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Poll finds zero tolerance for homosexuality among UK Muslims

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  1. My boyfriend IS muslim, which occasionally creates a large amount of cognative dissonance.
    When we first started dating I was under the impression he was a lapsed believer, but now he’s back to being a regular mosque goer! I think it’s a bit easier that he comes from Malaysia, where the tradition isn’t quite so strict as the Middle east.
    What can I say, I still love him, in spite of our religious differences.

  2. Wao, did anybody follow those statistics?

  3. Simon Murphy 7 May 2009, 11:38am

    I’m sure that not ALL muslims are backward bigots but the data that reappears over and over again is that the muslim cult is a hate-filled, bigoted, stupid cult with prehistorically backward opinions about gay rights; women’s rights etc.

    What this survey says to me is that whenever muslims complain about islamophobia then they need to be asked why islamophobia should be a concern for anyone when muslim homophobia is so virulent. It is utterly unacceptable for a minority population to whine about discrimination while they themselves whole-heartedly engage in discrimination.

  4. Muslims are the greatest threat to world peace. Sorry, if I offend but Muslims offend me! Not into women covered all up in teatowels! That offends me! Dont want to sit on public transport with Muslims reading THAT BOOK OF HATE AND DISCRIMINATION! If we want our SECULAR WORLD of FREEDOMS to continue then start the battle against Muslims and Christian Fundamenatlists.One simple sentence should be told to Muslims, mind your own fucking business or Mecca will be flattened! No tolerance for these monsters because they will cut our throats as soon as they get a chance! Do gooders wake up! Long live a world without religions. Individual freedoms now!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  5. I agree there are moderates and fanatics in all religions

    An observation
    . . . but who was it recently who called for the death of homosexuals . . . justified under a medieval style law if set up in this country.

    Islamphobia . . . not that difficult to understand why people feel a tad phobic, but is the real issue here not religion but FUNDAMENTALISM

  6. I came round the end of an aisle in my local Sainsbury’s and was suddenly confronted with 2 muslim couples all in the full garb, the men and the women respectively; the men, in long white, flowing, full-length shirts and a ‘cheeky’ little white, lacey, number on the head (…I want one!!); full niqab for the women, their glasses perched on the ouside of the material covering their faces. (…and such lovely, come-hither eyes!!).

    I uttered a short ‘Ohh..!’ a bit startled like, and left it at that; the ladies giggled a bit.
    So a bit later, I caught up with the party in the jam department and got into the giggly spirit of the previous encounter and thought I’d give THEM a show and a wee bit of a frisson too; why not…?

    I then started to exaggeratedly mince along the shelves, a la Dick Emery (Mandy), in their full view…very naughty of me, I know, (Sorrow! Sorrow! in the deep fundamold..! …with thanks to PROF. S.UNWIN)

    The women said nowt but the men just glowered at me and muttered in their own language, very stern of face, pointy, likkle black beards chuntering away 20 to the dozen…eyes blazin’ a-go-go..!

    I looked decidedly odd camping it up, I agree, since I look like a lorry driver, another Geoff Capes, maybe.

    Nothing was said, perhaps because I look a right ruffy-tuffy but I thought, “Welcome to anything-goes-Britain, matey!”.

    And that is what it is all about.
    You do what you want; I’ll do the same…and as long as it is all within the law….and hurts no-one…eh?

    I heard something about all this on the radio this morning and a rather ‘secular-in-outlook’ French Muslim there was saying that the Muslims in France are from Africa, in the main, and are Muslims of convenience. He was suggesting that they had integrated better there, in France, because no outward shows of religious difference are permitted. In France there is better integration because the freedom of expression is curtailed.

    Here in Britain, our Muslim sector is mainly from the Indian sub-continent; they are free to wear what they choose, as are Christians and Jews, but that here, for our Muslims, their integration is rather poorer.
    In France, the speaker said, French Muslims see themselves as French first,and Muslims after that.
    The reverse is true, to some extent, here in the U.K.

    Restriction has brought integration there.
    Non-restriction here has only served to defeat that objective, to some extent.


  7. ….Maybe time to go down the French road, eh..?
    I have also been of that opinion.

    ……….And keep your religions behind your own front door…

    Just a thought..!
    Keith (again, sorry!)

  8. Re Keith LOL! Absolute class would love to have seen that :)

  9. Wow……
    This page is gonna generate SOME…..!!! paper…!
    I am openin’ a book on how many comments it’ll reach…
    I bet it’s 200+..

    (me again)

  10. vulpus_rex 7 May 2009, 12:29pm

    Benton – whilst I agree that the muslim stance on homosexuality is unacceptable, I’m not sure that threatening to nuke Mecca is the best way of getting them to change their minds.

  11. Brenton has got it about right here. If we don’t stand up to this stone-aged cult called Islam they will take over the world. They can believe whatever they like, as long as they are firmly told that we shall not let them oppress us. We can then tolerate their beliefs (however stupid), and we can be free to criticise their religion and laugh at their stupid clothes.

  12. Male Muslims in largely Muslim countries are frequently in search of sex with men. I have seen a lot of it. The reason is, as a young, gay Turk said to me in Turkey last year, that women are not available as they are expected to be virgins when they marry. Young men have no sexual outlet other than with other men. However, homosexuality is an anathema for the religious authorities and this fact underlines the nature of Islam which is an evil, primitive religion.

  13. I agree Vulpus_rex . . . the stance some Muslim take with regards homosexulality is unacceptable!!!

    Unacceptable in the 21st century
    Unaccpetable in many countries around the world
    Unaccpetable in the UK

  14. And a very tiny, tiny minority of them are eager to make a point blowing themselves into pieces… along with as much British they can. The problem is that “tiny” is big when you are speaking of millions. I think that for a long period of time you allowed everybody to be whatever they liked to be as long as they worked hard or whatever reasons you had to make Britain a melting pot. Now sip the very hot soup.

  15. Neville – from what my boyfriend tells me there’s a large amount of hypocracy regarding gay rights and attitudes within Islam.
    He tells me that in certain middle eastern Islamic sects being gay is universally frowned on, but if you’re the active rather than the passive gay man in a sexual encounter you’re not classed as gay because you’ve adopted the “male” role.
    Yeah, I’d like to see them explain that one down the sauna. And I always thought denial was a river running through Egypt!

  16. Jean-Paul 7 May 2009, 1:13pm


    ‘…denial was a river running through Egypt!’ Love it! Just love it! I won’t be around for a few hours, but I’ll catch up to this thread later.

  17. Funny I have no tolerance to Muslims. I know they are not all the same. There were nice nazis’ that didn’t believe in what they were doing.

  18. I dont appreciate the scare monogering that seems to be going on on this site lately. It makes it sound that ALL muslims hate gays – they dont. Shame they didn’t interview my mate who has loads of lesbian friends & flirts with them outragously!!

  19. Religion is a mind virus. These people can’t help it. Time we started standing up for enlightenment values against the growing tide of ignorance and irrationalism.

  20. p.s. at the risk of being labelled a BNP sympathiser, if hardline muslims don’t like the generally liberal flavour of British values, why don’t they go and live in Iran or Saudi Arabia?

  21. Robert, ex-pat Brit 7 May 2009, 2:39pm

    France, unlike the UK, has no official state religion even though catholicism is the overwhelming “cult”. It has always had a freer attitude towards sexuality and not so hungup about it. If a married French president has an affair, he’s not ridiculed or hounded in the press as a British counterpart would be. Contrast Francois Mitterand and his mistress that barely raised an eyebrow in France, something we would never see in the UK, we’re far too hypocritical and hungup about sex. Plus, there isn’t a rigid class structure in France as there is in the UK and a lot of Brits in general tend to be very xenophobic. UK Muslims on the other hand are enabled by ultra conservative thinking in the C of E, RC cults and right wing evangelical groups. If you remember, Rowan Williams favourable comments on Sharia law only empowered them. Its interesting to note that British home grown Muslims have been implicated in terrorist attacks (London Underground bombing comes to mind) while in France they haven’t in spite of the recent riots in Paris. The United States is really the only country where they have fully integrated and have not produced any “home grown” islamic terrorists. Ironic when you consider it was the US that started an illegal war in Iraq. I don’t see the attitude among UK muslims changing that much not when you have a homophobic state cult (C of E) exerting some influence in the way the undemocratic House of Lords votes on social issues either.

  22. Simon Murphy 7 May 2009, 3:06pm

    #17: Charlene: You say:

    “I dont appreciate the scare monogering that seems to be going on on this site lately. It makes it sound that ALL muslims hate gays – they dont. ”

    I’m sorry to diagree with you but have you actually read the article.

    It states:

    “The poll, part of the the Gallup Coexist Index 2009, found that not one of the 1,001 British Muslims interviewed believed homosexual acts were morally acceptable.”

    How is it scaremongering to be hyper critical of a moronic cult which displays a universal hatred towards us.

  23. Har Davids 7 May 2009, 3:09pm

    Apart from my Muslim boy-friend, I happen to know some other gay Muslims, and almost all of them live double lives, while some of them are so obviously gay, that even their grannies know. But as long as they don’t come out, it’s ok, never mind them being unhappy; all that counts is their damn ‘honour’. There’s a lot of pressure on them to conform to ‘their’ culture and religion, while their straight relatives don’t live their lives according to the rules either. Some of them have even been threatened by their own brothers and had to leave the country. My own boy-friend is in the same bind; lying all the time about his whereabouts, his friends, his interests and his wants and needs and I hate it!! I live my life the way I want it, harming nobody, and if my relatives mind the can take a hike, but they don’t, so that makes it easy for me.

  24. Simon Murphy 7 May 2009, 3:12pm

    #5: John K – you say:

    “Islamphobia . . . not that difficult to understand why people feel a tad phobic, but is the real issue here not religion but FUNDAMENTALISM”

    Well the results of this survey indicate that 100% of the victims of the islamic cult are fundamentalists.

    I find it truly shocking and terrifying that NOT A SINGLE person out of a sample of 1001 British muslims found homosexuality morally acceptable.

    The muslim cult is a threat to us all. I think the French have the right idea when it comes to the blanket banning of religious expression in public.

  25. vulpus_rex 7 May 2009, 3:23pm

    I think there is something wrong with this survey.

    I’m no apologist for Islam but I’ve just asked my muslim colleague, who also asked his wife, what he thinks and they say it’s got to be rubbish and certainly not representative of their particular community.

    Either it has been worded with a leading question or they have been very selective in the geographical area of the UK in which it was carried out.

    Maybe not a scientific response but I can’t help feeling this is mischief making.

  26. Har Davids – I totally empathise with that, although family honour isn’t quite such a life and death deal to my muslim boyfriend’s family. Nonetheless, it does mean that to them I’m his “flatmate”. On the plus side his siblings have provided a lot of grandkids, so that takes the pressure off, and no-one’s asked him about whether he’s found the right girl to marry recently.
    That said, it does occasionally get under my skin that after years spent in the closet myself, just as I’ve come to fully accept my identity and out myself to my friends and family I’m burdened with going through the same charade for the benefit of everyone in his family and social circle. It reminds me of that Velvet Underground lyric “…you’re still doing things that I gave up years ago!”
    But then being brought up in a homophobic environment is one thing we have in common, so I can’t really judge.

  27. If liberal Islam exists could you show me where?

    I would love to chat with the following:
    A gay Imam
    A female Imam
    A Imam who thinks Israel has a right to exist

  28. Har Davids and Flapjack: you want to be careful with your other halves’ respective families if they show fundamentalist attitudes. I know love knows no bounds, and all that, but there have been many cases of the relatives of gay muslims killing those they feel have “preyed” on their innocent family members.

    The rise of Islam in the West is extremely concerning for me. Coupled with the inability of our government to instil social cohesion, it is just a recipe for disaster at some point. Forget July 7th, we have much worse on the horizon.

  29. With 60 years experience and survey knowledge . . . Gallup is a very well established reputable research company.

    Is true know one is free bias not even scientists . . . I am glad some one has mentioned the N**z word.

  30. Simon – I am torn I really am, between condeming the lot of them myself, but I know many who are just not like this. I would love to know the ages of the muslims polled as that would make a huge difference.

    What about the gay muslims? Where do they turn when the gay community are tarring them all with the same brush!!


    Yes, denial IS a river flowing through Egypt..and did you know that the OMO RIVER flows right through ETHIOPIA…?
    You couldn’t make it up..!

    & JOHN K
    I am not sure about your little contribuzione…?
    I don’t suppose there will be too many lady-Imams or that there will be too many Imams who think that Israel has a right to exist but I’d bet a pound to a pinch o’shit that there will be more than religious devotions goin’ round the bike sheds at the back of them mosques after prayers…AND 5 TIMES A DAY, lucky buggers..!
    Kafflicks only go to mass on Sundays or should that be come…??!


  32. It would be interesting to know how this study was conducted. How were the interviewees selected? Were the interviewed or did they fill out a questionnaire anonymously? These factors can affect the results enormously.

    I feel disgust at the Koranic Cult and the violence that has predictably – inevitably – followed in its wake, but I can’t help thinking that British involvement with Bush’s illegal invasion of Iraq has just played into the hands of the sickest, most reactionary elements within the Muslim population in the UK. My guess is that he Iraq War has probably helped recruit more ‘jihadis’ worldwide than the crazy Imams & mad Mullahs ever could have hoped for before.

    The figures, otherwise, would probably have been similar to the European ones.

  33. Well you know what I have zero tolerance for Women being locked in their homes, forced to cover themselves from head to foot and denied education and some basic rights. I do not want third world antiquated opinions taking hold in the UK. Clearly people living in ghettos know know different. Honestly some times I wonder why people come to the UK if they are going to act and behave exactly the same way as if they lived in Tehran.

  34. Funny, I have no tolerance of them…

  35. . . . are there any Female Imams? . . any where in the world?

    Never heard of one in the UK!
    If this is the case there might be a FUNDEMANTAL reason for this.

    . . . I think the word begins with M and ends in y


  36. Sister Mary Clarence 7 May 2009, 6:32pm

    Rob, I had a look through the survey itself rather than the Executive summary and couldn’t see details of the methodology there. As you say this may have had an impact of the results, although you would assume that the survey would have been conducterd in the same way across all countries and therefore if people were not prepared to speak openly for whatever reason, it would have been mirrored accross the entire sample.

    I do find it odd (as well as worrying) that they couldn’t find a single person who has the least bit gay friendly though, and this instinctively suggests that methodology may have been a factor, but maybe it was somethiong else.

    This article has only focussed on the homo-view bit, but looking at a lot of the other data, there are some very distinct differences between UK Muslims and those in Germany and France. The data shows across the board a generally more conversative view from the British public as a whole and this is even further emphasised in the UK Muslim sub-set.

    As has been said, all very worrying

  37. The survey shows one of the paradoxes of liberalism – if you allow groups to freely express themselves and do not challenge unsavoury attitudes, then you run the risk of increasing homophobia. By fostering multiculturalism rather than integration, we have allowed Muslims to exist in a bubble, so it is hardly surprising that they have different attitudes to many liberal westerners.

    In my opinion we have become so sensitive to respecting people’s ethnicity and religion that we have ignored issues of gender and sexuality. We have stored up trouble for ourselves and done no favours to Muslim women and gay Muslims. The government needs to send out stronger messages that homophobia is not tolerated – and that you can’t use religion as a “get-out” card. Respect is a two-way street.

  38. If someone says they have “zero tolerance” towards someone’s beliefs – is that for or against freedom of speech/religion? Doest that mean they aren’t open minded or liberal?

    And does that mean the “other side” would view them as small minded bigots too?

  39. I think that the caution and concern for this study expressed in a number of threads so far is wise and warranted.

    We can find out how many people were interviewed, how they were selected, and whether or not the interviewees were sampled using questionnaire or by interview. If they were interviewed we could ask was it a structured or semi-structured interview. We could ask how they analysed the data. If it was qualitative did they triangulate the data to avoid problems with reliability and validity. If the data was quantitative, did the statistical analysis really reveal a high level correlation of regression coefficient to warrant a high level causal relationship to support their claims

    Lets find out if Gallups study really stands up to the rigours of high level social science research which would warrant publication in an a academic Journal.

    Also, let’s not forget that some UK Muslims have been quite vocal about how they want homosexuals put to death. . . Personally I am more concerned with the latter than the former despite extensive knowledge and understanding of qualitative and quantitative research methodology.

  40. J Mathews 7 May 2009, 7:23pm

    I find Muslims morally unacceptable.

    Can we please wake up everyone, and stop being nice to these religious freaks. Islamic religious freaks hate democracy, freedom of thought and most especially gay people.

    Islam has no place in a democracy. It is barbaric, evil, manipulative, sexist, racist, xenophobic and homophobic. It is superstitious mumbo jumbo.

    Muslims hate gay people, and gay people should return the favour. Period.

  41. Hey we’re kidding ourselves if we think it’s only Muslims – I work next to a so call Christian Nigerian woman ( with British Citizenship) who thinks Jews deserved the Holocaust – gays should be stoned, no black people are ever gay and polygomys OK – and she’s a consultant on £130k a year. Hates all around us based on so called religious beliefs, ignorance and a need to feel superior to anything different. Muslims scare me but so do most people brainwashed into believing they need to hate because they feel that by following a set of made up medieval rules,in place to surpress the masses, it makes them special.

    Is it not just another form of gang culture.

  42. Thanks for that, allancsn. In my experience, Nigerian ‘Christians’ are the most vorciforous gay-haters on yhr planet. One question, though, why has nobody blown thw whistle on this hateful woman tou work with?

  43. Well This just tells us what most of us already thought that the vast majority of muslims are against all forms of homosexuality

    Well I have Zero tolerance of Muslims they are the main source of all hate in this world

    I am affraid they live in Britain so they will just have to abide by our laws instead of their own

  44. The paranoia and prejudice in some of these comments is embarrassing and disgraceful.

    Here’s a fun fact: many (if not most) of British Muslims are South Asian. South Asian countries, including Pakistan, India, and Bangladesh, all have laws against homosexuality.

    But you know what? These anti-sodomy laws were imposed BY THE FRIGGIN’ BRITISH during the colonial period! And why did Britain have such a law against sodomy (or “buggery” as it was called)? King Henry VIII enacted such a law to take away powers from the Catholic Church’s ecclesiastical courts. The anti-buggery law was also used to persecute Catholic priests, who were accused of such “deviant” sexual practices. Variants of such anti-sodomy laws were then enacted across the British empire.

    Our real enemy is not Muslims but IGNORANCE. The fact is that nobody understands their own history. The Islamophobic British don’t understand their own history when they blame Muslims or Islam for homophobia. The homophobic Muslims don’t understand their own history when they insist homosexuality is a “Western” problem. It’s pretty sad, really.

    By the way, on the comment that Britain should use France’s anti-religious integration approach: keep in mind that non-Muslim French are much less homophobic and more socially liberal than the non-Muslim British. The fact that French Muslims are more socially liberal than British Muslims is probably a reflection of the fact that French society is more socially liberal than British society. Both Britain and France still have HUGE gaps in social morals between Muslims and non-Muslims.
    Also, Muslims in the United States are better integrated than in European countries, and we don’t ban religious symbols in public places.

  45. Neville wrote (Comment 11): “Male Muslims in largely Muslim countries are frequently in search of sex with men.” Indeed, Neville. I’ve lived in Muslim countries and been sought out by lots of Muslim men. The trouble is after you sucked them off or let them fuck you, they then treat you like you are disgusting piece of infidel shit for having done it! So, yes, they just use available gay “white-meat”. Nevertheless, it’s arrant hypocrisy.

    Charlene wrote (Comment 17): “ALL muslims hate gays – they don’t.” OK, Charlene, not ALL Muslims hate gays and lesbians. But HAVING LIVED AND WORKED IN ISLAMIC COUNTRIES FOR A CONSIDERABLE NUMBERO OF YEARS, I am telling you that 99.5% of Muslims find homosexuality despicable. They answer a prayer-call FIVE TIMES A DAY which reminds them that it is so.

    Vulpus_Rex wrote (Comment 24): “I’m no apologist for Islam but I’ve just asked my muslim colleague, who also asked his wife, what he thinks and they say it’s got to be rubbish”. Vulpus, you “confronting” your workmate on this question and him coming back to you with what his wife said does not approach the rigour of an anonymous professionally-conducted poll. Psychology 101: never believe that what people tell you is the truth when you ask them a question directly.

    J Matthews wrote (Comment 39): “Can we please wake up everyone, and stop being nice to these religious freaks. Islamic religious freaks hate democracy, freedom of thought and most especially gay people.” J Matthews, you’re right. I think you will find it interesting to learn that when I returned from my years living and working amongst Muslims in Islamic countries, I simply could not say a word against Muslims to my right-on liberal friends here in Britain. They told me I was being racist! They were FRIGHTENED to be seen as not bending over backwards for everybody from every country on the face of the bloody planet! Then The Twin Towers fell to bits and bombings occurred in London and elsewhere with thousands being killed all round and slowly, very slowly, it became possible in Britain to suggest that we need to be wary of Muslims. We have a long way to go yet. Muslim schools must be banned (all faith schools must be banned). And the wearing of any exhibitionistic religious garb in public by members of any religious group must be banned too. These people must be FORCED to moderate and integrate . . . or they will continue to live in conformity with the dictates of The Koran and their imams. To end: we had a very wise old gentleman and his wife here to lunch today and as I was showing them a piece of art I picked up in The Middle East many years ago, he shared his reflection that a vast religious group that has at all times banned and refused any form of representational art, not just pictures of people, has NO HISTORICAL VISUAL MEMORY. A Muslim cannot know his/her past centuries in the way we do. All they have is their present, their frightful book, and their geometric designs.

    Allancsn wrote (Comment 40): “I work next to a so-called Christian Nigerian woman (with British Citizenship) who thinks Jews deserved the Holocaust – gays should be stoned, no black people are ever gay and polygamy’s OK”. Yes, Allancsn, you’re right: Muslims are not the only threat – a sizeable minority of Christians are extremely dangerous too.

  46. Eddy

    Bravo . . . tour de force . . . a disturbing reality check

    Which highlights the other disturbing question . . . why do liberals sleep so heavily.

  47. vulpus_rex 7 May 2009, 9:42pm

    I have no idea who “coexist” are but it seems to me that they specifically asked for gallup to make sure they were polling the Taliban section of the UK’s muslim community.

    To accept the prima facie conclusions of this poll you would have to also conclude that 100% of the muslim population of the UK are unreasonable, swivel-eyed biggots.

