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Remembering the Admiral Duncan bombing

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  1. Gareth Evans 30 Apr 2009, 7:49am

    My partner and I were there a matter of minutes before the bomb went off but left to meet a friend at another bar. To think that Cinders (David) survived the bombing only to have been killed several years later on the south bank of the Thames still hurts me. May you rest in peace forever David.

  2. Has it really been 10 years!! It seems like yesterday – my friends & I were determind to go out lots in the next few months, although we lived in Swansea we thought it was important (of course the world revolves around you at 19). Love to those who were there. xx

  3. And let us remember there have been one or two visitors to these Comments sections in the past of couple of weeks who have been exhibiting frightening hatred of homosexual men and women. There are other David Copelands out there TODAY. We need to remain vigilant and inform the police of anyone who exhibits clear, determined, and absolute hatred of us.

  4. Yeah Eddy, you’d like that. Something to hang your incessant whinging on, like the Jews and the Holocaust. Every time you get into an argument, you can throw that old chestnut in. It was *ONE* nutter, ten years ago. It’s not like we are being slaughtered in droves. Drop the persecution complex and get on with your life instead of constantly looking over you shoulder for things that really aren’t there.

  5. There will also be a commemoration of those who died and who were injured in prayers at the 10th Anniversary of the beginning of London Masses welcoming LGBT Catholics.This takes place on Sunday, 3 May, 17.00, at the Church of Our Lady of the Assumption & St. Gregory,Warwick Street, Soho W1B 5NB. Refreshments follow the Mass and all are welcome. http://www.sohomasses.com

  6. Jonny Roland 30 Apr 2009, 5:19pm

    I am 18, and consider myself to be fairly educated when it comes to gay history. Why was it I didn’t know about the bombing until an article in Gay Times last month. It is disgusting it is not remembered more. We are two quick to think about times before legalisation, and don’t realise there has been so much vicious homophobia in the last few years.

    What wasn’t mentioned in the PN article, is that Jack Straw, the Home Secretary of the time, visited Brixton and Brick Lane straight after the bombings, yet failed to make an appearance.
    It was Prince Charles who showed compassion, and came to Old Compton Street.

  7. KEITH SIMPSON 30 Apr 2009, 6:48pm

    ROB N…!
    TUT! TUT !! TUTTTTTTTTT…!!!

    NO YOUNG MAN!
    IN MAJDANEK, LUBLIN, S.E.POLAND, THERE IS A MOUND OF ASH AS BIG AS A HOUSE. IT IS THE ASHES OF THOSE MURDERED IN THAT DEATH CAMP.
    JEWS ARE THERE, ROMA GYPSIES, QUEERS; ALL THERE, HUNDREDS OF TONS OF ASH.
    ABOVE THE MOUND, THERE IS A NOTICE IN POLISH WHICH EXHORTS THE ON-LOOKER “UWAGA! NIECH…. ‘BE WARY LEST THAT WHICH BEFELL US, BEFALLS YOU, ALSO.’
    ALL POWER TO THE WHINGERS, as you call them, LIKE EDDY.
    EDDY..! WHINGE ON, LAD…!
    BECAUSE, TO PARAPHRASE ANOTHER, WHEN THERE IS NO-ONE LEFT WHINGEING, WHO, WHEN I NEED IT, WILL WHINGE ON MY BEHALF..?
    I WHINGE INCESSANTLY TOO, ROB N…
    I WHINGE AND WITTER AND BANG ON AND ON AND ONN.N.N.N ABOUT THE SODDING CATHOLIC CHURCH WHO WOULD HAVE HAD MY HEAD WRAPPED AROUND WITH ELECTRIC WIRES 50 YEARS AGO AND SHOCKED “THIS DREADFUL DISEASE OF HOMOSEXUALITY” OUT OF ME…MUCH LIKE THIS RECENT
    15-MINUTES-OF FAME-DICKHEAD, Dr. NARCOSI, OR WHATEVER HIS NAME IS.

    SOON, AND IT IS COMING, THE FAIRY-LIKE, STATE RELIGION WE HAVE IN THIS COUNTRY, THE C of E, WILL MIZZLE UP ITS OWN ARSEHOLE BECAUSE IT IS A PALE, WISHY-WASHY-ANY-WAY-THE-WIND-BLOWS-COPY-OF CATHOLICISM.

