Brilliant !!! . . . perfect educational engineering to foster the next generation of EXGAYs
More information at . . . exgaywatch (dot com)
Fudge has always made me feel sick
Will non-faith schools be allowed to tell their pupils that religious faith is a mental illness, and that anyone who suffers from it can receive psychiatric help?
IMO the entire concept of faith schools is flawed.
I’m not against Religious Ed. lessons in the context of a look at all cultures and faiths, but when they drag religious principles into classes which have nothing to do with religion, it derails any useful information in favour of church dogma.
‘Intelligent design’ versus evolution is just one manifestation of that.
Religious sex education is a contridiction in terms… a bit like this Harry Enfield spoof of sex education from the home service:
In fact you’d have more luck learning about real sex from Harry Enfield’s sketch than the Pope.
Neville . . . succinctly stated.
Are you ready for a plethora of EXGAY threads in response to the news item.
As you will have probably noticed by now:
They only have one story
They only have on message
They only have one entrenched position
Faith + Education is that not an oxymoron
Another retreat by this disgusting government! Anything to placate the faithful and garner a few extra votes.
Great to see that bigotry is not allowed to become extinct. Doesn’t the UK have a Labour government, or was that in the past?
Faith schools also teach how god created the earth in Science class.
Faith schools should be illegal. It’s child abuse.
John K say that to my face.
Does Sir Alisdair Mcdonald not have his ear to the ground?
There are some good points in his proposals, like cyber bullying and money management, but as far as we are concerned, what is the difference between Macdonald’s idea of compulsory sex education in ‘faith schools’ and the way Imans teach homophobia to muslim kids by forcing them to know the Koran ‘by heart’?
Abrahamic religions are homophobic, un point, c’est tout. Homophobia is a mental illness, need I say more?
This simpleton may not know it, but he has just ‘forced’ the UK to take its first baby-step towards separating State from Religion.
Also, it’s anybody’s guess how many teachers will be looking for work serving french fries at MacDonald’s (no pun intended).
And what about the thousands of parents who have gays in the family and who love them? Will they want their younger sibblings to call them perverts destined for a place called ‘hell’, a myth elaborated in the neanderthal culture of Tuscany?
Honestly, give moi a break!
this so sick, that prick allister mcdonald should be held accountable for every gay/bi/trans related teen suicide in the UK if this goes ahead.
yet another example of the corruption of religion. and i thought things were bad in ireland
What’s homosexuality got to do with sex education anyway? Well, if you know what I mean. It’s who you are. I don’t so much object to faith schools talking about abstinence or some such thing, but that’s about how you choose to live your life not who you ARE. To me, they’re completely different things. You can tell some one that who they are is somehow ‘wrong’.
Will they also be explaining that interracial marriage is wrong? I think not. But didn’t they claim just that a few decades ago?
Bigotry shouldn’t be allowed. I’m sick of tiptoeing around people’s religious beliefs. They’re not quoting God, they’re using their religion to justify discrimination. I don’t for one moment believe that God (IF he exists) cares one jot about homosexuality.
What next? A religious group given licence to stone women ‘because their religious text says so’ so that means they can ignore the law?
Sorry – should be “You CAN’T tell someone that who they are is somehow ‘wrong’.
Andrew Q said
“Faith schools also teach how god created the earth in Science class.
Faith schools should be illegal. It’s child abuse.
John K say that to my face.”
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
Andrew, it is interesting that you have taken to distorting my words, why is that?
I never said “Faith schools should be illegal. It’s child abuse.”
I will say however that . . .
Faith schools should not be allowed to encourge EXGAY activities because this is a form of child abuse
As I said at the begiining of this thread . . .
Be prepared for an onslaught of EXGAY Fundamentalist Christian
Sick attacks on reality
One other thing
I have never had a thread to thread with Andrew Q
See how devious he is . . . that he attacks me in this
See how insidous these EXGAYS?
John K I thought you WERE from exgay(dot)com.
You said “Fudge has always made me feel sick”
I thought you were calling gays fudge.
That is why I said say it to my face.
If that is not the case then I am sorry
However, I will say that faith schools should be illegal to anyone’s face. It bloody well IS child abuse. (cf Nicholas Humphrey’s article: ‘what shall we tell the children’ for more on why this is the case) It’s indoctrination and sectarian – you would think Norhtern Ireland would have taught people that lesson….
If you can sue for the long-term mental damage caused by physical child abuse – as many former alter boys have done, in Catholic dioceses from Brighton to Brazil, why should you not sue for the long-term mental damage caused by mental child abuse? I hope gay people queue up to sue for damages and defamation.
@Andrew Q: I misread JohnK like that AND I APOLOGISE TO HIM NOW AND RECALL THE ATTACK-FAIRIES!
I believe exgaywatch monitors the distortions put out by the fundies.
As far as the content of the article goes, it suggests that faith schools can opt out of their duty of care to protect LGBT students from the bigots the school has encouraged. And all supported by our taxes – can we really call them schools as opposed to indoctrination camps?!
I don’t understand the mentality of parents who pretend to be a certain religion in order to get their kids into these schools. What’s so great about a sectarian school where your kids are taught about hell and how kids who believe in other faiths or gay people are going to be sent there? And that’s even before the balderdash taught in sex-ed.
I’d sooner take my chances in a mixed school further down the league table where kids are taught that the world is made up of many different people and excluding them doesn’t solve anything.
How do these schools manage to climb the league tables anyhow? Is it the selection process?
Well, this is evidence enough that state religion should be disestablished. One country did it quite recently, oddly enough Italy in 1982 I think. Remove state religion and get government and tax payer pounds out of the hands of religious cults such as the C of E and RCC and their schools. If people want their children educated by religious cultists, let them pay for it. Religion is a choice, learned behaviour, sexual orientation isn’t. If it is, let the ex-gay cults prove that a heterosexual can be successfully converted to a gay orientation, just to prove that change is possible, and lets see the hard evidence published in the legitimate scientific literature with controlled studies and replicated in other countries.
Apologise accepted guys
A funny aside . . .
There is one area where we need to be sriaght
Who is Gay and who is Exgay on here
Don’t ask me to play the role of secretary and to keep track of the statistics, but I’m 100% gay; I was broken but now I’m saved (by the Kinsey Report), and I wouldn’t change a thing.
I love my partner very, very deeply and he loves me, and I would move the tectonic plates of the planet if I could to prove by such a feat that it is perfectly normal and fulfilling to be gay.
Nice one. You could have added from Newfoundland to Boston to Texas to San Francisco, and let’s not forget the damage done to the Canadian Native population whose children were forcibly taken from their families and sent to special ‘reform’ schools in order to teach them the ways of their white, christian masters who ‘stole’ -there’s no other word- their land. The First Nations are now attempting to reclaim the land under the entire city of Vancouver from the Canadian government. !!!
Mihangel ap Yrs:
Are you saying that these faith schools are subsidized by the taxes of the entire British population, and not only by the taxes of the parents who send their children to these ‘indoctrination camps’? I smell reform in the air.
Why is my entire image of Great Britain falling apart like a jigsaw puzzle that was years in the making?
You are quite right to raise this anomoly, reform I agree is needed; and this news had the same Jigsaw effect on me. . . unfortunately the analogy I immediatey thought of was one of clearing up a cancer only to then insert cancerous cells into other healthy tissue.
You peception was astute in the first instance . . . unfortunately
i was more or less forced by my parents to go to a faith school and not only did they say i’m wrong as a person but schools like that do nothing about bullying, have the government every thought about that? if this goes ahead then even less homophobic bullying will be ignored!!!
sorry — even MORE homophobic bulying will be ignored
Whoa, congrats on creating a useless – nay, damaging – law, guys! I’m sick of cultists and fundamentalists, and I’m sick of the government pandering to them. A right to deny the rights of others is not a right. The opinions of sickos and bigots should be rigourously ignored.
I have one question and that is how can we stop this?
How can we stop this?
The answer is right in front of your eyes.
Get in touch with John Hunt(through PinkNews) and sign the petition asking Her Majesty to choose between being Head of State or Head of the Church of England.
I have a photograph of QE2 walking her dogs at Balmoral, wearing a plain overcoat, a kerchief on her head and a pair of rubber boots. It’s my favorite perception of her.
Is it not possible that she is just waiting to be asked to be relieved of such unbearable responsibility?
What is the point of having antidiscrimination legislation passed by Parliament and becoming law of the land IF you than allow these schools to get away with homophobia!!!! The sooner we have a truely secular society the better for all!!
“What is the point of having antidiscrimination legislation passed by Parliament and becoming law of the land IF you than allow these schools to get away with homophobia!!!! The sooner we have a truely secular society the better for all!!”
Quite right, and all the more reason for lgbt people to join the National Secular Society which has this as one of its main aims.
and people here will, I’m sure, still claim that Liebour love Queers…
Cameron to march at Pride, Boris already done it, a Right Wing leader in France pusing Queer rotes and in this country a suposidly ‘left wing’ goverment doing this?
I’m sick and tired of bigots hiding behind so called beliefs, HATRED, BIGOTRY, is wrong WRONG WRONG!!! Government STOP giving these out-dated, out of touch institutions the right to spread hatred. Will this mean that if a young adult comes out at school, they will be expelled, that the bigotted teachers will turn a blind eye to bullying if its of a gay kid? What is next, public stoning in the playground if you’re gay? Horrendous
Maybe we should name and shame schools or, in extreme cases, bigoted school teachers? A dedicated website to this effect would be a good idea. Defaming and attacking gay people in their deepest integrity must stop. I think some kind of demo will be necessary too. The government is letting LGBT young people down badly.
Reading Pink News these days is becoming so predictable. Yet another tiresome story of bigotry, so cue the familiar suspects waiting in the wings to rain down their own brand of fire and brimstone onto the ignorant and great unwashed. When will you lot finally realise that ranting and raving is not going to change the mass Christian perception of us one iota, so why can’t people on here just change the record and approach these stories of intolerance in a more sophisticated and enlightened way? Think about it. The important thing to remember is that there is one distinct difference between being born “that way” (i.e. gay) and being born as a human being that has no choice about the religion they will be brainwashed into. If we approached our argument from this perspective, we would in fact gain the upper hand in all such arguments. The religious argument collapses when it is clear that homosexuality is nature, not nurture, and that unlike us they have the choice to break out of the rigid programming that is, after all, designed only to divide people into groups that have, through the ages, sought to kill and destroy one another through their perverted dogma and claptrap. Shouldn’t we in fact practice compassion to these poor lost souls, who through religion have had the fear of God drummed into them and so end up living miserable lives? At least we can be out and proud instead of covertly having it away in the cloisters and between the pews with choir boys and, God forbid, beneath each others’ habits!! Why stoop to their level every time and get hysterical every time some daft news story like this crops up? If we really want equality, then the term “live and let live” should apply to us as much as to them!!
Codex, I don’t care what they think. I do care about LGBT people suffering unnecessarily in silence. It’s time it stopped.
In fact I want to be despised and hated by bigots who think young LGBT people should be made to feel guilt, shame and self-hatred for who they are, and should be denied what the full knowledge of sex education.
Children are captives at school, they have no control over what they are going to be taught, or indoctrinated with.
I’m not going to f**king well live and let live while the government gives a licence for bigotry. Do it in your name by all means but dont involve me in it.
You are involving yourself in in, AdrianT, by reducing yourself to the same level ranting bigoted tolerance as displayed by our oppessors. But their intolerance is borne out of fear and ignorance whereas as gay people we know who we are is also what we are and so we should take a more enlightened, even compassionate response. If only you could see how the tone of your words puts you on their level, perhaps even lower. You do yourself and our community no favours, and it is frankly boring.
Codex, I’m happy to live and let live to a certain extent, but when people’s personal beliefs spill over into prejudice and hate, then that’s different. Same with free speech – there are limits.
So much for secular schooling, we’ll be bringing back the birch next! Religion is a lifestyle choice and one that due to the dangers of fundamentalism should be strictly restricted to consenting adults only!
One wonders how many men would choose to keep their foreskins! and how many women would reject Purdah?
Codex – It doesn’t matter how sophisticated you think your argument is, you’re still preaching to the choir about the nature nurture thing. Religious zealots won’t back down for as long as there’s the likes of NARTH telling them that gayness is either a choice or a disease.
We’ve used that on them 100 times on these threads and they either willfully ignore it or deflect it by making out that they were born under Christ our lord, or somesuch circular logic. The religious homophobia meme won’t back down overnight just because you focus on the nature nurture debate. I should know, I used to be Church of England myself.
Let them teach that the moon is made of green cheese and that elves live under toadstools in their gardens if they wish; but they must not receive a penny of public money, and they must be clobbered under the discrimination laws if they harass or otherwise mistreat any staff, pupils or parents who challenge or criticise their teaching in open debate.
And are faith schools also entitled to teach xenophobia and killing non-disciples if that is “in line with their religious beliefs”?
This sounds like a homophobic attempt to enshrine homophobia in homophobic legislation.
Light comes from heat, Codex. If you want to show love and compassion for bullies and bigots, and let them get away with this, which is what you’re essentially calling for, well be my guest.
I’d rather stand by the people who are being victimised, psychologically abused and made to feel excluded for no other reason than because they are gay. There is no excuse for this; it’s been 35 years since science answered all these questions.
I don’t love my enemies – I don’t follow such stupid, immoral teachings. Too right I’m intolerant – tolerance is not a virtue in and of itself. Standing up for justice is.
I suggest you get used to the fact that others can also be offended, and will be prepared to express their contempt at the Church’s stupid teachings, especially when captive children are concerned.
Speaking of captive children, there’s an interesting item in today’s Associated Press written by Nicole Winfield and entitled: ‘Pope says he’s sorry for abuse at church-run native Canadian schools’.
Briefly, Phil Fontaine, a lawyer and Chief of Canada’s First Nations, has been to the Vatican and his holiness has publicly expressed his regrets that native children were torn from their families by catholic missionaries and contained in ‘reform schools’ to teach them the ways and religion of their white masters.
If you’ll bear with me for a minute, a personal excuse from the pope for the damage done to generations of the First Nations of Canada is like making a photo shoot of giving the Natives a small bag of sparkling glass beads in exhange for countless billions of square miles of prime Canadian land.
The pope, as head of the Vatican, needs to say a tad more than: ‘Sorry about that’, followed by an expression of self-serving sorrow.
His holinass needs to publicly admit that the RCC was wrong, I repeat wrong, and cruel and intolerant.
In terms of their own ‘Gospel values’, the RCC should be burnt at the stake like they did for countless centuries with heretics and ‘sodomites’.
In fact, by today’s standards, his holiness should be held accountable at the Hague for these atrocities.
That’s what it would take to make the scales fall from the eyes of the world’s 1.1 billion catholics and send self-important prelates of all kinds running for their Pepto-Bismal.
With all due respect to Chief Phil Fontaine, how can the First Nations continue to be duped by the Vatican’s mask of civility and rhetoric?
On the off-chance that you cannot see the connection between this story and the subject of this thread, the UK is forcing children from their families to teach them how to behave like civilized homophobic white bigots.
There is no better way for human beings to develop than by ranting among ourselves about issues that concern us.
You have a few good points, I must admit, but you are sadly mistaking by attacking the brilliant comments made by my friends on this thread. You sound like a bloody snob.
I grew up knowing I was gay from the age of 5 or 6 – certainly as long as I can remember.
I was educated in a particularly poor “faith” school, where Jesus loved all children, apart from the one’s who did dreadful things to one another in the lavvies.
Naturally we all need to be part of this huge scheme of things we call society, and to try to conform to its standards and so after a disasterously failed marriage, two children later, who both carry the scars of their father’s mis-doings, I am now with my civil partner and am so happy.
But at what cost? I carry the guilt daily thanks to my being made to feel disgusting and less than human by our so-called Christian teachers.
What a dreadful thing this government is doing!
this is appauling
the gouvement has the duty to protect all citizens against the lies of religions
we are born gay generation after generation nothing is passed on
religious lies are indoctrnation and taught
STOP THE LIES NOW
What’s the matter, cat got your tongue?
Or are you afraid that your posts these days are becoming so predictable … waiting in the wings to rain down your own brand of fire and brimstone onto the ignorant and the great unwashed?
Maybe a more sophisticated and enlightened approach would prevent you from stooping to our level of hysteria every time homophobia raises its ugly head.
You’ve got more nerve than the C of E has empty pews.
What’s wrong with telling children that contraception, divorce, abortion and gay sex are wrong? They are wrong.
Because, Louise, it’s one thing telling other people your/your religion’s opinions on morality, but quite another telling people that WHO THEY ARE is ‘wrong’. Not only is it completely illogical, it’s nasty, vicious and prejudiced.
People are born gay, just as they are born black, white, Asian… They can’t be ‘wrong’ anymore than being Asian can be ‘wrong’.
“What’s wrong with telling children that contraception, divorce, abortion and gay sex are wrong? They are wrong.”
Louise why is gay sex wrong and heterosexual sex ok?
Rot. Just because someone is inclined to do something stupid, like sticking their penis (part of the reproductive system) into someone else’s digestive tract (either end), doesn’t mean they have to act on it. The act is wrong and the inclination itself is disordered – obviously, if you bother to think about it – but they don’t have to act on their impulses. Gay people should have the same basic rights as everyone else, but abusing someone else’s body and their own is not a basic right.
Heterosexual acts are ordered to procreation – as nature intended. Love, sex, marriage and procreation are all meant to form a cohesive whole and greatly foster human dignity.
There is nothing illogical in what I write. Your own arguments, such as they are, are illogical.
I’m sorry, but reason and faith are on the same side and both declare that you are wrong.
Louise it is very intersting what you have to say on this matter.
So are you saying that:
All homosexuals engage in anal intercourse?
All heterosexuals no not engage in anal intercourse?
Sex is intended primarily, biologically, for the procreation of children. Gay sex thwarts this.
When heterosexuals engage in anal sex it is also wrong.
Are you trying to convince me that most homosexuals do not have anal sex, incidentally?
“I was educated in a particularly poor “faith” school, where Jesus loved all children, apart from the one’s who did dreadful things to one another in the lavvies.”
Which pretty much tells you everything that’s bad about gay behaviour. Why would anyone have sex in the toilet? That’s just gross. The heterosexuals used to have enough self control, in the main, to find more salubrious environments for fornication.
What is a good Catholic girl like you, Louise, doing, thinking obsessively about gay sex, which – you claim – disgusts you?
Other people’s affairs, and pursuit of happiness, are none of your f**king business. In fact, instead of harrassing people who cause you no harm, how about doing something to stop priests from your own flock abusing little boys? Make a fuss about Cormac Murphy O Connor, shunting child molesters from diocese to diocese, and all the other bishops making quiet pay offs, confidentiality orders, intimidating witnesses, instead of reporting them to the police. An institution wholly focused on protecting its own, really isn’t it?
In any case, there is no evidence we are ‘made’ to have sex for the sole purpose of passing on DNA. There is plenty of evidence we have evolved to enjoy sex for recreational reasons.
From Louise’s blog – “I like to think I’m a nice person… but I may be wrong. ”
You may well be wrong.
“I talk to a lot of people I can’t see: God, Mary the Mother of God, numerous saints, and my guardian angel. This keeps me sane.”
That really says it all.
Now that’s more like it! Personal abuse. Gotta love the Tolerance Diversity Respect!
I was happily surprised to see a civil discourse here and then AdrianT turned up. Adrian knows he is in the wrong, so he abuses people who tell him so.
You see, Adrian, your little spewfest here demonstrates why it is that we’re all getting really sick of gays.
“What is a good Catholic girl like you, Louise, doing, thinking obsessively about gay sex, which – you claim – disgusts you?”
Making a few comments on an online article which denies the rights of parents (and schools) to teach our children our own beliefs, is “thinking obsessively about gay sex”?
I think perhaps you are the one who thinks about it obsessively.
Let’s check out AdrianT’s logic. Because I haven’t complained about Cormac Murphy O’Connor even though I’m in Australia, therefore I have no right to talk about something completely different. Right.
Louise . . . your views are curious there is a lot about what sex should and should not be.
Reality is very different. You display how very little knowledge you really have about heterosexuality let alone what homosexuals actually may or may not do in bed
Louise this is why it is very important to give Children accurate information about sex and relationships at school
Sick of me already? Oh really, I’ve hardly got my trousers off with you Louise – more congress to come if you stick around, I can assure you. Damn right – I’m not tolerant in your case; you don’t deserve it.
You are the one who referred to the detailed mechanics of gay sex, not I – amazing how nutcases like you see all love and relationships in such mechanical, Darwinian terms. Fropm your posting, it’s clearly the first thing you think about when it comes to gay people.
You whine like an injured dog about personal attacks – I don’t understand why though. Surely if you boast about talking to imaginary friends who do not exist, on your ludicrous blog, you must be proud of such an accusation. Face the consequences, and as your supposed saviour said in Matt 5:11, expect to be mocked for your stupidity, when others find your beliefs to be ridiculous (or arguably, ‘murderously ridiculous’ when it concerns beliefs about whether people in Arfica should use condoms).
It is amazing, indeed, how people like you have nothing to say about cases where people are harmed by sexual abuse, but everything to say about consenting adults, who find happiness and love, and who mean no harm to anyone else. It just shows how poisonous your faith is. ‘Even though I’m in Australia’ makes no odds. Holy child abuse is a world-wide enterprise isn’t it?
Anyway, the whole of the medical world all disagree with you – being gay is perfectly natural. That’s what experts who are qualified to talk about these matters say. If you have superior knowledge about these matters, why waste your time on here, instead of presenting it to a scientific journal like the Lancet, or the BMJ?
