David Christmas, of GALHA, well said. So glad to see that GALHA has issued a statement on this planned conference.
Dear Jacqui Smith.
It is understood that a conference advocating techniques to “cure” people of homosexuality is to be held by the Anglican Mainstream Organisation in London next weekend.
This conference flies openly in the face of equality legislation now firmly in place here in the United Kingdom.
It is understood that the two individuals scheduled to lead this conference are Joseph Nicolosi and Jeffrey Satinover, both believed to be American. We urge you to immediately put in place arrangements to refuse them permission to enter Britain.
Joseph Nicolosi is an advocate and practictioner of “reparative therapy”, the purpose of which is assist people in curing themselves of homosexuality. The therapy works on the assumption that homosexuality is a disease or mental illness that must be treated.
Jeffrey Satinover is understood to have stated in 2005 that sexual orientation is “a fiction” and that it is therefore ludicrous to allow civil rights for a group of people whose condition “does not exist”.
This conference, therefore, is clearly intended as a platform for the encouragement of homophobic ideas and beliefs and for the undertaking of homophobic action, i.e., the “curing” of homosexual people.
The intentions of the planned conference do not conform with UK and European equality legislation which makes it illegal for the vast number of homosexual people in this country, at least, not to be treated with respect and full equality.
Please refuse entry to Joseph Nicolosi and Jeffrey Satinover and do all you are able to discourage the planned “conference”.
It is currently understood that the conference is to be held at: The Emmanuel Centre, 9-23 Marsham Street, London SW1P 3DW.
To the Management,
9-23 Marsham Street
London SW1P 3DW
Dear Sir or Madam,
I understand that there is to be a meeting on your premises of people defying equality legislation in this country. I understand that Anglican Mainstream Organisation intend to hold a conference at which they will discuss methods by which homosexuality can be “removed” from people, i.e. methods by which people can be “cured” of their homosexual nature.
The premise of this group therefore is that homosexuality is an illness and a sickness and that all homosexual people, whether lesbian or gay, are mentally ill. This premise defies equality legislation defined in law in the United Kingdom and Europe and which makes it illegal for the vast number of homosexual people in this country not to be treated with respect and equality.
Please advise the individuals concerned that you will not now offer them any accommodation for their activities as you understand that their purpose offers great offence to the homosexual population of the United Kingdom.
If the planned conference does go ahead on your premises, the gay community will of course need to gather and demonstrate our offence at your building for the duration of the conference.
Nicolosi is a total fraud and has had many of his claims debunked numerous times. Here’s what The American Medical Association and others have to say about reparative therapy.
The American Medical Association stated, “Most of the emotional disturbance experienced by gay men and lesbians around their sexual identity is … due more to a sense of alienation in an unaccepting environment. For this reason, aversion therapy … is no longer recommended.”
The American Academy of Pediatrics warned, “Therapy directed at specifically changing sexual orientation is contraindicated, since it can provoke guilt and anxiety while having little or no potential for achieving changes in orientation.”
The American Psychiatric Association went further: “There is no published scientific evidence supporting the efficacy of ‘reparative therapy’ as a treatment to change one’s sexual orientation.” And again, “The potential risks of ‘reparative therapy’ are great, including depression, anxiety and self-destructive behavior.”
The American Psychological Association agreed: “Medical and mental health professionals also now know that sexual orientation is not a choice and cannot be altered. Groups who try to change the sexual orientation of people through so-called ‘conversion therapy’ are misguided and run the risk of causing a great deal of psychological harm to those they say they are trying to help.”
The “ex-gay ministries” answer these bristling position papers by carefully parsing their definition of success. Rather than sexual orientation transformation resulting in, say, heterosexual marriage, they define success as the ability to resist homosexual urges. Critics see this as temporary suppression of one’s sexuality, nothing more.
Also, these groups curiously keep no long-term follow-up records to scientifically validate their success rates, relying only upon anecdotal evidence. That has been problematic, though, as many founders, successive leaders and clients of these organizations have first claimed to be sexually reoriented and then reverted to homosexuality. Such persons often denounce “conversion therapy” as quackery.
We must do all we can to shut down free speech on the basis it MIGHT offend gays and lesbian.
Hey, Vee, you haven’t been following the previous Comments on this story (see further down the Pink News column). It woz me wot wrote those two templates which Simon has sensibly pasted in here! :-) Good for you, Simon! Good thinking! The letters need to keep going. Do write everybody, both to Jacqui Smith and to the hosts of this squalid little conference.
Meanwhile . . .
I have come across a very very interesting article on Nicolosi and his band! Apparently Nicolosi is a very devout fundamentalist Catholic! (Now planning lecture UK Anglicans on how to turns us queers into straights! My, how ecumenical is that!)
The article tells how Nicolosi and his band have been dispensing their “reparative” therapy for some years in the States. And then along came an academic called Spitzer who decided to “test” how successful Nicolosi’s “reparative” therapy is/was. He startled everyone by digging up several hundred people who had done the Nicolosi course and who WHEN ASKED basically if they were still straight, rather than gay, generally said “Yes, I am!” Hee, hee, hee! How reliable was that as evidence, eh? Not very, when you’re talking about people riddled with religion and/or distaste and disgust for their homosexual inclinations!
But then along comes this other guy, a happily gay guy, called Besen, who decides to do a bit of his own follow-up work on Nicolosi’s patients. Now, he doesn’t just contact them and ask them to answer Yes or No as to whether they are still straight. No, he finds out THE TRUTH . . . and he finds subjects of Nicolosi’s who are well and truly up to their old homosexual ways, but on the quiet! Hee, hee, hee! OF COURSE!
“Newsweek magazine ran a cover story in 1998 about John and Anne Paulk, formerly gay but blissfully married. The Paulks were the poster boy and girl of a national ad campaign splashing across the American media that summer, funded by Christian ex-gay ministries. One night two years later, Besen received a call from a friend in a Washington DC gay bar. Guess who was there, chatting him up? John Paulk. Besen raced there, photographed Paulk, and has been persecuting the ex-gay movement ever since. He ticks off the victories on his fingers: of the four male stars of the 1998 ad campaign thus far, he says, Paulk has been caught, another outed himself and a third was discovered last summer taking part in a men-only orgy.” Hee, hee, hee!
When interviewed, “Nicolosi sighs. ‘You see, sexual reorientation, half of it is to get rid of same-sex attraction. The other half is hopefully opposite-sex attraction. Most clients just can’t imagine being attracted to women. A lot of them say, I just want to stop being attracted to guys. And, hey, that is a workable treatment . . . Even the most successful ex-gay,’ he adds casually, ‘is always going to have to keep an eye on himself, to make sure he ‘doesn’t fall’.” Some worthwhile form of reparative therapy this!
Decca Aitkenhead, writer of the article, reflects, very wisely: “But surely that is the opposite of inner change? It sounds closer to a definition of willpower. . . A recovering alcoholic will always be an alcoholic; successful treatment can only sustain his willpower. But to suggest an ex-gay can ‘relapse’ implies that sexual reorientation is only ever a triumph of willpower, never a conversion of authentic desire.”
Read the full article, folks. It’s long, but persevere right down to the last very sad line. It’s at guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2004/apr/03/weekend.deccaaitkenhead
(You may have to pop www in front of the above link. I still haven’t worked out how to force this Comments software to show a proper link. Can anyone tell me?)
Vee, you silly girl (or silly boy?), this is not a matter of not permitting free speech, this is about stopping a movement that is about striving to eliminate our gay and lesbian identities – or in other words, about the elimination of normal healthy well-adjusted gay and lesbian people on the basis that we are second-rate, intrinsically disordered deviants.
Might your erstwhile nom-de-plume on these pages have been “David Skinner”, by any chance?
Please consider joining our protest on the 25th at 1pm. see details on our Facebook event or my blog http://www.zefrog.eu
thanks (pass this to your contacts too)
Please consider joining our protest on the 25th at 1pm. see details on our Facebook event or my blog (link in my signature)
Humanist Society, the only time I came into contact with humanits was at a funeral of one of their number. I’m a dyed-in-th-wool Christian, but they still get my vote from what I have seen of them. The humanist funeral I attended was a woman who after world war 2 went streaght over to Europe to work for the thousands of orphaned Children as a result of six years war. Truley a woman of substance. They are standing with us now to vanquish the anti Gay lobby.