    YOU WILL THEN BE LEFT WITH A PINCER MOVEMENT OF NUTTERS, FUNDAMENTALIST PAPISTS AND RADICAL MUSLIMS, EACH INTENT ON CREATING ANOTHER MOUND OF ASH.
    THE LIKES OF ME AND THE LIKES OF WHINGEING EDDY ARE A TINY, SHRILL VOICE AGAINST THAT.
    I NOTICE THAT YOU SAY “WE…” IN YOUR COMMENT, SO I ASSUME YOU ARE A ‘FRIEND-OF-DOROTHY’ TO A GREATER OR LESSER DEGREE; IF YOU ARE NOT, THEN I APOLOGISE.
    WHO WILL SPEAK FOR YOU WHEN THE IMAM’s OR THE CARDINAL’s RELIGIOUS POLICE COME FOR YOU..?
    KEITH.
    SALFORD…
    Don’t laff…it has already started..

  8. KEITH SIMPSON 30 Apr 2009, 7:15pm

    ROB N

    YOU SAY TO EDDY, “…..and get on with your life, instead of looking for things that are not really there….”

    OH…?
    NOT REALLY THERE?

    WHAT WAS THE PUNISHMENT METED OUT ONLY DAYS AGO, WASN’T IT, TO HOMOSEXUALS IN IRAQ, I THINK.
    THEY HAD THE CHEEKS OF THEIR ARSEHOLES SUPERGLUED; STUCK SHUT.
    THEY WERE GIVEN A POTENT LAXATIVE….AND PROMPTLY AND VERY LITERALLY, EX…….FUCKING….PLODED…
    NOT REALLY THERE…?
    THINK AGAIN, LADDY, THINK VERY HARD.
    THAT MIGHT NOT BE HERE.
    THAT MIGHT BE FAR OFF IRAQ…TODAY.
    IT ONLY NEEDS SOME ‘GOD-IS-WITH-ME,-GOD-TOLD-ME-SO, GOD-HATES-QUEERS’ NUTTER HERE TO THINK THAT “THAT WOULD BE A SUPER JOLLY JAPE”…
    FAR-FETCHED…?
    I HOPE SO! I REALLY HOPE SO.!……FOR YOU, LADDY, FOR YOUUUUU..!

    THE INQUISITION?
    THE SALEM WITCH TRIALS?
    AUSCHWIZ-BIRKENAU?
    DACHAU?
    MAJDANEK?
    TREBLINKA?
    THERESIENSTADT?
    THEY ALL DEFY BELIEF…RUBBISH…
    ALL IMPOSSIBLE…!
    THEY COULD NOT HAVE HAPPENED…!
    OH YEAH…?

    KEITH
    SALFORD.

  9. KEITH SIMPSON 30 Apr 2009, 7:41pm

    I SAID .. “…don’t laff it’s already started…”
    …IN MY PENULTIMATE COMMENT TO YOU, ROB N.

    AND WHAT’S THIS I READ NOW IN PINK NEWS…?

    “FAITH SCHOOLS TO BE ALLOWED TO TELL PUPILS HOMOSEXUALITY IS WRONG..” (SCHOOLS WILL BE ABLE TO TEACH SEX-EDUCATION TO THEIR PUPILS IN LINE WITH THE CONTEXT, VALUES AND ETHOS,”….OF THEIR SCHOOLS).
    THAT’S REAL, ROB N..NO ?
    REAL INDEED; A START…
    THE TAIL IS WAGGING THE DOG…THE FOOT IS IN THE DOOR…OPT-OUTS FROM THE LAW OF THE LAND.
    THE CATHOLIC, RELIGIOUS RIGHT IS WAGGING THE DULY ELECTED HOUSE IN WESTMINSTER.
    THE C of E IS STUMBLING AND MUMBLING AS USUAL, IRRELEVANTLY, IN THE BACKGROUND, SOMEBLOODYWHERE.
    AND ALL THE WHILE THE PINCER MOVEMENT OF RELIGIOUS NUTTERS IS GATHERING MOMENTUM…THE BULLIES, THE ARSE-CHEEK SUPER-GLUERS, THE STABBERS, THE DUNCAN BOMBERS.
    “DON’T LAFF……….IT’S STARTED”….?

