Proof if needed that Muslims and Islam are NOT peaceful. If anyone thinks that then they need to read the quran. It’s frightful.
“If I were to call homosexuals perverted, dirty, filthy dogs who should be murdered, that’s my freedom of speech, isn’t it?” he told followers.”
Maybe so – but that also means that islamic facists must recognise the freedom of speech of other people to call their cult vicious; hateful; violent; stupid and homophobic. Muslim people can be progressive, liberal intelligent people but once they start supporting death to homosexuals or women or non believers they become moronic extremists whose faith deserves to be condemned and opposed.
If Islam were truly a peaceful cult, why aren’t its moderate leaders condemning intolerance, incting death to gays, women and “infidels”. There’s a lot to be said for “silence gives consent”. Clearly, this is a classic case of it. Nobody can convince me Islam is compatible with 21st century living. Now if LGBT people started calling for their deaths, we’d face prosecution. How come [they] don’t?
Congratulations to Channel 4 for showing this film. When I read the insulting and hateful pronouncements of religious leaders, particularly Islamic preachers, I think that we should insult this religion as much as possible. We have the right to free speech too. Islam is a religion of hate; if you doubt this, please read the Quran.
When I read the insulting and hateful pronouncements of religious leaders, particularly Islamic preachers, it is obvious that Islam if not a religion of peace. We should exercise our right of free speech, and insult this stone-age cult as much as possible.
“These people should not be confessing their sins to the television cameras” – An Imam from Europe’s largest mosque
I’m sorry, but this doesn’t actually warrant a civilised reply, so f*** you, you small minded idiot.
Why are these people in Britain? Its simple, get the hell out if you don’t like our laws. If you don’t like it here, hey, just don’t stay. You medieval fools have no right to preach their filth to us. Find a stone in Iran to hide under.
I don’t understand that ‘our’ Geert Wilders was not permitted entry into the UK, while all he’d done was showing what kind of Muslims there are, and to what kind of actions they’re capable, while these hate-mongers are allowed to ‘preach’ their message of hate.
Har, it’s simple we are scared of Muslims.
Islam is hate, pure and simple. But what makes me really really angry are muslims who flee oppression in other countries and find refuge here, but then turn around to people who live here and curse us because we do not adhere to their stupid purile superstitious ways.
My message to such Muslim retards who come to this country and hate us is simple. Fit in or f*ck off.
Agree with most comments, but NB not all Muslims believe this nonsense. please discriminate between ‘muslims’, individuals, and Islam, the religion. I am sure there are more liberal muslims than we are led to believe. But the government regards unelected goons like the Muslim Council of Britain, and imams as ‘community representatives’. They are not.
It is time for the liberal (note, a massive difference from ‘moderate’) muslim to speak out louder.
To hell with approaching it sensitively, but well done for giving a voice to those suffering oppressin in silence.
There’s a demo against Sharia law in trafalgar square on saturday for those who want to make their voices heard by the way.
Channel 4 had Ahmedinejad give the Christmas message on the same year – his Parliament voted to put to death anyone leaving Islam and becoming a Christian – 166-7
Channel 4 has been mindless of Islam and now it is being threatened by it –
Young male gays are regularly hanged in Iran –
Islam is against gays – truth is it is not – Muslim men and women practise annal sex before marriage – to protect the woman’s virginity – both men with men – and men with women and – women with other women/ – all to get round the virginity test – carried out by a medical doctor before marriage -
The men-woman relation – even has a name – it is called – entering through the back door/window – versus when you are married you can walk into the front -
Wow! I am quite shocked by some of the islamaphobic comments here. I am white British and gay. I also have some Muslim friends. I have also studied world religions in some depth, though I am no expert. I am not in favour of any kind of ‘top-down’ forced morality.
That said, the problem that I have with some of these comments is the core of the issue why Gert Wilder (rightly or wrongly) was not allowed to show his film in the UK. His film chose to present Islam itself in these manic terms…..he preferred not to make the simple, but important, distinction between Islam and Islamic extremism. To be honest, there are hateful violent, genocidal interpretations of passages in the bible – but when people talk of those they are careful to talk in terms of fundamentalists – not moderates.
There are many moderate Muslims – who interpret the Quran in a peaceful and tolerant way on the basis of a spiritual set of ideas that they have generated from their experience. I would suggest that this would be the majority – but I just don’t know. I can only talk in terms of my experience. Therefore I feel a little hurt on behalf of some of my loving, caring muslim friends when Islam is labelled violent and antagonistic. There is no such thing as Islam – it does not exist outside of the minds of those that practice it – and I am saying that, in my (UK!!!) experience, those minds are balanced peaceful and respecting. I obvioulsy disagree with many of the messages that are given out in the name of Islam – but then I do so with some messages from all religions. Like all other religions – they have some nice spiritual ideas but then build a firm, rigid belief structure on it – not independent of human beings – but that becomes ingrained in culture – its cultural religion, not individual spirituality, that I have a problem with. And I certainly don’t have a problem with the people – just the thinking!!!
Just wanted to be fair to our moderate (gay and straight, etc..)muslim brothers and sisters….
Well said richard
Well done Channel 4 for sticking to your beliefs and airing this show, Ill be watching it tonight for sure
While I agree with richard that you cannot brand all muslims as intolerant, extremist and reactionary, I don’t agree with the term ‘islamophobic’. It is an oxymoron, because phobias are irrational.
You cannot argue the 9/11 murderers, or perpetrators of atrocities around the globe are unislamic, when they leave behind martyrdom videos justifying actions from verses out of the Qur’an. Yes, people do throw acid in the faces of Afghan and Pakistani girls, bnlow up other muslim mosques, summarily execute gay Iraqis, in the name of Allah. It’s no use simply saying ‘that’s not my religion’.