“You see, Adrian, your little spewfest here demonstrates why it is that we’re all getting really sick of gays.”
Louise – That’s exactly how we feel talking to Catholic zealots, but I have to say you started it. I don’t recall gatecrashing your church and telling you I don’t approve of your catholic lifestyle, but plenty of right wing religious zealots come to this site to share their little spewfests with us, when they’re not lobbying goverment to recriminalise gay acts and take our basic rights away. The most you get from us is a message to get your tanks off our lawn.
BTW I’m confused why you imagine breeding is a gainful activity given the sheer amount of overpopulation the earth is currently suffering. You’d think we’d get some credit for not attempting to conceive yet more unwanted kids every time we cop off but apparently according to your leader, god wants the human race to jam up every square inch of the earth’s surface and drown in our own detritus. If sex for fun is sinful, then I’ll book my place in hell now, thankyou.
I’m afraid I suffer from my own brand of intolerance.
For example, I cannot tolerate the epithet ‘unnatural’ when speaking about homosexuality. Those who use it mean only that a sexual act is non-procreative.
But, if we call all pleasurable activities that are not physiologically necessary unnatural, we would have, for instance,
to apply the term to a taste for music.
Is that too subtle for you? Then try this: are married heterosexual couples committing a mortal sin when they engage in a sexual relationship if one of them is sterile? or too old to have or want children?
As for AdrianT’s reaction, with which I agree by the way, it is really not fair of you to harrass him and then blame him when he gets upset. Not only is it unfair, it’s downright childish, the kind of behavior you would expect to find in kindergarten, and it is typically feminine.
Moreover, you are free to teach whatever you want in catholic schools as long as you don’t expect the Australian population as a whole to subsidize your endoctrination camps with their taxes.
You should be teaching your religion in the basements of your churches on the off-chance that they are not infected with black mold as a result of neglect in favor of ‘spiritual enlightnment’.
And don’t forget to say a word of gratitude to the slavish volunteer-teachers who struggle with pastoral committees, discontented parents and apathetic pastors to obtain a few basic teaching supplies.
Finally, and if you are catholic and aware that the pope has written a declaration that homosexuals are to be treated with respect and compassion, can you explain to me why homosexuality is mentioned in the new catechism in the same chapter as prostitution, incest and pedophilia? What kind of respect and compassion is that?
It’s like talking from both sides of your mouth, and it is only one of the factors that explain why we presently have one of the most unpopular popes in the history of the church who insists on going from one blunder to another, and who lately has taken up the habit of wearing makeup and padded shoulders to give himself, an 82 year old celibate man who thinks he knows more about homosexuality than homosexuals do – which is exactly what you think – an appearance of mental health.
Until you grow up and face the reality that the RCC is basically interested in raking in the collection on Sunday mornings from uninformed cradle catholics held in awe by mystical notions of sanctity and an everlasting never-never land where everything will smell like roses and where the ‘saved’ will be entertained by looking at the poor souls suffering for all eternity in the flames and stench of hell, you will feel more and more isolated, as does the pope at this very minute.
You are not the first to harrass us, and to tell you the truth, it is only giving us valuable exercise in confronting future harrassement from people like you, LouLou, who are basically unfulfilled by the thin air of a spirituality inspired by the misinterpretation of the teachings of Jesus Christ, summed up in the Golden Rule.
Jean Paul -
As a friend, while I agree with most of what you wrote, this statement has “light the touchpaper and stand well back” written all over it…
“Not only is it unfair, it’s downright childish, the kind of behavior you would expect to find in kindergarten, and it is typically FEMININE.”[my emphasis]
Please don’t undermine a good argument by throwing in sexist asides… trust me, you’re heading for a full scale flaming if you persue that line, and not just from Louise!
Thank you, my friend, that is good advice, and I want to apologize right away because I’m sure I have offended women for no good reason.
I have many, many great women friends and they too would slap me behind the head and tell me to smarten up.
I got carried away, perhaps because LouLou reminds me of woman I once knew who literally drove her husband into chronic alcoholism and violent behavior, her and her rosary made of pieces from the real cross, and hysterically sprinkling holy water all over the windows during a thunder storm, and sticking up dozens of holy pictures in the shed where he took solace, and gossiping about which trollop is carrying whose baby, and whose son ‘walks kinda funny’.
It’s anybody’s guess what the RCC would be without its women. They easily compose 95% of church employees, are paid a pittance to work a 6-day week, and they cannot look forward to a pension because there is no pension for RCC employees.
They voluntarily prepare countless receptions for funerals, they dust the woodwork in the churches, they are in every imaginable committee at parish, diocesan, national and internationl level, and you never hear them complain.
They are good, decent persons who smile even when they are in pain, they visit the sick in the hospitals and in their homes and they bring a tremendous amount of support through fund raisers and through accompagnying the dying.
They voluntarily wash the church linens, they take care of expensive and exquisite liturgical vestments, and they even water the plants in the sanctuary, put up and take down the manger at Christmas time and prepare the liturgies for holy week, not to mention that church choirs are composed mostly of women who rehearse and sing with hardly a word of recognition year after year.
Moreover, on an intellectual and spiritual level, there are more nuns than bishops with doctorates in theology, and no-one understands their mission in the church more than women do which is only one reason why I believe women would make fine priests and bishops, and should have a shot at the papacy.
But that is no excuse for my ignorance. You’re right Flapjack, and I am prepared to be humiliated for what I wrote.
The fact remains that it is not up to the RCC to tell us what we are as homosexuals. I am a homosexual and I can tell the RCC what it means to be a homosexual, not the other way round.
Moreover, I repeat that the pope’s pastoral letter advising catholics to respect and to have compassion for homosexuals is meaningless as long as it is presented in the catechism in the same paragraph as incest, prostitution and pedophilia.
It is also meaningless because persons like LouLou are still cruel and intolerant enough to write to a gay website and to spew her homophobia all over decent human beings who are gay and who are not harming anyone.
Finally, I believe that the catholic women in her own parish would take an ax to her computer if they were aware of how she is sinfully harassing gays. Harassing gays and teaching homophobia to children has nothing to do with the teachings of Jesus Christ and it certainly has nothing to do with the mission of women in the church, a great many of whom have given birth to and have buried GLBT children.
Finally, Louise, shame on you for taking it onto yourself, like a common upstart, to ruin the RCC’s pastoral preoccupation for the mental health of its homosexual population who give as much, if not more money to the church and its mission than you do.
I won’t mention the fact that there is such a thing as an active gay priest, bishop, cardinal and what have you, and that the therapy available to them is pitiful.
There’s lots more where that came from LouLou, go ahead and make my day!
JP – She’s welcome to harrass as much as she likes on here. It’s a forum with a world wide reach after all, and there’s always going to be some maniac who needs to inform us they intimately know god’s mind on who we should sleep with, and in which position. And so, Louise should expect to be ridiculed for such arrogant stupidity.
Far from being ‘upset’ – I see it as an obligation to tell Louise and other nutcases like her, who think they should have a say in other people’s private arrangements and extinguish the pursuit of happiness, to f**k off and mind their own business. There is nothing more to be said, the message cannot be repeated enough, and it’s an oblication I undertake with relish. :-)
“Sex is intended primarily, biologically, for the procreation of children. Gay sex thwarts this.
When heterosexuals engage in anal sex it is also wrong.
Are you trying to convince me that most homosexuals do not have anal sex, incidentally?
“I was educated in a particularly poor “faith” school, where Jesus loved all children, apart from the one’s who did dreadful things to one another in the lavvies.”
Which pretty much tells you everything that’s bad about gay behaviour. Why would anyone have sex in the toilet? That’s just gross. The heterosexuals used to have enough self control, in the main, to find more salubrious environments for fornication.”
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
Sex is for pleasure and procreation, gays and straights engage in both.
Anal sex in heterosexuality is a wide spread a sexual practice as it is in homosexuality.
Some heterosexuals go cruising in public spaces just as some homosexuals do.
70 years of formal sexual research . . . seems to have passed you by . . . whys is this so?
As I said earlier
You seem to display enormous ignorance and lack of awareness about your own sexuality which I assume from your blog is heterosexual
O dear . . . Mr Catholic education seems to have been a very limited and restricted preparation for the realities of modern living.
Following my immature remark about femininity in my post 60, I feel I need to apologize to you directly. I’m truly sorry, and I have learned a valuable lesson.
In all fairness, I need to add that I am very well aware of the abuse and domestic violence many, many women undergo in the course of their lives.
My partner is a member of the Board of Directors of ‘Passage House’, a government funded refuge for women who have been physically, mentally or spiritually abused by their husbands or live-in partners.
I dread the evenings when the Board has its monthly meetings. He usually arrives home crying after the meetings because of the files which were discussed and which he cannot share with me nor anyone else except the local police department the following day.
My point being that men are more aggressive than women and they so often do not deserve the love of a woman.
Still, I wrote something stupid in the heat of the moment and I am a sitting duck. Go ahead and give me both barrels…
Louise . . . yeah yeah yeah
You come on here shouting your mouth of then get upset when people start to challange you. . . why is that?
You think you can come on here and spout homophobic heterosexist bigotry and go unchallange. . . you may have got away with this before but you won’t on this site
Get used to it
Jean Paul – Well deflected that man! Just thought I’d jump in there with a timely reminder before you got toasted…
Men – whether you are gay or straight – follow Jesus Christ. He has a job for you to do. He wants you for a job that *only* you can do.
Women – whether you are gay or straight – follow Christ. He loves you and will never let you down. Everyone else you have ever loved has let you down. Everyone you will ever love will let you down some day. Christ will never let you down. He loves you.
We could argue all this other stuff til the cows come home, and if your online publication insists on writing articles which advocate the suppression of real human rights, like being able to educate your children the way you think is best, then you can expect people like me to come here and dispute your claims.
None of which alters the fact that Christ, Who is Lord of all, wants you to follow Him.
God bless you all.
Louise – Christ will never let me down on account of him being deceased for 1976 years and counting. I don’t rely on dead dudes for anything as it’s not like you can call them in a crisis. And I don’t do praying for the same reason I don’t do seances.
Been there, done that. Worked out about the same success rate as asking the Easter bunny to intervene.
Worked out about the same success rate as asking the Easter bunny to intervene.
Why do you say that? What went wrong?
Louise – are you familiar with a well documented phenonemon called the placebo effect whereby any gains made from swallowing a pill are easily attributed to imagining that it made you better?
That was more or less my experience of 15 years of religion, except a better analogy to use the old maxim “god looks after those who look after themselves”.
In mathematics, you can balance that equation more effectively by removing god from it altogether as the end result is the same whether you invoked him or not, and in actual fact time spent praying to god is time better spent sorting out your own problems. I’d go further than that by saying relying on god’s intervention undermined my ability to cope with reality, and it took a long while to shift that mental state of co-dependance. I think 15 years is more than enough time to test the truth value of a religion, and for me it just didn’t work.
I can’t think of a single occasion when my prayers were answered in any tangeable way. I also read several psychology textbooks which said religion actually undermines self-esteem, and regularly chanting “We are not so worthy as to gather up thy crumbs under thy table oh merciful lord” didn’t exactly give me any kind of confidence boost.
As for Pascal’s wager, there are way too many “one true religions” out there past and present to have any guarantee that you’ve backed the right one, even on the offchance any of it is true. Indeed Christianity cut and pasted elements from several pre-existing cults. Ever wondered why the eucharist has so much cannibalistic symbolism? Why Jesus’s biog shares so much in common with Mithras or Apollo? When I looked into the anthropological precedents these parallels were staring me in the face.
Besides which, several thousand years of moral philosophy distilled into the golden rule is all the morality I need. No god required.
Most people I know become agnostics/atheists after they realise they don’t want to serve God any more. There are few, if any, who have gone on to live the same kind of life they once did, but just without God. They invariably choose a life in opposition to His teaching.
If I ever desert Christ, no doubt I will also put down every religious experience I had to psychology etc.
Your explanation of your rejection of Christ is just as subjective as any recounting of religious experiences I might make in defence of the Catholic faith. It’s not very convincing. And the intellectual matters you raise are even less so.
If the Golden Rule is your morality, why do you object to people raising their own children as they see fit?
Also, you can take J-P to task over his unflattering remarks about women on your own behalf. I really don’t care.
And while I see a lack of civil discourse here (in general) as lamentable in itself, I did not expect anything better.
None of this alters the fact that Christ is calling to each one of you here and will keep calling until you take your dying breath; so faithful is He.
I live in His service, which I consider to be an honour and a privelege, yet others may not think the same. That is their choice, but some here will wonder and wonder if perhaps God is calling to them. He is.
Every time you pass a church, or pass a Catholic church where He Himself is present in the Blessed Sacrament, every time you hear His name, ever time you hear a Christmas carol, or the words “God save the Queen” or see an Atheist bus sign, which of necessity must mention the very person they claim not to believe – He is calling you. He is calling you now.
Louise, whatever floats your boat;
However, until you can come up with a good reason why I should believe you – how you are so intimate with Jesus that you know his plan for me (some claim by the way) – I can’t believe you.
I accept that god, Jesus, hell (and till recently, ‘Limbo’) are very real in the minds of believers. There are as many gods and Jesuses are there are people, or ever have been – you all talk about a ‘personal saviour’. On what authority do you make the exclusive claim that your personal saviour is the one to be accepted?
As Carl Sagan once put it, ‘Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.’
I am glad there is no Big Brother in the sky, watching our every move, ready to convict us of thought crime, and condemning us at the end of this life to a state of eternal praise, in a celestial North Korea. Thank goodness this is not true!
I am glad there is no Big Brother in the sky, watching our every move
But as you say (quoting some guy I’ve never heard of) “Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.”
If that be so, where’s yours that He doesn’t exist?
In fact, the evidence for the existence of God, the deity of Christ and the authority of the Catholic Church is very good and compelling unless one has an axe to grind, which is typically the case.
It’s not possible to make the case fully in a comment form, and neither would a rational person expect it to be, but suppose I could convince you of the intellectual reasons for belief – would you change your tune?
Follow Christ, He has a job for you to do.
Well the atheist position is really, that there is no reason to believe in god. How do I disprove Posiedon or the gods as listed by young flapjack, above? The Universe seems to work very well without such an assumption. of course, if there were a prime mover, then how would we explain what caused that, ad infinitum? Positing a deity only pushes the problem a stage further back – a problem which is better explained by Evolutino.
If a highly complex being existed forever, well, it’s much easier to say a simple piece of DNA existed forever.
Still, I’m prepared to look at your evidence. If you have it, let’s hear it. But you would be the first person in history to prove any existence. Over to you….
Why is it that you ignore Lesbians and only focus on gay men.
When you spin you threads on this site you will have your homophobia, heterosexism and bigotry challanaged.
Which bit of this do you not understand.
If you want to preach . . . go and train as a priest.
Louise – If you think you can hear god, that’s fine by me, just don’t expect me to hear inaudible voices whenever I look at a church. I might appreciate the architecture, I may even like some of the tunes but it’s a giant leap from appreciating that to saying “god spoke directly to me or anyone else involved in this religious enterprise”.
When most folks hear voices, they get perscribed some heavy phorosine. In fact I have a bi-polar friend who spent an entire week two months ago thinking he WAS god, and whatever you may think of that, at least he had evidence of his own existence on his side.
Anything else is simply infering god from everything you see around you, which hardly counts as “exhibit A” if you’re building a watertight case. And why your specific god anyhow? It’s a crowded god market out there. I could imagine a big invisible purple dinosaur made the grass and the trees, it doesn’t make it true. (He’s only purple to people who truly believe he’s there!)
I don’t mean to be rude here, but with so little empirical evidence, isn’t it a bit presumptious to start interfering with other people’s lovelives on the mandate of a hypothetical being who hasn’t even been proven to exist?
Thank you for your posts 68 and 70 where I truly felt you had progressed to the spirit of honest dialogue so badly needed between numerous catholic dissidents of all kinds and the episcopal authorities of the RCC. Really, I was moved by your attitude.
However, in your post 72 you have returned to the bitter attitude with which you began this whole thing.
I’ll try to be brief. In whose name are you speaking? Have you received a mandate from the CWL, from your pastor or bishop Pell, or from the Catholic Youth Day Movement? Or are you, and I’m not trying to be unkind, an isolated faithful Catholic reading outdated books on mystical theology that are far beyond your capacity to understand? You are surely not reading the exquisite teachings of the Little Flower.
I am familiar with catechetics and with papal pastoral letters, as you well know by now, and frankly, I am disappointed by your lack of respect for the official teachings of the RCC with regards to the proper and charitable attitude recommended to the faithful concerning homosexuality (and lesbianism, etc.).
Also, I am disappointed that my public apology for my comment regarding feminity has bounced off you like water off a duck’s back. Incidentally, I spoke with my older sister about the matter and she laughed. She said that as we were growing up she constantly pushed my buttons and roared with laughter when she saw me crying. Disfunctional family? Is there any other kind? I won’t repeat what my sister told me to tell you.
Perhaps a novena to the Sacred Heart of Divine Mercy would enlighten you not to throw the Golden Rule in our faces when you so blatantly refuse to apply to it to us or to the catholic children who will have to face the real world with an attitude of homophobia, scientifically proven to be a mental illness, if you had your way with them.
Finally, you are very fortunate that you can post your comments on this website in anonimity, because if I ever find out who you really are (you may not even be a Louise or a woman, right?), then I would know exactly who to contact in your parish and have your pastor call you into his office for a little chat that would leave you feeling about yea high.
Just one more tiny little detail, if you’ll bear with me for a moment.
Concerning my nasty remark about feminity about which I apologized publicly, received not a word of rebuke from any other woman on this thread, and am reminded by you that you do not accept my apology, that makes you an unforgiving person.
Take a minute to recite the Lord’s prayer and ponder the meaning of the phrase: ‘forgive us as we forgive those who have offended us.’
Finally, as I said in my last post, we have no proof that you are a woman, or that you actually live in Australia for that matter.
Surely you are not one of those self-important Knights of Columbus crusaders wearing those ridiculous colored plumes in your chapeaus, and those satin lined capes that sway so elegantly when you walk trying to balance the weight of ‘truth’ represented by a polished silver sword, and whose main contribution to their parish is to organize the weekly bingo and throw together a turkey supper from time to time while the rest of you are upstairs lining up at the open bar and gambling away the hours, trying to figure out how much money your life insurance company has brought into your bountiful coffers so far this year?
And surely you are not living somewhere near me by any chance, living in a broken marriage and trying desperately to sell an oversized house whose heating bills will have you bankrupt within a year, unable even to pay your Internet connection which has been delighting you with some of the most graphic and professionnal triple X pornography the world has ever seen before saying your evening prayers that God will grant you a wet dream overnight?
And surely you are not the guy who was thrown out of a catechism class for describing the pains of hell to 7-year-olds instead of following the agenda of the pastoral committee, and wasn’t your mother’s name Louise?
What’s the matter? Cat got your tongue?
There I go being unkind again…
Lou-u-u-u-u-ise! Where are you my little scorpion?
Don’t forget to send me a Christmas card advising me that you have paid for the salvation of my soul by having 30 masses said for me in the holy land. I just love those gold-embossed fictional images of the risen lord. It makes everything the RCC teaches so precious and expensive, so indisputable, so infallible. And they are just the thing to help me barf after I’ve had too much turkey and cranberry sauce.
Lou-u-u-u-u-i-i-i-i-se, or should I say Ricki-i-i-e, where are you? Are you out looking for a blow job at the Tea-Room at the Mall? What would Jeanie say if you knew what you were up to? Remember what happened the last time she found XXX pornography on your computer?
Come out, come out, wherever you are. Try to be a man like your twin brother who knows how to make and keep friends, and is not inclined to drink his hourly shot of straight whiskey from a crystal tunbler, and whose job is not hanging by a thread.
Oh, don’t you know what your fellow employees are saying about you? Sorry, me and my big mouth!
By the way, I paid a technician 20 bucks to remove the tracking cookie you so deviously succeeded in installing on my browser, which is no doubt how you found this website. It sure ain’t like the old days when you got me hooked on hashish, eh Rick, and made me waste years of my life?
So who are you going to torment next? Try the Mormons. They put up a good fight, but faith and reason are on your side, worry pas.
Let us agree, for the sake of argument, that homosexuality, as is said by the Catholic Church, and by Ratzinger in particular, is intrinsically disordered; not in itself sinful but leading to acts which, objectively, are immoral, regardless of context or intention.
Let us also say that most homosexual people experience that orientation as part of (their) creation, part of their being who they are, “I am what I am..”
Then, if we accept that teaching of the church, they must see God as having created them with sadistic delight in orienting them to that ultimate evil..
“I am going to create you with this huge ‘boulder’ (homosexuality with consequent enforced celibacy) to carry thoughout your life..Drop it once… and I will have your guts for garters…”..saith the Lord.
It means that homosexuals are specifically designed for a fall, specifically designed TO fall, specifically designed to make the numbers up in Hell.
I cannot believe in a God like that, Louise; more, I WON’T and haven’t for the last 50 years since that thought suddenly came into my mind half way thro’ mass.
That thought so overwhelmed me with its clarity that I asked myself, “What the eff AM I doing here in this place (church) yet again crying and bleating and praying to the Lord?! About WHAT?! Praying about WHAT?! The way He made me?!”
That was in 1959 and I have never been back..and until someone can give an answer that satisfies ME, I never shall.
TU ES LA…?
