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Cardinal Keith O’Brien: SNP gay reforms are ‘misguided and inappropriate’

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  1. Oh really… Just this weekend, another catholic bishop has resigned in Ireland over yet another child abuse scandal.

    The overwhelming evidence is, children could are much more likely to be at risk when under the ‘guidance’ or ‘protection’ of a Roman Catholic cleric.

    And worse, they have known about this for years, and shuffled Catholic priest sex predators around from one parish to the next, and tried to pay sex abuse victims to keep them quiet.

  2. How much lazy jounalism is there is this article? Firstly, gay couples in scotland do not have the right to “marry”, they have civil partnerships just like the rest of the UK. Also he’s the Arch bishop of St Andrews and Edinburgh, not St Andrew. its a town, not a saint…

  3. Adrian, you took the words right out of my mouth. It is ridiculous that an peodophile organisation which disgieses itself as a ‘religion’ has any room at all talk to about whats best for children. It hypercritical and insulting to all the children who the ‘church’ openly and freely abuse day in, day out. How dare he make that statement.

  4. What an evil,ignorant, bigoted man O’Brien is. From where does he get his so-called information? – 2% of the population is gay and gay relationships are inherently unstable!
    One bit of good news is that an American Federal court has recently given permission for the Vatican to be sued – despite its claims of immunity as a state – in relation to the sexual abuse of children by its priests. A strong fight against Roman Catholicism and other bigoted religious groups – Christian fundamentalists and Islamists – must be maintained.

  5. Robert, ex-pat Brit 9 Mar 2009, 12:53pm

    Just who do these Roman cultists think they are? The majority of them don’t have sexual relationships with men or women except for its millenia long tradition of molestation and paedophilia, and here they are making asinine and derogatory statements about what constitutes a family and what’s best for a child. The socalled “instability” of gay relationships can be attributed ot the fact that society, fueled by religious cults, are the culprits for causing such instability because they’ve opposed our right to marry and form legally recognised relationships until recently.

    Andrew T, you’re right. No gay person is allowed to marry in Scotland or the rest of the UK, in other words, we are banned from doing so. Lets hope that changes and perhaps this moron O’Brien will shutup altogether. With Sweden abandoning civil unions for marriage come May joining the more progressive group of six nations that have full equality, this is evidence enough that the tide is turning in our favour, slowly but surely. I think it is inevitable.

  6. Simon Murphy 9 Mar 2009, 12:59pm

    Yet another facist pig promoting hatred and intolerance. Why do religious people hate children so much I wonder?

  7. Johans Rigleman 9 Mar 2009, 12:59pm

    “…claiming they would put vulnerable children at risk.” This idiot needs to realize not everyone is a pedophile like himself. The biggest vulnerability children face, is from the pedophiles in the Catholic Church.

  8. I don’t think this group of perverted elderly socially deprived men are in any position to dictate.

  9. and who is really surprised at what this biggoted, sexually-frustrated old bitch says – same old, same old.

    The RCC is so involved with f—–g people’s lives up they don’t realise that the majority don’t care what they think, and that it is only misguided respect that keeps our secular politicians sweet on them (the religious politicians will continue to kiss up until it’s an electoral liability!)

  10. George Broadhead 9 Mar 2009, 1:46pm

    Given the never-ending hostilty shown by the Roman Catholic Church to LGBT people, why do those who are themselves Catholic persist in giving it their financial, moral and practical support?

    Surely they should leave with their dignity intact and ensure that their fellow Catholics understand why they have done so.

    The continued defamatory statements coming from Catholic sources affect all LGBT people, religious or not and they are widely reported.

    They add credence to the idea that it is perfectly alright to despise people because of their sexual orientation, and they legitimise more extreme forms of persecution.

    How any self-respecting LGBT person can continue to support an institution that so patently wishes to hurt them is beyond comprehension.

  11. ritthichai 9 Mar 2009, 2:34pm

    It’s all been said above – Cardinal O’Bien and his like deserve to be isolated from civilized society

  12. 2% of the population gay? Is this twit just making this stuff up? 2% barely covers just the ones that go to gay bars for heavens sake….

    Lets compare that figure to how many priests are paedophiles in the catholic church.

  13. I find it’s hilarious but sadly frightening in a way that a man in a frock with little or no experience of life other than in a religious order feels he is qualified to discuss issues of child care. Anyway what about the still unresolved issues that paedophile priests have brought the church into disrepute?

  14. I believe most Scots, including RCs, will find O’Brien and his ilk dabbling in politics much more ‘misguided and inappropriate’.

    Scotland is a representative democracy and Parliament, whether at London or Edinburgh, will have the final say, not Rome.

    All the best.

  15. Louis-James Gwynne 9 Mar 2009, 3:48pm

    I can’t help but laugh at the Catholic Church, I do pity them.
    Local government should spend more time investigation local Churches as it’s these very places that are a threat to children. I would be intrigued to find out if these so called preachers are CRB or Pova checked before being allowed access vulnerable children? As I believe all people who want to adopt or foster have to go through rigorous interviews, workshops, health clearances and checks before being allowed any access to help unwanted/abused children.
    I am discussed that this religious nonsense is exposed through the media. And yet these people are never prosecuted for stigmatising and discriminating against gay, lesbian and transsexual people.

  16. Mark Satterthwaite 9 Mar 2009, 3:51pm

    When will people wake up and see that this church has been on the wrong side of issues throughout its history. With women, blacks, Jews being on their ignore list at different times it is time to see this organization for the hateful, discriminatory policies that it pushes.

  17. I think people are wakening up Mark – but not fast enough.

    In time people will look back at the churches and wonder exactly why they held peoples loyalty for so long when they :-

    * were strongly against birth control even when the population of the world was expanding at an unsustainable rate,
    *advocated a policy that condoms helped spread AIDs rather then help prevent it
    * were resolutely against a woman’s right to terminate a pregnancy irrespective of the circumstances of that pregnancy,
    * and lately have come out against assisted suicide and against a person’s right to choose a dignified exit.

    I could go on!

  18. Where did the cardinal get a figure of 2%. Is this the Vatican’s official figure, or did he get the figure from a psychology publication. It it was the latter, is he acknowledging that (the non-bigoted) psychologists are right that sexual orientation is not something people choose? If he believes sexual orientation is a choice, how does he know that 2% of the population will “choose” it? Can we predict scientifically exactly how many “sinners” there are in our midst? What is the percentage of adulterers we can expect? How about the percentage of liars, murderers and fraudsters? If we know up front how many people will engage in such activities in each generation, we can know exactly how many police to assign to each category. The old appeal-to-the-majority argument makes me sick. It is not logical per se. Majorities have often done terrible things to minorities, or has he forgotten the mutually reciprocated prosecution of Catholics and Protestants, depending often on who was in the majority?

  19. J Mathews 9 Mar 2009, 6:42pm

    Considering the huge amount of Paedophilia that has been seen within the Catholic church, is it not time for a law banning catholics from adopting? Surely we need to protect children from being raised in an environment where paedophilia is so rampant.

    I don’t dislike catholics, you understand, I just dislike catholic ‘acts’. That is I love the sinner and hate the sin. We need to show catholics our love, and help to show them that paedophilia is just plain wrong

  20. If you want to put vulnerable children at risk, let them have contact with Catholic priests

  21. Cardinal O’Brien says allowing same-sex couples would put vulbernable children at risk. If that is the case, then how does he explain the fact that Baby P and toddler Brandon Muir both died a violent death at the hands of their mother and male partner, both of whom are in a hetrosexual relationship – the very thing that Cardinal O’Brien so strongly believe in.

    Answers on the back of a postcard, please……

  22. Robert, ex-pat Brit 9 Mar 2009, 6:53pm

    George and Will, the thing is, religion is a choice, a chosen lifestyle. Ours is not, nor is it a lifestyle either. The RC cult is notorious for having an extremely sexually repressed clergy which explains why for millenia, paedophilia has had a long tradition and has survived and continues to this day. These men know nothing of relationships, sex, everyday life and are hardly in a position to pass moral judgment on others. It has a lot of its own house cleaning to do and it should stop meddling in the affairs of state and the political process altogether, that goes for all of the cults which is what they are.

    Where he gets 2% is questionable indeed. It is estimated there are more than 3 million known gay people in the UK. My gut feeling tells me its far more because many are still in the closet and would never divulge their orientation in a census for fear of discovery or reprisal. There are many men in hetero marriages who are gay as well as the so called bisexuals who are not among the statistics. I remember several years ago, a female French politician once stated that she believed that more than twenty-five percent of British males are gay. It caused furor of course, but I wouldn’t mind betting that figure is nearer the mark.

  23. Pope Benedict XVI has expressed his “shame” over child sex abuse by Catholic clergymen in Australia and called for those responsible for the “evil” to be brought to justice.

    The Pope made his comments during a mass to dedicate a new altar at Sydney’s St Mary’s Cathedral.

    “Here I would like to pause to acknowledge the shame which we have all felt as a result of the sexual abuse of minors by some clergy and religious in this country,” he said.

    i think his christmas speech to the world topped it all..

    Benedict XVI, the Catholic leader suggested homosexuality was as much a threat to the survival of the human race as climate change.

    so what are some of his clergymen a threat to then i think we all know that one only to well!.

    Here,Here Adrian.

  24. Regardless of what the R.C. church says, I don’t want foster
    youngsters living with homosexuals for the following reasons.

    Some statistics about the Homosexual lifestyle:

    One study reports that the average homosexual has between 20 and 106 partners per year. The average heterosexual has 8 partners in a lifetime.

    Homosexuals account for 3-4% of all gonorrhea cases, 60% of all syphilis cases, and 17% of all hospital admissions (other than for STDs) in the United States . They make up only 1-2% of the population.

    Homosexuals live unhealthy lifestyles, and have historically accounted for the bulk of syphilis, gonorrhea, Hepatitis B, the “gay bowel syndrome” (which attacks the intestinal tract), tuberculosis and cytomegalovirus .

    73% of psychiatrists say homosexuals are less happy than the average person, and of those psychiatrists, 70% say that the unhappiness is NOT due to social stigmatization.

    25-33% of homosexuals and lesbians are alcoholics .

    Of homosexuals questioned in one study reports that 43% admit to 500 or more partners in a lifetime, 28% admit to 1000 or more in a lifetime, and of these people, 79% say that half of those partners are total strangers, and 70% of those sexual contacts are one night stands (or, as one homosexual admits in the film “The Castro”, one minute stands) . Also, it is a favorite past-time of many homosexuals to go to “cruisy areas” and have anonymous sex.

    78% of homosexuals are affected by STDs

    Judge John Martaugh, chief magistrate of the New York City Criminal Court has said, “Homosexuals account for half the murders in large cities” .

    Captain William Riddle of the Los Angeles Police says, “30,000 sexually abused children in Los Angeles were victims of homosexuals” .

    50% of suicides can be attributed to homosexuals .

    Dr. Daniel Capron, a practicing psychiatrist, says, “Homosexuality by definition is not healthy and wholesome. The homosexual person, at best, will be unhappier and more unfulfilled than the sexually normal person” . For other psychiatrists who believe that homosexuality is wrong, please see National Association for Research and Therapy of Homosexuality.

    Homosexuals were responsible for spreading AIDS in the United States, and then raised up violent groups like Act Up and Ground Zero to complain about it. Even today, homosexuals account for well over 50% of the AIDS cases in the United States, which is quite a large number considering that they account for only 1-2% of the population.

    Homosexuals account for a disproportionate number of hepatitis cases: 70-80% in San Francisco, 29% in Denver, 66% in New York City, 56% in Toronto, 42% in Montreal, and 26% in Melbourne .

    37% of homosexuals engage in sadomasochism, which accounts for many accidental deaths. In San Francisco, classes were held to teach homosexuals how to not kill their partners during sadomasochism .

    41% of homosexuals say they have had sex with strangers in public restrooms, 60% say they have had sex with strangers in bathhouses, and 64% of these encounters have involved the use of illegal drugs .

    Depending on the city, 39-59% of homosexuals are infected with intestinal parasites like worms, flukes and amoebae, which is common in filthy third world countries .

    The median age of death of homosexuals is 42 (only 9% live past age 65). This drops to 39 if the cause of death is AIDS. The median age of death of a married heterosexual man is 75 (8).
    The median age of death of lesbians is 45 (only 24% live past age 65). The median age of death of a married heterosexual woman is 79 .
    50% of the calls to a hotline to report “queer bashing” involved domestic violence (i.e., homosexuals beating up other homosexuals) .
    There is a notable homosexual group, consisting of thousands of members, known as the North American Man and Boy Love Association ( NAMBLA). This is a child molesting homosexual group whose cry is “SEX BEFORE 8 BEFORE IT’S TOO LATE.” This group can be seen marching in most major homosexual parades across the United States.

    Homosexuals commit more than 33% of all reported child molestations in the United States, which, assuming homosexuals make up 2% of the population, means that 1 in 20 homosexuals is a child molestor, while 1 in 490 heterosexuals is a child molestor .
    73% of all homosexuals have had sex with boys under 19 years of age.

    Many homosexuals admit that they are pedophiles: “The love between men and boys is at the foundation of homosexuality” .
    Because homosexuals can’t reproduce naturally, they resort to recruiting children. Homosexuals can be heard chanting “TEN PERCENT IS NOT ENOUGH, RECRUIT, RECRUIT, RECRUIT” in their homosexual parades. A group called the “Lesbian Avengers” prides itself on trying to recruit young girls. They print “WE RECRUIT” on their literature. Some other homosexuals aren’t as overt about this, but rather try to infiltrate society and get into positions where they will have access to the malleable minds of young children (e.g., the clergy, teachers, Boy Scout leaders, etc.) . See the DC Lesbian Avengers web page, and DC Lesbian Avengers Press Release, where they threaten to recruit little boys and girls. Also, see AFA Action Alert. Some statistics about the Homosexual lifestyle:

    One study reports that the average homosexual has between 20 and 106 partners per year (6). The average heterosexual has 8 partners in a lifetime.

    Homosexuals account for 3-4% of all gonorrhea cases, 60% of all syphilis cases, and 17% of all hospital admissions (other than for STDs) in the United States (5). They make up only 1-2% of the population.

    Homosexuals live unhealthy lifestyles, and have historically accounted for the bulk of syphilis, gonorrhea, Hepatitis B, the “gay bowel syndrome” (which attacks the intestinal tract), tuberculosis and cytomegalovirus .

    73% of psychiatrists say homosexuals are less happy than the average person, and of those psychiatrists, 70% say that the unhappiness is NOT due to social stigmatization.
    25-33% of homosexuals and lesbians are alcoholics (11).
    Of homosexuals questioned in one study reports that 43% admit to 500 or more partners in a lifetime, 28% admit to 1000 or more in a lifetime, and of these people, 79% say that half of those partners are total strangers, and 70% of those sexual contacts are one night stands (or, as one homosexual admits in the film “The Castro”, one minute stands) (3). Also, it is a favorite past-time of many homosexuals to go to “cruisy areas” and have anonymous sex.

    78% of homosexuals are affected by STDs

    Judge John Martaugh, chief magistrate of the New York City Criminal Court has said, “Homosexuals account for half the murders in large cities” .
    Captain William Riddle of the Los Angeles Police says, “30,000 sexually abused children in Los Angeles were victims of homosexuals” .

    50% of suicides can be attributed to homosexuals.

