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100 protest outside London “gay cure” conference

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  1. “The event was bulled as having “a special focus on how religious professionals and friends/relatives can respond biblically and pastorally to those struggling with unwanted SSA (same-sex attraction)”.
    The event was ‘bulled’- as in BS?
    I greatly appreciated the subtle inclusion of the Freudian slip. It seems NARTH aren’t the only ones using psychological principles here!

  2. Awww, you went and corrected the typo… I preferred the earlier draft!

  3. Hey, I attended the conference SPENDING THERE BOTH days and trying to see what is going on. I have to tell you that the difference in intellectual levels was astonishing, to say the least! Inside, there were top class specialists with high intellectual capacity and the sincere desire to help those who struggle. Outside, a bunch of childishly aggressive idiots (protestors, seen on the photo) who couldn’t put their silly arguments together. The contrast was so obvious for anyone who could take part in the conference inside the premises and then speak to the yelling outsiders. The speakers were just BRILLIANT! I speak as a witness. Read their books, stupid!

  4. Yes, Alexander, it sounds like your intellectual level is truly astonishing.

  5. what the fuck is Alexander on about, lol.

  6. Yes, Alexander, you sound brilliant – witness from a person who believes humans came from dirt – yes, splendidly brilliant.

  7. Are you also one of therse nazis Alexander? People who peddle lies are not “brilliant”, and as for being a witness – a witness to what? Hatred? Bigotry? Lies?

  8. Alexander:

    One of the most brilliant men who ever existed – some would say ‘the’ most brilliant man – who lived well over two thousand years ago, and still has millions of the most intelligent men and women in awe, would surely have enjoyed the civilized exchange of IDEAS which took place at your conference.

    His name was Plato, and the IDEAS of this pillar of western civilaztion hypnotized me until I read his ‘Laws’. I still cannot believe that the same brilliant man who wrote the ‘Symposium’ and ‘Phaedrus’ could have written the ‘Laws’. I cannot believe it because Plato’s best-documented attachment, in which love, politics, and philosophy mingled, was for Dion of Syracuse, the nephew of the tyrant of Sicily and southern Italy, Dionysos.

    The depth of Plato’s feeling for Dion is clear in the epitaph he composed:

    ‘Now in your wide-wayed city, honored at last, you rest,/O Dion, whose love once maddened the heart within this breast’ (Greek Anthology 7.99)

    Furthermore, since I too have a tremendous admiration for brilliant, logical minds, I would refer you to the greatest British reformer of the 19th century, Jeremy Bentham, who wrote that same-sex relations give pleasure to those who engage in them and cause no harm to others. I daresay he inspired Baron Wolfenden.

    When writing of humanity’s irrational antipathies, Bentham compared homophobia to an unreasoning aversion that leads some people to kill harmless animals like toads and spiders.

    Thirdly, if you believe that the American Psyciatric Association is composed of anythinng else than the most BRILLIANT men and women on this planet, then I believe you are mistaking the civility and rhetoric of the speakers at your conference as a mask of virtue that conceals the most odious and mischievous passions of human nature: cruelty and intolerance.

    Finally, let me thank you for the insight you have given us into the unfolding of your conference, although any reasoning person could easily discern that you have told us absolutely nothing.

    I agree totally, 100%, with the slogan of the courageous gay demonstrators: LOVE NEEDS NO CURE.

  9. Alexander:
    Take your own advice and read their books, stupid. And I mean that in the most charitable way, of course.

  10. Stupidity knows no boundries

  11. Har Davids 27 Apr 2009, 7:03am

    I don’t know who is sponsoring these events, but they seem to be a utter waste of time and money. These people make a problem of ‘unwanted SSA’ and claim to have a cure, not all gays are waiting for. I wish they had a cure for greed, violent behaviour, bigotry and some other ills of homo sapiens. These problems should have priority on anyone’s agenda.

  12. Christina Alley 27 Apr 2009, 7:49am

    perhaps there should be a conference to help cure evangelical Christians of their delusions and antisocial behaviour. I mean, look at their irrational beliefs for which there is not only no evidence, but there is a wealth of scientific evidence against.

    Examples of irrational Christian beliefs disproved by science:
    The universe, planets, humans and animals were created in 6 days.
    The Earth is only 6000 years old.
    The earth is the centre of the solar system.
    Homosexuality is not present in nature/is not innate.

    I could go on with examples of delusional behaviour, but most people reading this already know what I am getting at – the truth is that the sort of Christians who support reparative therapy are the same people who willfully and doggedly ignore overwhelming scientific evidence just so they can preserve their beliefs that the bible’s metaphors and simplified parables are accurate fact. I have heard evangelicals use elaborate rationalisations to justify their irrationality. For example, all evidence showing the earth to be older than 6000 years old MUST have been planted by demons, the dinosaurs did not exist, carbon dating is inaccurate and an unproven technology, we don’t need science when we have the bible, etc. It is a wonder they stopped believing the earth is flat!

    This would all be harmless fun if it was not for the fact that gay people are being tortured and brainwashed under duress at the hands of these zealous lunatics.

  13. Hi Alexander! You will be interested to hear that we have now read all the evaluation forms, and they were 100% positive and mostly very enthusiastic – there was not one single complaint – so you are not the only one who thought it worthwhile. There were some very determined efforts by gay activists to get the conference stopped, and even to prevent the speakers coming into the country, but fortunately we still live in a free country, and will be running similar conferences in the future, have no fear. There were several people there who had been to the previous conference in 2007.

    I am reposting here my earlier comment on another thread:

    So what were you demonstrating against, exactly? Tolerance? Diversity? Freedom of choice? Not a lot of tolerance shown in some of the comments here, or from one or two of the protestors on the day, although most of it was good-humoured.

    The bouncers on the door were there for the security of the same-sex attracted people who came along to find out what the speakers had to say, and who were entitled to protection from intimidation. As the conference organiser, several leaders, some of the delegates – and even one of the speakers – came out to talk to the protestors, I hardly think they were ‘quaking in their boots’.

    For those who want to hear what was actually said, rather than what they think was going to be said, listen to the brief interview on Anglican Mainstream’s website.

    Full CDs will be available shortly of all the talks, and will be available from Anglican Mainstream.

  14. Keith SIMPSON 27 Apr 2009, 8:35am

    All very erudite..
    The simple fact is, that unless you (Narcosi..is it..?) know, from personal experience, what homosexuality is, you cannot know what you are talking about.
    And yes, I know that you do not know what leprosy is from personal experience but you can cure that, I have heard that argument, but it is not the same thing.
    I am homosexual, in the Kenny Williams mode, and never knew that there was anything ‘wrong’ with me until I realised that my difference was a problem….to others.
    To this day, I am quite happy with the hand I was dealt and I greet the suggestion that I might change, because to do so would be better for me,…I greet it with “What for..?”

    KEITH.
    SALFORD.
    KNOWN AS ‘TINKY WINKY’ also …!
    (FLAPJACK, I THINK REMINDED ME OF THAT!!)