All religions, in their purest form, are violent and murderously intolerant. It so happens most christians have managed to forget (conveniently) about the genocide, rape, murder, xenophobia, slavery, mysogyny and homophobia which are celebrated throughout the old and new testament.
Islam is particularly dangerous, because it claims to be the final revelation (Jesus being the warm-up act for the real thing).
Islam has had no reformation. Now is the time.
The government must stop listening to fanatics making islam a political force, and show support of free speech, and victims of kangaroo Sharia courts and honour killings.
Religious beliefs deserve no protection from criticism or ridicule and may I emphasise my support of the Danish cartoonists, as well as Sir Salman Rushdie, while I am about it.
People like Abu Usamah, who said “If I were to call homosexuals perverted, dirty, filthy dogs who should be murdered, that’s my freedom of speech, isn’t it?” should be indicted as coconspirators, accomplices or accessories to every GLBT person murdered subsequent to their call for violence.
The same should hold true for christers like US pentecostal preacher Jimmy Swaggart who said “I’ve never seen a man in my life I wanted to marry. And I’m gonna be blunt and plain: if one ever looks at me like that, I’m gonna kill him and tell God he died.”
Both are as guilty as the thug who does the killing.
Agree with Richard. I’m shocked by some of the comments on here. Sometimes it reads like the BNP are using the message boards.
This programme is about gay Muslims so why are people attacking all Muslims as though they were one solid block. We should be supporting our LGBT Muslim brothers and sisters, not attacking them because of their religion.
Also, the only new part of this story is the the quote from the Daily Star. Now I’m sure there reporting is always balanced and accurate but any chance of a name to go with the ‘mystery Imam’ who gave the quote?
Congratulations on having the courage to show this film. The violence in this religion clearly shows that they do not rspect us. Why should we respect them? Intolerance should never ve accepted. If I were to make comments about racial groups half as damaging as Isklam extremistrs make against gays, I would probably be arrested and charged. Enough is enough. We must stand up to these dangerous extremists before they gain the upper hand.
It’s a very difficult subject of course, but I think the angry comments here are understandable. There are many peaceful muslims I am sure, but as with all religions it’s the culture that has been built on that very religion which is the problem – seperating culture from religion is impossible. The Bible is just as bad of course, and Chritianity f-cks with gay people’s minds in different (just as bad) ways, such as so-called ex-gay movements which have resulted in many a gay suicide. BUT, look at the culture here and listen to what is being said in the name of Islam, and do not defend it. Do not defend any religion, as they are all based on following rules or burning for an eternity in hell – most including the rule being “pretend to be straight or else”. Suggesting most Muslims are accepting of homosexuality is not a well judged comment – it is an ignorance in itself. The only Muslims I have ever met who accept it are the poor sods who have been raised in it who are gay, and maybe a woman or two who has been forced to leave their own families for engaging in shocking activities like, erh, wearing a skirt or having a pint with their friends on a Saturday night. How can any gay person who has not been raised as a Muslim be expected to accept it? The “accept us or get out” comment above, that’s not Islamophobia – that’s a message to those who hold the views that we are perverts (and that is a massive majority – research it if you like, I have), and whilst it is not on my behalf a message to all Muslims, I DO second it to those who believe that particular part of the religions teachings. Call me ignorant, but I don’t like ANYONE living here who believes I am scum, and that includes athiest white scallies like the ones who killed Michael Causer too.
There were peaceful nazis’.
We are a Christian country governed by democratically elected government my father and grand father fought in two world wars to guarantee we hade a safe and free life now these extremist come to our home and insult us try to change our way of life to suit them they take and take from us and seem to give nothing back except hatred I have never believed in the national front or any other extremist group but I am beginning to think they may have appoint its time that the people of the united kingdom put an end to all this crap and stood up for our way of life our beliefs the Muslims should be told where to get off if you don’t like our ways our beliefs then go back to your own country and live the true Muslim life no one asked you to come and sponge of us and have all the nice things decedent things a free country enjoys we all know that you are denied them in your own country because some little man says they are sinful so if you don’t like us and you don’t like our way of life f**k back to where you came and that goes for the for the SS man in the white robes in Rome and all the other people that try to threaten our freedom our way of life god save all the queens of Great Brittan and the kings too
Islam is not moderate. It is a religion, and more importantly a community identity, ruled by fear and loathing.
The recent cartoon strips were a great example of muslim ‘intolerance’. How many times has Jesus been lampooned over the years? Exactly. It was just a cartoon, albeit tasteless.
To all those who have muslim friends, even the liberal types – if they had to choose, they would chose islam over you. You. A human being. Just something to think about!
Unfortunately, the fact is that islam is currently where christianity was in the dark ages, all full of fire and brimstone. Stone the infidels to death! etc. It will always attract extremist types because it is extreme.
Hopefully, islam will be liberalised as time moves on, just like the other major religions in the west… but I doubt it somehow…. if it doesn’t liberalise, we are all screwed.
well done channel 4 – for showing the truth
Andrew Q: it’s the same here. We’re scared or we’re pandering, because we need the Muslim vote. If I were a neo-Nazi, I wouldn’t be allowed to express myself as some Muslims are.
hang about, Ste McCabe, how do you know the murderers of Michael Causer were Atheists? You need to rein in the rant and put a few facts out there before you come out with tripe like that.
As a gay muslim I am really upset by some of the comments I see. It seems not only do we get hatred from our own community for not following a literalist narrow interpretation of the quran (the quran itself is MUCH more vague in regards to homosexuality than even the bible) but hatred from within our gay community who call our religion hateful. Can you not see it’s not religion that is inherintly evil – but the people who abuse and use it for their own power.
I am really looking forward to a Jihad for Love, and all of you congratulating channel 4 for “insulting islam as much possible” your completely wrong. The film is about gay muslims who above all still believe in the beauty of their faith and their human right to practice the religion despite the oppression which was the director Parvez sharma (also a gay muslim’s) intention.