    Dr. Daniel Capron, a practicing psychiatrist, says, “Homosexuality by definition is not healthy and wholesome. The homosexual person, at best, will be unhappier and more unfulfilled than the sexually normal person” . For other psychiatrists who believe that homosexuality is wrong, please see National Association for Research and Therapy of Homosexuality.

    Homosexuals were responsible for spreading AIDS in the United States, and then raised up violent groups like Act Up and Ground Zero to complain about it. Even today, homosexuals account for well over 50% of the AIDS cases in the United States, which is quite a large number considering that they account for only 1-2% of the population.

    Homosexuals account for a disproportionate number of hepatitis cases: 70-80% in San Francisco, 29% in Denver, 66% in New York City, 56% in Toronto, 42% in Montreal, and 26% in Melbourne .

    37% of homosexuals engage in sadomasochism, which accounts for many accidental deaths. In San Francisco, classes were held to teach homosexuals how to not kill their partners during sadomasochism .

    41% of homosexuals say they have had sex with strangers in public restrooms, 60% say they have had sex with strangers in bathhouses, and 64% of these encounters have involved the use of illegal drugs .
    Depending on the city, 39-59% of homosexuals are infected with intestinal parasites like worms, flukes and amoebae, which is common in filthy third world countries

    The median age of death of homosexuals is 42 (only 9% live past age 65). This drops to 39 if the cause of death is AIDS. The median age of death of a married heterosexual man is 75.

    The median age of death of lesbians is 45 (only 24% live past age 65). The median age of death of a married heterosexual woman is 79

    Homosexuals are 100 times more likely to be murdered (usually by another homosexual) than the average person, 25 times more likely to commit suicide, and 19 times more likely to die in a traffic accident.

    21% of lesbians die of murder, suicide or traffic accident, which is at a rate of 534 times higher than the number of white heterosexual females aged 25-44 who die of these things.
    50% of the calls to a hotline to report “queer bashing” involved domestic violence (i.e., homosexuals beating up other homosexuals)
    .
    About 50% of the women on death row are lesbians ). Homosexuals prey on children.

    33% of homosexuals ADMIT to minor/adult sex.
    There is a notable homosexual group, consisting of thousands of members, known as the North American Man and Boy Love Association ( NAMBLA). This is a child molesting homosexual group whose cry is “SEX BEFORE 8 BEFORE IT’S TOO LATE.” This group can be seen marching in most major homosexual parades across the United States.

    Homosexuals commit more than 33% of all reported child molestations in the United States, which, assuming homosexuals make up 2% of the population, means that 1 in 20 homosexuals is a child molestor, while 1 in 490 heterosexuals is a child molestor .
    73% of all homosexuals have had sex with boys under 19 years of age.

    Because homosexuals can’t reproduce naturally, they resort to recruiting children. Homosexuals can be heard chanting “TEN PERCENT IS NOT ENOUGH, RECRUIT, RECRUIT, RECRUIT” in their homosexual parades. A group called the “Lesbian Avengers” prides itself on trying to recruit young girls. They print “WE RECRUIT” on their literature. Some other homosexuals aren’t as overt about this, but rather try to infiltrate society and get into positions where they will have access to the malleable minds of young children (e.g., the clergy, teachers, Boy Scout leaders, etc.) . See the DC Lesbian Avengers web page, and DC Lesbian Avengers Press Release, where they threaten to recruit little boys and girls. Also, see AFA Action Alert.

    If you can disprove these figures, please do so, but until then
    you don’t deserve to take care of our youngsters

  25. Marquise of O. 9 Mar 2009, 7:45pm

    It looks like someone needs to put Catholics up for adoption. They need a new religion that doesn’t preach hate and abuse of other people.

    “Less than two percent of the population is homosexual,” says O’Brien. Then what are you worrying about? If I were a leader of a religion, I’d be more worried that people keep leaving the church and seeking (surprise surprise) other religions. We’re probably going to find out two months from now that O’Brien has been involved in immoral activities and all this rhetoric is a cover-up.

  26. Hank, the ghost of Harvey Milk wants to recruit you.;)

    Trolls belong in fairy tales, not on websites.

  27. Hank’s medication has run out again.

  28. Mihangel apYrs 9 Mar 2009, 9:14pm

    the you for that exposition Hank: are you willing to declare your religious affiliations? And proper citations would be nice (including relevant political and religious affiliations).

  29. Har Davids 9 Mar 2009, 9:31pm

    A little while ago I read an article in the German magazine “Der Spiegel” about a children who ‘lived’ at convents in Germany after WW II. I don’t know if there’s an English translation around, but it was more of horror story then anything else believe me. Add some child abuse by priests, aversion of the use of condoms, the recent excommunication of the mother of a raped and pregnant 9 year old girl and lots of other stuff, and you can only come to the conclusion that the only thing you have to do is IGNORE these bigots.

  30. I guess the Scottish Catholic Church doesn’t want to compete fairly for the youngsters they need as pedophiles extraordinaire.

  31. Hank, first rule of using statistics – use citations so that other can check the methodology of your sources. I can tell straight off that quite a few of the “facts” you quote come from highly discredited sources, or are hugely out of date. I mean, c’mon NAMBLA? They were shunned from the gay community very early on in the gay rights movement of the 70s, I don’t think they even exist now.

    Percentages can be used to prove anything. 58% of people know that…

  32. There are many Catholics who sit in the pews and lap up this sort of nonsense. one thing we should all do is challenge (hard) any church going Catholic who claims to be a Mass-goer but not to agree with the bigotry that the church puts out (such as this latest). Such people need to demonstrate that they are not homophobes by leaving the church. Otherwise they are nauseous hypocrites.

    let’s not give Catholics in the pew an easy time!

  33. Wim from the Netherlands 9 Mar 2009, 11:14pm

    Christians need to love, not to hate.

  34. The church should be embarrassed, such obvious hate. Labelling homosexual couples in such a way points to clear prejudice.

    The world is full of good and bad people, gay or straight. The fact is that adoption is pretty strictly regulated, so any couple will be vetted well.

    I suspect what the church really fear is a type of gay mainstreaming ‘creep’ i.e. normalising of gay people as regular people…. sad.

  35. Hank has just parroted – cut and pasted – completely skewed research by an American crank called Paul Cameron, who was expelled from the APA. His organisation is listed as a hate group. For example, the research on ‘gays life expectancy is 42′ was based on newspaper obituaries, almost entirely of Aids victims in the late 80s.

    The fact is, whether Hank likes it or not, gay people are adopting children, and children are doing very well. Get used to it, and stop interfering in other people’s affairs.

    Also, people who are expert on the matter, unlike whacko religious nutcases like Hank, say that paedophilia and homosexuality have nothing to do with each other.

  36. References for my comment on my Homosexual Lifestyle:

    References

    (1) Advocate, 1985.
    (2) Bayer, R. Homosexuality and American Psychiatry.
    (3) Bell, A. and Weinberg, M. Homosexualities: a Study of Diversity Among Men and Women. New York: Simon & Schuster, 1978.
    (4) Cameron et. al. ISIS National Random Sexuality Survey. Nebraska Med. Journal, 1985, 70, pp. 292-299.
    (5) “Changes in Sexual Behavior and Incidence of Gonorrhea.” Lancet, April 25, 1987.
    (6) Corey, L. and Holmes, K. “Sexual Transmission of Hepatitis A in Homosexual Men.” New England J. Med., 1980, pp. 435-38.
    (7) Family Research Institute, Lincoln, NE.
    (8) Fields, Dr. E. “Is Homosexual Activity Normal?” Marietta, GA.
    (9) Jay and Young. The Gay Report. Summit Books, 1979, p. 275.
    (10) Kaifetz, J. “Homosexual Rights Are Concern for Some,” Post-Tribune, 18 December 1992.
    (11) Kus, R. “Alcoholics Anonymous and Gay America.” Medical Journal of Homosexuality, 1987, 14(2), p. 254.
    (12) Lesbian News, January 1994.
    (13) Lief, H. Sexual Survey Number 4: Current Thinking on Homosexuality, Medical Aspects of Human Sexuality, 1977, pp. 110-11.
    (14) Manlight, G. et. al. “Chronic Immune Stimulation By Sperm Alloantigens.” J. American Med. Assn., 1984, 251(2), pp. 237-438.
    (15) Morton-Hunt Study for Playboy
    (16) MsKusick, L. et. al. “AIDS and Sexual Behavior Reported By Gay Men in San Francisco.” Am. J. Pub. Health, 1985, 75, pp. 493-96.
    (17) Newsweek, February 1993.
    (18) Newsweek, 4 October 1993.
    (19) Psychological Reports, 1986, 58, pp. 327-37.
    (20) Rueda, E. The Homosexual Network. Old Greenwich, Conn., The Devin Adair Company, 1982, p. 53.
    (21) San Francisco AIDS Foundation, “Can We Talk.”
    (22) San Francisco Sentinel, 27 March 1992.
    (23) Science Magazine, 18 July 1993, p. 322.
    (24) Statistical Abstract of the U.S., 1990.
    (25) “The Overhauling of Straight America.” Guide Magazine. November, 1987.
    (26) United States Census Bureau
    (27) United States Congressional Record, June 29, 1989.
    (28) University of Chicago’s Nation Research Corp.
    (29) Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders Fourth Edition, American Psychiatric Association, 1994.

    � 2000- 2003 International Organization of Heterosexual Rights

    As you can see these come from various accredited organizations
    and professionals. I’d like to see your “positive” studies
    about homosexuals that discounts the above comments.

    Also, I’d like to see a scientifically validated study (confirmed by an unbiased organization) tht stated definitely that homosexuality is a genetically/biologically/medically caused behavior, that there is positiely no validity that psychology/sociology/peer group/ family reltionship factors/early abuse, etc. has any power/influence to have a person turn out to be homosexual.

    No indeed, homosexuality’s statement/belief that “you are born
    homosexual” and there’s no way you can ever legitimately change
    is a bogus belief system that gives no hope to individuals who
    dislike their homosexuality and want to change it and become
    heterosexuals. You people are living with a false believe
    system.

  37. Hey Adrian:
    You said, “fact is, whether Hank likes it or not, gay people are adopting children, and children are doing very well.”

    Please give me some valid scientific studies that confirm your statement

  38. You all say that taking a youngster and putting him/her into a homosexual family situation will not confuse/distort/influence their outlook on life, and probably turn that youngster
    into living/preferring/advocating a homosexual lifestyle, I think you’re unrealistic.

    That youngster will see that having 2 fathers or 2 mothers is the way it should be in their life too. They will see 95+% of their friends families not having 2 people of the same sex
    as their parents – it could be very destructive to the youngster’s psyche when they see this disparity of families when visiting their friends at their homes. Whether it’s a single mother
    or single father raised their children still shows that there was a mother and father in the relationship to begin with, and while I think divorce can be very damaging to a youngster,
    we’re not discussing that problem –we’re discussing the probable harmful effects of having a youngster living in a unnatural family situation.

    It stands to reason that this 24/7 homosexual lifestyle will likely change the youngster’s potential for living a heterosexual lifestyle and will most likely create deep confusion and
    psychological problems as they grow up.

    If you think living with a homosexual family is just an alternate choice for a youngster, who can properly evaluate the situation, you can’t because you have no long-term studies to prove your point that every youngster was happy with how they turned out later in life after their early homosexual atmosphere at home.

    The “family” influence is strong, and homosexuals can harm a youngster’s life forever. I would like to read some studies
    that have followed long-term effects of children after they’ve
    left the homosexual family upbringing.

    See the article below – it is not complete as it is too lengthy but you can read the article yourself.

    PEDIATRICS Vol. 104 No. 1 Supplement July 1999, pp. 164-167
    1. COMMENTARY:
    The Role of Parents in Children’s Psychological Development
    ABSTRACT

    This article reviews the three major ways parents influence children: direct interaction, identification, and transmission of family stories. This essay summarizes some of the relevant empiric data in support of this claim and describes the operation of other mechanisms that also contribute to the child’s development.
    The profile of cognitive abilities, beliefs, ethical values, coping defenses, and salient emotional moods that characterizes each child at each developmental stage is the result of diverse influences operating in complex ways. Most students of human development agree that the most important determinants of the different profiles include 1) the inherited physiologic patterns that are called temperamental qualities, 2) parental practices and personality, 3) quality of schools attended, 4) relationships with peers, 5) ordinal position in the family, and, finally, 6) the historical era in which late childhood and early adolescence are spent.1 Each of these factors exerts its major influence on only some components of the psychological profile and is usually most effective during particular age periods. For example, the quality of social relations with peers affects primarily the child’s beliefs about his/her acceptability to others and has its major effect after school entrance.2 By contrast, parental conversations with the child, and especially naming unfamiliar objects, affect the child’s future verbal talents and have maximal effect during the first 6 years of life.

    An emotional identification with either or both parents represents a second, quite different way in which the family affects children. By age 4 to 5 years, children believe, unconsciously, that some of the attributes of their parents are part of their own repertoire, even although this belief might have no objective basis.

    Direct interactions, identification, and knowledge of the accomplishments of family members are three important ways in which families influence children. The first mechanism has its greatest effect on intellectual development and character traits, especially the control of aggression and motivation for achievement. The second and third mechanisms, identification and family myths, have a greater influence on the child’s confidence or doubt about his/her talent and, therefore, on the child’s expectation of future success or failure.

    As I see it, there’s much evidence that a child living in
    a homosexual family will definitely grow up with an unnatural
    bias toward accepting homosexuality without ever having had a
    chance to fully feel the influence of a mother-father
    relationship which I think is unconscionable.

  39. Hey Olive, you said, “Hank, the ghost of Harvey Milk wants to recruit you.;)”

    Ghosts in Hell don’t think about recruiting anybody — it’s too
    late for Harvey, he’s got bigger worries on his mind.

  40. I’ve got a newsflash for you, Hank.

    Millions of straight people also suffer from depression, alcoholism, domestic abuse, drug abuse, can catch STIs (and HIV+) through unsafe hetrosexual sex, terminate unplanned pregnancies, carry out murders and committ suicide (sometimes killing their own children as well). As for paedophiles, the huge majority are straight people – usually a close relative, or a close family friend, or those in a position of trust (i.e. priests, youth leaders etc)

    Oh, and there’s the recent tragic case of Baby P and Brandon Muir in the United Kingdom, two beautiful wee boys who suffered from a horrible, long, painful and violent death at the hand of their hetrosexual parents. (actually, in both cases it was mother and the boyfriend who is not the biological father of the boy).

    So please do not blame gay people on everything – straight people are as much as to blame for a lot of pain and suffering on this world.

  41. Poor Hank’s obsession merely indicates that he is mentally ill and should be treated in a mental institution.

  42. I don’t need to waste time fishing out reports on the internet, to disprove unfounded documents, any more than a Jew has to disprove the Protocols of Zion document.

    Hank has spammed this thread with data which is discredited – not that Hank would understand that, since he has just cut and pasted it from some crank religious website anyway.

    It’s not my job to disprove anything – you listed a whole host of skewed and distorted findings attacking gay people. It’s your job to prove them, and explain how the data was collected, give me n value statistics. And give me any quality ratings for the article. In Cameron’s case the figures are close to zero. Nobody cites them and they are usually in pay-to-publish journals. Your job, not mine. The conclusion in Pediatrics article you quoted was about the benefits of a stable family environment – pretty innocuous if you ask me.

    You also start fom a premise that being gay is in and of itself a terrible thing. Your job to prove it’s a disorder. Your job to prove people can change – there is no evidence to support it.

    If you don’t like the fact you are gay – well, fine if you want to change, but don’t interfere with my life and tell me who I will marry, thanks. The question is not whether change is possible. Is it likely, is it desirable? No and no.