    “COME ON MOTHER, THIS IS WHERE WE CAME IN…GET THEE COAT….!”

    KEITH.
    SALFORD.

  10. Keith SIMPSON 30 Apr 2009, 8:38pm

    Sorry to be hogging the column inches…BUT.

    FAR FETCHED, AM I…?

    THERE IS A MEMBER STATE OF THE EUROPEAN UNION WHICH IS AS ENTHRALLED WITH ITS PREVIOUS POPE, WOJTYLA, AND ITS CATHOLICISM, AS ANY MUSLIM IS WITH HIS ISLAM, HIS PROPHET OR IMAM OR AYATOLLAH OR WHATEVER THEY ARE CALLED.
    AND WHAT WAS IT THAT THAT COUNTRY (POLAND) WAS MOST EXERCISED ABOUT VERY RECENTLY…?
    A GAY, PRE-PUBESCENT ELEPHANT, IN POZNAN ZOO, FOR ONE THING.
    ASKING QUESTIONS AS TO ITS SEXUALITY BECAUSE IT ONLY HUNG AROUND WITH ITS (MALE) BUDDIES!
    EXERCISED TO DEATH THESE PARLIAMENTARY MORONS WERE, IN CASE THE HEFFALUMP CONVEYED THE WRONG IDEAS ON SEXUALITY TO POLISH YOUTH.
    ALL RABID, CARD-CARRYING, ROSARY BEAD TOTIN’ KAFFLICKS OF COURSE, THESE PARLIAMENTARIANS.
    BEING A MORON IS OK BUT NOT IN THE E.U. OF THE 21st. CENTURY, THANKS!

    AND THE OTHER THING…?
    THE TELETUBBY WHO SPORTED A HANDBAG…’TINKY-WINKY’ WAS IT..?
    THIS TELETUBBY IS PERCEIVED AS ‘MALE’ BUT CARRIES A HANDBAG….NOT AN ACCEPTABLE ROLE MODEL FOR POLISH MALE CHILDREN.

    YOU COULDN’T MAKE IT UP…!!!

    ROB N…

    DO YOU WANT TO LIVE IN A COUNTRY LIKE THAT, POLAND, SOME 90%+ CATHOLIC…?
    BECAUSE THAT’S THE CHOICE YOU’LL HAVE IN A BIT.
    MUSLIM FUNDAMENTALISTS HERE WITH THEIR SUPER-GLUE, ELSE KAFFLICKS AND THEIR ELECTRIC SHOCKS.
    IT’S COMING.
    TITTER YE NOT..

    KEITH.
    SALFORD.

  11. RobN:

    Don’t be like that.

    I know the younger generations can have legitimate reasons for disliking older guys, but Eddy and Keith have never done anything to deserve such disdain.

    If anything we are fortunate to have them among us as elders, and both you and I should feel free to approach them for advice or for a perception of what things were like in the days when gays in the UK were constantly harassed not only by religious crackpots, but by the bobbies.

    Take a minute and read what you have written. Is that the kind of unapproachable and unkind gay person you realy want to be? It’s so ‘New York 1950′s’ when bitching at and hurting each other was considered campy.

    Don’t be like that.

    The issue here is remembrance of a tragedy that could just as easily have put you to rest forever and caused great pain to those who love you.

    This is an occasion to mourn, not to be unpleasant.

    I’ve always enjoyed reading your posts, and I have made my fair share of stupid remarks. There is no guarantee that I will not say something ridiculous in the future either. We all make mistakes. But please, try not to be like that.

  12. Keith Simpson: YOU DON’T HAVE TO DO EVERYTHING IN CAPITALS. DID YOU NOT KNOW IT IS THE ONLINE EQUIVALENT OF SHOUTING?
    You don’t have to write four posts to get across your incoherent ramblings. Next time try writing a letter instead of yelling whatever pops into your tiny mind from the rooftops.

  13. Keith SIMPSON 30 Apr 2009, 9:09pm

    JEAN-PAUL…!

    Easy on, old lad..!
    Them bobbies…!
    Lovely, they wuz…!

    I remember…was it 1958 or ’59…CLIFTON HOTEL, (FRONT BAR) ..BLACKPOOL…

    I had just…

    Oh, well, another time!
    I have hogged the limelight too much already tonight…time for the long-handled crook…

    Keith.
    Salford.

