I live in Holland, by quite a lot of Americans considered a very immoral country (drugs, same-sex marriage, euthanasia) and we haven’t had that many mass murders lately. The last ones occurred during WW II, when we were occupied by people with strong convictions about wrong, right and how to deal with them.
I quite agree: those poor bigotted queer-bashers have to go armed to protect themselves from us
correlation causation: citation desperately needed unless he wants to look like an uneducated tosser
Mabye he should look up the history of hummanity mass murder, rape sex slaves and child abuse have all happened in the past and were a more common occurance. The lgbt rights movement has done nothing to cause these things because they already existed
Oh yeah and we are also responsible for the credit crunch, crap meals from Asda, soggy pasta, grafitti, asbestos, late trains …
This man is retarded.
This man has an obvious error in his logic. In the computer industry we call this error code ID10T
How utterly ridiculous. The point that is made by his ‘argument’ rests solely on his incapability to form an actual argument. It’s a simple matter of logic that, unfortunately, not everyone may consider when they hear this tripe.
Even if we consider the gay rights movement to lack morality (which, of course, I am in no way saying is the case, because it blatantly isn’t), his argument still doesn’t hold up.
Say it is immoral – what about cause and effect? A lack in morality could be the cause of the ‘sexual revolution’; or perhaps the forces behind the ‘sexual revolution’ cause a wider lack in morality. There is no clear basis on what is the cause and what is the effect. Furthermore, regardless even of which is the cause and effect, gun crime is mutually exclusive to gay rights.
Even if we could reasonably consider (which we can’t) that gun crime and the gay rights movement are both borne out of a wider societal issue that regards the dissolution of morals, that means they may both originate from the same issue but you can in NO WAY thus draw the conclusion that one causes the other!
I just can’t believe how many flaws are in this man’s argument. It’s kind of crap you’d expect to hear a usual bigot with no publicity say under the influence of alcohol. And, remember, his argument doesn’t hold up *even if* gay rights are deemed to be immoral – and there’s no point trying to engage with someone like this the thought that, actually, the gay rights movement is a force to bring equality to a section of society that is unfairly mistreated on the basis of religious doctrine – a doctrine so widespread that even people who claim not to be religious may have been brought up in a family that advocates these views for no conceivable reason.. 8-)
…Oh, I’ve just had an idea! Using the same logic that this man uses in his argument, consider what the outcome would be if we agree that the gay rights movement *is* moral. We can therefore deem that a lack of civil rights for our ‘community’ is immoral and if we thus change that matter, the ‘average morality’ of the country would increase and, simultaneously, gun crime will be eliminated.
So, all we need to do is convince people that being gay isn’t wrong and there’ll be no more gun crime! Oh wait, being gay isn’t wrong, but as I hope I’ve pointed out, that argument structure is flawed bullshit…
What a moron. Why is the preoccupation with sex so prevalent in these kinds? Do thy all have erectile dysfunction, or something?
And Mr. Peters wrongly associates morality with religious values… how wrong he is. Most nuts who toddle off and let off a a few from their pet Mauser at the nearest McDonalds usually believe they’re getting instruction from god or use so called religious values to account for their shooting spree.
Lets face it, 9/11 wasn’t caused by a bunch of “secularists”.
Forget religious morals…. the less religion, the more human values shine through.
I think you people seem to allow a certain ambiguity in his comments. The man is a fuckwit. Lack of morality may be the cause of a lot of things, but who specifically defines gay marriage as “immoral”?
When was the last time anyone whipped out their Smith & Wesson and a Civil Partnership Ceremony?
The man’s argument is so obviously flawed that I hope anybody can realise it. Even if we consider the gay rights movement to be immoral (which it obviously isn’t), his argument still doesn’t hold up. He confuses the idea of cause and effect so, in a society that is *apparently* experiencing moral degradation, it is the exact same argument and just as illogical for us to make the claim that the rise in gun crime is having a wider effect that is pushing the ‘immoral’ gay rights movement.