  15. Keith SIMPSON 27 Apr 2009, 8:44am

    I had a problem with the verb ‘bulled’ (‘to bull’… is it…?)
    I thought it was summat to do with Papal Bull(a).

    I must be getting senile.
    (er..I AM getting senile!)

    Then I read Flapjack’s comment about a typo…
    It’s just dawned…DOHHHH…!

    You mean that infamous conference was ‘billed’ not ‘bulled.’
    (How aptly surnamed am I, @ SIMPSON!!)

    Er…on second thoughts..no actually, you were right first time, ‘BULLED’ as in… ‘BULL’… as in … ‘A LOAD OF….

    KEITH ‘TINKY-WINKY’
    SALFORD.

  16. “So what were you demonstrating against, exactly? Tolerance? Diversity? Freedom of choice?”
    Jill – Have you seen the movie “Thankyou for smoking” in which Aaron Eckhart plays cynical tobacco lobbyist Nick Naylor. When challenged about promoting cigarettes regardless of the consequences he also makes the “freedom of choice” argument.
    As a matter of fact you are the friendly front for an insidiously homophobic organisation, who bully gay people around the world into feeling crap about themselves then offer up a “miracle cure” which has been publicly discredited by all the major psychological institutions both in the UK and the USA.
    As one commentator said on the radio, you’d have about as much luck changing people’s dexterity from left handed to right handed, and it’s just as pointless. And please don’t lecture us about diversity when you’re attempting to eradicate ours.

  17. Would Jill like to enlighten us about two things. First, does she think that, for exmaple, my 14 year monogamous marriage to my beloved (same sex) partner, is some sort of illness of which both us should try to get cured? If so why, preferably without reference to the Bible which is relevant only to believers. Secondly, does she back the Civil Partnerships Act which is designed to help gay people bring stability into their relatioships and have them recognised by the state.

  18. Keith – if you are happy with the hand you were dealt – fine! Great! Nobody is trying to take that away from you, or to pass judgment in any way. But I think you have to understand that not everybody shares that viewpoint. If some people are not happy with it, and want the opportunity to live a conventional life, perhaps – but not necessarily – with a wife and family (or husband and family) in mind, then they should be free to seek help to achieve that goal. We are concerned that there is not much of this kind of help available in the UK, which is one of the reasons for running this conference, to facilitate more of the appropriate training. We were pleased that there were a good number of therapists at the conference – from all over Europe, not just the UK.

    It is all about freedom – freedom of choice. You should not be trying to prevent this. It seems that you (by ‘you’ I mean gay activists, not anyone in particular) demand tolerance of your own lifestyle, but are not prepared to extend this tolerance to anyone else.

    And do not for one moment be thinking that none of us have any knowledge or experience of same-sex attraction.

  19. JESUS NEVER CONDEMED Gay people! Its a pity we can’t have the original Christianity, not this right wing fascist, evangelical homophobia in the guise of relgion! If you look at him, Jesus was not exactly “mr Average” and was considered a “Leffty hippy” even in his own time!

  20. LOVE NEEDS NO CURE – I love it!!

  21. “It is all about freedom – freedom of choice. You should not be trying to prevent this. It seems that you (by ‘you’ I mean gay activists, not anyone in particular) demand tolerance of your own lifestyle, but are not prepared to extend this tolerance to anyone else.”
    On the contrary Jill, we should be trying to prevent this. It’s the thin end of an evangelical wedge. So we start by saying it’s acceptable to change ‘unwanted’ sexual attraction. The first question is who made it unwanted in the first place… I’m sure the black population of Alabama might have envied the white population in the 1930’s, but would that make it right to subject them to Michael Jackson style skin whitening just so the KKK wouldn’t lynch them?
    When Michael Jackson changed his skin tone, did that make it generally acceptable for all black people follow suit?
    The problem stems from intolerance on your side of the fence. Your scientific claims have been comprehensively debunked by widely respected psychological institutions and the sole justification for what you’re promoting comes from the equally morally patchy Old Testament. Why aren’t you out there attempting to wean people away from their poly-cotton socks? Leviticus disagrees with clothes of mixed fibres too.
    If you live a life as a threatened minority group, it’s natural to want to fit in but that doesn’t mean we should be pressured by snake oil salesmen into selling out.
    It seems gay people are the last minority group it’s acceptable to bash, but in 30 years time you’ll be embarrassed you sided with our oppressors.

  22. I am astonished that ‘Alexander’ claims to know what arguments the crowd – who were not acting aggressively at all, what is so aggressive about a message reading ‘Love Needs no Cure’? – since he claims to be inside the church itself.

    There was a lot of contempt, understandably, especially when a young Jewish man came along to tell his story about how he suffered for years trying to change his sexuality and to denounce the event.

    The Anglican Mainstgream’s round up of the conference by the way exposes the myth that Nicolosi’s is a ‘secular’ organisation. And neither is it just about helping ‘those who wish to change’. His speech is peppered with attacks on LGBT people, if the round up on AC’s website is correct:

    He made the following observations:

    ” …
    * Gay couples don’t last. A study of 165 of the best gay relationships, done by objective scientists, has found that maintaining monogamy does not last for more than five years. It will ruin the relationship. They accept going out on each other. Why? It is about the search for maleness. It is a narcissistic fantasy.

    Nicolosi outlined four ‘Gay Myths':
    * 10% of the population is homosexual. The figure is 1.5%- 2%.
    * You’re born gay. Not true. No one is born gay.
    * Once gay, always gay. A lie. People can change. “My therapy practice with seven male therapists and a woman therapist is living evidence that people can change.
    * Homosexuality is normal in every way. Believing 1+2+3+4 = Total acceptance.

    * Informed disapproval does not mean “homophobia”. Homophobia is an irrational fear of homosexuals. If you have a fear, then you need help. Most people do not fear homosexuals.

    * Gay vs. Homosexual. There is no such thing as a homosexual. Homosexuality is a gender identity disorder. Tolerance is not the same thing as approval. We should not approve of a behavior God does not approve.”

    I don’t care whether people are born gay or not. It’s about people’s right to be allowed to get on with their lives without harrassment and intimidation, which essentially, NARTH gives justification for.

    I was on Gaydar Radio’s breakfast show to talk about this – and emphasised that it is not enough for the Church to ‘distance itself’ – I want to see it condemn this, unequivocally.

  23. Thank you Jill!!!

  24. Jill, let’s put the shoe on the other foot: I’d just like to know what your thoughts would be if people created a freedom of choice help group for heterosexuals who had unwanted OSA (opposite sex attraction) and wanted to become gay? would you gladly refer them to this help group? would this be acceptable to society?