    The people giving you false hope are actually religious nutcases like Exodus, promising false hope such as ‘eternal salvation’, from some tooth fairy celestial dictator, which won’t happen. You Hank are the one living with a false belief system, as we saw last time when you came on here to defend the ludicrous idea that the world is 6,000 years old.

    Actually, there could be nothing worse than letting children rot in orphanages because there aren’t enough married Christian families, which is the situation in Arkansas, a state which has emphatically banned gay adoption.

    You saw fit to quote the Paul Cameron and his Colorado-based Family Research Institute, officially listed as a hate group as a source. He was kicked out of the American Psychological Association in 1983. You then make a load of untested suppositions, to support your claim that gay adoption is harmful.

    If you have an issue with adoption, or new findings, feel free to present any unbiased research to experts such as the APA, CWLA.

  43. dear me what with the RC Church’s declaration of hostilities against us and Hank’s so called Scientific evidence I suppose we should all slit our wrists now and to hell with straight society(!)

  44. Simon Murphy 10 Mar 2009, 12:50pm

    Hank – what age did you attend school until? Was it beyond the age of 12?

    Not a single of out sources is less than 15 years old. MOst in fact are pre-Aids. It makes you look monumentally stupid to be quoting statistics from 1977 to back up your arguements.

    And seeing as we are using statistics from 1977 I will use some old statistics as well.

    it is estimated that until 1990, 68% of catholic priests were paedophiles making their opinions on child-rearing utterly irrelevant.

    Please supply statistics taken within the last 3 years to back up your statements / lies.

    Otherwise those statistics are about as relevant to this discussion as the catholic church is to modern life ie absolutely not.

  45. Hey GAPOI, you say “suicide (sometimes killing their own children as well). As for paedophiles, the huge majority are straight people – usually a close relative, or a close family friend, or those in a position of trust (i.e. priests, youth leaders etc)

    (CAN YOU DEFINITELY SAY THAT THESE PEOPLE ARE NOT CLOSET HOMOSEXUALS, AND NOT TRULY STRAIGHT? MANY PRIESTS AND YOUTH LEADERS ARE HOMOSEXUALS AS IS POINTED OUT WHEN THEIR MOTIVATION
    BACKGROUND IS REVEALED)

    Oh, and there’s the recent tragic case of Baby P and Brandon Muir in the United Kingdom, two beautiful wee boys who suffered from a horrible, long, painful and violent death at the hand of their hetrosexual parents. (actually, in both cases it was mother and the boyfriend who is not the biological father of the boy).
    (So please do not blame gay people on everything – straight people are as much as to blame for a lot of pain and suffering on this world.

    (I AGREE THAT HUMAN NATURE CAN BE EVIL IN PEOPLE, WHATEVER THEIR
    SEXUAL ORIENTATION, BUT THAT STILL DOESN’T MAKE HOMOSEXUALITY
    A POSITIVE LIFESTYLE).

  46. Robert, ex-pat Brit 10 Mar 2009, 1:11pm

    Hey Hank, come out of the closet honey, what are you doing spending so much time on a gay website? Prurient interest perhaps. You don’t mention that straights are responsible for almost all rape crimes, murder, prostitution, pimping, sex trafficking from Asia to the western hemisphere, government corruption, the spread of human papilloma virus found primarily among women, herpes with a higher degree of transmission among straights. How many gay criminals are there on death row in the states? Virtually none! So, you think we choose our orientation and that we can pray away the gay? For the sake of argument, prove to us that you can convert straights to gays using the same method as well as aversion therapy, then maybe you’d have some degree of credibility. I’ve not read any evidence published in the legitimate scientific or medical literature, do enlighten me.

    Another thing, what do you say to straight couple who can’t produce through no fault of their own or who choose not to? Ban them from marrying simply because they can’t breed idiotic closet cases like you?

  47. Chris Lowry 10 Mar 2009, 2:10pm

    I’m so angry with these comments i really dont know where to start!

    firstly the one who is inappropriate and misguided is the Cardinal himself! for spouting such nonsense – as a Catholic i find it so offensive!

    secondly – puttin vunerable kids at risk?? At risk from what exactly!? Being Gay does not equate to being a peadophile – yet another misguided and ignorant comment! I would imagine kids to be more at risk from spending some alone time with the Cardinals colleagues than a loving and committed gay couple!!

  48. Simon Murphy 10 Mar 2009, 2:16pm

    Hank – why are you not providing evidence from studies done in the last few years to support your statistics? Using data from 1977 is rather stupid and uneducated of you.

    And Hank do you agree that god is a genocidal pig for engaging in the cold blooded, premeditated slaughter of the 1st born child of all Egyptians for no other reason than the fact that they were Egyptians. Do you think Hitler was inspired by the genocidal deity?

    People who worship such an evil bastard (as the catholics do) are in no position to make moral judgements on anyone.

  49. john sharp 10 Mar 2009, 2:35pm

    why do we j
    let these chrch liyers speak t
    eh have no public stand and shoud either sitck to their chrches of shut up religions are leis we need the gouventment to protect the populoation from religious lies

  50. john sharp 10 Mar 2009, 2:36pm

    why do we j
    let these chrch liyers speak t
    eh have no public stand and shoud either sitck to their chrches of shut up religions are lies we need the gouvertment to protect the population from religious lies

  51. Oh bless Hank, the Voice of Reason, whose logic is encapsulated by this memorable quote: “About 50% of the women on death row are lesbians ). Homosexuals prey on children.”

  52. His Eminence says “Since less than two per cent of the population is homosexual and a minority of this group are in a stable relationship, which would allow consideration as foster parents, it is difficult to see how the changes advocated can have any impact on widening the potential pool of foster families.”

    The dodgy statistics aside, if the proposed changes aren’t going to have an impact, why is he complaining about them?

  53. Stability and statistics are a red herring – he just hates fags and dykes (if you do actually stay together, Catholic divines describe you as ‘persisting in sin’). Free speech means having to listen to mad witch-doctors of every kind, I’m afraid.

  54. I’ve noticed that in the gay-adoption debate the orientation of the adoptive parents is focused on but never that of the adopted child. Even though this may not yet be developed, even by Archbishop’s conservative estimate, at least 2% of adopted kids are likely to be gay/lesbian. No thought seems to be given to what it might like for them to be brought up by a ‘devout’ Catholic i.e. one who believes that homosexuals are ‘intrinsically disordered’. If a potential adoptive parent were to hold such views with regards to any other inherited characteristic e.g. skin colour, I wonder if they would be get past screening? I assume not – so why are Catholics allowed to adopt at all? It seems to me that all potential adoptive parents should be explicitly asked how thy would react if their child turned out to be gay/lesbian as part of the screening process, especially if they hold religious or political beliefs that might be discriminatory against gay/lesbian people.

  55. Yo Adrian, you say, “You saw fit to quote the Paul Cameron and his Colorado-based Family Research Institute, officially listed as a hate group as a source. He was kicked out of the American Psychological Association in 1983. You then make a load of untested suppositions, to support your claim that gay adoption is harmful.

    OK, let’s leave out Cameron, et.al. how about the other 28
    references — do you dispute all of them also? Why do you do
    so — please give me your evidence for called them invalid.
    Where did you get your information that they were invalid?

    Also please give me validated, scientifically accepted studies
    that show without question that homosexuality happens because
    of a “gene factor” or some other sexual indicator. There is
    none and I feel that over the past 50 years or more that many
    homosexual scientists are trying desperately to show there is
    a homosexual gene, so it gives credence to your constant lie,
    “homosexuals are born that way,” — where is your valid evidence?
    Everything honosexuals say comes from anecdotal input — from
    individuals “I’ve always felt like a homosexual” or the parents,
    stating, “he’s always liked doing non-male things,” etc. Everything comes from unreliable sources — “SHOW ME THE MONEY —
    THE REAL THING — FROM ACCEPTABLE SCIENTISTS” not from a
    questionable second hand source.

    Also, In 1963 the NY Academy of Medicine, concerned that
    there seemed to be an increasing acceptance
    of homosexuality, charged its Comm. on Public
    Health to investigate the issue.

    The committee researched the subject , consulted among themselves, and reported that “homosexuality is indeed an illness. The
    homosexual is an emotionally disturbed individual who has not acquired the normal capacity to develop satisfying heterosexual
    relations.” The homosexual group went beyond
    the plane of defensiveness in certain actions.

    However in just 10 years in 1973, the APA voted
    to remove homosexuality from its official list
    of psychiatric illnesses. What happened?

    Santinover, a former Fellow in Psychiatry and
    Child Psychiatry at Yale U, comments, “Normally, a scientific consensus is reached ove the course of many years, resulting from the accumulated weight of many properly designated studies. But in the case of homosexuality, scientific research has only now just begun, years AFTER the question was decided… The APA vote to normalize homosexuality was driven by politics, not
    science.

    When the APA voted on changing its classification of homosexuality in 1973 a majority of its members who responded voted to
    change the classification of homosexuality.

    But, only one-third of the membership responded
    and had their views counted. The vote was
    not representative of the will of the body.
    Four years after the change in classification
    the journal Medical Aspects of Human Sexuality
    reported the results of a survey it had
    conducted. The survey demonstrated that
    69% of the psychiatrists disagreed with the decision and still considered homosexuality a disorder.

    One researcher concluded that “the result was
    not a conclusion based upon an approximation
    of scientific truth as dictated by reason,
    but was instead an action demanded by the
    ideological temper of the times.”

    There’s much more work needed to give the
    entire story of homosexuality (bi) to let
    the public know fact from fiction and
    reality from prevarication, and give hope to those
    homosexuals who do not want to continue living in
    that lifestyle and that possibility to change out of
    it is an option.

  56. Yo Simon Murphy: You say, “And Hank do you agree that god is a genocidal pig for engaging in the cold blooded, premeditated slaughter of the 1st born child of all Egyptians for no other reason than the fact that they were Egyptians.”
    IF THE EGYPTIANS WOULD HAVE ACCEPTED GOD AND HIS WORD, THEY
    WOULD NOT HAVE BEEN KILLED. BUT BECAUSE THEY REJECTED GOD AND
    PREFERRED TO LIVE A LIFE OF THEIR IDOLS AND INEFFECTUAL GODS,
    THEY CHOSE THAT OVER FOLLOWING THE GOD OF THE UNIVERSE — SO
    THE END RESULT IS DEATH — NO OTHER REASON THAT GOD HAS TO GIVE.
    CHOSE WHO YOU WILL FOLLOW — GOD OR DEATH. WHAT’S WRONG WITH
    THAT REASONING? IT’S YOUR CHOICE AND THE RESULT IS YOUR CHOICE
    TOO.

    Do you think Hitler was inspired by the genocidal deity?

    HITLER WAS A NUT-CASE AND INTO SATANIC WORSHIP AND HIS EVILNESS
    BROUGHT THE RESULT TO PEOPLE WHO ACCEPTED HIS AS “THEIR GOD.”

    People who worship such an evil bastard (as the catholics do) are in no position to make moral judgements on anyone.

    I DON’T CONSIDER CATHOLICS TO BE FUNDAMENTAL CHRISTIAN BELIEVERS
    OF JESUS CHRIST SO I DON’T FOLLOW THEIR BELIEF SYSTEM. I FOLLOW
    JESUS CHRIST — NO ORGANIZED RELIGION. IF YOU DON’T LIKE THAT,
    PLEASE TELL ME WHAT WRONG DID JESUS CHRIST DO?

  57. Hank = you’re a sad bugger mate..get a life and come out of the closet.

    As for the misogynistic hate-provoking dress-wearing kiddy-fiddling-protecting Bishop it’s time he looked up and smelled the roses..it’s 2009 and not 1409. Catholics are dying off and dwindling in numbers and becoming less relavant in society because only stupid sad people follow their rules and regs… how can he take himself seriously when his own organisation has excommunicated (oooh scary) the mother and doctors of a 9 year old girl for having an abortion because the twins she was pregnant with by her own stepfather would have killed her..but the stepfather ..oh no he’s OK… they probably flew him over to Rome where they send all their kiddy fiddlers to protect then form the courts.

    It’s time the Catholic Church and any other religious organisation lost their charitable statuses and pay tax like the rest of us until they start treating everyone equal and leave abortion/contraception as a decision to those whom it concerns.

  58. really Henk, stop spamming the site with made up junk which no medical person takes remotely seriously. The source you quote was a religious pamphlet, not even in a journal, let alone a peer reviewed one.

    I don’t have to disprove anything – you have to prove those claims are true. That you clearly haven’t a clue about where any of the data came from shows, yet again, you’re just cruising the net to find any old data that suits your hatred of gay people. However, this http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/Articles/000,010.htm answers even more of those so called sources.

    There is nothing to be discussed: homosexuality is natural, that’s what all the professional organisations say quite clearly, so get used to it.

    Whether or not there is a ‘gene factor’ – I could not care less, no gay person really cares. Because, since there is nothing wrong with being gay, why should they? Moreover, why do you hate other people enjoying sex, and why is it any of your business?

    The people who want to change have usually been bullied into it by peers and families. Helping LGBT people stand up to bigots like you wherever they are, will help them feel better about themselves, so they do not need cults like Exodus. As you prove, ex-gay bullies can only work when they strip the rights of gay people so gays have no alternative but to join their repressive quack cults. I mean to empower such people with the knowledge, they can live a happy, wholesome, hatred-free gay life.

  59. Hey Peter Th

    You say, “Catholics are dying off and dwindling in numbers and becoming less relavant in society because only stupid sad people follow their rules and regs…”

    You’re stating a partial truth and it doesn’t bother me because
    as I said, I don’t consider R.C.Church a truly fundamental
    belief system that follows Jesus Christ’s thinking. While I
    agree that many so-called Christian churches are filled with
    hypocracy and luke-warm church members, there’s a strong number
    of truly born-again believers who accept Jesus Christ as Lord
    and Savior, and we are a minority overall.
    Most people don’t understand that accepting Jesus Christ for
    salvation means you don’t have to belong to any organized religious
    organization. It’s not a religion, it’s a deep relationship
    that gives true understanding and a joyful future, but it means
    giving up many worldly things and putting Jesus first and foremost
    thoughout this life — for a much better one when one dies.
    Studying the Bible seriously takes you beyond all the superficial
    and hurtful things that man does to himself and to mankind. It’s
    a challenge that most people don’t or can’t handle.

    Hey Robert, ex-pat …. I’ll answer you next — nice to hear from
    you again. I have a few good things to comment. And as much
    as you hope that I’m a homosexual — have to disappoiint you on
    that one — have never even considered it as an option in my
    sex life.

  60. Hey Andrew, you say, “Hank, first rule of using statistics – use citations so that other can check the methodology of your sources. I can tell straight off that quite a few of the “facts” you quote come from highly discredited sources, or are hugely out of date.

    Ok, you saw my references (whether discredited or not) on this
    site, I never see any validated sources, studies, references, etc. that show that homosexuality is an inborn factor — I’d certainly like to see any verifiable studies backing up your belief system.

    Also how do you reply ( with facts, not opinion) to my above
    comment regarding statements by the NY Academy of Medicine and the APA’s questionable removable of homosexuality from its
    list of psychiatric illnesses?

  61. Hank: you claim ‘IF THE EGYPTIANS WOULD HAVE ACCEPTED GOD AND HIS WORD, THEY WOULD NOT HAVE BEEN KILLED. BUT BECAUSE THEY REJECTED GOD AND PREFERRED TO LIVE A LIFE OF THEIR IDOLS AND INEFFECTUAL GODS,THEY CHOSE THAT OVER FOLLOWING THE GOD OF THE UNIVERSE — SO
    THE END RESULT IS DEATH.