If anything is borne out of a problem with morals, they’re mutually exclusive and don’t cause or effect each other. Anyway, the fact is that there’s nothing immoral about gay rights – these people just believe it to be so on the basis of religious doctrine that has no conceivable place in the modern world..
What a vile excuse for a human.
More meaningless blathering out of a self-serving opportunist who has found a nice little earner paid for by religious idiots.
Robert Peters, It’s successive American Governments who are responsible for guns circulating amongst it’s citizens. The gun lobby in the US has always come out on top in all the frequent conferances they have on guns and gun crime. There are millions of murders in the US every year and it will remain so till some forward, thinking Administration gets a grip of things.
I would hope that anybody who reads this will see the glaring, fundamental flaws in his argument – alas, I’m sure people will glaze it and believe willingly.
Even if we take the gay rights movement to be immoral (which it obviously isn’t), his logic is flawed. He misses the simple case of cause and effect. Pretending gay people are wrong, with his method of thinking, I could easily say that the rise in gun crime (and therefore society’s moral degradation) has led to support for immoral gay rights.
Utterly stupid. In fact, still using the same logic, if we can get everyone to realise that there’s nothing wrong with homosexuality, we could actually say: a lack of civil rights for the gay community is inherent immoral, so if we grant proper rights, the ‘average morality’ of the country will increase and we will alleviate (if not eliminate) gun crime – and every other issue that stems from the nation’s mysterious lack of morals!
Even if they were both wrong, they may arise from a similar issue, but they’re mutually exclusive and neither one causes the other – idiot. And, of course, we need to stress time and time again that these arguments are also wrong because there’s nothing wrong with homosexuality – it’s a matter of social prejudice rooted in society’s conscious due to religious doctrine that is so ingrained in society that these views are adhered to be irreligious people for no conceivable reason other than proximity and ‘tradition’.. blah blah!
Someone must help this man find an apartment, because living under rock is not comfortable!
I really don’t like his comments because he is clearly saying that gays are going to get gunned down for wanting what every heterosexual married couple has in the US “the right to marry”. He is shifting the blame from the perps onto gays for wanting equality. Finally, I don’t like the fact that is linking gays to pedophilia and pornography. He is clearly all over the place and not making a lot of sense. I would think that the president of a Shmorality association would find it immoral to kill.
As mentioned above, correlation has nothing to do with causation, despite many people thinking it does. My reaction when I read this article was to laugh, its so laughable that this fool has managed to publicly humiliate himself by exposing his total ignorance and thick mind to the press.
I honestly thought this was some kind of joke. Realising it’s not, I have no idea where to start. Do these people have some kind of sexual obsession or something?
What truly bizarre nonsense! Has this guy never had any education on research methods? Correlation causation is usually the first lesson, with the classic example of the more ice cream that is sold, the more violent crimes occur – therefore ice cream causes mass murder (which of course is doesn’t, both just happen to be associated with hot weather). But blaming gun crime on gay marriage is a spectacular leap, particularly seeing as the States which legalised gay marriage are not particularly associated with high rates of gun crimes. Certainly not aware of “da hood” in Vermont or Massachusetts!
Not only that, but there is (as ever) no evidence to suggest his claims regarding STDs etc are true – in fact, I recall a study in Norway which was conducted investigating the sexual health of the LGB community following the introduction of same-sex partnerships which found that STD rates fell in this community, likely due to the acceptance of same sex relationships and more LGB people practicing monogamy as a result.
Another epic fail from a so-called “social scientist”
What a fuckwit
I’m quite sure the rate of murders has been pretty steady for a very long time.
You may as well say that since crime has increased since the formation of his organisation, they must be to blame. Same ridiculous logic.
With logic like his, you may as well say that since crime has increased since the formation of his organisation, or the propagation of the “moral majority”, they are responsible for the increase.
Sorry about duplicate comment, got fooled by this weird comment system into thinking it had failed to post.
I wonder what else the gay rights movement is responsible for. Climate change? Over-population? Bush fires?