    They are not.

    Some of the comments on here seem more reminescent of the BNP and are frankly disgraceful.

  48. Vulpus_Rex wrote (Comment 46): “To accept the prima facie conclusions of this poll you would have to also conclude that 100% of the muslim population of the UK are unreasonable, swivel-eyed biggots.”

    Vulpy, you have a lot of waking up to do, matey. You appear to have no first-hand understanding of Islam. Muslims do not believe they are bigots, of course. They believe they are the finest religious group on the face of this planet. They also believe they are highly reasonable and intelligent people. And needless to say, probably no Muslim is, as you put it, “swivel-eyed”.

  49. vulpus_rex wrote.
    “I have no idea who “coexist” are but it seems to me that they specifically asked for gallup to make sure they were polling the Taliban section of the UK’s muslim community.”

    May be the Taliban section of the UK Muslim community is tiny . . . holding hands with you boyfriend outside any Mosque or in any predominately Muslim community in the UK, hopefully will provide the qualitative research evidence that Gallup are biased BNP sympathises. . .

  50. ARIANNE.

    Quite the little historian, aren’t we?

    Thanks you so much!

    I guess you are from the U.S.A.?…since you say ‘we’…

    “Muslims in the United States are better integrated than in European countries, and we don’t ban religious symbols in public places.”

    No, you do not ban religious symbols; you just blow the buggers up..!

    Well, now, “hev a narse day, y’arl!”

  51. Keith very cutting . . . will they be telling us next that their Muslims are so well integrated they even have a Gay friendly “Nation of Islam movement” . . . curious how its leader is banned from entering this country . . .

  52. Well I’m sure glad we have some tolerant Muslims in Germany but it isn’t enough yet. More work is needed for sure. Kudos to the 19% in Germany, now please go out to the Mosques and educate other members of yor faith just as we 68% of non Muslim Germans have to educate the other 32%.

  53. It’s ironic that the islamic world condemns what consenting adults do in private yet they revere their prophet mohammed who had sex with his 9 year old wife when he was 54 as a shining example of how to live your life for all eternity.

    Ah, we are not allowed to impose 21st century moral values on 7th century Arabia, screech the apologists. In which case, why the hell should we tolerate them trying to impose the morality of 7th century Arabia on 21st century Britain?

  54. Assuming the results of this poll are correct (even if they’re not – and I’ve had a Muslim boyfriend, so I have my doubts), surely one of the things we should be considering is how to reach out and change some of those homophobic attitudes? Simply rating about Muslims or climbing into a Muslim-hate bunker are not going to work in changing beliefs. The fact that opinions about homosexuality are different elsewhere in the world among Muslim communities suggests that attitudes can be changed. We should be looking at how those attitudes are changed rather than quaking in fear or shaking our fists at the closest follower of Mohammed.

  55. Simon Murphy 8 May 2009, 12:27am

    No 43: Arianne, you say:
    “But you know what? These anti-sodomy laws were imposed BY THE FRIGGIN’ BRITISH during the colonial period!”

    True. And those anti-sodomy laws were imposed on Ireland too – the exact same laws. Ireland has not been at the forefront of the gay rights movement by any means but the laws have changed and nowadays it’s a fairly good place to be gay. It has changed in a way muslim former colonies haven’t. Don’t blame the “figgin’ British” for the backward behaviour of these countries. They have kept these laws because of cultural hatred of homosexuality. Not because of colonialism.

  56. Simon Murphy 8 May 2009, 12:35am

    No 53 Darrien. I agree that reaching out to muslims and changing attitudes is the best solution but the only way that will work is if muslim women and gay muslims take that responnsibility and start doing it. Perhaps they are but there is no evidence that they are having any effect on the cult’s way of thinking. It’s not appropriate to wait for the muslim cult to develop if it means that my freedom is endangered or compromised while we wait for them to develop some respect for other people. The opinion makers in islam (imams, politicians etc) need to be told quite clearly that they are expected to offer the same respect to other minorities as they expect for themselves. If they continue with their homophobia then they should be regarded in the same manner as the BNP.

  57. mohammed was a squallid pedophile who married joung girls. Muslims are unevolved apes from the third world. the kurAnal is the shittiest book ever. mosques are horrible buildings where those animals make plans for future terroristic attacks. saudi arabia is a piece of sandy crap and muslim women give blowjobs to camels. F_uck islam right in the eye! I am intolerant with those bastards. Kill them all.

  58. CJ
    I don’t think you care over much for Muslims, am I correct..?


  59. Jean-Paul 8 May 2009, 3:46am

    I must admit that I did not take the time to fully read every post on this thread, but I did skim most of them, and I must admit this issue has me slighly confused.

    In the first place, where I live in Eastern Canada there are no women wearing those unusual outfits, forgot what they’re called.

    Also, what muslims I do know are every bit, if not more, ordinary than I am.

    So, I’m going along with Charlene (17) on this one and there’s a reason for that.

    If you’ll bear with me for a moment, there appeared a story in PinkNews recently that went right over your heads. Maybe it’s because I enjoy foreign films, but I clicked onto it the moment I saw it.

    The article is dated April 28, it is entitled ‘Interview: Arabic filmmaker Maher Sabry’, and it is written by Omar Hassan.

    To put it briefly, the filmmaker speaks about his latest film’s inspiration, its public acceptance in Arabic countries, as well as the greater issue of LGBT rights in the Arab-speaking world.

    It is considered to be a groundbreaking film, it is presently traveling the festival circuits, and Sabry hopes to distribute it on DVD. The article also contains the website address where we can keep track of the film.

    I was surprised to see that no-one left a comment besides me, and I did get a reply from the author of the article, Omar Hassan.

    On the off-chance that you access this article, which can be found by typing in the words ‘Interview: Arabic filmmaker’ in the search box, you will slowly discover as the story unfolds that the filmmaker, Maher Sabry, has faced incredible odds in producing this film, that it has been well received in Arabic countries, but that it has taken every penny Sabrey could scrape together to finish the film.

    In regatds to the issue of this thread, I would strongly recommend this article.

    I will have more to say about this film later.

    In the meantime, I believe that the comments on this thread which agree that we are over-reacting to this ‘muslim threat’, such as Charlene who has the gift of saying things succinctly, are on the right track. Of course, that is debatable, and the little wheels in my brain are always ready to evolve and evolve and evolve…

  60. First: Islamphobia doesn’t exist – it is an expression invented by muslims in order to deflect critisism of that religion. Why don’t we ever hear about Christianphobia or Buddhismphobia??

    We have to limit the influx of muslims into the Western world – they are fascists.

    Organized religion IS POLITICS!!!

  61. Richard Farnos 8 May 2009, 8:59am

    What a vile racist article that we have somewhat come to expect from Pink News. It also beguiles the facts on two counts:

    Firstly thinking homosexuality is “immoral” does not mean that the person is “intolerant”- indeed the whole definition of tolerance is accepting things of which you don’t approve! Now if the Pink News has some evidence that Muslims are disproportionately involved in anti-gay activity or homophobic assaults, then this claim would have substance. However all research that has been undertaken by the Police into the backgrounds of perpetrators of homophobic hate crime finds no disparate activity due to religion or ethnicity in the UK. Ironically this would seem to suggest that Muslims are more tolerant not less!

    Secondly, as 32 per cent of Muslims don’t think that homosexuality is “immoral” the claim in the headline that there is “zero tolerance among UK Muslims” is clearly a generalisation or not to beat around the bush – a racist lie fitting of the BNP.

  62. JEAN-PAUL.
    (I QUOTE.)

    “In the first place, where I live in Eastern Canada there are no women wearing those unusual outfits, forgot what they’re called.”

    (Hi, where’ve you been hiding.?)

    Well… you poor sheltered little luv..!

    “No women wearing those unusual outfits”, indeed!!


    IT’S LIKE HALLOWE’EN (‘Trick or treat’.. to you!)

    YER EYES’D DROP OUT YER HEAD…(you bein’ so “sheltered” an’ all..!!)




    Londres! La plus grande pioche du monde..affreux, vraiment afffffffreux..!


  63. …and NO I am not racist..!

    I would not dare to be.

    How could I be, my forebears being immigrant Russian Orthodox Jews!
    It’s all this fundamentalism crap…this “politics” masking as religion as, JEAN-PAUL, you so rightly say.

    They can all come here as want; the world and his missus.

    There’s nothing wrong with the yellow peoples, for example…
    They keep themselves to themselves and cook for us in their lovely restaurants and take-aways..number 43 please, plenty of soy sauce!

    And as far as I know, Jews do not proselitise, either.

    It’s just these fundamentalists breathing hellfire and damnation; THEY are the ones we need to monitor with great care…Muslim fundies AND AND AND Christian fundies too.

    Anyone can come to these shores.
    They can worship snowflakes if that’s what their bag is.

    Just don’t shove it down MY throat; I do not want to know.

    Having been brought up fundamentalist Catholic, by nuns and priests is mind-warp enough in one lifetime ta! very much..!


  64. Everyone- PLEASE WATCH ‘FITNA’. It is shocking, but compelling. Try youtube.

  65. “British Muslims hold more conservative opinions”

    Gee, it took a survey to figure that one out!?

    But the cult of liberalism will never stand up to those particular views. The only religious bigots in their world are Christians. Everything else is always “more complicated”.

  66. Jean-Paul, re. your “Comment 58”, when you repeat what the film-maker of this Arabic film treating homosexuality has apparently stated, namely that the film “has been well received in Arabic countries”, you demonstrate what you have mentioned elsewhere: that you live in an isolated area of Canada and have little or not DIRECT knowledge of any Islamic country. I fear you also forget that Arabs are the finest and cleverest of hawkers and sellers, going right back to Ali Baba and The Forty Thieves, Babylon, and Ancient Egypt! How many dusty souks in that vast Islamic band from the West of Africa to Malaysia have you wandered, my friend? I’ve done dozens of ’em! I’ve been forcibly trapped in them by young Muslim men desperate for me to purchase their carpets, ceramics, and the like!

    Without doubt in every Arabic country there are homosexuals. Without doubt, too, none of them feel safe. None of them ARE safe! I understand that gay Egypians friends of mine (and bear in mind that of the countries dominated by Islam Egypt is still somewhat relaxed, despite the recent surge in Fundamentalism there too) are still languishing in a filthy Cairo jail after being arrested on a Nile boat last year just for having a party (yes, on the Nile and in the middle of Cairo city! Yes, this was in reported in Pink News but so many of us fail to try to keep all this information in our heads!). Anyway the point is, some of the oppressed homosexuals and lesbians in Muslim-dominated countries will of course receive such a film well and pin all their hopes on it, but there is absolutely no way such a film could be toasted publicly in ANY Arabic country. In most Arab countries it would be absolutely impossible to show it.

    If you have time on your hands, Jean-Paul, and a bit of spare dosh, why not fly over to any Islamic country you like, book yourself into a 3-star all-Arab hotel away from tourist centres (keep away from Western hotels and Western expats) and just spend five days observing the actual life, from dawn till bed-time. You should soon discover the reality of Muslim life.

    Jean-Paul, I applaud your efforts to play the loving Father Abbot who speaks in soft and reasonable tones and forever seeks to stretch out his arms and bring the members of his community together in love and peace . . . but this is NOT a Thomas-fucking-Merton Cistercian monastery, luvee. Here we’re about plain-speaking and talking the truth about real issues.

    P.S. By the way, when you hit your Arab hotel you’ll find hospitality so impoverished that it is highly unlikely you’ll even find your beloved ginger ale! You’ll likely find Pepsi and 7-UP as America has saturated the Islamic belt with both – given that soft-drinks and water are all that Muslims are permitted to drink beside tea and coffee. :-)

  67. Robert, ex-pat Brit (20):

    Synthesis… very interesting and informative.

    Keith (61):

    Let me be the first to agree with you.

    I am living a sheltered life here in Eastern Canada. The most controversial thing I have to confront is what shade of cream should I paint the front porch before the black flies come out. Is that wrong? It’s boring, but is it wrong?

    And yes, I believe I do have an idealistic image of London and the UK, and I do not believe that that is the correct way to view the world. Google Earth is great technology, but somebody somewhere is controlling what I am seeing, right?

    But if I had been living anywhere else, I could not have taken care of both my parents and burried them as far apart from one another as they wanted to be for the better part of their married life. Is that wrong?

    And who would have taken care of my younger sister who is mentally challenged and who is now 60 years old?

    Is that wrong?

    And it’s been so long since I’ve avoided the noise, the anonymity and the stinking smog of large Canadian cities that I could only imagine how miserable real life could be for all of you by reading Charles Dickens or D.H. Lawrence’s ‘Sons and Lovers’.

    And where could I find a better health system to check me up regularly since cancer cells were found in my bone marrow two years ago? Is that wrong?

    And who would have taken care of my partner when he went through three (3) burn-outs? When he wanted to kill his boss and then kill himself with carbon monocide?

    Is that all wrong? Is my life really more rosey than yours?

    I love to read; I am more of an academic than an activist, except that I do express my concern for the food and water shortages in the world, the climate change crisis, the extinction of plants and animals that have not even been discovered yet in South America, the victims of floods and earthquakes, of AIDS and of leprosy and things like that. Is that wrong?

    And yes I am still struggling every day with the endoctrination I received from the RCC. And with the homophobia which is carefully concealed behind the mask of civility and rhetoric, even in this neck of the woods.

    Rather than go on and on, let’s make a pact like two mature persons. You decide what’s right and wrong for you, and I’ll decide what’s right and wrong for me, OK? Is that wrong? Let me just say that I chose to live by the Golden Rule, I do not promote my beliefs and I have just spoken to you the way I would like you to speak to me. Have I offended you?

    Always a pleasure to read your posts, although I must admit that I am disappointed that nobody has said a word about my post 58 about the Arabic filmmaker, Maher Sabry, who has a groudbreaking insight to share with us about LGBT persons living in Arabic countries and that could shed some light on the confusing issue of this thread.

  68. Richard Farnos wrote (Comment 60): ’32 per cent of Muslims don’t think that homosexuality is “immoral”‘

    Richard Farnos, where the hell did you get that figure from, matey?

    I suggest you carefully read Riazat Butt’s article in yesterday’s “Guardian” newspaper, (and titled “Muslims in Britain have zero tolerance of homosexuality, says poll”)


    Riazat Butt reports:
    “The most dramatic contrast was found in attitudes towards homosexuality. None of the 500 British Muslims interviewed believed that homosexual acts were morally acceptable.”

    It is YOU who has made statements without foundation, Mr. Farnos. To be very very fearful of the spreading worldwide efforts of Islam is in no way to be paranoid, neurotic, racist, or oppressive of all religions. Islam is a sterilizing killing world-influence, “killing” mainly in the sense that it utterly confines and strait-jackets the joys of being alive.


    Keith, here you speak pure truth.

    Here’s a funny story for ya.

    I got back from the Middle East. White friend still out there is partial to Arab cock. (He admits it was all those holy biblical pictures thrust at him by nuns and church when he was a child, all that amber skin, The Three Kings and the attendant shepherds, Arabs all, etc.) Anyway, this white friend writes to me and tells me that this Arab guy (rich as hell) is coming to the UK and he would like us to meet. Well, after years out there in Islamic countries and having got to well and truly know “The Arab Mind” (and, yes, there are enlightening books with this very title) the last thing I wanted to do was traipse across town to meet some Arab male, cock or no cock! Anyway we meet in some swanky hotel bar near where he is staying . . . in, guess where, KENSINGTON! He reclines there, smoking cigarette after cigarette and knocking back gin after gin, and tells me how much he loves beautiful England. However, it transpires that for him “England” actually means that swanky strip that encompasses Kensington, Chelsea, Westminster, and The City, plus a swift occasional ride down into Hampshire to some pretty chocolate-box English village where his family keep a grand pile behind electric gates!

    He had absolutely no idea of the down-at-heel Islamic ghettoes of all Britain’s major cities, where many of the women go round sacked head to toe in black and their hyper-religious men stride the streets in ankle-length white skirts, uncontrolled beards, and skull-caps! HE HAD NO IDEA OF THIS REALITY AT ALL.

    Of course, while film and TV production companies continue to pump out lavish chocolate-box productions of olde-E.M.Forster-Englande most of the entire bloody world will continue to have little idea of the reality in most British cities today either.


    Est-ce j’ai upsette (sorry can’t find the squiggly bit for the ‘e’) … vous..?
    I was only inviting you…!
    Just paintin’ a piccy of the bleeding place, love it tho’ I do..!
    I’d just like for you to come shoppping with me and suddenly be confrontato with muslim ladies swathed up to the max just as you turn right into the jam section of the superm’kt….it’s like they changed the date for ‘trick or treat.’ BOOOO..!
    You sound to have had a bad time of it.
    We all have bad times; in my case, 9 years in Alicante looking after my mum with Alzheimer’s, watching her slowly ‘disappear’ ..and who had not the vaguest clue who I was (“who are YOU..? … do I know YOU…?) at the end; nor of where she was; nor of what time of the day or night it was..nor nowt.
    I am only just getting over it and that was 6 years ago that I lost her.
    Be that as it may…I critcise thee not..but I’d love to take you on a whistle stop of the U.K. cities I mentioned, if for no other reason than that the curries are OUT OF THIS WORLD..
    We have an area in Rusholme in Manchester called CURRY MILE…a street with nothing but Indian, Pakistani, Bangladeshi…and all the other nations’ cuisines and their clothes shops and jewellery shops…FABULOUS..!
    And at night…lit up like DISNEYLAND…neon everywhere..
    We also have in the city centre of MANCHESTER, as well as a gay ‘village’, a CHINA TOWN which speaks for itself…and the food, there…! Chinese, Japanese, Thai…YUMM MEEEEE..!

    So far from criticisin’ ya I is invitin’ ya…!

    Nobody’s life is any rosier than anybody else’s and we don’t find that out until … “walk a mile in … my shoes”, do we.

    How many girls would have changed places with Diana as she walked down the aisle with her father, Johnny Spencer, to marry her Charles.?
    How many would change places now with her..?


  71. People who want to show support against fanatics should visit – SIGN THE PETITION – and visit the website of Maryam Namazie – she runs the committee of ex-muslims and does sterling work for women’s rights. I had the pleasure of marching with her and about 500 others (muslim secularists as well as ex-muslims) to demonstrate against Sharia law on Womens Day last March. Funny how the media mostly ignored it, choosing to focus on 20 fanatics protesting in Luton. It makes me wonder if the media are colluding – moderate muslims protesting against their own doesn’t make interesting enough headlines. We should be encouraging and supporting such people. there will be a march in November, for children’s rights – and I expect to see some of you people coming along too.

    In the present cabinet, only Hazel Blears seems to talk with any sense at all. We have spent too long listening to the likes of the MCB, and assuming that the only people who speak for muslims are unelected ‘faith leaders’. This is an insult, and creating apartheid. The decision to turn a blind eye to Sharia tribunals is a disgrace – treason in fact. Stop this moral relativism!

  72. …let’s all save our breath to confront all these religious bigots to make sure that they are not allowed to spew forth unchallenged, be they muslim fundies,catholic fundies, Kirk fundies, the 7th Day loonies, the Mormons (or are they in the same ‘secure unit’..!).


  73. Fact: islam is a primitive fart!

    Q: do you like primitive farts?

    A: End of debate!

  74. Simon Murphy 8 May 2009, 12:28pm

    I think muslims (and christians and jews and hindus and sikhs) are only entitled to the same rights as they offer people who do not share their worldview. Any muslimn who regards homosexuality as immoral has no right to complain if their religion is regarded as immoral and disgusting.

    Interestingly why is it that across the ENTIRE muslim world (with the exception of Turkey) that homosexuality is punishable by death or imprisonment. It is a dangerous, facist evil cult that needs to be challenged every step of the way.

  75. AdrianT, good for you for publicizing that petition at

    Everyone aware of the advance of Islamic fundamentalism should sign it without hesitation.

  76. I live in leicester – I dont see women wearing the full head to toe thing that often. The young muslim girls only cover their hair – if at all!

  77. Simon Murphy, I almost always know before I read your comments that I will agree with them wholeheartedly. Thanks for posting. I hope we may meet for a pint sometime.

  78. Sister Mary Clarence 8 May 2009, 12:33pm

    Have just found out a bit more about the methodology of the survey from various websites, I would be extremely wary of any of the percentages quoted.

    What consideration was given to the likely distortion of results caused by people taking part in the interview face-to-face in a home setting (possibly in front of other family members)?

    Were the interviewers also Muslim, the logical choice of any fieldwork company looking to achieve the best strike rate? If so, again you introduce the possibility that respondents are not going to want to appear a bad Muslim.

    Has the data been weighted in any way to counter the distortion that clearly is going to be caused by choosing the least confidential method of interviewing on such a sensitive subject? The website provides no details

    How were the factors of any weighting matrix determined?

    Has the data been benchmarked against any similar polls to check the validity? If it has, I’m sure that they would find the results are markedly different from some other polls, as I have done.

    All in all, (in my opinion) the poll is shite, at best it can be used to benchmark differences in views across countries, which is probably does quite successfully, but many of the conclusions extrapolated by the press from the Executive summary are (again in my view) totally flawed.

    So maybe we should hold off on burning the homes down of all our Muslim neighbours just for now, things might not be quite as bad as the poll suggest.

  79. AnthonyfromAyrshire 8 May 2009, 12:34pm

    Today’s (Glasgow) Herald also ran an article on this story. However, it was presented in a very different light and had NO mention of the homophobia at all! Another example of the mainstream media ignoring LGBT issues, and I don’t know why, as we read the newspapers just like everyone else. You can read their version of this poll on their website, if you want.

  80. AnthonyfromAyrshire 8 May 2009, 12:36pm

    Disappointingly, The (Glasgow) Herald has also reported on this poll today. However, they make NO mention whatsoever of the homophobia shown by the people who were polled. It really annoys me that the “mainstream” media have once again failed to report LGBT issues, after all, we read the papers just like everyone else.

  81. Leon K Fox 8 May 2009, 12:40pm

    And they complain about being discrimated, how f—–g rich is that@?

  82. Some points;

    Firstly, I often hear the comment that most Muslims don’t hold such extreme views. Well, OK, why don’t they speak up????? The silence is absolutely deafening. In my book, silence IS consent.

    Secondly, Muslims come from many countries, and many races. Hating a religious view IS NOT RACISM.

