenage pregnancies, sexually transmitted diseases, the huge increase in internet pornography, child abuse, teenage mental illness, drug and alcohol abuse, divorce, children taken in care, children running away from home, the numbers of parents with serious addictions that range from taking drugs to the lottery, the rise in homelessness, rising poverty, serious debt, crimes of violence being perpetrated by feral children that were rare even amongst adults, the sheer nihilism and hopelessness of many of our children and of course the rising prison population, the numbers of people effected by the greed and corruption of government,it comes as no surprise that according to UNICEF Britain comes bottom of a league table for child well -being across 21 industrialised countries

    Ciaran. No screams; no fear – only a smouldering anger.

    As for Will, I have never heard of Helmuth Nyborg or his bogus science. The credulity that you accord him would make a witch doctor green with envy. Are you into scientism of something, one these neo – religious philosophies like evolution?

    I was personally led to the Jesus Christ of the Bible by Leslie Kemeny, arguably Australia’s greatest living scientist. I could rattle of reams of the names of Christian scientists, engineers, doctors and mathematicians. How do you account for John Polkinghorne? What about Christian writers, artists and composers like Bach? Even Einstein was a believer in some kind of Deity. What was it he said?
    “I want to know God’s thoughts; the rest are details.” and “My religion consists of a humble admiration of the illimitable superior spirit who reveals himself in the slight details we are able to perceive with our frail and feeble mind.” If his mind was frail and feeble what does that make your mind Will?

  93. Skinner has written above that “homosexuality can be caught like any other infectious disease”.

    Skinner, would you like to confirm this statement?

    Just say yes or no. You don’t need to run off to any archaic texts written by frightened primitive peoples, or to any texts written more recently by persons completely sucked in by those earlier primitive writings.

    “Homosexuality can be caught like any other infectious disease”.

    Yes, homosexuality is an infectious disease.
    or
    No, homosexuality is not an infectious disease.

  94. David Skinner Wrote
    “John K, let’s go back to the beginning; there are men and there are women and, just like the animals that went into the ark two by two, they complement one another. Dare I say they were designed for one another. In fact, the woman was formed from the man, from his side, and then rejoined to form one flesh again. Whilst the man was created from the dust of the earth, the woman was made from the man. They both form constituents parts a whole and in their union they create new life.

    Men and women are free to frustrate and pervert the purpose of sex, by engaging in all kinds of behaviour, including adultery and masturbation. Men can abuse their bodies by placing their members in any amount of orifices, apart from that of the vagina of their wives. David Mixner, guest of Sarah Brown boasted that homosexuals have much to teach so- called heterosexuals about breaking new frontiers in sexual activity. The homosexual is at the very cutting edge of breaking down the barriers and boundaries. In other words of creating disorder – of deconstructing sex, marriage, the family and children. In any other age Gordon Brown and Tony Blair would be in prison, not just for producing corrupt governments but for declaring war on husbands, wives, mothers, fathers, children and the unborn baby. But they should not imagine that they will have done this with impunity. Justice, one day, will be done.”

    . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

    1.So David if heterosexuals engage in “anal intercourse” it is the fault of homosexuals?

    2.So David heterosexuals are incapable of free choice?

    3.So David there are no heterosexuals deconstructing sexuality and gender?

    Strange how powerful we are even though as your argue yourself, homosexuals only make up 1% of the population . . .

    4.So David how do you account for homosexualities massive influence on heterosexuality?

  95. “However more than a step of religious faith is required to believe this vision, for it does not accord with reality.”

    No, that’s another one of your lies. The facts speak for themselves. We are more prevalent, with more rights, then ever. You’re “angry” because of your frustration. I pity you.

    And it does pain me to see you attempt to masquerade an intelligent argument with the words “neo-religious philosophies like evolution”.

    Such nonsense. How do you exist in the real world???

    Again this lends it to my earlier points about how stupid you clearly are. Evolution is fact. You’re silly creationist fable (its not even a theory) has zero facts to back it up. You’ll of course claim the bible as “proof”. Again, silly nonsense, as the bible is no more proof of god than Harry Potter books are proof of witchcraft. You’re boxing above your weight here. I am a scientist. You are clearly anything but someone who takes up space on a dole queue.