OR IS IT ‘BONJOUR’ IN YOUR NECK OF THE WOODS…
I AM ACADIAN, NOT FRENCH. ONLY SAY BONJOUR WHEN YOU’RE TRYING TO CREATE A DISTANCE BETWEEN YOU AND WHOEVER YOU ARE TALKING TO.
IN MY NECK OF THE WOODS WE SAY ‘SALUT’ EITHER TO SAY HELLO OR GOODBYE. IT’S LIKE SAYING ‘ALOHA’ IN CHINA, OR IS THAT HAWAII?
Never been there….!
Oh yes, now I remember!
I have so!
I have been there…!!
In Gilbert and Sullivan’s IOLANTHE…I was ‘young Strephon’…the ‘Acadian, half-fairy, half-shepherd,turned Member of Parliament….or was he from Arcady…?
I jest.!…I am no half-fairy, fully fledged, yes! … half? no!
I’ve been there.
Went on a 3 week trip back in the 70′s and the snow was so high I couldn’t get out the bungalow so I spent the 3 weeks redecorating the place…much to the delight of my hosts.
x…….and JP, drop the writing in capitals…!
YOU’LL UPSET ROB N..!
It’s the INTERNET equivalent of shoutin’, dontcha know..!
The daft bugger..!
Well, thanks to JP now I know who Acadians are. And I thought they were all just Québecois. The things you learn on pinknews……
Eh bien,m je mange mon chapeau.
You scoundrel, you know very well that Acadia has ceased to exist in 1713 when the French colonies in the New World were taken over by the British Board of Trade and His Royal Majesty by the Treaty of Utrect.
We still call ourselves Acadians, and we speak our own brand of French, which is certainly not like the spoken French of our snobby cousins in the province of Québec, because we are the descendants of the first 44 families from France to settle in the New World as a result of Colbert’s economic policy of setting up trading posts where the French could ‘rob’ the native population of exquisite beaver pelts used in the production of the flamboyant ‘chapeaus’ of the French aristocacy of the 17th and 18th centuries.
Our ancestors basically would have gone anywhere on the planet to get away from the ruthless religious conflicts going on in France at the time.
Moreover, we do not consider ourselves ‘French’ because the woes of our peaceful ancestors were primarily brought on by the presence of the French military who could not leave the New Englanders, with whom our ancestors were friendly, alone for any amount of time because of the conflicts between New England and Britain which had repercussions in the colonies.
Also, and at the risk of boring you to death, we do not consider ourselves ‘French’ because the French merchant-stockholders and the royalty forever ‘forgot’ to send supply ships to Acadia so that we survived through the deadly Canadian winters mainly by the generosity of the native Indian population, with whom we still have profound bonds of friendship.
I won’t go into the tragic chapter of the Acadian Deportation which the British military carried out in 1755, on the orders of an upstart commander named Lawrence who acted without the approval of the British Board of Trade or the British Monarchy.
I believe Lawrence went insane a few years later in Halifax and threw himself onto his sword on Christmas Eve, poor thing.
It took the Acadians a long, long time to understand that because as a dispersed population, we had no Universities and only the RC missionaries to constantly remind us of the atrocities of the ‘British heretics’ who deserved to be sent to hell on sight.
That little history lesson is a free sample, but in the future I will be charging $100 dollars a minute. It would be more affordable for you to look it up on Wikipedia free of charge.
On the other hand, if you care to share some of your own Russian background with us, I for one am a big fan of Chekov and a few other Russian artists, especially the exquisitely beautiful male ballet dancers, if you get my drift.
JEAN – PAUL.
You naughty boy!
“Male ballet-dancers”, indeed..!
My Russian background is lost in the mists of time.
But thank you for the history lesson about the Acadians.
I actually learnt summat.
Really, I am as higgerant as they come and in the first instance I actually thought you had spelled ‘CANADIAN’ incorrectly…as ‘ACADIA’.
So there you are!
How thick can you get..?!
Queer AS WELL AS thick…what a calatittyment…!
And as higgerant ADRIAN T also said he thought you were all quebecquois; he is just as higgerant as wot I am; er…no..on second thoughts… at least he knew you were an historical identity; I just thought you were a spelling mistake..!
And as he says, “The things you learn on pinknews.co..!
My grandad was a yid (his word not mine) and HIS grandad was a right old yid (grandad’s words again) and Rabbinical scholar/ Rabbi to boot and brought the tribe to the U.K. from Russia somewhere…
Grandad married Irish Catholic Mooney and the rest is misery…well at least as far as me being brung up Catholic and being ‘different’ and all that.
Thanks again for the history lesson..but at 100$ a minute for future lessons, are you sure there ain’t the merest touch of the old yid in u 2…?
………..& the whole world has got YOUR drift now luvvie..!
If heaven and hell existed, and if heaven is clogged up with bigots, homophobes and people who claim to “love you” yet bitch about others’ behaviour behind their backs (much like they do outside most churches just after sunday service), then hell is my heaven instead.
Louise, you say jesus loves me? Well in that case, if god has a plan for me, then he made me exactly as he planned (he doesn’t make mistakes right?) So he made me gay. Of course this is why people like you have no choice but to believe that being gay is a choice. Because how could god possibly make anyone gay.
Well, as someone who is gay, I KNOW I was born this way. I can’t speak for anyone other than myself, but my life would have been so much easier were I straight. Initially I used to be in self-denial about it. I know myself, I know I was born gay, I know it was absolutely NOT a choice and the quicker people like you realise that and stop your own self-delusion on this matter the quicker we might see less suicides, less broken marriages (due to the self-denial) and less long-term psychological damges caused to people who are being told by people like you that they are wrong, evil etc.
If you are trying to live a good life as a good christian, then you must wake up and realise that this approach only causes hurt, pain and harm, and that the damage caused and victims suffer from it physically, mentally and emotionally.
P.S: As a scientist (geneticist) I can assure you that there is a ton of medical & zoological evidence that sex is not just for procreation, in many animal species around the world. Don’t take my word for it, research things yourself, hit up google, there’s no excuse for ignorance when we’ve got the internet.
Thank you for that, George.
I can’t wait for the day that it proven beyond all doubt to be in the genes or whatever you scientists call it.
A fact of nature.
Much like the earth, and all the rest, going around the sun with all that that entailed for the ignorant, religious big-mouths of Galileo’s day.
Maybe then, the likes of Louise will concentrate on what Jesus actually said, actually commanded, ‘Love one another…’
If you only knew how often I had to live on baloney sandwiches and warm sugared water to pay for my 10 years of evening courses in History and Literature (French, English, American, and a sprinkling of boring Canadian stuff), while I worked as a custodian (janitor) in a catholic church for minimal wages, you would understand why I think $100 a minute is a rock bottom bargain.
You hesitate to speak of your history, you scoundrel, but if I had you to myself for an hour or so, I am convinced that you would have me in fits of tears and laughter in no time – a bar in Thailand indeed !!!
But this thread is not about us, and we have been abusing it long enough… for now.
At the moment, I am busy copying down every precious word of George’s post. He is a geneticist, for gawd’s sake, and every word he write is easily worth $1000 a minute.
Read you loud and clear. I hope that Sir Alasdair Macdonald has received a memo from you.
And thanks for the insight into your own personal struggle to be yourself.
Yes I have rather hogged the page.
Thanks again for your contribution.
I am glad that you chose to share your story; more please.
It is always good to hear others; that way, others, hopefully, will realise that it is a ‘universal’ throughout Creation and not, as the fuckwit scouse priest told me 50 years ago, that I was “sick and one of only ‘very few men’ afflicted with this mental ‘disease’…electricity will help…Go with God* and our prayers. Here’s the address of Dr. Electrics in Liverpool”.
(*Ecclesia-speak; means ‘bugger-off’ actually.
QUOTE: The religious argument collapses when it is clear that homosexuality is nature, not nurture,
Unfortunately, most people don’t agree with you.
QUOTE: Religion is a lifestyle choice and one that due to the dangers of fundamentalism should be strictly restricted to consenting adults only!
It is as no child when they grow up are forced to follow a particular religon apart from a very small number of cults with very few members.
QUOTE: but they must not receive a penny of public money, and they must be clobbered under the discrimination laws if they harass or otherwise mistreat any staff, pupils or parents who challenge or criticise their teaching in open debate.
A lot of people think it is you that are doing the harrasing because you give the impression that free speech is only a right of people who agree with you.
QUOTE: And are faith schools also entitled to teach xenophobia and killing non-disciples if that is “in line with their religious beliefs”?
Could you provide some evidence that this is happening? If you can’t, may I suggest that you stick to the truth rather than malicious ranting.
QUOTE: I don’t love my enemies – I don’t follow such stupid, immoral teachings. Too right I’m intolerant – tolerance is not a virtue in and of itself. Standing up for justice is.
This is rather a strange perception as one of your constant demands is for tolerance for homosexuals. Why do you deamnd it but won’t give it?
QUOTE: People are born gay, just as they are born black, white, Asian… They can’t be ‘wrong’ anymore than being Asian can be ‘wrong’.
The evidence doesn’t support this contention. As Graham Willard, an editor of a homosexual newspaper in Australia said in a book he wrote “Being born gay is total crap. if you admit to that you can’t go out and try and seduce all the good looking straight guys.”
QUOTE: Other people’s affairs, and pursuit of happiness, are none of your f**king business.
If that is the case, why are you interfering in the right of parents to send their children to a faith based school?
QUOTE: Reality is very different. You display how very little knowledge you really have about heterosexuality let alone what homosexuals actually may or may not do in bed
How about having sex with 32 different men in a weekend. How do I know? I read his diary.
QUOTE:Moreover, you are free to teach whatever you want in catholic schools as long as you don’t expect the Australian population as a whole to subsidize your endoctrination camps with their taxes.
But I thought that this discussion was about not letting faith based schools being free to teach what they want? And for your information, parents who send their kids to faith based schools subsidise parents who send their kids to State schools as the government spends twice as much on state school kids as they do on private school kids. As they all pay taxes, it is not ufair that they should get a return on them in the area of education.
Why do people with a belief in the supernatural seem to feel entitled to extra respect because of these views when the opposite should apply? Do they also believe that a non virgin bride should be stoned to death as per the old testament?
Amazing how this site attracts religious nuts who will never be happy until everyone submits to their will. No wonder Pat Condell’s videos are some of the most popular on YouTube.
Children are not chattel Reality Check. When they are captives to the teachers at their school, they have a right to be protected from bad ideas and indoctrination – whether it’s nonsense about ‘hell’ or junk science like ‘intelligent design’. They have a right to be given the most informed opinion. We won’t stand back and watch religious bullies get away with inflicting misery on vulnerable young people.
The fact that most people don’t agree with us – actually that’s not the case – is not what counts. What matters is what’s true. Most people disagreed with Galileo, but as he said to the Inquisitors as he was forced to recant: ‘yet, it still moves…’. In the Middle East, virtually everyone is certain you will go to hell for failing to submit to Allah. Doesn’t make them right, does it?
Thanks ADRIAN T, for that..!
I hope there is another ‘GALILEO’ moment before I die and they find, and the Church admits, it’s all down to nature.
I hope there will then be a big shoe-throwing ‘event’ in St. Peter’s Sq. Rome or at the very least a ‘moon-in’..arses to the baldocchino.
I well remember as a child the prayer on the back of a holy card of PIUS XII…a prayer for the ‘perfidious Jew’.
My grandfather was a jew and I had a terrible time trying to hide that fact; of course I didn’t know what ‘perfidious’ was.
Today the mind set has completely changed and the pope is there in their synagogues with those so latterly condemned.
So what I am getting at is that nothing is set in stone; the Catholic Church is as it has ever been, politics in drag.
Let’s hope that it is not too long before the daft buggers lose their ignorance; have a GALILEO moment, about homosexuality and let us hope that it does not involve much more pain and suffering on the part of so many, not least the young.
So good to hear from you again, Louise, my little scorpion.
If you don’t mind being as bored as I was reading your multiple posts (what the hell was all that about? Can’t you simply make one post and say it all at once?), I am prepared to spend a few minutes of this fine Sunday afternoon to evaluate your comments, in one post.
(93)Why is fear of homosexuality a mental illness?
Why does an open wound become infected? Why don’t you spend a few bucks and order ‘Can Homophobia Be Cured’ by Bruce Hilton on Amazon.com and inform yourself yourself?
(94) The bible does mention David and Jonathan, the Roman centurion and his servant, and Ruth and her mother-in-law though.
Are you an atheist or aren’t you? ‘If he exists’! Why don’t you say ‘If she exists’ or ‘If it exists’?
Don’t you know that patriarchy is doomed to extinction in the 21st century, or don’t those uninformed writers of the old testament use the word paradigm? And do you really believe that god created Adam and Eve the way the fairy tale describes it in Genesis?
(95) 1 point for you.
(96) Parents should teach homophobia to their own children. It’s their choice. Why force their responsibility on teachers who may not even care about the matter one way or another and whose jobs hang in the balance, and why should all UK citizens have to subsidize faith schools?
(97) 1 point for you.
(98) Teaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ is one thing; teaching homophobia , about which Jesus said not a word, is another. Please don’t give me that muck about the teachings of RC Council’s teachings being inspired by god and having the same authority as the gospels. If that were true, why have catholics not followed the enlightened teachings of Vatican II?
(99) Go ask Sir Alaisdair Macdonald about that.
(101) Infant baptism is like forcing an unsuspecting child into adhering to a certain political party for the rest of his/her life, and it should be outlawed.
Anyway, for most catholic parents, who rarely go to church except on Christmas Eve and Easter Vigil, infant baptism is only an occasion for a photo shoot, something to add to the family album, and you know damned well that that is exactly what it is. Few parents attend baptism preparation courses, and those who leave the room when class is over are both yawning and bored.
Jesus was not baptized as a child. John the Baptist baptized him him in the River Jordan when Jeus was a young, thinking adult, remember? …and the voice was heard from heaven and the bluebird of paradise flew over my grocery cart and lowered the price tags on all my honey and locusts.
(102)People are free to think what they want.
(103) It is you that should not only stick to the truth, but also stick to the subject at hand.
(104) There is no excuse for such ignorance when so much evidence to the contrary of what you are saying is freely available on the Internet.
(106) Because teaching homophobia to innocent children who will eventually have to face the real world with this crippling mental illness is child abuse. What XXX gay porn site are you watching? Don’t you know that pornography is a billion dollar industry which does not represent the loving feelings of real people and which are ignrored by a good majority of adult LGBT persons? Although psychiatrists agree that healthy visual demonstrations of sexuals techniques can and do improve the quality of the realationship between loving couples.
(108) 1 point for you.
Parents who send their children to faith schools and who subsidize them with their taxes should not have to subsidize the public school system. With today’s computer technology, the accounting of the system would require a simple program and by clicking onto one or two commands, the whole thing should fall into place.
The big problem, as I see it, is that in the UK there is no separation between State and Religion, and I fail to understand how such a tremendous Nation as the UK is lagging behind on this matter.
Your point on the curriculum of catholic schools is subtle and desrves further consideration.
Fianally, as a cradle catholic, I join countless of my confreres, not to mention members of the clergy and the episcopacy, who are ashamed to call themselves catholics these days because the holy spirit must have busy eating chicken feed when Ratzinger was ‘elected’ pope.
He will continue to go from one blunder to another – just wait and see what happens when he visits the holy land shortly – until he gets blasted off the face of the earth.
Blessings, Reality Check indeed!!!
To follow your most intelligent example and taking 14 posts to put your points across, allow me one more tiny, little comment, OK?
3 out of 14 points is not bad, it ain’t good either. Some would call it mediocre, but you know how sheepish we Acadians can be when it comes to calling a spade a spade.
So it appears you are running low on venom, my little scorpion.
Why don’t you devour your wife and get the kind of nutrients you’ll need to produce more of that toxic pestilence with which you have surely being abusing her since the day she was fooled into signing the marriage contract, and with which you have failed miserably to torment us.
To quote one of our local rednecks: You’re lower than a snake’s belly!’
Reality Check indeed!!!
AT: I don’t love my enemies – I don’t follow such stupid, immoral teachings. Too right I’m intolerant – tolerance is not a virtue in and of itself. Standing up for justice is.
RC:This is rather a strange perception as one of your constant demands is for tolerance for homosexuals. Why do you demand it but won’t give it?
AT: Loving enemies is of course stupid. We didn’t do that on 9/11, thank goodness. I don’t demand you to be tolerant of anything. That’s your business. But I don’t want your intolerance – driven by nothing nbut superstition – to have any privileged position in the public sphere, and certainly not when it comes to educating kids. In anycase, tolerance is a reciprocal thing.
School should be aboiut teaching kids HOW to think, not what to think. It’s absolutely wrong to tell children who are too young to reason for themselves ‘you will belong to this religion’, which is essentially what faith schools do. Surely, after decades of sectarianism in Northern Ireland, (funny, even Gerry Adams – of all people!!! – hinted recently that segregating kids by faith was possibly a bad thing) we should have learnt not to put kids in separate boxes. faith schools are a recipe for disaster.
Earth to Adrian, can you hear me? Do we have contact?
Have I been missing something or what? Who the hell is AT and RC?
Are you on the right thread or am I on the wrong one?
Although I agree with every word you’ve said, I can’t imagine what has brought this on. Explain, s’il te plait.
Where are you, my little scorpion? Pouring over out Thomas Aquinas, are we? Useless medieval stuff. I’m sure his excellency bishop Pell has realized that by now.
Check out Timothy Radcliff instead, or Daniel Helminiak, John McNeill, John Alison, Richard McBrian or even better the Dalai Lama who knows more about ethics for the new millenium than anything the Vatican will come up with by the time of the next glacial age.
Reality che-e-e-e-e-ck? Hello-o-o-o-o-o-o! Have you given any serious consideration to your subtle proposition concerning the curriculum of catholic scho-o-o-o-o-ols???? Surely you don’t expect me to come up with the answer for yo-o-o-o-u! Dat would be cheating!
Ah c’mon, the fun is just beginning. You don’t want to miss the fireworks, do yo-o-o-o-o-u? We’ll be serving spicy hot dogs!!!
“QUOTE: However, I will say that faith schools should be illegal to anyone’s face. It bloody well IS child abuse.
You have forgotten one thing. The decision to send children to these schools is a choice. No one is made to send their kids to them. One of your mantra’s is diversity. How come you want to deny people diversity in the form of education they want?”
It’s not a choice for the children. Indoctrinating the young and impressionable is highly unethical. Why not give them a secular education and then allow them to choose whether or not to follow a religion when they’re older? And try not to be too disappointed when they choose a “wrong” religion, like Hiduism or Buddhism.
“QUOTE: A right to deny the rights of others is not a right
Isn’t this reverse discrimination? You say that you should not be discriminated against but it is OK for you to discriminate against parents who want their children taught in faith based schools.”
Since when am I denying their rights by criticising them? And how is choosing what school to send your kids to even remotely on the same level as something like race or sexuality?
Pumpkin Pie: (117)
‘Why not give them a secular education and then allow them to choose whether or not to follow a religion when they’re older?’
Are you psychic or something? How dare you read my mind like that?
By the way, your comment was a tablespoon-full of whipped cream on a generous piece of pumpkin pie.
Aw, thanks! Your comments would be the main course, then. :3
Just a little addendum to my response to (95):-
If a child being sent to a faith school is a type of person that that faith discriminates against (gay right now, coloured, female, autistic, etc. have all been covered in previous decades), then allowing this child’s parents to send them to such a school would be violating the child’s human rights. As well as being extremely cruel.
I don’t know why I never thought of that because that is exactly what happened to moi.
Everyone knew I was different the first day of Grade 1, and don’t think I didn’t feel lonely during recreation periods when no-one would come near me.
The same thing happened when I joined the Boy Scouts; no-one sat near me around our campfires. Nobody actually said anything nasty, they just ignored me.
That probably accounts for the fact that I had nothing else to do at school than to pay attention to the teacher and to pull off a string of A’s and A+’s all through school.
I learned very young to say ‘Ah, f*ck them!’
Gros merci for your feedback, by the way.
Ladies and gentlemen, I am not accustomed to back out of discussions for no good reason, so I have not been ignoring any of you, I have merely been overtaken by real life and will not have much time until about Thursday or so. I am happy to apologise for the inconvenience, if you were after further information etc.
So, in the first place, I did not accept J-P’s apology, because I was not particularly offended. If it helps J-P at all, I can say that I thought his apology was admirable, but the not caring was not regarding his apology, it was about the supposed offence. In general, people in Western Society are too willing to take offence and we’re fast becoming a bunch of crybabies. Especially on the ‘net.
Also, in general, I do not consider robust discussion to be predominantly about feelings. If people wish to take me to task for supposed bitterness, then go for it, but I may say that there is plenty of bitterness here from the rest of you, so I don’t think I’m alone on that score.
My remarks here have been two-fold. In the first place to assert that parents have the natural right to teach our children as we see fit and to find schools which operate under the same set of values or world-view. Once I had done as much on that score as I thought I could, I then proceeded to issue the call to follow Christ. He is no sinner, even if I am, so I’m not asking you to follow me, you’ll note. By all means, ignore the call, if you wish – that is entirely up to you and is part of your intrinsic dignity as a human being. Christ will not stop calling you, in various ways; right now, it’s through me.
There have been calls for me to further explain my position on the existence of God etc and for my views on gay sex or sexuality in general. I am more than happy to do this, but it cannot happen right now and may need to wait a couple more days. I will do this here if the comments section is still open, and if not I will try to address your sincere questions at my blog.
In all sincerity, I pray that God bless you all.
“In all sincerity, I pray that God bless you all.”
Comment by Louise
When will you people just get it.
I neither want nor need “YOUR” gods blessing.