I am nauseated by the seemingly far right radicalization gay people are turning to..
Nuriboy, Muslims believing in the beauty of their faith are just like Christians or Jews who try to do that. It’s all the same kind of stories about some vengeful god, whose main hobby is death and destruction. A friend of mine, a straight Muslim, read a translation of the Koran for the first time in his life, and he was never very devout, but this translation was ‘putting him off’. He didn’t know there’s was so much violence in it.
Muslim world telling the Western world how to live…. Western world telling the Muslim world how to live…. Get on with it and live and let live…. the Muslim way of life generally is just vile and dangerous
Nuriboy, what is the penalty for apostasy?
You must differentiate from hating religion – a belief, an opinion, and hating people. No one is stopping you from praying, or living out your faith, provided it in no way disadvantages or harms anyone else. I’d defend your right to do so. But I respect you too much as a person to respect your ridiculous beliefs. There is nothing remotely right wing about exercising freedom of speech.
(If it is any consolation, I say the same thing to gay christians, and placard waving nutcases at pride rallies: charles darwin answered all these questions.)
all those calling for hate and wanting to kill us for speaking and showing that there is as many gays in all the countiers and cultures of the world should be puninshed in the courts for inciting to murder adn be put away . gays are every where . islam is hatelfull to us. it should be banned
Coming from the US I have several close friends (gay and straight) who were raised in Islam — none of them practice it now, and some of them have left it for atheism or other things– and both groups are happier for it.
I oppose all fundamentalism, it is always a disaster — and it is inherently evil (in a non-spiritual sense). In Christianity fundamentalism is a threat to mainstream faith. In Islam it has won the war, it is not a threat any longer, it is a victor — at least at this time.
This has NOTHING to do with people, NOTHING. I do not exaggerate when I saw that to protect two of my secular, but culturally Muslim friends (one straight, one gay) I would die if I had to — I love them both very deeply, and they love me; but that does not change my intense distrust of the faith. Terrorism can NEVER be excused — and frankly, when Paul Hill and Timothy McVeigh did terrible things, EVERY Christian condemned them, even the fundamentalist ones; when Muslim terrorists kill people, they are defended, and even idolized — that is a problem (and no one knows it more than my friends) and it has to stop. It Muslim groups attempt to live separately and refuse to integrate into the larger society in the West, then I’m afraid (and I am as far to the Left as one can get in the US) that they have to leave — they cannot, and WILL NOT take over western countries. Everyone has to acknowledge that their willingness to kill people is frightening, and oppose them anyway.
I’m sorry, it took me years to get to this point, and in making these statements — to I am sure the shock of some here — I am simply reflecting what the friends I mentioned have told me. They hate fundamentalist, and for that matter religious Islam far more than any Christian, and far, far, far more than anything posted on this blog. I am being mild compared to what they have told me — and both of the two that are the closest to me, and one of the others, have lived in the mid-east — and they are the quickest to say that we are not being harsh enough, they have drawn me from being supportive of multi-culturalism concerning Islam to opposing it.
There can be no room for such a faith. Conform, integrate, or get out.
all religions belong in the dustbin of history. The sooner we all get our acts together and deal with the very real Global warming reality the better. The religion I was dragged up with disappeared when I came out. I have no truck with any hatred based on a stoneage rant written by power hungry hitlers 100s of years ago.
We in the UK need to get out of our obsession with political correctness and admit that Islam is not compatible with western values. If Muslims want strict Islam then move to an Islamic country where you can stone women and gays to death until your hearts content.
J Carter is absolutely right – its time we stopped pussy-footing around and woke up to the moslem threat to our society. I’m sure people like Richard and John are very sincere in their view that we should accomodate all in our society and tiptoe around the elephant in the room that could well destroy us all. But the fact is most moslems hate every bone in your body Richard and John and yearn for the day when they can wrest power from liberals in the UK and condemn you, and all of your gay brothers and sisters to death.
Its just like the 1930s when large numbers of Brits sought to appease Hitler and convince themselves that “he’s not that bad really” and we should make concessions and work with him. Hitler was evil and Nazi values were totally incompatable with the free world. Nazism was a fundamentally agressive force that sought to conquer by terror and might – Islam is just the same. Wishy washy liberals may be deluded as to the true intent of this cult but their philosophy, based on pure hatred and intolerence, is so strong that one day their apologists will be strung up and shot along with everyone else – black, brown, white, gay and straight, jewish, hindu, sikh et al that refuses to comply.
Nuriboy – religion (or should I say religious belief) IS inherently evil – be it the islamic; christian; jewish; hindu cults. Look at it’s evil, shameful history of genocide; rape; war; murder (and all based on a shitty work of fiction like the Qu’ran or Bible). Religion is evil for the simple reason that it wants death to those who oppose it – be they gays; women; jews etc. Christianity is a far more sly religion as it tries to pretend it does not support murder. Luckily the christian cult is almost dead in this country for which we should all be thankful.
I read an interesting statistic recently which said that apparently 85% of muslims are opposed to gay rights. That is a sickeningly high number. Why should gay people react with anything other than disgust and horror as these viciously hateful views held by an apparent majority of the evil belief system of the muslim cult.
By the way seeing as religious belief is not something inherent like sex or age or race it is perfectly acceptable to be islamophobic. All muslims are protected in the law from discrimination from racism; sexism; ageism etc. Therefore there is absolutely no need for laws to exist to protect them from discrimination based on their voluntarily chosen evil belief system. It would be similar to the BNP demanding protection in law for their facist beliefs
As for the so-called ‘moderate’ muslims. ANY Muslim who opposes gay rights it not a moderate and should not be described as such – just like any christian who opposes gay rights. They are backward and divisive.