    To argue against evolution with no facts, no proof, only assumes we’re as stupid and as dogmatic as you are, Mr. Skinner. Oh, and because you do not understand, or know, the research I suggest, doesn’t mean anything other than I’m more educated than you. The research exists. You’ve even proven it true with your childish responses based on superstitions.

    And what’s worse is you choose this lifestyle of ignorance and foolish prejudice. And nature abhors a fool. You weren’t personally led to Jesus, you were led down a darkened path of ignorance. Next time try some proof.

    Lets hope your god forgives you of that disturbingly obvious sin.

    I for one don’t, choosing ignorance is a travesty and beneath me to argue with. You, Sir, are a prize buffoon.

  96. david skinner 19 May 2009, 1:07pm

    Eddy , infectious disease as in a philosophical, ideological, mental and emotional disease that certainly leads to sexually transmitted diseases.

    John K . Answer to number 1:

    As more and more of our speech and thought are becoming proscribed by the machinery of political correctness, it is becomes necessary for Gordon Brown to legislate, with even greater intensity ever detail of our lives- even as I type. But as soon as one creates restrictions one has to state what is permitted. The corollary of putting a restriction on criticising any and all sexual conduct is to permit everything. The homosexuals, already storming the gates of convention and established custom are beckoning the heterosexuals “to think outside the box” and so to also cast off all restraint. This will mean that in future even the adultery and fornications of John Prescott and Bill Clinton will be beyond criticism.

    Yes it has been the so- called heterosexuals who, in breaking down one sexual barrier after another since the sixties, have given human rights not only to the homosexuals to claim public acceptance but also to those behind them – those who engage in paedophilia, incest, polyamory, polygamy ,exhibitionism and even bestiality. Like a fire feeding off itself, heterosexuals are now encouraged to follow what they have let loose. All this has the blessing and funds of the government that propagates this sexual behaviour in schools, using agencies like the Family Planning Association.

    2. Of course we all have free choice. None of us is programmed or pre -determined; we are all responsible for our own decisions.

    3. I do not define people by being heterosexuals, or homosexuals in a biological sense, but as I have indicated above it was the heterosexuals, since they are 98% of the population who started the deconstruction. In the 60’s Hugh Heffner of Playboy was hugely instrumental in separating sex from marriage, and it was Alfred Kinsey who opened the homosexual flood gates.

    Going back further than that William S. Lind, writing in October 25, 2005 indicated that Marxism saw the way to undermine western society was through sex and not ideology.

    “Cultural Marxism began not in the 1960s but in 1919, immediately after World War I. Marxist theory had predicted that in the event of a big European war, the working class all over Europe would rise up to overthrow capitalism and create communism. But when war came in 1914, that did not happen. When it finally did happen in Russia in 1917, workers in other European countries did not support it. What had gone wrong?

    Independently, two Marxist theorists, Antonio Gramsci in Italy and Georg Lukacs in Hungary, came to the same answer: Western culture and the Christian religion had so blinded the working class to its true, Marxist class interest that Communism was impossible in the West until both could be destroyed. In 1919, Lukacs asked, “Who will save us from Western civilization?” That same year, when he became Deputy Commissar for Culture in the short-lived Bolshevik Bela Kun government in Hungary, one of Lukacs’s first acts was to introduce sex education into Hungary’s public schools. He knew that if he could destroy the West’s traditional sexual morals, he would have taken a giant step toward destroying Western culture itself.

    “In 1923, inspired in part by Lukacs, a group of German Marxists established a think tank at Frankfurt University in Germany called the Institute for Social Research. This institute, soon known simply as the Frankfurt School, would become the creator of cultural Marxism.

    To translate Marxism from economic into cultural terms, the members of the Frankfurt School – - Max Horkheimer, Theodor Adorno, Wilhelm Reich, Eric Fromm and Herbert Marcuse, to name the most important – - had to contradict Marx on several points. They argued that culture was not just part of what Marx had called society superstructure, but an independent and very important variable. They also said that the working class would not lead a Marxist revolution, because it was becoming part of the middle class, the hated bourgeoisie.