  14. Keith, well said, my friend. No need given your absolutely bang-on truthful Comments for me to respond to the very questionable “RobN” – whom I seem to remember several weeks ago betrayed a significant lack of awareness of the existence of ethics, never mind a lack of any ethical stance. A Big Hug to you, Keith.

    Jean-Paul, nice to read you, as ever.

  15. Jean-Paul: I was aware of what I wrote at the time could be misconstrued by some, but frankly there was no other analogy I could use. The problem is that often minorities treat their condition like it was a “cross to bear” with all the “woe is me” rhetoric and hand wringing. An LGBT persons life may not be perfect compared to someone who isnt, but by comparison to how it was 50 years ago, it’s a vast improvement. I just think that some queens will always have something to moan about. I have no intention of upsetting people, but I will not shirk from saying what I think. Even the moderator on here blocked me, which demonstrates the level of free speech on this site. The bombing was a sad and unfortunate incident, but let’s get it all in perspective. Had a gay tour bus been blown up on 7/11, everyone would be squealing that it was homophobically motivated. I think people really need to look at the big picture, rather than just their own little gay microcosm of it.

  16. Keith SIMPSON 30 Apr 2009, 9:18pm

    ROB N.

    But I do, dearie, I dooooo..!

    I am as blind as a bat and cannot see wot I have wroted if I don’t use capitals.
    You’ll get there, don’t worry; if you don’t get a broom-handle shoved up yer back passage in some dark alley courtesy of the religious po-leece beforehand.
    Oooh…?
    Miracle…!
    I can see….!
    No capitals…..!
    I can see………………!!!!
    Oooooooops..! but that doesn’t solve my “incoherent ramblings” problem do it…!!

    Rob N dahlink…
    When ducks are young, their beaks are soft..

    You’ll learn.
    Nowt so deaf as them as won’t lissun..
    Wotch out fer them broomhandles, now!
    Don’t let me be a-reading about you, assaulted, on these PINK NEWS pages.

    Keith.
    SALFORD.

  17. Keith SIMPSON 30 Apr 2009, 9:23pm

    Hey, ROB N, baby…!
    That’s 3 comments off YOU…!
    Tha’s ketchin’ oop lad…tha’s ketchin oop…!
    K
    xx

  18. “The problem is that often minorities treat their condition like it was a “cross to bear” with all the “woe is me” rhetoric and hand wringing. An LGBT persons life may not be perfect compared to someone who isnt, but by comparison to how it was 50 years ago, it’s a vast improvement” (RobN)

    Rob, I am neither an old fart, nor a spring chicken. I am fortunate to have grown up in a time and a place (London) when being gay, whilst not yet universally accepted, was not an instant ticket to be abused, harrased and derided. However, reading your comments it seems very much as if you think we need to forget the past and concentrate on the now. Whilst that, to some extent is valid, I think you are missing the point. The phrase you use : ‘An LGBT persons life may not be perfect compared to someone who isnt, but by comparison to how it was 50 years ago, it’s a vast improvement’ seems to imply that we have now got our rights and should just go about embracing them.

    Nobody gave us those rights because they felt, off their own backs we deserved it. We got them because LGBT people stood up for themselves, shouted, protested, got assaulted, beaten up and imprisoned and generally made a nuisance of themselves. That is never going to change. Proposition 8 in California shows us that – if you want to be treated as an equal you need to go out and WHINGE until people take notice. The Poll tax didn’t get scrapped because people sat at home and tutted about it to their families. It got repealed because people took to the streets and actively refused to comply with it. The Berlin Wall didn’t come down becuase East Germans were quietly miffed about their lot, it came down because they took to the streets and demonstrated. Our rights won’t come if we sit back and think “Oooh, best not kick up a fuss, let’s watch Corrie instead”.

    Whilst we might enjoy relative liberty in this country, the rise of religious fundamentalism around the world shows us that the ‘improvemment’ in our situation is a fragile and possibly temporary thing. Taking the laissez faire attitude you seem to espouse is the most dangerous thing. By all means fuck around and enjoy the bars and clubs, but remember that there WILL always be someone who wants to beat you up or close down your favourite club simply because they feel superior to you. It’s the whingers and the guys and girls with placards and on demonstrations that make sure these bigots don’t get the chance.