Can anyone name a single mainstream liberal muslim group? Nuriboy – perhaps you can help us here as there doesn’t appear to be any.
Well, there are gay muslim groups here in the US, though I don’t know how mainstream they are.
There are gay muslim groups in Europe also but despite being liberal these are niche groups who have zero authority or respect by mainstream muslim society. Did you know that despite the fact that there are 1.1 billion muslims in the world that Turkey is the only muslim country where homosexuality is not punishable by death or imprisonment. And the only reason for that is that Turkey has a resolutely secular constitution. Islams is a cult of violence and intolerance and whenever I hear muslims whining about their perception as bigots I have to mention the fact that homosexuality is illegal everywhere (except Turkey) in the muslim world.
It’s pretty clear there are some atheists on here who want to use the homophobia of some religious people as a stick to beat all religion with and call it evil, biggotted etc. It’s a dishonest argument, does nothing for LGBT rights and is one of the main reasons I’ve stayed clear of any secular/atheist movement. I’m disapointed to see the “atheist evangelicals” trying to hijack LGBT rights to push their programme. Maybe try reading something other than Dawkins?
But there are others on here who are pushing the very dangerous and racist view that Muslims are outsiders to Britain – that you can’t be Muslim and British. Somehing close to “if you don’t like it here then go back to where you came from” even if not that explicit. It’s BNP language and arguments.
Unfortunately the atheist have become so rabid that the two groups now mix together pretty seamlessly. It seems claer that some atheists are happy to see discrimination against Muslims as the ‘first step’ towards fighting other faiths.
Also, don’t give me any rubbish about “I hate Islam but not Muslims.” That’s about as good as “I hate homosexuality but not homosexuals.”. The people in the film are Muslim and LGBT. That is they follow Islam. You can’t celebrate the fim for showing the truth that there are gay Muslims one second and then slag off Muslims the next, it’s hypocrtical and two faced.
By the way… As I said before, the only NEW info in this article (and the only thing that would qualify it as news for 2009 rather than 2008) is the dodgy Daily Star quote from an unnamed ‘Imam’. Can we expect other stories on Pink News sourced directly from that honest and accurate paper? Maybe some of their unbiggotted and non-sexist news stories on teenage Lesbians with the photo’s?
John, the people who follow religion chose to do so. It has NOT been proven that there is a god, in fact there is a lot more evidence to disprove all religious texts and to show them to be nothing more than fables. People that follow these do not want the right to practice their beliefs at home they want to be allowed special rights above and beyond human rights. They want their “gods” word to be law. If atheists are getting more vocal it’s fight against dogma. I have to say I find religion quite ridiculous, it’s too open. Anyone can believe anything from Superman to parallel worlds and while it is a HUMAN right to do so it has no place in the running of any country.
’39: John: “Also, don’t give me any rubbish about “I hate Islam but not Muslims.” That’s about as good as “I hate homosexuality but not homosexuals.”.”
Islam is a freely chosen, VOLUNTARY belief system. Homosexuality is an innate, INVOLUNTARY state. Therefore it is perfectly acceptable to say that you hate the voluntary belief system of Islam. It is not however acceptable to say that you hate homosexuality as that is attacking something innate in a person.
“But there are others on here who are pushing the very dangerous and racist view that Muslims are outsiders to Britain – that you can’t be Muslim and British. Somehing close to “if you don’t like it here then go back to where you came from” ”
You’ve avoided my earlier point. If the freely chosen, voluntary belief system of Islam punishes homosexuality by death or imprisonment in EVERY Muslim country worldwide (except Turkey) and Britain regards this as dangerous facism then why should people with these beliefs be tolerated.
Islam is a voluntary belief system. As was Nazism. Stop trying to give it respectability it doesn’t deserve.
Religions ONLY deserve the respect they show to others. If the muslim cult hates women and gay people (as it does) then why should they expect respect in return?
And I am very happy that atheists are fighting the creeping effect of religions trying to influence state policy. It is extraordinarily sinister and facist of religions to impose their world view on believers and non-believers in a country.
Simon Murphy is soooooo upset because some people think ‘Muslims are outsiders to Britain’ Poor Simon – he just doesn’t get it does he?
Islam is incompatible with democracy – even their own scholars accept that – Britain is (thank goodness) a democracy ergo Simon dear – Muslims ARE outsiders and should depart to live in a society that suits their neliefs. Saudi Arabia for example.
This is not a ‘dangerous and racist view’ Simon – it is a FACT
I point out that atheists are getting rabid and what do I get? Two rabid replies likening religion to fascism and nazism.
The documentary is proof that some Muslims follow and Islam that does not seek to kill LGBT people or hijack the state. There are also some Muslims who want LGBT people dead. Saying that Islam ‘hates women’ or ‘hates LGBT people’ is simply tarring everyone with the same brush.
Here’s the step by step guide to going from reasonable atheist to atheist who sounds like a loon from the BNP.
1) Notice that some Muslims hate LGBT people
2) Claim that this is because they are Muslim
3) Claim that therefore Muslims are inherently anti-LGBT
3) Miss entire point of the documentary celebrating LGBT Muslims who obviously don’t hate LGBT people
4) State that as all Muslims are inherently anti-LGBT they ought to go back from wherver they come from rather than live in an LGBT friendly country like the UK
5) Claim dodgy articles from homophobic tabloids as legitimate news sources as long as they back up your prejudices against Muslims
6) If anyone disagrees say you’re fighting religious fascism and they should giving it respectability
I like Nuriboy, am shocked at reading most of these comments. Instead of congratulating A Jihad for Love for being a film that exposes that Islam has meaning for gay men and women, and that it attempts to show the diversity of Muslims in the world, the majority of people on here use the film to attack the religion and its doctrines.