    So how come the Egyptians lasted as an independent state until 30BC, when they were finally conquered by the then-non-Christian Romans?

  62. Hey Robert – ex-Pat: you say, “Hey Hank, come out of the closet honey, what are you doing spending so much time on a gay website? Prurient interest perhaps.

    (HUNGER, SHELTER, SEX, POWER, MONEY –these are the greatest drives in mankind and I like to research, study and argue my viewpoint on a number of these subjects. Reading a homosexual website gives me great insight into your type of thinking and behavior and even in your political agenda – all very challenging. I also post comments on various websites that discuss important topics.

    YOU SAY: I don’t mention that straights are responsible for almost all rape crimes, murder, prostitution, pimping, sex trafficking from Asia to the western hemisphere, government corruption, the spread of human papilloma virus found primarily among women, herpes with a higher degree of transmission among straights. How many gay criminals are there on death row in the states? Virtually none!”

    ( YOU SHOULDN’T EXPECT TO SEE A HIGH % OF HOMOSEXUALS COMMITTING THESE TYPES OF ACTIVITIES, BECAUSE YOU ARE ONLY 2% OF THE POPULATION AND HETEROSEXUALS ARE 98%, SO OF COURSE THEY DO MOST OF THE DIRTY DEEDS MENTIONED – I NEVER IMPLIED THAT HETEROSEXUALS ARE OF A HIGH MORAL CHARACTER).

    You say, “So, you think we choose our orientation and that we can pray away the gay? For the sake of argument, prove to us that you can convert straights to gays using the same method as well as aversion therapy, then maybe you’d have some degree of credibility. I’ve not read any evidence published in the legitimate scientific or medical literature, do enlighten me.

    (NOT THAT YOU’LL ACCEPT ANY FINDINGS, CASE STUDIES, ETC. THAT SHOW HOMOSEXUALS CAN INDEED CHANGE TOTALLY) A few examples are listed now:

    Today people still report leaving homosexuality and becoming heterosexual.

    Peter LaBarbera is the President of Americans for Truth which is a organization which counters the homosexual agenda. LaBarbera stated the following regarding Christian ex-homosexuals who reported being transformed by the power of God:

    “Another factor from my experience as a close observer of the “ex-gay” phenomenon is that many former homosexuals do not linger in “reparative therapy” programs, or participate in them at all. They attribute their dramatic and (relatively) rapid transformation to the power of God, and likely would not show up in a study of this kind. In fact, these “unstudied” overcomers would appear to be the most successful ex-homosexuals because they’ve moved on with their lives — as “reborn” Christians move on after overcoming any besetting sin.

    “Homosexuality is death, and I choose life”. – Ex-Homosexual and ex-“gay rights” leader Michael Glatze

    “I came out of homosexuality after a powerful encounter with Jesus Christ and a desire to serve and obey Him. I can say with complete honesty that I NEVER have homosexual desires of any sort – physical or emotional.” – Ex-lesbian Yvette Cantu Schneider

    A 2006 survey finds men seek to leave homosexual lifestyle to heal emotional pain and for spiritual reasons rather than outside pressure. In addition, there is other data that supports the above 2006 survey findings.

    Darryl L. Foster of Atlanta, Georgia, a former homosexual, states the following regarding Oprah Winfrey and the issue of people supposedly being “born homosexuals”:

    When Heche and Degeneres appeared on The Oprah Winfrey Show to discuss their newfound relationship, Heche stunned everyone (including Oprah) by stating, “I was not gay before I met her.” You know Oprah; she was just going to be Color Purple honest. “That confuses me,” she quickly confessed. Considering the amount of time and energy gay activists put into pressing “born gay” templates, I’m sure that’s not exactly what Oprah was expecting to hear. She was so baffled by the remark that she dedicated her next show to whether or not gays can change….
    Heche has now chosen to be heterosexual and to prove it she got married on last Thursday to Coleman Laffron, a Hollywood cameraman she met while working on a project with then lover Ellen. Was she secretly dreaming of a white, heterosexual Christmas while she was with Ellen? If she was, then can we theorize that many gay people really do want to be straight, but just haven’t found the right cameraman/woman yet

    VIRGINIA, July 13, 2006 (LifeSiteNews.com) – Why would anyone with homosexual attractions try to “go straight”? According to conventional wisdom, the answer is inevitably “internalized homophobia” or societal pressure.

    But a new survey of almost 200 same-sex-attracted men who are pursuing change paints a very different picture: Out of 18 possible motivations listed in the survey, outside pressure was the least frequently cited motivating factor reported by the 189 survey respondents.

    The most frequently cited motivation was a desire to heal emotional hurts that respondents believe contributed to their same-sex attractions (SSA) to begin with.

    The desire to heal emotional pain was cited as a major motivator by 77% of respondents, compared to 22% who identified “outside pressure” as a major motivator. In fact, just 3% identified outside pressure as one of the three main reasons they were seeking change.

    The survey was conducted by People Can Change, a non-profit, non-religious self-help organization of men who have overcome unwanted homosexual attractions and who now support others who seek similar change.

    On average, each respondent identified 14 of the 18 factors as contributing to their desire to change. Other factors identified as major motivators include:
    – personal spirituality – 68%
    – desire for wife and children – 66%
    – religious teachings – 63%
    – desire for nonsexual male friendships – 63%
    – conscience – 63%
    – expectation of unhappiness in gay life – 63%.
    Richard Wyler, a professional life coach who is the founder and executive director of People Can Change, summarized, “This survey indicates that same-sex- attracted men who seek change may be less influenced by outside pressure or shame than is generally assumed. Rather, they are more often motivated by their personal spirituality, deeply held values and beliefs, a desire to have a family, and a desire to heal emotional pain.”
    The current survey didn’t explore perceived “root causes,” but a 2004 survey by People Can Change found that men seeking to overcome SSA most frequently perceived the root causes of their own attractions to be:
    – a history of father-son relationship problems,
    – a history of problems relating with male peers,
    – unhealthy mother-son relationships,
    – a history of sexual abuse, and
    – individual personality traits.

  63. Poor Hank – ‘50% of suicides can be attributed to homosexuals': ‘Attributed’? Attributed by whom? What are the (no doubt reputable) sources you so proudly cite elsewhere?

    ‘Homosexuals prey on children’ – and your sources for that are? Answers that are concise and to the point, please.

    Even you must on some level understand that to post in such volume and with such a hysterical edge on a gay website is hardly balanced behaviour for someone supposedly straight and uncomplicated?

  64. Hank,

    One question remain – if you feel so strongly disagree with the homosexual lifestyle, then what on earth are you doing on this website, which is catered for the LGBT comminity?????

    As far as I can see, you’re the only one in this thread who is against the homosexual lifestyle, and telling everyone how wrong it is. If you are trying to tell people in here that homosexuality is a sin and that only Jesus can save them, then sadly you are wasting your time.

    Anyhoo, it’s been a good laugh reading your anti-homosexuality ramblings (the cut ‘n’ paste thingy “borrowed” from other websites is a classic). Next time my SNP government decides to introduce more gay equality laws, I look forward to your new dose of soapbox bile, because it will only serve to unite gay people, and give us something to stand up in unison and fight for our rights :)

  65. Hey Rehan, you say, “So how come the Egyptians lasted as an independent state until 30BC, when they were finally conquered by the then-non-Christian Romans”

    Our measure of time has no meaning to God and He does and permits all things (wars included) in His own time.
    For instance, in Mal. 1:6-11.(Malachi is the last book in the Old Testament.) .
    After Malachi, God did not speak again until John the Baptist appeared over 400 years later.
    The message of Malachi (whose name means “My Messenger”) was God’s last word to Israel prior to the approach of the kingdom of the Messiah.
    It is a little book of terrifying warnings and glorious hope — just as relevant and powerful today as it was in about 435 B.C. when it was first presented.
    The spiritual conditions confronted by Malachi are distressingly similar to some of our own.

    God is patient because He does not want anyone to be eternally lost. “The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance” (2 Peter 3:9). One meaning of “patience,” according to the Illustrated Oxford Dictionary, is “the capacity for calm, self-possessed waiting.”

    God has promised that there will be a day when sinners will receive their final condemnation (2 Peter 2:9; 3:7), but God is waiting in order that more sinners might accept and obey the Gospel.

    Wayne Jackson noted biblical examples of this patience:
    The Lord’s wrath is not inflicted impulsively. Rather, history repeatedly has demonstrated that God exercises “much long-suffering” toward those deserving of punishment (Romans 9:22).

    His patience was demonstrated to the generation of Noah’s day (Genesis 6:3). He longed to spare corrupt Sodom (Genesis 18:26ff). Jehovah revealed himself to Moses as a God who is “slow to anger” (Exodus 34:6; cf. Psalms 103:8). The Lord was even long-suffering with a wretch as vile as Ahab (1 Kings 21:29). For centuries He was tolerant with the arrogant and stiff-necked nation of Israel (Nehemiah 9:17)

    We desperately need God’s patience, just as the apostle Paul did. Paul was given the opportunity to be saved, despite the fact that he was “the chief ” of sinners (1 Timothy 1:15-16;

    Potential for salvation rests in God’s patience. Rather than instantly destroying people when they sin, He providentially gives people opportunities and encouragement that should lead to repentance (Titus 2:11). God expects us to request His continued patience as we make mistakes (1 John 1:9; Luke 11:4), and He shows His patience by continually forgiving us of our sins when we do (based on the sacrifice of Christ’s blood and our sincere obedience to His will; see 1 John 1:7).

    We should emulate the patience of God. Romans 2:6-7 emphasizes the necessity of patience in the lives of Christians: “[God] will render to each one according to his deeds: eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality” (emp. added).

    Paul instructed Christians to be patient: “Now we exhort you, brethren, warn those who are unruly, comfort the fainthearted, uphold the weak, be patient with all” (1 Thessalonians 5:14, emp. added; cf. Christ’s parable of the impatient servant in Matthew 18:23-35). People cannot be saved unless they have patience, because without patience, the Christian’s work is impossible (see Ecclesiastes 7:8; Ephesians 4:2; 2 Timothy 2:24; James 1:4). Patience also is necessary because other essential Christian virtues, including faith, hope, and joy, are dependent on it (James 1:2-4; Romans 5:3; 15:4; Colossians 1:11;

    If God had been a man, He would have taken His hand and wiped out this world long ago; but God has that patience which bears with all our sinning and which will not cast us off. In our lives, in our attitude to and dealings with our fellow men, we must reproduce this loving, forbearing, forgiving, patient attitude of God toward ourselves.

    God’s patience is balanced by His perfect justice. Unforgiven sin will be punished, but God’s patience allows time for repentance (Matthew 25:41; 2 Peter 2:9; ). Isaiah 30:18 makes it clear: “Therefore the Lord will wait, that He may be gracious to you; and therefore He will be exalted that He may have mercy on you. For the Lord is God of justice; blessed are those who wait for Him.” God’s generous patience should motivate us to obey Him.

    You still have time to do as God says, and not as you and human
    nature wants you to do.

  66. Hey Rehan, you said, ” Poor Hank – ‘50% of suicides can be attributed to homosexuals': ‘Attributed’? Attributed by whom? What are the (no doubt reputable) sources you so proudly cite elsewhere?

    There is a high rate of suicidality among lesbians and gay men. Jay and Young found that 40 percent of gay males and 39 percent of lesbians surveyed had either attempted or seriously contemplated suicide (1). Bell and Weinberg similarly found that 35 percent of gay males and 38 percent of lesbians in their study had either seriously considered or attempted suicide (2). Homosexuals are far more likely to attempt suicide than are heterosexuals. A majority of these attempts take place in their youth. Bell and Weinberg found that 25 percent of lesbians and 20 percent of gay men had actually attempted suicide. Gay males were 6 times more likely to make an attempt then heterosexual males. Lesbians were more than twice as likely to try committing suicide than the heterosexual women in the study. A majority of the suicide attempts by homosexuals took place at age 20 or younger with nearly one-third occurring before age 17.
    1. Suicidal behavior by gay and lesbian youth, however, occurs today within the broader context of an epidemic increase in suicide among all young people in our society. Between 1950 and 1980, there was an increase of more than 170 percent in suicides by youth between the ages of 15 and 24 (3). The suicide rate for all age groups rose only 20 percent during that time. At least 5,000 youth now take their lives each year with the number believed to be significantly higher if deliberate auto accidents, victim precipitated homicides, and inconclusive coroner reports are taken into account. The rate of suicide attempts to completions is much higher among young people than any other age group with as many as 500,000 attempts annually. This leads us to believe that many times a suicide attempt by a young person is really a cry for help.
    Gay and lesbian youth have been a hidden population within the adolescent and young adult age group. Those programs and studies able to document suicidality in gay youth have found they have a high rate of suicidal feelings and behavior that places them at substantially greater risk of taking their own lives compared to other youth (See Appendix A). Statistics from the Institute for the Protection of Gay and Lesbian Youth in New York, the University of Minnesota Adolescent Health Program in Minneapolis, Roesler and Deisher in Seattle, and the Los Angeles Suicide Prevention Center consistently show that 20-35 percent of gay youth interviewed have made suicide attempts (4,5,6,7). Statistics from Minneapolis, Los Angeles and San Francisco find that more than 50 percent of gay youth experience suicidality including serious depression and suicidal feelings (5,7,8). The Larkin Street Youth Center in San Francisco found that among their client population of homeless youth, 65 percent of homosexual/bisexual youth compared to 19 percent of heterosexual youth reported ever being suicidal, and that gay youth had a rate of suicidality nearly 3.5 times greater than other youth (8). The Los Angeles Suicide Prevention Center in preliminary data from an unpublished study, found that the suicide attempt rate for gay youth is more than 3 times higher than that of heterosexual youth; their rate of suicidality is more than twice that of other youth (7).
    REFERENCES
    1. 1. Jay, K. and Young, A The Gay Report: Lesbians and Gay Men Speak Out About Their Sexual Experiences and Lifestyles. New York: Summit, 1977.
    2. Bell, A and Weinberg, M. Homosexualities: A Study of Diversity Among Men and Women. New York: Simon and Schuster, 1978.
    3. Centers for Disease Control. Center for Environmental Health. “Youth Suicide Surveillance Report”. Department of Health and Human Services. Atlanta, 1986.
    4. Avicoili, T. Coming Out of the Dark Ages: Social Workers Told of Special Youth Needs. Philadelphia Gay News. May 9, 1986.
    5. Remafedi, G. “Male Homosexuality: The Adolescent’s Perspective”. Adolescent Health Program, University of Minnesota: Unpublished, 1985.
    8. Roesler, T. and Deisher, R. “Youthful Man Homosexuality”. Journal of the American Medical Association. Feb. 21, 1972: 1018-1023.
    7. Los Angeles Suicide Prevention Center. “Problems of Suicide Among Lesbian and Gay Adolescents”. Preliminary Data. Los Angeles: Unpublished, 1986.

  67. Hey GAPOI you say, “One question remain – if you feel so strongly disagree with the homosexual lifestyle, then what on earth are you doing on this website, which is catered for the LGBT comminity?????

    As far as I can see, you’re the only one in this thread who is against the homosexual lifestyle, and telling everyone how wrong it is. If you are trying to tell people in here that homosexuality is a sin and that only Jesus can save them, then sadly you are wasting your time.