    Next time you see fundamentalist Muslims on the news, or in your town, parading the street with ‘Behead those who insult Islam’, remember that they mean you – a gay man, just living your life. Whinge about it, or accept their viewpoint and take what they want to mete out. Silence, in cases like that is effectively assent.

  19. Keith SIMPSON 30 Apr 2009, 10:07pm

    NICK..
    PRECISELY..!
    Just what I said above.
    Whinge and kick up a fuss now or be kicked to death later.
    K
    SALFORD.

  20. RobN:
    Now you’re talking my language.
    I could rant on about how we have the gift to live in both the micro and the macro, how we don’t all have the same constitution, and how the struggle between generations is as old as the hills, but I would not be telling you anything you don’t already know.

    The first time my father took me out hunting I shot the first thing that moved. It turned out to be my father’s favorite goat. Dad used to love goats, don’t ask me why. I turned to fishing after that.

    My point is I too have shot at the wrong target.

    As long as you are aiming at the right target, my friend, I will always stand beside you to remind you never to shirk from saying what you think.

    There’s a lot of wisdom in Nick’s comment and some of it may have gone into one ear and out the other. But what about your wisdom, RobN? Anyone who writes as well as you must have a whole bunch of little wheels turning in his head. You’re smart, you’re gay, you’re gifted. I’d like to learn something from your generation, from you, something that nobody else can teach me.
    Frankly, that’s what growing up is all about – not just saying what you think, but also speaking from the heart, like you just did when you answered my post. You were speaking my language.
    Gros merci.

  21. Leon K Fox 1 May 2009, 9:14am

    I can’t beleive some people are so insecure and pathetic that they’ll go out of their way to do stuff like this to people who have no affect on them at all

  22. Come on now you lot, kiss & make up. A lot of us are angry & with good cause. If you happen to live a peaceful life where no-one is bothered whether you are gay or straight then you are very lucky.

  23. And I can’t believe my eyes reading this statment from RobN: ‘I think people really need to look at the big picture, rather than just their own little gay microcosm of it’. When he fired his missile at Eddy, RobN must surely have just come from the main page of Pink News . . . whereon are detailed day after fucken day all the appalling Admiral-Duncan-type things that are done against LGBTs the world over! Seems to me RobN is some perky little spring chicken which wants to believe it’s a totally lovely world we live in. If he’s not that, then he could be some older person with a sad Peter Pan complex, the eyes still closed to the awful realities of this world. Maybe RobN needs HIS arse-hole glued shut with super-glue (Iraqi-style) for a week. That would maybe change his attitude?

  24. Jean-Paul 1 May 2009, 6:38pm

    Geoff:
    Please feel free to tell me to f*ck off, because as Charlene has pointed out I am very fortunate to be living a peaceful life where no-one is bothering me here in New Brunswick, Canada.

    I would be prepared to defend you just as I am about to defend RobN simply because I feel I have grown about six inches (in height) since I’ve been reading PinkNews. I love the British!

    RobN is no more immature than I am and I am 64 years young. We all tend to speak our minds and it has happened to me on a number of ocassions to click the ‘Say it!’ command just as I was realizing that I should have expressed myself differently. If it has never happened to you, it may very well happen to you one of these days and I hope that no-one takes a shot at you, figuratively speaking, the way you just lambasted RobN.

    We are here to support one another, and when the time comes to take on some issue, we need to learn to shoot at the right target, not at one another.

    Eddy and Keith have a lot to teach us about that and even if they sound like crazy old coots sometimes, that just makes them colorful characters to me.

    Of course, we can comment on each other’s posts, but there are constructive ways to do it. The world will take care of hurting us over and over again; why are we hurting one another? We were commemorating a senseless bombing of a gay club, remember?

    And I do not intend to flatter you when I say that you too have a gift with words and especially with expressing your emotions. There is no limit to the contribution you could make to our common cause by ‘shooting at the right target’.

    Finally, Geoff, we are all ‘under construction’ and growing as human beings never stops as our attitudes are more or less modified by our life’s experiences. Being insulted only entrenches us in our attitudes. But in all fairness, I must say that living under stress like all of you in the UK right now makes it a bit of a challenge to lighten up.

    I am not saying that we should not insult our enemies with the expertise of our AdrianT and our Flapjack.