I challenge all those who do attack Islam to open the Quran, and read books written about the Prophet Muhammed, most notably by an English non-Muslim called Karen Amstrong. She celebrates Muhammed as someone who brought peace and unity to the Arab peninsula. Of those who are able to go to a library sit and read verses of the Quran that speak openly about equality between man and woman. For a time when women had no rights especially property rights Muhammad preached and delivered equal rights to man and woman, to the extent that the woman was asked first before getting married if she accepted the man. Islam was the first religion to abolish slavery. We all know about the Civil Rights movement in the US, and the movement to abolish slavery. All these have roots in Islam. Additionally, Islam was the first religion to combine seeking knowledge, using scientific methods to excel human mind and religion. Islam calls upon its followers to seek knowledge. Islam brought tools such as algebra to the Western world. Architecture in the West learnt alot from the methods used by early Muslims.
What we choose to see as representatives of Islam – be them fundamentalists and suicide bombers – are not the representatives of the true word of Islam. Yes, homosexuality is banned in most Muslim countries except for Turkey. Why this is, is not because of religion. No. This ban came about from colonialisation, and since then, the laws have not been changed and remain to support a status quo regime. Inequality is not only for those who are gay, but also for women. In Saudi Arabia for example women are not allowed to drive. We saw the oppression of women in Afganistan by the Taliban. Now, think. If the religion protests against inequality, brought rights to women and slaves, told all Muslims that all man is equal in the eyes of Allah, mentions that Allah created races and nations amongst the human race so they may know each other and live in brotherhood, calls all Muslims to live in peace and harmony with their neighbours Muslim or non Muslim then how can such political groups such as the Taliban be the examples of Islam. Islam is a peaceful all embracing religion, and we must see it as such.
If Islam was all that bad, why do the people in A Jihad want to be part of it? Why not just reject the religion? The reason is that Islam is more about sexuality. Islam allows the follower to develop their own relationship with Allah/ God. All you need to know to be a Muslim is the verse There is No God but God, and Muhammad is the messenger of Allah. There are no small print, or hidden agenda. There is no hidden oppressive message, or a call that all Muslims must be straight.
Please stop attacking and fearing Islam. It is a waste of time and energy to do so. Lets learn to accept and live side by side as human beings.
Remember A Jihad for Love is about people’s quest or journey to and for love.
p.s. Parvez – the film producer and director did not receive death threats for the making of this film.
The show isn’t in tonight’s (4 March) More4 listings online, nor on C4 nor E4 either. It isn’t even listed for tomorrow or Friday.
Is this a bit of Pink News ‘news creation’ or is it a recycled story? either way it seems to have got a discussion going about an event that currently doesn’t seem to be happening!
Nick, I think it was on in the early hours of March 4th on More4. I found it on the listings for march 3rd which run over into after midnight of March 4th. You can watch it on their ‘catch up’ feature (and no I don’t work for Channel 4! :p)
A note to all the naifs posting here about how their Muslim friends & neighbours are really peace-loving, humane, tolerant liberal democrats at heart:
“Kill him, kill him. You have to kill him, you understand. This is Islam.”
This IS Islam.
This is Islam when Muslim “True Believers” get their hands on the levers of secular power.
Just like it was Mediaeval Christendom when the “True Christians” had REAL secular power.
NOT Good News for Jews, Queers, Heretics or “Uppity” Women.
Decent, humane, tolerant Muslims are so DESPITE the contents of the Koran, NOT because of it.
Congratulations Channel 4, on having the courage to stand up to anti-democratic & politically-correct bullies, and show this material.
Well done Simon Murphy, good to see someone talking sense, and pointing out the difference between choices, such as belief, and inherent traits, such as sexuality. yes, you can like a person and think their beliefs are nonsense or poisonous. There is no compulsion to agree with me, or stop believing.
I really have no time for people who deviously blur the difference between ethnicity and religion, to the point where to criticise religion becomes ‘racist’. It isn’t, since Islam is not just the religion of arabians.
In a civilised democracy, people are free to criticise. the brutal facts are that wherever religion holds sway there’s violence, oppression, disease, ignorance. We have spent 500 years fighting against religion in europe, which is why we have the freedom to enquire (the birth of science), freedom of conscience, freedom of expression, freedom from belief, right to equal representation, and equal opportunities.
I’ll defend those values. Religion must never poison politics and democracy. And over my dead body will Sharia-fascism be implemented here. And I want to hear those liberal muslims condemn that barbarity in no uncertain terms.
It’s no use saying that those who used verses from the Qur’an to justify mass murder aren’t anything to do with your religion, they were inspired by the same holy book as you to kill and maim. Don’t come on here and tell me I can’t say that or what I should think about your religion, when atrocities are committed in the name of god. You have the explaining to do.
Finally to repeat, what is the penalty for apostasy?
isalm is a doctrien
force on muslims form birth
you can hate the religious lies in the bible and the coran and still respect the poor beelivers who have been cheatesd and lied too all their lives , there the gouverment
should make it law to tchange religions and make sure all know
nothing is proven and till proven gods and religions are just suppositions and many things are lies virgins marie and walting on water after life and all.
and thate stonning gays and sending us to hell ( hell does not exist )i am gay from birth and atheist at birth then indoctrinated into a religion that i found to be false at the age of 8 by my self
gay is real free life
44. Joe Johnston – are you able to read? Why are you attacking my comments when they match yours? That’s the stupidity I would expect from a religious scholar.