Nor do I want a catholics , protestant’s, muslims, rastafarian’s jewish, etc etc ad nauseum, blessing.
It comes across as arrogant and patronising.
Do you know we could have been bruvvers…well, ok, sisters…”Sisters…sisters….there were never SUCH devoted sisters…!
Lord help the sister who…etceteraaaaaaaaaaaa.!
I was exactly the same and knew ‘me’ from a very early age as I have (yawn..I know!) said B4.
Same experience in school/the scouts/ brilliant, over – achieving little ‘shoite’ at junior school for the Irish nuns…
Dunno about you but I realised early on, as a small kid, that being the class clown and a good mimic of Sister Mary McInerney and her sarrft Oirish drahlll deflected any animosity to me on account of my very marked differences to the other, dirty, football playing, mass-skipping yobs and scum…(!)
And wasn’t I “so much better dan dem”, sister..?!
I went to Mass every day, I did…!
I knew the Latin better than Fr. O’Clodge-Piece..I did..!
I knew what colours went on what day…I did…!
WHAT A NAUSEATING LITTLE GIT…!
The hormones kicked in; the voice broke…!
You have to laff………………at it ALL…!
……………my word this post is getting longer by the day…120-odd comments..
lousie will not discuss her position on sexuality be the following extraqct from a post on her blog mocking the Pete Seeger song ‘Little Boxes’ says it all:
And some have two Mummies
And some have two Daddies
And they’re all very broadminded
But they hate folks who don’t agree
oh and how about the overt racism inherent in the folling extract from the same blog:
And there’s green ones and there’s blue ones
And there’s “Mocha” ones and “Latte” ones
And they’re all made out of ticky tacky
And they all look just the same
I think she has alot of explaining to do…
I think you’re right on, as usual.
We could be sisters. Imagine the two of us on stage wearing the most fabulous powder blue gowns with accompagnying giant ostrich feather fans singing: ‘Lord help the sister that comes between me and my man!’
I think somebody stole our act and turned it into a movie with Bing and Danny and called it Blight Chrashmas.
Hey, I gotta an idea! Why don’t we send our powder blue ostrich feather fans to Louise so she can cool herself off the next time she goes to Medjegore and has a string of apparitions of the blasted merry.
Then she could come back and tell us exactly the day and the hour the world will come to an end, and the moon will turn bloody red, and the stars will fall out of heaven… hey, didn’t Vera Miles sing a song about a star falling out of heaven and right into her arms, and it turned out to be yo-o-o-ou?
What? You don’t wanna to give up your feather fan??? Well, what about a 26-ouncer of Tequila then, and a macaw to wear on her shoulder?
I can let her burrow my tepee in case all the hotels in Boshniaw are full and there would be no place for her to stay. No, I will not give her any special medicin…she can easily find all the hash she’ll need in Afganistan which is just a stone’s throw away. Hope she don’t step on any of dem der land mines.
On second thought, that might blurt her vision and she won’t be able to read the ephemerides to know when the planets will be aligned in such a way as to blast every LGBT person into kingdom come… well what about democracy come, let’s not get ridiculous.
Who wants to go live in the feudal age for a-a-a-a-a-l-l-l-l eternity?
And speaking of your school experiences, what ever gave you the idea that a foot had a ball? Football, what the hell is that? Have you been dipping into the sauce of my coq-au-vin?
LAFF, LAFF, LAFF, my friend. There is no bitter medecin, I mean better.
Wel Keith, you’ll have to excuse me, I just heard a strange sound and Louise sent me a telepathic message saying that it was jesus banging at my door, you know, calling me… yoo-hooo, anybody home. The hound of heaven is coming after me, gotta open up a can of dog food. It’s the kind thing to do, dontcha no, instead of using the poor thing as a guinea pig for eye make-up. Oops, there I go putting down the ladies again. I’ll just have to find something to roll up and go f*ck myself, it’ll just take a minute.
Cheerio! Pip,pip, and all that.
JEAN _ PAUL.
What are you ON..?
I have difficulty seeing you as a Trappist, as you say in another place,…hahaha.!
and DAVE NORTH…
You forgot ‘smug’ at the end.
I am often told that I will be ‘prayed for…’
I always cringe at that; it is so ‘twee’..!
QUOTE: Children are not chattel Reality Check.
I know because I have two and five grandchildren, but I can’t say the same for homos and lesbians. An article in the newspaper said they see children as trophies to be paraded as “look at me, I have got children to go wiht my handbags.”
QUOTE: When they are captives to the teachers at their school, they have a right to be protected from bad ideas and indoctrination – whether it’s nonsense about ‘hell’ or junk science like ‘intelligent design’. They have a right to be given the most informed opinion. We won’t stand back and watch religious bullies get away with inflicting misery on vulnerable young people.
Having taught in both the private and state system there is not much different. There are religious bullies in the state system that insist the only true religion is the junk science called evolution, so you should not be surprised that private schools choose the religion they will use as a basis for their teaching.
As you don’t have to send your kids to faith based schools, I don’t know what you problem is and I don’t know why your getting your knickers in a knot as there are not many kids in faith based schools demanding to be sent to state schools.
QUOTE: The fact that most people don’t agree with us – actually that’s not the case – is not what counts.
It is the case, evidenced by the fact that private schools are growing daily so people have made it quite clear that they prefer the education they give as opposed to the education given by State schools.
QUOTE: If you don’t mind being as bored as I was reading your multiple posts.
None made you read my posts.
QUOTE: The bible does mention David and Jonathan, the Roman centurion and his servant, and Ruth and her mother-in-law though.
And it talks about Jesus and his twelve disciples and the fact that salvation is through Jesus Christ and that Jesus gives us an abundant life.
QUOTE: and why should all UK citizens have to subsidize faith schools?
And why should parents who send their kids to private schools which their right, have to subsidise parents who send their kids to state schools?
QUOTE: Don’t you know that pornography is a billion dollar industry which does not represent the loving feelings of real people and which are ignrored by a good majority of adult LGBT persons?
And according to the editor of a homo magazine in the USA, porn is a major component of their sexuality.
QUOTE: So it appears you are running low on venom, my little scorpion.
I can reccommend a very good anger management course.
QUOTE: I don’t demand you to be tolerant of anything
In denial are we? IN the newspapers, what usually happens if anyone says anything about homosexuality that homos don’t agree with the response is always you are homophobic and intolerant. In other words, you should be tolerant of me. Apart from the fact that if someone says anything you don’t agree with, I don’t know how that makes them afraid of homos, which is what homophobia means. I would say that saying something that homos don’t like means that they are not afraid of homos as they are prepared to cop their wrath and anger.
QUOTE: School should be aboiut teaching kids HOW to think, not what to think.
That is a good idea and it should start in the state schools which have plenty of fundamentalists pushing the atheist and evolution religions.
QUOTE: It’s absolutely wrong to tell children who are too young to reason for themselves ‘you will belong to this religion’, which is essentially what faith schools do.
Adn what state schools do as they only teach one religion that of evolution. They don’t teach both so the kids can decide for themselves.
QUOTE: Check out Timothy Radcliff instead,
Is that Daniel Radcliff’s brother?
QUOTE: It’s not a choice for the children. Indoctrinating the young and impressionable is highly unethical.
Then you need to get rid of state schools as they indoctrinate children in an atheist midset.
QUOTE: Since when am I denying their rights by criticising them?
If you care to read some of the comments posted they are calling for all faith based schools to be closed.
QUOTE: Please don’t give me that muck about the teachings of RC Council’s teachings being inspired by god and having the same authority as the gospels.
QUOTE: The same thing happened when I joined the Boy Scouts; no-one sat near me around our campfires. Nobody actually said anything nasty, they just ignored me.
There are products out there that deal with B.O.
QUOTE: and the voice was heard from heaven and the bluebird of paradise flew over my grocery cart and lowered the price tags on all my honey and locusts.
What a childish and immature remark and here’s me thinking you might have a bit of intelligence. Didn’t you know that sarcasm is the lowest form of wit?
What am I ON? I’m on the Internet, that’s all, and your humour is contagious. What’s the matter? Don’t like powder blue? You guys are all alike!
Please don’t tempt me to talk about the years I spent in a Trappist monastery. I am saving that for when I am fully retired and have all the time in the world to write a manuscript for a novel or a movie, and with any luck it will be as successful as anything Monty Python ever did! It might even be useful as a teaching aid in faith schools.
And that’s a bit more than $100 a minute. The whole thing is about money, you know, just ask Tammy Fay.
It might bring in a good enough sum of money to make a substantial contribution to the American Psychiatric Association or the World Health Organization.
Who knows, maybe I’ll start a scorpion farm and raise the little dahlinks for any beneficial effects their venom could have on getting a grip on the ecological crisis with which gawd is actually punishing us on account of the interest the banks are charging on loans. You know what the bable says about that abomination, don’t you?
Look, it’s powder blue or the deal is off. Any other color would not match my acadian blue eyes. And keep away from my coq-au-vin from now on. Men!!!
Reality Check said: “Having taught in both the private and state system there is not much different. There are religious bullies in the state system that insist the only true religion is the junk science called evolution…”
Well, that says it all doesn’t it. So, how old is the Earth, Reality Check? Come one, entertain us. Evolution happened, because that’s what the evidence says, overwhelmingly. It is a disgrace that you came anywhere near children, and I sincerely hope you weren’t teaching science.
Religious Nutcase said: “In denial are we? IN the newspapers, what usually happens if anyone says anything about homosexuality that homos don’t agree with the response is always you are homophobic and intolerant. In other words, you should be tolerant of me.zzz”
- I don’t write anything in newspapers, so as usual another non-sequitur. In any case, I’m not stopping you spouting half-baked superstitious nonsense.No-one has removed your posts on here – I don’t knwo what you are complaining about. And if you want to scream and shout and holler in the street with a placard about your bible, selling puncils from a cup, and being laughed at – be my guest. But face the consequences if you do. The problem with you, you can neither tolerate LGBT people, nor tolerate any criticism for your backward worldview. Grow up and get used to it.
“RC:If you care to read some of the comments posted they are calling for all faith based schools to be closed.”
AT: To repeat, yes, I would have every faith school shut down. Children should have the right to unbiased education, and not be indoctrinated with superstition. It’s child abuse.
RC said: “It is the case, evidenced by the fact that private schools are growing daily so people have made it quite clear that they prefer the education they give as opposed to the education given by State schools.”
No, it isn’t the case actually – as evidenced by the statistics, which say people are not rushing to ruin their kids’ minds with religion, but to get their kids a good education, even if it means lying about what they do on sunday mornings. In many LEA’s there is no choice in any case.
“I know because I have two and five grandchildren, but I can’t say the same for homos and lesbians. An article in the newspaper said they see children as trophies to be paraded as “look at me, I have got children to go wiht my handbags.”" RC
That’d be funny if it wasn’t so viciously hateful. So you’re old enough to have grandchildren – proof that age doesn’t necessarily bring intelligence. The children of LGBT parents aren’t accessiories any more than yours, you fool. Being straight doesn’t make you a good parent. An article in the newspaper? Oh, that proves it then. And, no, sarcasm isn’t ‘the lowest form of wit’ – people who say that say it out of paranoia because they live their lives paranoidly thinking people are laughing at them, and sarcasm is less easy to be sure about than outright abuse.
And, although I consider myself a very tolerant person, I AM intolerant about some things – pointless, ignorant hatred being one of them.
Out of interest – how do you know that you chose the ‘right’ religion? You must be pretty convinced, I assume? And the equal certainty of members of other religions doesn’t worry you even a tiny bit? What made you choose your religion? (and that’s a genuinely interested question, not sarcasm)
So when Reality Check’s liddle Grand Child comes out of the closet, just think of all of the mind f!@ks he / she will be a recipient of. Poor little bar steward.
“Granny, if the worlds only 6000 years old, why are the dinosaurs older.?”
“Granny, if the bible talks about love, why do you hate so much?”
“Granny, why is it I will burn in hell cause I’m gay?”
Reality Check seems to think he can make an impact by a seemingly endless stream of quotes 93 – 101 in response to our question.
This endless stream of consciousness is a beautiful example of his manic flight into one-liner, pseudo or fantasy cogitations. . . .
Is the real issue here not that there are right or wrong answers, but the real problem is that they are no answers.
The bible may offer certainties . . . but does not real wisdom come from the struggle with the obtuse, the oblique and the obscure which fundamentalists have decided they cannot tolerate at any cost . . . and so hence Reality Checks manic flight from this fundamental reality.
Can the bible really ameliorate these anxieties? . . . Reality Checks behaviour and incapacity to engaging with a debate . . . I think suggests not.
Well, at least you have a sense of humour…unlike the next piece of this note which is directed at Mr. O’So-Smug with the grandkids…wossisface…’ang on while I find the name…yep,
(…..and it the comment from DAVE NORTH which prompts me to write.)
[Thanks, DAVE NORTH.
So YOU have grandchildren; well, wonderful and all credit to you.
I am glad for you but you say that you “don’t know about homos and lesbians”.
Well when I decided at the age of 35, and at that time still a virgin, by the way, to tell my mum that I was homosexual and that that was the reason I had had to leave my priesthood training, she said, “Well, so what? Do you think you are telling me something I have not always known…something new…?”
I could not believe it..!
Loving mums, which most are, will accept it.
And loving granpops, too, I hope.
Otherwise what is in store for the little mite when the hormones kick in and he has THAT to deal with AND the fact that his nearest and dearest turn against him, shoving Bibles and Papal Bulls down his throat..?
Are you some ‘fairweather granpop’…?
I can understand that you may not like the idea of a gay couple adopting a child to go with their handbags, like a fashion accessory, but let me ask you, why should they be any the less loving and caring than a heterosexual couple?
Have heterosexual couples got the monopoly on loving and caring…?
Is it a foregone conclusion that a gay couple have only adopted so that they can have a child to sexually abuse ‘on tap’?
Is it a foregone conclusion that if it is a heterosexual couple adopting, then sexual abuse of that child would be quite out of the question; I don’t think so..!
Just read your papers..!
Let me put it another way.
The above example is maybe talking about a youngish gay couple who would like to extend their family and adopt. This gay couple above, let me say for argument, has never married and there is no ex-wife or girlfriend…it’s 2 fellows.
But what about an entirely different set up.
As I said, I was all ‘unknowing’ until almost 36.
I only like ‘straight’ (ahem!) men.
My first and only boyfriend, my ‘educator’ was a married man, with 3 pre-teen kids.
He had maintained the ‘straight’ act for the sake of his wife and the 3 kids, all their married life, say, some 12 years or so.
He came home early one day from work, ill with the flu, to find his wife in the marital bed with some other guy.
He wasn’t angry, mad or ‘owt.
He just said…”Hmm..? so that’s the way it is, eh..? Well, I will go and get what I have always wanted while you are packing, ‘cos you’re goin’..!!”
He then told his wife of HIS ‘proclivities’ and when she had sufficiently recovered her strength to enable herself to pick up her jaw from the floor, he told her that they were now, ‘ipso facto’ divorced and the paperwork could follow its own due course.
We (him and me) were together a year and then he left me for what he really wanted which was a very, very young man and… bla bla bla.
They have been together for the best part of 30 years.
I am glad to have been a stepping-stone to enable that first (and only) boyfriend to find his feet; it hurt a bit at the time..but so what..!
The second friend…only ever a friend and older than I… was already a grandfather when he decided that he too wanted the love of a very young boy. He told his wife; they parted amicably and still love one another now, in 2009, as much as they did when they married in the early 50′s….
He too, is still with the young boy (now not so young!) after 30+ years, the kid that he upheaved his (and his wife’s..!) straight and settled 2 lives for.
SO WHAT I AM GETTING AT IS THIS…”NEVER” IS A LONG WHILE, REALITY-CHECK, SIR…
How do you know what is in front of your grandkids when the hormones kick in?
I am assuming they are still children and maybe have a bit to go before the onset of ‘life’.
And if they are adults already, your grandkids, how do you know what is going round in their likkle heads, even tho’ they may be wed…?
How will you handle it?
As I said, “NEVER” is a long while.
Furthermore, it is legal in today’s world.
What will you do if they suddenly announce that they are ‘that way’…how will you cope…how will you get your head round that…?
I hope you never have to but…if you have to…?
“but does not real wisdom come from the struggle with the obtuse, the oblique and the obscure which fundamentalists have decided they cannot tolerate at any cost”
Comment by John K — May 5, 2009 @ 12:13
Don’t be silly, that would require them to think for themselves.
Organised religion will not tolerate that.
PS. Thanks for the vote of confidence Keith….
Throw the snake into bed with these people, let tables turn, and I bet they still spout the same old drivel but deep down they re-evaluate, if there capable.
POW! POW! POW! POW! And the winner is….. ADRIAN T !!!!!
Just so you’ll know, I intend to re-read and re-read your comments while listening to Handel’s (1685-1759) ‘Fireworksmusic Suite’ played by the Slovakian Philharmonic Orchestra conducted by Oliver Dohnanity. (Adding the name of the conductor is a snotty habit I picked up by listening to CBC-FM Radio before going to bed. It’s to be read with a tone of voice that sounds like someone overdosing on Valium!).
For you I will be playing the Handel’s ‘Watermusic Suite’ … played by the Slovakian Philharmonic Orchestra conducted by Oliver Dohnanity.
Why? You always have to ask why, don’t you?!
Well, it’s to commemorate the water that flows abundantly from my eyes when I roll on the floor in fits of laughter whenever I read your exquisite comments.
My partner has no idea what I’m laughing about and I believe he’s thinking of accompagnying me to my doctor’s office the next time I go for my regular check-up of my thyroid gland…or is that my prostate gland? I think he wants me to go for a pshychiatric evaluation.
Well, I hope you’re happy now, you wagwit!
well well JP, thankyou; you know the opposition is getting desperate when they accuse you of being ‘fundamentalists’… Of course, a fundamentalist is someone who cannot change his mind, even when confronted with the evidence. I am willing to change my mind if the evidence is strong enough.
Arsene Wenger made the grandiose claim earlier today, that Arsenal would deliver a ‘magnificent performance’. They didn’t of course, but his claim was at least easily testable. Reality Check and Louise above make also incredible promises about a magnificent afterlife – but they have no way of proving, no testimonies from happy customers. They ask you to take their word for it, change your lives around, and – ludicrously in RealityChecfks case – ask you to respect their beliefs, based on no evidence at all.
I have to refer to the late, great Carl Sagan once again – I cannot repeat this enough – extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
If Jesus Christ returned to earth, for example, in the middle of tonight’s Arsenal v Man Utd game, in front of 60,000 people – I’d be willing to change my mind.
But in 2000 years nature has never known to have gone out of its course. In the same time, I imagine, hundreds of millions of bare faced lies are being told every single day. (730,000 days have passed since then) What is statistically more likely, A) a miracle, or B) someone exaggerating, pulling your leg, playing a prank, defrauding someone, mistaken, gullible or misunderstood? category B, by perhaps, trillions to one!
Oh, you sweetheart; I’d like to pinch your…cheek.
QUOTE: AT: To repeat, yes, I would have every faith school shut down. Children should have the right to unbiased education, and not be indoctrinated with superstition. It’s child abuse.
Which proves my point and which you conveniently try and deny. This comment means that every child in state education is being abused because they are indoctrinated with the myth of evolution.
QUOTE: as evidenced by the statistics, which say people are not rushing to ruin their kids’ minds wias evidenced by the statistics, which say people are not rushing to ruin their kids’ minds with religion, but to get their kids a good education, even if it means lying th religion, but to get their kids a good education,
Thankyou for admitting that State education is bad.
QUOTE: What will you do if they suddenly announce that they are ‘that way’…how will you cope…how will you get your head round that…?
See my post 157
AT: In any case, I’m not stopping you spouting half-baked superstitious nonsense.No-one has removed your posts on here – I don’t [know] what you are complaining about
MAN WALKED WITH DINOSAURS SAID: Obviously your anger prevents you from seeing the obvious. I never said I was being stopped. I never said my posts were being removed. I am not complaining aobut anything. I stated a fact that you choose to ignore so please read the post again to determine what I said and to stop yoourself becoming a complete fool.
AT: Good. We both agree, your right to make yourself heard is being respected. You have the same right to make your case as anyone else. That sounds perfectly tolerant to me. What more do you want?
MAN NOT INTELLIGENT TO ENOUGH TO WALK WITH DINOSAURS SAID: Good. We both agree, your right to make yourself heard is being respected. You have the same right to make your case as anyone else. That sounds perfectly tolerant to me. What more do you want?
We don’t agree. In an attempt to sound logical and intelligent, you are still ignoring the fact that I said in NEWSPAPERS a letter written that does not agree with the homosexuals religion is quickly pounced upon and the writer is deemed homophobic. I put it a bit different this time as you obviously have a problem grasping plain english.
QUOTE: The problem with you, you can neither tolerate LGBT people, nor tolerate any criticism for your backward worldview. Grow up and get used to it.
RC “Another one of those oafish comments that are devoid of intellect and reason. Because of your blinkered view of life and your rejection, you are unable to understand that the intolerance is mainly a one way street. From you to anyone who disagrees with you and I can guarantee that you are going to make some inane comment that will prove what I have just said.”
AT: More white noise from the person who thinks that man walked with dinosaurs. Tolerance is a 2-way street.
You show hatred for people you do not know, you want to impose your world view on everyone else, you make arrogant claims you cannot prove (Once again, how old do you think the Earth to be?) and of course, like every true believer, you are always 100% right.