Worth mentioning that the UK’s only gay humanist charity, the Pink Triangle Trust, <a href=http://ptt-blog.blogspot.com/2009/04/therapists-in-need-of-therapy-or-are.htmlalso had a go at this ridiculous conference a couple of days ago on its blog, in none-too-reverent terms!
Worth mentioning that the UK’s only gay humanist charity, the Pink Triangle Trust, also had a go at this ridiculous conference a couple of days ago on its blog, in none too reverent terms!
Thanks, Andy for that link.
Here’s another link on The Pink Triangle website, re. the planned homophobes’ conference of this weekend.
PHIL P, You creepy crawly Pinknews Fan. Why do’nt you slither back to your Reptile friends? You ‘Lowlives’ days are numberd.
A reader of the previous Pink News piece about this conference has been planning a peaceful picket of the event on Saturday. Details are here http://www.facebook.com/event.php?eid=71287658602 and on his blog here http://zefrog.blogspot.com. Please come along and picket the conference with us!
er, Brian, are you joking or are you having another accidental mental aberration? (I’m batting for your side, sweetie! :-) )
Hey everyone. A reader of the earlier Pink News article about this conference has planned a peaceful picket outside it. You can see the information here on facebook or here on his blog. Come along and join us to picket the event!
Why are my comments not appearing? I’ll try one more time – perhaps I included too many links. A reader of the earlier Pink News article about this conference has been planned a peaceful picket of the event on Saturday. If you’re on facebook you can find the event by searching for “Protest against the ‘gay cure’ conference”, or you can find information on his blog which is zefrog.eu
Hope you can join us in picketing the conference, and pass the word on to anyone you know who might be interested.
Sorry Phil P. there is so much subterfuge and creepy crawlies trying to infiltrate our info sessions. Sorry again!
What never ceases to amaze me is the way the homosexual legions can never stand on their own feet. Not having a true identity of their own, except the mythical one created by Alfred Kinsey, they desperately try to identify with any recognised section society. They rub themselves up amongst blacks, the disabled, the bullied, with penguins, sheep and monkeys, Jews in the holocaust and with slavery and minority groups in general. They even have the cheek to demand that we too are so insecure that we too need to identify ourselves as heterosexual. I am not heterosexual but a man.
As for race, black people are deeply offended by the association with homosexuals.
As for disability, I am certain that the paraplegics who entered into the Paralympics at the 2008 Beijing Olympic games, would also find this offensive. No one would deny a disabled person the opportunity of being healed or even the recognition that they had special needs. Will those engaged in therapeutic and reparative ministries for homosexuals become caught by Lord Waddington’s clause 58?
As for sheep and goats, the animal world has never been a good yard stick for human behaviour, unless that is you identify yourself as queer.
As for being bullied what greater demonstration of bullying can there be but from Ben Summerskill, , Ernst Roehm who helped to establish Hitler, the thugs who presently hold power in government, the minority support police and of course those on this blog.
As for slavery, what greater slavery can there be but to sodomy, buggery, fisting, rimming, water sports, felching, scats, coprophilia, sado- masochism, whipping, giving the gift and bondage itself. Such bestial acts reduce gays to lumps of meat- even below that of sheep and penguins. Such acts lead not only to slaver and addictions but an early death.
As for the holocaust, why don’t we mention the activities of Dr Fritz von Balluseck in the concentration camps.
As for minorities in general, at the Beijing Olympic Games, 2008, out of nearly 12000 athletes there were only eight lesbians and two homosexual. If the claim is that 6-10% of population is gay ( hardly a small minority) where were the other 1000?
Whilst black, disabled and those of different races do not wish to be segregated or singled out for different treatment, negative or positive, the homosexuals insist on being given distinction- gay hotels, gay bars, gay Olympic games, gay rugby teams, gay MPs. They demand that we include their demand to be exclusive: the inclusive right to exclusivity. This is amply demonstrated with the London Zoo putting on homosexual Sunday.
What gays really want is the equivalent of Islamic dhimmitude – sodhimmitude.
Phil not only are you not good at self- identification but identifying mee from Vee
David – do you accept biblical teaching that allows a man to rape his wife? If not then why not?
Do you accept biblical teaching that allows a man to own slaves? If not then why not?
Do you accept biblical teaching that allows a man to stone his wife to death for committing adultery? If not then why not?
You are not allowed to pick and choose if you really believe in ‘god’ you know.
Dear david skinner as some one who is classed as disabled i can tell you that poeple do deny others there rights and i have had my rights denined before also as a disabled person i say how dare you assume to talk for anyone other than yourself as for some people of your faith i have ones like you tell me that im a devil child because im disabled thats not forgeth that up until the 50s maybe 60s anyone who was disabled was damned to hell by your kind or a devil child for being born disabled ones like you seem to think there is a cure for everything and the cure is praying. Now as a gay Man I find your coments rather foolish and Laughable and not at all loical calling homosexuls bestial there is noting bestial about sex with the same gender or not did you forget than many non gay men and women use whips and chains what ever else that all has to do with that person on sexual fantays so how rude of you to Judge every one with that lable and aslo as a gay man im not demanding anything I am happy with my life I know for afact that I have always been gay and I also know that you can not cure something that is not a illness to say you can make a gay man staight is laughable thats like me saying i can make you gay . now as a pagan i live my life by Bide within the Law you must, in perfect Love and perfect Trust. Live you must and let to live, fairly take and fairly giveThese Eight words the Rede fulfill An Ye Harm None, Do What Ye Will I do not tell you how to live your life and say that you are wrong or ill i let you have your views with the hope that you will one day open your eyes to embarce the wise and the turth I never have and never will beg or demand rights of anyone or for accpentce im gay get over it if you hate something then avoid it as simplye as that so why come on to a gay news sight and froce your views on others who to put it nicely dont want to hear the same old rubbish from the likes of you may the lord and lady bless you all with there everlasting love and joy and may they bless you with ture love regardless of gender blessings of love and light and hugs to all
Simon, these are good questions and if I had the time to explain to you these apparently perplexing issues and you had the patience and a genuine and sincere desire to know the answer, I can assure you that there is a rational explanation. But like the sheep in wolf’s clothing, Barack Hussein Obama II, another case of mistaken identity, you don’t know the difference between your exegesis and your hermeneutics. And believe me, Simon, the Pink News is the last place where I would have the liberty of doing an in depth Bible Study. Believe me it won’t happen. Your best bet is to go one of numerous Bible study sites on the net. But something tells me that is not likely to happen. My faith does not stretch that far.
But Simon, when was the last time you heard of Christians advocating rape, slavery and stoning, anywhere in the world today. Jesus Christ never promulgated such teaching. You might at least attempt to bone up on a subject before revealing your ignorance. At least learn the difference between Jesus Christ and Mohammed, the serial adulterer, psychopath paedophile and liar.
Simon, as briefly as I can explain. The reason we all die is not through natural causes. The reason we and all of creation are condemned to die is because this was God’s just punishment for going our own way. Death is a consequence of sin. Unfortunately our deaths are not sufficient payment to put wipe the slate and we are therefore condemned to suffer a second , but infinitely worse death which will once and for all separate us from God and all his goodness. This is called hell and is a place of eternal torment and suffering. But God not wanting that any would lost sent his own son, Jesus Christ to suffer the punishment that we deserve. We do not have accept his being a substitute ; we can decide to attempt to pay the bill ourselves; that is our choice but someone pays. But as I have just explained nothing we can do, not even our own deaths can put us right with God. Those who willingly accept God’s free pardon are not only pardoned but welcomed into the most inclusive family of all with all its privileges and promises of an inheritance that no eye has seen, no ear heard or mind conceived. This is called the Church of Christ. Entry is open even to you Simon if only you would exchange your filth for Christ’s righteousness. Choose life rather than death.
Isn’t it curious what unlikely bedfellows these Evangelicals will choose when it comes to propagating their heinous quackery?!
Joseph Nicolosi is a Roman Catholic and Jeffrey Satinover an Orthodox Jew.
As far as the vast majority of Evangelicals are concerned, then, the Bible places both of these men firmly among the damned – not the saved – for their religious allegiances.
Most Evangelicals regard the Roman Catholic Church as, at best, an Apostate Church, and a source of false doctrine. Many still view the RCC as the Whore of Babylon!