Some indisputable facts:
1. In EVERY country in the world with a majority Muslim population (except stringently secular Turkey) homosexuality is punishable by death or imprisonment – Iran; Saudi Arabia; Egypt; Qatar; Indonesia; Sudan; Iraq; Kuwait etc etc
2. Mohammed married a 9 year old girl when he was 50. Luckily he’s an entirely fictional character.
3. Sir Iqbal Sacranie – former leader of the ‘moderate’ (haha) Muslim Council of Britain has said in the past that homosexuality is incompatible with Islam
4. Surveys reveal that in Britain about 85% of Muslims think gay people are inherently evil.
5. Islam is a freely chosen, voluntary belief system. People can and do reject the belief system and should be encouraged to do so.
6. There are no mainstream liberal Muslim groups in Britain (ie not a single mainstream muslim group which does not believe that gay people are inherently evil). The secretive and low-key gay Muslim groups have failed utterly in altering the facist rhetoric of the cult leadership on homosexuality.
Simon – There is a new moderate (liberal?) organisation, Quilliam Foundation, led by Ed Hussain, an ex extremist (maybe one of its members would care to join in the discussion here? how big is its support base and how successful are they in convincing muslims?). I note the ghouls at the MCB denounce them – that in itself probably makes them a worthy organisation by default.
The website would do well to say what they stand for on issues like non-believers, LGBT, secularism. There is also Irshad Manji’s Ijtihad campaign in Canada (her book is a good read).
Ubaid-ul-Rehman – you say:
“All you need to know to be a Muslim is the verse There is No God but God, and Muhammad is the messenger of Allah. ”
And if you don’t believe in ‘god’ or ‘Mohammed’ and reject that message then will the cult support your decision to be a non-Muslim? Not in any muslim country on earth (except Turkey)
That’s the crux of the matter. People should be free to believe whatever they want ONLY so long as they extend the same right to people who believe differently.
The muslim; christian; jewish; hindu etc cults do not accept this. Therefore they need to be feared and opposed and its members encouraged to challenge the facism within the cults.
It’s official… rhetoric straight from the far right is here
“Congratulations Channel 4, on having the courage to stand up to anti-democratic & politically-correct bullies, and show this material.”
Ok… 1) Channel 4 were not attacked by any group. A single unnamed Imam made a remark against the Muslims in the film not against Channel 4. And that was according to the racst, homophobic, bigoted rag, the Daily Star. Not a trust worthy news source!
2) Politically-correct bullies? Yeah righ! No ‘politically-correct’ person has called for the film to be pulled from More 4.
It’s clear the far right are now using this board, trying to use LGBT rights as a way to whip up anti-Muslim feelings.
Shame on the atheist who have coppied far-right rhetoric. Does anyone think this will do the LGBT community any good? Any popularising of BNP and far-right rhetoric and slogans will come back to bite LGBT people. Remember they are the people who want to sterilise all gay men and lesbians!
There are real criticisms and outrages to be made of extremeist preachers but tarring all Muslims with the same brush is not the way to do it. As I said before, this film is about LGBT MUSLIMS. If you criticise all Muslims you criticise the people in the film which defeats the point of it.
I take it from the comments that some people want an LGBT community without religious people? No room for Gay Muslims, Christians, Jews or Hindus in your ‘Gay Community’? Count me out. I want an LGBT community for ALL LGBT people. Not just the atheists.
I also think that Pinknews.co.uk had acted irresponsibly for uncritically reprinting a dodgy Daily Star story with no evidence, embellishing it beyond what the quote said, and saying that Channel 4 were expecting a backlash when they weren’t. It was a repeat in the early hours of the morning! Is this the quality of ‘facts’ and ‘news’ we can expect to get from Pinknews.co.uk? Absolutely terrible.
#55: John: “It’s clear the far right are now using this board, trying to use LGBT rights as a way to whip up anti-Muslim feelings.”
Any muslim who regards gays or women as inferior or evil absolutely deserves to be disliked and distrusted. Can you accept that? If not then why not?
Why are you not addressing the issues being raised and hiding behind unfounded accusations about the far right?
Do you accept that gay people have a very valid fear of a voluntary; freely chosen belief system all of whose leaders and the majority of its followers regard us as evil?
Why is there not a single muslim group or leader which will stand up and declare that homophobia is unacceptable and unislamic?
Why does islam (and indeed christianity) refuse to abide by the same rules they expect for themselves – ie if they label homosexuality as evil then surely they cannot whine if people criticise their beliefs or regard them as stupid facists. Belief in some fictional ‘god’ does not excuse facism. Do you accept that? If not then why not?
Why does islam (and christianity) wish to impose their beliefs on the entire population irrespective of whether people want it or not? How is that different from facism?
“I take it from the comments that some people want an LGBT community without religious people? No room for Gay Muslims, Christians, Jews or Hindus in your ‘Gay Community’? ”
There should only be room for religious people in the LGBT community so long as they accept that their freely chosen; voluntary belief system applies to themselves only and that they absolutely cannot try to impose their beliefs and rules on people who don’t agree with them.
Why are you opposed to that very reasonable position?
Why are you demanding protection for groups which hate you?
John – whilst I don’t entirely disgree with everything you have said, just to pull you up about one thing. The Daily Star doesn’t actually run any ‘original stories’ to the best of my recollection. As I understand it, they did and still do, lift stories from other publications and reprint them.
Also, whilst I accept that not all Muslims are the same, they don’t have to be for it to have the same effect. Few moderate Muslims with stand up head to head and argue with a less moderate fellow Muslim who is preaching hatred in the name of Islam, particularly when they can cite the views of one imam or another as proof thast they are right.
Most moderate Muslims are intimidated to some degree by those with more fundamentalist views amongst them, so their views never get heard.
You could argue that the moderate Muslims that are afraid to speak our are victims of the same persecution that we face or you could argue that in not speaking out that are guilty by association.
Sr Mary Clarence: you say:
“Few moderate Muslims with stand up head to head and argue with a less moderate fellow Muslim who is preaching hatred in the name of Islam”
Actually not a single muslim group has ever condemned homophobia. The Muslim Council of Britain is supposed to be the voice of moderate islam but that group regards homosexuality as disordered and incompatible with islam.