    The thing about women and veils, is that the koran says, the women should hide their natural adornements. It is VERY vague. some say that means breast , thighs etc.. some say it means hair, some (mainly pathetic men) say it means everything – hence we get what the Taleban and wahibism (from Saudi Arabia) do to women with complete coverage. Either way, it is not part of our culture, and should be outlawed by our government. It is abuse of women, pure and simple.

    I hate Islam. Period.

    Wise up everyone. in thirty to forty years, we might just have a Muslim government in Britain.

  83. Sister, you seem to accept that the results are true but you seem to wish to believe that those questioned would have given answers more acceptable to you if only the circumstances of the questioning had been different. In other words, you seem to want to believe that deep deep down in their very hidden heart-of-hearts a significant number of Muslims are accepting and respecting of gays and lesbians and homosexuality in general. Hmmmm. I have a feeling that you are one of that old school of wishy-washy lets-all-bend-over-backwards Brits who simply can’t be arsed to accept the reality of foreign cultures they have not an inkling of. It’s a very charitable attitude that your Reverend Mother no doubt advises all you Sisters to seek to maintain in your daily lives . . . but it’s completely away-with-the-pixies.

  84. Sister Mary Clarence needs to pack her crucifix and dildos and get herself on a plane for her Islamic country of choice whilst remaining in her habit!

    Let’s see how far a Roman Catholic nun gets beyond her Arab airport!

    Jesus, it’s worth getting one of our more quietly spoken and diminutive lesbian sisters to drag up in a nun’s habit, get on a plane, and have a crack at it with the help of a professional TV-production team! We’d get at least an hour’s worth of cracking entertainment as we watch Sister Mary’s journey to the heart of Islam.

    Come to think of it, a feisty lesbian would be a better bet, because she’ld be more likely to put up a bit of a fight and create some entertainment. Imagine the fracas as our determined Holy Nun seeks to get herself to and INTO Mecca to join the men doing the circles round the Holy Kabba!

    I reckon she’d better be wearing armoured-protection under her Holy Roman habit if she manages to get anywhere NEAR Mina for the stone-throwing!)

  85. Richard Farnos wrote:
    “Firstly thinking homosexuality is “immoral” does not mean that the person is “intolerant”- indeed the whole definition of tolerance is accepting things of which you don’t approve! Now if the Pink News has some evidence that Muslims are disproportionately involved in anti-gay activity or homophobic assaults, then this claim would have substance.”

    The present government has been trying to define and categorise the nature of extremist behaviour.
    Viewing homosexuality as immoral would certainly fit with the present UK government’s classification of intolerance

    Why is it that you differ on this matter?

  86. Sister Mary Clarence 8 May 2009, 1:46pm

    Eddy, please do not put works in my mouth or purport to understand what I might or might not be saying.

    I am a data analyst by occupation. I am professional qualified and have been at it for many years. I have provided my opinion on the quality of the data collected based on the methodology used, nothing more.

    In regard to yours and other comments on here, personally my opinion is that there is a good deal of hysteria on here based on poorly conducted research and tabloid sensationalisation. You I have to say have done more than your fair share of whipping up of that hysteria.

    You appear to have parachuted in to this site recently from I don’t know where, offering opinions on everything and shouting down anyone who dares to have a different opinion. However this item fails squarely within my are of professional expertise and however much of a pocket expert you think you are on, well …. everything, you’re flogging a dead horse on this one.

    In my view this research is not reliable and should not be treated as such. If you refer back to my first comment (35) I did raise a concern even before I’d looked into the methodology that it didn’t read quite right.

    The trouble with stories like this is that they snowball and become circular. You yourself have referred someone to an article elsewhere which is sourced from the same place as this one. If you are pointing anyone anywhere you need to point them to the actual research itself. The Executive summary has clearly been disseminated to the press so they are all generating articles based on the same document. This thing is moving faster than swine flu and it is out of step with other research that has been carried out.

    Slag of Muslims if you want, that is your right to do so, but don’t slag them off on the back of this.

  87. Robert, ex-pat Brit 8 May 2009, 1:55pm

    Keith, just for your information, there is one Jewish sect in America called the Lubavitcher movement that in fact does proselytise, driving around in buses and actively going out on the street to recruit new members, similar to the Jews for Jesus movement.

  88. Sister, you wrote of me (Comment 84) “You appear to have parachuted in to this site recently from I don’t know where, offering opinions on everything . . . ”

    Yes, I can imagine that the extra effort I have been putting into this site in recent months HAS rather taken the limelight off yourself. (I’ve noticed your spoutings on these pages for quite some time, Sister.)

    Whether I “parachuted in” or whether I have simply “logged in” AS EVERY CONCERNED GAY AND LESBIAN PERSON IS ENTITLED TO DO, the appearance on these pages of anyone who counters your views IS rather annoying to you, isn’t it!

    Get USED TO IT, Sister!

    You write that I have come “from I don’t know where”, implying that I must have come from some place unknown and unmonitored and uncomprehended by YOU.

    Get USED TO THAT TOO, Sister!

    Gays and lesbians are welcome to come to this site from WHEREVER THEY CHOOSE! They are ALL welcome. The days when there were very few comments on these pages and you were able to TRY and reign supreme ARE OVER! Get used to it.

    You complain that I am able to offer “opinions on everything . . .” Yeah, I guess that must really hurt you, Sister. Your narrow breadth of experience as a “data analyst” who has, as you have admitted yourself (above), “been at it for many years” must rather have limited the subjects on which you can speak with confidence and/or authority. But somewhere in amongst all that data you’ve been sorting over the years, you must have noticed that there are people on this planet of vastly greater experience than yourself?

    So, as I suggested to you in Comment 82, how about you chuck it all in and go widen your horizons? Book that ticket and go get yourself on a plane for your Islamic country of choice and go see for yourself what the reality of Islam is. THEN you will have something worth listening to on this particular topic.

    Sorry to confront you with the reality that on this subject the views of some little data analyst who has been buried in piles of paperwork in this country for many a year are not, unfortunately, worth a great deal. :-(

  89. Andy & Steve 8 May 2009, 2:25pm

    As long as we have a privileged Church of England infiltrating our law making process it’s going to be mighty tough to take any kind of stand against religion inspired quackery and homo hating.

    Our first and foremost plan must be the disestablishment of the Church Of England and a complete break between religion and state – that means no more funding of “faith” schools from the public purse and making churches, mosques etc pay for the chaplains, imams etc that taxpayers currently shell out £40m for so they can visit fellow god botherers in hospital.

    Once that is done we can take a principled stand on human rights free of religious dogma and insist that all British citizens sign up to that – whatever their colour, creed or sexuality.

    Without that fundamental change in the way we operate there will always be a “them and us” mind set – even if the “them” and the “us” are a teeny proportion of the overall population – which creates tensions between those that hold equality for all as a core value and those that are torn by diktat from their religious leaders.

    If you stop to consider how few people are actual fully paid up god botherers (of any persuasion) in the UK you will wonder why we tolerate so many of them representing the rest of us in the House of Commons and mucking about with legislation in the Lords…..

    I’ll be using my vote at the upcoming elections to chose candidates that hold no dogmatic religious views. Many the rest of us free thinking peeps need to consider doing the same?

  90. Andy & Steve 8 May 2009, 2:57pm

    A slightly less sensational article was published in the Economist today (hint: click our name to read it).

    Interestingly they pick up the dissatisfaction with life British muslims feel along with poor living standards.

  91. Sister Mary Clarence 8 May 2009, 2:58pm

    Eddy, my comments have been on the validity of the research. Unlike you I’ve steered clear of slagging off every Muslim in the country based on that research. I haven’t shouted anyone down who has tried to offer a word of caution about doing so.

    I think most people would acknowledge that Muslim or not you’re not most people are not going to be as open about potentially sensitive subjects with your much and dad, or maybe gran as well, all sitting in the room listening for example.

    Again you’ve extrapolated out of the fact that I’ve held down a career for a period of years, that I’ve never done anything, seen the world or left the house, although its you that have made 10 postings on this thread alone in the last 17 hours. You have on clue whatsoever what I’ve done or how I’ve lived my life, so again please do not purport to know anything abut me.

    Perhaps you now feel a bit of a tit having spent the last 17 hours running down every Muslim in the land, based on a bit on research that may not be all it appears to be. Maybe all this grandstanding is just a defence mechanism.

    There are probably many Muslims that log into this site, who are gay and maybe some straight too, that don’t hate the gay community, but people (I mean you obviously) tend to forget that. Much in the same way as there seems to be an over-riding view that there are no black people using the site when someone kicks off about the attitude of ‘blacks’ to homosexuality.

    Obviously we all appreciate that you having lived in a Muslim country and even had sex with Muslims, does give you an insight into all of this than none of the rest of us has.

    I’m very much looking forward to a story on here about sheep, because I’m wearing a wool jumper today and I had lamb chops for dinner last night. Although, I have to admit I’ve never actually had sex with one.

  92. ….I HAVE, SMC, and it was fantastic :-)

  93. (sorry, I was referring to you comment on muslims, not sheep)

  94. Sorry to go off the point a little
    Never trust a religious fanatic – just remembered that last year my Chinese Malaysian civil partner and I went to Langkawi – an island off Penang – for a short break after visiting his family for Chinese New Year. The airport and plane were full of arab men and teir women woman in the full outfits including the metal mesh across the womans eyes. WTF I thought there must be a special secret resort for them but to my surprise most went to the same 5 star hotel as us. And there they were the first morning round the pool in bikinis and high heels soaking up the sun and drinking champagne – their hairy men wandering around in board shorts.
    They didn’t speak to us but they sure as hell knew we were gay.I love my boyfriend and I’m not ashamed to show it.
    It was even funnier seeing them all back at the airport as we left – all garbed up again and with me nodding and winking at them as they passed.
    It’s the sheer hateful two facedness of it all – can you imagine them if I dared to hug my partner in Saudi Arabia – those same girls would be at the front with their stones.

    Live and let live

  95. Many LGBT people are suffering badly – and dying – at the hands of Muslim theocrats who, unfortunately do have real political power in Iran and other ME countries.

    Iranian Queer Railroad is an organization set up to help LGBT folks find refuge, freedom and citizenship in Western countries. Here’s their blurb:

    “IRQR are working to create a simple structure and focus upon supporting Iranian queers to be safe on their journey and to arrive in a new country to live and be free.

    The Underground Railroad was an informal network of secret routes and safe houses used by 19th century Black slaves in the United States to escape to free states and mainly to Canada with the aid of abolitionists who were sympathetic to their cause. In Canada they had their freedom. In the past few years one of our major activities was about asylum seekers who must escape Iran due to their sexual orientation and we will continue this work under IRQR. Iranian queer refugees are resettling in Canada, and also in United States and in parts of Europe.”

    You can see their work at:

    www dot irqr dot net

    I’m sure our support would be much appreciated.

  96. I am amazed how a call for the genocide of muslims was left on this page, when even moderately homophobic comments are removed.
    I will not even go into the disability inspired hate and bigotry expressed in language. The gay call for acceptance is laughable and hollow considering its own bigotry. I have no time for the religously delusional and no time for the bigotry of the gay community(especially them rather nasty Irish slime.)

  97. Jean-Paul 8 May 2009, 3:30pm

    Eddy (65):

    This will not be an arguement.

    In the first place, I mean no harm and I will chose my words carefully.

    I am what I am and that’s all that I am.

    There are, however, questions and comments to clear up the confusion I feel.

    Let me repeat that I mean no harm.

    I do not expect this post to shed light on the issue at hand. I will be going off on a tangent, primarily to stablelize myself in public since I feel publicly offended.

    I do not mean to say that I am any better than anyone.

    In the first place, how are objectives accomplished by ‘plain speaking and talking the truth about real issues’? ‘Real issues’ that are fed by whom? ‘Truth’ that is defined by whom? ‘Plain’ that is defined by whom?

    I am not an anarchist and I doubt that I will ever be an anarchist.

    I am concerned with holding the LGBT community together. I attempted to encourage Lady Tanya L Pope when she expressed her disappointed at losing the connection IDAHO had established with PinkNews.

    What countries have I visited and have not visited? What misery, poverty and injustices have I witnssed, and was I treated the same way I treated others?

    I enjoy a non-alcoholic beverage from time to time. I am allergic to alcohol. The invitation to share a ginger ale was made to Phil.

    I do not write with a tone of voice.

    Was ‘my Father Abbot a loving man who stretched out his arms to keep his community together in love and peace’?

    Let me repeat again that I mean no harm.

    Love and peace have been both present and absent in my life.

    The writings of Thomas Merton were and remain controversial.

    ‘Arabs are the finest and cleverest hawkers and sellers…’ Stereotyping? In French we say: ‘L’eau va à la rivière.’?

    I was recently told how the company, the culture and the food of Arabic countries was agreeable. I am confused by this contradiction, although I know there are two sides to a coin.

    I have not travelled extensively and I believe Post 11 concerning the nature of homosexuality in Turkey. It is possible the same applies to other Arabic countries as well as western countries.

    I once shared an apartment with a muslim and I was aware of both the positive and negative sides of his nature. I concluded that rather than demonize him for his flaws, I would be more realistic in thinking that I have a positive and a negative side to my temperament as well, and that it would be best for the both of us to keep our distance, and we did. I am in fact a complex human being.

    I would like to understand xenophobia, religionphobia and discobunniephobia?

    I was not sent here by the RCC as a spy.

    I did ‘repeat’ what the filmmaker of this Arabic film had stated and I cannot judge a film without having seeing it?

    These questions and comments are meant to be harmless and are merely a means of understanding the basic message of post 65?

    Finally, since this cannot go on forever, I ask for the third time to be forgiven for an unguarded comment I made about two weeks ago.

    Warm regards

  98. allancsn, thanks for your story. I can totally believe it. So true. Takes me back! Reminded me of “the fuck-flat” I had above me in the “family building” I lived in. (For those unaware of life in Muslim countries, apartment buildings there are sometimes dubbed “family buildings”, meaning single people may not live there). So why was I living there? Don’t know I managed it, actually, but I think it was the high-esteem the locals had for the company that I worked for. Anyway there I was living in this “family building” bang in the middle of town with the nearest Westerner living about a 20-minute walk from my building, and I was on the top floor. Above me was a pent-house. Night after bloody night there was music pounding away until 4am. I couldn’t get near their front door to complain because of the system of the doors they had up there on the roof. Anyway, it turned out eventually that this was just another “fuck-flat”, one of many scattered around Muslim cities. Better-off and well-connected young men rent an apartment that is a bit out of the way, or above other apartments, and they use it for “partying”. Often when I took the lift down from my floor I would walk into a stench of strong Arabic perfumes – indicating the recent presence of Arab women! And sometimes the lift-doors would open and before I could get in out would trip several completely black-sacked women who would then taking the few remaining steps up to the penthouse. As you say, allancsn, complete bloody hypocrisy. Humanity is humanity, and humanity will always out. Many of these Muslims in this country campaigning for Sharia Law here are up to much of the same stuff. Ha! And that reminds me of the bearded Muslim I once went home with up in Keith’s neck of the woods – Manchester. The little two-up-two-down he took me back to had little prayer mats on the floor, nothing but Koranic scripts all over the damn walls, and the living-room featured nothing but a TV, a three-piece suite, and a bowl of fruit. I was soon out of the place. Poor guy. He didn’t know what to do, except that he wanted to do it. And he stank to high heaven.

  99. Recently I saw a western muslim women arguing for women rights through the prism of Islam and its teachings. No mention of homosexuality unfortunately. This reminds me of how Irish gays view the world through their exclusionary nationalistic fanaticism. If they had not been born gay would probably be in the catholic ku klux klan. It is time to say no to religous phychosis and all forms of ignorance fueled bigotry,even prevalent in the queer community.

  100. Dear Jean-Paul, believe me, I know and totally accept who MEAN no harm!

    You say: “Arabs are the finest and cleverest hawkers and sellers…’ Stereotyping?” Jean-Paul, you haven’t ever got yourself lost down the little back alleys of a dusty old souk, have you! I can tell. You OUGHT to experience it! It’s thrilling, in a way.

    You say: “I was recently told how the company, the culture and the food of Arabic countries was agreeable”. Well, Jean-Paul, you were told the truth. The talk-based culture and hospitality of the Arab is very agreeable, and their food is exotic. In fact, we served an entirely Arabic meal, by way of Claudia Roden’s excellent Middle Eastern cookbook, here yesterday to guests! (While at the same time discussing the danger of allowing Islamic Turkey into the EU!) No contradiction there. Both are facts. We can accommodate both.

    As for your having called me “a crazy old coot”, dear Jean-Paul, I bear no grudge against you for that AT ALL! I DID though, however, think it a bit of an about-face at the time, but you have since explained that you use that term with some degree of endearment in your part of the globe.

    So, you crazy old coot you, has this put your mind at ease? I hope so. :-)

  101. Relevant to this discussion, I have just noticed that Yasmin Alibhai Brown wrote recently in The Independent:

    Islam, as practiced by millions today, has lost its compassion and integrity and is entering one of the darkest of dark ages. Here is this month’s short list of unbearable stories (imagine how many more there are which will never be known):

    Iranian painter Delara Darabi, only 22 and in prison since she was 17, accused of murdering an elderly relative, was hanged last week even though she had been given a temporary stay of execution by the chief justice of the country. She phoned her mother on the day of her hanging to beg for help and the phone was snatched by a prison official who told them: “We will easily execute your daughter and there’s nothing you can do about it.” Her paintings reveal the cruelty to which she was subjected.

    Meanwhile Roxana Saberi, a 32- year-old broadcast journalist whose father is Iranian, is incarcerated in Tehran’s Evin prison, accused of spying for the US. She denies this and says she has been framed because she was seen buying a bottle of wine. This intelligent, beautiful and defiant woman is on hunger strike. Over in Saudi Arabia, an eight-year-old child has just divorced a 50-year-old man. Her father, no doubt a very devout man, sold his daughter for about £9,000.”


  102. #68 From Eddy..

    Thanks for that…I am still trying to find my tits which I laffed off onto the floor when reading your COMMENT.

    But isn’t it so right, though..?!
    Fetch that lad oop ‘ere tut north…up to Moss Side, Levenshulme, Longsight…Ha!
    He’d not be able to get back ont’coach, back to London, fast enuff..or Virgin Trains or his a-Rolls-a-Royc-a…
    And the politicos down there…they haven’t a bleedin’ clue either.
    One or two mebbeez…not the majority.
    It’ll all kick off ‘ere in a bit in Oldham again.
    The blue touch-paper is already alight and it is time to stand well back.

  103. Simon Murphy 8 May 2009, 4:01pm

    #98: Victim – please f*ck off.

    You have been on here before obsessing about Ireland in an utterly deranged manner displaying much evidennce of mental illness.

    Ireland has nothing to do with this discussion so your obsession with the place is 100% irrelevant here.

    So as I said – please F*ck off.

  104. What hypocracy from muslims! The religion is intolerant of many things – homosexuality is only one of many, but it reveres Mohammed who married a 6 year old girl, and had sex with her when she was 9 years old. A paedophile without doubt! Thank god I’m an atheist!

  105. Another relevant newspaper article, albeit from the frightful Daily Mail: “Muslim dentist ‘refused to treat female patients unless they wore Islamic dress'”

    “John Snell, for the General Dental Council, said: ‘He sought to impose a dress code on patients attending his practice. He required that women cover their hair with a head scarf, or hijab, and that male patients remove any gold jewellery… and those who did not comply were refused treatment. He made compliance with Islamic dress code a condition of treatment, which is entirely inappropriate under the auspices of the National Health Service.”


  106. Simon Murphy 8 May 2009, 4:12pm

    Some indisputable facts:

    1. Not a single muslim country (by which I mean a country with a majority muslim population) with the exception of Turkey (which has a secular constitution) in the ENTIRE world allows homosexuality. Homosexuality is punishable by death or imprisonment in ALL muslim countries.

    2. There is not a single mainstream muslim organisation in Britain which does not regard homosexuality as immoral and which condemns homophobia.

    Any arguements trying to justifyt the shockingly evil attitudes to homosexuality need to always bear the 2 points above in mind.

    Islam has no right or reason to whine about its own treatment while it engages in such monstrously evil behaviour

  107. For those (above) who have shown disbelief at the result of this Gallop Poll with regard to British Muslims’ attitude of zero tolerance towards homosexuality, the complete account of the methodology of the survey is as follows (as described on page 46 and 47 of the report):

    “The data described in this report come from six different
    surveys. In the United Kingdom, phone interviews were
    conducted among the general population in June 2008 and
    included 1,001 interviews of individuals aged 15 years and
    older, whose households were contacted via Random Digital
    Dial (RDD). Within each household, the individual with
    the most recent birthday was selected to take the interview.
    Data were weighted based on gender, age, household size,
    and education to reflect the general population. Face-to-face
    interviews were conducted with British Muslims, aged 18
    and older, during July 2008 in England, Wales, and Scotland
    in areas where the Muslim population was 5% or more
    based on the 2001 British census. Data collection resulted in
    504 completed interviews. Face-to-face interviews followed
    random route protocols within assigned primary sampling
    units (PSUs) to ensure that a representative population
    of Muslims living in neighborhoods with at least 5%
    Muslim penetration was obtained. The Muslim data were
    weighted to gender, age, and selection probability within the

    The French general population was surveyed in June 2008
    and included 1,006 interviews of individuals aged 15 years
    and older following the same guidelines as detailed in the
    United Kingdom general sample. RDD was used to identify
    a random selection of households and post-data collection
    weighting based on gender, age, household size, and
    education was used. Face-to-face interviews were conducted
    with French Muslims, aged 15 and older in June 2008. The
    total sample included 513 French Muslims in locations
    where the percentages of the population of immigrant
    background (first and second generation) are 10% or higher,
    using data provided by the National Institute for Statistics
    and Economic Studies (INSEE). The French Muslim
    population data were weighted based on household size.
    The German general population was polled four times in
    2008. Interviews were conducted in June, July, October,
    and December and included 1,011, 1,003, 1,002, and 1,008
    individuals, respectively. Data used in this report were
    compiled from multiple waves. When available, data from
    June or July were used as these were the closest field dates
    to the Muslim data available from the United Kingdom
    and France. When data were unavailable from June or July,
    October and then December data were incorporated. The
    same guidelines detailed in the British and French general
    samples were used in Germany for the general population.
    RDD was used to identify a random selection of households
    and post-data collection weighting based on gender,
    age, household size, and education was used to ensure a
    nationally representative sample of German households.
    The German Muslim population was interviewed via phone
    using RDD, focusing on high probability responses from a
    database of Muslim first names and family names (sourced
    in linguistic origin) to increase the likelihood of reaching
    Muslim families in Germany. The 506 German Muslims were polled from mid-June to mid-July 2008, and the data
    were weighted based on gender, age, and household size.
    The items included in each survey were similar across all
    three general populations. With respect to the Muslim
    populations, the British and French populations received a
    longer version of the questionnaire because of the structure
    of the face-to-face interviewing process. Phone interviews
    require shorter questionnaires and as a result, some items
    were not fielded to German Muslims.