And no true, Bible-believing Evangelical could possibly believe that a ‘Christ-rejecting’ Orthodox Jew is destined to spend eternity anywhere except the good ole Lake of Fire itself.
(I know that sounds offensive, and it is – it’s also an inevitable corollary of becoming a Bible-believing fundy Christian)
But these fundagelical ‘saints’ have so little integrity left, they’d get into bed with the Whore of Babylon, the Beast with the Seven Heads & Ten Horns, and even the Antichrist himself to flog their repressive quackery…
“Death is a consequence of sin”.
Does this include infant deaths?
“Those who willingly accept God’s free pardon are not only pardoned but welcomed into the most inclusive family of all with all its privileges and promises of an inheritance that no eye has seen, no ear heard or mind conceived”.
Could Hitler be in Heaven then?
david skinner: did God say a word about homosexuality in the Ten Commandments? Is Jesus quoted anywhere commenting on homosexuality. The answer to both is ‘no’. Through all your comments, it’s clear that you’ve become a worshipper of the Bible rather than God. Perhaps you need to examine your own soul before commenting on the state of others.
“Simon, these are good questions and if I had the time to explain to you these apparently perplexing issues and you had the patience and a genuine and sincere desire to know the answer, I can assure you that there is a rational explanation.”
Ahahaha. Nice one. Go eat your shellfish, hypocrite.
Yes, go eat your shellfish, . . . or go take your medication, you poor Paranoid Schizophrenic!
Paranoid Schizophrenics live in a world of their own devising and block out or blank out any question that threatens the world they have devised. This “David Skinner” has been well and truly kicked in the teeth in the other thread after he claimed all we gays and lesbians worship ourselves and our orgasms. He was presented with irrefutable proof that his statement was false and he even came back and added to my list of gays and lesbians who clearly are not devoted to the worship of themselves or their orgasms. Shortly after that he manifestly revealed himself to have been completely flummoxed. He issued a stream of incohrenet nonsense that had us all chortling. Nevertheless, roughly 24 hours later but he has blanked all of that out and is back, sure as ever that his paranoid constructed world is true.
Your bad bad thoughts are not facts, “David Skinner”. You have to learn to teach yourself to question your bad bad thoughts.
Everyone else. As you may have guessed I have had intimate experience of a very close friend fall victim to Paranoid Schizophrenia. If they will not admit it and seek help, you do have to let them be . . . until they eventually unravel. You can’t argue with them. For the Paranoid Schizophrenic is fearful imagined world is totally real and any objections or reasoning you put to him will simply be blanked out and he/she will bounce back. I suggest we will now simply ignore this very sad individual. Paranoid Schizophrenics actually relish their delusions and they feel fantastic when they think they are alone against the world. They feel heroic. Jesus was possibly a Paranoid Schizophrenic.
What I don’t understand (And I am not judging by the way, because I am with you all) – is why we’re responding to David Skinner?? It is clear to us all that his arguments are irrational and disordered…..my suggestion is to just ignore him (unless you’re a therapist who welcomes the business)
I have been following your traces on other websites. I think it is about time you were exposed for the bigotry, homophobia and hate mongering from which you think you can escape accountability.
I understand that you want to be exposed, which is why you have not been circumspect about your identity on these sites.
I think your diocese would be very interested in how your frequent gay chat sites inciting hatred. . . I am sure they will be fascinated by your very “Christian Behaviour”; as will be your family friends, work colleagues and the wider community that you live in. . . .
In addition many of us are looking forward to putting a face to your hate filled, if some what plagiarised rhetoric at this gay cure conference. . .
In addition you really should be reminded that the sin of Sodom and Gomorrah is “inhospitality” . . . not homosexual activity per se.
David . . .You frequent this site and violate it with you’re off topic rants . . . polluting it with your narcissistic self absorbed, hate filled rhetoric. . . You are very “hospitable” aren’t you!
Moreover, . . . it appears your incapacity to reason appears to be the result of over activity in the nether regions. Not to worry . . . I have been assured by theological experts there is nothing the of angels of Sodom and Gomorrah cannot sort out in the old sewage department. Let us know when you have had a visitation from our Lord . . . alternatively get a psychiatric referral from your local GP for a course of antipsychotics.
Further more David
WHICH BIT OF THE FOLLOWING DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND?
We are not interested in your prayers to save our souls
We are not interested in accepting Jesus as our personal saviour
We are not interested in your endless cut and paste bible bashing
Further – Further more David
We are not interested in your warped and patronising broken record of homophobia
so 1950s . . . and so over. . .
. . . and please do not sacrifice any goats for us.
David . . . I rather think this blunt salutation sort of sums up what every one on this site is trying to tell you.
David – your comment:
“Simon, these are good questions”
Why have you not answered them. Why?
It’s quite simple.
If you believe in a christian “god” then you must accept the bible as its word. Otherwise you are not a christian.
The bible justifies rape, slavery, and stoning to death. The bible is ‘god’s’ word.
Do you accept the bible as the word of ‘god’?
Now look here; I am not at all impressed by the level of abuse, foul language, lies, hatred, bigotry, blindness, sheer stupidity and wickedness from this site. I was expecting far more. Is that really all you lot can do? Surely your father has taught you more than that! Unless you can considerably increase the bile, false accusations and gnashing of teeth, I fear that things are going to get very, very hot when you all get home… below. Be warned. In the meantime I have a lot to do tomorrow. So goodnight.
David I only used one foul word . . .
it was Piss Off . . .
which bit of that did you not understand
Excellent guess. I believe Duke, David Skinner and Vee are only 3 of this guy’s 86 personalities, and it’s anybody’s guess if he’s on or off his medication.
David Skinner, Child Okeford , Dorset, UK.
He is all over the web with his hate you just can not miss him the guy is obsessed.
Such erudition on the part of Phil P and others…such opposition from David Skinner; I could never hope to hold my corner in such august company.
I can only put my point of view based on what actually happened to me; no erudition, no verbal table-tennis, no slaggin’ off…just my experience; just history.
My grandfather’s father was an ultra-orthodox Russian Jew and a Rabbi; the family came to Britain in the late 1800′s from Odessa.
My grandfather (his son) met and wanted to marry my grandmother a Mooney, an Irish Catholic.
There nearly was World War X on account of it, apparently.
So my grandfather told his father, the Rabbi, to go stuff himself. My grandfather (Rabbi’s son) was instantly declared ‘dead.’
They even had “sh’va” for him…(Orthodox service for the dead)
He was cut off without a penny.
My grandfather could not have cared less about religion and so I was brought up Catholic with nuns and Irish Christian Brothers and all the rigmarole, on the insistance of my Irish grandmother.
I was smitten with it all and never out of church, never off the altar or my knees, rosary beads never out of my hands..a right little ‘nause’ apparently.
“He’ll grow out of it.” – they said.
But ‘he’ (me) didn’t; not yet anyway.
Still smitten, I went off to a religious order at 14/15 and started to train for the priesthood only to find that, at 18/19, when I half realised what ‘downstairs’ was for, other than to pee with, and that it was all linked to the vow of chastity/celibacy I was about to make, along came a new
word(s) ‘homosexual/-ity’ and I realised that this word explained me, exactly, to myself; explained the feelings I had known in myself since I was 4/5/6 years old.
Like a big, dolloping ‘gawp’…I told the father superior, Father Scouse O’ Fudge-Piece of my proclivity/ies.
He told me I was ‘sick’…one of very few men ‘afflicted’ with this illness but that there was a doctor in Liverpool who would be able to help me with electricity and …usque ad nauseam.
“Meanwhoile, (he was Scouse Irish.!) Go wit God moi son, pray arlways..and blah-tee-blah-tee-blah”
I went home on the Friday, went to mass on the Sunday, but got up half way thro’ walked out and have never been in a church since; that was 1961.
So there you are.
Today, it is Noroci who is having his 15 minutes.
I would love to meet this man and undergo his treatment, just to prove him WRONG; I would volunteer myself although, at coming up 70, it is probably too late in the day from a ‘downstairs’ perspective.
I would argue every step of the way; I would question EVERYTHING and as clever as he is, unless he is homosexual himself, I would win. You cannot know what homosexuality is unless you are homosexual yourself.
All the talking in the world is just that..’talking’ and he might as well save his breath to cool his custard.