    Who would? In the 1950s, Marcuse answered the question: a coalition of blacks, students, feminist women and homosexuals.”

    Further back than that I suppose one would say that it was an inevitable outcome of humanist philosophy. Were not Michael Angelo and Leonardo da Vinci homosexuals. ( that enigmatic smile).

    Further back still the Bible simply states that it is as a consequence of not acknowledging the Creator but worshipping something else. Hence Sodom and Gomorrah.

    Not so strange how powerful the homosexual lobby are when we look at the spiritually bankrupt state of society as a whole. Homosexuality is the fruit and punishment that we are harvesting for turning our backs on God. The whole of the west is affected by this. Neither is it strange when we see even Pink News boasting of how powerful gays are in government and how Gordon Brown wines and dines Terrance Higgins Trust and the LGBT brigade. Perhaps the most powerful influence is the Mass Media. Homosexuals hold key posts everywhere. Lord Chris Smith whose HIV bill is costing the tax payers thousands of pounds each year controls the Advertising Standards Agency.

    If homosexuals only account for 1-2%of the population, now, that figure will rise as societal pressures and conditioning groom our children. Something which Ian McKellen is putting all his energy into at the moment.

    Society will collapse and Islam will step in. Thank you very much.

    .

  97. david skinner 19 May 2009, 1:21pm

    Will, it is no argument at all utter the magic word “science” as though I am compelled to believe. Beside which it is no good spouting science to me for I know nothing about it. Certainly Leslie Kemeny is no subscriber to evolution. True scientists know the limitations of science. There are many who think that it is just a theory and not a good one at that. Maybe you ought to listen to the debates between Richard Dawkins and John Lennox.

  98. Pumpkin Pie 19 May 2009, 1:25pm

    You may have noticed that the American Psychiatry Association now identifies thirty different types of sexual orientation.

    Those are philias, not sexualities, you colossal twit.

    sexually abuse our children disproportionately, compared to their numbers, more than other sections of the community

    No, we’ve already been through this. You provided no sources for your claims. Ivan refuted these allegations (in fact, turned them around!) and provided a source. Give us some evidence or be quiet.

    What we know from the evidence is that, generally speaking, that stability is more likely to occur where the parents are married than where they are not.

    What an utterly sleazy and dishonest thing for him to have said. You do realise that “not married” lumps those in civil unions together with those in casual relationships, right? If he had turned it around and said that stability occurs more often in civil unions than in relationships without them, he’d have found the same results, seeing as how casual relationships are by far more numerous. It’s sneaky propoganda. I’d like to see someone try to tell us that marriages are more stable than civil unions. Oh wait, they can’t.

    Even Einstein was a believer in some kind of Deity. What was it he said?

    “I believe in Spinoza’s God, who reveals Himself in the lawful harmony of the world, not in a God Who concerns Himself with the fate and the doings of mankind.”

    “… The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish. No interpretation no matter how subtle can (for me) change this. These subtilised interpretations are highly manifold according to their nature and have almost nothing to do with the original text.”

    What a profoundly stupid own goal, Skinnydip. :D

  99. “Beside which it is no good spouting science to me for I know nothing about it”

    Tell me something I didn’t already know.

    Yeah, you right. My intellect is wasted on bottom feeders like you. Burn any good books lately then?

  100. Tony Lambert 19 May 2009, 1:39pm

    “Homosexuals hold key posts everywhere”

    Yeah, baby, you better believe it!!!

    As Ciaran put it so well…

    “in 1970 there were no rights for gay people. By the 1990′s it was decriminalised across Europe. Now 5 states in the EU have gay marriage, and the rest have civil unions. UK and Ireland introduced anti-gay discrimination legislation, already tested a success in the courts against religious intolerance (against retrograde individuals like you, David)”

    Quite right! There’s an obvious trend here. And its going in our favour.

    There’s a word to describe the way its going for people who have such small minded hate, like the insipid creature calling itself David Skinner:- extinction.