  25. There is no need to tolerate stupidity and bigotry especially when it is twisted religious morals, obsessions and desire for social control masquerading as science and help. The likes of Nicolosi and Jill need to believe that they are doing something good. But they are casuing harm, they do everything in their power to make gay or bisexual people feel bad about their same sex attraction, creating a problem and then promising to cure people of it. They lead vulnerable people down the path of years of further anguish and feelings of inadequacy. They waste lives. they don’t deserve tolerance, they do not tolerate gay and lesbian lives or lifestyles they work politically and personally against them. They refuse to acknowledge the harm they cause. They believe only what they want to. Fuck their freedom of choice. Our Freedom of choice should always be to follow our desires to find love with our own sex away from the hatred and denigration of bigots and misguided religionists.

  26. Oh you big silly, Jill. I’d expect greater intellectual rigour from you if you were going to advance arguments of freedom and tolerance.

    The fundamental plank of your philosophy is that homosexuality is not something that should be tolerated because it is errant. Having created an idea that homosexuality is wrong, you then do your best to spread that ideology to the gullible and vulnerable. And then those gullible and vulnerable are scared by their own feelings or coerced by the cultural antipathy of family/friends to homosexuality that you have encouraged. Those gullible and vulnerable people then have to come back to you for a solution to this ‘wrongness’. But your solution simply doesn’t work – as countless respectable studies have shown.

    You’ve created a circular argument based almost entirely on intolerance and suggestions for curtailing freedom of sexual expression. Your argument is just daft. It’s like going to McDonalds for advice on a good diet.

    And as for your idea that a hundred peaceful protestors are stopping freedom of thought, well, I think we both know what Freud said about hysterics, don’t we? Have some good sex girl – and stop being silly.

  27. Pumpkin Pie 27 Apr 2009, 12:05pm

    Guys, guys, guys. The Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence turned up to support the LGBT protestors. That means the protestors won. Automatically.

  28. Simon Murphy 27 Apr 2009, 12:39pm

    Alexander – do you accept the bible as the word of ‘god’?

    If so then do you accept that the bible sanctions rape; murder; slavery and genocide (the bible permits a man to rape his wife; murder her for adultery; allows him to own slaves and ‘god’ performed genocide on the 1st born Egyptian children for the crime of being Egyptian)

    The ‘god’ of the christian; jewish and muslim churches is a murderous, evil, genocidal bastard. No wonder these religions/cults are defined by hatred and bigotry.

  29. Alexander, Jill, I attended the protest and talked to a number of the delegates and I believe, one of the speakers who was a Rabbi I understand. My partner, a psychotherapist, talked to one of therapists from inside and to 3 of the delegates who were kind enough to come and share their perspectives. I can assure you that the “intellectualism” shown was poor. The delegates reflected nothing but the religious perspective and essentially re-gurgitated the out-moded and baseless object relations developmental theory that Nicolosi etc propound. The speaker had nothing to offer except that everyone should be free to puruse change if they so wished. Well, I’m sorry, this is not a conference of scientific inquiry. Why do nominally secular therapist present at religious conferences? Because what they offer is devoid of science and one may as well have change therapies based on the Flying Spahetti Monster. There is NO intellectual justification for such activity just as the Scientologists Dianetics are not considered ‘science’. A man with same-sex attraction who uses cognitive behavioural techniques to adopt a self-belief that marrying a woman is moral, ethical is not only deluded but tantamount to coercive sex. The collusion of therapists in such a process is reprehensible, unethical, unprofessional and unscruplous.

  30. “Informed disapproval does not mean “homophobia”. HAhahahahahahahaha! Dumb a**.

  31. @ Alexander, Jill and other Christian es-gay enthusiasts

    Only a few short years ago, Orthodox, Evangelical Christians would not, for love nor money, have been willing to form such an unholy alliance as they have lately with the Freudian Roman Catholic Nicolosi and the Kabbalistic Orthodox Jew Satinover, amongst others.

    This alliance is a very public confession that Christ alone is not sufficient for the care of souls and to save souls from sin.

    It is a flagrant denial of “the faith once delivered to the saints” – the gospel proclaimed by the Apostle Paul (Romans 1-8 and all of Galatians)

    Do you need to be reminded that Freudian psychology is incompatible and irreconcilable with Biblical psychology, anthropology, hamartiology and soteriology, or that Freud saw himself in a Messianic role and actually identified himself with the Devil? (see David Bakan’s book “Sigmund Freud & the Jewish Mystical Tradition”)

    Do you need to be told that the world-view of the Kabbalist is completely incompatible with that of the Evangelical Christian – denying the power of Christ to save?

    For a Christian overview of Kabbalah google:

    “crossroads quotes occult kabbalah”

    I’m sure you know all those Bible verses from Paul et al on false teachings, apostasy and becoming seduced “back to the Law”…

    This adventure into apostasy calls for repentance on the part of Christians – not self-righteous gloating!

  32. @ Alexander, Jill Christians!

    This adventure into apostasy with a Freudian Roman Catholic and a Kabbalistic Orthodox Jew is a very public admission that Christ alone is not sufficient to save from sin.

    This unholy alliance with occultism calls for public repentance on the part of the organizers especially – not self-righteous gloating!

    See carm dot org for the Orthodox Christian explanation of why Kabbalah and Roman Catholicism are completely incompatible woth Orthdox Evangelicalism.

    And psychoheresy-aware dot org for information on Freudianism (Nicolosi gets a special mention on the page about Dobson & Freud)

  33. JB – I was thinking the same thing myself. How come ‘unwanted sexual attraction’ is generally taken to mean ‘gay’? Would NARTH be willing to put the reverse therapy into practice if someone was feeling unfulfilled in a straight relationship?

  34. Simon Murphy 27 Apr 2009, 2:18pm

    I think these christian and religious people have a problem with sex – whether it’s gay or straight. For some bizarre reason religion has an unhealthy obsession with sex. Religious people generally would have the same sex drive as anyone but their superstitious beliefs tell them that sexual desire is sinful and dirty. They can forgive heterosexual intercourse as they can pretend that they’re only engaging in it for reproductive purposes. But the idea of sex for pleasure truly horrifies people like Alexander.

  35. @ Adrian T – Well said! I heard you speaking on Gaydar Radio’s breakfast show this morning and thought you put your points across eloquently.

    Also, as a general point, the ex-gay movement trying to portray their motive as the selfless helping of others is a load of rubbish. Their motive instead is powered by their ridiculous personal biblical views. If the motive was indeed genuinely to help others, then they would take into account the proper consideration of the terrible psychological damage their actions can (and do) have on gay people trying to be straight, who subsequently have their mental health damaged by such actions, not to mention the fact that if they choose to marry a member of the opposite sex, then this hurts the spouse as well.

  36. Keith SIMPSON 27 Apr 2009, 4:06pm

    #18
    FROM JILL.

    Exactly Jill!