He is only trying to make a name for himself so good luck to him for that.
The pity is that in so doing he, and the Iris Robinsons, of this world, are hurting many and encouraging others to hurt their fellow beings by their anti-gay crusading, rantings and ravings about something which, when all is said and done, liitle, really, is known.
Well Spocken Brian R. and Keith. That David Skinner is a reptile who will slither around for a while then vamoos!
You’re being reptilephobic :-)
I don’t think Nicolosi should be banned from the country. You can only do that if incitement to violence is implied.
If you stop freedom of expression, you shut down debate. Democracy, reason is robust enough to stand this surely. You effectively deny people the right to change their minds because they can’t be exposed to the argument, and Nicolosi himself cannot be challenged.
Why stop at banning Nicolosi? Why not ban God TV, close all the churches as well? might not a banner saying Christ Died For Your Sins outside a methodist church be dangerous, and lead to fanaticism?
Folks, I have woken up this morning to an email from the Met Police. Like lots of people here I emailed The Emmanuel Centre earlier this week to ask them to refuse to host this hateful conference and to warn that if they don’t there will be trouble. They are clearly so WORRIED that they have got in touch with Met Police.
The email below shows that the Met Police are more than willing to let people demonstrate, HOWEVER if no-one has already done so, someone who will there on the day MUST get in touch with the police and fill out the relevant application. Of course a gathering can occur without doing this, but if so the police would be within their rights to confront or disperse people. Clearly they don’t want to do that. I don’t live in England and can’t be there. Someone needs to see to this immediately. Email Paul McIntyre and arrange it now.
Here’s the text of the email I have received.
Subject: Your communications to the Emanuel centre
Date sent: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 09:31:43 +0100
It has come to our attention that you have been in communication with the Emmanuel Centre in regards to a conference being held at the location on the 24 & 25th of April.
The reason for my contacting me is that you mention in your communication the need to gather at the location and demonstrate. I wish to bring to your attention that this venue is within the “designated area” under Section 132 of the Serious and Organised Crime and Police Act 2005 and therefore any interest group wishing to protest would need to Apply to the Commissioner, via my department under Section 133 of the SOCPA Act in order to hold their protest.
We would not hinder any protest but ask that a representative completes the application in order to comply with this legislation. We would authorise this protest as we would any lawful protest and would endeavour to facilitate the gathering at the location.
I attach an application form and ask that if you are serious in attending to demonstrate that you complete the form and e-mail it back to this office and send the signed original back to the address below via recorded delivery.
If you do have any queries please do not hesitate to contact this office.
After going against my grain and taking the time to read the comments of Duke, Dave Skinner and Vee, I firmly believe, and there is no cause for panic, that we have among us a suicidal maniac screaming as loud as he can for help.
Furthermore, I believe that PinkNews, having lived up to its principle of impartiality, now has the responsibility to hand over to the British Police Department a copy of the two threads where this unfortunate person, male or female, has been harassing us.
He may be keeping a child hostage in his basement for his own sexual gratification, and it may take the police a long, long time to identify him, apprehend him and hand him over to a health system which will quickly give him the professional love and care, the milk of human kindness, he so badly and obviously needs. In computer terms, a ‘long, long time’ amounts to 4 or 5 minutes.
Before this person opens fire in a shopping mall or a gay club and puts a bullet in his own head, let’s do the decent thing and alert the authorities at once.
We are not doing anything illegal, and following the example of Baron Wolfenden, we need to leave the moral side of the issue in the underground sewage system of London along with the pretty fur-trimmed drag outfits of the vestiges of the ancient Egyptian priesthood who refused time and time again to give their countless tons of grain to a starving population in times of famine.
I ain’t no Moses, but it don’t take a burning bush to reveal the truth about this outrageous situation which has already taken up too much of our precious time.
Buon giorni a tutti…and that’s as far as my Italian goes..THAT’S ALL YOUR GETTING..!
I too have just had the very same e-mail from Mr. McIntyre of the Metropolitan Police.
You have taken the wind from my sails haha! the bullet from my gun hoho!! and the lead out me pencil teehee!!!.
I suspect many, if not all, who e-mailed the EMMANUEL CENTRE have been referred to the police who in turn….bla bla bla…
And as you so rightly say, they (EMMANUEL) must be crapping it; many changes of panties in the offing!
So much for free speech in the U.K.
So much for the right to defend yourself against hatemongers.
So much for the law which has legislated specifically against discrimination on many grounds, on age, on disability, on sexual orientation, on colour, and on…and on and bleeding well on.
LIP-SERVICE, EVERY LAST SYLLABUBBLE.
Jean-Paul, I believe you are right. The Met only need to visit the Pink News’ offices and/or Pink News’ ISP and examine IP numbers and they’ll be able to trace this hate-filled bigot in, as you say, minutes. I’m going to use the email address above right now to do this. I suggest others do the same. If it’s not Paul McIntyre’s responsibility I am sure he will pass it on to the relevant person.
I am nearly 70 and have nothing to lose; no family to suffer any backlash; never had, never wanted, a partner; no nowt; nobody that could be ‘got at’; nobody to be caused pain on my account.
I would be willing for these people to try and ‘cure’ me… all in public…on the lines of a controlled experiment…which does not seem to have been carried out.
All it seems to be is that the ‘patient’ has suddenly realised he is not gay after all; hearsay with a vested interest.
I HAVE NOWT ELSE TO DO.
AND THERE IS NO PAIN THEY COULD INFLICT ON ME NOW THAT I HAVE NOT ALREADY BEEN THRO’ IN MY YOUNGER DAYS COURTESY OF THE CATHOLIC SODDING CHURCH.
“DO YER WORST..!” I SAY.
I WOULD FLOOR EVERY LAST ONE OF THEM AND ‘OUT’ QUITE A FEW ALONG THE WAY, I SUSPECT; NOT MANY MEN GET PAST ME THAT I DO NOT SUSS WITHIN MINUTES.
THEY WOULD NOT BE ABLE TO CHANGE THE COLOUR OF MY EYES AND THEY WOULD NOT BE ABLE TO CHANGE MY HOMOSEXUALITY WHICH I FIRMLY BELIEVE I WAS BORN WITH.
Dear Paul McIntyre,
For several days a person using the name “David Skinner” has been posting incredibly persistent hate-filled homophobic messages on at least two Comment threads on the UK Pink News website.
Another poster has just posted a message suggesting:
“Before this person opens fire in a shopping mall or a gay club and puts a bullet in his own head, let’s do the decent thing and alert the authorities at once.”
There could well be sense in this. Of course, “David Skinner” could be “gay-baiting” . . . but on the other hand his degree of hatred and persistence suggests he COULD well be another “Admiral Duncan pub-bomber”.
The extraordinary level of his hatred can be seen at:
On both of the above pages, click the red Comments link directly beneath the picture in the middle of the page.
If this matter is not your responsibility, please pass it on to the head of the relevant section.
NB Do we all have to fill in this form?
And has there been any reaction from Lambeth Palace, or any C of E bishop to this, or does Rowan Williams think it’s alright? Silence is more like washing your hands of it….
The Nazis called it “reprogramming”. Can anyone tell me why these latter day Nazis are being allowed into the UK?
AdrianT, no only one person has to do it. The Facebook guy who is organising the demo should certainly do it. Maybe check with him?
Methinks, David Skinner is that lunatic Hank who comes on here and posts religious garbage to justify discrimination and stir up anti-gay sentiment.
Against Conference on Treatment to Eliminate Homosexuality in Gay Men & Women
Saturday 25 April 2009
13:00 – 15:00
at “The Emmanuel Centre”, 9-23 Marsham Street, London, UK.
For further details of this protest see:
For background see:
Joseph Nicolosi, the main speaker at the above Conference, claims that academic research has verified that his “Reparative Therapy” works and works well, but it has since been found that the “academic research” was flawed: people whose homosexuality was treated were simply approached and asked if the therapy had worked, yes or no. Of course, the vast majority of the self-hating gay men and women who had put themselves under Nicolosi’s therapy simply said “Yes” to their interviewer . . . but many have subsequently been found continuing to exercise their true gay or lesbian identities on the quiet. However, devout Catholic fundamentalist Joseph Nicolosi and his associates continue to ply their trade, “Reparative Therapy”. They are charlatans and frauds.