  101. @Tony

    Quite right Tony. Its astounding that people like this tasteless individual thinks because he doesn’t understand something, it can’t be true. What an odd thing to be proud of. And how offensive to the rest of us, obviously more capable than he is, to assume this is true for us all?

    Yet he watches a TV without understanding its mechanics, uses a computer without understanding the scientific principles that underlie it, but accepts these to be real. Maybe the bible invented them.

    Selective science, its called. The inability to accept what is proven, based on the non-understanding of the proof.

    With people like him, we’d all still be banging rock together. Oh, silly me, he doesn’t believe in evolution. Clearly the fossil record is a tasteless joke, and carbon dating is a lie, simply because he doesn’t understand it.

    One word for Mr. Skinner: Ridiculous.

  102. Ciaran McMahon 19 May 2009, 1:50pm

    Oh, Oh, let me have a go too!!!

    One word for David: Moron.

    Sweet.

  103. “Eddy , infectious disease as in a philosophical, ideological, mental and emotional disease that certainly leads to sexually transmitted diseases.”

    Skinner, you said that homosexuality was like “any other infectious disease”, which means that you consider homosexuality to be an infectious disease.

    When asked to confirm this, you of course have seen what an utterly stupid and ridiculous thing you have uttered YET AGAIN and so you have sought to dig yourself out of your hole by claiming that you were speaking of a non-physical disease.

    Furthermore, you now advise us, AND THE WORLD, of the apparent existence of philosophical diseases, ideological diseases, mental diseases and emotional diseases. Do provide all of us here with a list of your “philosophical diseases” at least, please, complete with references to their being recognised by competent scientific bodies.

    And as if the above idiotic claim is not enough you end by stating that some kind of super-philosophical-ideological-mental-emotional disease (the name of which you of course fail to name!) “certainly leads to sexually transmitted diseases”!

    Since you state this super-disease CERTAINLY leads to sexually transmitted diseases, we had all better learn of it double-quick.

    You will now, of course, provide us with a list of studied cases of those individuals who have been documented as “certainly” having caught their sexually-transmitted diseases because of the dreadful super-disease.

    I await your response with mirth!

    FOOL.

    As Will says, above, your level of reasoning explains why you remain in the dole queue.

  104. “Homosexuality is the fruit and punishment that we are harvesting for turning our backs on God. The whole of the west is affected by this. Neither is it strange when we see even Pink News boasting of how powerful gays are in government and how Gordon Brown wines and dines Terrance Higgins Trust and the LGBT brigade.”

    Who are you really, “David Skinner”? You are totally obsessed and devoted to the fundamentalist Christian stance you hold. Are you connected with Westboro Baptist Church? Are you a member of NARTH? Is your name really Joseph Nicolosi? Why are you so obsessed with us? Why do you follow our every move? Why should a genuinely Jesus-loving normal heterosexual know details, for instance, of meetings between the THT and our PM?

  105. Eddy, there is only ONE reason he’s obsessed with us. There is ever only ONE reason. Despite protestation to the contrary, he’s a closet queer, repressed so far that he believes that if he shouts loud enough on an internet site (how brave!) at gay men who don’t share his shame, he’ll be one bit less the sad queer he knows he really is. We all know it to be true. We’ve all seen it before a thousand times.

    He’s to be pitied.

  106. david skinner 19 May 2009, 7:38pm

    Well ,well, I think the last five entries only go show how infectious the virus evolutionary humanism is with filling people with bile and bigotry -even without having a read word of Hegel or Marx. That certainly is powerful stuff!!

    Will, you claim to be a scientist and more educated than me, well that must be very nice for you, but I don’t think you know what you have written. When you say, “Yet he watches a TV without understanding its mechanics, uses a computer without understanding the scientific principles that underlie it, but accepts these to be real. Maybe the bible invented them,” what you seem to be suggesting is that the only alternative is that they came about by chance and evolution.
    Believing something exists is not the same as the methodology used to understand how it was formed. TVs, Cars, aircraft and Welsh dressers, I was always led to understand, were entities not theories. They cannot be both the object under review and the method of understanding how they were made.