    I could not agree more with you in everything you say.
    If someone who is, to a greater or lesser degree, straight, and is more or less happy to live and be seen to be living a ‘conventional’ lifetstyle with a partner of the opposite sex and the supposed 2.4 children then lovely.
    And if that Mr/Mrs Average, somewhere in themselves experiences some same sex attraction to whatever degree and feels the need to seek help to overcome it, then go for it.
    I don’t quite understand why you feel that you need to overcome it, unless it is threatening to ruin your ‘straight’ relationship, and you don’t want that…but however.
    I have no problem with that.
    I have many straight friends who look at me and think, “Well I am not gay because I am not like that ‘Keith TinkyWinky’…and yet inside they know that they are attracted, to some degree, SSA-wise.
    It is all a question of degree of attraction.
    I MUST ADMIT THAT I WAS NOT THINKING OF BI-SEXUAL PEOPLE; PEOPLE WHO ARE GENUINELY TORN BETWEEN THE NORTH AND THE SOUTH POLE AND GOING TO THIS CONFERENCE IN ORDER TO SEEK HELP.
    I am coming from it from a 100% homosexual viewpoint and I suppose it is my fault in the long run for including myself as ‘gay’.
    I am not ‘gay'; I am homosexual 100%; no choice; not one iota of interest in women at allllll…
    I thought the conference was aimed at the likes of me who are unchangeable, as unchangeable as I am ‘un-swingable’.
    This is where…and I shall get some stick over this, I know, but I do not care…
    This is where I maintain that it was better when it was illegal; the law should have been left alone; too many have jumped on the bandwagon since the 60s…and it’s all ‘gay’…it’s all ok to be ‘gay’.
    It is not any such thing.
    For too many it is seen as a ‘choice’ to quote you Jill.
    It is not a choice at all.
    HOMOSEXUALITY IS NOT A BLEEDING CHOICE!
    I WISH TO GOD IT WERE!
    BEING ‘GAY’ MIGHT VERY WELL BE!
    BEING HOMOSEXUAL a la QUENTIN CRISP, a la JULIAN CLARY, a la KENNY WILLIAMS, a la KEITH FROM SALFORD IS NOT A PIGGIN’ CHOICE.
    Let me put it to you this way; if the legislation on homosexuality were repealed tomorrow and it were to be re-criminalised, I wonder how many ‘civil partnerships’ and all the other rigmarole would evaporate overnight.
    I wonder how many erstwhile fay little voices would drop an octave and affected mincing little walks would suddenly assume a manly gravitas and I wonder how many (men) would run for cover behind their ex’s…”Who’s gay?…wot you on abaht…? I’ve got a wife and 3 kids…how can I possibly be a fruit…?”…leaving me and the likes of me, the Qentins, Justins and Kennys to pick up the pieces and ‘Carry On’ (no funny intended!)…no choice…quite unable to run behind any woman’s skirts and ‘straighten’ myself up.
    You knew where you were in the 50’s and 60s; it was much more fun, too; the straights were straight (or so they said, but we knew to the contrary!) and the ‘agents provocateurs’ the yummy young cops, were simply gorgeous…all the more so because it was ILLEGAL.
    Now any old tramp can go to the ball!
    They do, too, and they have RUINED it..!
    Anyway, that is not what I complain about; there’s room for everyone especially since I am getting ready to ‘shuffle off the mortal’ whatever; you can ‘ave my place and welcome to it..!

    What I am on about is much more serious; it is the Catholic Church and Ratzinger in particular (and other ‘religious’ bodies taking a leaf out of his book) and ALL telling me that “homosexuality is objectively disordered and leads to behaviour which is intrinsically evil and therefore must be considered objectively disordered.”
    It is that which I find jaw-dropping and have for 50 years.
    It is that which I thought the conference was aimed at; the curing of people who thought that a cure could be had for being ‘objectively disordered’…
    It is not a disease or an illness; it is therefore not appropriate to talk of a cure.
    Keith.
    Salford.

  37. Alexander, Jill and other Exgays

    Now that you are becoming proficient at eliminating “unwanted homosexual feelings”

    When will you eliminate you first homosexual person, because they remind you of the homosexual feelings you find excruciating and unable to tolerate in your self; but have in a rather perverse way manage to kill off

    We can see that you are SICK EVIL DESTRUCTIVE people

    I under stand you cannot

    This is because you are EXTREMISTS,

    I have good news for you!

    It is called new Government Equality and incitement to hatred laws

    It’s simple . . . prison for you . . .

    You see this is where Sick Evil Destructive people belong

  38. Christina Alley:
    Love your approach and the clarity with which you write, although to be fair and having voraciously studied the history of English, French and American Literature for ten (10) years at University level (straight A’s, but who’s bragging?) with a prof who had studied at Oxford, I know without a shadow of a doubt that gays are the best writers the world has ever known.

    Flapjack:
    Since you have proven to me time and time again that conflict brings out the best in you, would you help me, a cradle catholic who was taught very early in life by dedicated and highly intelligent nuns to follow my conscience and not to listen or answer the ‘devil’, and tell JILL and ALEXANDER that I am as interested in the agenda of their conference as Benedict XVI is interested in promoting the use of condoms to prevent the spread of AIDS in Africa and elsewhere.

    Keith:
    As long as you persist in reminding us and everybody else that only homosexuals can understand homosexuality, you will always be on the right track, my friend.
    As for the homophobic bigots, they would not know how to empty water from a boot if the instructions were written on the heel. You are not getting senile; you are an elder in our virtual gay community, and I personally hang on your every word.
    Loved your story about your Russian roots.

    AdrianT:
    You will never succeed in convincing me that you are full of sh*t by writing like this, buddy.(22)
    Oh, and could you ask ALEXANDER, using your impeccable expressions (not flattery!), to figure out how a turtle can turn itself upside down on top of a fence post rather than him wasting his time writing to PinkNews?
    Why didn’t you tell me you were a DJ on the BBC? I thought you worked in a gay club or something. We don’t get much of BBC in this neck of the woods.

    Finally, I am humbled by the intelligence of the comments on this thread which to me represent a living proof that Walt Whitman was not whitewashing when he wrote in the 1880’s (‘Leaves of Grass’) of the eventuality of a universal gay brother(sister)hood.

    GROUP HUG ! ! !

  39. Nicolosi claimed that “Gay couples don’t last”

    Total rubbish! Straight couples doesn’t last either. I don’t know how many straight people read this thread but are they still with their first boyfriend/girlfriend when they were younger? Of course not. Most will have had a few relationships, one night stands etc before getting married (that is, assuming their marriage doesn’t eventually end in a divorce)

    Stop blaming gay people for the ills of the society.

    Goodness know, next thing we’ll get blamed by religious organisations for the global spread of Swine Flu because of gay rights!!

  40. Thanks Jean Paul – You’ve got a way with words yourself y’know! Speaking as a lapsed Church of Englander who seems to attract evangelical nutters like a magnet, you have my sympathy on the lapsed Catholic thing.
    I’ve read my fair share of psychology books and if there’s one thing I learned from them, chanting “we are not worthy so much as to gather up the crumbs under thy table oh merciful Lord” by rote once a week cripples your self-esteem. Whod’ve thought eh?