    The maximum margin of sampling error for all six
    populations is ±5 percentage points. All Muslim populations
    were offered the survey in multiple languages. In France, the
    survey was available in French and Arabic. In the United
    Kingdom, it was available in English, Urdu, and Arabic. In
    Germany, the survey was available in Turkish and Arabic. All
    sample populations are aged 15 and older with the exception
    of British Muslims, whose interviews were conducted with
    individuals aged 18 and older. Also, this report makes a
    reference to the 2006-2007 study of European Muslims,
    which focused on Muslims in Berlin, Paris, and London
    and their corresponding general populations and analyzed a
    variety of the same items that were included in the present
    report. Caution should be noted in drawing any comparisons
    between the Muslim samples in the capital cities from the
    2007 report and the nationwide Muslim samples described
    in the current report. Differences in methodology between
    these two populations do not allow for direct comparisons.”

    Source (the official downloadable PDF file):

  108. Simon Murphy (Thread 105). . . at last some one is addressing a very disturbing reality of Islam which I feel there are some incredible defences against on this site . . . well done.

    Fundamentalism be it Islamic, Christian, Jewish etc is incompatible with 21st century western societies. . .

  109. vulpus_rex 8 May 2009, 4:29pm

    Simon Murphy – that is an outrageously inaccurate claim.

    My boyfriend used to live in Indonesia, and tells me it is not Illegal there. A quick trawl through wikipedia will give you some further examples such as Egypt, Iraq and Jordan.

  110. I have just read that silence is consent. That is the attitude of all backward people towards the mentally ill. This is a one trick pony website which is obseesed with one form of discrimination. I would never call for the genocide of the Irish like people on here talking about killing all muslims.But if if it happenned probably would not cause me to shed one tear. Until bigotry against the mentally ill is condemned i will be there with my “deranged mind”. So go f*ck off you two bit quasi intellectual. Your anti “religous cult” obsession is a great laugh considering your catholic muck savage homeland. I fuckin despise your nationality. Its great fun since my psychiatrist told me its a rational anger.Even if it wasn’t it provides me with great joy. So i guess I should be thanking you Paddy!!Catholic Ireland was about as openminded as Iran so stop feeling so superior to the poor souls unfortunate enough to be born in the middle east. So thanks Mick’ I mean Murphy mental illness is great craic!!

  111. Sister Mary Clarence, and others similarly sceptical of the Gallup Poll being discussed here, please copy the following link into your browser and watch this video of an ordinary old run-of-the-mill imam just delivering his weekly Friday sermon to a mosque packed with Muslim men (except that this guy was also recorded for local TV broadcast – so think of this as the Muslim equivalent of “Songs of Praise”!)

    But, before you watch it, Sr. Mary and those others who would still bend-over-backwards for the Muslim agenda, please bear in mind that right through the Islamic world, from the west coast of Africa right across to Malaysia, sermons like this happen in every mosque on the corner of every block every Friday midday every week of the year! And if you don’t get yourself along to the mosque to listen to it, there’s no escape it. The whole thing is broadcast by powerful speakers from the outside of the mosque tower! Shut the windows if you like, but no Muslim can escape the weekly brainwash unless he puts on headphones and turns up the volume of music system – and what good Muslim would be thought doing that every Friday midday by his mates? Wherever there are mosques elsewhere, such as in the UK and Europe, this is the sort of stuff that this being disseminated. And bear in mind this “priest” is only about controlling the women in your family! Try to imagine what these guys are like when they push the gear-stick up and get on to the subject of us queers!

    We must have some lesbian readers of these pages? Girls, you’re gonna want to crucify this guy!

  112. Simon, I’ll leave you to attend to Vulpy, if you think he’s worth the effort. (Jesus! Some people are so badly out of step with what’s going on in the world, aren’t they!)

  113. Stuart Neyton 8 May 2009, 4:47pm

    I’m slightly ashamed of some people’s attitudes to these polls. It seems we’re demanding tolerance from one group of people and at the same time showing intolorance towards them for their faith. In fact, as always some have taken this to the extreme by splitting everyone into two camps: gays versus muslims. Perhaps some of you may be surprised to hear that gay muslims do exist.

    Yes, this poll concerns me, but it hardly helps our cause to tar every single muslim in the world with the same brush.

  114. #86 from ROBERT EX-PAT BRIT.


    What you can pick up from this site..!
    … wubbleyou wubbleyou wubbleyou!!

    Thanks for that, Robert; I did not know about the Lubavitcher Jews, but I do now; and thanks to GOOGLE..!
    I dumped all that Jewry junk yonks ago, well my forebears did; the Russian pogroms did it… and the upheaval that all that caused my grandfather’s dad.
    My grandad said, when listening once to his Rabbi dad ranting and raving in the adopted country here in Cheetham Hill, Manchester “Forget it! Leave me out! I thought we had left all that crap behind in Russia..!?!!??”
    I have enuff probs. anyway keepin’ up with, and keepin’ me eye out for, fundy Christianity and its fascist diktats in the shape of the RCC and the pile of looney sects which have sprung up worldwide over the last couple of milleniumseseses..!

    Nutters all!

    Which is long as they ‘leave me out of it all’, to quote my old ‘pops.
    Why he took up with a a mad Irish Kafflick Mooney is a mystery…must have bin lurve…



  115. I have to admit to sitting on the fence here… yes there is plenty of gay intolerance in the Islamic community and I can’t deny the stats on that, but as Stuart pointed out, there is such a thing as a gay muslim and my boyfriend is one of them.
    Perhaps because of that I have to look at intolerance on a case by case basis, as a blanket notion that all muslims are homophobes is blatantly untrue, and not likely to get us far.
    Anyhow, all this fencesitting is giving me a giant pain in the bum, so if you’ll excuse me I’m off to find some Savlon!

  116. I like you Keith you seem as well balanced and singularly obsessed as me lol!I heard in a conspiracy theory because Jews disapproved of gays, so the gay infiltrated Nazis enacted the holocaust.Then people on here are talking about killing all muslims. Could there be a grain of truth in that neo-con conspiracy theory. You bastards! you killed Kyle.

  117. Sister Mary Clarence 8 May 2009, 6:04pm

    Eddy – too busy cutting and pasting then to actually read it then:

    “Face-to-face interviews followed random route protocols within assigned primary sampling units (PSUs) to ensure that a representative population of Muslims living in neighborhoods with at least 5% Muslim penetration was obtained. The Muslim data were weighted to gender, age, and selection probability within the

    Over 5% is quoted. This is a cost based decision. The higher the concentration of Muslims, the more chance of a completed interview and the lower the overall cost per interview. They conducted half the interviews in areas of high concentrations of Muslims.

    They could scarcely have gone further out of their way to ensure that didn’t engage with your average Muslim on the street.

    There would have been no face-to-face interviews conducted with Muslims living in small towns or villages that did not have a large Muslim population, people arguable likely to be more integrated to Western lifestyle.

    They were unlikely by this method to connect with gay Muslims, who traditionally migrate from their home communities.

    Areas with high densities of Muslims are also statistically likely to be more deprived. I have also made the point before that recession and economic hardship with increase intolerance and acceptance and the data clearly shows that the Muslim sample has significantly higher unemployment and are less satisfied that than the broader population with their standard of living.

    Its is also not common in the UK to gather two data sets via different methodologies and then do a straight comparisons. Would you give the same answer to a sensitive question over the phone as you would if looking someone straight in the eye? It is well documented that often you wouldn’t

    Benchmarking other general population results in the survey as a whole against other attitudinal surveys that have been carried out in the last couple of years the results are different, which on top of the questionable methodology, in my mind further discredits the entire survey.

  118. Sister Mary Clarence 8 May 2009, 6:07pm

    Flapjack, that’s my point – sitting in his parents living room with the entire family in earshot would your boyfriend (or someone like him), feel comfortable enough to answer all the questions put to him freely?

  119. Sister Mary Clarence 8 May 2009, 6:16pm

    Whilst I don’t particularly want to come across as Islam’s best mate, because I’m not, but can I just say Eddy, that I have no idea where you live but do you not come across regular day-to-day people from time to time that are Muslim.

    London is awash with apparently not particularly practising Muslims that are getting on with their lives that are not too dissimilar to everyone else. Go to any club, sauna or sex bar and there are all sorts of people there from a variety of religions.

    Its not all shouty, shouty, shouty on a Friday night down the mosque or running around in a hijab. Your understanding of the term ‘Muslim’ only seems to refer to a section of a broader community.

  120. Stuart Neyton Wrote
    “I’m slightly ashamed of some people’s attitudes to these polls. It seems we’re demanding tolerance from one group of people and at the same time showing intolorance towards them for their faith. In fact, as always some have taken this to the extreme by splitting everyone into two camps: gays versus muslims. Perhaps some of you may be surprised to hear that gay muslims do exist.
    Yes, this poll concerns me, but it hardly helps our cause to tar every single muslim in the world with the same brush.”

    Two questions:
    Where are the Gay Imams?
    Where are the Female Imams?

  121. Sister Mary Clarence, don’t you fucking lecture me on what I know and don’t know about Muslims! How DARE you! Who the HELL do you think you are?

    Furthermore, your analysis of the Gallup methodology I located and pasted in above for the benefit of all proves your weird and strange hell-bent desire to try and believe as best you can that the results of the survey are not true. Well, there’s no convincing you is there. You’ve decided it ain’t true. Major international study and little Sr. Mary decides it ain’t true.

    In one of the jobs I do, Sunshine, which is not some nerdy little analysing-data stint on a safe salary with absolutely no windows on real life, I teach fucking lectureroomfuls of young MUSLIMS! Young British Muslims. Did you hear me, sweetheart? Lectureroomfuls of young British Muslims.

    Christ, you are SO fucking arrogant Sister Mary Bloody Clarence! I’ve witnessed your style for ages. Only now are you getting the missile up your fanny.

    Your earlier fury today at my being able to speak about this and many other matters with authority really revealed what a sad little creature you are. Yep, I’ve rattled your cage and it’s about time someone did.

    Sorry to do it, Sweetie, but you’ve come up against somebody much much bigger than you in this time. So put your head down, get back to your ticker tape, count your numbers and your data, consider just who you are in this universe and then exercise a little humility.

    As I said before you may have been trying to rule the roost on Pink News for a good long time now . . . but those days are over!

    You are just a simple blinkered superficial little clerk!

    And for the third time today I tell you this: if you wish to continue pontificating on matters Muslim toss your safe little job in, get yourself a plane ticket, and a visa, and go live in the heart of some Arab city away from the safety of expats . . . and begin to LEARN. Spend a couple of years there.

    And then come back and talk to us.

    You’ll be singing a very different song, Sweetie Pie.

  122. #115
    HELLO VICTIM..And thanks for your comment.

    I am sorry but I am as thick as two short planks and your erudite comment went over me poor likkle ‘ead, somewhat!
    An old schoolfriend who is now a Catholic priest in a religious order told me that “ is not good for you to be so obsessed with the Catholic Church…” because I banged on about it so much to him…much as I bang on about it to you poor peeps.

    I am now off his Chrimbo card list; I care not.

    The last time we spoke, I told him “Of course I am bloody obsessed with the Catholic Church and speak out against it, on this homosexuality thingy, at every turn, you numpty! I do not want its prejudice and ignorance to have the same effect on another kid the same as it had on me for years as a result of being told to get electric shock treatment for the supposed ‘condition’ of my homosexuality…”
    I am now retired, nowt else to do, nothing to get up for on a Monday morning and am thinking of going back to Sunday mass here in SALFORD CATHEDRAL, to sit and listen to what is being said from the pulpit, if anything at all.
    And by the ‘eck!!.. if I hear one word…I shall be up on me pins and wade in…
    Anyway, I think the Catholic Church slowly realises it has been wrong in that promotion (the electrickery treatment) but can’t say; a bit like the Galileo/sun/earth hoo-haa but the daft old farts still say that it (homosexuality) is “intrinsically disordered” and leads to a grave moral evil.
    I can understand, and although now a lapsed Catholic, can more or less accept, that any sexual activity outside marriage is a moral evil.
    What I cannot accept is that homosexuality is “intrinsically disordered”.
    Sure it would not do for us all to be the same; if everybody was a fairy fart like me, the world would start to grind to a halt in about 20 years. But there must be a reason for homosexuality and it is this inability to be open to exploration, which the Catholic Church is, on so many issues, that keeps me out of the Church and away from any practice of any religion. To the point where it has become a big … ‘WHO CARES…WHY BOTHER’ for me now, except to say that I want today’s kids not to have to go thro’ what I went thro’…today’s kids not to seek the peace of the grave by their own hand…which is heartbreaking and an indictment on all these religious purists/fundamentalists/nutters…take your pick.


  123. 0Eddy (thread 120. . . Brutal but honest – bless you for that.

    When I read our Sisters analysis of an international study by a highly reputable research company . . . I burst out laughing . . . best reconstruction of a mountain from a mole hill I have heard in long time. I will be cutting and pasting this analysis to show my students how to fail.

  124. …it is the insistence by the RCC (and by extension, other fundamentalist factions,) that (homosexuality) is an ‘intrinsic disorder’ which gives the ammo to morons which ultimately slays the innocent … who suffer every time.
    Every bigot-yob feels that right is on his side to “let’s kick/blow up another faggot to death (ADMIRAL PUB). They are not interested in reason. Reason enuff is that ‘the pope don’t like faggotts either.. so it must be all right..!’
    Thinking for themselves is out of the question…
    And that doesn’t even touch on the suicides and associated ruined lives..

  125. Victim: As someone both gay and Irish I implore you: please keep posting as much as possible. Seeing as circus freakshows are frowned upon in this day and age it’s a rare treat to get the form of entertainment you provide to this forum.

  126. It’s about we all wake up and stop more muslim immigration until the muslims here understand and abide by democracy. Islam is politics – fascism. STOP THE MUSLIMS!

  127. Comment #110 from EDDY from MAY 8.

    Thank you for that, EDDY.

    Very enlightening.

    I am not so much bothered about Islam because I am too fired up about my own bigotted lot, the RCC.

    I know I should be bothered, VERY bothered.

    There is no difference in that foaming-at-the-trap mullah and Adolf Hitler; crazed with the power that their own self-righteousness imparts; the glaring eyes, the downward thrust of the hands, the raised voice; nutter of the first water..!

    On a different tack, my own RCC are no less powerful for their seeming lack of histrionics; every bit as mind-controlling and insidious.

    There has to be a way of stopping the likes of this mullah coming here and there has to be a way of signifying that BENEDICT/RATZINGER is not welcome here either, whilst he espouses the dangerous and ignorant bigotry that he does which harms so many by proxy.
    What is the difference in refusing entry to PHELPS and allowing BENEDICT/RATZINGER in?

    Head of State, I suppose..?

    This country needs to go secular; the C of E is a spent, ball-less force and we shall all be caught in a pincer between the 2 sets of fundamentalist nutters; I won’t be here to see it but there’s plenty in their buggies at the mo who just might.

  128. Simon_Murphy comment 55
    Sorry I’m so late responding – or perhaps it’s the volume of comments. Of course I agree that gay and lesbian Muslims should be at the forefront of changing Islamic attitudes to homosexuality. But those people can’t exist in a vacuum. The Koran is entirely clear that if you’re a Muslim in a foreign country, you have to respect the laws of that country or leave. Of course there are a lot of interpretations in the Muslim community about that – some of which are straight-line acceptance and some of which say the law should be changed in a country towards a more Muslim system.

    However, far too many of the posts above have become fixated on Muslim and forgotten the gay. If you’re confronted with a gay Muslim, what do you respond to: the gay or the Muslim? It’s a complex and difficult ethical decision for a lot of people. It falls into that Christian philosophy of ‘hate the sin but love the sinner’. It’s a false decision to be forced to make. If we want to change Muslim values (as have been done elsewhere in the world) then we have to accept that a man can be gay and Muslim and that we should look at positive ways of changing attitudes rather than saying that Islam is a lost cause and we – as outsiders – can have no impact on it. That’s just responding to ill-informed fear rather than reality. In Britain we’re not making a change, but elsewhere in the world they are. What’s our failing as gay men that we can’t change attitudes? We know from other European nations that those attitudes can be changed, so why isn’t that happening in Britain?
    I’m not saying any of this is easy or there’s any clear route-map that we ought to follow – I’m at a loss as much at anyone else here about a clear and easily achievable policy. But I know we need a policy.
    Please don’t think I’m attacking you personally. Even when I disagree with you, I love reading your arguments because you make me think. People like you and Sister Mary Clarence and Eddie and Flapjack and other people who’ve contributed to this debate are such wonderful thinkers that even if I disagree with them, I feel incredibly proud that I’m gay.

  129. Sister Mary Clarence 9 May 2009, 3:34am

    ddy, re rant#120, I still can’t get my head round why you are continuing to suggest that I trot off to some Muslim country to experience life there. This survey isn’t about life in another country. Its about perceptions of life here in the UK.

    And yes, I have decided the research isn’t true. Cost clearly played a big part in the choices of methodology, and in my view that has tainted the results of a survey carried out by a minor US spin off of a major international company. My view would be that they have used lower standards than would be accepted within the UK. Interviewing two separate samples gained through entirely different sampling methods and comparing the results is avoided at all costs in this country because the results are never truly comparable.

    Okay so you sometimes lecture Muslim kids, getting over how frightening the reality of you having access to vulnerable minds actually is, you must know that they are not all fundamentalists or extremists, and yet you’re quite happy to believe that the research never touched on a single person with the slightest tolerance of homosexuality. In spite of all the bile you’ve spewed on this thread I still find it hard to believe.

    You have clearly misunderstood me if you think I was furious that you could speak about this matter with any authority. I’m absolutely clear, and I thought I’d already made that point, that I don’t think you can speak with any authority whatsoever.

    I’m not going to get my CV out for you or anyone else on here, but I’m sorry, you’re easily impressed. This is some poxy little piece of research done by a subsidiary of a subsidiary of TNS and I expect any senior at TNS looking at it will shit we they see how its been done. The fact that you can Google upteen other studies that show wildly different results to this one would probably be sufficient to get the alarm bells ringing (although not yours clearly). Its hardly at the pinnacle of social and political research, and I’d be ashamed to put my name to it.

    “Only now are you getting the missile up your fanny”

    “Yep, I’ve rattled your cage and it’s about time someone did.”

    “Sorry to do it, Sweetie, but you’ve come up against somebody much much bigger than you in this time”

    “ …. consider just who you are in this universe and then exercise a little humility”

    “…. but those days are over”

    What I actually think, aside from the fact that you’re an arrogant, wannabe bully and a twat, is that because you’re got some cursory connection, part-time it would appear, with a small section of the British Muslim community, and that you seem to have, well, all but prostituted yourself, whilst overseas in some unknown Arab-Muslim country. From that you appear to think that you are the only person on here qualified to comment on matters Muslim, more so I expect than any of the Muslims on here even. A couple of hours lecturing at some polyversity or wherever gives you the right to preach hate and generalise about a fifth of the world’s population, who clearly in your eyes all think exactly the f**king same. In fact thinking about it, Gallup didn’t even need to do the survey, did they? They could have just come and asked you instead. They could have published your world view, even if it was wrong it would have still been right.

    Just because you read it in the paper doesn’t make it right. Slagging me off for disagreeing with you won’t make it right either.

    I do not profess to know what the entire Muslim community in this country is thinking, however I do profess to know how to collect reliable data and how to analysis it.

  130. Simon Murphy 9 May 2009, 4:45am

    No 127 Darrien:

    I have no idea what your personal belief system is so I hope I’m not being offensive here but quite frankly I don’t think it is worthwhile to worry about offending muslim sensibilities. Muslims believe in Allah. Like Cher I belieeeeeeeeve in life after love. My belief is absolutely as valid as theirs. If I meet a gay muslim I always see him as gat first. After all he cannot change that he’s gay but his muslim faith is voluntary and therefore simply a choice that he can and should reject.

  131. Simon Murphy 9 May 2009, 4:52am

    No. 109: Vctim: you say:

    “Your anti “religous cult” obsession is a great laugh considering your catholic muck savage homeland. I fuckin despise your nationality. Its great fun since my psychiatrist told me its a rational anger.”

    Who’s your psychiatrist?

    Rose West perhaps?

  132. In my note #8, I told all you peeps to get your wallets out..I was taking bets that this page on rant-ettes.
    You were not so stupid, were you all…!!
    JUST LOOK…!!
    ALREADY AT 130..

  133. It’s 8 a.m. and I have just heard on the news that the Pope is now in the Middle East and will be holding olive-branch talks with Muslims leaders and bla bla bla…so far, so predictabubble.
    He will then pray in the Blue Mosque which was paid for by the Jordanian Royal family who, to quote Radio 4, claim direct descent from the Prophet Mohammed.
    Need I rant on…?

    What hope has the ordinary Joe, whether he be Joe ‘Joe Muslim’ or ‘Joe Christian’, when such arrogant tosh as that is……

    I won’t complete the sentence; throttle the rant right there..

  134. Simon, hi. You wrote (Comment 29): “After all he [any gay Muslim you might meet] cannot change that he’s gay but his Muslim faith is voluntary and therefore simply a choice that he can and should reject.”

    Simon, unfortunately for Muslims I don’t believe it is as simple as this. To give you an idea of what I am getting at, I believe that Muslims are in much the same bind as those Northern Irish Catholics who have lived through the troubles in Northern Ireland and who, from birth, have sensed their Catholicism in their bones, been aware of it at every conscious moment, maybe having been savagely beaten up on the street for it by Northern Irish Protestants, having had a father or brother or whoever shot or knee-capped because of that Catholic identity. What happened with such Catholics (AND of course with such NI Protestants too) is that their religious identity became, from birth, WHO THEY WERE/ARE, an undividable part of their being. One I know has attempted to thrust aside his Catholicism but failed. The best he has been able to manage is to repress it and go and live far far away from Ireland, on the other side of the world amongst a people who are not Christian (and not Muslim, by the way!).