    Just because I don’t understand how a TV or car was made does not stop me from believing that they were made by a designer. Indeed I know the names of many of them and know something of the processes by which their products came into being. How they were made is not just an unproven theory, like evolution. And dare I say that the universe is infinitely more complex than anything man designs.

    Clearly when people resort to childish insults, temper tantrums, and definitions of me that are as extraordinary as Richard Dawkin’s Flying Spaghetti Monster or Celestial teapot, it really is time to mercifully bring the curtain down.

  107. David Skinner wrote
    “Well ,well, I think the last five entries only go show how infectious the virus evolutionary humanism is with filling people with bile and bigotry -even without having a read word of Hegel or Marx. That certainly is powerful stuff!!”

    . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

    It is good to hear that you have read and respect Marx and Hegel.
    So having read Marx and Hegel how can you adhere to a “Fundamentalist Christian” view of the world and reality

    Moreover, Hegel is quite clear about the importance of change in his work the “The Phenomenology of Mind”.

    In his brilliant and perceptive work on Self-Consciousness, you should know that he is quite clear what change in the “Dialectic sense means”

    When he talks about the master-slave dynamic he expounds that the process always results in the flipside position being established.
    The Slave always knows the master better than master knows him/herself.

    Gay rights are simply a working out of this dialectic

    If you claim to know Hegel and Marx

    Why is that you resist this dialectic process which began to be worked out, and continues to be worked out in the 21st century

    Kind regards
    JohnK

  108. OK, Skinner baby, don’t say I didn’t give you fair warning, here it is:

    Is Homophobia Associated With Homosexual Arousal?

    Henry E. Adams, Lester W. Wright, Jr., and Bethany A. Lohr
    University of Georgia.

    The authors investigated the role of homosexual arousal in exclusively heterosexual men who admitted negative affect toward homosexual individuals.

    Participants consisted of a group of homophobic men and a group of non-homophobic men. They were assigned to groups on the basis of their scores on the Index of Homophobia.

    The men were exposed to sexually explicit erotic stimuli consisting of heterosexual, male homosexual, and lesbian videotapes, and changes in penile circumference were monitored.

    Both groups exhibited increases in penile circumference to the heterosexual and lesbian videos.

    Only the homophobic men showed an increase in penile erection to male homosexual stimuli.

    They conclude that homophobia is apparently associated with homosexual arousal that the homophobic individual is either unaware of or denies.

    PS. I see you still have no answers for the points I made at #82.

  109. “TVs, Cars, aircraft and Welsh dressers, I was always led to understand, were entities not theories.”

    Wrong. How very wrong. They are based on Scientific theories. hey couldn’t exist without scientific application of those theories. Like Evolution. Again you astound me with your ignorance. Your statement implies they “appeared” into existence. How positively 14th century of you to be so simplistic in your view.

    Your lack of understanding of the world around you defies logic.

  110. I love it how the BNP are always stopped in their tracks by our great nation of reluctant posties.

  111. david skinner 20 May 2009, 6:37am

    John K, regarding your entry above,108.
    I have never read Hegel or Marx and your quotes and comment, to my mind, demonstrate precisely what Francis Schaeffer says in “The God who is There,” The mass of people may not enter an art museum ,may never read a serious book. If you were to explain the drift of modern thought to them, they might not be able to understand it; but this does not mean they are not influenced by the things they see and hear- including the cinema.”

    How many of us, John, what proportion of the population, would be able to understand your entry or Hegel’s “”The Phenomenology of Mind”? How many would even be interested in reading it? Is it taught to kindergarten children, let alone secondary pupils. Yet its pervasive influence, coming from mass culture and the media informs area of their personal lives – like black atomic dust. The medium has indeed become the message.

    Even though the man digging a hole or the girl at the check out counter may be unable to articulate Hegelianism, they conform to its principles, one of which is that Man is a machine and personality does not exist.

    I read the Bible. Over 30% of the world adheres to the Bible and can articulate what it says – even little children. We are all able to enter the captain’s cabin and read the charts, look at the compass, read the instruments and thereby know where we have come from, where we are, where we are headed and above all know who we are.