    Listen to me, an old fart, giving advice to a wise fox like you!

  25. J-P, no, no, no, mate! You’re neutralizing the communication. It’s gotta come from GUT. Middle Englanders and one hell of a lot of Americans are too good at being placid, not rockin the boat. It does no good at all. If every time somebody says something which is wrong we all pause and think ‘ah, poor little lamb, he didn’t think before he pressed the Submit button’ then what a fucken anodyne bloody conversation there would be. No. If somebody sticks there head up and says something they need to learn to think first and if someone doesn’t then they have to be prepared to receive whatever comes. That’s honest communication, not always sweet and polite but instant and honest. That is, I believe, why Britain standing alone against the Germans led the winning of WW2 – with some fantastic help from you guys, the Aussies, the Kiwis, and the Yanks.

  26. Jean-Paul 2 May 2009, 6:05pm

    Geoff:
    How can I disagre with a word you’ve said?
    Don’t you think I know that Canadians are wishy-washy, apathetic morons who can neither think for themselves or express themselves instantly and honestly?
    And don’t you think I do appreciate your being so honest with me?
    And don’t you know that there are dozens of gay websites I could be following but I prefer PinkNews precisely because I need to break out of my ‘polite, silent doormat mentality’ and not be afraid to state my point of view according to my conscience the way you British have mastered as far back as the days of Chaucer, Marlow and Shakespeare?
    However, you must surely know that I would have ignored you completly if you had started your post by telling me to go f*ck myself and have my arse-hole glued together for a week and be force fed a product that would cause me to have diarhea and die a most painful death.
    Go ahead and teach me how to rock the boat. But remember that any of your wisdom will go unnoticed if you become overly vulgar and offensive to make your point.
    We Canadians learned how to be civil by the British, don’t forget, and if we don’t go so far as to have tea and crumpets at 4 p.m. sharp, we still fly the Union Jack at city halls across the country, as well as at every Canadian Legion Hall which commemorates the two world wars in their museums and invite the public to freely participate in cribbage tournaments regularly.
    Finally, Geoff, I am entirely satisfied with your response and I believe you would better put your excellent points across in any debate by attempting to gradually be a tad less offensive, my friend.
    You gotta admit that I was right to tag you as a wise fox though!

  27. Oi! Jean-Paul!

    A week ago you were proposing a get-together over ginger-ales between you, me, and your partner. Very nice. But, now, above I find that you have branded me a crazy old coot!

    I am not old, though I have as many old friends (in their 60s and 70s) as friends in their 20s and 30s.

    I also bear no resemblance to a coot.

    Nor am I crazy!

    :-)

  28. Keith, my friend!

    If you want to punctuate your posts with considerable use of capital letters then you go ahead and keep on doing so! If you want to shout, then you SHOUT! Music is full of piano and forte. We need BOTH. If others want to whisper all the time, then they can. Never let any bullies tell you what style of delivery you must adopt.

    There are some very touchy little flowers around who don’t like strength of opinion from others, just as much as they can’t bear others who speak with confidence and colour! It makes them realise they are pale by comparison.

    So you keep at it, Keith. Take no notice of those of those of fascist and censorious inclinations! I enjoy your demonstrative, poetic posts!

  29. Jean-Paul 5 May 2009, 5:29am

    Eddy:

    I am just now catching up on this thread and I see where you mentoned the ‘crazy old coot’ thing.

    I hope you have read my recent post on another thread (the one about faith schools, I think), and that you are prepared to forgive me for being so gauche in trying to make a point like a ‘touchy little flower’.

    I have been suppressing myself for a good many years, Eddy, and these posts in the UK are about the best therapy I could ask for to learn to speak my mind and my heart. For one thing I have already learned that music is full of piano and forte, what a pertinent analogy.

    If you have something to say to me, then by all means, go for it. I ain’t perfect, and the last thing I want to do is to sound patronizing.

    By the way, the next time you get in touch with me, could you give me an idea of what the word ‘whinging’ means? I’m serious; I don’t find it in the Webster’s Collegiate Dictionary, and I notice it is used from time to time by different commentators.

    I also wish I knew what Middle England means. I don’t mean geographically; I have found it on Google Earth; I mean socially I guess, or politically or whatever.

    It’s always good to hear from you.