Apparently the gay rights movement also caused the extinction of the dinosaurs ;)
…And Har Davids decimates Robert Peters’s entire argument in one fell swoop. Weirdo fundamentalists like Peters never look outside of their own country, because they’re always narrow-minded, jingoistic nationalists.
One thing that always confuses me about this “declining morality” thing – whether it’s an argument about homosexuality or gun crime, whether it’s put forward by Christians or secularists – is how anybody can possibly think most Western countries are LESS moral now than they were in previous decades. There’s still a long way to go, but we’ve made big steps in the fight for equality. As far as I’m concerned, the fact that ethnic minorities are allowed to ride at the front of the bus is a teensy bit more important than the fact that neighbours keep to themselves more these days.
There has indeed been a great dive in conscience, ethics, and morality but this has been due to death of the Christian “God”, not the granting of gay and lesbian rights. (Unfortunately conscience and morality amongst those who adore the Muslim god is still extremely strong.) And this great dive conscience, ethics, and morality in the West has indeed led to a rise in depravity, including the use of guns. What we need in the west is the reinstatement of morality – but without any kind of religious hocus-pocus. Humanism is the answer. Humanism is morality, a code of right and wrong devised by humans for humans without any need to invent or believe in a god.
This cretinous thinker needs his brain washed and cleaned of religious nonsense, and bigotry and phobia against gays and lesbians, and the installation of belief in an ethical system which is entirely secular.
So many of these Christians (and other religious persons) are so astoundingly SIMPLE and naive in their thinking. They have no concept of rational logic.
By his ridiculous logic, one can just as reasonably claim that the rise in gun crime has led to moral degradation that has supported the supposedly immoral gay rights movement. Even if we assume gay rights are immoral (which they aren’t), his logic doesn’t hold up.
Furthermore, if we were to take his argument structure and instead persuade the readers that gay rights are a good thing, we can argue that a lack of civil rights for the community is ‘immoral’ and, therefore, if this is rectified, the national ‘morality’ will increase, leading to an obviously linked decrease in gun crime.
*even if* homosexuality was wrong and *even if* it was borne out of moral degradation and *even if* it was rooted in the same cause as gun crime, the two issues would still be mutually exclusive! Cause and effect! I hope all readers realise just how logically flawed his argument is.
Gay marriage leads to paedophilia and STDs? Is this idiot for real?
Maybe Robert Peters is yearning for a return to the ‘Good Ole Days’ of Mom, Apple Pie and the American Civil War…
There sure was lots of morality and religion to go around back then. No nasty TV, Movies, Internet, or Homo-SEX-uals to spoil all the neighborliness…
Oh! But wait!…didn’t hundreds of thousands of Americans blow each other to Kingdom Come with – what was it again? – oh yes, GUNS!!!
Um – sorry for being the social scientific geek here – but this guy is confusing ‘indirect proportion’ (i.e. causal link) with association
yes – there may be an association – but there are statistical associations between a lot of totally unrelated things – very poor thinking I’m afraid – almost not worthy of comment.
Lies from the religious wrong just keep coming, don’t they? How any sane person can link gun crime to gay rights is beyond me. Oh yeah, Robert Peters is insane–let’s make that bats**t insane.
Guns dont kill people. People kill people. This has no factual statement in anything he says. I understand that alot of people dont like guns, but being a gun owning gay person myself I really thing this man is way off base.
he means to say proportional not inversely proportional, or am I wrong?
he says: “It is my intention to point out that the success of the sexual revolution is inversely proportional to the decline in morality; and it is the decline of morality that is the underlying cause of our modern day epidemic of mass murders.”.
if that was true then as the sexual revolution succeeds (increase A = sexual revolution successes) the decline of morality decreases (decrease B, B = decline of morality), which would mean that morality is enhanced.
this guy is a dick wad.
This is an abuse of a syllogistic argument, which is why many syllogistic arguments fail under philosophical scrutiny. The format of syllogistic arguments is A has characteristics of B. B has characteristics of C. Therefore A=C. In this case “gun crime is on the rise. Gay rights are on the rise. Therefore gay rights caused the guncrime”. Go to the bottom of the debating class that man.