If some one says, “I don’t want to be male – change me,” we think this should be facilitated.
If someone says, “I don’t want to be gay – change me,” we say this shouldn’t be allowed.
Is there a significant difference between the two cases?
“If some one says, “I don’t want to be male – change me,” we think this should be facilitated.
If someone says, “I don’t want to be gay – change me,” we say this shouldn’t be allowed.
Is there a significant difference between the two cases?”
Nobody asks to be a gender that they’re not. Where are you getting this from? Transsexuals? Do you know anything about transsexuals? Transsexuals seek to change their (physical) sex to match their (mental) gender. Why should they have to endure invasive and harmful mental conditioning just because people find their condition hard to understand?
The only reason any LGBT person would seek to change who they are as a (healthy, perfectly natural) person is due to bullying and bigotry, being made to feel unnatural and disgusting. It’s the LGBT-phobes who need therapy.
Nice try Paul Brownsey
It is certainly true that there are some gay people wanting to change their sexual orientation . . .but why have you not stopped to wonder why?
Consider these propositions:
1. When did you last hear of a heterosexual wanting to change their sexual orientation to homosexual?
2. When did you last hear of a homosexual therapist arguing that they could change heterosexual people gay?
You draw a upon the analogy of transexualism because you seem to want to avoid addressing the complexity in the latter proposition you raise in your argument.
Why is that Paul?
Why do you want to ameliorate this complexity?
If you can change a gay to straight . . . why can you not imagine changing a straight queer?
You reveal a lot about your state of mind. . . you seem preoccupied with extermination fantasies.
Possibly this is so because you are heterocentric in your thinking
This is a form of narcissism, which means you only see the world in heterosexual terms. This is because you possibly do not have the empathy or emotional capacity to imagine anything else. It’s a form of arrested development really.
O dear! . . . what a dull world you live in.
Excellent answer, Pumpkin Pie! :-)
Thank you Phil for your support. I would add that this deeply disturbed individual has, as Keith has pointed out, a level of erudition with regards to Scripture far above the average and, it seems to me, his English is impeccable.
In fact, this person possesses the manipulative power of Classical Greek Rhetoric used effectively as pastoral theology in pre-Vatican II Catholicism to shackle the flock and milk them dry as they were held in awe by Italian sentimentality in the form of unearthly statues, pastel gilded-edged fictitious portraits of saints young and old (holy pictures), even drops of beeswax from the candles used on the altar of a mass in honor of some aspect of the divinity, a saint, or the soul of a dearly departed.
To change the subject, and if you’ll bear with me for a moment, it has crossed my mind several times that we have not heard from EDDY since I supposedly humiliated him by ‘negating his perceptions’.
Negating his perceptions – a meaningless phrase that sounds like something someone picked up in a Psych 101 course at a third-rate university. What the hell else do we do here all day if not negate each other’s perceptions? It’s the kind of banter or conflict that promotes personal growth more quickly than growing cucumbers in a greenhouse, and it certainly has not been taken by anyone I’ve ever known as a devastatingly humiliating experience.
I know it’s not fair to talk about someone when he’s not around to speak for himself, but I can’t help wondering where EDDY has been for the last two weeks. Does anybody know? Has he been hospitalized and lost his access to the Internet?
Frankly, EDDY, if you are listening, I’d like to hear from you, regardless of what you think of me, and you have my permission to lay it on as thick as you like. Now that I think of it, we haven’t heard from your friend NED either.
As for Peter Tatchell, I am giving him one more day of grace. If he does not make a public comment about this asinine meeting of bigots, I will cross his name off my list of men whose wisdom has impressed me, and I will add the name of Mr. RobN.
And now Paul Brownsey! What is this? Another alias or some kind of circus with monkeys jumping all over the place? Or is it a concerted effort to confuse us on all sides?
Drag Queens of the world, we need your support like when you confronted the New York City police force at Stonewall ’69.
I understand Peter is back home in Australia at the moment.
Jean-Paul I love your line about circus monkeys . . . and I was thinking the more of them we get in our tent the better – I want ever one to see them dance and reveal thier true colours . . .
O Dear Mr Paul Brownsey has lost his balance already, and seems to have disapeared with his tail between his legs.
I write for a London gay paper and would like to attend the demo. Conflicting messages: is it at 13.00 or 16.00?
I am sending a message of encouragement to all of you who will be demonstrating outside the Emanuel Centre, Marsham St., today and tomorrow.
In all ‘probability‘, to use one of Richard Dawkin’s words, the Prime Minister, Gordon Brown, Peter Mandeleson, Chris Bryant, Chris Smith , Ben Bradshaw, the Eagle Twins, Harriet Harmen, Angela Mason , Boris Johnson, Ben Summerskill….. and many others, would, I am sure, have been there urging you on. There are others who, but for obvious reasons, in all probability, would have been there giving you encouragement, such as Karl Heinrich Ulrichs, Gerhard Rossbach, Ernst Roehm, Rudolph Hess, Gilles de Rais, Jeffrey Dahmer, Albert Fish, Javed Iqbal Mughal, John Haig, Nicolas Panard, Thomas Watt Hamilton, Damian Oldfield, William Beggs, Joshua Macave Brown, David Don Carpenter, Boy George, Charlie Davies, Terrance Higgins, Garry Frisch and Kevin Greening.
Make sure you get your creative department to knock up plenty of banners saying “Jesus is a Fag” and please, please, urge Ian McKellen, no less, to come along and read out the sublime poem, “The Love that Dares to Speak its Name” by James Kirkup. That really should go down well, especially with the parents and pupils to whom he recently spoke at St. George’s School, Harpenden. It’s a pity he failed to read it out on that occasion, but he has his opportunity now, to render the full force of its Christianophobia, hatred, bigotry, militancy, filth, obscenity, blasphemy, pornography, self deception, delusion, distraction and destruction. Something, which I may say, has been disappointingly lacking on this site.
What we definitely don’t want is the slightest doubt, any pale shades of pink, or any of Dawkin’s wishy washy ‘probability‘. Do we? We need pride, gay pride, boldness and the certainty that the true face of homosexuality will be displayed for all to see today. …and… tomorrow. You know what to do. Do what you have to do.
Nicolosi was up against Rev Sharon Ferguson of the Lesbian & Gay Christian Movement in the last five minutes of this morning’s edition of Today, Radio 4. Go to BBC iPlayer
Jean-Paul, from what you say above it looks like you don’t know yet that Pink News has got a Thatcherite pro-capitalist fascist who deletes certain Comments and who blocks the IDs and email addresses of posters he or she does not like.
At the same time, the same person permits hateful anti-gay Comments to remain on the site.
I hope you get to see this message. He/she may choose to delete this. But possibly not, to appear not to be the fascist he/she actually is.
Of course we don’t think Christians and other religious believers are in anyway bonkers or ever so slight deluded, despite some of the weird and whacky “facts” that they tend to believe in. No, perish the very thought.
That said, doesn’t it ever occur to them that they’re being just a little bit “brave” to accuse us of being psychologically flawed? Do People in Glasshouses spring to mind?
The fact that some of the anti gay mob are also appear to be far more fascinated by weird and offbeat sex practices than any gay people that I happen to know is also highly revealing.
What’s really depressing is that the “gay cure” brigade are obsessed with sexual orientation, and not with helping people whether gay or straight, to find genuine love, without which sex will always tend to be an a somewhat empty experience. Since gay people can and often do, find lasting love, that should be the end of the story.
Even if we try to be kind to Nicolosi and assume that he means well, all the indications seem to be that if someone is gay, and for any reason unhappy, then he will assume their sexuality to be the cause of their problems. The same “logic” would urge an unhappy and sexually straight woman in a miserable marriage to become a lesbian.
I hope that sensible Christians, and I know there are a lot of them, will do their best to associate themselves from these dangerous eccentrics.
Of course we don’t think Christians and other religious believers are in anyway bonkers or ever so slight deluded, despite some of the weird and whacky “facts” that they tend to believe in (virgin births, rising from the dead, invisible beings, etc.). No, perish the very thought!
Christians should do their best to DISassociate themselves from dangerous Christian fundamentalists like Joseph Nicolosi . . . who at this very minute, in Marsham Street, is instructing people in how to “repair” gay men and women. (I wouldn’t be surprised if they didn’t start off with a prayer to “almighty god”.)