Your supposed saviour reportedly warned his follwers in Matt 5:11, 10:22, to expect ridicule and hatred. This certainly applies to biblical literalists like yourself. When you make claims which are ridiculous (‘the myth of evolution’), or hurtful (‘LGBT parents just have kids as trophies’ – unfounded, as it is nasty, for example) you must also expect people to say what they think of you. And it’s high time they did.
We do not tolerate or respect opinions – we question, probe, test them. Your opinions do not stand to reason, which is why we shoot them down. If you are used to giving sermons and monologues on ‘prayer walls’, this must be a bitter pill to swallow.
MAN NOT INTELLIGENT TO ENOUGH TO WALK WITH DINOSAURS – TRUE, BECAUSE NO ONE HAS DEVELOPED A TIME MACHINE ABLE TO GO BACK 65 MILLION YEARS YET – SAID: Good. We both agree, your right to make yourself heard is being respected. You have the same right to make your case as anyone else. That sounds perfectly tolerant to me. What more do you want?
KEN HAM’S CHIHUAHUA SAID: We don’t agree. In an attempt to sound logical and intelligent, you are still ignoring the fact that I said in NEWSPAPERS a letter written that does not agree with the homosexuals religion is quickly pounced upon and the writer is deemed homophobic.
AT: No, but you than made the non-sequitur: ‘so YOU should be tolerant’ (somewhere up there among your unreadable screed). It depends what you mean by ‘disagrees with homosexuals’. First, it’s not for you or anyone else to have an opinion. Other people’s private affairs are none of your f**king business.
Interfering in the private affairs of others who mean you no harm and spreading lies like gay people are more likely to be paedophiles, are a bigger threat to the USA than terrorists, only live to 42, should be ejected from the military for no reason whatsoever – yes, this is bigotry. So when people make claims like that, yes, face the consequences, instead of playing the ‘poor, persecuted self-pitying card’.
RC: “I chose a personal relationship with Jesus Christ the son of God and his Father. That is not religion that is relationship.”
This is what I mean by a grandiose claim. You not only know the existence of a god at work in the Universe. You claim to be on intimate terms with its mind, its opinions about who we should sleep with and, I suspect, in which position. Until you can give a coherent reason, how you know this to be true, I cannot take you seriously.
- I’d be willing to change my mind.
RC: No you wouldn’t. Your mind is made up that there is no God because if you admit to that you are admitting you were wrong and that is something you can’t do.
An atheist I know told a christian that if he could produce three pieces of evidence that God existed he would convert to christianity. He produced them and the atheist could not refute the evidence and was asked to convert to christianity and he refused. Go figure!!!
AT: and the evidence was……???
Look, if Jesus Christ comes down from the sky and the rapture’s captured on camera, fine you win. Can’t say fairer than that. I just won’t take Tim LaHaye’s word for it alone (I take my hat off to him though – how many golf courses would the proceeds from Left Behind buy?).
REALITY CHECK – TELL ME, HONESTLY, HOW OLD DO YOU THINK THE EARTH IS? CORRECT ME IF I AM WRONG – YOU THINK THE EARTH IS NO MORE THAN 6,000 YEARS OLD, AND THAT ADAM AND EVE WERE REAL PEOPLE, YES? :-)
The theory of Evolution by Natural Selection is the most robust theory in Science. Proven because of the DNA record (and mainly the information in junk DNA), the fossil record, the geological record, anthropology as well as geographical data. The facts all fit together, corroborate each other. And the millions of fossils we have, showing the transition of species over geological time, can all be dated. Nothing as yet, is out of place. The theory explains the facts. People who reject this are either mad, lying or ignorant; know-alls, know-nothings, or no-contests.
Evidence for Evolution – Vestigial Organs:
(ex) Body parts thought to be useless remnants of past evolutionary development. (crit) Back in 1895, Robert Wiedersheim listed 180 alleged vestigial organs. This list included: tonsils, coccyx (tail bone), thymus, little toe, male nipples, ear nodes, pineal gland, adenoids, appendix, wisdom teeth, parathyroid, ear muscles, body hair, and the nictitating membrane of the eye. Since the compilation of Wiedersheim’s list at the end of the 19th century, we have discovered important biological functions for every one of these so-called vestigial organs. Roy Hartenstein comments on the human appendix: “Long regarded as a vestigial organ with no function in the human body, the appendix is now thought to be one of the sites where immune responses are initiated.” (Grolier Encyclopedia, 1998.) Circumstances may arise at which point it would be better to risk the consequences of removing the appendix rather than risk keeping it. Nevertheless, it is not a useless vestige from our evolutionary past. Dr. Walt Brown writes concerning vestigial organs in general, “The existence of human organs whose function is unknown does not imply they are vestiges of organs inherited from our evolutionary ancestors. As medical knowledge has increased, at least some functions of all organs have been discovered.” (Walt Brown, “In the Beginning,” 2001, p. 9.)
Besides these human vestigial organs, examples of nonhuman vestigial organs given in the textbooks are very misleading. Consider the “whale pelvis” for example. Kids are not told that the whale pelvis is necessary for muscle attachments, without which the whale could not reproduce.
Evidence for Evolution – Where is it?
So where is the so-called evidence for evolution? Not in the biology textbooks used in the public schools! Aren’t there any legitimate evidences for the theory? Why do we have to imagine macro-evolution happening “long ago and far away…”? Could undirected natural processes alone assemble the intricate structures found within living cells? Can chemistry alone account for the origin of life on earth? What is the origin of the genetic information encoded in living organisms? Until evolutionists come up with real answers to these fundamental questions, Darwinian evolution should be kept in philosophy textbooks where it belongs and taken out of biology textbooks where, tragically, it has become entrenched.
Evolution and the Fossil Record
And one last thought on evolution and the fossil record:
In the years after Darwin, his advocates hoped to find predictable progressions… these have not been found — yet the optimism has died hard, and some pure fantasy has crept into textbooks.1
So, what would Darwin say today?
Now, after over 120 years of the most extensive and painstaking geological exploration of every continent and ocean bottom, the picture is infinitely more vivid and complete than it was in 1859. Formations have been discovered containing hundreds of billions of fossils and our museums are filled with over 100 million fossils of 250,000 different species.
The availability of this profusion of hard scientific data should permit objective investigators to determine if Darwin was on the right track. What is the picture which the fossils have given us?… The gaps between major groups of organisms have been growing even wider and more undeniable. They can no longer be ignored or rationalized away with appeals to imperfection of the fossil record. 2
Thanks for indulging that little side bar. Now, back to our 21st century understanding of micro-biology, genetics and design theory…
1 David M. Raup, “Evolution and the Fossil Record,” Science, vol. 213, July 1981, 289. The reality of the “human fossil record” of the past century:
Ramapithecus was widely recognized as a direct ancestor of humans. It is now established that he was merely an extinct type of orangutan.
Piltdown man was hyped as the missing link in publications for over 40 years. He was a fraud based on a human skull cap and an orangutan’s jaw.
Nebraska man was a fraud based on a single tooth of a rare type of pig.
Java man was based on sketchy evidence of a femur, skull cap and three teeth found within a wide area over a one year period. It turns out the bones were found in an area of human remains, and now the femur is considered human and the skull cap from a large ape.
Neandertal man was traditionally depicted as a stooped ape-man. It is now accepted that the alleged posture was due to disease and that Neandertal is just a variation of the human kind.
Australopithecus afarensis, or “Lucy,” has been considered a missing link for years. However, studies of the inner ear, skulls and bones have shown that she was merely a pygmy chimpanzee that walked a bit more upright than some other apes. She was not on her way to becoming human.
Homo erectus has been found throughout the world. He is smaller than the average human of today, with a proportionately smaller head and brain cavity. However, the brain size is within the range of people today and studies of the middle ear have shown that he was just like current Homo sapiens. Remains are found throughout the world in the same proximity to remains of ordinary humans, suggesting coexistence. Australopithecus africanus and Peking man were presented as ape-men missing links for years, but are now both considered Homo erectus.
Homo habilis is now generally considered to be comprised of pieces of various other types of creatures, such as Australopithecus and Homo erectus, and is not generally viewed as a valid classification.
2 Luther D. Sutherland, Darwin’s Enigma: Fossils and Other Problems, 4th edition, Master Books, 1988, 9.
Dave North said: “I neither want nor need “YOUR” gods blessing.”
You do need Him and He has instructed all His followers to make disciples. So, there you have it.
You are blind, wouldn’t you like to see?
“lousie will not discuss her position on sexuality”
I thought I had. I thought I said gay sex is wrong. I thought that was pretty clear.
“be the following extraqct from a post on her blog mocking the Pete Seeger song ‘Little Boxes’ says it all:
I think she has alot of explaining to do…”
There is no racism. The colours refer to the houses – you know – the little boxes. Can you not read? “Mocha” and “Latte” are trendy colours apparently.
“To repeat, yes, I would have every faith school shut down. Children should have the right to unbiased education, and not be indoctrinated with superstition. It’s child abuse.”
Teaching children secularist dogma, then, is also child abuse by your definition. Teaching them anything at all would be child abuse if you bother to think about your absurd position on “unbiased” education. There is no such thing.
“Maybe then, the likes of Louise will concentrate on what Jesus actually said, actually commanded, ‘Love one another…’
I do so love it when people who don’t give a stuff about religion try to be all profound with Our Lord’s words. Hilarious!
The Lord, also said, “If you love me, keep my commandments.” I am trying to recall the place where He said “Do not correct people who are in error, this is not a loving thing to do.”
Somebody asked why I did not address the issue of lesbians specifically. I’m not sure why I should, particularly.
I wish now to address Adrian’s questions regarding the existence of God etc.
“Well the atheist position is really, that there is no reason to believe in god.”
That sounds to me more like agnosticism. I think the atheist position is that there is no God. Specifically that there is no Holy Trinity and no Jesus Christ seated at the right hand of the Father. You are not given to fits of rage against Poseidon, Zeus et al, I’d imagine.
“The Universe seems to work very well without such an assumption.”
This is one of the only two arguments against the existence of God and it is useless, because it assumes the non-existence of God in its framework. We might just as well reply that the universe works very well because He holds it in being.
And of course, if it works so well, then no-one can complain about the problem of evil, so the atheist must take one or other of these arguments for his rebellion against the Almighty.
There is no cause of the Prime mover. That is why it is called the Prime mover.
Evolution explains nothing whatever. What caused the Big Bang? Why should I believe that some amazing event caused the Big Bang and yet not believe in God? What the atheists ask me to believe is absurd. It is far more believable that some kind of Supreme Being caused the whole lot.
St Thomas Aquinas and others have proven the existence of God many times before I was even born. You will not believe them, for other reasons. Only you and God know what those reasons are.
Follow Christ. He has a job for you to do.
“If a highly complex being existed forever, well, it’s much easier to say a simple piece of DNA existed forever.”
This should have been in quotes in my post above.
Wow! If Handel gave you all that steam, get a load of Beethoven’s ‘Emperor Concerto’. Any symphonic orchestra will do, and any conductor too.
If you’ll excuse my unbearable pedantry once again, the Italians have an old proverb that says:
‘Se non è vero, è bene trovato’
En Anglais, on dirait:
‘If a thing is false, it’s easy to find.’
A fundamentalist interpretation of ancient scriptures is easy to find… you know what that means, don’t you? Need I say more, mon empereur.
Onward homo soldiers! But, your absence on other threads is starting to be noticed…
There’s also a French proverb that goes:
‘Toute vérité n’est pas bonne à dire.’
In English: ‘It is not always wise to give away the whole truth.’
Has it occured to you that you may be giving these energumens a free education?
They remind me of someone who gets onto an elevator and pushes buttons randomly just to see what will happen. It could happen, in fact I think it happened some time ago, that they pushed the ‘Stop’ button and they are talking to you on the emergency phone.
Call the fire department and come back to us, we needs ya. Let them pay for an education like anybody else, bunch of moochers.
Remember, it’s not one of Beethoven’s symphonies; this is a concerto, and the piano solo in the second part is divine, simply divine. Well, it was written for the Emperor of the Holy Roman Empire, or did Ludwig change his mind at the last minute and dedicate it to Napoléon?
Ben oui! How on earth could I miss such a succulent little detail, like an escargot entrenched in his shell?
Cheerio! Pip, pip and all that!
Louise points sound more interesting to respond to. At least she has made the effort to write something original, even though of course the concept of the Prime Mover, cannot be proved.
You could put an argument for deism at the most – but to them say, there is a god that listens to your prayers, cares what you think, do and say, cares with whom you sleep – well you still have all your work ahead of you. And very best of luck.
To think that in our unimportant solar system, there is just one planet which is hospitable to life, and much of that planet is either too cold or too dry for life. Then consider that life has only been possible for a tiny fraction of the existence of the planet, and of all the life that ever existed, 99% of it is now extinct…. Some predict the Earth’s oceans will boil away in a billion years; in two billion years, Andromeda will collide and obliterate our solar system – tomorrow in astronomical time. Some designer!!!
Unless you think like RealityCheck – you would accept that humanity has been on this planet for 200,000 years. And for much of this time, our primimtive ancestors must have endured hell: life expectancy 20-25 years max; fighting viciously for food, warmth, shelter, women; killed off by diseases and fearful of predators, terrified by earthquakes, volcanoes…
And all this time, Heaven watches impassively, disinterested. Then, after 196,000 years, decides to intervene, sending an envoy, not to the chinese, greeks, or babylonians who could already do science, and philosophy, but to some illiterate peasants in palestine…. really, a Virgin Birth is more likely :-)
As for Reality Check, cutting and pasting an article from the internet – it doesn’t warrant a response: I see no evidence of it having gone through a rigorous peer-review process, which is mandatory for any paper published in a scientific magazine.
There are plenty of articles pulling Behe, Dembski et al to pieces which I could also cut and paste.
Anyone interested in reading why creationism and intelligent design are nonsense should read Creationism’s Trojan Horse, by Barbara Forrest. And I wish people would stop lying about the fossil record, which is massive.
Oh, and don’t forget to bring the darling little scorpions with you. We would love to get their spin on some real life issues, like who are they going to vote for on June 4th?
Isn’t it time we started kicking that around? Even Mihangel ap Yrs and Ivan, Sister Mary Clarence and Flapjack, not to mention Eddy and Keith, Rob Fox and Neville agree that free speech is free speech, after all.
Then we could bring them to an art gallery in the heart of Middle England and read them something from Great Britain’s new Poet Laureate.
Maybe we could introduce them to the Phelps family, and discuss how Maine’s Governor has just passed the same-sex marriage bill, and how much money Rick Warren had to pay to have his picture on the cover of Time Magazine. He is a terribly influencial man, you know, and I’m not so sure he’s such a f*cking liar like everybody says he is. Sure would like to hear your slant on that, you rascal.
Do you suppose there’s any truth to the rumour that same-sex marriage will be legal in the entire USA within the next 10 years, and that the Americans will co-operate with the UN and the EU and decriminalize homosexuality all over the world, and that the dome of St. Peter’s Basilica at the Vatican will be covered with egg-foo-yung on account of gawd is punishing the world because the banks are charging scandalous interest rates on loans and you know what an abomination the Bable says that is, dontcha?
Oh my, look at the time. Gotta go walk the dog and have a cup of green tea, maybe listen to some of Oscar Peterson’s jazz piano, and then I suppose I should delete my spam that takes up so much space on my memory that I can’t download the pictures of a recent infant baptism in the family.
I’m sure the baby, who is a whole 4 days old after all, is old enough to know what he’s getting into, unless he turns out to be one of those guys who ‘walks funny’ when the hormones kick in, and then there will be hell to pay, if you’ll excuse my use of Tuscan mythology.
See ya later, pal.
QUOTE: And all this time, Heaven watches impassively, disinterested. Then, after 196,000 years, decides to intervene, sending an envoy, not to the chinese, greeks, or babylonians who could already do science, and philosophy, but to some illiterate peasants in palestine…. really, a Virgin Birth is more likely
I didn’t know you were into writing children’s fairy stories. I shouldn’t be surprised as that is what fairies do isn’t it?
Reality Check Wrote:
“I didn’t know you were into writing children’s fairy stories. I shouldn’t be surprised as that is what fairies do isn’t it?”
Could you say more about what you mean by this statement!
HELP IS ON THE WAY
Can you get Eddy and Neville and the guys to come on this thread?
I don’t like to see these two morons harrass him so relentlessly.
AdrianT is putting up a good fight but this is getting a tad crazy.
Thanks for alerting us to this frantic threading from fanatics, and their relentless attacks on Adrian T . . . so when debate alludes then they think they can resort to homophobic abuse of Adrian T
Reality Check Wrote:
“I didn’t know you were into writing children’s fairy stories. I shouldn’t be surprised as that is what fairies do isn’t it?”
If they call Adrian T a fairy they are calling ever one on these threads and this site a fairy . . .
Reality Check & Louise:
So you did come to the party after all. And here I was looking all over the place for you because I’ve got a message for you from Jesus.
He is calling you, now, right now, at this very minute, don’t you understand plain english.
Jesus is calling you.
He has a job for you to do, something that ‘only’ you can do.
Are you willing to answer his call or aren’t you?
There’s this guy standing in the middle of a river and all the fish are on the other side of the boat and the blind man was cured and he went and told everybody when Jesus told him explicitely not to spread it around.
Who can you trust if you can’t trust a blind man who was miraculously healed.
Now they’ve got Jesus at the edge of a cliff and they want to throw him down. Don’t you see? Are you blind?
Jesus will be killed and if Jesus is killed now, how is he going to multiply the loaves and the fishes and finish Mel Gibson’s movie so that the pope himself could say that that was the way it really happened.
It doesn’t matter that Jesus had twenty times more blood in his system than the average human being and wore make-up, don’t you see, because Jesus was never a human being, he was from another planet, everybody knows that.
That was not a star above the manger, it was a flying saucer. It’s all written in the medical files, I mean the DaVinci files, but it’s a secret and only the initiated can know about it after a long, long time doing voluntary work and cooking hot dogs for homeless people who sleep on the streets in all kind of weather and people walk by them and sneer at them as if to say why don’t you get a 9 to 5 job like us normal people and have 2 and 1/2 children and live in tiny colored boxes made of ticky-tacky.
Well if you’re going to be that way, I am just going to have to tell you the truth and say that you don’t make much sense to me either.
Is that all you do all day is play with your computer and act like inquisitors? Now don’t try to make me believe that Jesus told you to do that because you didn’t go to see Jesus when I told you in plain english that he was calling you and that he had something ‘only’ you could do.
Why do you think they put so much money in the collection baskets? No, no, no, it’s not to pay for Tammy Fay’s eye make-up, that was just a rumour started by that Thomas of Aquinas guy who never did learn the difference between a rational animal and a human being, but boy did he make it big on the charts. The astrological charts, I mean.
Did you know that he was born at exactly 12 o’clock noon? Now tell me, what are the chances? Go ahead and tell me, you know everything, don’t you?
Tell me this then, how did the turtle turn itself upside down on top of a fence post? No cheating now. Don’t you sneek a peak in the book of wisdom or Nehemiah will come after you and then you’ll be sorry.
Joshua will come and blow your walls down and Moses will go to see the pharoes’ wife in the middle of the night…well, I better not get into that because her husband was in bed with her brother at the time and then David, of all the nerve, looked at Bethseda having a bubble bath with that soap that smells like roses, you know. I think you can buy it on sale at Wal-Mart, but only between 2 and 4 on Tuesday afternoons.
Are you listening to me? Are you sure? How do I know you really, really forgive me for calling you a woman. How was I spposed to know you were really a man and that Reality check was the woman in the family. You never tell the truth about yourselves, do you.
What do you mean I sound like a raving lunatic who has spent too much time in the sun? That wasn’t me, that was Charlston Heston and did he make a killing on that one.
Well, I think I’m making as much sense as you are, so there. You are the one who started this, not me, and I already told you Jesus was calling you and you didn’t go.
If you don’t go, why should anybody else go? You know he wants you to do something that nobody but you can do, I told you so I don’t know how many times. Thick or what?
Well, I realize now that I’m only talking to an answering machine because you haven’t said a word. Either that or you haven’t forgiven me, or that you don’t care about me anyway, so why should I care about you.
I can’t spend all day here. I’ve got to go to work. Did you know that I am employed by the city to watch the tulips grow? Yea, well I thought so too but that’s what Jesus told me to do and he said that’only’ me could do it, so don’t you come around and look at the tulips growing in this town, because Jesus asked me first.
Thank gawd you’re here, I was starting to believe my own nonsense.
Do you know how to get in touch with any of the others? AdrianT would help each one of us, you know, and this is really getting out if hand.
It’s 7:30 a.m. here and I’ve been up all night looking for Adrian and I’m so glad I found him. ButI’ve got to get some shut eye so I’ll see you later, OK.
OK- I have to put this in perspective – because when I read some of these threads I start to feel a little bit disappointed.
What are we trying to achieve here? (By ‘we’ I refer to the sane comments i.e. not those based on religious dogma, rather those based on original, creative thinking.
I am just wondering if we are indulging people who ought not be given too much time – perhaps this would best be spent in therapy.
So, my perspective: social trends regarding the acceptance of homosexuality show that homophobia associates with a dying religious dogmatism most prolific in the ageing populations (in Westerns societies). Therefore my theory is this: that there is slowly emerging evolution of understanding and valuing of love and loving relationships. This seems to be a meta-trend influenced by complex patterns of group movements. This is being retarded by the influence of religious fundamentalists but in such an overwhelmingly insignificant way now that their voices just become redundant.