    Those passengers who sail on the good ship Hegel, haven’t a clue as to their origin, position, destination or identities. All they know is that everyone is partying and the sun is shining. They are at the mercy of chance, of fate and the wills of their political and intellectual elites.

    What you are also saying is that homosexuality is not innate – biological – but instead a product of Hegelian philosophy, which is what I have been saying all along. Homosexuality is a product of nurture, not nature.

  112. david skinner 20 May 2009, 6:40am

    Will, Your comment 110 , regarding TV and cars,
    “Wrong. How very wrong. They are based on Scientific theories. they couldn’t exist without scientific application of those theories. Like Evolution. Again you astound me with your ignorance. Your statement implies they “appeared” into existence. How positively 14th century of you to be so simplistic in your view.
    Your lack of understanding of the world around you defies logic.”

    It is you who say that these things are the result of time and chance. What I said was that they required a designer. You must know the story of the atheist who entered Isaac Newton’s study and on admiring a model of the earth and planetary system on his desk asked who had made it. Isaac Newton apparently answered , “No one.” The man objected saying that such a beautifully made object could never have come into existence through chance. As you know Newton answered along the lines of “ If I am expected to believe that a model of our universe requires a maker, how much more does the real thing?”

    There is no way that I would attempt to cross a bridge designed by you using evolutionary principles. I am not into chance plus time, thank you very much. You seem to think that just by uttering the incantation “ its scientific” then its true. Evolution is a theory which the BBC and the mass media are purporting to be true. These assumptions are swallowed by the public without them even touching the sides or even open to questioning. This is Hegelian mass indoctrination.

  113. david skinner 20 May 2009, 7:13am

    Ivan, regarding your entry 109 and your talk of an experiment made of heterosexuals and homophobes.
    Tthe opposite of a homophobe is a homophile which is probably the correct terminology for a homosexual. So what you are telling me is that the homophobes became more sexually aroused than the homophiles.!!!! Even supposing that the homophobes were suppressed homophiles what would that prove? This would be like having an experiment conducted with non- alcoholics and alcoholics . The non- alcoholics would, as expected, show no responses when presented with a double scotch, whilst the alcoholics would become decidedly uncomfortable. Your conclusion would therefore be that the alcoholics should not try to repress their urges but to give them full expression and thereby drink themselves to death.

    Children who become excited when watching violent and pornographic films should also go and act out what they had just been watching.

    Keeping talking everyone. I need to know what makes the homophile mind tick. This is all so revealing.

  114. “It is you who say that these things are the result of time and chance”

    Er, no I didn’t. More lies? You think “chance” about about the TV?!?!?!?!?!!?!?

    My god, man, get an education!

    You see, this is where religious dogma gets you…. the stupid box. Such ignorance about the world, I feel sorry for you. You have access to the internet, you could learn if you wanted to, so I can only assume you choose this un-godly lifestyle of stupidity.

    And that is a affront to everything god gave you.

  115. David Said:- “Keeping talking everyone. I need to know what makes the homophile mind tick. This is all so revealing.”

    And we’re getting an unenlightening view into the mind of a religious nut job with the IQ of a cabbage. As Will said, your lack is understanding of the world is astounding. Did you even GO to school? I mean, what you’re saying is such utter tripe. Seriously, though, are you taking the piss? Are you suffering from a disease, or diagnosed with some form of diminished capacity?

    You’re a joke, sir, a parody of a man.

  116. @ David Skinner – I think you’ll find actually that man came from woman, not the other way around. In the womb, the early foetus develops female anatomy unless the concentrations of various hormones in the womb cause/trigger this anatomy to become male.

    My background is in developmental biology & genetics, and this is lesson 101. Oh, and was it not interesting the recent news report yesterday that a 47 million year old skull has been discovered which might fulfill the “missing link” in human evolution?

  117. @David Skinner

    Facinating.

    Can you now come up with something equally convincing as a rebuttal to the points I made at #82?

    @Declan G

    You are being cabbagist….

  118. I loathe cabbage. Especially cabbages with all the backbone of, well, a cabbage… like this Skinner chap. A most distasteful cretin.