  41. What happened?

  42. Flapjack:
    Thanks for your feedback and your sympathy.
    On the off-chance that you or anyone on this thread is remotely interested in what is presently doing the rounds at the Vatican, check out John L. Allan Jr.’s essay entitled ‘The Pope is 82 (today). Who’s next in line?’ at http:slash slash ncronline dot org slash node slash 12892.
    In particular, since you live in the land of Oscar Wilde, check out Archbishop Gianfranco Ravasi’s profile and then tell me that Brian Burton is not absolutely right when he tells us, in his own way, that ‘we gotta have hope’.
    worthy…crumbs..merciful!!! Oh my gawd, I had never heard that tune. How could the anti-intellectual current of the early 20th century have been tolerated, and financed to boot, by anyone with an ounce (gram) of common sense?

  43. Everyone, please note that “Jill” has not replied to my posting on the previous thread concerning this issue. On that thread I wrote that “Jill” seems of very similar mind to the “Corinna” who posted a message saying “This conference is not homophobia. It’s an attempt to help people who for whatever reason are struggling with guilt and pain because of feelings that they don’t want.”

    This is what “Jill” continues to say, so I will now paste in, yet again, my reply to “Corrina” and let us see if Jill can engage with it – with any degree of rigorous intellectual discipline.

    —————————————————

    Corrina, I am sure you try as best you can to be a good Christian. But stop and take a look at what you’ve written!

    You wrote: “It’s an attempt to help people who for whatever reason are struggling with guilt and pain because of feelings that they don’t want.”

    The above does not make ANY rational sense.

    Let me unpack it for you (as any teacher or professor in logic would, in any philosophy department anywhere in the world).

    1. Gay people have “feelings that they don’t want”.
    2. They have these feelings “for whatever reason”.
    3. These feelings cause “struggling with guilt and pain”.
    4. “Reparative Therapy” helps.

    This is what you stated, Corrina.

    However, when your statement is dissected and it is put into the above sequential order, it becomes clear there is a lot of information being left out.

    Your point “No. 2″ is VERY VERY IMPORTANT, Corrina: you cannot just swish by and get away with not going into “for whatever reason”. That is intellectually unacceptable. We cannot afford to be intellectually lazy.

    So what ARE the reasons which your statement has not acknowledged in your Point No.2?

    Corrina, the reason why some gay people have “feelings that they don’t want”, is because the attitude of unloving, unsupportive, parents and peers and certain other sections of society makes them very fearful indeed of carrying their identity with dignity. Homophobic bullies in many guises make some gay and lesbian people deeply frightened of accepting their sexual orientation. In particular, all the different voo-doo hocus-pocus made-up nonsense of the world’s many different religions are greatly responsible for making gay and lesbian people fearful of accepting their sexual orientation. And let us remember that some young gay and lesbian people are so frightened of carrying their intrinsic sexual identity with pride that they attempt suicide or succeed in committing suicide. And we must also remember that even the most well-adjusted gay or lesbian person still has to be careful in today’s world in certain places or at certain times, because of homophobia. You must have read about the regular knifings, stabbings, and beatings which gay and lesbian people are subjected to.

    Consideration of your “Point No. 2″ obviously now explains the reality of your “Point No. 3″, namely that ‘These feelings cause “struggling with guilt and pain”.’ As we have seen by carefully examining your “Point No. 2″ it is NOT the homosexual “feelings” which cause the “struggling with guilt and pain”. No, it is the information missing in “Point No. 2″ which causes the guilt and pain, namely the homophobia, the bullying, the finger-pointing, and the stigma that is generally part-and-parcel of any of the world’s many different religions.

    So now, Corrina, that we have acknowledged the reasons why some gay people have “feelings that they don’t want”, you should be able to see that the 4th part of your proposition, namely that ‘”Reparative Therapy” helps’ is a non-sequitur. To any honest thinking person it is unacceptable. (A non-sequitur is an inference or a conclusion which just does not follow from the premisses, i.e. the previous parts of the over-all statement.)

    To make this all clear, let me give you an analogy.

    What you said is like saying:

    1. Some clever maths students have feelings they don’t want.
    2. These students have these feelings “for whatever reason”.
    3. These feelings cause “struggling with guilt and pain”.
    4. Willing themselves to not like Maths & Science helps.

    And then along come some people who run a business organization that has really got it in for Maths and those highly gifted students who are so good at Maths and they set up a Conference to help these “nerdy geeks” to will themselves NOT to be so gifted at the subject. Corinna heard about this conference and blithly said: “It’s an attempt to help people who for whatever reason are struggling with guilt and pain because of feelings that they don’t want.” For her it’s as simple as that. But as we have seen, she hasn’t examined things closely at all.

    But now that Corrina has looked at things closely with regard to the plight of gay and lesbian people, she realises that she and NARTH and many religious groups need to reformulate their attitude, as follows:

    1. Some gay people are unhappy being who they are.
    2. They are unhappy because of frightening homophobia which has come at them from a number of different sources.
    3. The homophobia makes them feel guilt and pain.
    4. They need caring professional support until such time as they develop strategies to deal with all sources of homophobia and they can stand up and say, “I am what I am, and what I am needs no excuses”.

    Corinna, there are many groups, including Christian groups, who do this valuable work of reaching out and finding those vulnerable young gay and lesbian people who need some assistance in learning to combat the awful, often unthinking, homophobia that continues unabated in our society today. Why don’t you join one and see what they’re like?

    —————————————————-

  44. Now i dont pretend to know the ‘ins and outs’ of the conference but people .. such as Jill.. are really confusing me.. not on an intellectual level but more on a logical one… why do you people who praise the conference sooooo much write continuously on a GAY news site …???

  45. Sean
    These exgays are here on this site because they know that their views will be seen be vulnerable people . . . they are here on a recrutiment drive

    Jean-Paul
    Thanks for your marks the other evening.

    Exgays
    Tell us what they were saying about homosexuality at your Nazi rally I mean Gay cure confernece

  46. Now that the Protest on Saturday is out of the way, things are actually beginning to hot up and the truth of Nicolosi and his organization is coming to light. I would like to say Thank You to the person who posted the link to the American Anglican site virtueonline.com

    I found the following page there:
    virtueonline.org/portal/modules/news/article.php?storyid=10318

    Go read it, everyone. Read every last word of it. IT IS SICKENING.

    First of all, the reporter (somebody called David W. Virtue) LIES and tries to create an impression of the people attending the conference being under some kind of violent uncontrolled attack from us on Saturday! Complete lies. He kicks off by saying, “I am huddled inside the doorway of Emmanuel Center, a church near Westminster Abbey, as hundreds of gay protesters yell and shout obscenities at a conference where speakers are offering healing for the homosexual through reparative therapy.” Clearly, these sad pathetic Anglican ex-gay supporters are so indoctrinated and brainwashed that in a kind of neurotic way they NEED to revel in seeing themselves as Christian martyrs suffering the taunts of a pagan multitude.