This is not an argument for non-action. Because actions are dispositions for these trends; however, I sleep at night by reminding myself that people are fundamentally good and socially progressive – and when I put things in perspective – my desire for social justice reminds me what a tiny (and dying) breed religious homophobes have become. I am ready for their extinction – which is inevitable, all we need is patience.
So, my suggestion, if you agree, is this: humour them and pity them – but don’t bite!! They need to do their own self-work. No one can do it for them – honestly, my fingers are crossed for them.
PS – I hope that sounds patronising, because I am being.
This thread has drifted from the original point: should schools be allowed to teach that some of their pupils are intrinsically disordered and sinful by their nature? The corrollery being that such pupils will get less protection from bullying and worse pastoral care. THAT is the issue, and the answer clearly is that this is abominable.
All the rest, from the religious nuts who invade occasionally (and why the F*** do they infest our sites when they ban us from theirs?!) is persiflage. They feel compelled, obviously, to try and say us (but then get huffy when they’re told to butt out).
We can’t argue with fundies. Their mindset is that we’re evil and god has told them to save us. They believe every mutually-contradictory word in their particular version of the bible, they wouldn’t know objective truth if it bit them.
I keep on saying “ignore them”. Tey say nothing new, nothing of value, and nothing meant charitably. They intend to hurt, insult, and annoy. Their self-righteous stances makes it a time-wasting and pointl;ess exercise to respond. The responses here are well-thought out, but pointless: you can’t change bigots.
I meant “save u” not “say us”
Blimey, I thought once a thread disappears, nobody would notice. thank you JP :-)
Mea culpa mihangel, for provoking these responses :-) I don’t know if it’s completely pointless. Look, it keeps RealityCheck safely behind the screen, dreaming up nonsense, instead of planning to blow up abortion clinics or something.
All argument is a good test in sharpening the mind. They bleat out the same things and I repeat the same challenge. Most importantly, do you think we can take this thread to 200 comments?
Mihangel apYrs and Richard . . . yes we could ignore them . . . you are both absolutely right, why bother with people who are incapable of reasoning.
The original thread was:
“Faith schools to be allowed to tell pupils homosexuality is wrong”
As Adrian mentions . . . discussion with the Religious Fanatic on here will sharpen our minds. Personally I feel this is important because this will make us more adept at that to dealing with the fanatic’s offline who want to breed the next generation of Egays.
A number of us think this preparation is urgent and important. Faith schools do not seem to be disappearing as you so wish they would . . . they have been increasing. Unfortunately the natural decay of fundamentalism you see as inevitable . . . we have less optimism with. . . although I would like to agree with
Adrian-T, I see you have been doing a very gallant job fighting these two poor sick delusionals, Louise and the self-styled “Reality Check”!
One can’t argue with people as sick as these. Have a look at schizophrenia.com and the many threads in its Forums. One thing that is stated time and time again by people working with delusionals is that it is futile arguing with them. There may come a time when their sureness in their delusions unravels. You can enlighten them then. It is also possible to waken them to the fact that they are suffering from a mental illness, i.e. delusions, by thrusting them “rock-bottom”, so to speak, i.e. by causing some massive emotional upset which suddenly enables them to catch a sliver of an image of their deluded selves.
I have a dear friend, a lecturer at a fine and esteemed university, fluent in five languages, and he has succumbed to Hallucinations, i.e. a particular mental illness. The trouble is he believes the thoughts he has are true, and real. He hears sounds in his head and he believes they are real, coming from some external reality. However, they are, of course, all a product of his unwell mind – just as Jesus and the prophets thought their delusions were real. Hopefully the day will come when my old friend’s sureness that these hallucinations and their associated thoughts will falter. Until that time comes professional mental health workers have advised me it’s simply no use arguing with him. Look at the Schizophrenia.com threads and you see the same message, time and again.
These religious people are exactly the same as delusionals. They are utterly sure that the non-existent exists and that frightful and awful things will happen to them if they don’t obey rules ordained by a whole range of supernatural beings. They don’t do what mentally healthy people do and seek evidence that the “external reality” exists. Instead, they do exactly the same as all delusionals: they believe that their fearful thoughts and fantasies are true.
As I say, sometime in the future Louise and “Reality Check” may well unravel. Neither of them are anywhere near as sure as they try to appear. (They can’t be, of course, because there is no god. Period.) Perhaps their unravelling will happen when they develop cancer or some awful disease and they wonder how it could possibly be happening to them when they have been so good and obedient to their supernatural fathers. Their faith may be dented. They may then begin to question why so many millions of innocent good people on the face of the Earth are subjected year after year to such misery by their loving “god” – the one apparently overseeing the endless cavalcade of Earth’s floods, hurricanes, droughts, quakes, and diseases.
The other thing to do is to knock them off their pedestals in public, away from their gangs. Mocking them in front of the normal secular public can often work: the emotional shock can suddenly jolt them into the realization that they are seriously out-of-kilter with healthy well-adjusted individuals. I never let go of an opportunity to show absolute incredulity to god-botherers who have the arrogant effrontery to slither up to my front-door with their pamphlets and invitations to join their sad self-congratulatory delusioned little circles.
So, just to finish, Adrian-T, well done, but call it a day with these two. This “Louise” and the self-styled “Reality Check” are sick individuals trolling this website in the belief that there is a big supernatural entity in the universe putting gold stars beside their names everytime they stick up for him. Childish really. Infantile actually. These kinder should simply now be ignored.
‘…humour them and pity them – but don’t bite!!’.
Well, I might be a bit daft, but I can recognize good advice when I hear it.
Could you please find a way to alert me the next time you are going to patronise us. I wouldn’t miss it for the world.
In fact, I think (therefore I am) that you should submit your new definition of patronisation to the Webster’s Collegiate Dictionary. You know how a word can take on different meanings depending on the circumstances, and how a language does evolve whether we like it or not.
I would suggest your new definition of the word ‘patronise’ be something like ‘to support’, ‘to be compassionate’, ‘to be part of a community in cyberspace’, ‘to be kind’… need I go on?
Mihangel ap Yrs (179):
Can I make a suggestion?
Now don’t be offended because I am about to suggest a tremendous modification in your identity, and you know that my skin is as thick as an elephant’s (Acadian, you know) and that I respond very well to direct honesty, e.g. being told to f*ck off.
To be brief, may I suguggest that you drop the ‘Mih’ and call yourself by your real name:’Angel’?
Well, I’m not surprised to hear you say that because there really is no scientific proof that angels exist. But what if we were to use the name to describe your propensity to believe
1) that we can’t argue with fundies,
2) that we cannot change bigots,
3) that we ignore the hurt, the insults and the annoyance of hermit crabs, I mean religious crackpots, and
4) that you allow me to express how I feel about you.
Furthermore – no, I’m not finished yet so you just sit back and have a sip of coffee – I suggest you change the ‘ap Yrs’ in your name to ‘Up Yours’ when posting a comment to some religious, single-minded parthenogenesistist to emphasis a particular attitude that is currently enlightening the new millenium.
Well, I hope you have some idea of what I’m about to tell you.
In the first place, having been brought up to believe in a gawd that amuses himself, herself, itself by punishing the animal, the mineral and the vegetative species in this part of the cosmos, I feel I must be brave and act gawdlike with you, and you know me well enough to know that I may not be up to the challenge on account of the fact that I am an old fart, not a young one anymore.
In the first place, you are to purchase a CD of Beethoven’s Emperor Concerto (some call it the 5th Concerto, but that is confusing because Ludwig also composed a 5th Symphony, and there’s a world of difference between a Concerto and a Symphony, e.g. in a Symphany the musicians have to perfect the art of yawning unnoticably when their instruments (and don’t you go taking that the wrong way) are omitted from the musical score.
Furthermore, you are to play the ‘Emperor Concerto’ by Beethoven, remember that, by Beethoven, not by AC/DC, on your out-of-sight sound system with little candles burning brightly all over the place when ou are alone, in complete solitude, and be careful not to let the wax fall on the surface of your furniture.
You are to play it from beginning to end while the phone is off the hook, and you may have an ounce or two of brandy providing you use a proper brandy sniffer if in fact you are inclined to take a drop from time to time. If not, well a root beer will do just as well providing you use a large crystal glass with the spin-wheel design cut into it… but the design is optional although it must be crystal, the Austrian one would be a good choice I would say.
There’s more… I know quite a bit about the furiousity of gawd and boy are you going to get it now from me.
You are to go out and purchase a punching bag, you know the kind that are the size of a basketball and can be suspended from the ceiling, and a pair of those black ‘leather’ gloves so that the delicate skin of your knuckles won’t be bruised when you express your aggressivity 18 times a day.
Now, the trick is this. Once you have done the two punishments I am imposing on you because I’m the one playing the role of gawd here, not you, you may experiment in integrating the two activities, in which case once or twice a week will suffice according to the team of psychiatrists I have consulted at my own expense regarding a rascal like you.
Finally, because I believe you had a basically good intention – blowing up an abortion clinic is something I hope never to see again – oh yes, I can see everything that’s going on because I have a three-year subscription to Google Earth – you are forbidden to eat fish & chips for the next three (3) days. You know very well that macoroni and cheese is just as nourishing and it can be quite tasty with a toasted piece or two of garlic bread.
I’m afraid I cannot apologize for punishing you like this because the Vatican would never forgive me if I start apologizing every time I’m simply being what I am.
This a free cosmos, after all, and just because the holy farter wants to go to the wholly land and refuse to visit the museum commemorating the execution camps of those darling little scorpions – I believe they called themselves Nazis, isn’t that an original name – doesn’t mean that I can allow myself to be soft on you because I believe you are such a sweetheart. There I go getting all mushy again, don’t you just hate that!
Enfin, Andrew, you’ve put up a good fight and you deserve a wreath of golden leaves around your head, and don’t forget to put a picture of yourelf wearing nothing but that wreath on the front page of PinkNews.
Now you know why some of my friends call me ‘Babylon’ because I am inclined to ‘babble-on’ from time to time to time to time… now don’t forget, even if you have to sell your Porsh to pay for it, you are to buy a CD of the EMPEROR CONCERTO by Ludwig von Beethoven.
Now do you believe that I am the one who is a ‘crazy old coot’ and will you please forgive me so that I won’t wake up crying in the middle of the night?
Mihangel is Cymraeg for “Michael” – my given name. The apYrs is my family name transposed into the same language (ap=”son of”)
Your comments are always interesting if sometimes idiosyncratic – and all the better for that.
I have learned to ignore the loonies on our websites, face to face is somewhat different.
Dors bien, je t’embrasse
I am really sorry – I think I might have given the wrong impression!
My comment about patronising was directed ONLY at the religious fundies – and I therefore feel justified in taking (rightly or wrongly) a condescending tone…….you and others were not included as I would not wish to ‘meet you’ on any other level than an equal contributor to the conversation.
It’s just that when i read/listen and ‘deal with’ the views and arguments expressed by religious fanatics – I kind help thinking of them as repressed and ‘removed’ children.
Thankyou JP for your cultural recommendations. I don’t know about Beethoven – OK not right now, I’ve got too much house music in my head. Maybe later.
Anyway, I can understand Eddy’s point. But at gay pride parties etc, we see evangelical cranks protesting, trying to harrass people at festivals. So if it gives some kid the balls to bite back, persistently, how they know god’s mind, that’s a good thing.
I can’t just ignore unreason. When it comes to lame arguments, I suppose it’s like a clay pigeon shooter… ‘just one more round’. There is the need to shoot them down !!
However, indeed, this thread has run its course. It probably is tedious for those who want to stay on topic: when you ask them for reasons, they all come back to the same thing.
I genuinely imagined, once a thread disappears from the front page, people just forget about it – clearly not :-)
Mihangel ap Yrs (186):
Have you ever discovered a new world?
That’s what I discovered on Wicipedia and Google Earth a few minutes ago when I typed in Cymraeg. You’re Welsh!!!
I saw a video clip of a festival at Aberystwyth, a photo of the Aber War Memorial, and another of a view of the sea and seafront in Aber. And ther’s enough mateial there to keep me busy for weeks.
What a beautiful coast. I could almost smell the salt air because I live on the southern coast of la Baie de Chaleur (Chaleur Bay).
And the father of one of my oldest friends here in Bathurst is originally from Wales. His name is Michael Ivey, straight, but what a handsome and wholesome looking man, big smile, very warm and friendly, and kind.
The things you learn on PinkNews!!!
Je t’embrasse moi aussi, en toute amitié.
Apologize? Apologize? Does a prince apologize to a stable boy?
Whatever ambiguity was in your post …I’ve done a lot worse than that, buddy.
Don’t give it a second thought.
One of the first things I checked out about PinkNews was to see if there were archives, and there are. Threads don’t disappear,they are stored in the archives, and I am an archive-nut!
QUOTE: I can’t spend all day here. I’ve got to go to work. Did you know that I am employed by the city to watch the tulips grow? Yea, well I thought so too but that’s what Jesus told me to do and he said that’only’ me could do it, so don’t you come around and look at the tulips growing in this town, because Jesus asked me first.
You really must get this rantI can’t spend all day here. I’ve got to go to work. Did you know that I am employed by the city to watch the tulips grow? Yea, well I thought so too but that’s what Jesus told me to do and he said that’only’ me could do it, so don’t you come around and look at the tulips growing in this town, because Jesus asked me first. published jean. If would appear in every library in the fairy story section.
You really must get this published jean. If would appear in every library in the fairy story section.
QUOTE: my desire for social justice reminds me what a tiny (and dying) breed religious homophobes have become.
I am not afraid of homos.
QUOTE: PS – I hope that sounds patronising, because I am being.
I guess that is the best we can expect from you with such a damaged ego.
QUOTE: This thread has drifted from the original point: should schools be allowed to teach that some of their pupils are intrinsically disordered and sinful by their nature? The corrollery being that such pupils will get less protection from bullying and worse pastoral care.
And your evidence for such a supercilious statement that is without foundation or proof.
QUOTE: We can’t argue with fundies. Their mindset is that we’re evil and god has told them to save us. They believe every mutually-contradictory word in their particular version of the bible, they wouldn’t know objective truth if it bit them.
How do you know? have you spoken to all the millions of christians out there? If not, aren’t you being a bit hypocritical as you amke it very clear that objective truth is not essential to you. As long as you have a story that makes you happy, you will lie through your teeth hoping no one will see it for what it is.
QUOTE: Perhaps their unravelling will happen when they develop cancer or some awful disease and they wonder how it could possibly be happening to them when they have been so good and obedient to their supernatural fathers.
I do have cancer but it has made no difference to me because it says in the bible that it is appointed unto man once to die and then the judgment.
When I die I know where I will be going. Sorry that I will be waving to you in hell
Here we go again, like clockwork. Where’s the virtual rat poison? Reading this thread is like that feeling when you go down to the kitchen in the morning and find the bin bag has been nibbled at, with a collection of black pellets by the side.
Come on Reality Check, what is the age of the Earth? Give us a laugh…..
Reality Check said: I do have cancer but it has made no difference to me because it says in the bible that it is appointed unto man once to die and then the judgment. When I die I know where I will be going. Sorry that I will be waving to you in hell
Don’t you just love that, the way they cannot wait for you to suffer, to see you burning alive?
When swine flu hits – please don’t bother asking for tamiflu, since you don’t belive in evolution, which enabled such a drug to be developed in the first place.
I continue to ignore the attempts of “reality-check” to engage in a bitch fight.
Jean-Paul – “Wales” and “Welsh” are the names given to our country and people by the English “invader” – it means something like “foreigner” – rather an insult since the Celts were here first! However, that’s just a little history lesson, nationality is slightly primitive in hte world I want to see.
I think anyone seeing the venom spat out by “reality-check” will be able to judge the closeness of his religion to that touched on fleetingly in his book.
Amazing, 200 posts of nonsense :-)
Mihangel ap Yrs (199):
Thanks for that insight. I have a general knowledge of the history of GB, but nothing specific about Cymraeg.
Yea, about this reehal-hitty-tcheque thing, it seems to me that Eddy (183) has seen all this before, and he has helped me to get a grip on it.
Personally I do not have a problem ignoring the slithering slug.
“Reality Check said: I do have cancer but it has made no difference to me because it says in the bible that it is appointed unto man once to die and then the judgment. When I die I know where I will be going. Sorry that I will be waving to you in hell
Don’t you just love that, the way they cannot wait for you to suffer, to see you burning alive? When swine flu hits – please don’t bother asking for tamiflu, since you don’t belive in evolution, which enabled such a drug to be developed in the first place.”
AdrianT, quite. Absolutely. All these delusionals really ought to be turned away from all doctors’ surgeries, clinics, and hospitals with a kindly,
“But your dear Lord God hath determined that unto you this appalling must be. Bear it, ye Christian, and think only that the suffering of your Christ were a thousand times more. Now go on your way and be happy.”
simple-minded flummoxed little Christian person remains on clinic doorstep and remonstrates with medic.
YOU ‘EARD WOT I TOLD YA!
FUCK OFF! YOU AIN’T ‘AVING ANY TAMIFLU OR NUFFIN ELSE!”
It’s panto! Brilliant stuff! Hilariously funny!
Simple-minded Christian drags himself slowly off-stage, muttering, “Oh, well, at least after my awful awful death, I am going to go up into a divine and splendid paradise, with waterfalls, and sunshine, and flowers, where everything is always green, and where all the creatures love each other, just like in Bambi and Beatrix Potter . . . “
Reality Check – I am really sorry to hear of your illness.
Let us now put our hands together and pray. O God, we gather here today to ask you to free our schoolchildren from being forced to go through this charade every day. As you know, O Lord, because You see all, British law requires every schoolchild to participate in “an act of collective worship” every 24 hours. Irrespective of what the child thinks or believes, they are shepherded into a hall, silenced, and forced to pray – or pretend to.
If they refuse to bow their heads to You, they are punished. This happened to me, because I protested that there is no evidence whatsoever that You exist, and plenty of proof that shows the texts describing You are filled with falsehoods. When I pointed this out, I was told to stop being “blasphemous” and threatened with detention. “Shut up and pray,” a teacher told me on one occasion. Are you proud, O Lord?
Forcing children to take part in religious worship every day is a law worthy of a theocracy, not a liberal democracy where 70 per cent of adults never attend a religious ceremony. That’s why the Association of Teachers and Lecturers – one of the teachers’ unions – has recently moved to ask the Government to stop forcing its members to take part in this practice.
Why does this anachronism persist in this blessedly irreligious country? For all their whining that they are “persecuted”, the religious minority in Britain are in fact accorded remarkable privileges. They are given a bench-full of unelected positions in the legislature, protection from criticism in the law, and vast amounts of public money to indoctrinate children into their belief systems in every school in the land.
I can understand why the unelected, faltering religious institutions cling to this law so tightly. When it comes to “faith”, if you don’t get people young, you probably won’t ever get them. Very few people are, as adults, persuaded of the idea that (say) a Messiah was born to a virgin and managed to bend the laws of physics, or that we should revere a man who at the age of 53 had sex with a nine-year-old girl. You can usually only persuade people of this when they are very young – a time when their critical and rational faculties have not yet been developed – and hope it becomes a rock in their psychological make-up they dare not pull out.
But why do the rest of us allow this fervent 5 per cent of the population to force the rest of our kids to follow their superstitions? Parents can withdraw their children if they choose – but that often means separating the child in an embarrassing way from her friends and exposing them to criticisms from the school, so only 1 per cent do it. Most don’t even know it is an option.
More importantly still, why is worship forced on 99 per cent of children without their own consent or even asking what they think? As the author Richard Dawkins has pointed out many times, there are no “Christian children” or “Muslim children”. I was classed as “Christian” because my mother is vaguely culturally Christian, although at every opportunity I protested that I didn’t believe any of it. Children are not born with these beliefs, as they are born with a particular pigmentation or height or eye colour. Indeed, if you watch children being taught about religion, you will see most of them instinctively laugh and ask perfectly sensible sceptical questions that are swatted away – or punished – by religious instructors.
I am genuinely surprised that no moderate religious people have, to my knowledge, joined the campaign to stop this compelled prayer. What pleasure or pride can you possibly feel in knowing that children are compelled to worship your God? Why are you silent?
The prayer-enforcers offer a few arguments in their defence. At first, they claim it instils “moral values” in children. The scientist Gregory S Paul produced a detailed study in 2005 to find out if rates of murder and rape went up as levels of religion went down. He found the exact opposite. On detailed international comparisons, the more religious a country is, the more likely you are to be stabbed or raped there. There isn’t necessarily a causal relationship – but it blasts a bloody hole in this claim.
Of course, if you actually followed the morality explicitly commanded by the Bible, Torah and Koran, you would kill adulterers, gay people, apostates, and disobedient children and be sent to prison. Thankfully, the vast majority of religious believers long since decided to disregard much of “God’s word”, because it is manifestly appalling, and read it metaphorically. But you have to strip away an awful lot of the texts as metaphor before you get to a few bland lessons about being nice to each other. Can’t we get the lessons about niceness from somewhere else, without the bogus metaphysics and endless injunctions to kill our friends?
Once the morality defence dissolves, the religious switch tack, and claim that children indoctrinated into religion perform better academically. As “proof”, they point to the fact that faith schools perform somewhat better on league tables. It’s true – but look a little deeper.
There have been two detailed studies of this, by the conservative think tank Civitas, and the Welsh Assembly. They found faith schools get better results for one simple reason: they use selection to cream off highly motivated children of the wealthy and weed out difficult, poor or unmotivated students who would require more work. Once you take into account their “better” intakes, faith schools actually underperform academically by 5 per cent (and that’s before you factor in all the other problems they cause).