    Are you telling me that all homosexuals are totally happy with
    their lifestyle? If so, you are terribly mistaken as you can see
    in one of my above comments — there are more and more homosexuals
    who are very depressed, unhappy, and want to change, and there
    are outlets for them. What I’m doing is giving some hope for them
    not to stay in this destructive lifestyle if they WANT TO CHANGE,
    there are organizations and people who can help. People have
    changed and are today changing out of homosexuality — it can be
    done IF YOU WANT TO DO SO. Don’t be discouraged, others have done
    it and so can you.

    You people have consistently told a lie so much that naive people
    have bought into it. I know that dictators have used that old
    ruse –SAY THE LIE ENOUGH TIMES AND THEY’LL EVENTUALLY BELIEVE
    IT, and the homosexual community is doing just that — I’m
    not one of your naive sheep.

  68. My poor old Hank, I’m sorry for you but “Egyptians died” – “Oh well, maybe they didn’t die but how can you measure time?” is not an argument.

    Suggestion: look up ‘concise’ – I’m sure you have a dictionary to hand? If not, it may be a good idea to invest in one.

  69. Yo (as you’d say), Hank.

    Unfortunately, being a frivolous homosexual I lose the will to live when faced with your incontinent barrage of dodgy references. Would that make me one of your suicidal statistics?

    1977, 1978, 1986, 1985, 1972 and 1986 (best of all, unpublished) – someone else has asked you why you never refer to recent research, and one can’t help wondering why indeed. Any explanation?

    Answers that are concise and to the point, please.

  70. Hank,

    I have yet to meet one gay or lesbian who are unhappy with their lifestyle. It’s the narrow-minded and bigoted people like you who are causing all the unhappiness to gay people, because YOU just couldn’t accept us.

    Actually you are doing me a favour – ever since we won hard-fought gay rights in the UK during the early part of this decade, we have recently lost interest when it comes to lobbying for gay issues because we had nothing left to fight for. As a result there are less turnout from gay people taking part in campaigns.

    Thank you for providing me with motivation – I’ve already copied and printed off your comments, which will serve as a timely reminder to all my friends and contacts within my LGBT community that the struggle for gay acceptance and equality are far from over.

  71. Hey Hank! Talk about overcompensating, mate.

    Shouldn’t you be conveying all your data on the subject to Cardinal O’Brien with courtesy copies to Brian Souter. It would be bedtime reading to them.

    All the best.

  72. Hey Rehan: You questioned, “1977, 1978, 1986, 1985, 1972 and 1986 (best of all, unpublished) – someone else has asked you why you never refer to recent research, and one can’t help wondering why indeed. Any explanation.

    Yes, I don’t have more recent data sites to update the studies.
    But I ask you, why do you believe very much has changed regarding
    the findings? Trends can proceed for many years, and I don’t
    think things have gotten better for homosexuals, from the little
    bits I pick up by random selections. If you have newer
    data please give them to me to show things are less dire today.

  73. Hey Dave, you said, “Shouldn’t you be conveying all your data on the subject to Cardinal O’Brien with courtesy copies to Brian Souter. It would be bedtime reading to them”

    I don’t have much faith in the R.C. Church. I practice the
    only “true religion” — the realtionship with Jesus Christ
    not with an organized religion.

  74. Hank,

    I have yet to meet a gay or lesbian who are unhappy with their lifestyle. It’s narrowed-minded and bigoted people like YOU who are causing a lot of unhappiness to gay people, because you just couldn’t accept us.

    Actually, you are doing me a favour – ever since we won hard-fought gay rights in the UK, we have become less interested in gay issues because we had nothing left to fight for.

    Your comments – which I have copied and printed off – are excellent in that they will serve as a timely reminder to all my gay friends and my contacts within the local LGBT organisations that the struggle for gay equality and acceptance are still far from over.

    Thanks very much for the motivation! :)

  75. It seems posts go into thin air on here. I take it PinkNews will remove this unsubstantiated religious extremist gay-hate grafitti in the morning?

  76. Well Hank, It seems all the world’s experts are wrong – here on Pinknews is a Southern Baptist nutcase with all the answers. Why not offer an article to the British medical Journal if you are so confident you are right, instead of spamming your garbage here?

    Well, of course, you would be laughed at, because you don’t have the ability to think for yourself, and your lazy cut and paste postings from propaganda from extremist websites show this.

    I don’t have to disprove any of the nonsense you have written, because it’s for you to tell me how you know any of the information to be true and balanced. Your first report was a pamphlet produced by extremists, not even in a peer reviewed journal. Like you said, ‘say a lie enough times and people will believe it’ – that’s exactly what you, and your nutcase co-religionists are trying to do.

  77. HANK REMINDS US OF THE NEED TO SHOW SOLIDARITY WITH LGBT PEOPLE BULLIED BY RELIGIOUS BIGOTS

    I will do my level best to empower LGBT people to stand up to bigots like you, and encourage them to tell you to go to hell – it’s a shame no such place exists for poeiple like you. They have the right to know that they can live a fulfilled, happy, gay life – the reason they can’t in backward places like Arkansas and Georgia is because people like you make their lives a misery, dictating to them how they should live their lives, demonizing them with.

    LGBT rights will come to your part of the world, Hank, and my advice to you is to live and let live.

    There is by the way, no evidence for the existence of Jesus, beyond what Paul and his fanatic followers wrote 50 years later.
    PS Stop using block capitals, it’s babyish.

  78. LYING FOR JESUS: EX-GAY FRAUD MINISTRIES LEECH MONEY OUT OF VULNERABLE GAY PEOPLE, AND DON’T WORK
    Ex-gay organisations are pickpockets, and brainwash people with shame, self hatred and guilt. They don’t make people straight, just repress people’s sexuality. The fact they can only succeed if they strip away the rights of gay people shows what a failure they are. They leech thousands of dollars out of vulnerable people, many of whom have accepted their homosexuality.

    Remove the space between dot and ‘org’ for the following links –
    See testimonies of ex-gay survivors to hear how ex-gay ministries ruin gay people’s lives: http://www.truthwinsout. org/category/videos/survivors/
    See how ex-gay organisations distort research in these videos presented by experts http://www.truthwinsout. org/category/videos/medical-professionals/

    More here from other medical and psychiatric professionals who complain about how their research has been completely distorted for the ex-gay agenda:
    http://www.respectmyresearch. org/distortions.html

  79. Hank, in reply to your post 68: I and my friends are reasonably balanced and content homosexuals, I don’t need research to prove it or justify it. It’s you who are making contentious statements, with seemingly prejudiced “evidence” in support, with many curiously unsupported and bigoted remarks thrown in for good measure.

    I don’t feel the need, nor have I the time, to look up objective research but there’s plenty out there. Your personal relationship with Jesus the Christ seems to leave you with an inordinate amount of time to post at great length on a gay website (one might ask why), may I suggest you look it up yourself by stepping out of your safe little box?

  80. A few responses to those below:

    To GAPOI :you say, “I have yet to meet a gay or lesbian who are unhappy with their lifestyle. It’s narrowed-minded and bigoted people like YOU who are causing a lot of unhappiness to gay people, because you just couldn’t accept us.”

    (I guess you’re saying that all homosexuals are perfectly happy
    with their lifestyle — that none of them go to psychiatrists,
    ex-gay groups to change, never think depressed feelings, and
    about suicide — are content with themselves — WOW — I guess
    homosexuality is the answer to finding true happiness in this
    bigoted world — you truly are a gem! But unfortunately you’re
    living in an unrealsitic world. Look at the statistics and
    see the truth, or MAYBE YOU CAN’T HANDLE THE TRUTH.)

    To Adrian, you say Well, of course, you would be laughed at, because you don’t have the ability to think for yourself, and your lazy cut and paste postings from propaganda from extremist websites show this.
    (How about the references I gave about the AMA, APA, NY Medical
    Association and various psychiatrists who have the time and
    facilities to do the research — I guess all that accounts for
    nothing — for a mind that is closed.
    Please show me where this is POSITIVE scientific findings detailing
    all the good things that homosexuality offers its people. PLEASE
    list those atributes (from professionals, not your opinions) —
    I’ve not seen any validated works as such. Don’t homosexual
    professionals ever publish such studies? No…because there
    aren’t any worthy of acceptance.

    you say, “PS Stop using block capitals, it’s babyish.
    BLOCK LETTERS EXIST ON THE KEYBOARD TO MAKE A DEFINITE POINT,
    otherwise I don’t use them as you can see in all my comments.
    Also I use them to differentiate from the copy I’m responding to.
    Don’t be such a fussy person –critizice me on on substance, not
    superficial items –PLEASE!

    To Rehan: you day,

    Hank, in reply to your post 68: I and my friends are reasonably balanced and content homosexuals, I don’t need research to prove it or justify it. It’s you who are making contentious statements, with seemingly prejudiced “evidence” in support, with many curiously unsupported and bigoted remarks thrown in for good measure.

    (How do you know they’re prejudicied, unsupported, bigoted
    remarks — have you checked my references yourself, or have
    you simply repeated what others have said?

    I truly believe that the homosexual community doesn’t have any
    substantian studies to show that homosexuality is indeed an
    inborm ingredient to prove your position.

    You never discuss those cases where homosexuals came out of their
    lifestyle and are living heterosexual lifestyles — you deny the
    facts and say, “they were never homosexuals to begin with) —
    you live in a world of denial and self-deception, not in reality
    where you can face facts instead of discarded them because they
    don’t fit your life system — I’d sure like to see facts coming
    from all of you rather than opinions.

  81. No, there aren’t any ‘positive’ studies. Why should there be? If you’re going to make accusations, it’s your job to prove them, not mine to disprove them. That’s how justice works. You pull stuff from the Net, without understanding it, or where the citations have come from.

    There is nothing wrong or right about homosexuality. That’s why it was removed from the list of disorders by professionals: there was no reason to call it a disorder. Nothing political about it. It was only a problem for mainly deeply religious psychiatrists, 30 years ago, who were blinded by prejudice and started with the premise that homosexuality was wrong. E.g. Narth. Their reason was not accepted – it didn’t stand to reason in the first place.

    What reason did the dissenting APA members actually cite to argue for maintaining the classification of homosexuality as a disorder?

    Did you check that up at all, before you blindly cut and pasted that piece of reliigous propaganda?

    Using block capitals in the middle of sentences most certainly is babyish – it implies you can’t get a point across without shouting and screaming and hollering. And your repeated lengthy spamming of this thread, three or four at a time, aiming to drown out any rational argument by volume of posting, shows this.

  82. You’re an excitable fellow, aren’t you Hank? First, look up the word ‘seemingly’, which you clearly overlooked in your haste to give way to logorrhoea. Second, I don’t need research to tell me when a remark is bigoted, I can work it out for myself (‘homosexuals prey on children’ is an example you may have encountered).

    I hope when you accuse others of simply repeating what they’ve been told, you’re aware of the irony (not to say hypocrisy)? If you’re aiming to amuse it might be worth trying harder.

    If there are homosexuals who “come out of their lifestyle” and are happy, good for them; ditto those (the greater number, in my experience) who go in the opposite direction. I see not the slightest reason to try and convince people of the error of their ways – which makes me wonder, why do you? That’s a question you’ve been asked over and over again, yet somehow avoid answering. An axe to grind of some sort, it would appear.

  83. Hey Adrian T.

    I’ll just give you a short answer to start — have some errands
    to do — will get back to you later.

    You say, “No, there aren’t any ‘positive’ studies. Why should there be?”

    One of the most stupid, illogical statements made on this site.
    Listen to what you’re saying. You are living an abnormal,
    minority lifestyle and you have no evidence to validate your
    belief system. How do you know what indeed you’re living
    except your own personal opinion. Did you “pull it out of your
    hat,?” I can’t believe you’d make such a stupid remark.

    Where did you get affirmation to justify your lifestyle that you’re born that way? You have to have some scientific basis to show you have some sort of authority to comfirm your belief.

    Show me a single, validated by a second medical source that
    states there’s a homosexual gene responsible for homosexuality.
    There is none!

    Instead many if not most, non-homosexual psychiatrists, psychologists, scientists, etc. — state that homosexuality is
    a combination of: Inadequate Parental Relationships
    . Permissive Childhood Training
    . Insecurity About Sexual Identity
    . Childhood Sexual Trauma, sexual abuse or rape
    . Early Interest In Sex and Pornography
    . Youthful Masturbator And Sexual Fantasizer
    . Childhood Associates And Peer Pressure who advocate experimenting in homosexual activities. The wholesale
    promotion in movies and television that trying homosexual
    behavior is no big deal — just searching for your sexual
    orientation, etc. This is just a few items, there are
    many more.

    You also state: ( That’s why it was removed from the list of disorders by professionals: there was no reason to call it a disorder. Nothing political about it. It was only a problem for mainly deeply religious psychiatrists, 30 years ago, who were blinded by prejudice and started with the premise that homosexuality was wrong)

    My view is the opposite of your contention that deeply religious
    psychiatrists said that homosexuality was an illness…I say
    that most of those psychiatrists who voted to legitimatize
    homosexuality were probably homosexuals or bisexuals themselves.
    (No, I can’t prove it anymore than you can prove your allegation
    of religious bias).

    I post my comments because I have much to say, and I give
    references (whether you accept them or not as you act on your
    opinion) but never relate refereneces that I can check out —
    because all you have is your opinion, no facts. AM I RIGHT?

  84. Hank,

    It does not change the fact that you are a bigoted parasite who obviously prey on vulnerable gay people by offering them false salvation in the name of Jesus, and bombard us with dodgy statistics/studies/phamlets from questionable websites.

    I’m far from afraid of facing the truth, because I’m very comfortable with myself, very comfortable living in the hetrosexual society in my country. Many of my straight friends and work colleagues know about me and they are fantastic. Not once any of them have tried to ‘convert’ me because they accept me for what I am.

    I have read every comments posted by you and each time it just reinforce my belief that there is NOTHING wrong with being gay. It’s just you who have that problem.

    Afraid of the truth? Far from it. I think it’s actually YOU who are afraid of the truth, if you couldn’t handle the fact that gay people can have a normal life as straight people do.

    GAPOI = Gay And Proud Of It. :)

  85. isa kochwe 11 Mar 2009, 8:09pm

    any so called priest who can stand up and straight out lie with a straight face about the well established science facts only provides more evidence of the corrupt immorality and unconscionable professional ethical bankruptcy of himself and his organization… it’s beyond sad. it’s sick. it’s perverted.

  86. isa kocher 11 Mar 2009, 8:12pm

    sorry my last name’s kocher

  87. isa kocher 11 Mar 2009, 8:33pm

    quote:but never relate refereneces that I can check out –
    because all you have is your opinion, no facts. AM I RIGHT?

    Comment by Hank — March 11, 2009 @ 17:47.endquote.

    there are zero results of zero research that give the list hank gives as “causes” for same sex orientation. zilch. these are speculations with zero scientific standing. On the other hand absolutely no one postulates a gay “gene” so that is a straw man. What there is are twin studies. cross cultural twin studies. brain studies. a wide variety of societal studies, biological studies, and the universal presence of same sex orientation world wide among humans at a roughly similar rate and the universal presence of same sex orientation among all mammalian species. In the face of such universal occurence. the question is no longer if there is a biological basis. but what is the biological basis for same sex orientation

    When anyone starts talking about masturbation as a cause for sexual orientation and parenting. know they have been reading a lot of propaganda based on speculations from the 20s 30s and 40s long since laughed out of the serious scientific community/

  88. Hey Kocher: You say, “there are zero results of zero research that give the list hank gives as “causes” for same sex orientation. zilch. these are speculations with zero scientific standing.”