    I think you will understand and accept the above. Now because of my considerable experience of the Islamic world, I suggest that it is much the same with Muslims – certainly Muslims of the Islamic world. They grow up in environments dominated by Islam, where Islam is omnipresent, where products in shop-windows are dictated by the tenants of Islam, where the content of films they watch on television are dictated by the bearded guardians of Islam if not Muslim television controllers themselves, and so on and so on, including the learning by rote of passages from The Koran (if not the whole bloody thing in some cases!) from an early age, and of course the relentless five-times a day brainwash blaring out of the loudspeakers on the corner of practically every block. The permeation of life achieved by Islam can only be appreciated by living and working at the heart of a Muslim community in an Islam-dominated country.

    Thus for the average Muslim, their faith is not something separate from them. It is who they are. Just as they say, “Once a Catholic, always a Catholic”, I believe you can say, “Once a Muslim, always a Muslim”. I was a Catholic once. I rejected Catholicism many years ago. I was able to do it. It was difficult. It left a big hole in my life for a while. But I was able to do it because Catholicism had never been that much DYED into my very bones.

    Now it might be a bit easier for a British Muslim living outside a Muslim ghetto in Britain today to reject his/her faith, provided there is a degree of support there from his/her family. But nevertheless, to British Muslims their faith is not the nominal thing it is for those British Christians who pop along to the local church once a week for a bit of hymn-singing and socialising.

    And the last thought I have on this is that I have got close to a handful of different Muslims over the years who have been up to their eyeballs in alcohol and sex, i.e. “BAD BAD Muslims” one might say. I have found them fascinating and have pressed them on occasion, suggesting they might go that bit further and simply throw off the label “Muslim”. Well, I can only report to you, Simon, that without exception all of them have resignedly told me this is impossible. “I am Musleeem! What can I do? I will always be Musleeem!” “Then don’t you ever think of what terrible punishments Allah will give you when you die?” “Momkin. Maybe. It will be as it will be. What can I do? If God is willing, maybe . . . ”

    At the heart of Islam is a frightful passivity, induced by that brainwashing from the cradle. This is one of the reasons why I am very fearful of the generally silent power of the Islamic agenda. Yasmin Alibhai Brown has a more current and intimate understanding of Islam today than I and so I think we ought to pay attention to her words (quoted more fully above):

    “Islam, as practised by millions today, has lost its compassion and integrity and is entering one of the darkest of dark ages.”


  135. Exactly so.
    For Muslim read Catholic.
    For Catholic read Muslim.
    ….and you are right, too, about the void that the abandonment of your Catholicism left you with.
    ‘It is who you ARE..’….SPOT ON.

  136. Our resident nun wrote in Comment 28:

    “Okay so you sometimes lecture Muslim kids, getting over how frightening the reality of you having access to vulnerable minds actually is, you must know that they are not all fundamentalists or extremists, . . . “

    “Sometimes”, you say, when you have no notion of the frequency of my work. My, how your data analysis must be dodgy!

    “. . . you sometimes lecture Muslim kids”, you say – clearly putting down very bright and highly motivated Muslim students. So we shouldn’t trust you to decide on who is worthy of being interviewed and who not.

    “Muslim kids . . . vulnerable minds”, you say. Steady on, Sister. You’ll be spitting accusations of paedophilia at me next!

    “The fact that you can Google upteen [sic] other studies that show wildly different results to this one would probably be sufficient to get the alarm bells ringing”

    So, you will be pleased to publish here, instantly Sister, your “upteen other studies” which as authoritatively reveal the attitudes of Muslims in Britain TODAY to homosexuality as the Gallup Coexist Poll has done.

    “A couple of hours lecturing at some polyversity”

    “A couple of hours”, you say, when you have no notion of the frequency of my work. Again, how dodgy your data analysis must be, Sister!

    “at some polyversity”, you say, when you have no notion of the institutions by which I am and have been invited to lecture. Additionally, I think it ill-behoves you, Sister, give the clear evidence of your dodgy thinking to deride all the new universities as “polyversities” – not that I have worked only for traditional league universities!

    “I do profess to know how to collect reliable data and how to analysis it.”

    You don’t “analysis” data. You “analyse” it, dearie, you “analyse” it.

    Sheesh! Only Mohammed, Jesus, Mary, Joseph, and all the Saints in Heaven can know what a bleeding mess you must be making of your data analysis, Sister Mary Clarence!

    Like I tell some of my students, whether Muslim or not, whose work just isn’t up to university standard . . . Go tidy your act up, Sister, or scram!

  137. Folks some heated and worth while comments . . . but can we get this thread back to its original theme:

    “Poll finds zero tolerance for homosexuality among UK Muslims”

    Some heated discussions on both sides . . . and I want to thank every one so far who has been contributing with their precious time and commitment to writing these threads.

    I think the last thread was from Sister Mary Clarence arguing against the methodology of the Gallup report . . .

    Sister take it away . . . or lets have a response to our Sister

  138. Keith, you wrote that you think the Catholic Church is slowly realising it has been wrong in its promotion of “the electrickery treatment”.


    This is just one of dozens of amusing linguistic inventions of yours!

    Keith, I don’t believe you really understand what a VERY inventive and entertaining mind you have! I’ve told you before and I have to tell you again: you’ve got to write poetry, mate, and get it published by one of the cooperatives up there in Manchester. (Just get yourself along to a creative writing group. They’ll you how to do it.)

    Harness your justified fury, your inventiveness, your desire to express yourself, and put it into something more lasting than just these disappearing flippin’ threads! That’s not to say, though, that the flap of every butterfly wing in the world does not have an effect on the rest of the planet! But you could have a greater effect still, Keith.

    You know, you could just nip back through the Pink News archives, find all your postings, copy and paste them into a document, and just tidy up each one in terms of one-thought-per-poem, reasonably uniform line-length, and a few more appropriate touches, and voila! There you are! Your first collection of poems! Think about it! I’ld love to come up to Manchester for your first reading at Waterstones!

  139. John K, you ask “Sister take it away!”. Yep, we’re all waiting.

    Sister’s shortly to publish HERE her “upteen other studies” which authoritatively reveal the attitudes of Muslims in Britain TODAY to homosexuality.

    Our breaths are bated. NOT.

  140. I also disagree with our Sisters concerns over the methodology of this Gallup study . . . Sister we will have to agree to disagree on that one.

    What I do agree with is our Sisters argument for caution, i.e that we do not demonize all Muslims. . .

    Yasmin Allabai-brown the Conservative peer is a good example of a freethinking person . . . affirming of women . . . affirming of gays, proud to be a Muslim; definitely not a fundamentalist. Yes . . . more of these Muslims . . . what a lovely women. Bless you Yasmin

    Back to the study “Zero tolerance” I do not feel is meant to be taken literally, but because this was an international study there was a pan political agenda. When they compare Muslim attitudes to homosexuality in France, UK and Germany . . . I think what they are really trying to do is say is . . . Hey . . . look the secular polices in France seem to be working with regards to Muslim Integration here.

  141. #136.
    JOHN K
    “…or let’s have a response to our Sister”
    How’s about..’GET THEE TO A NUNNERY..’

  142. Steve (2) 9 May 2009, 1:13pm

    if I could add to the debate late in the day that it has been said that the poll hasn’t been conducted by gallup is has actually been conducted by an off shoot of the company. i spoke to a friend last night, working for the tns/gallup in london and he thinks that the people that did this are nothing at all to do with them. hes going to find out definitely and let me know but it might be monday. ive asked him to log into here with some comments as well.

  143. #137

    Too kind by ‘arf..!

    Thanks, I seeketheth only to entertainetheth..the collected ramblings of an old fart…very hurt in the past by it all, spesh when it was illegal.. altho’ more fun! … and very mashed up by the RCC as a kid myself…
    But I have risen above it all, luvvie…risen above it all… and now??
    Well, now, I just laff at it all, as much as ever I did at the ‘CARRY ON’ flicks of my kidhood.
    It’s a right ‘CARRY ON…UP THE VATICAN’..!

    Just sorry for the kids, that’s all, and that’s why I scribble away on here; that’s my only agenda; the kids who are being failed miserably by their elders, baptised into all this shite, because there is no need for all this angst still; no need for all this continuing exclusion.

    For more reasons than one, the Kirk, the Catholic Church and fundamentalists of all types should adopt Gary Glitter’s “D’YA WANNA BE IN MA GANG, MA GANG…O YEEAH…!” as their closing anthem at their SONGS of PRAISE of a Sunday.

    Because that’s what it is, gang warfare.

    For hoodies, and spittin’-for-no-apparent-reason…and unintelligible RAP, just transpose long silk pointy hats, flowing gold capes, thuribles, incense and mumblings in Latin…which language I believe is makin’ a come back under Ratzi, the verknackerla not being obtuse and exclusatory enough for the die-hard Trads/Lefebvrists.

    God cannot possibly be lissnin’ to all that rubbish…?!

    All of it is ‘MY GANG MY GANG’ sectarianism, bullets, hate, blood and gore on the streets.

    It’s bolloxx..ALL OF IT..!

    And the likes of that Kirk minister, Mr. Scott RENNIE [SCOTTISH MINISTER REVEALS STRUGGLE OVER HIS SEXUALITY…] whose ecclesiastical future is being debated bysuperior ‘worthies.’…? Poor sod.
    I am 70; to me he is only a kid, makin’ his way in life; what is he, 30-some, from his photo, by the looks of him…?
    I include him in the kids that I am so sorry for, today. (sooory Mr. R..!)
    One or two on that thread have taken me to task over my comments that he should just dump the fookin’ lot and run.
    They are entitled to comment adversely on my comments and their points are as valid as mine…but it is yet another example of Glitter’s ‘MY GANG MY GANG’.(..the Kirk, that is; not those opposing my comments on the thread.)

    He will not win.

    He is preaching love, tolerance and acceptance.
    His Master taught that, too and look what happened to Him.

    YER ‘AFF TER LAFF…otherwise you’d top your bleedin’ yourself.

  144. Sister Mary Clarence 9 May 2009, 2:04pm

    When we ask people about their preferences on ice cream flavor, peanut butter texture, or late-night television host, we have little reason to suspect that they will deceive us. These are easy questions, and we may analyze the collected data as if they are easy. If, for marketing purposes, a dairy company hires us to determine the demographics of vanilla versus chocolate-lovers, we could run the data through a standard logit or probit model and be reasonably confident in our estimates. Change the question, however, and the situation becomes more complicated: instead of asking people about ice cream, what happens if we instead ask about more sensitive issues? Is it safe for us to assume that people will answer truthfully if we ask them whether they approve/disapprove of affirmative action (Berinsky 1999)? Whether they have/have not committed welfare fraud (van der Heijden et al. 2000)? Whether they have/have not visited an adult web site in the preceding week (Kolata 1987)? Ice cream is an easy question because people face no sanctions regardless of whether they prefer chocolate or vanilla. But sensitive questions are decidedly different. Affirmative action is a highly normatively-charged political issue, and we might fear that those who disapprove of the policy may be hesitant to express their disapproval to an interviewer. Welfare fraud is illegal: we might plausibly fear instances will be underreported, especially among people suspicious of the interviewer’s intentions. Visits to adult web sites are simply embarrassing, and expecting people to answer truthfully (if at all) may be expecting a little bit much. In each of these situations, we would be optimistic indeed to assume that the responses we dutifully record on our interview sheets are all accurate reflections of the respondents’ actual opinions or behaviors. Why are we modeling? When we model a social process, we are hoping to make inferences about the social process itself, and not our observations of that social process per se. In doing so, we generally assume that our data do in fact reflect this process to a reasonable degree, or at least that any deviations are essentially random. To put it another way, we assume that the observations on our dependent variable do in fact reflect the “true” values of that variable.

    This is no doubt a reasonable enough assumption in a great many cases, as when the war we observe happening is, in fact, happening. For self-reported data found in surveys, however, there will be times when this assumption may be dubious, even bordering on the heroic. Quite simply, the analyst does not know if the respondent is telling the truth. This is a particularly troublesome problem when dealing with controversial, embarrassing, or illegal issues. Hence, questions on support for affirmative action, sexual habits, or use of hard drugs may be met with responses that do not actually map onto the respondents’ true opinions or behavior, and, what is worse, these non-mapping responses may be systematic. The predicament facing researchers is that, when confronted with these types of questions, respondents have an incentive to be less than truthful in their responses. Hence, for normatively -charged concepts, we might expect observations of the “normatively inferior” option to be underreported. If “everybody knows” what the “right” answer is, and “everybody” includes the respondent, might we not worry that responses will come back disproportionately at what “everybody knows” is right? The dilemma is that, when asking questions whose answers are essentially non-falsifiable, the only thing researchers have going in their favor is a vague social norm to “tell the truth.” 2 Yet disincentives attached to the “wrong” answer – normative sanctions, embarrassment, possible legal trouble – could easily trump whatever satisfaction respondents get from adhering to the social norm despite the discomfort it causes. A Simple Thought Experiment We ignore this problem at our own peril.
    Sensitive Questions – Truthful Responses
    American Political Science Association – Dan Corstange

    One of the ways we mitigate any error is by ensuring that when interviewing two different cells of respondents whose results we intent to compare, is by ensuring the data collection methods is identical. An obviously flaw in this research for example is we are asking Muslims in areas of high Muslim numbers about their views on integration, but we are going somewhere completely different (where potentially there are no Muslims at all) to ask non-Muslims.

    Its getting like Lord of the flies in here. One loud mouthed twat that appears to not even be using that mouth to spout shite, preying on everyone else’s insecurities. Running down a faceless group of people, some of whom no doubt are evil bigoted f**kers, but some of whom probably aren’t.

    You’ve all got access to the internet, so look up a few facts rather than take everything at face value. I’m no ones bitch, so if you think I’m spending the afternoon trawling through the internet to drip feed information, you’re having a laugh. I’m sure you could all find yourselves a cheap flight to Ibiza easily enough so trying Googling ‘sexual attitudes’ rather than ‘cheap sex tourist’ and it might be more rewarding.

    And Eddy, I do not know who or what you are, but if you are in fact a teacher/lecturer or in anyway working with young people, it is a f**king disgrace in view of the hatred you have been spewing on here towards Muslims. That any child should receive any sort of guidance from anyone venting the sort of bile you have to any section of the community is a disgrace. You deserve about as much equality in life as you are prepared to show other people.

  145. I hate ice-cream!
    Makes me realise how much I need a dentist.

    And peanut butter brings me out in lumps, as do all nuts especially them ‘fundamenti’ nuts and worst of all the ‘suoi opinionati’ variety; really stick in me froat, them!

    I come over all queer, with them, I do, and murderous with it too.

    And I haven’t got a telly; spend too much time on here, writing rubbish like this.
    Get yer wallets ready…I’m coming to collect …this thread is rapidly reaching the 200+ I predicted in my #8…
    Just thought I’d inject a little levitas into the gravitas after our dearly loved Sor Maria’s ofertorio…


  146. Sister Mary Clarence..
    “Is that a stroke I see before me….?!”…with aps to Old Bill Shake-it.
    Don’t take on so’s only religion…

  147. Keith, thanks for Comment 142. When I read your posts I read every carefully chosen word. I reckon some people might think it’s all hysterically thrown together but I can see it isn’t. I love it. Take a look at Benjamin Zephaniah’s stuff at:

    You’re already writing stuff as entertaining and as his, Keith. Different them that’s all.


  148. I see the nun has been and gorne, rattled her rosary beads a-furiously and a-wildly, but is still to publish here the “upteen other studies” which she has stated authoritatively reveal the attitudes of Muslims in Britain TODAY to homosexuality!

    She has chosen to try and get away instead with pasting in a great wad of academic text she’s copied from the internet, presumably to have us capitulate to her uninformed point of view.
    Her text at:

    O, would but our good resident Sister only go get herself that visa and plane ticket, go live for a couple of years down beside yon mosque and souk in the heart of some vast Arab city heaving with Muslims and away far from her safe white Christian world . . . and begin to acquire some knowledge.

  149. #146


    Young Edward..thanks for your comments and for the link; I shall watch with glee.
    We’d better be careful tho’…people will start talking…we’ll be an item in a bit…conspiracy theories and all …and that Lucia di Lammermoor dame she’ll be on us case too, soon!

    Anyway, all my rubbish IS just thrown together…I sits and I poises my finger and I writes…it just comes out in torrents…nowt planned…it gets a lot off me chest in me dotage.

    There is just the ONE serious note and that is the kids in all this ‘HYMNS ANCIENT & MODERN.’
    They have not the experience nor the age to realise the utter rot that is force fed down their throats.
    I remember my own childhood and youth…absolutely enthralled with it all, the incense, the robes, the Latin the altar-serving…a would-be martyr for Christ….
    The nuns told us that Mary had demanded the Rosary be said, “The family that prays together, stays together…!” I went and bought a statue of Mary and 4 lots of beads and summarily announced to my mum dad and brother, at 10 years old, that we were henceforth ‘praying the Rosary’..end of, no discussion!

    How, in my own little way…how fundamentalist was that?!

    Only doing the good nuns’ bidding…what I had learnt at school.
    For nuns read crazed mullahs.


    Me dad just went to the pub but he never needed any excuse to do that and looking back, I realise that he too was a poofter but that is another (yawnnnn) story for another (zzzzzzz) day.
    K. to your link…

  150. Jean-Paul 9 May 2009, 7:42pm

    ADRIAN T ((70,91,92):

    ‘We should be encouraging and supporting people….’

    How can you not develop such wisdom after all you’ve been through.

    I understand about Beethoven; perhaps you can put it on your list of ‘Things To Do’, even it’s 20 years from now. But I don’t want to tell you what to do… you’re doing just fine, you rascal.


    J MATHEWS (81):

    Not every Arab is a muslim; not every muslim is an Arab.

    Home-run for you!

    SISTER MARY CLARENCE (85, 90, 116, 117, 118, 128, 143):

    You did it again – you’ve knocked the ball clear over the fence and hit the score board – 7 times !!!!

    More, more, more…!!!!

    ANDY & STEVE (88):

    Right on. I suggest the guillotine be set up in Trafalgar Square!

    ROB FOX (94):

    There you go talking my language again.

    VICTIM (95,109,115):

    You’ve got leadership qualities.

    JOHN K (107,119,122,136,139):

    Right on, as usual, and most clever… female imans, you got it.

    However, I’m afraid I cannot agree with you on your post 122.

    VULPUS_REX (108):

    Enfin, on s’accorde sur un point. Chapeau, mon potte.

    STUART NEYTON (112):

    Such a comfort to know that there are well-balanced individuals on this thread… and that includes YOU.

    FLAPJACK (114):

    Are you my long lost twin brother?

    DARRIEN (114):

    Speaking as an insignificant, misguided and ignorant colonial living in the sheltered sticks somewhere in an isoloted part of Eastern Canada, it has been proven time and time again by professional sociologists that Canadian immigrants take three (3) generations to become canadianized (30 – 40 years).

    The first generation live in ghettos; the second breaks away from ghettos; the third are integrated Canadians. Why? Because we treat them as we would like them to treat us. So simple, yet such a challenge.

    A good example of that, which comes partly from the UK and is available in English, Spanish, Portuguese, Chinese, Japanese, Korean and Thai, is a 91 minute film entitled ‘A Touch of Pink’ recently released by Sony Pictures Classics (www dot sonyclassics dot com, or through Amazon dot com) starring Suleka Mathew and a great looking ‘peaches and cream’ British actor who I believe is named Kristen Holden-Reid. The movie was written and directed by Ian Iqbal Rashid.

    Totally entertaining, and an excellent tool to teach the UK that rather than taking over the EU and the UK, moslems are more likely to break with their religious and cultural background in favor of the human rights we all value so much.

    It just takes three generations and an attitude of treating them as we would like them to treat us. But there I go pushing the Golden Rule again.

    You are on the right track.


    The dolorous atmosphere you two create on PinkNews has brought me to the following suggestion:

    Why don’t you stop posting on PinkNews and start a blog of your own? I even have a suggestion for what you can call it:


    Not only that, I also suggest an initiation rite for anyone who would care to post a comment on your ‘wise choice of attitudes’: he, she, it or they would have to speed on the busiest highway in the UK looking only at the rear view mirror… no cheating now.

    On the off chance that they survive their initiation, the first thing they would be force-fed is how to be a fundamentalist atheist.

    There are atheists, and there are fundamentalist atheists, right? There are agnostics, and their are fundamentalist agnostics, right? There are Jews, and there are fudamentalist Jews, right? Get the picture?

    By the way, Eddy, you signed your post 99 as ‘Geoff’. We have an alter-ego do we, or am I just being a phychoticphobe?

    As for accepting my apology; sorry, too little, too late. You answered 2 out of my 17 comments on post 96. As an educated ‘young’ man, how would you evaluate that : 2/17 = ?????

    Why don’t you follow your own advice and speak plainly and honestly by telling this ‘naïve and gentle little flower’ to f*ck off?

    You can answer this post if you so feel inclined to do, but you can rest assured that I have not the slightest intention of reading or responding to your posts ever again, not ever, ever, ever. Is that clear?

    If not, what about this: FUCK OFF!

    That way the rest of us, including RobN, would feel free to post on these interesting threads without the threat of your persistent personality persecutions which you attempt to pass off as reasoning plain talk and brutal honesty.

    Allow me to repeat: FUCK OFF!

  151. Que…?

  152. I tell’t thee, EDDY, we’d be an item…!
    (Still laffin…tho’)

  153. Just reading through some of these recent threads . . .

    Bravo for pushing them onwards towards 300

    But . . . O dear . . . for some people . . . Mr and Mrs reason has deteriorated hasn’t it

    I admit it . . . I have lapsed as well into some hysteria these last few days . . . for which I apologise . . .

    That’s why I appeal that we hold onto our dear Sister Mary Clarence’s request that we do not demonize all Muslims

    I reassert Adrian T’s previous, but now lost thread that the good works of our liberal UK Muslims is often neglected.

    Lets condemn with righteous anger incitement to hatred and murder . . . but . . .
    Lets not lose sight of those Muslims who want to embrace a liberal, secular humanity and democracy.

  154. Obviously 300 . . . was just a Freudian slip and a wish fulfilment on my part.

  155. Mihangel apYrs 10 May 2009, 12:37am

    Sister MC I am Islamopobic in that I do fear Islam, or at least its recent implementation – the prohobition tied into primitive sahria law. These people would KILL us in the same way that they kill our brothers elsewhere.