David Skinner . . . thank you for the encouragment. Thats right, the more visability we can generate on this issue; the more we can point out and draw the publics attention to your . . .
How disturbed your state of mind is!
Thanks, Phil P! :3
I do wish people on this board would stop being so venomous towards those they think are opponents, not to mention the silly attempts of John K to diagnose the sort of person I am.
I asked my question about being in favour of transexual change but against gay-to-straight exchange (if it’s possible) because I was genuinely interested in hearing what people would say was the significant difference between the cases; and that by way of trying to improve my own reasoning against the anti-gay bigots, whom I have been fighting against in various ways for nearly 40 years.
I don’t need to be told that gay people who seek to change usually do so because they can see no way to live *as* a gay person and/or have been worn down by oppression. In my teens I would go on my knees and pray that I might fancy women, there being no way before me of living in accordance with my sexuality. Very many gay people go through similar phases when young of hoping their sexuality will go away. With luck they find the support and the opportunities to live happily in their nature.
But what if they’re not so lucky? Declaring, as Pumpkin Pie does (why are so many of you hiding behind pseudonyms?), that it’s the homophobes who need the treatment is no answer in the case of the particular oppressed individual who’s been broken by oppression and asks that an attempt be made to change him or her. Is that person to be denied? Of course, such attempts are likely not to work; still, what if such a person says, “Please – just try”? Of course, we work so that people won’t reach that level of desperation; but meanwhile, given that some do, are they to be refused what they ask for?
I think what I’m fundamentally interested in is this. Our fight seems grounded in the idea that the individual should be sovereign over how they live their life (subject to usual constraints about not harming others, etc); yet where an admittedly broken and despairing individual seeks to exercise that sovereignty with a view to trying to change, we suddenly say he or she shouldn’t be allowed to. Perhaps someone with a rich depth of psychiatric or psychotherapeutic expertise like John K would declare such a person not to be in a fit state of mind to make a choice; but there are obvious dangers in dismissing those you disagree with as not being competent to make a decision. Treating dissenters or those who choose differently from you as mentally sick is an old, old form of oppression.
Paul Brownsey you’re just laughable. You’re trying to say you are progressive while at the same time trying to attract attention as an intellectual who can see complexity that others can’t. But you’re just the laughable pain-in-the-arse nerd in the corner. Isn’t that right?
Paul Brownsey . . . you seem lost in your complexity.
Your extermination phantasy’s which you package as dissent . . . quite frankly worry me.
Geoff’s colourful abuse of me is notable in that he doesn’t engage with a single point that I made.
John K attributes extermination fantasies to me. What is an extermination fantasy? I don’t thjink there’s any evidence that I have one. This is misuse of quasi-psychiatry to put others down.
Hell has no fury like a gay man who turns his rage on other gays.
But you presented us with a suspect analogy . . . fail to respond to my questions over your rhetorical devices, which you use to avoiding the complexity of central propsition – which quite franky seems to ellude you . . . and yes these are put downs . . . well done for spotting that. Because you are behaving like a village idiot we are treating you like one.
You do not deserve our respect . . . if you want any intellectual fight give us one.
Untill then go and do your GCSE’s Sunny Jim
Repeated because of previous Typos – apologise.
But you presented us with a suspect analogy . . . fail to respond to my questions over your rhetorical devices, which you use to avoid the complexity of your central proposition – which quite frankly seems to allude you . . .
and yes some of the previous comments were put downs . . . well done for spotting that.
Because you are behaving like a village idiot we are treating you like one.
You do not deserve our respect . . . if you want any intellectual fight give us one.
Until then go and do your GCSE’s Sunny Jim
I feel I need to add something. I want to bring clarity to the discussion – I see the name of Jesus being rubbed in the dirt by both sides of the discussion and the teachings of the Bible misunderstood and misrepresented.
Yes, the Bible teaches that there is right and wrong, and that we have all have fallen short in every way including in sexual relation to one another. This includes all Christians, it includes David Skinner, it includes you and it most definitely includes me. It is clearly taught in the Bible that homosexual practice is a ‘sin’ – it grieves God’s heart and is outside of his will. However, it is also clearly taught that judgementalism, anger and heterosexual lust are sins. It is not one segment of society that are ‘sinners’, but all of mankind. Jesus does not define us like we define ourselves. He knows each person, their pain and their struggle individually. To him every person is so dearly loved, but so greatly broken. He died on the cross to take away the punishment for our sin, to bring us back to God, and to free us from whatever enslaves us.
Let me tell you a bit of my story… I became a Christian five years ago whilst at university. Before I was a Christian I had several sexual relationships outside of marriage, and was bisexual. When I became a Christian (because I became convinced through historical evidence that the gospel stories are reliable) I didn’t think there was anything wrong with my lifestyle. I stopped doing it because I knew that it was against God’s will, but I didn’t get why. Then slowly, over time, God showed me the selfishness of the way I had been living, the hurt it had done to other people, and the hurt it had caused me. I became determined to keep myself pure for my future husband – no sex, no nothing. And with God’s help I’ve done it. I’m getting married this summer. In the past five years I haven’t been in the least bit dissatisfied or frustrated, and I haven’t oppressed my sexuality and committed any heinous sexual acts as a result. I am a happy, ‘normal’, balanced person (although not without my fair share of struggles) My fiancé has waited 27 years and feels the same. Of course there are times when it’s hard and you long for someone, but I had that when I wasn’t celibate too. I very rarely have bisexual thoughts, and when I do I am not bothered by them, don’t feel guilty about them, but simply ‘give them to Jesus’ and forget about it. I didn’t become a Christian because I felt guilty, or judged, but because I believed it was true.
I also had a roommate last year who used to be lesbian. She too became a Christian, for other reasons, and when she came to God, felt her sexuality was a barrier between her and Him. She asked God to help her, and after a very hard time, stopped with same-sex relationships. Eight years on she still doesn’t struggle with feelings for women, and falls in love with men a bit too easily! Another friend I met at the same time used to be a male gay prostitute, and a heroin addict. When he became a Christian, he came off heroin without cold-turkey and put homosexual practice behind him. He is now sincerely, happily married with a child. The both had struggles, but don’t in any way regret their decision. I believe that some people, for whatever reason, have homosexual feelings and others don’t. However, when the Holy Spirit comes into someone’s life He convicts them that acting on these feelings is wrong, and gives them power to overcome the feelings themselves.
However, as for ‘reprogramming’, I don’t believe it’s Biblical. The Bible warns against harsh treatment of the body and simplistic ‘don’t touch’ methods of dealing with sin (Col 2:20-23). The only way to overcome anything that gets between you and God is the power of the Holy Spirit. In some cases, non-judgemental, honest, human counselling can help too.
In defence of conference – it is to help people with unwanted homosexual feelings. If you don’t have unwanted homosexual feelings, then why should it bother you? Just get on with life. This conference is not homophobia. It’s an attempt to help people who for whatever reason are struggling with guilt and pain because of feelings that they don’t want. Some people are happy being gay, some are not. They have a different experience of homosexuality than you, it doesn’t make them wrong.
Just know that although Christian’s can be messed up, judgemental and make big mistakes, Jesus has such a deep love for every person, male, female, gay, straight, thief, and self-righteous Christian included. However you define yourself or are defined by others he knows YOU he made YOU and he loves YOU. He will accept you with all your foibles, sin and brokenness, but also loves you enough to change you. Not into a acceptable middle class conformist, not into a different person, but into the most beautiful you possible.
If some one says, “I don’t want to be male – change me,” we think this should be facilitated.
If someone says, “I don’t want to be gay – change me,” we say this shouldn’t be allowed.
Is there a significant difference between the two cases?
Been there, done that, got the t-shirt.
Gender Dysphoria is a recognised medical condition. Homosexuality is not.
Gender Dysphoria is not about “not wanting to be male”, it’s about a mismatch between ones biological sex and psycological gender. The most effective way we have to re-align these things is Sex-Reassignment Surgery, which I have been through and can therefore testify its effectiveness. My female mind makes me who I am. I didn’t want to change who I am, I wanted to change my body to match how I felt.
Homosexuality is part of who we are but there is no physical mismatch. Homosexuality itself does not cause any ill-feelings within a person. Society is the cause of these problems, society needs to change. A homosexual person can go through life in an accepting environment without any of the sorts of difficulties suffered by a transexual paitent. Homosexuals don’t need to be cured. There is nothing to cure.