    You said, “What there is are twin studies. cross cultural twin studies. brain studies. a wide variety of societal studies, biological studies, and the universal presence of same sex orientation world wide among humans at a roughly similar rate and the universal presence of same sex orientation among all mammalian species. In the face of such universal occurence. the question is no longer if there is a biological basis. but what is the biological basis for same sex orientation (I’d like to comment
    on the above in my next post — don’t want to make this too
    long and tax your brain.

    Talk with you soon.

    In an earlier comment I gave the following reference list. Which
    of these do you believe to be false — and what do you base your
    reasoning. WOW are you going to say anything that’s published
    denouncing the legitimacy of homosecuality is false? There must
    be a gigantic conspiracy among “homophobics” worldwide in every
    newspaper, magazine, tv and radio program, websites, books,
    psychiatrists, EVERYBODY IS AGAINST YOU it seems. Poor baby!

    References for my comment on my Homosexual Lifestyle:

    References

    (1) Advocate, 1985.
    (2) Bayer, R. Homosexuality and American Psychiatry.
    (3) Bell, A. and Weinberg, M. Homosexualities: a Study of Diversity Among Men and Women. New York: Simon & Schuster, 1978.
    (4) Cameron et. al. ISIS National Random Sexuality Survey. Nebraska Med. Journal, 1985, 70, pp. 292-299.
    (5) “Changes in Sexual Behavior and Incidence of Gonorrhea.” Lancet, April 25, 1987.
    (6) Corey, L. and Holmes, K. “Sexual Transmission of Hepatitis A in Homosexual Men.” New England J. Med., 1980, pp. 435-38.
    (7) Family Research Institute, Lincoln, NE.
    (8) Fields, Dr. E. “Is Homosexual Activity Normal?” Marietta, GA.
    (9) Jay and Young. The Gay Report. Summit Books, 1979, p. 275.
    (10) Kaifetz, J. “Homosexual Rights Are Concern for Some,” Post-Tribune, 18 December 1992.
    (11) Kus, R. “Alcoholics Anonymous and Gay America.” Medical Journal of Homosexuality, 1987, 14(2), p. 254.
    (12) Lesbian News, January 1994.
    (13) Lief, H. Sexual Survey Number 4: Current Thinking on Homosexuality, Medical Aspects of Human Sexuality, 1977, pp. 110-11.
    (14) Manlight, G. et. al. “Chronic Immune Stimulation By Sperm Alloantigens.” J. American Med. Assn., 1984, 251(2), pp. 237-438.
    (15) Morton-Hunt Study for Playboy
    (16) MsKusick, L. et. al. “AIDS and Sexual Behavior Reported By Gay Men in San Francisco.” Am. J. Pub. Health, 1985, 75, pp. 493-96.
    (17) Newsweek, February 1993.
    (18) Newsweek, 4 October 1993.
    (19) Psychological Reports, 1986, 58, pp. 327-37.
    (20) Rueda, E. The Homosexual Network. Old Greenwich, Conn., The Devin Adair Company, 1982, p. 53.
    (21) San Francisco AIDS Foundation, “Can We Talk.”
    (22) San Francisco Sentinel, 27 March 1992.
    (23) Science Magazine, 18 July 1993, p. 322.
    (24) Statistical Abstract of the U.S., 1990.
    (25) “The Overhauling of Straight America.” Guide Magazine. November, 1987.
    (26) United States Census Bureau
    (27) United States Congressional Record, June 29, 1989.
    (28) University of Chicago’s Nation Research Corp.
    (29) Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders Fourth Edition, American Psychiatric Association, 1994.

  89. Hey GAPOI

    You say, “I’m far from afraid of facing the truth, because I’m very comfortable with myself, very comfortable living in the hetrosexual society in my country. Many of my straight friends and work colleagues know about me and they are fantastic. Not once any of them have tried to ‘convert’ me because they accept me for what I am.”

    Good for you if you are happy living as a homosexual. I’m not
    trying to convert anybody. I’m trying to tell those homosexuals
    who are unhappy with their lifestyle to have hope and faith, and
    not BELIEVE THE LIE “once a homosexual, always homosexual” as I’ve
    seen written at different times.
    What do you have to say to a homosexual who is unhappy with his
    lifestyle? That he’d like to change. Do you say, “Can’t happen!”
    you’ll always be homosexual so get used to it?

    What bugs me most of activist homosexuals, is that try to promote
    their lifestyle in our schools — saying it’s simply an
    alternative sexual lifestyle –nothing to be afraid of. In the
    USA there’s a strong activist homosexual agendy to make changes
    in our educational system, in our marriage system, in censoring
    religious preaching (against homosexuality as sin), lowering
    morality levels, (adultery is no big deal,

    You say, “I’m far from afraid of facing the truth, because I’m very comfortable with myself, very comfortable living in the hetrosexual society in my country. Many of my straight friends and work colleagues know about me and they are fantastic. Not once any of them have tried to ‘convert’ me because they accept me for what I am.”

    Good for you if you are happy living as a homosexual. I’m not
    trying to convert anybody. I’m trying to tell those homosexuals
    who are unhappy with their lifestyle to have hope and faith, and
    not BELIEVE THE LIE “once a homosexual, always homosexual” as I’ve
    seen written at different times.
    What do you have to say to a homosexual who is unhappy with his
    lifestyle? That he’d like to change. Do you say, “Can’t happen!”
    you’ll always be homosexual so get used to it?

    What bugs me most of activist homosexuals, is that try to promote
    their lifestyle in our schools — saying it’s simply an
    alternative sexual lifestyle –nothing to be afraid of. In the
    USA there’s a strong activist homosexual agendy to make changes
    in our educational system, in our marriage system, in censoring
    religious preaching (against homosexuality as sin), lowering
    morality levels, (adultery is no big deal, increased sexual
    diseases by trying perverted behavior), and there’s much more
    that comes out of the homosexual community.

    If you’re happy with your sex life, fine…but don’t be promoting
    it to youngsters without telling the other side of happiness –
    that is filled with health/psychological problems.

  90. Adrian: Thanks for the sites below that you offered. I’ll
    check them out and respond later.

    Remove the space between dot and ‘org’ for the following links –
    See testimonies of ex-gay survivors to hear how ex-gay ministries ruin gay people’s lives: http://www.truthwinsout. org/category/videos/survivors/
    See how ex-gay organisations distort research in these videos presented by experts http://www.truthwinsout. org/category/videos/medical-professionals/

    More here from other medical and psychiatric professionals who complain about how their research has been completely distorted for the ex-gay agenda:
    http://www.respectmyresearch. org/distortions.html

  91. Adrian: I’m having trouble responding to your comments
    telling me about those opposing sites — this is the
    3rd time I’ve tried answering you. I’ll leave off the
    actual sites you mentioned, maybe that’s the problem.
    I’ll be looking them over soon –many sites listed
    I’m always open to seeing what others are saying and
    give you my thoughts.
    Hank

  92. Hank: it may be of use to reflect that just because something is in print doesn’t mean it’s true. You ask, “Am I right?” Well no kiddo, you ain’t just because you say you are.

    You have stated in so many words, “Homosexuals prey on children” above (post 22) – what is your creditable source for that little gem of wisdom?

    And, as has been asked before countless times now (but you avoid answering): what axe does this supposedly happy heterosexual have to grind that he’s drowning discussions on a gay forum with torrents of bigotry? Why do you appear to be so threatened by the idea that homosexuals may consider themselves happy?

  93. Hank,

    I actually do not tell people – straight or gay – how to live their lives. Nor do I tell people who I suspect to be gay that they must start living the homosexual lifestyle just because I am convinced that it is the right thing for them to do so. What they do with their own lives are none of my business.

    You say: “I’m not trying to convert anybody. I’m trying to tell those homosexuals who are unhappy with their lifestyle to have hope and faith, and not BELIEVE THE LIE “once a homosexual, always homosexual” as I’ve seen written at different times.”

    You are almost contradicting yourself Hank, only your method is a bit sly. You see unhappy and unguarded homosexuals as an opportunity to influence them and to encourage them give up their sinful lifestyle in order to make a new lifestyle according to what you believe to be the right thing to do – i.e. in the eyes of Jesus and God.

    As for gay people running an “agenda” to promote the homosexual lifestyle in American schools, I couldn’t possibly comment on this as I would have to be there myself to watch exactly what is going on (have you ever attended to any of their roadshow in order to observe – or are you relying on hearsay and rumours from angry parents?)

    My experience with gay education in British schools is that the LGBT organisations promote awareness, better understanding, encourage tolerance, break down barriers/prejudices, and to encourage respect among peer groups. Telling kids it’s fine to sleep with a member of same sex was never on the agenda, nor it is our place to tell them this.

  94. Hey Rehan and GAPOI

    What I’d like to get an answer to a question I’ve asked numerous
    times but never gotten an answer in any form.
    I make posts that state there are many problems living as
    a homosexual…lists of many items…whether you believe them
    or not is another problem.
    BUT….please list all your positive results from living the
    homosexual life. I don’t want opinions, I would like to see
    facts by authoritive sources what the benefits of being
    homosexual in this lifetime.
    Is that too difficult of a request?

  95. In Matthew 10:22, the supposed Jesus of Nazareth reportedly warned his followers to expect hatred and mockery. Any sane person would consider the devout, fanatical Christian’s beliefs to be ludicrous enough to warrant this. And with persistent spammers like Hank, intent on lying for Jesus, expressing this becomes a moral obligation.

    You cut and pasted an article, full of unsubstantiated and distorted findings, which you found on a religious website (an extremist pamphlet, itself based on flawed work of Nancy brown of Exodus). It goes without saying, it has never appeared in any reputable publication – enough for any sane person to discard this as junk. It’s about as useful as a Chick tract.

    You saw a lot of citations, and as far as you are concerned, they fitted your warped views, so that makes them true. The sign of someone who has never learnt to think for himself in the first place. I ask you again: how do you know the article to be true? Have you tested any possible causes, other than ‘homosexuality’? Have you ever learnt to check facts?

    You don’t know where any of the sources came from, you don’t know anything about the 31 citations you re-posted. It’s not my job to refute them, it’s your job to validate them. Prove they are accurately quoted, for starters. I’m not wasting my time on this (in fact Tim Kuchaid and Jim Burroway have debunked much of this very article on Exgaywatch and BoxTurtlebulletin.) The very fact that, most of the citations are 20 years old or older – many are 30 years old – makes the article redundant.

    Lets do a small test on the citations. Please tell me about the magazine ‘Psychological Reports’. Who publishes it? Who reads it? How influential is it? Is it well respected? What do you know about Dr E Fields? On citation 10: Who is ‘J Kaifetz’? What qualifications – psychiatric, medical etc – does he have do analyse suicide statistics? What is the ‘Medical Journal of Homosexuality’? Please find me the original citation from this magazine, where it says that 33% of gays are alcoholics. I want to see what was really said. Also please provide details of the publisher, and a website. And its quality rating. Have you checked any of the citations for yourself? Have you checked that the facts haven’t been misrepresented? No of course not. You haven’t a clue what you’re talking about.

    You are also clearly incapable of understanding basic English. Let me repeat: no gay person needs to “justify” anything, especially to a big mouth like you. Since there is nothing wrong with homosexuality, as verified by all professional associations in the Western world, there is no need for ‘positive’ studies on homosexuality, any more than there is a need to study left-handed or blue-eyed people. There is no benefit to being gay, like there is no benefit to being blue eyed. It just is. Gay people don’t need to justify their existence, least of all to hate-fuelled fanatics like you.

    To repeat, it is not remotely interesting whether there is a ‘gene’ – I make no comment on this. Learn to read properly, and stop asking this uninteresting question, which has no relevance at all.

    Furthermore, your claim that all the medical, psychological and psychiatric associations are all conspiring against you is nothing more than your opinion. You have still to provide a reason why you think homosexuality is a disorder. You ludicrously post a list of causes, which are true for straight as much as for gay people. There are many straight people who grew up on too much porn, and every normal person enjoys masturbation. As for inadequate parental relationships – then, why are we not seeing millions more gay people? And how do you know what ‘the majority of ‘non-homosexual psychiatrists, psychologists, scientists, etc.’ think on the matter?

    The whole world is conspiring against you, isn’t it Hank? But how can you be sure? Have you ever asked any medical professional’s opinion? The fact is every professional organisation says homosexuality is natural, nothing to be ashamed of. The dissenters on this did so for religious reasons, as admitted by Narth – which most certainly is a religious organisation, as you can see from the testimonies and half-baked articles on their site. They earn their keep from ex-gay ministries and, unsurprisingly have had nothing published in a peer reviewed journal.

    I ask again – if you are so sure you have a case against the complete medical profession, why are you not approaching the lancet, or the BMJ with this information? Why waste your efforts on a newsthread on PinkNews? Are you scared of approaching the experts, which clearly, you consider yourself to be?

    You are right you definitely have lots to say – all prejudice, based on an unprovable premise – that there is something inherently wrong about homosexuality – but it is nothing but rhetoric. I don’t need to have statistics saying it’s OK to be gay – you’ve got to come up with something solid, which you have not done, because the citations are either made up or skewed. So, all we have is ….your opinion.

    What was that about repeating a lie so many times and people will believe it?

  96. Mihangel apYrs 12 Mar 2009, 8:25am

    I’ve said before: you can’t debate this with fundie Xians – they will lie, obfuscate and confuse the argument. They do not even accept the simple premise that being gay is what one is, belonging to a religion is what one believes.

    It’s a waste of breath that is better put into defending and promoting our rights through politics and law.

  97. Hahahaha, oh Hank, bless! Even a 13-year-old could see that avoiding a question by asking a different one is a cheap diversionary tactic. Still, you are like a 13-year-old in that you appear to see life through a veil of sex. Let me try and put this in terms you will understand:

    1. I’m of average height (for the UK): I don’t live an average-height life, it’s just one aspect of who I am.

    2. I have greying black hair: I don’t live a greying-black-hair life, it’s just one aspect of who I am.

    3. I’m homosexual: I don’t live a homosexual life, it’s just one aspect of who I am.

    THERE’S NO SUCH THING AS THE HOMOSEXUAL LIFE! [Sorry about the capitals, Adrian – needs must, sometimes.] I know gay men in many countries, from airline stewards, restaurateurs and musicians to academics, writers and investment bankers, some single, some in open relationships, some in exclusive ones – they have only two things in common: they are sexually attracted to men, and they know me. THERE IS NOTHING ELSE THAT MAKES THEIR “LIFESTYLE” DIFFERENT FROM NON-GAY PEOPLE!

    The cataclysmic wars and genocides of the past (and for that matter most other) centuries have been the work of straight men: I don’t consider that solely the result of the Straight Lifestyle, because THAT WOULD BE STUPID, WOULDN’T IT?

    I suggest you get out your dictionary, if you have one, and look up ‘syllogism’. Then please avoid using them thereafter.

    And grow up.

  98. aprYs – that’s also true: but the repetitive ranting, raving monologues above just show how faith rots the mind. What must it have been like for teenagers dragged off against their will to ex-gay boot camps? Well, imagine weeks of the above and now you have your answer.

    Christians have been at war with Science and Reason, ever since St. Paul invented the religion itself. It is, of course, Christians who were responsible for the dark ages – and had they the chance, they would lynch the academics and intellectuals, burn down the libraries and universities just like they did in the 5th century. Reason to religion, after all, is like daylight is to a vampire.