    Through the Muslim Council the sharia supporting, self-appointed repreentatives of muslims have privileged access and are consulted too frequently by the establishment, they do influence policy.

    I’m sorry, but these people don;t just talk about our deaths, they will actively work to establish a state in which it will happen

  156. Mihangel ap Yrs (154):

    As Charlene pointed out to us before on another thread, LGBT persons living securely in a peaceful part of the world are very fortunate. As far as I know, except for the occasional and unmistakable undercurrent of homo and transphobia, I am one of those fortunate persons, and I have always felt humbled by the fact that I’ve done so little to deserve it.

    Regarding your comment, would you mind if I made simple and harmless comments, although to be fair I must warn you that I am sometimes inclined to babble on?

    First, is Islammophobia not easily confused with xenophobia? And is xenophobia not sometimes found in island mentalities? or in a conquered population like we Acadians?

    Then again, as a forward-thinking, intelligent and devoted person, would you not agree that fighting for a cause which you believe to be just, in other words, being an activist, has its ups and downs, and is overall a risky enterprise in the first place?

    Let me give you an example, and I will try to be brief.

    Harvey Milk. He was powerful, charismatic, compassionate and gay. After eleven months in office he was assasinated.

    In 1984, an 88 minute documentary film by Rob Epstein and Richard Schmiechen, which is part of a 3-hour-special ’20th Anniversary Collector’s Edition’, and an Academy Award Winner, Best Documentary Feature narrated by Harvey Fierstein (star of the superb American gay film entitled ‘Torch Song Trilogy’ which co-stared Ann Bancroft), and which contains every scrap of live footage available on Milk, Harvey is shown at one point, wearing a plain white oversized T-shirt and sweating in the heat of his San Francisco kitchen, reading his last will and testament into a recording video apparatus set upon his campy chrome-legged kitchen table.

    To cut as closely to the bone as possible, Harvey basically admits that fighting for justice, as Martin Luther King had done, brings a certain amount of risks, not only in the form of rational and not-so-rational debates which may deflect one’s intentions, but also in the form of a distinct possibility of being killed at any moment, either in private or in public.

    Harvey Milk can be called many things, but I have never heard him called neither a fundamentalist extremist nor a coward.

    What you say is true: ‘These people would KILL us in the same way that they kill our brothers elsewhere’.

    To transpose your comment: Drunken drivers may KILL us in the same way that they kill our brothers (and sisters) elsewhere.

    Dying is not a pleasant subject, and few of us feel comfortable with the eventuality of our own death, yet it can happen at any moment, any moment, even as we lie securely in our beds in the middle of the night when an unexpected earthquake brings the ceiling crashing down on us. Some die young, very young, old or very old… we all die. It is part of our journey.

    Listen to me pontificating again.

    My point is that I agree with the Dalai Lama ‘Ethics for a New Millenium’, a 3 hour CD collection produced in 1999 by Simon & Schuster AUDIO and narrated by B.D. Wong, that our hope for the future lies in treating others as we ourselves would like to be treated. Isn’t that what Martin Luther King did? Ghandhi? Albert Schweitzer? Harvey Milk?

    Furthermore has it ever occured to anyone that muslims may be europhobic, anglophobic, canadianphobic, americanphobic and that they too may be afraid to be KILLED at any moment just as we kill their brothers and sisters elsewhere?

    On the off chance that’s there a grain of truth in that assumption, would the muslims not be inclined to re-define their attitudes if they were treated as we ourselves would like to be treated, even if it means running the risk of being killed?

    There are scholarly muslims, ordinary muslims and fundamentalist muslims. There are scholarly atheists, ordinary atheists and fundamentalist atheists. There are scholarly hindus, ordinary hindus and fundamentalist hindus, etc. And of course, to respect the complexity of the human brain, we are all made up of a different combination of at least those three elements.

    Fortunately,we all have something in common: we are all inhabitants of this space ship we call Earth, and which is in the process of being destroyed even as we live and breathe at this very moment.

    Now, there’s a cause for justice that I would be willing to die for, for the sake of the future generations who will find it rather difficult to admire us because we were too busy fighting among ourselves to give a moment’s thought to the future of the most beautiful planet known in our entire and expanding univers.

    Zero tolerance for homosexuality?

    What do you expect muslims to reply to the question: ‘How do you feel about homosexuality?’ when they know in their heart of hearts that their opinion is being recorded and they have to return to live among members of their faith community, a community which more often than not offers lip service to the koran just as christians, to the bible; and jews, to the torah?

    What kind of a blithering simpleton would even think of asking such a question to a muslim?

    Only an anarchist, someone who not only ignores but has nothing but contempt for the Golden Rule or is not in control of himself/herself because of some debilitating mental illness which does not respond to conventional treatment of the very best kind available, and which can be aggravated by ingested matter or liquid, not to mention the various forms of opium and other chemicals, natural or artificial.

    Actually, it is quite similar to asking gays why they do not hold hands in public, isn’t it?

    How many times have you seen a straight couple being affectionate in public and saying to yourself: ‘Why don’t they just go to a motel?’

    This is what it is, my opinion. As usual, and according to a lesson my life’s experience has taught me (I will be 65 in June), my opinion can and should evolve as I surely hope it does to confront the most recent threat to humanity: falling junk from space.

    Warm regards

  157. Jean-Paul wrote
    “Zero tolerance for homosexuality?
    What do you expect muslims to reply to the question: ‘How do you feel about homosexuality?’ when they know in their heart of hearts that their opinion is being recorded and they have to return to live among members of their faith community, a community which more often than not offers lip service to the koran just as christians, to the bible; and jews, to the torah?
    What kind of a blithering simpleton would even think of asking such a question to a muslim?”

    Jean-Paul this is a very interesting issue you are raising. You have split my response on this . . .

    . . . I agree that how you word a question will have an impact on the response, and so one needs to think very careful about what it is you are trying to identify or rather operationalise. There is no question (avoid the pun) that questionnaire/interview design is complex and convoluted and requires skill.
    . . . Another issue comes up for me with regards to this, which is what you can and cannot say to people. If there are some things you cannot say, this always leads me to think why cannot we ask that question. . . in this context of accountability or perhaps lip service to a particular faith community I agree this could set up an inherent bias.

    This does raise the question of how free individual are to think for themselves, complicated obviously in relation to the paranoia of being found out to deviate from a set of rules which you do not fully agree with; but do not want to be disloyal to ( be it a particular community or set of beliefs, what ever)

    The problem I have with this idea of commitment to an authority or a community comes in light of the classic experimental research by Milgram into obedience. In a nutshell, that ordinary people under submission to an authority will commitment mindless acts of violence and murder, even though they are not sadists, murders or criminals.

    Hopefully this will open up the complexity which I think you are trying to raise.

  158. There seems to be amongst some posters here an unfathomable desire to believe that if all those questioned in the cited poll were questioned in some unrealistically “unthreatening” and comforting manner then all of them, or a good number of them, would put aside all the well-known much-published frequently-announced ordinances of current Islam and its imams as to homosexuality and that they would eagerly whisper to their interviewers that they sincerely approve of homosexuality and for equality for gays and lesbians.

    This puts me in mind of an evening at the theatre with a good friend of mine. A third friend had unfortunately had to drop out so a young man, whom we didn’t know too well, from a Central London publishing company came along in his place. The play was a play that exposes the unhappiness amongst a very wealthy upper-middle class group of people living between a pile in the countryside and the lights of London in 1930s England. The play began and after several scenes on walked one of the lead characters for the first time – played by a very black actor of Afro-Caribbean background who despite his attempts could not conceal his Sarf London accent. The inappropriate accent aside, during the interval my friend and I remarked how the director’s decision to kindly give work to a black actor distinctly ruined the intention of the play (there had of course been no re-working of the classic text so that this very black son should have a reason to exist in the family and in milieu of the play). The third member of our group then said, “Black? Was he black? I honestly didn’t notice.” He sought to appear completely sincere and after the play had ended continued to maintain that he had not noticed throughout the rest of the play, with this character on-stage nearly all of the time, that he had been black.

    A similar dynamic is going on in the minds of anyone who wishes to believe that if Muslims are only questioned in “the right way” then most of them, many of them, or even all of them will say with complete sincerity that they approve of homosexuality.

    It is simply a refusal to acknowledge reality – probably for fear of not appearing to be “politically correct”.

  159. John K (156):

    You have no idea how much I appreciate the finesse with which you have taken the time to respond to my last post.

    If we can agree to journey together for a few moments towards the discovery of an unknown aspect of life, which is something you seem perfectly capable of doing, then I would reply in the following way.

    Perhaps I should have said: Is xenophobia not found in a conquered or threatened population like we Acadians.

    Furthermore, I do not appear to have impressed you with my comment on Harvey Milk’s acknowledgement that fighting for justice is a precarious enterprise, or that drunken drivers, or perfectly sober ones for that matter, can just as easily kill us as persons all over the world.

    You take up my comment from its relevance to the issue at hand: Zero tolerance for homosexuality, and you resume my thoughts about the issue in a most flattering way.

    Is the fear of being killed more or less the same as the fear of dying? To put it in a more classic form:

    ‘To be, or not to be; that is the question.’

    Has Shakespeare put you to sleep, or shall I go on?

    Regardless of who we are, of what we believe or disbelieve, we are made in such a way that we are not fulfilled unless we have a dream, a dream for which we are prepared to fight and perhaps to die.

    ‘Breaths there a man with soul so dead who never to himself hath said: this is my home, my native land…’ -Sir Walter Scott

    More poetry… yawn.

    It has been said, for example, that a person without a dream is basically disenchanted with life.

    Unfortunately, I am not familiar with the classic experimental research of Milgram. However, if I have understood you correctly, you are saying that human beings can be fulfilled by a negative as well as a positive dream.

    I cannot argue with that any more than I can argue with the fact that there are positive and negative aspects in the human experience, since time immemorial to the day when the sun will dry up our lovely blue planet.

    Yes, there exists both negative and positive forces in our world. There sometimes appears to be a third force, one that does not lean either way, whether we call it apathy or trancesdence.

    It may have something to do with the chemical make-up of the human brain that inclines some of us to be attracted by one or the other of these forces.

    As you say, we are complex creatures. We can even switch from a negative to a positive dream depending on our circumstances, and vice versa.

    Finally, you know me well enough to recognize the fact that I am more of an academic than an activist, and that does not necessarily mean that I have never been faced down in reality, or that I will never again be faced down in reality as so often typically happen to a human being as he/she ages.

    Life will forever remain a mystery to me. All that I can do is attempt to live comfortably with the mystery rather than allow fear to rule my most limited mind and actions.

  160. Jean-Paul, thanks for your contributions, as ever.

    You wrote (Comment 155): “we all have something in common: we are all inhabitants of this space ship we call Earth, and which is in the process of being destroyed even as we live and breathe at this very moment.” Very true, J-P, very true. And unfortunately I can see that even as this planet gasps its last, individuals whose minds are programmed completely differently will fail to put their radical differences aside and pull entirely together. That failure may well be the final proof of the danger of the obsessive delusion which is religion. Of course, I acknowledge that there are others who prefer to believe that just as the last gasp comes people WILL gracefully put aside those extremist beliefs that have been inculcated in them since the cradle and reach out and embrace their fellow men and women in a stupendously magical way that will save us all from doom and lead us all on into a world of glorious spring-time redemption. I don’t, as Americans like to say, “buy” that particular vision.

    With regard to your question, Jean-Paul, “has it ever occurred to anyone that Muslims [living in Western countries]. . . may be afraid to be KILLED at any moment just as we kill their brothers and sisters elsewhere?” my reply is that your question seeks to push a possibility to an incredible and, quite frankly, a ridiculous equation. You may not wish to accept this information from me but I can assure you as one who has lived and worked for many years in Muslim countries that Muslims (and practically everybody outside of these British shores) regards the UK as being an extraordinarily welcoming and tolerant society where everyone can be who they like, where idiosyncrasy, nay even eccentricity, is held aloft as a virtue. Of course, at the same time, many Muslims, in particular, regard Britain as a place SO free and open-armed that it is a place swimming with sin and corruption – not that they feel that that means there isn’t room for them in it too, if only as missionaries who may clean everything up according to the tenets of their particular faith. And please be reminded that at the edge of the European Union are thousands of people from other countries desperate to make their way not just INTO the EU but ACROSS the EU and onto this very island. (Surely you have read of the camps along the shores of France, full of migrants looking for a chance to cling to the underside of a lorry or train and get through to the UK, or of the gun-boats recently assigned to those Greek Islands rather uncomfortably close to Turkey to protect them from the continual invasion of illegal migrants from the Middle East, Asia, and Africa?) I am advising you, in other words, Jean-Paul, that you will be hard-pressed to find a Muslim, or person of any other non-Christian faith, in Britain living in fear of his or her life. Even immediately after the London Bombings, hardly a reprisal took place.

    You ask, “What do you expect Muslims to reply to the question: ‘How do you feel about homosexuality?'” and then you state “Actually, it is quite similar to asking gays why they do not hold hands in public, isn’t it?”. No, Jean-Paul, these two questions do NOT equate at all. Let us imagine that the first question was asked in the manner that some posters here have imagined, that the Muslims who were questioned were questioned live in their front-rooms and right in front of every glowering member of their extended families. To equate the hand-holding question to gay men and women with this worst-possible Muslim-interview scenario you would have to posit that they each gay man or woman asked the question in front of a roomful of the most extremist gay activists on the planet, as well as being gay activists who they fear, i.e. a roomful of intolerant gay activists who never shirk from openly holding hands with a gay man or woman in public and will reprimand any gay man or woman who does not similarly do so. NOW you have two situations which equate. And we find the analogy invalid.

  161. John K, hi, you wrote: “Let’s not lose sight of those Muslims who want to embrace a liberal, secular humanity and democracy.” Indeed! I agree totally. They do exist. And they must be given every encouragement. They are extremely brave individuals.

    Jean-Paul, you wrote (in Comment 149): “Speaking as an insignificant, misguided and ignorant colonial living in the sheltered sticks somewhere in an isolated part of Eastern Canada . . .” J-P, this really is such patently and transparently false modesty. Prefacing statements in this very American Dale Carnegie manner, does NOT then permit you to proceed with saying some of the things you do. Here’s a bit of honest feedback for you: you appear to wish to play the role of some loveable daffy old wizard with beneficent smile, all in white, in a Disney-world movie, loved and adored by all including big cuddly wide-eyed bunnies and pairs of cooing doves! If I were you I would just attend to your rationality and logic. At the same time, however, I am glad to have witnessed for the first time from utterances from your gut – all those repeated “FUCK OFFs” you have uttered. Gooooooooooood! More of that and less of the daffy old wizard.

    Keith! (148) You wrote: “We’d better be careful tho’…people will start talking…we’ll be an item in a bit…” Hee, hee, hee! And out of our union, Keith, there shall come dozens and dozens of BABIES in our image! Spawn of Bealzebub all? :-) Or nature’s most enlightened children? (Now wait for a possible deluge of suggestions from other readers!)

    Mihangel apYrs, sut mae. You wrote: “I’m sorry, but these people don’t just talk about our deaths, they will actively work to establish a state in which it will happen.” Good to hear you state it. It’s a fact. Remember “The Muslim Paliament of Great Britain”? (Isn’t it extraordinary how people selectly FORGET – in order to feel presently comfortable!) And may I suggest we change the “will actively work” to “are actively working”?

  162. +

    I have adopted a zero tolerance for the ignorance of religion.


  163. Comments 156 Jean-Paul, Eddy 157, 159, 160
    Sorry for this brief response to your threads . . . but just to say I am still thinking about what you have both written and need more time to crystallize my thoughts into a coherent sentence . . . I am hoping for something soon

    . . . however two things come to mind.

    Being an activist . . . double edged. Using the sword to cut, carve and dissect things, but always the imminent danger of falling on and dieing by the sword . . . as in Jean-Paul’s example. Always betwixt and between and in danger from either side . . . a tricky position. So perhaps we can expect the trickster archetype to be ever present. . . or rather there is no mediation room on the battle field.

    Which leads me to how can we get a balance when on one hand, there are Muslims who want to embrace democracy, liberalism and secular values; and they are extremist Muslims in branches of Islam such as Deobanism and Wahhabism who want Sharia law, Sharia state, Sharia with everything. . .and as Eddy points out . . . basically this means death to gays.

  164. EDDY #160

    I’ll get a chance to do me Gene Kelly party piece…
    Luv a good deluge!…but we wont’ go down that route.

    Meanwhile, a “daffy old wizzard..” – tell’t us ter ‘ave ‘sex, off int’t’distance..’…

    Ever obedient..

    K is for Keith..
    ..and it is also for Kennel and Ketchup and Kite, King, Kurry, Kebab…and…….Knickers…!
    My prediction for 200+ on this thread is a-comin’ on nicely…

  165. Mihangel ap Yrs (154):

    This is simply to let you know that I have carefully re-read your post 154. I believe I have over-reacted to your first paragraph thereby preventing myself from understanding that the real meat and bones of your post was in your second paragraph.

    So now, I would like to comment on the essential message of your post.

    In your secong paragraph, you write:’…sharia self-appointed representatives of muslims have priviledged access and are far too frequently consulted by the establishment, they do influence policy.’

    Having given that some thought, I cannot help but ask myself why that is so. Why are religious groups consulted by the establishment, and why do they have such influence on policy?

    Am I to understand, for example, that religious groups pay taxes in the UK?

    When I think further about this unfamiliar political phenomena, I remember what a friend of mine told me recently about why the Wolfendon Report did not necessarily guarantee LGBT rights in the UK. The Report was passed by parliament ‘on condition’ that equal rights be given to every secular and/or religious group. In that case, any attempt to advance the causes of one sector of society can be prevented by the attempt of the other sector to maintain and re-inforce the status quo and even to regress. Am I anywhere near being correct, Sister Mary Clarence?

    Presuming that I have correctly understood why the Wolfendon Report has not brought the guarantee of equal rights to the LGBT population of GB because the establishment has given ‘blanket equal rights’ to all factions in British society, who would have demanded these equal rights on the part of religious groups but the C of E itself?

    Before I go on, you must understand that political science has never been my forte. In fact, I distinctly remember reading Dick Tracy comic books during political science class and handing in a blank sheet of paper with my name on it at the final examination!

    The previous assumption, on the off chance that it contains a grain of truth, could only be correct in a political system in which politics and religion are integrated under the one and only leader of the Nation.

    By contrast, here in Canada, religious institutions sre considered as charitable institutions and are therefore exempt from paying a substantial amount of taxes. Also, these same religious institution run the risk of losing their tax exemption status in the event that they ‘meddle’ too persistently and too deeply in the country’s political, economic, social, etc. policies. The only option legally available to them is lobbying the MP’s and attempting to endoctrinate the voting citizens of their religious communities; citizens who in my experience usually turn a deaf ear to any political insinuations made from a pulpit.

    Obviously, if you have been following my train of thought, blanket equal rights to secular and religious groups is a self- defeating form of democracy primarily because these two groups so often operate on different pitch-pipes so that any kind of harmony is difficult to expect from the House of Commons, let alone the House of Lords which I believe includes as many as 26 bishops.

    To get back to your point, if representatives of sharia law do have official influence on British policies, I can finally understand why your so-called Islamophobia is not at all a good example of xenophobia, which was one of the points I was attempting to make in my post 155.

    See how the brain evolves, even in feeble-minded persons such as myself.

    Finally, the fearsome influence the UK is facing by the immigration of members of a, shall we say ‘new’ religious group hostile to western customs, can only be kept in check by the separation of Church and State which will be more challenging to religious institutions and more favorable to secular ones.

    Also, I understand that the threat comes primarily from first generation immigrants.

    Sory to have taken p so much of your time to say so little you didn’t already know.

  166. Sister Mary Clarence 10 May 2009, 5:35pm

    Taking a look at the poll below of British born Muslims could any of the polling gurus on here, so happy to accept this Gallup Coexist polling explain how the fuck they managed to get the following results?

    If your son/daughter came out as gay, would you accept them?

    Yes – 1487 (98%)
    No – 24 (2%)

    Do you think homosexuals should be stoned to death?

    Yes – 12 (1%)
    No – 1467 (97%)
    Punished in some other way – 33 (2%)

    Were the sampling robust and the methodlogy sound they logically would have picked up British born Muslim respondents, and clearly from this poll (which I’m guessing was conducted online) the results suggest that they at least hold slightly more liberal views

  167. Ah, she’s back! I thought that maybe Sister had somehow managed to ensconce herself in downtown Tehran or even Cairo and was up to her neck in gettin’ to know the local lads! But, no, unless she’s already got herself computer-connected, she appears not to be doing her own field research.

    She is of course STILL to publish HERE her “upteen other studies” which authoritatively reveal the attitudes of Muslims in Britain TODAY to homosexuality.

    Prevarication won’t do, Sister. YOU MADE A CLAIM. You need to either present your evidence or withdraw the claim.

  168. Sister Mary Clarence 10 May 2009, 5:52pm

    Thank you for your kinds words (as is often the case Jean-Paul). I see you seem to have crossed Eddy for some reason only he knows now as well.

    His lynch mob seems to be dispersing now, so time for everyone to put all the mindless hate back in the cupboard for a while.

    I remain unclear why I’m supposed to trot off to some nameless Muslim state for a field trip to research then opinions of British Muslims according to Eddy. But of course, he knows best, I’m sure.

  169. Sister Mary Clarence 10 May 2009, 5:56pm

    Ok Eddy, lets just focus on the one I have provided a link to. Can you explain how this survey found pecentages in the high nineties supportive of homosexual issues, and yet the Gallup Coexist project found zero percent?

    No point in my dragging up any more until we identify that you can actually use any of the information first.

    Please also try to actually directly answer the question. I’m not trying to trick you or get one over on you. I’d just like to see what your thoughts are on the enormous variance.

  170. Sister Mary Clarence 10 May 2009, 6:00pm

    By the way, Eddy, according to the National Office of Statistics website, 50% of the UK Muslim population is British born.

  171. Sister Mary Clarence 10 May 2009, 6:05pm

    Apologies, also, just noted that the poll was street interviews, not internet.

  172. Bill Perdue 10 May 2009, 6:24pm

    Religion and empire building are the main enemies of humankind. Religion, it’s been said, is humankind’s worst self inflicted wound. Combine it with the racism of empire builders and advanced weapons and you’ve got a recipe for disaster. The sky gods were invoked to bless both sides during the world wars as 97,000,000 died. They were on the side of the roman cult when it launched the crusades and the christer sky gawd blessed the armies that murdered roughly 200,000 muslims in Bosnia Herzegovina a decade ago.