  30. Jean Paul – Without wanting to label anyone specific with these words, here’s those two definitions you requested.
    Whinging basically means complaining, or whining with an element of self pity.
    Middle England is generally taken to have similar connotations to Middle America: parochial, bourgeois, middle class and often out of touch in political terms. Whether all people form Middle England share these traits is debatable, but that’s the gist of it.
    Hope you don’t mind me jumping in there with English definitions, I do this for my Malay boyfriend all the time!

  31. EDDY..!

    I SHALL, BABE, I SHALL..!
    I SHUDDA DONE IT (SCREAM ON PAPER) LONG AGO INSTEAD OF BEMOANING MY LOT.
    THEY CAN ALL GO AND PLAIT FOG…THESE SELF-RIGHTEOUS CRUDS.
    AND THAT IS WHAT THESE BOMBINGS WERE…SELF-RIGHTEOUS CRUDDERY, BORN OUT OF MISCONCEIVED RELIGIOUS BIGOTRY AND A COMPLETE ‘MISSING OF THE POINT’ OF THE MESSAGE OF THE CRIB AND THE CROSS…IF MESSAGE THERE WAS.
    ‘LOVE THY NEIGHBOUR…’…WANNIT, THE MESSAGE…?

    KEITH.
    SALFORD.

  32. Keith!

    You are something of a poet, you know!

    REALLY.

    I know I have already exhorted you to find your Manchester branch of Humanists, but now I urge you to get along to some kind of community college, evening-classes, etc., where you can do a few hours of study of writing poetry! You just need a few guidelines to do with the packing your sentiments into poetic form, . . . and away you go! Could be very therapeutic for YOU, and really amusing for US!

    Love,
    Eddy.

  33. Jean-Paul 7 May 2009, 1:40am

    Keith:
    I agree completely with Eddy’s previous comment (32).

    You’ll probably never be a T.S. Eliot, but one of those is plenty. I’m no expert, but I would recommend a sream-of-consciousness technique with an Irish twist. Brendan Behan comes to mind.

    By the way, I have a DVD movie entitled ‘Borstal Boy’ with Shawn Hatosy playing the role of a 16-year-old Behan, an Irish activist who encounters same-sex attraction while he is being detained in a reform institution in East Anglia called Borstal. It was released by Strand Releasing in 2002 (www dot strandreleasing dot com). I believe I found it on Amazon dot com just by typing in ‘Borstal Boy’ in the search box.

    That is only one Irish artist you remind me of. There’s another, a 20th century poet whose name escapes at the moment, but it will come to me and I’ll talk to you about it again (I believe he wrote a piece called ‘Waiting for Goddot’).

    Frankly, Keith, you do have the makings of a poet. In fact, most of what you have already written, if you could find a way of recuperating a bit of it, would convince any university administrator that all you need is to sharpen your technique, and that’s about as easy as learning how to use a paintbrush without getting the paint all over your fingers or all over the floor.

    Eddy is right; it is worth thinking about, and in the future try to conserve the things you write. Just don’t change your style in any way.

    Don’t ‘try’ to write poetry, just keep on doing what comes to you naturally like you’ve been doing, and don’t omit the swear words, the upper case letters the ….. or !!!!, the ‘er’ or anything else.

    Go for it, it’ll be a breeze, believe me. Your inner torment is mostly behind you and you have retained enough of it to drive and motivate you. All you need is to fix an objective in your mind, e.g. why do I want to write poetry?

    Have you given any further thought to our sisters act in ‘powder blue’ or shall I look for someone else who isn’t afraid to strut his stuff???

  34. Jean-Paul 7 May 2009, 2:07am

    Flapjack:

    Didn’t I once tell you that I would welcome any background material you would find the time to pass on to me? Gros merci.

    By the way, the reason I wanted to know was because I read in ‘The Tablet’ that Tony Blair was reported by the Sunday Times as saying that he feared that the appointment of an out lesbian as Poet Laureate wouldn’t go down well with Middle England.

    So I looked up Middle England on Google Earth and found that London is smack in the middle of Middle England. What the….???

    While I have you on the line, I still have not received an answer I asked ‘don’t-ask-me-who’ a week or so ago.

    Why does the LGBT population of the UK appear to be struggling for the basic rights that I thought the government had passed as a result of the Wolfenden Report? Why does the backlash of the Report seems to have such a strangle-hold on the LGBT person in Great Britain?