See you all tomorrow. I’ll be wearing a t-shirt that says Lesbian Cheerleader and carrying a pink Union Jack.
You are in counselling mode, John K. Someone comes to you and sayd, “I’m miserable and broken and can’t go on. Send me to someone who will try to make me straight.”
Do you reply:
(A) “I know you are in pain, but that’s only because of the oppression you’ve suffered from people with the horrible outlook of those running this so-called gay cure conference. So go away and reconstitute yourself a confident happy gay person. You are not to be allowed even to explore the possibility of change.”
(B) “I know you are in pain, and that’s because of the oppression you’ve suffered from people with the horrible outlook of those running this so-called gay cure conference, and it is very unlikely that anything can change you in the way you wish, and perhaps you should explore the possibilities of help and support in getting yourself together as a gay person. Still, if you are really convinced you want to try to change, here’s an address.”
C. “Get lost, vanish, you fool/village idiot/creep/sick fantasist/narcissist/thicko.” (Further abuse ad lib.)
D. None of the above.
We are seeing some examples of the muddled thinking that lies behind the idea that gay people can or should be “persuaded” to change their sexuality.
No one has been able to point to any disadvantages to homosexual relationships per se – apart from the fact that they cannot directly produce children, but the same would apply to anyone who chooses for any reason to be celibate, or to marry an infertile partner. Given that gay relationships are frequently just as long lasting, and loving as straight ones – despite the much more hostile conditions under which they have to operate, the whole idea that it is an illness is risible.
As for “morality” apart from the rather pointless and circular “because I / God says so” argument, they normally bring up bad behaviour which isn’t necessarily connected to gay sexuality at all. E.g. if you want to stay celibate till you meet Mr or Mrs “Right” that has nothing whatsoever to do with whether gay or straight relationships are better.
I think that this “Reprogramming” is a bit like plastic surgery. Is someone is unhappy because of their sexuality, isn’t that rather like wanting a more pleasing face, fewer wrinkles, a better head of hair, all of which help someone to fit in better – and I suspect far more people agonise over this than over their sexuality.
So perhaps the church should go out and offer Botox, hair transplants and nips and tucks so that people can be made happy by conforming to what society believes they should be.
What really angers me though, and what puts the lies to the pious platitudes, is that some religious believers show a total lack of respect for the love of which gay people show to one another, often over many years, and treat it as somehow inferior.
For most of us, love is the best that we have to give, and where that love is rejected as worthless the whole person is rejected.
That is why this whole gay reprogramming charade is not just anti gay, but anti human. If I were a Christian, I would be very worried indeed.
“Gender Dysphoria is a recognised medical condition. Homosexuality is not.”
Let us not be too deferential about what doctors do or do not “recognise”. There is a tendency to regard as a medical condition anything which is socially disapproved of. Kids whose natures don’t fit them for classroom learning are, these days, pronounced to have “attention deficit disorder” and medically treated. I know someone who has been “diagnosed” with the “disability” of autism; she says she just regards it as a different way of being. It was nice when the APA voted to take homosexuality off the list of disorders but, who knows, the time may come when they vote to put it back on again; after all, there was a time when homosexuality WAS a “recognised medical condition”. Beware the oppression that may come with medical labelling; do not be too blithe about the liberation that comes with relabelling.
A couple of points, Paul
(1) For homosexuality to be defined as an illness there would have to be some recognisable distress suffered by pretty much all gay people. (if it’s not universal then homosexuality clearly isn’t the problem) . It is hard to see where this could come from. To extend your point, believing in God or voting Tory might come to be defined as a medical disorder, but this kind of speculation gets us absolutely nowhere.
(2) If encouraging people to explore changes in their sexuality (always assuming that is even possible) is fine and dandy, then what about race? It’s perfectly possible to imagine that genetics will make it possible for people to assume the physical traits of another race. Given social attitudes, it is likely that some may wish to change their racial appearance. Should someone from a racial minority pat someone on the back and point them to the nearest clinic.
(3) All of those pedalling “reprogramming” sexuality, are to my knowledge, deeply hostile toward all gay relationships, however happy. Why would any self respecting gay person willing counsel another gay person to put themselves in their clutches? Common sense also suggests that there is a high risk that people subjected to “treatment” which goes to the heart of ones capacity to attach to human beings, is very dangerous indeed. The sort of “doctor” who says OK if you want I’ll try to make you, gay, or straight or bisexual, the choice is yours, simply doesn’t exist. If they did, and if there was any science behind it, your argument might just be worth entertaining.
As it is, this is clearly part of a broader movement to eliminate homosexual love. As such no self respecting homosexual should give it house room.
It’s curious that you imagine counselling to be multiple choice.
It’s curious that you can only stimulate debate but never engage in it your self.
I wonder why?
O dear . . . there is nothing human about you
I do not have debates with machines
Perhaps in a couple of decades when artifical intelligence it more advanced
Corrina, above, wrote: “It is clearly taught in the Bible that homosexual practice is a ‘sin’ – it grieves God’s heart and is outside of his will. However, it is also clearly taught that judgementalism, anger and heterosexual lust are sins. It is not one segment of society that are ‘sinners’, but all of mankind. Jesus does not define us like we define ourselves. He knows each person, their pain and their struggle individually. To him every person is so dearly loved, but so greatly broken. He died on the cross to take away the punishment for our sin, to bring us back to God, and to free us from whatever enslaves us.”
Corinna, all religious beliefs are voo-doo. Crap. Nonsense. You say you’ve been to a university. Well, that means you have the intelligence to work out that if there are 100s of religions upon the face of the earth and they all believe that they have the one and only “god”, and all their “gods” are different . . . then this god business is primitive nonsense which modern peoples, and big girls like you, ought to have outgrown.
Corinna, there are no spirits, no ghosts, no fairies, no elves, no imps, no gods. Nada. Awful terrifying thought, perhaps, for people to bloody weak to walk through life without crutches, but TRUE.
“Paul Brownsey” is a simpleton. Only a simpleton, seeking to parade itself as some kind of intellect, could whip up four such alternatives for the young gay or lesbian who has trouble accepting their intrinsic nature.
“Paul Brownsey” could not see the flaw in his option A, viz. “I know you are in pain, but that’s only because of the oppression you’ve suffered from people with the horrible outlook of those running this so-called gay cure conference. So go away and reconstitute yourself a confident happy gay person. You are not to be allowed even to explore the possibility of change.”
Silly immature little “Paul Brownsey” could not see when he wrote the above option that it could have ended “So let us put you in touch with a myriad of excellent professional support services which will assist you and your family in seeing that your homosexuality is no problem at all. There will be much change ahead but there are a great many caring professionals out there who will help you through it.”
Bugger off, “Paul Brownsey”, you’re brainless. Hear that? Brainless, mate.
Well said . . . Bravo
Corrina’s . . . use of the turn of phrase “unwanted homosexual feelings”!
So unoffensive, so civilised so nealty packaged . . . shall we unpack this euphemism
I’ve just been reading up on some of the cobblers that Nicolosi and co actually claim to belive. E.g. that it is (literally) impossible for a gay couple to stay faithful for more than 5 years.
When you read something that you know, for personal experience to be a lie, a fantasy, then you can guess that most of the rest of what they have to say is rubbish.
Yet this is the posin that they presumably want to point out at vulnerable people.
You do wonder.
. . . it contains me deeply that vulnerable poeple are being targeted
sorry typos . . .
. . . it concerns me deeply that vulnerable poeple are being targeted
“why are so many of you hiding behind pseudonyms?”
What difference does it make?
As for Corrina, you seem like you’d be a nice person if you hadn’t been indoctrinated. Your words, while sounding pleasant, are insidious. You have no idea of the sorts of mental anguish that can come from being denied the support and acceptance of your loved ones. If I ever met someone who treated one of my loved ones to such sugar-coated bigotry, I would let them know exactly what I think of bullies.
By the way, why do religious people seem to think that a god’s existence is enough reason to worship it? If the Christian god existed, I would let that bully know what I think of it, too. I’m interested in being a good person, not in saving myself, and as such I will not bow to the will of some sort of Hitler-in-the-sky.