I am absolutely not saying that schools should teach children to be atheists. No. Schools should take no position on religion. They should be neutral, and equip children with the thinking skills – asking for evidence, and knowing how to analyse it rationally – that will enable them to make up their own minds, when they wish, beyond the school gates. How can a religious person object to that, without admitting that open-minded, evidence-seeking adults would see through their claims in a second?
And so, O Lord, I ask you – and the British Government – to set our children free, at last, from being forced to worship You. Amen – and hallelujah.
Article entitled “Dear God, stop brainwashing children” by Johann Hari, in “The Independent”.
Eddy . . . thanks for that – perhaps you also check out the religous news on the National Secular Societies website.
If not, I can recommend it . . . excellent updates everyday.
QUOTE: The prayer-enforcers offer a few arguments in their defence. At first, they claim it instils “moral values” in children. The scientist Gregory S Paul produced a detailed study in 2005 to find out if rates of murder and rape went up as levels of religion went down. He found the exact opposite. On detailed international comparisons, the more religious a country is, the more likely you are to be stabbed or raped there. There isn’t necessarily a causal relationship – but it blasts a bloody hole in this claim.
A forty-eight page study to be published two weeks from now in the peer-reviewed journal, Psychological Reports, compares extensive and newly released Center for Disease Control (CDC) data, concluding that homosexuals are far more likely to engage in illegal and socially dangerous behaviour than heterosexuals. In fact, according to the study, homosexuals are over 107% more likely to have been booked for illegal activity than heterosexuals.
The data for criminality indicated that 22.8% of homosexuals have been booked for committing a crime, compared to 11% of heterosexuals. This statistic held true for both gays and lesbians. “That’s noteworthy,” said Cameron, “It shows a rebellion, an unwillingness to go along with society.”
The study also indicated an increase in the use of illegal substances, driving while intoxicated, and dangerous sexual practices, including intercourse with multiple and HIV+ partners.
Thankyou Richard. I take comfort that whether it brings me to an early death or not, my future is assured.
Reality Check . . . O dear you really are scrapping the bottom of the barrel aren’t you
You quote from “Psychological Reports”
A Journal published by the Cameron Group
A Journal which people people pay to have an article published in it
A Journal with a right ring Christian fundamentalist bias
A Journal with serious methodological flaws
A Journal with zero rejection rates
A Journal ignored by academics
Nice Try Reality Check
You really are getting desperate aren’t you!
Well done, John K!
The delusional continues ever on in his obsessive aberration.
“Reality Check” quotes from “Psychological Reports”
- A Journal published by the Cameron Group
- A Journal which people people pay to have an article published in it
- A Journal with a right ring Christian fundamentalist bias
- A Journal with serious methodological flaws
- A Journal with zero rejection rates
- A Journal ignored by academics
Will this obsessed delusional now shrink away in hideously embarrassed SHAME, having now LOST SO MUCH FACE? Nope. He’s fuelled by hatred and obsessiveness. He’s consumed by it. On he will go in his hateful unhappiness . . . until one day he may well go too far.
Yes, well done Eddy and John for exposing this. Can Reality Check scrape the barrel and disgrace himself any more? He should have known that EVEN EXODUS ministries, the biggest ex-gay oprganisation, refuses to quote from Cameron, who was booted out of the APA in 1983
PAUL CAMERON: MISREPRESENTING RESEARCH TO DEFAME GAY PEOPLE – A CAREER BASED ON HATE
I have just picked this from Wikipedia to give you an idea of how flawed Cameropn’s work is. And how he is regarded in professional circles. Cameron’s audience isn’t the scientific community of course, it is the kind of ignorant, hate-driven people like Reality Check, whose understanding of science, as shown above, is zero.
“…..An APA spokesperson told The Boston Globe in 2005, “We are concerned about Dr. Cameron because we do believe that his methodology is weak.”
In 1984 the Nebraska Psychological Association issued a statement disassociating itself “from the representations and interpretations of scientific literature offered by Dr. Paul Cameron”. In 1986 the American Sociological Association passed a resolution condemning Cameron for “consistent misrepresentation of sociological research”. This was based on a report from the ASA’s Committee on the Status of Homosexuals in Sociology, which summarised Cameron’s inflammatory statements and commented, “It does not take great analytical abilities to suspect from even a cursory review of Cameron’s writings that his claims have almost nothing to do with social science and that social science is used only to cover over another agenda. Very little of his work could find support from even a bad misreading of genuine social science investigation on the subject and some sociologists, such as Alan Bell, have been ‘appalled’ at the abuse of their work.” In 1996, the Board of Directors of the Canadian Psychological Association approved a position statement disassociating the organisation from Cameron’s work on sexuality, stating that he had “consistently misinterpreted and misrepresented research on sexuality, homosexuality, and lesbianism”.
 From individuals
After Dr. Cameron submitted affidavits to the U. S. District Court of Dallas in Baker v. Wade (1985), Judge Buchmeyer wrote in his opinion that Cameron had “made misrepresentations to this Court”. However, Buchmeyer’s decision was later overturned by the Fifth Circuit sitting en banc, which specifically reversed the “misrepresentations” finding by Buchmeyer. FRI has disputed Judge Buchmeyer’s assessment of Dr. Cameron’s affidavits.
Epidemiologists Morten Frisch and Henrik Brønnum-Hansen argue that Cameron was wrong to infer reduced life expectancy from the fact that deaths among homosexually married partners in Denmark and Norway occurred at a lower median age than those among heterosexually married partners: “Because the age distribution among persons in same-sex marriages was considerably younger than that of people who had ever been heterosexually married, the average age at death among those who actually died during the observation period was, not surprisingly, considerably younger in the population of same-sex married persons.” Their own analysis found that excess mortality in Danish same-sex marriages since 1995 was “restricted to the first few years after a marriage, presumably reflecting preexisting illness at the time of marriage”. Similarly, critics have argued that obituaries in gay-themed newspapers, which Cameron used to estimate homosexual mortality, do not provide a representative sample of deaths and ignore surviving members of the same generation.
Cameron has also been criticized for placing responsibility for same-sex child sexual abuse on “homosexuals”; opponents state that someone who carries out such abuse need not have a homosexual orientation with respect to other adults.  Gregory M. Herek, a psychologist specialising in prejudice against sexual minorities, charges that Cameron misrepresented the literature he had reviewed and cited to support his claims, such as a Groth and Birnbaum (1978) study in which none of the participating child molestors actually identified as homosexuals, and none of those who were bisexual claimed to prefer men over women. Furthermore, while Cameron assumed all the same-sex molestations were perpetrated by homosexuals, he did not assume all the opposite-sex molestations were perpetrated by heterosexuals; he included a “bisexual correction” only for opposite-sex molestations that effectively increased the number of perpetrators described as “homosexual” without changing the number described as “heterosexual”.
Herek has published a methodological critique of the 1983 ISIS Survey in which he identifies at least six errors in sampling technique and data analysis. He concludes, “an empirical study manifesting even one of these six weaknesses would be considered seriously flawed. In combination, the multiple methodological problems evident in the Cameron group’s surveys mean that their results cannot even be considered a valid description of the specific group of individuals who returned the survey questionnaire.”
Well! If the self-styled “Reality Check” hasn’t already crawled away in total shame at having been so revealed as gull and fool, your repost will make him wish he could evaporate into nothingness and never be found by humankind again.
But he’s proven himself an obsessed delusional, completely without a normal sense of integrity and self-esteem, so he’ll most probably be back and ejaculating further total bunkum!
Adrian, what a splendid fighter you are! You strip them of their shiny vulgar armour and reveal them, for all the world to see, as PUNY!
By the way, Adrian, I do hope Jean-Paul is OK. Haven’t heard from him for a while, have you?
Adrian T . . . well done for fleshing out the vicissitudes of Cameron’s fall from academic grace . . . very enlightening and an interesting read . . . Bravo for your recent centaury duties.
Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation to everyone believing, both to Jew first, and to Greek;
QUOTE: Adrian T . . . well done for fleshing out the vicissitudes of Cameron’s fall from academic grace . . . very enlightening and an interesting read . . . Bravo for your recent centaury duties.
In your frenzy to look intelligent, one thing you all missed. The original article came from the Centre for Disease Control which is pro homosexual and is a government body with no agendas except to support the homosexual cause.
Don’t worry. I realise that people who are so full of rejection are not capable of computing the obvious.
Eddy – no I haven’t…hope he’s alright! I have been a bit busy over the last 72 hrs…seems comments flying everywhere, difficult to keep up with you all!!
Reality Check – as if we want a lecture on intelligence from a thick creationist numbskull like you, who is completely ignorant of science, with only one agenda, to promote hatred of gay people.
. . . no one is ignoring the problem of HIV infection and AIDS in western gay men . . . but whilst education with regards to sexuality is still poor in some education systems, how can transmission and premature death rates fall.
. . . but why are you ignoring HIV and AIDS in Africa where this is still and always has been a predominately heterosexuals issue. . . and here Christians are saying do not use condoms in the name of Jesus . . . how immoral . . . how unintelligent . . . how evil is that. . .
It seems like you only have one focus, on message, one concern . . . and it is gay gay gay.
Why are you so obsessed with homosexuals?
Why do you ignore heterosexuality?
Why do you ignore the immorality of some Christians?
I wish I could go to Palm Springs in California for the weekend.
Jean-Paul . . . I am getting on a plane right now . . . lets go . . . lol
“Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation to everyone believing, both to Jew first, and to Greek;”
He’s fucking AUTOMATON, guys. He has no control of his hardware! He spouts the brainwash spontaneously! It’s completely fucking programmed! It’s like one of those metallic creatures in “Dr. Who” or “Star Trek” or “Lost in Space”!
Hee, hee. LOST IN SPACE he certainly is.
Palm Springs – I made the mistake of visiting that place in AUGUST 2 yrs ago…113F in the shade….great place tho’
QUOTE: Reality Check – as if we want a lecture on intelligence from a thick creationist numbskull like you, who is completely ignorant of science, with only one agenda, to promote hatred of gay people.
Ladies and Gentlemen, i would like to introduce you to our main speaker tonight Adrian Tea. He has degrees in marshall words, humbug and anger mismanagement. His topic tonight is ” How to be a moron without really trying”
1Pe 1:3 What a God we have! And how fortunate we are to have him, this Father of our Master Jesus! Because Jesus was raised from the dead, we’ve been given a brand-new life and have everything to live for,including a future in heaven–and the future starts now!
…what a god indeed! the same one that put our solar system on a direct collision course with Andromeda, killed 99% of all life off that ever lived, gave us ebola, river blindness, a mainly inhospitable planet, eyes which are wired backwards and people who are dumb enough to think that man walked with dinosaurs. How fortunate we are to have a designer who was either too stupid or too cruel to be true :-)
And the AUTOMATON spouts again!
It has no control of either its hardware or software! It spouts its brainwash spontaneously!
It has wondered off the sets of such imaginative creations as “Dr. Who”, “Star Trek”, “Lost in Space”!
Rom 14:11 For the scripture says, “As surely as I am the living God, says the Lord, everyone will kneel before me, and everyone will confess that I am God.
Who but a slave wants that to be true?
Glad to think there is no unalterable, unassailable dictator, ready to commit me of thought crime, that only allows me to commit a right action to avoid punishment, and that forces me to abdicate personal responsibility.
Critical thinking cannot happen in the kneeling position. Hopefully Reality Check will come to realise what Mother Theresa discovered, that nobody is listening.
And the AUTOMATON spouts again!
It has no control of either its hardware or software! It spouts its brainwash spontaneously!
Adrian, LOL. Mother Bloody Theresa! Yep, some people benefited as a result of her delusion but deluded she was of course. Only the weakest of human beings must build their entire lives on the promises of a lie.
OK I’ll try again, my message is rejected. Mother Teresa tried to believe, and couldn’t, and as a result, turned to fanaticism.
See the link at:
youtube . com/watch?v=YNBj7QH8I8w
Joh 10:10 The thief does not come except to steal and to kill and to destroy. I Jesus, have come so that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.
And the brainwashed automaton helplessly ejaculates yet again!
“Reality Check”, reformat your hard-disc and then completely re-install, from fresh! (And this time don’t even let your fingers anywhere near any Christian installation programmes you may have. Burn the bloody lot.)
Be free. Be happy.
He needs more than a rebooting. I suggest some strong anti-virus software too.
“Like computer viruses, successful mind viruses will tend to be hard for their victims to detect. If you are the victim of one, the chances are that you won’t know it, and may even vigorously deny it.” (Dawkins hits the nail on the head!!)
PRAYZ JEEZUS! PRAYZ JEEZUS!!! *fapfapfapfapfapfapfapfapfapfap*
In order to test Thingy, God commanded Thingy to kill his son. Thingy proceeded to attempt to do so with utter conviction. If Jesus returned to Earth and commanded you to give him a blowjob, would you do it, Reality Check?
Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only-begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
I thought so. Would you spit or swallow?
Seems pretty to clear to me he’s swallowed already, Pumpkin Pie – swallowed the whole bloody bible like a hungry whore swallows mouthfuls of spunk. But of all the printed works he could have chosen, what a pity to swallow the primitive made-up imaginings of a collection of crazy old scribblings begotten by one who was begotten by the other.
Haha, too true. I’d like Realty Cheque to tell us why he chose Christianity over Jainism or Zoroastrianism or Buddhism. How do you KNOW you’re going to end up in Valhalla (or wherever) when you die?
“O mankind! verily there hath come to you a convincing proof from your Lord: for We have sent unto you a light that is manifest.
Then those who believe in Allah and hold fast to Him soon will He admit them to Mercy and Grace from Him and guide them to Himself by a straight Way.”
Qur’an 4:174-175 Surah An-Nisaa
Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
Qur’an 22:1-8 “O mankind! Fear Allah! For the convulsion of the Hour of Judgment will be a thing terrible! That Day ye shall see every mother giving suck shall forget her suckling-babe and every pregnant female shall drop her load unformed: thou shalt see mankind as in a drunken riot yet not drunk: but dreadful will be the Wrath of Allah.”
Leviticus 21:9 “And the daughter of any priest, if she profane herself by playing the whore, she profaneth her father; she shall be burnt with fire.”
That reminds me, I need to speak to the plumber for a quote for the bathroom….
O dear . . .
More religious automatons on drugs
Reality check – seems to be on LJC’s
(Lord Jesus Christ’s)
Islamic reality – seems to be on AA’s
O dear . . . Religious bum boys are all the same
. . . Fucked up
2Corinthians 5:17 So that if any one is in Christ, that one is a new creature; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.
“Ethiopians imagine their gods as black and snub-nosed; Thracians, blue-eyed and red-haired. Bit if horses or lions had hands, or could drawand fashion works as men do, horses would draw the gods shaped like horses and lions, like lions, making the gods resemble themselves.” (Xenophanes)
“Is it more probable that nature should go out of her course, or that a man should tell a lie? We have never seen, in our time, nature go out of her course; but we have good reason to believe that millions of lies have been told in the same time; it is, therefore, at least millions to one, that the reporter of a miracle tells a lie.” (Thomas Paine, ‘Age of Reason’)
@Reality check, Rationality check
I can see that you are still both high on drugs . . .
Let me know when you are not fucked out of your mind on LJC . . . and we will resume our discourse on reality.
Quran 7:204 “When the Quran is read, listen to it with attention, and hold your peace: that ye may receive Mercy.”
‘And unto such as you,
A maggot-minded, fanatic crew,
God gave the secret to you, and not to me??
Well, what matters it? Believe that too!!’
(Omar Khayyam, from ‘Rubaiyyat’, 11th century)
Islamic Reality check and Rationality check
. . . you can get anitpsychotic medication by getting a referral from your GP to a psychiatrist . . . so lets resume our discourse on reality once your mental states has been stabilsied
Heb 11:3 Faith convinces us that God created the world through his word. This means what can be seen was made by something that could not be seen.
So you keep creating new profiles . . . how clever.
Look at how warped and twisted you.
Yes, I know you want me to be a fundamentalist christain. . . but has it not crossed your mind yet that you are posting threads on this site because you want to give up your drugs, your “LJC”.
I put it to you this way . . . you want to leave your fundamentalism behind, but I understand it is very terrifying for you to contemplate living a life with out your “LJC” to give you a quick high.
More sock-puppets on this thread than the entire Bagpuss and Fingerbobs series put together :-)
Sock-puppets, muppets, Bagpuss and Fingerbobs . . . you got it AdrianT . . . you also sound like you might be around my age too if you remember . . . Bagpuss dear old Bagpuss.
Pipkins . . . ring a bell?
Joh 8:12 Then Jesus spoke again to them, saying, I am the Light of the world. He who follows Me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.
yeah yeah, John K, remember all that. Look i was brought up on crackerjack and Steeleye Span. Made me the fine specimen I am today. Still the right side of 40 tho’ :-)
AdrianT . . . yep, I remember crackerjack, steeleye span . . .
“Is Friday its Five to five and its ….”
“If I had a hat, I am not sure I would wear green willow all
around it though”
What ever happened to Mr Benn? . . .
Gita 2.38: “Treating pleasure and pain, gain and loss, and victory and defeat alike, engage yourself in your duty. By doing your duty this way you will not incur sin.”
Reality check . . . it is good to see you explore an eclectic spirituality
. . . it suits you
Science flies you to the moon;
Religion flies you into buildings.
Why did the little Amish boy get ex-communicated?
Guru Nanak: “Without contentment, we are never fulfilled,
Like vapid dreams, our goals and efforts are in vain.”
Gal 6:7 Do not be deceived, God is not mocked. For whatever a man sows, that he also will reap.
I agree . . . what ever one sows, one does reap. . . possibly ten fold
I can see that you have started sowing some good seeds for yourself reality check, with this comedy routine . . . very encouraging
Hi, John! Wow! I reckon the self-styled “Reality Check” is now so totally confused by all this “goodness” coming at him from all sorts of different archaic texts he doesn’t which way to turn. He’s probably been under the erroneous impression that Christianity has a monopoly on the prescription of “goodness”.
I always think there is something in being ecletic, know matter how archiac . . .
Confusion . . . wow . . . progress I hope.
God is not mocked – totally agree. god cannot be mocked because god cannot exist.
Difficult for me to comment on that one . . . I have always been an agnostic. . .
And so we can finally say
After so much delay
That this tedious thread
Is well and truly dead.
(just doing my bit for ‘poetry season’)
In the words of the today programme’s Jim Naughtie …’that’s all we’ve got time for……’. About time, too.
. . . alternatively we keep it going with your poetry AdrianT
I personally I liked your poem based on “A ring a ring of roses”
Very apt for the posey behaviour on the thread you had a dig at the time.
5:10 Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness’ sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 5:11 Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.
Mat 5:12 Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.
Blessed indeed. Matthew 5:11 has a ring of truth to it – it is a necessity to mock and ridicule the devout Christian, as the supposed Jesus warned his followers. Most people think such beliefs to be a combination of eccentric, ridiculous, nonsense, ignorant, babyish, inchoerent, coercive, deluded or hateful.
Of course elsewhere in Matthew, no matter how nutty your belief, no worries: he who perseveres to the end will be saved. Just like David Koresh for instance.
The ultimate contrick. This verse sums up why a believer cannot be altruist. You do good deeds, only to evade a wrong action, or to be bribed with eternal life. It plays to our solipsism, our self-centredness, our selfishness. A manifesto for slavery.
QUOTE: Blessed indeed. Matthew 5:11 has a ring of truth to it – it is a necessity to mock and ridicule the devout Christian, as the supposed Jesus warned his followers. Most people think such beliefs to be a combination of eccentric, ridiculous, nonsense, ignorant, babyish, inchoerent, coercive, deluded or hateful.
Most people!!!!!! You are woefully ignorant of reality. Most homosexuals maybe but most people!!!!! A few billion christians on earth with approx 100,000 a day joining us and you say most people!!!!! I would like to see some evidence for such a stupendous statement bearing in mind that most people!!! must total at least 3 billion or more. Have you asked them all? if you haven’t your statement most people!!!! is a lie.
I would love to know why politicians feel this deep, overwhelming need to pander to the monotheistic neanderthals. These people only produce screwed-up, bigoted progeny or yet ANOTHER crop of “ex-gays” who often have to spend YEARS wallowing in guilt and self-hatred–if they don’t commit suicide first. We do not need the government of ANY country pandering to their nonsense.
I would love to know why politicians feel this deep, overwhelming need to pander to the “don’t bother me with the truth” gaystaspo. These people only produce screwed-up, bigoted c*ock su*kers or yet ANOTHER crop of “sad gays” who often have to spend YEARS wallowing in guilt and self-hatred–if they don’t commit suicide first. We do not need the government of ANY country pandering to their nonsense.
You must admit, RealityCheck – 3 billion is a mass overestimation. 1.5 billion maximum. In any case, it’s only the same vocal minority of placard-waving crackpots like yourselves who make a fool of themselves at gay pride rallies.
Most people in civilised countries, for sure, have moved on from hatred and fanaticism.
IS THIS THE HATRED AND FANATICISM YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT TOM???
Radical Gay Activists Seek to Intimidate Christians
Since Nov. 4, Christians have reported increased incidences of church vandalism and sometimes-violent attacks for their support of traditional marriage.
The Nov. 4 passage of constitutional amendments banning gay marriage in California, Arizona and Florida has evoked a sometimes-violent response from radical gay activists who have vandalized churches, mobbed intercessors and disrupted a worship service in Michigan.
Intercessors with a house of prayer in San Francisco said they feared they might be killed Friday night during a routine prayer walk through the area’s Castro district, which has a large gay community. They said a crowd who thought they were marriage amendment demonstrators shouted lewd remarks, pushed them, threw hot coffee on their faces and threatened the prayer group leader with death.