    (Needs indeed must Rehan. Hank argues like a child; he must be treated as one.)

  99. Simon Murphy 12 Mar 2009, 11:39am

    Hank – you accept that ‘god’ is an evil bastard and a genocidal pig by murdered the first born babies of Egyptians and that Hitler was inspired by ‘god’. I used to own a bible. Until I realised that the bible is no better than Mein Kampf by Hitler. I then used the pages of the bible to wipe my ass.

    Listen people – stop reacting to facist sympathisers like Hank. He’s an insance nutcase and a facist sympathiser.

  100. I don’t know Simon. The reason why I won’t let the document – which even Exodus removed from its own website 2 years ago – posted by Hank go is this: the references that Hank repeatedly posts are alarming. It’s not merely ‘junk’. Some of it is even based on neo-Nazi propaganda. I was hoping he could have come to that realization himself, and at least attempt to retract his support of it publicly.

    Here’s the background on footnote 8, Edward Fields, for instance, courtesy of the Anti- Defamation League:

    Born: 1932; Residence: Marietta, Georgia
    Ideology: White supremacy, anti-Semitism, anti-Communism
    Publication: The Truth At Last (formerly The Thunderbolt)
    Affiliations: National Alliance (since 2003), Council of Conservative Citizens. Previously affiliated with: The Columbians; The Anti-Jewish Party; National States Rights Party; New Order; Knights of the KKK; America First Party
    Influences: Julius Streicher, Eugene Talmadge (segregationist Georgia governor), J.B. Stoner.

    There is also an interview with him on neo-nazi website Stormfront.org. which I have no intention of looking at.
    +++++++++++++++++

    There are many parents who have sincere objections to if and how students should be made aware of LGBT issues in school (and that does not mean practical demonstrations of how to have sex). Let’s debate that in an adult manner without relying on hate propaganda spewed out by KKK members and holocaust deniers.

  101. Yo Adrian: You ask a lot of good questions and I’ll reply on
    a couple of different posts.

    You ask for verification of some of my references
    I checked the most professional ones — sad to no luck:

    American Psychiatric Association — does not permit individuals
    to access information — you have to be a APA member

    Medical Journal of Homosexulaity –does not permit individuals
    to access information — you have to be a MJH member.

    New England Journal of Medicine — does not permit individuals
    to access information — you have to be a NEJM member.

    So, if you argue with me about how they’re being used as a reference in my comments — nothing I can do about it.

    And if you don’t like other references like Newsweek, Science Playboy, San Francisco Sentinel, and the actual books named,– well why don’t you do a little work and look them up and show me where they’re wrong — if you truly are interested
    in disproving me. But I’m sure you won’t take the time and trouble
    to do anything extra on your part to show that I post bogus
    comments.

    YOU SAY, ” because the citations are either made up or skewed.”

    Can you show me where you found your evidence that what you say
    is true? Or it just your (biased?) opinion?

    YOU SAY, “I ask again – if you are so sure you have a case against the complete medical profession, why are you not approaching the lancet, or the BMJ with this information? Why waste your efforts on a newsthread on PinkNews? Are you scared of approaching the experts, which clearly, you consider yourself to be?”

    I am not a psychologist or counselor and don’t have the time or
    means to compete with huge organizations of scientists — I wish
    I did, so I leave the time-consuming research and studies to
    be done by qualified individuals and agencies. I try to do my
    best by reading various pro-con sites on sexuality, and what I
    can say that homosexuality is a very complex behavior and there’s
    much more information to come out every year.

    YOU SAY, “To repeat, it is not remotely interesting whether there is a ‘gene’ – I make no comment on this. Learn to read properly, and stop asking this uninteresting question, which has no relevance at all.

    How can you make such an outlandish statement. Can’t you see
    the implications if there is no “homosexual gene?” If there is
    none, then by sheer extrapolation, that means there are other
    factors contributing to having a person be a homosexual — all
    these other non-bilogical/physiological factors that may indeed
    be partially responsible in varying degrees.
    If there’s no “gene” determining homosexuality, what then does
    contribute? family relationships, psychological deficiencies,
    peer groups, sexual abuse, porography, enviornmental toxic
    conditions, etc.

    You certainly should have an open mind that
    something beyond a gene is contributing –what then is going on?
    If not biologically inborn, then those contributing factors can
    be defined and changed, so a person won’t be “born homosexual.”

  102. I am asking you to defend your position, and defend the statements in the article, and you refuse to do so. If you can’t explain the relevance of the citations, if you know nothing about where the statistics come from, if you know nothing about the people who provided that research, and how qualified they are, then how do you know this is a credible source? I’m asking this until I get an answer.

    Were you aware that you were citing a neo-nazi KKK white supremicist as a reliable source?

    You admit, to not being qualified in psychology, and you have little understanding about scientific method. How are you in a position to discriminate between credible evidence, and junk? On what basis do you constantly reject anything that all the medical professions have to say about homosexuality? That can only be based on your opinion.

    It must be remembered also, that there are many gay and lesbian people who come from the most religious and conservative backgrounds, too. Whether it’s in rural Tennessee, or deeply Calvinist Zeeland in the Netherlands. And these people – brought up in environments where homosexuality isn’t even mentioned – are most unlikely to have been influenced by the media, by broken families or pornography.

    And why do you limit your research to ‘pro-con’ websites? You can also pick up the phone and call, or email the APA and others incidentally, if you’re not happy with their answer.

    And also, no one can stop churches preaching against homosexuality if they so wish. That, like my right to persuade Christians to walk away from religion – is protected by the First Amendment as you are well aware.

  103. “You certainly should have an open mind that something beyond a gene is contributing –what then is going on? If not biologically inborn, then those contributing factors can be defined and changed, so a person won’t be “born homosexual.” ”

    ============================================
    That has got to be the most utter garbage I have ever heard in my entire life! It’s much worse than all the drivel coming from Jehovah Witnesses and the Pope put together.

    Aah, now we know what your true intentions are, Hank. You do not want people to be “born homosexual”, so you want to eradicate any possible contributing factors to stop this from happening. Hmm, where have I heard this before….? That’s right, I believe a certain Herr Hitler and his Nazi cronies tried to do the same thing by attempting to create a pure ‘Aryan’ race.

    This is my final say on this thread, because it is clear that this is going nowhere as you keep using the same old arguments over again and again. Your continued use of “copy and paste” spamming is frankly, becoming a bore. It is also obvious that you will cling onto your bigoted views to the very bitter end, without any regard or consideration for other people’s feelings.

    Please crawl back under the rock you came from.

  104. Yo Adrian:

    YOU SAY, “It must be remembered also, that there are many gay and lesbian people who come from the most religious and conservative backgrounds”

    You’re just like other heathens, you know nothing about the
    Holy Bible and Jesus Christ. You’re merely spouting words from
    others.

    What does coming from a religous background have to do with intimately knowing and following the words of Jesus Christ.
    From what many preachers are saying the church is weak, almost never reading the Holy Bible, not being “born again” as Jesus said one must be to understand the Holy Bible.

    “Not everyone who says to Me, Lord, Lord, will enter the kingdom
    of heaven but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
    “Many will say to me on “that day”, Lord, Lord did we not
    prophesy in Your name and in Your name cast our demons, and in Your
    name perform many miracles?
    “And I will declare to them, “I never knew you: Depart from me,
    you who practice lawlessness.” SO DON’T GO BY WHAT PEOPLE TELL
    YOU — IT’S WHAT THE DO WITH THEIR LIFE THAT COUNTS FOR JESUS!

    Being a church member means nothing. Judas was a follower of
    Jesus and turned out to be the worse person in his lifetime. He
    was never a believer in Jesus, yet he walked with Him for 3 years.

    Your reasoning is worthless — unless you understand Jesus Christ
    in His deepest meaning, so-called Christians are still being
    deceived and will enter into Hell, not Heaven. Too many people
    are totally ignorant of what a “true Christian” is.

    YOU SAY “You admit, to not being qualified in psychology, and you have little understanding about scientific method. How are you in a position to discriminate between credible evidence, and junk? On what basis do you constantly reject anything that all the medical professions have to say about homosexuality? That can only be based on your opinion”.

    I spent 6 years in college, 2 in post-graduate, so I think I’m able
    to differ between valid and junk information — give me some
    credit from graduting and getting 2 degrees, regardless of what
    you think of my position on homosexuality.

    YOU SAY, “And why do you limit your research to ‘pro-con’ websites? You can also pick up the phone and call, or email the APA and others incidentally, if you’re not happy with their answer.”

    I’m certain if I did that you wouldn’t believe anything I said
    unless I made a recording of the talk with them — so why
    bother, your mind is made up and nothing I say, do ,write, refer
    etc. will make you change your mind. Being a homosexual, your
    psyche demands that you reject anything that goes against
    “who you are,” — you’re not able to reject yourself even if the
    evidence was indisputable — who are we kidding? You are
    locked into thinking that solidifies “who you are.” In your
    human nature you cannot think “outside the box” of your
    homosexuality regardless of your oppossition says.

    I have a quesstion that I would love to get on a national survey:

    If parents who were pregnant, had an ABSOLUTE CHOICE to have a homosexual or a heterosexual child — I’d love to know what
    percentage would say they’d like a homosexual son/daughter or a heterosexual son/child. I know this would never happen because of “politically correct” censorship, but the question is intriguing don’t you think?

  105. HEY GAPOI
    You don’t have to answer as your stated above, but I can’t let
    your misstatment go,

    YOU SAY,”You do not want people to be “born homosexual”, so you want to eradicate any possible contributing factors to stop this from happening.
    If you’d paid attention to my comments, you’re saying that you’re
    “born homosexual”, not me because I don’t think people are
    born homosexual because there’s no homosexual gene involved.
    Look at all the other factors that I’ve listed before — people
    “become” homosexual because of all those other factors I’ve
    listed numerous times. DISPROVE ME — show me studies that
    definitely show that a homosexual gene creates homosexuals without
    any doubt –name me one authoritative study that’s been confirmed
    by a second legitimate medical sources that replected the findings
    in scientific literature — there is none and never will be — there are too many influencing factors that most medical people
    believe.

  106. To repeat, you admit, to not being qualified in psychology, and you have little understanding about scientific method. How are you in a position to discriminate between credible evidence, and junk? On what basis do you constantly reject anything that all the medical professions have to say about homosexuality? That can only be based on your opinion.

    That you ‘spent six years in college’ does not excuse you from the obligation to defend the citations. You didn’t do any research into the article, and didn’t even know one of the sources was neo nazi KKK literature.

    I know nothing about astrology, or alchemy, yet I know they are nonsense. Similarly, I don’t need to know the Bible – written in the infancy of civilisation, before we knew any science, medicine, astronomy, to discard it.

    Of course, it all comes down to your belief that gay people will go to hell. It is amazing how Christians claim to be so humble, yet act with such incredible arrogance. Not only do you claim there is a supreme intelligence at work in the universe, you also claim to be on intimate terms with its mind. You even claim to know whom I should sleep with. How do you know this information? What are your sources? How do you know such a place exists?

    Do you have a reason for your beliefs, or is it that you were simply brought up to believe them?

    Indeed, — so why bother, your mind is made up and nothing I say, do ,write, refer etc. will make you change your mind. Being a Christian fundamentalist, your psyche demands that you reject anything that goes against “what you were programmed to believe as a young child, before you learnt to reason for yourself” — you’re not able to doubt any of your beliefs even if the evidence was indisputable — who are we kidding? You are locked into thinking that solidifies “who you are.” Your superstition is so entrenched, you cannot think “outside the box” of your
    Christianity regardless of your oppossition says.

    You’re atheist about thousands of gods, just like me. When you think logically, there is no more evidence for the judeo-Christian god than there is for Poseidon, Mithras, Vishna, Allah, and so on – all you have to do is go that one small step further. The Road to Damascus is a 2-way street. You can free yourself from superstition any time you like. Remember Hank – change is possible, and I’m happy to help you break free from this bronze age nonsense.

    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    To quote the great 11th century Persian philosopher, Omar Khayyam:

    And do you think that unto such as you,
    A maggot-minded, starved, fanatic crew,
    God gave the secret, and denied it me?—
    Well, well, what matters it! believe that too!!!

    How appropriate those words are.

  107. Mihangel apYrs 12 Mar 2009, 9:26pm

    @Hank

    I don’t particularly care now why I am gay. Before I met my partner 34 years ago there were times when being straight would have been easier, but since then NO.

    I don’t believe in your (or any) god, nor ascribe to your notions of sin or morality, sowhy should I allow my life to be circumscribed by these rules.

    he LAW serves 2 purposes:
    protect society (and LGBT people don’t damage society through their sexuality)

    protect individuals (but only if the are incompetent to make informed decisions)

    Your Bible, ethos etc have no place in ordering society: keep it to your church and personal life

  108. “If parents who were pregnant” [sic]? Are you tacitly advocating lesbian parentage now, Hank?

  109. “…the findings in scientific literature — there is none and never will be” – Hank, is your God complex overtaking you perhaps?

    BTW, I notice that despite being asked twice already, you still don’t come up for an authoritative academic source for your statement “Homosexuals prey on children”. Why is that?

  110. Yo Adrian:

    You have so many errors in your statement, it’ll take long to
    correct you, but have patience.
    By the way, where is Omar Khayyam now that he’s dead? My
    Jesus arose from the grave after 3 days and walked with
    His disciples for over 40 days talking to them and to the
    public — doing miracles before returning to heaven. What
    did Omar do?

    YOU SAY, ” Being a Christian fundamentalist, your psyche demands that you reject anything that goes against “what you were programmed to believe as a young child, before you learnt to reason for yourself”

    Entirely wrong, In my early childhood I didn’t follow any
    religous belief. When I went to College, I considered myself
    an atheist and for over 40 years never went to church, never
    read the Bible and committed every sin a lustful man could — I
    hurt many women emotionally and didn’t really think much about it.
    But when I started thinking about my worldview –what was I
    about, what meaning did existence have for me, what was my future
    when I died — it was entirely selfish — lived my life for pleasure alone.
    I soon felt that as a human with intelligence there must be something other than all this when it’s over.
    I started reading the Bible, read writings by scholars who had
    studied ancient writings (they could read, write and interpret
    7,8 ancient languages) and they wrote deep understanding of what
    archeological findings discovered in Israel, Turkey, Egypt,
    Iraq, etc. and they showed the validation of the Holy Bible’s
    writings — without error in anything the Bible said. (I’ll
    get to the confirmation of science through the Bible later).

    AFter studying the Bible, reading authoritative works by some
    of the greatest researchers in archeology, verifing everything in
    the Bible –never a contradition –never!, I spent much time
    contemplating what God offered to mere mortals who had an open
    mind to studying His word — He revealed Truth as only God knows it — far deeper than philosophers or other so-called gods who
    have proved to be inferior after their deaths.
    No my friend, I know who I am and where I’m going when I die —
    without fear. I don’t live by human nature’s power.

    I read the Bible and fully accept that homosexuality will be very
    dominant in the world — just like Revelation says will happen.
    But my knowledge goes far beyond that — into the future, and
    I’m not afraid of what our world will be like in years to come.
    We can see its seeds in today’s behavior in all avenues of behavior.
    No…homosexuality is just sin justlike adultery, greed, corruption, idoltry. gluttony, hate, injustice, and many more
    sins.

    By the way I found this professional site, showing that
    homosexuality is complex with many factors involved.
    You can see this is a non-religious site. You can
    Google them to see for yourself.