Right on – Pumpkin Pie . . . Nazis Nazis Nazis
They think they can still exterminate us in the secret behind, closed doors; but this time its not the gas chambers it’s the therapists consulting room.
You know, at the risk of being too lenient, I feel I was perhaps a little too harsh on Corrina. While I stand by what I said about your comments being insidious, I just want to clarify that I believe you to be a cut above the hatemongers at this conference. They hide their prejudices behind religious ideals. You, on the other hand, genuinely don’t seem to have any hatred, just an obssessive compulsion to follow the word of your god. Therefore, your dangerous attitude is not entirely your fault.
Indeed, apart from the religious commandments, you seem like a nice person.
JohnK you say “They think they can still exterminate us in the secret behind, closed doors; but this time its not the gas chambers it’s the therapists consulting room.”
JohnK I take it you’ve seen the conference materials on zefrog.blogspot.com ?
“For security reasons please do keep this information confidential. We ask that you bring with you to the conference (i) a printed copy of this letter and (ii) some form of identification (e.g. driving licence, bank card) which you will need to show at the first of two registration desks.”
You’re bang on. Something’s got to be wrong about what these charlatans are peddling if they have a habit of such stringent screening out of dissenters. And I saw a post somewhere saying that all yesterday they had four big bodyguards on the door (as well as a bobby).
Geoff . . . thanks for that. . . WOW
What a secret Nazi regime they operate. . .
To all you homo haters who are reading these blogs . . .
We are opening up your concentration camps to reveal to the world how sick and perverted you really are.
And So Says All Of Me, ‘Me Old Cock Sparras’ give those sickies in that ‘Gay Cure Conferance’ HELL!
“In defence of conference – it is to help people with unwanted homosexual feelings.
If you don’t have unwanted homosexual feelings, then why should it bother you? Just get on with life. This conference is not homophobia.It’s an attempt to help people who for whatever reason are struggling with guilt and pain because of feelings that they don’t want.
Some people are happy being gay, some are not. They have a different experience of homosexuality than you, it doesn’t make them wrong.”
Corrina . . .
You speak of unwanted homosexual feelings as if they were abstract things?
If you kill a homosexual inside a person . . . what is there to stop you from killing a real homosexual person? Well, . . If you can treat the inner homosexual with the contempt that is need to get rid of them in the first place, I feel there is very little to stop you emotionally form killing a real homosexual person.
If you were not frightened of the persons homosexuality you would never be thinking of it as unwanted in the first place . . . it is only unwanted because its is unacceptable in your mind . . . and this is called homophobia.
. . . and you do this in the name of Jesus . . . Jesus who preached love and tolerance.
How perverse is that . . . its curious that you cannot see this?
You are very DESTRUCTIVE and SICK aren’t you Corrina
John K, good for you for attempting to knock Corrina’s totally blurred-up spectacles off her conk! Or to put it another way, don’t you just *know* that people like Corrina are driving through life with their windowscreens covered in an inch of ice. They’re friggin dangerous. They ought to be confined! LOL.
Corrina, you wrote: “This conference is not homophobia.It’s an attempt to help people who for whatever reason are struggling with guilt and pain because of feelings that they don’t want.”
Corrina, I am sure you try as best you can to be a good Christian. But stop and take a look at what you’ve written!
You wrote: “It’s an attempt to help people who for whatever reason are struggling with guilt and pain because of feelings that they don’t want.”
The above does not make ANY rational sense.
Let me unpack it for you (as any teacher or professor in logic would, in any philosophy department anywhere in the world).
1. Gay people have “feelings that they don’t want”.
2. They have these feelings “for whatever reason”.
3. These feelings cause “struggling with guilt and pain”.
4. “Reparative Therapy” helps.
This is what you stated, Corrina.
However, when your statement is dissected and it is put into the above sequential order, it becomes clear there is a lot of information being left out.
Your point “No. 2″ is VERY VERY IMPORTANT, Corrina: you cannot just swish by and get away with not going into “for whatever reason”. That is intellectually unacceptable. We cannot afford to be intellectually lazy.
So what ARE the reasons which your statement has not acknowledged in your Point No.2?
Corrina, the reason why some gay people have “feelings that they don’t want”, is because the attitude of unloving, unsupportive, parents and peers and certain other sections of society makes them very fearful indeed of carrying their identity with dignity. Homophobic bullies in many guises make some gay and lesbian people deeply frightened of accepting their sexual orientation. In particular, all the different voo-doo hocus-pocus made-up nonsense of the world’s many different religions are greatly responsible for making gay and lesbian people fearful of accepting their sexual orientation. And let us remember that some young gay and lesbian people are so frightened of carrying their intrinsic sexual identity with pride that they attempt suicide or succeed in committing suicide. And we must also remember that even the most well-adjusted gay or lesbian person still has to be careful in today’s world in certain places or at certain times, because of homophobia. You must have read about the regular knifings, stabbings, and beatings which gay and lesbian people are subjected to.
Consideration of your “Point No. 2″ obviously now explains the reality of your “Point No. 3″, namely that ‘These feelings cause “struggling with guilt and pain”.’ As we have seen by carefully examining your “Point No. 2″ it is NOT the homosexual “feelings” which cause the “struggling with guilt and pain”. No, it is the information missing in “Point No. 2″ which causes the guilt and pain, namely the homophobia, the bullying, the finger-pointing, and the stigma that is generally part-and-parcel of any of the world’s many different religions.
So now, Corrina, that we have acknowledged the reasons why some gay people have “feelings that they don’t want”, you should be able to see that the 4th part of your proposition, namely that ‘”Reparative Therapy” helps’ is a non-sequitur. To any honest thinking person it is unacceptable. (A non-sequitur is an inference or a conclusion which just does not follow from the premisses, i.e. the previous parts of the over-all statement.)
To make this all clear, let me give you an analogy.
What you said is like saying:
1. Some clever maths students have feelings they don’t want.
2. These students have these feelings “for whatever reason”.
3. These feelings cause “struggling with guilt and pain”.
4. Willing themselves to not like Maths & Science helps.
And then along come some people who run a business organization that has really got it in for Maths and those highly gifted students who are so good at Maths and they set up a Conference to help these “nerdy geeks” to will themselves NOT to be so gifted at the subject. Corinna heard about this conference and blithly said: “It’s an attempt to help people who for whatever reason are struggling with guilt and pain because of feelings that they don’t want.” For her it’s as simple as that. But as we have seen, she hasn’t examined things closely at all.
But now that Corrina has looked at things closely with regard to the plight of gay and lesbian people, she realises that she and NARTH and many religious groups need to reformulate their attitude, as follows:
1. Some gay people are unhappy being who they are.
2. They are unhappy because of frightening homophobia which has come at them from a number of different sources.
3. The homophobia makes them feel guilt and pain.
4. They need caring professional support until such time as they develop strategies to deal with all sources of homophobia and they can stand up and say, “I am what I am, and what I am needs no excuses”.
Corinna, there are many groups, including Christian groups, who do this valuable work of reaching out and finding those vulnerable young gay and lesbian people who need some assistance in learning to combat the awful, often unthinking, homophobia that continues unabated in our society today. Why don’t you join one and see what they’re like?
Phil P may I make a comment regarding your criticism of Corinna’s logic?
Your summary of her statements runs as follows:
You then attempt to substitute an innocuous and neutral pursuit of mathematical study with sexual activity. This is dishonest for you and everyone knows that unwanted pregnancies, abortions, paedophilia, sexually transmitted diseases- not to mention the misery caused through adultery, divorce and crimes of passion -are never the result of learning times tables or doing quadratic equations:-
Corinna said that gay people are unhappy for whatever reason; but you immediately claim that this is because of homophobia, never allowing the fact that a gay person might have these feelings irrespective of societal pressures:-
So if we apply your logic to psychopaths we have:
1. Psychopaths have feelings they don’t want (The good that they would do they don’t do and the evil that they would not do they do).
2. Psychopaths are not happy in their skins for any number of reasons, one of which may well be because they know that murder ends in personality disintegration and judgement
3. These feelings of guilt and fear cause torment
4. In order to take away these feelings of anxiety and torment they need assurance and acceptance from the rest of society that mass murder is just OK and part of parcel of their natures. Or as Popeye the Sailor Man said, “I yam what I yam.”
Phil it’s time to morph. All things are possible with God.