‘Moderate’ islam is a myth if this is the case.
To Simon Murphy
I apologise – I did not take account of the quotation marks in your post 4 March 15:36 and read it as if you were responsible for the comment within the quotation marks. So… yes, I can read quite well thank you but I should have read your post more carefully and, as I say, I apologise for my misinterpretation of your remarks which, as you say, do not differ much from my own views.
You have made some very big, erroneous assumptions based more on what you read into some of the comments posted here, than what was actually written.
As for “atheists who have coppied (sic) far right rhetoric” well, I believe there are many agnostics, deists, theists, pantheists and panentheists, Hindus, Jains, Bahais, Sikhs and Zoroastrians (to name just a few) who ALSO object very strongly to violent Islamic theocratic totalitarian ideologies being propagated in the societies they live in and care about.
Many of these people are social or liberal democrats who have no wish to foist their beliefs on others against their will. They are not therefore “far right” – as you ludicrously accuse!
You have also failed to address my observation that decent, tolerant, humane Muslims are so despite, not because of, the content of the Koran.
If you need a refresher on the raw, unexpurgated content of the Koran just google “skepticsannotatebible quran”
I have to say the comments here are seriously shocking and in many cases lacking in any understanding of Muslims and Islam. For one thing, to be a Muslim is as much a cultural identity as it may be religious. I have close friends who are proud of their Muslim identity (heritage, culture etc) and aren’t remotely religious. If you don’t understand this point, you really shouldn’t comment ignorantly about this group of people. It’s just an unusual matter of fact that there exists a secular Muslim identity that doesn’t have an equivalent in Christianity. For instance there’s no such thing as a ‘secular christian’ but there certainly are ‘secular muslims’ – it’s a cultural thing. I would recommend many of the more extreme posters here should get their heads around this before they kick off.
Well done Channel 4 – keep up the good work.
“For instance there’s no such thing as a ‘secular christian’”
Actually, Ben, you seem ignorant of the fact that there ARE people who identify as ‘secular Christians’. Thay may not be as numerous as the ‘secular Muslims’ you have identified, but they DO exist.
The problem remains, however, that few ‘secular’ or ‘liberal’ or ‘moderate’ Muslims seem to speak out very effectively against the Koranic fundamentalist agitators.
How can they? Their identity as Muslims is ultimately founded upon that same ancient, flawed, violent book!
Well said Rob Fox.
By the way, any it is possible to be proud of the heritage of Omar Khayyam, Avicenna, Ibn Rushd, and so on WITHOUT being muslim.
There is nothing more beautiful than those four lines of Omar Khayyam’s Rubaiyyat, written at approximately the same time as the Norman conquest, which read:
And unto such as you,
A maggot-minded, starved, fanatic crew,
God gave the secret and not to me?
Well, well, what matters it? Believe that too!!
In the West, we would not see such a piss-taking of religion until David Hume, over 600 years later. Muslims gave us mathematics ; the guitar, the re-introduction of Greek philosophy – destroyed and burned by Christian Byzantine thugs. But still, none of these great thinkers of the mediaeval Muslim world needed any knowledge of the Qur’an or the Hadith to achieve their great works. I am equally in awe of these great thinkers – they are our heritage, because without algebra there would have been no scientific revolution – but I am delighted to think the contents of the Qur’an are not true.
Ben (above) must realise that freedom of expression, freedom of and from belief are non-negotiable rights. No one on here has made any threat to any muslim. We;ve just criticised their beliefs. Play the world’s smallest violin, that’s what happens in the civilised world.
If people only answer criticism with babyish threats such as : ‘criticise Islam and I’ll brand you a fascist’ -(a bit like the Inquisition’s ultimatum to Galileo: criticise our astronomy and we’ll burn you at the stake) they kill their argument.
Religion is religion. The so called experts and leaders use religion to enforce their views on the uninformed masses. Islam is peace… Islam is beautiful I cannot say the same or all Muslims. All religions have their extremists! I believe in PEACE, I am a proud muslim and a proud lebian. I will not hide, I cannot hide fron God why do I want to hide from people. I dont need your permission! Anyone who preaches hate or death does not believe in the One God!!! Lets fill the world with LOVE
~63: Ben – you say: “I have close friends who are proud of their Muslim identity (heritage, culture etc) and aren’t remotely religious.”
Well it’s great that they’ve abandoned the religious elements of islam – never trust people who base their lives on a badly written work of fiction.
My problem is why we never hear about these secular muslim groups condemning the homophobia and bigotry of their religion and campaigning for a more tolerant islam. Secular muslim groups may exist but they don’t seem remotely effective in countering the rabid homophobia of the religious wingnuts of Islam. Where were these groups in Denmark during the furore about the cartoons. Where werre these groups during the Salman Rushdie case?
If they passively accept the facism of the religious nutters in islam they are basically tolerating it. That is unacceptable.
#65: Adrian T – you say “Muslims gave us mathematics ; the guitar, the re-introduction of Greek philosophy”
No they didn’t. The Arab people gave us those things. It has absolutely zero to do with their religion.
I would be less worried about the bigoted and totalitarian muslims who call for the deaths of those who don’t conform to their world-view if more of the self-styled ‘moderates’ at home in liberal democracies would openly denounce them. It would be quite nice too if more of them explicitly said they were willing to live under the same laws as the rest of us instead of asking for Sharia.
That’s my point entirely, Simon. But indeed those people defined themselves as muslims. It’s just that they *happened* to be muslim, zero significance to their ability to advance science. The Islamic world thrived at a time when Islam itself was at its most benign, while theocrats shut down the centres of learning in greece.
PS Also, Simon, if you really are passionate about defending secular society, I expect to see you at the anti-Sharia demo at Trafalgar Square, too, later today – and yes, you will meet a number of muslim secularists.