Maybe this guy should sit on his ass and stop talking out of it?
Well using Robert Peters logical thought process, I offer some alternative, tongue in cheek, views on this epidemic of gun crime.
I blame the increase on gun crime to the increase in people wanting more materialistic things which are becoming harder and harder to produce due to the rise in the human population. In other words, it is all those breeders over populating the plant that are the problem – therefore it is the fault of the heterosexuals.
Or maybe, in the UK, it is due to the gang culture of the dispossesed youth. The majority of these gangs, and the people doing and getting shot, are black so therefore black people are more dangerous and should all be sent home where there only weapon would be a stick.
And in America I am sure that there is some causal link between the nations right to a gun, dating back to their lawless days when it may have been necessary, and the ability for mentally unstable to gain access to guns to go on mass killing sprees – in this scenario it is the American’s who are responsible for the increase in gun crime.
I am sure, given time I could come up with a link between the disappearance of bees to the increase in gun crime but everytime I read what this man seems to honestly think I get a fit of the giggles and can’t see as my eyes start to water.
Gun crime and organised crime, is down to Greed, fear, bigotry and hatred, not sexual freedom! We’ve been blamed for the extreme weather conditions, gun crime, the breaking up of family, decline of public morality. I’m amazed we find the time for sex, let alone anything else. where do these WA**ERS get their ideas from?
This guy is an arsehole on afterburner. Blaming the victims is the oldest play in the fascist play-book. He needs to take a Summer’s Eve ™ and have a LONG lie-down .
All of these Pink News “Comment sections” are so rich and fascinating and so much excellent effort and thought is being put into them. But once the stories slip down the page and then disappear onto hidden pages, who sees (or can find) all of these comments? Are these “Comment sections” findable by way of the Search Engines, like Google etc?
If not, then what we need is a permanent reliable blog, so all this input will not be wasted.
He he .. yeah coz here in fair Sweden we get all those gun-toting maniacs who kill everyone all the time. Err .. wait a minute that’s Texas I’m thinking about. Nope .. seems gay-rights hasn’t killed anyone here lately. There are some straight men who rape young girls and a couple of priests accused of sexual harrasment but I think that’s it.
Gay-rights increasing gun-crimes? Can’t really see it myself.
(Fitting that the SPAM-code this time is “112 doubting”)
Paul – It reminds me of the false statistical analysis that more people die in hospitals than anywhere else, therefore hospitals must be dangerous and should all be closed down.
A slight variant on this idea is that more people die within one mile of their home than anywhere else, therefore homes are dangerous. Naturally more people die within a mile of their homes than anywhere else, just figure out where people spend the most time on the average day and there’s at least half a day spent at home, during which you could easily pop your clogs from any number of natural or accidental causes.
As Mark Twain said, there are lies, darned lies and statistics.
I thought this was a joke too… good grief..
How amusing! What next? Blaming gays for the population explosion on the planet?
This guy doesn’t deserve serious attention, only ridicule. He’ll probably fall foul of the same outcome as that nutty American preacher who got outed by the rent boy :-)
Using this “person’s” logic.
1. The “Space Race” started in 1957.
2. I was born in 1957.
Ergo…. I started the Space Race…
You may all form an orderly queue to thank me (donations accepted)…
A country that famously boasted of a bank offering a free gun, when you open account; with the slogan “More bang for your buck” . . . what more can I say.
OK! Anyone want to blame us for the Swine Flu as well????? Stupid idiot!
. . . Why encourge more gun ownership when you already have an out of control gun crime problem . . . Is this not a little . . .IDIOTIC
Maybe the gay rights movement will cause the extinction of conservative churches.
Their buildings will become museums to teach future generations about how God became a God of Hate for so many christians and others,
Perhaps we ought to go back to slavery, which was justified as per the bible. Except we’ll take these homophobic freaks and make them the slaves, and big black macho men their masters.
It would make an interesting scene. And shut these nut cases up