    Next, let me pick out key phrases from the rest of the report of the Conference at Westminster:

    ——————————–

    “Nicolosi argues that, at its root, homosexuality is not a sexual problem – it is a gender-identity problem.”

    NOTE: Nicolosi and his followers believe that HOMOSEXUALITY IS A PROBLEM. If they believe it is a problem, then they believe that that problem should be solved, and the only way you can get rid of the problem of homosexuality is by eliminating homosexuality itself. SO WE CAN’T ACCEPT THIS HOGWASH THEY SPOUT: “We aren’t homophobic, we just want to give certain homosexuals a choice”. IF WE IGNORE NICOLOSI AND HIS FOOT-SOLDIERS AT NARTH AND ELSEWHERE, WE DO SO AT OUR PERIL.

    ————————————

    Next quote from the article:

    “Nicolosi claims that there is no such thing as a homosexual, but only heterosexuals that have a homosexual problem.”

    UNDERSTAND THIS EVERYONE. IT MEANS WE GAYS AND LESBIANS DON’T EXIST!!!!!! NICOLOSI IS UNAMBIGUOUSLY CLAIMING WE ARE HETEROSEXUALS WITH A PROBLEM.

    No way, Nicolosi. You will NOT negate who and what we are!
    But let’s be absolutely sure, everyone: Nicolosi negates our existence. And through his organization he also convinces others that we do not exist.

    ———————————–

    Next quote:

    “The California therapist ripped gay organizations for their dishonesty in promoting a lifestyle that is ultimately pathological, narcissistic, self-absorbed”.

    Nicolosi believes that our lives are ultimately pathological, narcissitic, and self-absorbed. WHAT IS THIS STATEMENT IF IT IS NOT ABSOLUTE HATRED OF HOMOSEXUAL MEN AND WOMEN? Clearly, Nicolosi is spreading the idea that we are all psychologically sick.

    I’m not sick, Nicolosi. But by hell YOU ARE. YOU ARE A MONSTER. YOU PUT ME IN MIND OF Joseph Mengele, the Nazi who experimented on prisoners in Auschwitz to research his beliefs on heredity. (Amongst many other things, Mengele attempted to change eye-colour by injecting chemicals into prisoner’s eyes!)

    —————————————–

    Next quote:

    “One third of boys who think they are homosexual were abused by older boys, a relative or family member. It is same sex abuse. It is no surprise that gay activists are lobbying for the lowering of the age of consent.”

    Nicolosi is clearly stating here that he believes that gay activists lobbying for an equal age of consent are doing so for the purpose of PAEDOPHILIA!

    In other words, Nicolosi clearly believes that all gay activists are paedophiles! He believes we want an equal age of consent so that we can groom and force ourselves on young heterosexuals and turn them into gays and lesbians. THIS IS ONE HELL OF A STINKING ACCUSATION. WHY HAVEN’T GAY ACTIVISTS IN AMERICA TAKEN TO THE STREETS AND SHOWN THEIR ANGER AND HAD THIS MAN ARRESTED OR PUT AWAY? What he is saying is ABSOLUTELY LIBELOUS. People are prosecuted for libel when they use statements which are harmful,untrue, and tending to discredit or malign, and Nicolosi’s statement above does not just TEND to discredit or malign we gay and lesbian people, it ABSOLUTELY DISCREDITS AND MALIGNS US.

    This man and his followers have got to be stopped. Remember, Joseph Mengele thought he was a good man. Criminals believe they are good men.

    ————————————————

    Next comment:

    “Gay couples don’t last.”

    COMPLETE AND UTTER BULLSHIT! I have been with my partner for 18 years and will remain with him for the rest of my life. I have three very close friends who also have been part of a same-sex couple for OVER 20 YEARS! THERE ARE THOUSANDS OF US WHO ARE COUPLES WHO HAVE LASTED AND WILL CONTINUE TO LAST.

    Nicolosi has maligned us again – with the implication that every heterosexual couple that is formed LASTS FOREVER! BULLSHIT, NICOLOSI.

    This man is a dangerous manipulator of words. He lies.

    ———————————————

    Next quote from Nicolosi:

    “Informed disapproval does not mean “homophobia”. Homophobia is an irrational fear of homosexuals. . . . Most people do not fear homosexuals.”

    Here Nicolosi is trying to sell the impression that he is not homophobic!!!!!!!!! And so many people are so shallow in their thinking that they accept this!!!! BUT JUST LOOK AT WHAT HE HAS SAID IN THE QUOTES ABOVE! If that’s not outright HATRED OF HOMOSEXUALS AND HOMOSEXUALITY then homophobia does not exist on the face of Planet Earth!

    Nicolosi is teaching his gullible followers to go round saying that they simply have “informed disapproval” of us! INFORMED DISAPPROVAL??????? The above statements constitute ONLY INFORMED DISAPPROVAL?????

    From the above we have clear evidence that Nicolosi is running an organization which is convincing many many people that
    – HOMOSEXUALITY IS A PROBLEM.
    – HOMOSEXUALS DO NOT ACTUALLY EXIST.
    – HOMOSEXUALS ARE PATHOLOGICALLY ILL.
    – HOMOSEXUAL ACTIVISTS ARE PAEDOPHILES.
    – HOMOSEXUAL COUPLES DO NOT LAST.
    and he claims that he is not a homophobe, that the above statements are said purely with a detached sense of “informed disapproval”?

    Make no mistake, people, Joseph Nicolosi and his followers are PASSIONATELY AND PERSISTENTLY propounding the above beliefs. There is no rational distanced “informed disapproval”. They are clearly filled with Joseph Nicolosi’s HATRED towards homosexuals. They are dangerous homophobes. They are not passive homophobes. They are actively seeking to eliminate homosexuality from the world.

    We are a problem.

    ——————————————-

    You know, when you let the meaning of Nicolosi’s words sink in, you have to ask yourself why the hell no one has brought this homophobe to a standstill yet? I can only think that the average American just doesn’t analyse things closely enough. If they did, surely they would all have been so hopping mad about this bloke for years that something would have been done to disband his organization by now.

    Joseph Nicolosi, by daring to enter Britain with your hatred of homosexuals, you have gone one step too far. WE BRITS THINK! You can’t get away with your crafty use of words here, matey! You’re using the language we invented. You’re heading for your downfall! I for one am not going to let up on you and I know there are others who will join me!

    If any American gay activists are reading this then for heaven’s sake get yourselves high-powered attorney and take out an action against this guy! Remove him!

  47. Eddy897

    Hitler used very similar rhetoric against the Jews.

    I am glad you are pointing out this to invidous, insidous violence of Nicolosi’s towards homosexuals.

    Thanks for the detialed outline of his hate filled manifesto.

    What a brillant attempt of Nicolosi’s to replace the gas chambers with the therapists consulting room . . . !!!