And this article in todays irish independent sums up all this ‘respect for religion’ nonsense perfectly:
While the criticism of Islam is very valid, it seems to be most people just want to bash Muslims/Islam whatever the story is. After all, why would this story, an encouraging sign of changing times, ever not receive the advocates of those who wish to promote democracy, free speech, equality of homosexuals and all those ideals? It is simple. They let their bigotry cloud their judgment, or perhaps they aren’t interested in this at all. Regardless, it has to be said, for those seeking change within the Muslim community, like them or not, the best way is to support this movie, its makers and those who are a part of it. Certainly there are just as many Muslim gays as Christians, Jews etc. Most certainly they live in threat of alienation, death threats and a host of other suppression. I find it disgusting that those people are not supported and many find another opportunity to get on the Islam-hate bandwagon. But this is hardly surprising. Why are there no calls made for Americans and the British to protest their atrocities of the Iraq War? Why are the Zionists given free reign and support in operating a regime of racial division whose human rights violations far exceed any Islamic state? No one wants to listen to the voice of hypocrisy, those calling for a change in Islam must reform their own states to be a model example of what they preach instead of scapegoating the Muslims as the root of all evil.
I notice that no one has tried to defend this non-story. It’s a rubbish story, based on nothing, impossible to check, contains parts which are just made up, other parts which are embellished and exaggerated but militant atheists have decided to pick-up and use to bash Muslims. Great… Next time the tabloids run a piece on “gays are peado’s” or similar can we expect the same atheists to be so trusting? Will Pinknews uncritically reprint it and embellish it to make it even worse?
I also notice that no one has picked up on the point that the film is about LGBT Muslims so for all those attacking all Muslims, again, you’ve missed out on the point of the film.
Some people have defended what they’re saying as not being far-right rhetoric. But when you get into the realm of “go back to where you come from”, all Muslims being bad, Islam being uniquely hostile to ‘western values’, the Koran being some sort of source of evil, etc etc then you’re using the same arguments as the far-right. Many Muslims hate the fundamentalists as well and do not understand the Qur’an in the way they do. It’s easy to pick any holy book and take sentences out of context and then claim that the whole religion is bad. Easy but inaccurate, lazy and unfair. Just as it is easy to never speak to Muslims and assume that what the tabloids say about them is correct. Easy but inaccurate, lazy and unfair. I hope no one assumes that the lazy way the media represent LGBT people is accurate. (Unfortunately I know they do).
Also, I love the double standard on here. Do something good and claim that it’s because of your faith and the atheists scream “No! It’s despite your faith that you do good things.” On the other hand do something bad and claim it’s because of your faith and the atheists say “Yes! You’re right! It’s because of your faith because your faith is bad”. Once you’ve chosen to filter all the evidence in such a way it’s not surprising you come to the conclusion that religion is evil. If we all ignored evidence contrary to our beliefs then we could be just as arrogant and unreasonable to each other as well.
‘Western Values’ – there is NO SUCH THING. Human rights are universal, they are being fought for in all over the world (including the islamic world) against theocracy and dictatorship. Remember, only 3% of Pakistanis voted for a religious party. Women in Iran want the freedom to wear western clothes and make up. They don’t want religion to inform public and political life any more than we want it, and people should stop pretending they do.
John’s point that atheists are insulting and degrading muslims, when it is suggested they do good inspite of their faith, is wrong.
I think it is more respectful to say: you don’t need a 1400 year (or a 2500 year) old book to know right from wrong. I would not trust you if you thought you did. What else would you expect an atheist to say in any case??? It’s patronising, condescending to say otherwise. And subtly racist – as if to say that religious people from ethnic minorities are not capable of being inherently moral, hearing criticism or being confronted with reason. John also makes the great mistake in implying that atheists can only only be white caucasians. He craftily equates racism, and bigotry against muslims, with criticising or ridiculing the Qur’an (we’ve been doing this to the bible since the time of David Hume and Spinoza; why stop now?). As a caucasian, I was in the minority on Saturday at the anti-sharia demonstration. Would he also demonise the atheist Iranian people I met, who came all the way from yorkshire to demonstrate this weekend, as being ‘far right’?! Or the Iranian Marxist and Secularist movements? How ridiculous!! (Actually some crank called Bob Pitt, the person behind Islamophobiawatch.org – a site dedicated to witch hunts against anyone who remotely criticises Islam, does exactly that.)
The very ease with which you can pick and choose verses of the Torah, Bible and Quran makes these books poisonous. How do you decide whether to discard or to venerate a particular text? The onus is on the believer, not the atheist to explain this. It’s no use shutting down an argument, and pretending the verses aren’t there, and that people aren’t being motivated to act on them.
PS Islam is the same as Christianity. It is only 60 years ago that Archbishop Fisher of Canterbury said that he would look forward to nuclear war, because this would transform us into the glorified state that Jesus had intended for us at the end of time.
Look, the fact I would rather people weren’t religious is for another argument. If it gives great consolation – good for them, I support them.
I fully support this film and I think the people behind it are extremely brave and should be commended. Any initiative to combat religious bigotry, oppression of women and sectarianism is to be welcomed.
Human rights are universal and for anyone who is defending the stupidity of the muslim; christian or jewish cults you should be aware that these stupid cults don’t support human rights or democracy. I feel nothing but pity for those muslims; christians and jews who are so wilfully stupid to base their lives on the tenets of badly written fiction.
For an educated person to believe the ridiculous fairytales of those crappy books is an act of wilful stupidity.
And I am particularly disgusted on this debate why the defendants of the stupid islamic cult refuse to say that they think the cultists should be obliged not to try to force their stupid beliefs on the rest of the population.
Come back El Cid, all is forgiven!