    1. Helen W. Wilson, PhD, Assistant Professor of Psychology at Rosalind Franklin University of Medicine and Science, and Cathy Spatz Widom, PhD, Professor of Criminal Justice and Psychology at John Jay College of Criminal Justice at The City University of New York (CUNY), wrote the following information in their Jan. 7, 2009 article published by Archives of Sexual Behavior, “Does Physical Abuse, Sexual Abuse, or Neglect in Childhood Increase the Likelihood of Same-sex Sexual Relationships and Cohabitation? A Prospective 30-year Follow-up”:
    “Existing cross-sectional research suggests associations between physical and sexual abuse in childhood and same-sex sexual orientation in adulthood. [Our] study prospectively examined whether abuse and/or neglect in child-hood were associated with increased likelihood of same-sex partnerships in adulthood. The sample included physically abused… sexually abused… and neglected children (ages 0-11) with documented cases during 1967-1971 who were matched with non-maltreated children and followed into adulthood. At approximately age 40, participants (483 women and 461 men) were asked about romantic cohabitation and sexual partners, in the context of in-person interviews covering a range of topics…

    [The results revealed that] men with documented histories of childhood sexual abuse were significantly more likely than controls to report ever having had same-sex sexual partners… These prospective findings provide tentative evidence of a link between childhood sexual abuse and same-sex partnerships among men.”

  111. Hey Rehan:

    YOU SAY, “If parents who were pregnant” [sic]? Are you tacitly advocating lesbian parentage now, Hank?”

    Hey get with it….now a wife and/or husband now say, “we’re
    pregnant.” It’s a nice way of showing committment — just
    like you show to your lover/partner. Don’t be jealous because
    heterosexuals show compassion/happiness when expecting a child.
    Something you’ll never have a chance to do.

    YOU SAY,” “…the findings in scientific literature — there is none and never will be” – Hank, is your God complex overtaking you perhaps?

    NO…it’s simply that sin doesn’t change — what was sin according
    to God will always be sin, and homosexuality is on that list.
    Your homosexual mindset doesn’t permit you to think otherwise.

    BTW, I notice that despite being asked twice already, you still don’t come up for an authoritative academic source for your statement “Homosexuals prey on children”. Why is that?

    I’ll answer this question soon with facts/figues from wuthoritative
    sources — I have other things to do besides teaching you about
    homosexual crimes.

    It’s night here — time to give your site some quiet time.

    Sleep well.

  112. Sin is a meaningless concept. The key question, as asked by Post 105 above, is: who is harmed? If you then say, god does not distinguish between one sin or the other, that eliminates the Bible as a source of morality. You tell the families of victims of the shootings in Stuttgart and in Florida this week, that the gunman was no more immoral than 2 gay guys, who mean no harm, in bed together. Can you hear yourself honestly saying that?

    As for the question ‘Where is Omar Khayyam now’? Well, he’s dead. That’s all there is to say. We are going to die, too. That makes us so inimaginably lucky. To be here, now in this tiny window of life, instead of all the other genetic combinations that could have been in our place. We were dead for billions of years, we will be dead for billions more. That in itself, is enough to inspire to live life to the fullest – as happily as possible, while we can.

    But you cannot know what happened to Jesus, let aone be on close terms with his mind. To claim there is anything more than this life is nothing more than wishful thinking. It is beyond the capabilities of the human mind to know this.

    You do not accept that St Thomas Aquinas levitated around Notre Dame in Paris, as Catholics believe. Neither, I assume, do you accept tales of Mohammed’s visions from Archangel Gabriel. We agree here. But what reason do you have to make an exception for your preferred miracles, and not these? Catholic and Islamic followers are just as certain as you that theirs is the only truth.

    (As for the book of Revelation, the book which inspired David Koresh, and which gleefully looks forward to world destruction – I am glad this poison is not true!)

    You seem to have had remorse for hurting many women. You sought meaning in life – admirable. It is possible to do these things without invoking the supernatural. There will always be love, solidarity, humour, art, science, irony, friendship, good food, fine whisky and beer – all the things that make life so great, without any need for any deity, irrespective of whether one is gay or not. I would not dream of saying this universe, with its collapsed stars, failed galaxies, and almost entirely uninhabitable solar system, was made especially for us. 99% of all species living on this insignificant planet are now extinct. We are not the centre of this; hardly even in the outer suburbs of the cosmos.

    Just because you have intelligence, why ‘must there be more than this’? If a highly complex entity such as god existed forever, why can’t a relatively simple molecule of DNA exist forever also?

    Frankly Hank, there are seriously important things to worry about. Homosexuality is not one of them. Scientists predict a 4 degree temperature rise over the next 100 years. Apart from the destruction of the rainforests in Brazil and Africa, it is set to bring about near total desertification of the USA.

  113. “These prospective findings provide tentative evidence of a link between childhood sexual abuse and same-sex partnerships among men.”

    So this study shows that men who suffered from sexual abuse in their childhood are more likely to report same-sex partnerships as adults (although I would note that does not necessarily mean they identify as gay). And your point is caller? Exactly how does this study show that gay and lesbian people are a danger to children?

    I would also add that you are right(ish) in saying there is no proven definitive cause of homosexuality – there are a lot of theories, of which a gay gene is only one. Conversely, there is no proven evidence of the cause of heterosexuality – so it’s a bit of a moot point.

    You also seem to be confused as to what define something as a pathology – just because something is innate, does not mean is cannot be a disease. Just look at genetic disorders like cystic fibrosis.

    Perhaps the APA’s decision to declassify homosexuality as a mental disorder was based on evidence that discrimination and stigmatisation of homosexuality causes ill health – “minority stress” is a huge area of health psychology, I suggest you read into it. But then, you don’t appear to read any up-to-date literature unless it agrees with your opinion.

    And AdrianT, I wouldn’t bother trying to explain global warming to Hank either – he probably wouldn’t get it. . .

  114. “I’ll answer this question soon with facts/figues from
    authoritative sources — I have other things to do besides teaching you about homosexual crimes.”

    …you mean post spam on other sites, too? You’re in no position to teach about anything, since when challenged, you refuse to defend or explan any of the data you dump up here – where it came from, how the research was done (citing Playboy magazine, for goodness’ sake), how you know the facts to be true. These are basic challenges that anyone submitting a thesis would relish, at peer review stage. If you can give credible answers, then your argument stands to reason, and you would make history. But you will not be questioned.

    But here is the problem: you base all your beliefs on faith, which teaches you not to question, ask for evidence or check facts. Normal people base their beliefs on doubt. In your world, everyone has to disprove your lazy assertions – it doesn’t work like that.
    If your degree was in any other field than bible studies, you would have learnt that. It’s your job to prove your theory, and you have all your work ahead of you.

    You have no qualifications in psychology, yet claim to be better informed than all the professional people in the western world. You say, you leave the time-consuming research and studies to
    be done by qualified individuals. Yet qualified individuals say there is nothing wrong with homosexuality. It does not cause people to commit crimes. Case closed.

    I don’t need to read data – of all the gay people I come across, no one fits this crazy impression you paint. The evidence from everyday life is overwhelmingly against you.

    Of course, this is London, where people are relatively tolerant and can come out very easily, where people have protections against bigotry, where anyone sacking a gay person for being gay would be sued big time. And instead of being forced out of their communities to live in ghettos, like gay people had to in the 1970s, we just blend in. (There is still prejudice of course, and mostly in religious communities.)

    And all those prejudices disappear, just like when streetlights appeared, people realised witches didn’t exist. Where you are, that’s clearly not the case, and you can play on people’s fears and ignorance, about gay people being sex predators and other nonsense. Over here, you will just be laughed at, as predicted in Matt 10:22.

  115. To all

    LET US EXAMINE THE PRINCIPLE OF NOT GIVING THE HOLY TO DOGS OR CASTING PEARLS BEFORE SWINE.

    Of course, the words of Jesus are symbolical. We know that people were not literally casting pearls before swine.

    1. The meaning is easy to understand: “Do not persist in offering what is sacred to those who have no appreciation for it.” a. Also, Jesus shows that such efforts may only bring harm to ourselves. Matt. 7:6b b. Many people, not only do not appreciate spiritual things, but belittle and rail against them. c. And, not only that, some will persecute those who try to bring the sacred things to them.

    2. Thus, the “dogs” and “swine” here stand for these unappreciative and evil people of the world. a. “Dogs” are always spoken of in an unfavorable sense in the Bible. (1) Phil. 3:2 – The dogs here probably refer to the Judaizers, the false teachers who were insisting on circumcision in order to be saved. (2) Rev. 22:15 – In this verse and along with Deut. 23:18, it appears that “dogs” refer to homosexuals.

    3. That which is “holy” and the “pearls,” of course, refer to God’s holy word. Also, it can refer to our spiritual sacrifices which are offered to God. a. A dog could care less whether his food came from the altar or the garbage can. b. The swine have no appreciation for the beauty and value of pearls, and would simply trample them under his feet

    Goodbye all.

    Hank

  116. …..And out comes the ‘poor persecuted little me’ card….. The only reason you turned to all this Hank is because you were a social failure and you needed a religous valeting service to whitewash over the past and pretend it didn’t happen.

    You make accusations and fail to defend or explan any of the ‘data’ you dump up here. It shows you just trawl the Net for something that fits your prejudices without knowing where it came from, how the research was done (citing Playboy magazine, Paul Cameron, neo-nazi / KKK hate-speech pamphlets, 30 year old data), and being unable to say how you know the facts are accurately reported, or why the facts are significant. So, your message is: ‘believe me or depart into the eternal fire,’ the same evil ultimatum as bin Laden’s suicide bombers.

  117. Hahahaha (again) – well done, Hank! “I’ll answer this question soon with facts/figues from wuthoritative sources — I have other things to do besides teaching you about homosexual crimes.”

    After several hundred words on “homosexual crimes” already, your disclaimer when pressed speaks volumes for your reliability.

    Thanks.

  118. God, that made depressing reading. It’s OK saying Hank’s a loony but I’m guessing he’s not alone in these mad beliefs. Many people have them to far lesser extents. Frightening.
    Hank, if you’re still reading this, maybe your next project could be trawling the net and libraries for all that old information that ‘proved’ that white people were superior? Yes, you’ll find it somewhere, spread by people whose only motivation was insecurity and hate.
    You say you’re here to research how we think. Well, you’re wasting your time. Your mind’s so closed that I doubt one iota of what we’ve said will penetrate it.
    Your statistics are so wild as to be laughable. I’m sure Hitler had similar ‘proof’ when he went around exterminating ‘dangerous’ minorities.

  119. Hank’s experience, and the avalanche of white noise on here sums up why religion is evil, corrupt, self-centred, ramshackle, incohrent, immoral, oppressive nonsense. Here is someone who – by his own admission – was a social failure. He believes that the torturing and gruesome death of some other person, 2000 years ago redeems him of these offences – a whitewash, and cop-out. Surely the moral, responsible thing to do, is to apologise to the people he hurt? Hank not interested in doing good, he’s interested in only one thing: for ‘eternal life’. Falling for the great lie ‘he who endures to the end will be saved’, he’ll believe anything, and do anything, and say anything to get it, whether it’s lying about scientific evidence against gays, or accepting that the world is no more than 6,000 years old (itself a sign of madness).

    When any attempt is made to engage with a true believer, the problem is they all believe in a unique god of their very own; a personal saviour. So we’re arguing against wish-thinking, nonsense, ignorance, fear – and most of all – servility.
    All questions of knowledge and morality are handed over to a Big Brother in the sky who will convict you of thought crime, and who watches over you every moment of your life. Anyone who wishes this to be true is masochistic to the core. It’s never enough to simply believe this, everyone else must too. They come offering ‘love’ – but look at the poisonous hatred and evil threats of eternal hell spouted out if you reject it. (If the only thing that stops you from raping, killing, torturing, stealing is god’s will, then you are inherently immoral).

    This all answers why people who think they are acting with divine permission are the most vicious and violent opponents, whether it’s orthodox thugs at Jerusalem pride, death cults in Waco Texas or bombers in Baghdad.

    There are thousands of people like this in evangelical and pentecostal churches across Britain by the way, and I hope if those like hank are reading this, they consider the possibility that they too can break free from it.

    Hank sought goodness and instead it’s given him selfishness, hate, ignorance, intolerance, abolition of personal responsibility and deceit. Actually I think it’s reinforced the qualities he despised about himself and made him seek religion in the first place.

    If anyone wants to come on here and argue like this, then let them first advance a satisfactory case for their god being superior to anyone else’s. And don’t make claims you can’t defend.

  120. Oh, christ, not Hank again. You can’t be serious, you’re still peddling that b*llox to see can you get a few more ex-gay converts?

    Folks, don’t bother with this troll… he comes in here on occasion looking to bait individuals under the auspices of “dialogue and understanding”, but he wants no such thing. If you don’t agree with his view on creationisms and ex-gays, then he will brand you a paedophile and cream the bible quotes at you with all the fever of a raving lunatic. He climes to be dying of lung cancer, as if that’s an excuse for this stupidity…. he obviously has the slowest acting lung cancer on earth, because he’s still here spouting his foolishness and Fisher Price brand of “stats” on homosexuality.

    Don’t allow his the benefit of civilised conversation, ignore him… he’s just a sad old fool who thinks because he went “ex-gay” (I laugh at the very suggestion of that) we all have to do the same.

  121. Poor old Hank. His psychology and psychiatry is well dodgy and his theology is worse. If you look at the most concentrated example of God’s rules as expressed in the Old Testament – the Ten Commandments – there’s not a word about homosexuality in any of them. Skip forward to the New Testament and Jesus Christ never saw fit to comment on homosexuality one way or another in the gospels. In fact, if you look at the Bible, there are many hundreds of admonitions about straight sex, something like 40 on gay sex and two on lesbians. Taking the Bible at its word, God has least problems with lesbians and some issues with gays – but has humungous problems with the straight community. If a straight person tries to follow all the rules set out in the Old Testament, it’s virtually impossible to have sex unless you want to be stoned to death afterwards.

  122. Will is right. Of course there is no chance to ‘debate’ with a an ignorant crank and malicious liar like this. I stress malicious liar, with particular respect to post nr. 100:

    “You ask for verification of some of my references. I checked the most professional ones — sad to no luck: Medical Journal of Homosexulaity –does not permit individuals to access information — you have to be a MJH member.”

    I asked this because no such publication exists in the first place. Of course, he hasn’t got the brains to do any basic fact checking for himself, but that’s beside the point. It just shows how hollow his message is. It’s important to tell people like this what we think of them. We get to ridicule him, he gets to feel persecuted like his supposed saviour – a win-win situation. And I’m curious to see how these kooks think anyway. (‘the burden of proof lies with everyone but themselves’) The bizarre dialogue above shows they are incapable of reasoning and cannot think.

    If he comes back, keep asking why he seeks out a KKK white- supremicist hate-leaflet as ‘evidence’. Still no answer…

  123. Iain MacLeod 16 Jan 2010, 6:29pm

    Just searching through the articles in this site and soryy, but had to comment on this one. The poor man in the pointy hat obviously either needs a guide dog, or some dementia counselling if he honestly can’t see the irony in his comments. Does he honestly think the children would be better ‘looked after’ by some of his wayward priests who regard children in their care as a rabbit regards a lettuce or an alcoholic looking after the communion wine? A bunch of self appointed guisers in fancy dress with chants and ceremonies have no right to tell society how to live. They have no relevance to today’s society and even less relevance when it comes to telling us how to look after children!

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