  48. cripes! the stuff on that page at virtueonline (dot) org is so truly awful. The whole article looks a report of what actually was said in Marsham Street last week?

  49. I know . . . “Disturbing” . . . would be an understatement.

    . . . and he was allowed to spurt this incitment to hate in London.

  50. PhilP (43):
    We don’t drink alcohol(both our fathers were abusive chronic alcoholics), but my partner (who was a bank manager for 25 years) of 19 years and I would be happy to share a ginger ale with you anytime!

    Eddy897:
    Is that you EDDY? Whoever you are, you’ve got me in tears of ecstacy. We Frenchies are so sensitive to equality, liberty and fraternity, what can I say??? Ah loves ya.

  51. Eddy 897 – Thanks for the inside track.
    Funny how history repeats itself. The NARTH manifesto makes the Daily Mail look like a pinky liberal love-in. Why didn’t they simply go the whole hog and invite the BNP to split the conference hall rental fees?

  52. For anyone thinking of entering or leaving these ex-gay ministries (or just curious), HRC have compiled and published a very helpful free e-book here:

    Finally Free: How Love and Acceptance Saved Us From the Ex-Gay Ministries

    http://www.hrc.org/issues/religion/7107.htm

    This compilation of personal statements exposes the harm caused by “ex-gay” ministries. The publication includes a resource list of organizations throughout the US that support people who are LGBT.

    I love the final quote:

    “I entered the ‘ex-gay’ ministries because I believed I was going to hell. I left when I realized that hell was life in the ‘ex-gay’ ministries!”

  53. Hi, Jean-Paul. Yes, it’s me (Eddy). Thanks for the kind words.

    JohnK, when I think about how people like Jill are peddling this “we are only doing it because we are full of Christian love and care” message, and I think of how strong their security arrangements were, and then of what was clearly said inside that hall on Friday and Saturday, I feel certain we have to take action. I think I will rework that post above and write to various authorities and MPs.

    FlapJack, funny you should mention The Daily Mail and the BNP, because they came into MY head too while considering what went on in that hall last week. NARTH is to us what the BNP is to blacks and Asians. This is another thing to include in letters to MPs.

  54. Simon Murphy 28 Apr 2009, 10:21am

    Religious people are obsessed with gay sex.

    Their own sex lives resemble dried-up withered old prunes (think of Nocolosi’s hair) so to try to ease the empty, bitter, unfulfiled, frustrated lives they live as christians they like to hang out at gay sites. Secretly they long for communion (of the sexual rather than the religious kind). Until they can achieve that we’d best leave them to their crucifix’s and whatever bizarre games they play with them.

  55. Eddy897:
    So good to hear from you.
    Writing to the authorities and MP’s is exactly how Canadian GLBT persons advanced and won our cause. Of course we were inspired by Pierre Eliot Trudeau who was probably the first Canadian to read the Wolfenden Report hot off the press and to state: ‘The government has no business in the bedrooms of the Nation.’
    Then, an ad hoc committee was formed to raise funds and gather brilliant gay minds, especially lawyers and priests (and ex-priests who are a tad more fiesty and free to speak their minds). This ad hoc committe was also sponsored by a national gay organization (EGALE).
    Check out the Canadian Gay and Lesbian Archives and try to get in touch with a documentary producer/director named David Adkin (he knows me) who lives in Toronto.
    David can give you or put you in touch with persons who will willingly give you hands-on knowledge of how to carry out a campaign like this according to the British legal system that we Canadians cherish so much (although my cousins in Quebec have told me on numerous occasions to go to hell – they follow the Napoleonic legal system and it does have its advantages because no other province in this Nation has such a healthy and well-developed cultural identity).
    Looing forward to reading your posts.

  56. Jean-Paul, nice to hear from you. So you are in Canada? Have noted down your advice re David Adkin and will look into it.

    Just now looking through all the new stories that have thrown the Nicolosi report off the front page of Pink News it seems as if globally we have made no progress at all! Barundi makes homosexuality illegal, modern Australia decides against Civil Unions, and so forth. All very depressing. That international Gay Rights movements need to kick back to action. We have far from won our cause yet.

  57. Eddy897:
    Canada, yes. I thought everybody knew that! We live in northern New Brunswick, a small city called Bathurst. We have a little house with a panoramic view of the sunset over Bathurst Harbour, and we love our neighborhood and our pet Maltese, Hugo.

    One of our neighbors is British and flies a Union Jack whereas I fly a Canadian flag, except on New Brunswick Day when I fly the N.B. flag, and on August 15th, when I fly the Acadian flag (Aug. 15 = Acadian Day like March 17 = St. Patrick Day). My ancestor, a royal gunsmith from Lyon, arrived in the New World, at Port-Royal, in 1642. His name was Abraham, go figure, he was only 19 blah, blah, blah, ad nauseum. My family name is Dugas (‘Doogah’, with the accent either way; I prefer the accent on the last syllable).

    Let me know if you have the least difficulty getting in touch with David Adkin. I have his e-mail address somewhere and I’ll go through a stack of papers and cards (my filling system) and I WILL find it. I can even introduce you to him in cyberspace.

    David is quite a character, in his 40’s. He has been known as Mr. Leather Toronto for years, and he is always involved in one fund-raiser or another.

    By the way, the ad hoc committee I spoke of also enrolled psychologists, therapists, etc., but something tells me you are clever enough to figure that out.

    Yea, I know what you mean about the international scene. I wonder if there is simply a lack of money and/or volunteers to do the footwork. We gotta have hope, miles and miles and miles of hope.
    Even the UN has problems implementing their declarations. Apathy everwhere. Décourageant.

    Rather than sign off on a negative note, I love your mastery of logic. I used to barf when studying logic, and I once threw my textbook against the wall and walked out of the room (I hated the teacher, a Trappist monk with the mentality of a turnip). I can see why the ‘faithful’ would flock all over you. I thought it was because you must have been a handsome devil!

  58. Pumpkin Pie 29 Apr 2009, 1:13am

    “Informed disapproval” reminds me of the way that white supremacists prefer to be called “racialist” instead of racist. Sounds like semantics for some antics, methinks.

    And Nicolosi is backwards even by conversion therapy standards. Conversion therapists admitted long ago that the best they could realistically hope for is to condition gays to not have “homosexual urges”.

  59. Pumpkin Pie:
    You have been doing your homework. That ‘Nicolosi is backwards even by conversion therapy standards’ is an important piece of the puzzle.
    But you gotta admit, we sure gave Alexander and Jill a good run for their money. Ha, I loved every minute of it, as I’m damned sure you did!