    That figure, awful as it is, pales in comparison to the death toll in Iraq at the hands of the US, its allies and satellite states. Nearly one and a quarter million have been killed for the real gods, Haliburton, Chevron/Texaco.

    The ruthless and incessant attacks by the US in south Asia from Palestine to Pakistan are the backdrop for the growing hostility of people from muslim cultures and the sharp increase in the ability of rightwing islamists to find scapegoats in the GLBT communities. They want to direct the legitimate rage of muslims to easier targets instead of taking on more dangerous culprits like the US oil companies and the politicians on their payroll.

    In self defense we should ramp up our opposition to Washington’s oil war and mount a campaign that takes on mendacious hustlers like Obama, Bush, Cameron who are the real enemies of real enemies of muslims and working people. Our job is to oppose the wars of the imperial oil barons and fight the attempt to scapegoat our communities by bigoted islamist leaders.

    The question of how much islamophobic racism exists in the EU, Canada and the US was answered in this and similar discussions at North American blog sites. It’s very high and has the same origins as other forms of bigotry like racism, national chauvinism, misogyny and etc.

    It’s pretty sick stuff and in my opinion it’s not worth arguing with islamophobic bigots. They’re mentally ill. They need medical treatment.

  173. Sister Mary Clarence 10 May 2009, 6:26pm

    ooh, Holy Mary Mother of God, on the last last night with the communion wine – forgot to post the link:

  174. Sister Mary Clarence 10 May 2009, 6:27pm

    oops – there I go again …. ‘out on the lash’

  175. Flippin’ heck, Sister, you’re not “trying to trick [me] or get one over on [me]”?

    Are you used to dealing with idiots? Do you usually manage to get away with trickery and getting one over on people?

    You DARE to say “Ok Eddy, let’s just focus on the one I have provided a link to”. NO, Sister, you don’t get away with that, sweetie. YOU MADE A CLAIM. You said there are umpteen other studies which authoritatively reveal the attitudes of Muslims in Britain TODAY to homosexuality. Either present a good number of that vast list of UMPTEEN such surveys, or RETRACT your claim. You don’t get away with burying your claim and focussing on some item of your choice.

    You aren’t trying to trick me or get one over on me? For fuck’s sake, you so TRANSPARENTLY are, girl!

    You say you have provided a link. Is your work normally as shoddy as this, Sister? You have NOT provided a link. GO LOOK! And DON’T come back with feeble excuses. And anyway, one link from you won’t do. I’ll choose which link of yours I will examine, thank you very much, AFTER you have provided a good deal of your UMPTEEN links to studies which you have said authoritatively reveal the attitudes of Muslims in Britain TODAY to homosexuality.

    As for your post (169) wherein you advise me “by the way” that 50% of the UK Muslim population is British-born, . . . have you got your knickers in a twist again, dearie? I’ve never suggested otherwise. I don’t believe I have participated in any debate as to what percentage of the UK Muslim population is British-born or not.

    I’m getting fed up with you, Sister. You’re a pretender. Deaf to that which you do not wish to hear or accept for reasons only known to yourself.

    I suggest you go have another go at greasing up to the daffy but loveable Wizard du Canada!

  176. Bill Perdue 10 May 2009, 6:36pm

    Twisted Sister, aka SMC, has always been an opponent of asylum for Iranian and Iraqi GLBT folks fleeing torture and death. Twisted Sister, a spokemodel for the racist islamopobes who run the Tories has the dubious distinction of having only a slightly less racist and islamophobe position on asylum than Jacqui Smith.

    Twisted Sister is not position to criticize anyone about racist islamophobia.

  177. Sister Mary Clarence 10 May 2009, 6:48pm

    Eddy, you’ve got the link, you’ve got the data, I’ve not got a response. Stop squirming like a twat and offer some explanation of the variance please.

  178. EDDY
    ….we were both advised, by the Wizard of Acadia to start a blog of our own; the other exhortation was to ‘engage in sex, distantly.’
    So ‘ok’ Wiz,..Will-co.

    How does one set up a blog?

    Something has just occurred to me, nowt to do with this Muslim mullarkey, of which I am now heartily sick to the mammaries.

    It would not be appropriate to take up a space on here, a thread dealing with mad mullahs (yeah, I know…it never stoppped me B4..!)
    It is do with fundy (but really shouldn’t be)Benedict and Camparari; the two are synonymous in my small brain.

  179. Sister Mary Clarence 10 May 2009, 7:39pm

    Come out, come out, wherever you are Eddy. You’ve been here tirelessly the last day or two to set everybody straight if they’re thinking wrongly and being a bad homosexual, and now you’ve gone quiet. I genuinely feel like I’ve just lost a leg or something (apologies for the bad taste if there is anyone who has just lost a leg of course!)

    So …. Eddy, I was asked for some examples and against my better judgement I’ve dug a few up. Thought we could talk about this one first because the results were so incredibly interesting once we have been able to chew this one over we can move on to some more but I have asked for your initial comments … so in your own good time ….

    By the way that stats on the percentages of British born Muslims was supposed to be helpful (though you chose to throw if back in my face). I didn’t want you to go off on some tangent believing that the number of British born Muslims was relatively low. You might want to be slightly less ungrateful in future (or maybe not).


    Just thought of that!
    How juvenile!!
    So sorry, everybody.!!
    I’ve got bored with it all now peepls..
    It’s doin’ me ‘ead in all this high falootin’ shite!!
    Bye all..
    K…………………………..(Tune: The Campbells are coming.)

  181. Must get out more…

  182. Nurse..!

  183. Entertaining though Billy Bolshevik’s rants are, it would be helpful if he could stick to the topic in question. We should however, be grateful, that at least he has not tried to pin the blame for the lack of tolerance for us from the Religion of Peace on either Queen Victoria or Oliver Cromwell. Still, plenty of time yet and he has managed to confuse (as always) criticism of islam with racism.

  184. One thing that bothers me in a lot of this discussion is the underlying assumption (by some) that Western values are so weak that they’ll be easily dominated by a ‘strong’ Muslim ideology. I just don’t buy that argument. If one uses London as an example, it has had countless waves of immigration from around the world – and some of those people have been virulently intolerant of other people’s beliefs and lifestyles.
    But ultimately, they’ve assimilated. In the 1950s the West Indians who came over were regularly greeted with the ‘No Dogs. No Irish. No Blacks’ signs on hostels and pubs and the idea of the races mixing was still the preserve of lunatics. Sometime in the next five years, there will be more mixed race children born in London than any ‘pure’ race. This kind of mixing is increasingly being replicated in the various Asian communities. And all the time that this has been happening, Britain in general has become more permissive and liberal. Things that would have been regarded as outrageous, disgusting and unnatural even just 30 years ago frequently pass without comment these days.

    The statement Jean-Paul made above about assimilation of immigrants taking three generations is highly pertinent. Inevitably the number of Muslims in the country is going to have an impact on British culture, but it’s a two-way street. To receive the tolerance and access to mainstream community, immigrants have to give tolerance and access to their communities. It’s not a fast process, but that process does happen. I’m no misty-eyed fantasist who thinks we have no racial problems in this country, but I’ll be damned before I spent my life in my own country in a state of fear because someone else has a different political or religious philosophy.

  185. Jean-Paul: “That way the rest of us, including RobN, would feel free to post on these interesting threads without the threat of your persistent personality persecutions which you attempt to pass off as reasoning plain talk and brutal honesty.
    Allow me to repeat: F–K OFF!”

    Eddy: I second that. You are an irritating, s–t-stirring little twat. Go back to freaking out Muslims in Tesco’s and leave the rest of us to have sensible, balanced and thought through conversations.
    To paraphrase Jean-Paul: FUCK OFF!

  186. Sister Mary Clarence 10 May 2009, 11:31pm

    Thank you for a bit of sanity on the subject Darrien. I think the recent poll of British born Muslins shows that very point, though again I don’t think it shuld be fully taken at face value, it nevertheless shows that some elements of the permissive West’s views have been enbranced by second and third generations.

    Nice to hear from you again too Luke!!!!!

  187. I would welcome some input from or the Quilliam Foundation frankly. In fact I suggest they get in touch wit PN and offer an opinion piece.

    What are we doing to make people from ethnic minorities better understand LGBT people and the subject of homosexuality?

    What specific actions are the government and other community bodies undertaking to provide support, and if necessary, protection for LGBT people from ethnic minorities?

    What proportion of the muslim community can be called ‘liberal’? (There may be issues about the methodologies but the stats on support for Sharia among UK muslims from a few years ago look awful, SMC)

    How are we going to root out extremism and what should we be doing to promote the acceptance of liberal, democratic values within the muslim community?

    That’s really where the debate needs to be headed.

  188. CHAPEAU (162):

    ‘I have adopted a zero tolerance for the ignorance of religion.’

    Now don’t you go taking this the wrong way, but as an amateur of post-modern philosophy (I don’t believe there will ever be an expert on the subject!), I have grown fond of ambiguity: visual, audio and/or written.

    Your sentence will be written down in my collection of ambiguous statements because I think it is precious.

    Let me explain. The sentence can mean that you have adopted a zero tolerance for the ignorance inherent in religion, or that you have adopted a zero tolerance for persons who are ignorant of religion.

    Leaving aside the meanings (that’s post-modernism for ya), the ambiguity of this sentence would have taken me weeks, perhaps longer, to compose. And I like it.

    Hats off!

    SISTER MARY CLARENCE (166, 168, 171, 173, 174, 179, 186):

    Cyberspace hug from me to you.

    Since today is Mother’s Day, I am looking for a place to make a comment about the use of the word ‘mother’, and I hope you don’t mind if I stick it in here.

    Besides its most popular usage, the word has been used in the following ways: Mother Earth, Mother Nature, Mother of God, Mother Goose, and let’s not forget Sadaam Hussein’s (remember him?) use of the expression when he called the US the ‘Mother of all battles’.

    The word can also be used as an adjective or an adverb: motherly.

    Happy Mother’s Day, all you mothers!

    Street interviews, of course. How easy is it to target a woman wearing a burgkah (spelling?)?

    Love your spunk.

    LUKE (183):

    Has anyone ever told you that you not only have a head on your shoulders, you also have a skull with an activated brain in it.

    That is meant as an expression of support, not sarcasm.

    DARRIAN (184):

    Flabbergasted! Now there’s a word I haven’t used in along time, but it does express exactly how I felt after reading your post.

    You really do understand what Winston Churchill meant when he said: ‘Democracy may not be the perfect form of government, but it sure comes before whatever is in second place’.

    The power of democracy is well expressed in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, which by the way (bragging…who me?) was mainly composed by a man from New Brunswick, Canada, which is where I was born, where I still live and where I hope to die.

    Thank you also for understanding the three generation thing.

    ROB N (185):

    Welcome home, dear heart. And please feel free to disagree with anyone, including me.

    Just don’t be a stanger, OK?

  189. ARIAN T (187):

    Love your idea, of course.

    However, what you are proposing cannot be achieved without some serious money, perhaps government support.

    And of course, blabber-mouth me has a suggestion or two.

    1) Have a meeting with the UK’s fabulous Transsexuals (performing drag queens) in order to organize a fund-raiser to have Bruce Hilton’s ‘Can Homophobia Be Cured?’ translated into Arabic, and distributed free of charge to muslim immigrants.

    2) Organize a campaign to approach your MP’s ‘en masse’ to have the book translated at the expense of the state and offered, compliments of the UK, to muslim immigrants.

    3) Follow your instinct.

  190. ROB N.


    “…Eddy: I second that. You are an irritating, s–t-stirring little twat. Go back to freaking out Muslims in Tesco’s and leave the rest of us to have sensible, balanced and thought through conversations.
    To paraphrase Jean-Paul: F–K OFF!…”
    Comment by RobN — May 10, 2009 @ 23:29

    Young RobN..!


    I had intended to do just as you, and Signor Grandioso, ask and eff off, since all the long, longg, LONGGG, acres of pompous windbaggery from some on here was getting on my bleedin’ tits, was disturbing my listening to Edita Gruberova as Queen Elizabeth I (final act) in Donizetti’s Roberto Devereux, AND taking my concentration off me HORLICKS which was always getting cold… it’s never nice re-heated.
    All along I have just tried to contribute my view as well as keep it all light and occasionally silly with my rubbish; that apparently doesn’t suit.
    Why is it “irritating Muslims” what I did in Sainsbury’s by my walking in an exaggeratedly camp way in front of Muslims, who were absolutely burka’d and niqab’d up to the max (the women) and their menfolk correspondingly attired in whatever their garments are called?
    They are doing what they want.?
    Can I not?

    Should we all just kowtow and say nowt..?
    Is that not what STONEWALL was all about, making yourself heard, letting it be known that we are not chairs, just to be arranged at the behest of whoever..?
    I exaggerate?
    Shout loudly because the day is coming when, because people are not shouting loudly enough, because there is so much apathy, no-one will be able to walk in a silly way here, if they so choose; or do much else where free choice might be exercised. There won’t be any arse-cheeks and tatooed bare mid-riffs on show, (ladies take note) bacon will be right off the menu and you’ll be on your knees facing east 5 times a day.

    And you will conform or be ‘dealt’ with.

    I jest..?
    Think Nazi Germany.
    Fundamentalism took off in a big way there and that is what is on offer here if we are not on our toes.
    There are not a few on here – and certainly not a few in Manchester – who are HEARTILY sick of feeling alien in this country, heartily sick of all the back-bending, kowtowing done to accomodate these incomers.
    By all means come, but adapt and integrate or go away.
    I am not going to be looked askance at by anyone in Sainsbury’s because of the way I walk.. and MY walk on that occasion in Sainsbury’s, was heavily exaggerated because I do not come across as a mincing fairy, I am not easily pigeon-holed as an ‘old girl’; I am well above 6 foot, built like a brick shit-house, hands like shovels and WELL ABLE to defend myself even at 70. BUT what about those poor lads who are as thin as rakes, mince-a-lot and are obviously Dot’s mates…?
    And as for you and your ..what was it…”thought through sensible conversations’…
    You are having a laugh!
    You want me to eff off?
    Gladly, schnorrer.
    with luvvy.

  191. whereas as jean paul has pointed out and smc has highlighted with the poll she/he dredge up that the reality is that hard line muslim views are actually being eroded. i think the point being made is that people feel the way that you feel keith because they read headlines like poll finds zero tolerance for homosexuality amongst uk muslims. if you read a headline that said 98% of uk muslims would accept a gay son or daughter would you start to think we’re seeing some progress.

    to me this is what alot of this debate is about. how much does the media view of things shape our perceptions of life. research shows (but it doesn’t really) that it shapes it quite a bit.

  192. Sister Mary Clarence 11 May 2009, 10:32am

    Duh-daaaaah – exactly!!! Some people have been happy to overlook the fact that they know a Muslim or Muslims that do not hold extremist views because this poll has shown that they all do.

    So, who do you believe, the media reports of intolerance or your own personal experiences?

  193. Sister Mary Clarence, while you appear to have been breathlessly waiting at your keyboard for a further response from me (instead of locating your umpteen surveys which you have STILL FAILED to list here for us all) I have been living my life: a dinner-party for six last night – at which, by the way, I regaled all ‘n sundry with your stubborn idiocy.

    And you will not like to hear that one of our guests advised I should return here sometime today to suggest to you that you ought buy yourself a large boxed-set of Nana Mouskouri CDs and go live on a desert island . . . “Or”, added another, “tell her to just go live on a desert island and TOTALLY bury her head in the sand”!

    I have however more constructive plans.

  194. I do not drive now; I use public transport.

    Near me is an H.M. Government Reporting Centre, where would-be immigrants/residents have to attend and sign-on.

    I help many a be-burqa’d girl off the bus because she is attending the her off with the pram, the shopping, and her other 2 kids, plus she can hardly see what’s she is doing because of the acres of material covering her face.
    Quite where her husband is, is another question; I thought they were only allowed out with a male relative; anyway, I digress.

    That’s all ok by me.
    But it is not all ok by some..and I shall elucidate in a moment.

    I do not know anything about polls and research this, and MORI that. all goes over my head.
    I see what goes on in the street, while getting on with my daily round.

    To get back to Mrs. Muslim lady on the bus.

    Many is the time when I have got back into my seat and have had comments, from white Mancunians, “I wouldn’t do that! Leave them to get their own bleedin’ prams and brats off the bus, don’t be effin’ encouragin’ ’em..! Sit down yer daft old bugger you’ll get yourself a heart attack..what for..?.for THEM…?”

    Many times, that happens

    And on it goes.
    I am waiting for the ‘green man’ so I can cross the road.
    Burq’d family, religiously clad, dad, 3 kids waiting for the lights, to change…
    “Dress proper, yer scum bag, else get back ‘ome..!
    Followed by a bang on Mr. Muslim’s car.
    Lights change and he shoots off at a rate of knots, visibly shaken.
    I agree with what you say; it is the fundamentalist nonsense on all sides and the view of it whipped up by the media that fuels all this; life on the street is just as much of a grind for poor little muslim girl with pram and kids.
    But the man who had his windscren banged at the traffic lights and his family and was told to “Dress proper…”..?
    He looked typical of the family who looked so askance at me in Sainsbury’s with my silly camp walk.
    Who are they to look askance at anybody..?
    But it is those hard-liners who will prosper here simply because the chattering classes rely so on polls; people on buses don’t know owt about polls and it is they who get fed up and start riots in Toxteth, Oldham…
    And that, STEVE (2) is why I don’t buy papers nor have I ever had a television.
    I watch what goes on around me and listen all the while in Sainsbury’ traffic lights…on buses.
    I get my own news where it happens, on the street, in Longsight and Levenshulme where a white face is an occasion, not some re-gurgitated, agenda-driven, third party cobblers.
    Lovely for those who want it; but it’s not for me.
    I see many a mini-riot aborted just at the last moment on the 192 bus to Piccadilly…the looks, the stares, the “fancy yer chances, ‘wog’..” provocative stances.
    What do polls know about that?
    Where are they?
    Not on any bus I’m on.

  195. # 191.


    “…if you read a headline that said 98% of uk muslims would accept a gay son or daughter would you start to think we’re seeing some progress….”

    No, I would not.
    Not as long as I see them NOT visibly integrating in other ways, such as dress, and them ignoring the mincing walks of any nancy boys they meet..(me in Sainsbury’s..?)
    If they dressed western and were more ‘blending’ that still would not give you any right to assume that their attitudes had changed; their dress may have, but their attitude…?
    How would you know?
    How do you know what they are saying at Friday prayers..?
    I think the dress code is very indicative of the inner conviction…and so I do not need spurious polls or anybody else’s views. My own daily, tiny snapshots of life, tell me everything I want to know.
    Interviewees for such as MORI..?
    I would not give them much credence.
    “Mouths can say owt..”

    Daily goings-on say more.


  196. this zero-tolerance on gays is no surprise. i am muslim but only see anything gay on my computer. for sex I go to a park in the evening. its difficult because most white guys aren’t interested & doing anything with another Paki is dangerous. in two years I will marry. there is no choice. ties in the muslim community where I live in birmingham are so strong.

  197. I seem to remember something from a few months ago in the news about some Muslim cleric calling for the death of all homosexuals? Wasn’t it that Sharia law should be set up in this country not only for those Muslims who follow Sharia but for the good of us all?

  198. Thanks for sharing that with us, ‘s’. Stay around if you can.

    I imagine, leaving Birmingham and breaking family ties would never be an option? Aren’t there any support groups you can turn to (e.g.

    This is what annoys me: we have councils and organisations like Stonewall, trumpeting all these ‘commitments to diversity’ – as if by flying the rainbow flag on a building makes the city a gay utopia… and meanwhile voices like the one above are being ignored.

  199. Pete & Christopher 11 May 2009, 1:06pm

    For years the PC brigade has worshipped at the feet of “inclusivity”. Now Muslims, or so it would seem, have this distorted view that THEIR rights are the only rights worth considering. Why? Refer to Mohammed and read the Koran.

    The Guardian and The Independent, places frequented by confused liberal lefties (including many homosexuals) have encouraged this view of Muslim “rightness”. What a quandary for them and the rest of the liberal left intelligentsia to discover that THEIR rights are not important to those whose rights they have boosted, presumably proudly and hoping for reciprocation.

    It doesn’t seem to have happened, I repeat, if this poll is accurate.

    How long will it take the idealists/idealogues of the Left to understand that it took secular Christians and Jews centuries to embrace the view that human rights were for ALL humans and not just for those who are “like us”?

    How long before they realise that if Muslims DO think homosexuals should not be tolerated, there is a clear conclusion to be drawn:

    That Muslims who do NOT concur with ‘human rights for all’ as they have had it handed to them ABUNDANTLY on a plate in Britain must LEAVE THIS COUNTRY.

    I know that bluntness will not be received well by some. But accepting OUR mores and laws is part of the deal.

    There is NO alternative.

    We have given with the right hand and then with the left. Our hands is what they will bite off next.

  200. Riverside Rob 11 May 2009, 1:12pm

    The Christian Hating Left in this country will be awfully surprised that their beloved “Religion of Peace” is nothing more than Hate instigators.

    The Gay Community in America ( which is almost completely Democratic) needs to get their heads out of the sand regarding the rise of Church ( Mosque ) supported and sanctioned Terror against Gays worldwide. THEY STILL KILL YOU OVER YOUR LIFESTYLE in certain countries!!!!! You CANNOT appease these people through apologies and “dialogue”.

    Hey Limey Muslims!
    Don’t like Trevor and Godfrey at the leather Bar?
    Tough shit 8th century throwback!
    GO back to whatever back water shithole that you crawled out from.

  201. Puss in Boots 11 May 2009, 1:22pm

    There is quite a disparity here between the views of British, French, and German Muslims. Might not the reason be that British Muslims are largely South Asian in descent? That German Muslims are significantly of Turkish and Kurdish heritage? And that French Muslims are overwhelmingly North African in origin? That’s not to say of course that the South Asian UK-Muslim view is in any way acceptable.

  202. PussInBoots isnt it s equally possible that the reason for the disparity has little to do with origins and something to do with massive differences between British, French and German societies? Not all British Muslims are of South Asian origin, you know. Could it not be that most Muslims in Britain somehow pick up on the homophobia of the street, of the areas they live in, and the tabloids they read? Is this not an explanation?

  203. Puss in Boots 11 May 2009, 1:37pm

    Maybe, but whatever … it’s a problem, right?