    Its one thing to be an idiot, but to be advertising it like that all over the internet. Awful.

  119. Pumpkin Pie 20 May 2009, 5:07pm

    I read the Bible. Over 30% of the world adheres to the Bible and can articulate what it says – even little children. We are all able to enter the captain’s cabin and read the charts, look at the compass, read the instruments and thereby know where we have come from, where we are, where we are headed and above all know who we are.

    Those passengers who sail on the good ship Hegel, haven’t a clue as to their origin, position, destination or identities. All they know is that everyone is partying and the sun is shining. They are at the mercy of chance, of fate and the wills of their political and intellectual elites.

    You must be fucking kidding me. Religious doctrine is the one where “because we said God said so” is the best sort of answer you can get, where everyone interprets the source material differently and is 100% convinced that their version of their religion is correct, all because there’s no way to actually test who’s right.

    The scientific method is the one where experiments, observations and results are grounded in reality, where if somebody wants to know how you arrived at a conclusion you can actually show them the data and analyse it together with them. The scientific method is the one where cowardly bigots can’t hide their puerile rubbish behind an imaginary shield, it’s the one where reality prevails and everyone has a right to ask questions and receive answers. Your analogy is backwards.

    There is no way that I would attempt to cross a bridge designed by you using evolutionary principles. I am not into chance plus time, thank you very much.

    And yet you trust modern medicine? Modern biological study (from whence these medicines originate) is entirely based on evolutionary theory. Works pretty damn well, wouldn’t you say? ;D

  120. david skinner 20 May 2009, 6:50pm

    Tell me how does a Pumpkin head evolve into a Pie face? Did this happen over millions of years or in the twinkling of eye? Will the Pie face evolve back into a Pumpkin Head or will it in fact completely re- invent itself into a super being: The omniscient, omnipresent and omnipotent Pink Pie face? I have never actually seen one though I have imagined its awful stench and slimy touch. But I have seen its adherents and worshippers at the London Pride, be-plumed and be- sequined, sweating, strutting and cavorting in adoration. But this is no scientific proof that it exists, only that its adherents are completely deluded. Enough

  121. David Skinner wrote
    “Well ,well, I think the last five entries only go show how infectious the virus evolutionary humanism is with filling people with bile and bigotry -even without having a read word of Hegel or Marx. That certainly is powerful stuff!!”

    THE CONTRADICTION

    David Skinner wrote
    “I have never read Hegel or Marx and your quotes and comment, to my mind, demonstrate precisely what Francis Schaeffer says in “The God who is There,”

    . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

    David Skinner
    So when you cannot argue . . . You plea ignorance

    How convenient!!!

  122. Evolution: The mutations are random, the selection process is cumulative. And organisms inheriting those mutations that are best adapted to their environment are the ones that are more likely to: get more food, find a mate, be more fertile, live longer and pass their DNA on than others.

    It’s simple mr skinner.

    what is more likely? That all the world’s biologists, geologists, archeologists, historians, chemists, physicists, cosmologists, thermodynamicists and respectable theologians, Nobel Prizewinners, and National Academies are all wrong. Catastrophically, appallingly, devastatingly wrong.

    Or perhaps science is beyond david’s tiny brain?

    Judging by the way Skinner talks so ignorantly about evolution being ‘blind chance’, I think, the latter.

    You talk about being able to read the captain’s compass and chart. Do you have any means of knowing they are correct?

    You have the biggest problem, of explaining not only how the whole cosmos and everything in it was created ex-nihilo. You have to explain how creation’s inventor, which must by definition be far more complex that creation itself, came into existence, also out of nothing. Until you can say how you know god exists and how you know its mind, then you have no place in any argument.

    Evolution tells us that complex beings come into existence late in the universe, not early on.

  123. My god, Skinner is so repetitively dull. Same old tried crap. We know you read the bible, you don’t seem to know any thing else!

    Just once I’d like some religious nut to come in here who has some semblance of intellect and wit, rather than these insipid wretches like Dull David.

    Chance would be a fine thing.