One man reportedly hit an intercessor on the head with her Bible before shoving her to the ground and kicking her. Before police arrived, another house of prayer member said someone repeatedly tried to pull his pants down.
Play the world’s smallest violin.
If you try to impose your backward views on all of society and use the law to oppress a minority, you will get hatred back.
No one stepped into any churches – unlike the churches, who saw fit to interfere in the private arrangements of other people they did not know.
Still, these events are isolated incidents. I could list hundreds of incidents of fundamentalist nutcases going into ‘liberal’ churches and blasting everyone, like in Tennessee last year, or the other nutcase, David Koresh, the thankfully deceased, unraptured fat-faced ‘reverend’ Falwell who blamed 9/11 on gay people – it happens all the time, inspired by your holy books.
You should be pleased – such persecution enables you to blow it out of all proportion, and, with the help of the Alliance Defense Fund, to play the victim card and gives you a share in Calvary. After all, this life is just a rehearsal for the real thing, isn’t it?
Anyway, your time is running out – in a matter of years, gay marriage will be a fact in California, and you’ll see, it won’t affect your own way of life one iota. You will simply lose the right to dictate to others about how they should live their lives. There will always be forums like this to vent your anger and make an idiot of yourself though. That’s fine, it helps remind people of the moral necessity of atheism. :-)
Why don’t you stop doing it then?
Still, these events are isolated incidents.
Don’t bother me with the facts, I am happy in my ignorance.
or the other nutcase, David Koresh,
Whose David Koresh?
You will simply lose the right to dictate to others about how they should live their lives.
Of course if you are a homosexual it is OK to dictate to every one else.
That’s fine, it helps remind people of the moral necessity of atheism.
Waht’s moral about murdering millions of babies every year because they are inconvenient or less than perfect?
I guess by your response that you approve of the bigotry and hate of homosexuals against those who dare have a different opinion?
No one is imposing anything on you, RealityCheck. Stop being hysterical. Face the consequences of your actions.
It’s not enough to have a different opinion, to live and let other people live, though is it? Prop8 is an action, a final judgement, not an opinion; an action in which other people dictate to a minority, that their real, loving relationships shall have no recognition.
If you think your church has the right to meddle in other people’s private affairs, deny the right to state marriages – marriages are secular events, which owe nothing whatsoever to any religion – then, expect people to pass judgement on you, too.
You don’t need to be religious to have a moral consideration on abortion either. But if you’re nutty enough to call using the morning after pill murder, then you may as well accuse me of genocide last year for spraying a wasp nest.
David Koresh – blew himself and dozens of others to smithereens in Waco, Texas, 1993, because he believed Revelation too literally.
[No one is imposing anything on you, RealityCheck. Stop being hysterical. Face the consequences of your actions.]
I see that you have written this to Reality Check, but I could not resist a response. If no one is imposing anything on people who are not homosexuals how do you account for this happening?
“At least one pro-family organization that has opposed the pro-homosexual “Day of Silence” is being targeted with hate e-mails and telephone calls, including suggestions that officials go and kill themselves.
“You may not be gay, but you may be next,” said one e-mail, which included a photograph of a casket, according to Karen England, executive director of the Sacramento-based Capitol Resource Institute.
England said the hate mail has flooded in since her organization joined the “Day of Silence Walkout.” She also confirmed that she has filed a police report on the threats.
Hardly an example of “no one is imposing anything on you”, is it?
[It's not enough to have a different opinion, to live and let other people live, though is it?]
Perhaps you should practice what you preach. In other words, stop shoving your obsessive demands down people’s throats and allow them to make up their own minds. Then again, if you did that, you would not be able to impose your will on them.
[Prop8 is an action, a final judgement, not an opinion; an action in which other people dictate to a minority, that their real, loving relationships shall have no recognition.]
Obviously you cannot see the wood for the trees. If you want to shack up with another man, no one is going to stop you. You are free to do as you please. No one is dictating to you anything in that regard. In allowing that to happen you have received recognition for your abnormal way of life. What you want now is to force others to agree to making what you do as no different to marriage when it is obviously much different as in the average homosexual relationship is 18 months and most homosexuals supposedly in a monogamous homosexual relationship has a bit on the side at least once a week.
Apart from the fact that his article shows a hidden agenda behind your demands…
“Given the right to marry, many homosexual couples opt not to. The Netherlands was the first country to legalize homosexual marriage but only between 2-6 percent of Dutch homosexuals have taken “marriage” vows.
Survey author Maggie Gallagher stated, “In most places that have homosexual marriage it looks like the demand for it is pretty small.”
Gallagher says there’s an ulterior motive in homosexual activists making such an effort to legalize same-sex marriage. “If you affirm homosexual marriage as a civil right through the courts, you’ll have a powerful new legal tool to use against people who disagree with you.” Survey data indicated that homosexual marriages surge when first allowed, but then dwindle dramatically.”
[If you think your church has the right to meddle in other people's private affairs, deny the right to state marriages - marriages are secular events, which owe nothing whatsoever to any religion - then, expect people to pass judgement on you, too.]
Fortunately for us, but not for you, the church sees the wider picture, not just “what’s in it for me like the homos.” Your demands will cause chaos but we should not be surprised by that as I read a few weeks ago that it was said by one homo organisation that they are determined to overthrow the moral order and impose their immorality on everything and everyone.
[You don't need to be religious to have a moral consideration on abortion either. But if you're nutty enough to call using the morning after pill murder, then you may as well accuse me of genocide last year for spraying a wasp nest.]
First of all, I did not say you have to be religious to have a moral consideration on abortion. I asked the question “what is moral about murdering millions of babies every year because they are inconvenient or imperfect?
Second, I did not mention the morning after pill.
[David Koresh - blew himself and dozens of others to smithereens in Waco, Texas, 1993, because he believed Revelation too literally.]
And his relevance is…?
“Obviously you cannot see the wood for the trees. If you want to shack up with another man, no one is going to stop you. You are free to do as you please. No one is dictating to you anything in that regard. In allowing that to happen you have received recognition for your abnormal way of life. What you want now is to force others to agree to making what you do as no different to marriage when it is obviously much different as in the average homosexual relationship is 18 months and most homosexuals supposedly in a monogamous homosexual relationship has a bit on the side at least once a week.”
First, who the hell do you think you are to decide whether something is abnormal or not? It’s none of your business.
And as for the 18 months relationship and ‘having a bit on the side’ – based on what evidence? Total, utter garbage. Clearly, based on nothing but your own backward prejudices.
You are welcome to view gay people any way you like – but you have no business to make your particular religious views state policy, since homosexuality is a natural phenomenon and not a moral issue, because it is harmless and life-affirming.
It is a disgrace, that you attack people in their dignity and integrity by reducing loving relationships to ‘behaviour’. That is your right, but it should count for nothing. It is you who is dictating the terms not us.
And do not imagine that the california vote was overwhelming – it was a tiny majority, won by telling lies on the back of a slick, dishonest, hysterical campaign.
“Perhaps you should practice what you preach. In other words, stop shoving your obsessive demands down people’s throats and allow them to make up their own minds. Then again, if you did that, you would not be able to impose your will on them.”
- I’m not demanding anything of you. I am just making sure you don’t shove your fundamentaklist ideology down everyone’s throats by enshringin it in law, and stopping gay couples from making up their own minds. To repeat, in what way are your rights in anyway infringed?
You basically want to elevate rights for your obnoxious beliefs above the rights of other people. Feelings and beliefs deserve no rights. If your feelings are hurt – tough.
The barrage of hate mail from outraged public came in a response to an especially nasty video, which wrongly portrayed schools as enforcing a Day of Silence. It showed a girl ripping up a poster calling for tolerance and an end to bullying of LGBT people – a pretty disgusting piece of hate propaganda – ‘Lying for Jesus’ – sponsored by fanatics.
No surprise people react harshly. Of course, people who call for others to be harmed should be pursued by the law. But that’s hardly a common reaction.
Day in day out, christian fanatics send hate mail to people they dont agree with. Richard Dawkins and PZ Myers publish the abuse they get by the bucket load – calling for their murder, from fanatics, all of them inspired by Jesus. Gay rights, womens rights, scientists all get barrages of it – how hypocritical of you to ignore all this and focus on a particular one off incident!
That’s a poor show if that;’s the best you can do, it pales into comparison with the murders in the Tennessee church last year.
Another thing – Maggie Gallagher’s research is complete nonsense.
Report from the CBS (the Netherlands’ Central Bureau for Statistics) from last year:
“Het aantal huwelijken tussen homo’s en lesbiennes is gestegen. Dat blijkt uit cijfers van het Centraal Bureau voor Statistiek. In 2007 huwde meer Nederlandse homo en lesbische koppels dan het jaar daarvoor.
Het aantal homo koppels dat huwde in 2007 steeg van 1158 naar 1326, een toename van maar liefst 14,5 procent. In 2006 huwden 1266 lesbische koppels, een jaar later was dat 1416, een stijging van 11,8 procent. Uit voorlopige cijfers voor 2008 blijkt dat er opnieuw een stijging wordt verwacht omdat er dat jaar al een toename was van het aantal trouwende heteroseksuele koppels.”
So in 2007, there were 2742 gay and lesbian marriages, up about 13 percent, making 3.75 percent of a total of approx. 72,000 marriages in the whole country.
Sounds pretty much in line with statistics for the gay population.
[First, who the hell do you think you are to decide whether something is abnormal or not? It's none of your business.]
So I should mind my own business when adults molest children?
[And as for the 18 months relationship and 'having a bit on the side' - based on what evidence? Total, utter garbage. Clearly, based on nothing but your own backward prejudices.]
Can you prove the above statement? No of course you can’t because you know it is true as it is researched and written by homosexuals in Australia.
[You are welcome to view gay people any way you like - but you have no business to make your particular religious views state policy, since homosexuality is a natural phenomenon and not a moral issue, because it is harmless and life-affirming.]
I haven’t made my particular religious view state policy. Of course homosexuality is harmless that is why in western countries most AIDS cases are homosexuals and that is why there is more domestic violence amongst homosexuals couples than heterosexual couples.
[And do not imagine that the california vote was overwhelming - it was a tiny majority, won by telling lies on the back of a slick, dishonest, hysterical campaign.]
The fact is the majority did not believe the slick, dishonest and hysterical campaign of the gaystapo. In case you didn’t know, a majority is a majority. I don’t think for one moment you would be complaining if you had won by 10 votes.
[To repeat, in what way are your rights in anyway infringed?]
My right not have your fundamentalist ideology forced on me against my will and we are not stopping you from making up your own mind. If you want to shack up together go ahead but don’t force on us the idea that you are no different to married man and women because you are very different in a lot of ways.
[You basically want to elevate rights for your obnoxious beliefs above the rights of other people. Feelings and beliefs deserve no rights. If your feelings are hurt - tough.]
And you basically want to elevate rights for your obnoxious beliefs above the rights of other people as this news comment clearly shows…
“At issue in the case are leases from the City of San Diego allowing the San Diego Boy Scouts to build and operate campgrounds and an aquatic centre for use by the Scouts and the public. Lesbian and agnostic couples, who had never visited the facilities, sued the Scouts on a claim that they felt offended by the fact that the City leases the public property to a “morally straight” organization such as the Boy Scouts. There were no religious symbols at the facilities.
Richard Thompson, President and Chief Counsel of the Thomas More Law Centre commented, “We are pleased to join forces with ADF in this is important case to protect the Boy Scouts of America. Radical homosexuals are attempting to use every means possible to destroy the Scouts despite a recent U.S. Supreme Court decision that recognized their First Amendment right to have a morally-based policy excluding homosexual involvement.”
(Obviously the paedophile homosexuals want to muscle in on the Boy Scouts.)
And this report…
“The hypocrisy, hatred, and intolerance shown by the gay rights movement isn’t pretty,” said Randy Thomasson, president of the Campaign for Children and Families, a leading California-based pro-family group. “While claiming to be against hate and for tolerance and choice, the homosexual activists are revealing their hatred of voters and religion and showing their intolerance of people’s personal choices to support man-woman marriage. By attacking the people’s vote to protect marriage in the state constitution, homosexual activists have declared war on our republic and our democratic system.”
And this report…
In response, a group of at least 600 prominent German professionals from a wide variety of backgrounds has issued a public statement and petition to protest the “totalitarian aspirations of the gay and lesbian associations.” These organizations, they said, are trying to suppress freedom of expression and academic inquiry at the upcoming 6th International Congress for Psychotherapy and Counseling in Marburg.
My feelings are not hurt but your fellow homo in Canada was and had a man sent to jail as a result. Shouldn’t you tell him it’s tough instead of being so sensitive about everything?
[The barrage of hate mail from outraged public came in a response to an especially nasty video, which wrongly portrayed schools as enforcing a Day of Silence.]
Which they did and the hate mail came from homos, not the public.
[No surprise people react harshly. Of course, people who call for others to be harmed should be pursued by the law.]
I look forward to homos who attack law abiding citizens who don’t happen to agree with the gaystapo being pursued by the law.
[Day in day out, christian fanatics send hate mail to people they dont agree with. Richard Dawkins and PZ Myers publish the abuse they get by the bucket load - calling for their murder, from fanatics, all of them inspired by Jesus.]
Rather a sweeping statement without a shred of evidence.
[Gay rights, womens rights, scientists all get barrages of it - how hypocritical of you to ignore all this and focus on a particular one off incident!]
I can’t ignore what I don’t know about.
That’s a poor show if that;’s the best you can do, it pales into comparison with the murders in the Tennessee church last year.]
What you might call “a particular one off incident.”
[Another thing - Maggie Gallagher's research is complete nonsense.]
True to form that everyone who disagrees with you is always wrong. Perhaps I should have conceived a homosexual as they seem to know everything like teenagers.
What the hell are you talking about, you gibbering idiot?
You made false claims about the Netherlands, I blew your ignorant report out of the water, backed up with evidence.
- Provide real hard evidence that a school enforced a Day of Silence. A hate propaganda video is not evidence.
- The Boy Scouts of America must expect ridicule and mockery for enshrining unfounded obnoxious beliefs about LGBT people in its constitution, and excellent to see the public is challenging them. It will change its policy sooner or later, because it will be their job to prove sexuality is a moral issue, which of course, it isn’t.
“My feelings are not hurt but your fellow homo in Canada was and had a man sent to jail as a result. Shouldn’t you tell him it’s tough instead of being so sensitive about everything?”
- Sure will. After all, the supposed Jesus of Nazareth reportedly reminded his followers – including clueless godshites like yourself – to expect ridicule, and even expressions of hatred, because their ideas would appear to be stupid. It cannot be said enough, it’s a moral necessity, and I don’t want to be deprived of my right to do that by sime silly law.
Indeed, how can it be hypocrisy to show hatred and intolerance to a rabid bunch of religious nuts, the Campaign ‘for’ Children and Families. That’s what people who want to thrust their obnoxious backward beliefs into law must expect. Amazed after all this time, you are surprised by this.
[You made false claims about the Netherlands, I blew your ignorant report out of the water, backed up with evidence.]
As I said, everyone who disagrees with you is always wrong even if they are right.
[- The Boy Scouts of America must expect ridicule and mockery for enshrining unfounded obnoxious beliefs about LGBT people in its constitution,]
It doesn’t. It enshrines the right to be moral and upright which the court has upheld, but of course the court is wrong because it disagrees with you.
and excellent to see the public is challenging them. It will change its policy sooner or later, because it will be their job to prove sexuality is a moral issue, which of course, it isn’t.]
[and excellent to see the public is challenging them.]
The public isn’t challenging them. It was lesbians and atheists. But then the truth is not high on your agenda is it.
[It will change its policy sooner or later, because it will be their job to prove sexuality is a moral issue, which of course, it isn't.]
They didn’t say it was. That is just another one of your beatups to make you sound righteous. All they asked for is that they decide what their focus should be not you. As I said the court said they had that right.
[including clueless godshites like yourself]
You do like to show how intolerant and angry you are don’t you, and lacking in the abiltiy to make a rational argument without resorting to ridicule and name calling. If that is a sign of so called intelligence, I think I will avoid such claims.
[to expect ridicule, and even expressions of hatred, because their ideas would appear to be stupid]
Where does it say that in the bible?
[Amazed after all this time, you are surprised by this.]
What I am amazed at is the fact that you regularly do what you accuse others of doing and because you are homosexuals, you have a right to do so but others don’t.
[Indeed, how can it be hypocrisy to show hatred and intolerance to a rabid bunch of religious nuts, the Campaign 'for' Children and Families.]
And how can it be hypocrisy to show hatred and intolerance to a rabid bunch of homosexual nuts “the Gaystapo”?
To repeat – I don’t know if anything sinks into your thick, religion-addled mind. You made false claims about the Netherlands, which you didn’t back up with evidence. You were wrong. Deal with it.
expect ridicule, and even expressions of hatred, because their ideas would appear to be stupid]
Where does it say that in the bible?
- Matt 5:11; 10:22. He who hold on to the nuttiest beliefs, like believing the earth is 6,000 years old is saved of course.
“And how can it be hypocrisy to show hatred and intolerance to a rabid bunch of homosexual nuts “the Gaystapo”?”
Because LGBT people have no intention to interfere with your way of life or your church, whrere you can say what the hell you like. Whereas, hysterical religious nuts like you want to enshrine their obnoxious beliefs into law, ram it down everyone’s throats and deny other people the rights they are due, and will get eventually. That’s exactly what parties of God to, whether it’s Baghdad, Bali, Belfast or the Deep South really, isn’t it?
Tolerance has to be reciprocated. You won’t show it, therefore expect intolerance in return.
“The public isn’t challenging them. It was lesbians and atheists.”
So, the members of the public who stand for decency and fairness did challenge them, then.
- “They didn’t say it was….All they asked for is that they decide what their focus should be not you. As I said the court said they had that right.”
- Funny how you are happy to go with a court decision when it suits you, and scream about activist judges when it doesn’t. So long as they recieve no preferential treatment by the state then, that is their problem. It’s for the Scouts to give coherent reason for institutionalising bigotry, unless it wants an image as an organisation mainly for religious nuts. As I said, I’m sure it will see sense sooner or later.
“You do like to show how intolerant and angry you are don’t you, and lacking in the abiltiy to make a rational argument without resorting to ridicule and name calling. If that is a sign of so called intelligence, I think I will avoid such claims.”
It’s necessary, as you show contempt for people who mean you no harm whatsoever, or anyone else. You make unfounded claims, if not bare faced lies, that gay people are more likely to be child molesters – debunked nonsense;
most appallingly, you claim that gay people are incapable of settling down – also rubbish, because you haven’t explained anything about the methodology, or which peer-reviewed journal it appeared in. You won’t quote any original sources.
To come up with a comparative study of relationships, take a survey of all straight people and take into consideration all the relationships people have before they get married, too. And only include people in urban lifestyles. And only include those who are unmarried. Then you have a fair comparison.
Don’t think you are doing anything new by posting the same lies on here. We’ve seen them before, they have been debunked many times. They are only produced by religious organisations to keep their flock in check, and lapped up by people who know nothing about either science or sampling methodology.
[To repeat - I don't know if anything sinks into your thick, religion-addled mind. You made false claims about the Netherlands, which you didn't back up with evidence. You were wrong. Deal with it.]
I know. Everyone is always wrong if they disagree with the gaystapo. Deal with it.
[expect ridicule, and even expressions of hatred, because their ideas would appear to be stupid
Where does it say that in the bible?
- Matt 5:11; 10:22. He who hold on to the nuttiest beliefs, like believing the earth is 6,000 years old is saved of course.]
Matt. 5:11. Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me. Nothing here about ideas being stupid.
Matt. 10:22. All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved. Nothing here about ideas being stupid.
[Because LGBT people have no intention to interfere with your way of life or your church,]
“EAST LANSING, MI, May 14, 2009 Alliance Defense Fund attorneys filed suit in federal court Wednesday against a radical anarchist group that openly advocates the use of riots and crime to further its views in favour of homosexual behaviour. ADF attorneys filed the suit on behalf of Delta Township’s Mount Hope Church against the group “Bash Back!,” which invaded the church’s building during a worship service on Nov. 9 of last year.”
If that is non interference, I hate to think what interference is!!!
[Whereas, hysterical religious nuts like you want to enshrine their obnoxious beliefs into law, ram it down everyone's throats and deny other people the rights they are due,]
Judging by this report and many others you are the ones ramming things down people’s throats and denying other people’s rights. But then we shouldn’t be surprised with so many gaystapo nuts around.
[That's exactly what parties of God to, whether it's Baghdad, Bali, Belfast or the Deep South really, isn't it?]
They must have learnt that from you.
[Tolerance has to be reciprocated.]
We are very tolerant of the gaystapo who abuse and attack others because we won’t bow down and worship the gospel according to the gaystapo. In your bitterness and hate, you can’t see the obvious.
[So, the members of the public who stand for decency and fairness did challenge them, then.]
Not according to the report if you care to read it, which you probably don’t want to because it puts the attack squarely in your court.
[Funny how you are happy to go with a court decision when it suits you,]
It didn’t suit me as I have nothing to do with the Scouts. I was just quoting a case of lesbians wanting to force the Scouts to give up the basis for their existence.
[So long as they recieve no preferential treatment by the state then,]
[It's for the Scouts to give coherent reason for institutionalising bigotry,]
They don’t have to because they don’t. The organisation was founded on certain values and all they asked for was to be allowed to operate based on those values. The Court granted the right to do so.
[unless it wants an image as an organisation mainly