  35. Jean Paul – No problem. To put it another way, Middle England is often a shorthand for the type of folks who read “The Daily Mail”, or any English person with reactionary views on issues such as Gay rights and immigration. Again it seems unfair to label an entire geographical region with those views, but maybe it’s a trend. It’s also difficult to establish precisely which part of England counts as classic “Middle England”, are we talking about the Home counties like Gloucestershire? Birmingham? Or is it just a state of mind? It’s all slightly vague.
    Re. the Wolfendon report, the reason our equal rights are constantly challenged as I understand it is that this is taken to mean equal rights for everybody, even equal rights for groups that want to take away our equal rights such as the religious far right. This is where the confusion arises.
    The BNP tend to be snubbed with good reason (they just hate most ethnic and gay minorities equally), but if you can equate anti-gay bigotry with deeply held religious doctrine the assertion is that that has to be respected too, even if it undermines the rights of the other minority group you just gave equal rights to.
    It begs the question, can a religious zealot still be classed as a happy practicing religious zealot if they’re not directly interfering with gay rights?
    It’s a constant liberal battlefield, because blanket equality still means you have to favour one group over another, otherwise the cognative dissonance will drive you insane!

  36. Brian Burton 9 May 2009, 4:08pm

    Flapjack, There is no such place or people as ‘Middle England!’

  37. Flapjack (35)

    I am familiar with the notion of a name representing a state of mind rather than a specific geographical area. In fact, as an Acadian, if I chose to live my life in accordance with my unilingual cultural heritage, I would be living in a state of mind that has no geographical definition whatsoever.

    Acadia ceased to exist in 1713 when the French colonies in present day Atlantic Canada were handed over to the British when both royalties signed the Treaty of Utrect.

    There are many thousands of Acadians continuously fighting for the right to protect and pass on our cultural heritage and they are doing a splendid and admirable job of it.

    Moreover, both the federal and provincial governments have been and continue to be generous and to cultivate an ongoing dialogue with the representatives of the Acadian cultural heritage.

    On the whole I can understand, for example, how relatives and acadian friends of mine consider me a bit of a traitor for having nurtured bilingualism and biculturalism as far back as I can remember. When they reproach me – and they do – I generally smile (Acadians love to smile and respond well to a smile) and simply say that I am now studying Spanish and that I wish I knew a bit of Chinese.

    Regarding the Wolfendon Report, your explanation of the situation makes a lot of sense to me, finally. Am I to understand that this kind of respect for all factions of society could only exist in a country where one person is both Head of State and Head of the C of E?

    In Canada, for example, the churches are very well aware that state and religion are separated, and that chuches would risk losing their tax exemptions as charitable institutions, worth billions of dollars yearly, if they interfered too often or too deeply in political, social, economic and other governmental issues.

    That is why the RCC’s very expensive campaign to influence the government to vote down same-sex marriages turned out to be a catastrophic disaster from which the chuches have yet to recover, and in my opinion mirrors the situation at the Vatican where many billions of dollars are being spent to prevent the evolution of global politics, economics, etc., and where the head of the RCC happens to be a redoutable kind of leader who goes from one blunder to another instead of following the simple teachings of Jesus which I believe are summed up in the Golden Rule.

    Finally blanket equality in the UK has and continues to cause bewildering problems that would probably be simplified if state abd religion were separated.

    Thank you, Flapjack.

    Brian (36):

    Always a pleasure to hear from you.

  38. Brian Burton 13 May 2009, 8:03am

    Flapjack,
    I agree that State and religion should be seperated. The trouble with that is anciant tradition (which our State is reluctant to change) Since 1066AD. The Monach always chose the leading Churchmen in England and is still so today. The Monach is ‘Defender Of The Faith’ The only thing that has changed, up to date, is faith is now ‘faiths’ because of our multi-faith society that exists now. People like us are bound by traditional friendship, language and of course togetherness in World War. I walked with friends along a shoeline called Stokes Bay in Hampshire England. On the wall nereby is a plaque commemorating thousands of Canadian Troops leaving Stokes Bay departure point on D-Day June 6th. 1944 for Normandy in France.

  39. Doesn’t anyone remember it was David Myatt who poisoned David Copeland’s mind?

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