  124. Will . . . we should be so lucky

  125. Is he home-schooled? ex-drug addict?

    ANyway, pumpkin pie is on form. well done. keep up the good work.

  126. Ciaran McMahon 21 May 2009, 6:49am

    Adrian, yeah, he has some learning difficulties to say the least. In ability to answer a direct question…. not smart enough I assume. He prefers to go for the pompous, yet stupid, approach of thinking that he’s observing us for the better understanding of “homophiles”. What a muppet!

    Like all of them, they can only spout tired phrases in response to logical argument. He as much told Will not to talk reason with him, because he doesn’t understand it, and that anything based on science appeared by chance…. Chance! I ask you. How’s that for the advertisement and avocation of supreme idiocy, eh?

    And what amazes me even more, its always these dumb f*cks, like Skinner, who think they understand the mind of god. Granted, their version of god is a childish and spiteful deity, who takes pleasure on “smiting” random mutts, but its arrogance bordering on psychosis to assume you think you know what god likes/dislikes.

    I think Will summed it up beautifully when he said “Selective science, its called. The inability to accept what is proven, based on the non-understanding of the proof”.

    Not a truer word spoken.

  127. Yep, true Ciaran. and well done Will too. You have to be vigilant, otherwise the winning argument goes to the person who is the most fanatical, and has most time on his hands.

    It’s a shame because people who have valid, RELEVANT points to make, get drowned out (the Canterbury thread for instance) in the inevitable salvo’s that get fired in either direction, every time such a person posts.

    It’s probably the case that such people simply rush off to sites like onenewsnow and Answers in Genesis, to find out what to think. And dump it all on here. This was shown when skinner decided to list a whole number of sexual fetishes which he claimed would have been ‘protected’ (including child abuse) if hate crimes legislation were passed in america. Nonsense of course.

    Anyway, anyone who still doubts Evolution, can get the podcast of In Our Time this evening on radio 4; they are discussing the evolution of the whale….

  128. AdrianT wrote (In relation to David Skinner)

    “Is he home-schooled? ex-drug addict?”

    . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

    In my view

    *Addict and
    *Drug pusher

    His drug of choice – LJC (Lord Jesus Christ)
    As a pusher – Look at how we have been swept up in his addiction.

  129. John K – There is a difference between listening to a pusher’s sales pitch and making a purchase. Like you I’m just looking, not buying.
    Regretably in this instance, ‘just saying no’ seems to fall on deaf ears, and there’s no front door to slam.

  130. Flapjack . . . exactly!!! . . . well said

    Persaonlly, I would like to get back to addressing the BNP on this thread.

    Thread 53 – Cllr Julian Leppert BNP
    “Lots of anti-BNP comments on here, but consider this folks: One way or another, Britain is going to change radically over the next few decades. By 2030 or so, Downing Street will be occupied by somebody like Nick Griffin, or somebody like Abu Hamza. If its the former, life for British gay people will be much the same as now. If its the latter… good luck!”

    When we did address him with our comments

    No response from the BNP Cllr!!!

    So as well all new any way the BNP do not or will not be supporting gay rights?

    Or shall we e-mail the BNP office for further clarification

  131. Pumpkin Pie 21 May 2009, 2:02pm

    I enjoy baiting covert bigots into revealing their true natures, so I was thinking of sending an email to the BNP asking if hormone replacement therapy and gender reassignment surgery should be freely available to transsexuals, funded by the NHS.

    Self-titled “champions of the people” that they are, free health care is very important to them, but somehow, I don’t see them “wasting” taxpayer cash on treating “deviants”. Their site and manifesto avoid mentioning trans people, but I’d wager that they regard them in the same way as they regard the rest of the LGBT group.

    See, the great thing about asking them this sort of question is that it’ll show them up as both bigots and dullards. Transsexuality is recognised by all the leading psychiatric associations, so by refusing to help transsexuals, the BNP will not only show themselves to be hateful, but also anti-science, which means their arguments will carry about as much weight as those of a religious fundamentalist! :D

  132. Pumpkin Pie . . . with regards enquires as to the BNP’s policy on Transeuxals.

    Excellent idea!

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