  60. Jean-Paul, JohnK, George, AdrianT, Pumpkin Pie, Simon Murphy: I really like you guys!

    I posted my analysis of the report of Nicolosi’s spoutings in Marsham Street on the relevant thread at the exgay.com website and it has had an effect on the discussion there. Prior to my posting about a dozen or more people had commented on the exgay.com report of the London conference and you can see that their comments were all rather restrained and gentlemanly. It seemed to me that there was a restraining and controlling influence at work amongst the posters. Anyway, following the posting of my analysis, there has been a slight rise in temperature – slight, mind you. If has occurred to me that it serves adherents of the Nicolosi camp to infiltrate protest groups and seek to muffle dissent. In fact a regular on the ex-gay.com website has suggested this himself in the past 24 hours, using the word “neutralize”. Anger is good and anger is powerful and anger must be used when the destructive and maligning behaviour of people like Nicolosi is at large. There are people about who, for a range of reasons, are seeking to neutralize our rightful anger against Nicolosi.

    If any of you decided to contribute to the exgay.com discussions, be careful all the same. They are moderated and there is an implication on the Nicolosi thread there today that my posting has been left there only after some consideration. It seems that the moderator believes there is currently a need for a slightly more spirited approach to the problem of this man and his operation.

  61. Eddy:
    I have never visited exgay.com and I doubt very much that I ever will. Frankly, I had never heard of them till this thread.
    You make it sound as if exgay.com admits there is a problem with this guy Nicolosi. Is that a good thing?
    I agree with what you say about anger, and I always like to read comments by guys and gals who are furious, either at one another or at one issue or another.
    Of course, Plato did say that emotions fog up our power to reason, and Aquinas seems to have agreed with him. But, I made up my mind a long time ago that the traditional definition of man as a reasoning animal falls short of the reality.
    We can approach reality in a number of ways, not only with our power to reason. It’s just that reason flatters the intelligence of the listener, and I don’t know too many people who usually ignore flattery, including myself unfortunately.
    I’m just babbling, Eddy, but what I’m really trying to say is how much I appreciate the first sentence of your last post. Besides bitching at one another, it does feel good to bolster one another from time to time. Gros merci.

  62. Salut JP and Eddy – I think you both mean exgaywatch.com ? Don’t forget, it’s run by people who are mainly religious – fair enough if they censor comments, it’s their site after all. (and Reason is the only way we know to win an argument JP…)

    (PS exgay.com – is actually interesting: an honest account from an ex-gay survivor warning people not to go in for reparative therapy, and an appeal to gay people to accept themselves. do stop and visit the site, it’s not what you think)

  63. AdrianT:
    You rascal, my entire family and all my friends have always called me JP! How did you know that?!

    Thanks for the reality check about reason winning an argument.
    It may sound like a feeble way to wipe the egg off my face, but maybe I was thinking about approaching an objective reality with our intuition, our feelings and emotions, but not really to win an argument, just to have some kind of perception of it.

    Of course, I believe it was Kant who said that a thing in itself is unknowable, but I won’t bore either one of us with philosophic pedantry at 1:14 a.m., Bathurst time.

    Now, am I to understand that there exists an organized group of religious exgays (exgaywatch.com) who infiltrate gay web sites and try to recruit or to convert or whatever you want to call it?

    I know that in the RCC there exists a group called ‘Courage’ who atempt to persuade catholic gays to accept themselves as they are but to abstain from sexual relationships, but the last time I checked nobody goes to their meetings, and those who have gone usually roll their eyes to express how ridiculous their experience had been.

    So maybe I will visit exgay.com

    Salut!

  64. Father Ron Smith 30 Apr 2009, 5:54am

    One wonders whether ANYONE is making any money out of this conference? Certainly would-be therapists like the main speaker should not charge for something that is at least a questionable therapy – from a psychological, if not spiritual, point of view.

    Thinking of my Roman Catholic friends, I wonder what Cardinal John Henry would have thought of such a bid to ‘exorcise’ legitimate homosexual feelings?

    Mainstreamers have a lot to be accountable for, in my opinion.

  65. Father Ron Smith:

    I have to admit the money aspect had never crossed my mind, but you’re right – speakers are usually professionals of one kind or another and they do supplement their income by giving conferences, just like gifted priests are sought after to give retreats to their fellow clergymen.

    Are you talking about John Cardinal Newman? Newman himself was buried with his life-long companion as you well know, and what a surprise the Vatican received a few months ago when they tried to go against his last wishes and deter him as part of the process of beatification.

    Newman was a saintly man and everybody knows it; he couldn’t care less about being beatified. He didn’t even want the cardinal’s hat. His pet project was the Oxford Movement which in my mind led to the Oecumenical Council of Vatican II.

    As for your question, I hopefully believe that Cardinal Newman would have stressed, as Jeremy Bentham had already done, that Christians were meant to follow the teachings of Jesus Christ, not those of Paul of Tarsus whose sexual theology was influenced either by Plato’s ‘Laws’ or by the vehemence of Philo of Alexandria who proposed that ‘sodomites’ be killed on sight by the ‘mob’ rather than waste the precious time of the judiciary system. All that because of a misinterpretation of a phrase or two from Leviticus whose origins remain a mystery.

    Jesus himself said nothing about homosexuality. The story of the centurion and his sick servant is ambiguous, but biblical scholars now believe the servant was the Roman centurian’s homosexual lover as was the custom in ancient Rome.

    How the RCC, the ‘mainstreamers’ as you so diplomatically put it, will ever recuperate from this catastrophic blunder is anyone’s guess, but if the faithful in the pews ever got wind of it (which is not likely because they are so damned apathetic), they would most likely spend their money on lottery tickets rather than give it to the Church in order to maintain church buildings which are literally falling apart because they were so badly neglected by a pre-Vatican II mentality that professed that we must concentrate on the spiritual and not pay any attention to the material which is destined to oblivion.

    ‘Nough said.

  66. Steve Parelli 1 May 2009, 6:31am

    Hey Alexender: As for the “brillian” speakers. For nine months Josephy Nicolosi was my therapist. Yes, he was “brilliant” with me. He met a need at the time – affirming me and understanding me and helping me work through much. But, as “brilliant” as he was, I was nowhere near being “cured.” I read all the books you say we should read. Sound all very “brtilliant” but none deliver. I walked out of therapy and into a 12 year “brilliant” relationship — thank God! We were married last August. Now I AM cured – from guilt, from self-denial, from self-hatred, — I affirm my humanity by affirming my sexuality. It is brilliant, my dear Alexender.

  67. Steve Parelli, we are all very happy for you. Please, never stop writing on websites and blogs and telling everybody you can of your experience of Nicolosi’s Reparative Therapy. It sounds like you were the perfect patient . . . yet the “Therapy” clearly failed. There are dozens of others out there who have experienced this for themselves. Gays and lesbians in general, particularly young vulnerable ones, need to hear from all of you . . . before charlatan snake-charming Nicolosi gets to them.

  68. Jean-Paul 1 May 2009, 6:57pm

    Steve Parelli:
    Hats off to you and your husband. Your comments are priceless, even though I believe Alexander is nowhere in sight with his head stuck up his a*se somewhere. There I go being unkind again…
    Thanks.

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