  204. Wow can I please just add my tuppence-worth to the top Pink story of the week?

    Firstly, the areas which are of great concern to Muslims are those that we (non-Muslims) find contentious anyway, like pornography, abortion, suicide, and extra-marital relations. It’s just that Muslims are even MORE negative about homosexuality than, let’s say our worst Christians and Catholics are! But the point is let’s not forget these issues raise the hackles amongst British whites too!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Secondly, it’s true that no Muslims in the UK found homosexuality to be morally acceptable (though there is a 5% margin of error for Muslims across all the statistics in the report) – so we mustn’t take that “zero” as being like “totally zero”. HOWEVER, their disapproval of homosexuality needs to be viewed in the context that the report also shows that Muslims are more respectful of those different to themselves than the general British public are!!!!!!!!! In other words, UK Muslims may have very very little tolerance of “homosexuality” (or put it another way, practically none at all) BUT the report is talking about homosexuality in THEIR OWN community, in THEIR families etc. Yes, tough for their gay kids, I know, but you see what I mean. They’re not passing judgement on US specifically, right?

    The problem I think we have is that we don’t want a homogenous society, with homogeneous social and moral attitudes (we’ve always been pretty tolerant of differences and diversity here in the UK compared to most other countries), BUT can we tolerate a section of our society causing pain (or worse) to its own gays and lesbians? Isn’t it wrong to do so? We’ve taken a stance against misogynistic murder (“honour killings”) in Islamic families, as well as against female mutilation in another section of immigrants, so why not also against the denial of gay rights to young people in Islamic families?

  205. Sister Mary Clarence 11 May 2009, 4:48pm

    Ah Eddy, still side stepping the question I see. now you’re back from your dinner party, can you answer my question. No point in swamping you with masses of information you’re not going to be able to digest all at once. These polls can tell us reams and its best to work through them one by one, rather than pick pieces from multiple data sources simultaneously. Not a good way to work on this type of issue, but here I go again, telling you something you know already no doubt.

    Let’s start with the poll I provided for you. I’m waiting for your comments on the hugely different results.

    It is a good poll to start the discussion on I’m sure you’ll agree and using your knowledge and experience of all things Muslim, it would be really helpful if you could share with everyone why there is such a difference in the views expressed in the two polls.

  206. We need a not-right wing movement that will limit muslim immigration untill muslims understand democracy.

  207. ROB N ((190):

    Look, I do not like people giving me advise from the peanut gallery and I do not want you to do differently, so you can listen to me or not, OK.

    But and however, do you not know how to ignore certain despicable persons?

    Let me tell you what I do, and then you can work on a version of it for yourself if you want to. Why? Because I want to read your posts, that’s why.

    In fact, I believe you have something to teach this old fart that nobody else can teach me.

    The first thing I do when I see a post, whether it is addressed to me or not, is to find out who sent it in.

    If it is sent in by Keith or Eddy (or Geoff, who is one of Eddy’s other personalities), I just skip over it, and I certainly do not reply to it.

    People will ignore you too, just as people ignore me and others on these posts. C’est la vie.

    Chances are Eddy and Keith will post with new names, if they haven’t already done so because I believe they are both multi-personality pshychotics who are not sick enough to be institutionalized, but not well enough to mix with ordinary people.

    Either that or there is too much camel shit mixed into their hashish.

    My lawyer told me to feel secure in speaking my mind on this matter.

    My point is, you will not be missing anything by ignoring them, or anybody else for that matter, including me.

    I am 65 in June, and, being Acadian, I have suffered most of my life from being overly sensitive. So there!

    STEVE(2) (191):

    Right on, my man!

    SISTER MARY CLARENCE (192, 205):

    Boys-o-boys, can you swing a bat or what!!

    Home run…again !!!!!!

    As for what’s-his-name, you’ve got him down with your foot firmly pressing on his throat. Take an example from him and give him a taste of his own medicin: allow yourself to be a ‘tad’ ruthless!

    S (196):

    Thanks for for your precious input. More please. Don’t be afraid of us. We are harmless, except that I for one am inclined to babble on and on and on…. and no-one ever tells me to shut up!

    Riverside Rob (200):

    Except for your last few lines of ranting, I love your ideas.

    Have you thought of repeating everything you’ve written here to ‘www dot PlanetOut dot com’ in the USA and don’t stop repeating until they acknowledge you and give you an answer. It is a global network, and a very busy website.

    PUSS IN BOOTS (201):

    Interesting, very interesting!

    ANTHONY (202)

    Interesting, very interesting!

  208. Deidre B wrote

    “The problem I think we have is that we don’t want a homogenous society, with homogeneous social and moral attitudes (we’ve always been pretty tolerant of differences and diversity here in the UK compared to most other countries), BUT can we tolerate a section of our society causing pain (or worse) to its own gays and lesbians? Isn’t it wrong to do so? We’ve taken a stance against misogynistic murder (“honour killings”) in Islamic families, as well as against female mutilation in another section of immigrants, so why not also against the denial of gay rights to young people in Islamic families?”

    Deidre I interested in the issue you raise with regards to the denial of gay rights in Islamic families, and it seems like more research is needed to highlight the particular problems LGBT Muslims face.

    It is worth checking out a UK study by Anita Pilgrim into the opression faced by LGBT Muslims

  209. Jean-Paul: The point is, I LIKE the conflict with fuckwits like Eddy and Keith. I was always a big fan of leftie-baiting.

    Oh. As for you being Acadian (?), that’s lucky, coz I was born under Pyrex. (I was a test-tube baby)


  210. Bill Perdue 11 May 2009, 9:47pm

    Lukie and other Tories express the same kind of bigoted opinions about muslims that were spewed out two thousand years ago by Roman bigots as they watched in dismay while peoples from their stolen empire moved into Rome itself, with all their alarming skin colors and cultural differences.

    And they made the same kind of racist comments then that Lukie and others do now.

    This huge influx of foreign cultures had very beneficial effects on Rome. It stirred up and enriched the gene pool then and it’s doing it now in England and the US. But far and away the most beneficial effect of that earlier wave of immigration was that it caused any number of unwanted cerebral and cardiac events among Roman traditionalists and bigots.

    “To knock a thing down, especially if it is cocked at an arrogant angle, is a deep delight of the soul.” Santayana

  211. Sinister Mary Clarence (see her vitriol and her admission that she is a card-carrying Tory in Pink News items of today, Monday 11 May) has still failed to substantiate her claim and produce a list of the “umpteen” other surveys which prove the Gallup Coexist Poll incorrect. She has now had ample time in which to do so.

    To make such a claim knowing that one cannot substantiate it often reveals a lack of integrity. A lack of congruity and intellectual honesty. But one does not expect such qualities from a Tory – and one can particularly not expect integrity from the strange twisted self-hating creature that is a Gay Tory.


    The results of the Gallup Poll hit the media on the 7th of May. That’s FOUR days ago. Note well that it was very very widely reported, not only here in the UK but also abroad, particularly in the light of its finding with regard to the attitude of UK-based Muslims to homosexuality. However, there appears to have been no widespread or single outspoken contradiction of it by UK-based Muslims in that period. There certainly has not, to the best of my knowledge, even been a furious and indignant rejection of its findings by any group of UK-based Muslims.

    Might it be simply because in fact all the published results of the Gallup-Coexist Poll, including its starkest finding – actually reflect the convictions of most UK-based Muslims – who are, of course, involved in heterosexual lifestyles?

    In other words, the Gallup Poll published on 7 May reflects reality pretty accurately. Like it or lump it.


    It has occurred to me to see what users of the Imaan (gay Muslim) website might have said about the matter in the last four days on their own Forum – particularly as Imaan members are generally young thinking Muslims, many of them students.

    But, unfortunately, even THERE, amongst UK-based gay Muslims, I have found no disputing of the Poll. No refuting of its findings whatsoever. And I have searched every thread within the entire Forum. The subject of the finding of the Gallup poll goes completely unspoken. Clearly it is a fact of life for all UK-based Muslims. They have nothing to discuss regarding the matter.

    What I HAVE found, however, are the following statements among users’ postings. Unfortunately, they prove the sad plight of gay Muslims in this country due to the wider Muslim attitude to homosexuality – as revealed by the Gallup Poll. (All of the following posts are from different posters at the site.)

    “Looking to have a relationship with a gay Muslim will lessen your chances to find anyone in the first place – how many Gay Muslims are out there and of those that are out there, how many are going to be open about it for you to know they are gay which will lead to a relationship?”

    “For me it’s not a matter of preferring non-Muslims over Muslims. I just don’t know enough gay Muslims to get friendly with.”

    “If you are going to go out with muslims only that’s a bit dumb and ironic don’t you think? Since homsexuality isn’t allowed in the first place! So just go out with any race, I have done it with jewish guys…they are awesome!”

    “when i was with a white woman, and I split up with her, she decided to make life difficult for me by trying to tell my family I was gay cos she knew what that would do…..if she understood our culture/religion, even your worst enemy wouldnt do that.”

    “we keep getting told that sexuality has everything to do with part of being a good Muslim. Hence why we as gay people are always put down by the straight Muslims. Why is sexuality so important? Is it because we are not using our sexual organs in ways of creating the next generation? We keep getting told that being gay is a choice. However we all pray if that was true. I for one for a long time prayed to be straight so i could save my family from the humiliation of having a gay son. Dont get me wrong I am now happy to be who I am – gay.”

    “I am a 29yrso cross dresser, my younger brother is 5yrs younger than me and he has found out alot of things that i wouldnt like him to know from an X friend and is basicly giving me threats of telling my mum and other memebers of the family what i get upto…and he said if i dont change in 2 months he will tell the whole family. He also wants me to end it with my fiance which i have been with for 4yrs coz she is white. He has also been giving me death threats too.”

    “I dont know if this will help but ive had some close calls and ive been questioned by some friends and even some family……they want to hear that its not tru. they want u to say its false. They dont want it to be tru. My advice is to deny it….what ever ur brother says, what ever he show ur family…. deny it…. they will believe you becasue they dont want to believe its tru, because its easier to believe its a lie… than facing the truth. deny it! i wish u all the best!”


    All of the above posts reveal the awful plight of gay and lesbian Muslims in the UK today. Note, however, that the Imaan website shows that some GAY and LESBIAN Muslims are getting on with practising their homosexual orientation REGARDLESS of the disapproval of the GENERAL Muslim community.

    And this is where I think a number of people in this thread have been in error. The Gallup Poll reflects what a fair sampling of UK MUSLIMS in general think about homosexuality. It does not reflect the view of that very small number of Muslims who identify as gay or lesbian. Why not? Because THEY weren’t specifically targeted. As the Gallup report clearly states, the people questioned were UK Muslims. Perhaps one or two secretly gay or lesbian Muslims were caught in the cohort of those questioned . . . but as we can see from the true expressions from the Imaan Forum above, the general feeling of UK gay or lesbian Muslims is that if you choose to practise your homosexual inclinations you keep it quiet.

    This said, this is my last post on this thread. I hope those who have not so far accepted that UK Muslims in general do not approve of homosexuality really do learn something from the above.

    My final word is this: beware woolly thinking and all woolly thinkers.


  212. Bill Perdue . . . interesting. . .

    What is also interesting is the Islamic enlightnement in the 12 century, centuries before the European enlightment. . . and how the early Islamic enlightment lead to major developents in the arts and sciences and philosophy.

  213. Sister Mary Clarence 11 May 2009, 10:56pm

    Eddy, I’m not sure if that last posting was in response to my request for an explanation of the variance in survey finds., or the answer to something someone else has posted

    If so, it does seem to skirt around the obvious and draw some rather tenuous assertions.

    Could you maybe just run through the most obvious ones to start with and maybe then we can move on to some of the others I’ve got lined up.

    I am getting a bit frustrated I have to say having to repeatedly ask for the same thing. I am, dare I say it, losing confidence that you are capable of actually doing any sort of rudimentary analysis of either data set, irrespective of your huffing and puffing. I would even go further and suggest that your huffing and puffing might be intended to disguise the fact that when it comes down to it, you don’t actually have a clue what you’re talking about.

  214. OK, this is nothing like as fast or as detailed as my last response (which didn’t post) but let me just do the highlights. From everything Eddie posted above, he’s not making any major points about Islam and homosexuality. I recognise everything those guys and gals said about being gay in Britain 30 years ago when you’re a Christian. I also remember being bombed to hell and back by ‘Christian’ terrorists. Eddy’s argument is nothing about how inescapably homophobic Islam is, it’s everything about how we have to change attitudes. Being gay in Britain has frequently been controversial, but it’s never been fight we couldn’t win. So instead of looking at Islam as some kind of monolith with no fractures or qweaknesses, let’s look at the really simple idea of how we – as a gay population in Britain – should help gay men ad women wiht a different sexual orientation can have a nicer, easier life. We did it for ourselves as white and then increasingly black gay men. We’re not weak. We can do this. But we have to get over the ‘Islam’ thing. I’m old enough to have been bombed by the IRA/Catholic thing. They were scary as fuck back in the day – as well as incredibly lethal. But the world changes. We’re all capable of changing the world simply by existing. But there’s no way in hell I’ll throw a gay Muslim under the bus simply because he’s a Muslim. He may not be my lover, but he’s my friend.
    We’re not weak people. We’ve challenged Christianity, and we’ve changed Judaism and we can do the same in Islam, too.

  215. ROB N (209):

    I was wrong, 100% wrong, when I said to you the other day: “Don’t be like that.” Do you get it?

    You have taught me something that nobody else could have taught me: I can be 100% wrong and believe I am 100% right.

    You have proven how swifly it can be done too, which is what the UK needs to do with extrememist muslim immigrants, and you’ve got your work cut out for you if ever you decide on tackling that issue.

    Not only is the gay community in the UK contaminated with losers like Eddy and Keith who enjoy tormenting the LGBT’s under pretext of teaching them how to grow up and become like them who are so, so ‘world wise’ and basically anarchists, the British society has become contaminated with a few muslim extremists who would want LGBT persons dead.

    However, I agree wholehearttedly with Sister Mary Clarence who has proven time and again, and so has charlene in her own sweet way, that the real threat to the LGBT community is people like Eddy and Keith who, like you say, are shit-stirring s.o.b.’s. You were just too decent and polite to correct me the first time around, and I thank you for that.

    Follow your instinct, Rob. Go for it.

    What confused me about you is that you seem to drop out of sight whenever either one of those bastards give you a going over. You no doubt have a good reason for that, and it’s none of my f*cking business.

    As for being an Acadian, all I feel like telling anybody about that right now is that I am a direct descendant of the first French settlers to establish themselves in Eastern Canada (The New World) in 1642, and that we, that is a family committee of which I was a member for years, have traced our French ancestry as far back as the nobility of 1247, and in a place called Lyon in France.

    I got so fed up of this committee who thought of being Acadian as being more important than being a human being, that I told every last one of them to FUCK OFF, and that’s why I am now alienated from my relatives and you know what…I don’t give a shit. I’m doing just fine, if not better.

    I am alive because my father, a chronic alcoholic who began drinking rot gut gin at 12 years old, raped my mother, and enough said about dear old Dad. Sometimes I wish I had shot him instead of his f*cking goat. And to think that he went around telling everybody that I was his favorite son when in reality he never gave me me a moment’s notice.

    Having a cultural heritage doesn’t necessarily make someone lucky. The proof of that is that the younger generations of Acadians, once they have completed their education or mastered a trade (which is where the real money is, by the way), get as far away from their families as they can, Vancouver and Edmunton being the favorite spots to start a new life at the moment, which is where my niece and her Bosnian husband now live.

    Let me just say a word about ‘being born under pyrex’. You are the first test tube baby I have ever met. Allow me to tell you that you are a human being before being anything else, and that applies to being a member of a gay community.

    There is no real gay community, just gay people who enjoy talking to each other once in a while and then life goes on as usual. Also, the LGBT population is now targetted by the Pink Market, business enterprises who rake in millions of dollars a years catering to LGBT persons.

    And in the free market society in which we live, there’s nothing wrong with making a profit anyway you can.

    There’s absolutely nothing illegal or immoral about being a test tube baby. Who knows, with the growing rate of disfunctional families, you are probably better off than most people.

    I can’t explain it; it’s certainly not because I want to get into your pants (I am in a loving 19-year-old same-sex relationship, and we are both monogamus), but there is something about the way you write that I really like, and I wouldn’t change a thing about you, not a thing.

    Cyberspace hug, man. And please don’t feel obliged to answer this post. xoxoxo!

  216. JohnK (212):

    Only a scholar or a fellow-academic could possibly know about the Islamic enlightenment of the 12th century, and I cannot thank you enough for bringing that up on this thread.

    Among other things, it gives me an occasion to thank Islam for people like Kindi (c. 870), Avicenna (980-1036), Averroes (1126-1198) and Maimonides (1135-1204) who preserved and improved the works of Aristotle (while the RCC was burning every scrap of Greek philosophy ‘it’ could put its hands on, except the ‘beloved’ Plato of course), and passing it on to Europe whose uuniversities proceeded to produce ingeneous men like Roger Bacon (1214-1294), Duns Scotus (1270-1308) and my personal favorite William of Occam (1290-1349) in spite of the RCC’s attempt to shut them up with threats of excommunication and spending eternity in the flames and strench of an imaginary never-never land which is rooted in the Tuscan paleolithic mythology, not the Bable as so many RCC self-serving idiots try to make us believe.

    In many ways, it would be important to let Muslim immigrants know how much we value the important contribution they have made to western civilisation, and the same applies to Jewish scholars who are simply too numerous to name.

    Hats off to you, buddy.

  217. adrian, thanks for the i never heard of it before. looks very helpful. s.

  218. S – My pleasure. I’ll post some more contact details here tomorrow. A friend of mine promised to mail me some more organisations that could be of help to you.

    Take care and look after yourself – x A

  219. Simon Murphy 13 May 2009, 3:38pm

    #196: S: You say: ” in two years I will marry. there is no choice.”

    That is a difficult and unfortunate situation for sure but you are wrong to say you have no choice in the matter.

    Do you have a job?
    Are you financially independent from your family?
    Do you have your own place to live away from your family?

    You need to arrange a job and apartment for yourself; get connected to some other Pakistani gay muslims and inform your family that you are not going to participate in a charade of a life.

    It will be difficult and lonely but ultimately will make you happier than by living a fake half life with a wife (who also doesn;t deserve a half marriage).

    Difficult as it may be you need to stand up to your family on this. Unless you do then things will never change

  220. Brian Burton 13 May 2009, 9:44pm

    In 1963 I was in a pub called ‘The White Bear’ in Picadilly London. I was with a couple of other Gays in the main bar. Later we started talking to two very good looking boys with wonderful tans. We found out that the two had just come back from Jordan where the two of them stayed with two rich Jordan business men for sex and a huge fee for doing so. The Jordan Men were muslim, so, if the muslims say they do not tolerate Homosexuality. Why entertain English rent-boys?

  221. Lady Tanya 14 May 2009, 3:18am

    If they do not like the english way of life THEN WAY OH FUCKING WAY DO THEY STILL COME IN TO THIS LAND IF THEY DO NOT LIKE IT

  222. turkish/german/muslim/gay 14 May 2009, 4:38am

    well as my name says I am a gay male, who lives in germany, born to turkish parents.I can’t say I have an easy life, but I cannot say It’s because me being gay.I had more problems with germans who had a problem with my turkish background, then with turks/muslims who had a problem with me being gay!

    During highschool I had rather germans mocking me for being gay , then the turkish students.They didnt say anything in front of me nor did they threaten me or something.All I can assume is that the worst thing the muslim students have done was talking behind my back.But it didnt stop them from hangin around with me or talking to me,but they have never asked me if I’m gay.

    I am more of less open ,but I also know about turkish or even muslim gays, who are more open bout themselves then me.Of course there are the horror stories bout homophobic parents aswell.
    But when you are part of three minority groups, the sexual orientation, the ethnic group and the religion.Then you learn to forget to see the world in certain groups or cliche’s.
    I know total atheists but who are homophobic as fuck.And I also know some total religious muslims who helped me out alot even tho they know im gay.

    All I wanna say is that especially we gays should stop differing the world in black and white. There is a huge grey zone in everything.Many ppl dont even know that the religious wedding ceremony is written for “partners”.There is no word of a husband and a wife.Many ppl dont even know that there is no certain prohibition of being gay according to the Quran.There is only one passage of comdemning the ppl of Sodom and Gomorrha who wanted to do something “which hasnt been done before”. And I highly doubt that homosexuality wasnt there before in Sodom and the world.
    So many reasons why even some Muslim clerics have and still are performing the wedding ceremony for same sex muslim couples…..

    But its also the fact that the muslim ppl had alot of troubles and wars going on the past 100 years….and the recent war on terror marks most of us as mere suspects of being terrorists then hard working citizens.and all these years of narrow mindness brought up more negative then positive effects on gay ppl….

    I just hope that we can reach the point where both sides can be more open minded and respectfull to each other…..


  223. A comprehensive list of LGBT sites for muslim community: /qmr.html

    Many gay people also use the web forum of the Council of Ex-Muslims of Britain [ex-muslim. org. uk] .

    Obviously put www in front of the above links and remove the spaces.

  224. I followed the above thread with interest, particularly the refusal by a small minority (of the above posters) to believe the finding that the average Muslim person in the UK has no tolerance of homosexuality.

    Some people (above) have said that the Poll was poorly conducted because it was conducted by a group (The Coexist Foundation) that has no skill in conducting valid surveys.

    Consequently I decided that I would write to Coexist and question them as to the methods used.

    I have received the following reply from their Coordinator. She advises that Coexist had no part in the conducting of the actual survey. The survey was carried out by Gallup, experts in their field.

    The letter reads:

    “I should clarify that the Coexist Foundation has had no involvement in the design or the analysis of the polling data.  This is exclusively Gallup’s work – what we have done, in our partnership with them, is to help disseminate the findings so that the public can have a better sense of what Muslims believe – rather than what politicians, pundits and other self-appointed spokespeople would have them believe!  In Gallup’s words, the aim of this process is to “democratise the debate” and allow a voice for ordinary people…

    If you are interested in finding out more about Gallup’s work, might I point you to ?  

    All good wishes, and thank you again for taking the trouble to write.

    Bridget Flavell
    Coordinator,  The Coexist Foundation
    17-19 Bedford Street
    London WC2E 9HP”

  225. antireligious t shirts 12 Jan 2010, 2:26am

    Hi there ! Thank for posting.

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