Nice one Jonathan Bartley! He’s said what the rest of us have been thinking for some while. It’s all very well to say “We’re not like Westboro” because you’re not ranting in the streets telling everyone who will listen that ‘fags’ are an abomination and are going to roast in hell, but if you still class gay people as damned by god and condemn them in your services, the only real difference is the delivery… and perhaps the lack of foam around the mouth.
This is exactly what WBC have been saying for ages. They at least have the balls to say what they feel, these other fundies are just hypocrites unable to accept their own faith is a faith based on the hateful and nasty Old Testament.
There’s a quote from Shirley Phelps Roper on Phags for Phelps which basically calls out these hypocrites for what they are.
I hate what the WBC preach but at least they preach it openly and honestly without all this “love the sinner” rubbish.
Thank God – in a way – for outspoken Liberal Christians like Jonathan Bartley.
Yet – in another way – JB is ALSO “hoist by his own petard”…
The Phelps cult may not fit the “moderates” definition of Christian, but they are nothing if not Biblical!
Liberal Christianity is also founded upon that same, thoroughly flawed, ancient scripture.
The Liberal Christian attacking the Evangelical reminds me of nothing quite so much as a madman trying to run away from his own feet!
Moderate Christians, Jews or Muslims all have the same problem: they cannot explain away the recommendations of violence and opression which lie in the texts they take inspiration from.
Once you’ve declared that a god exists, who listens to your prayers, forgives your sins, minds who you sleep with and how, or even supports you in a war, then your position is no more logical than that of any other fanatic.
Let the WBC in! I don’t need protecting against these clownish Americans by a bunch of pusillanimous MPs who are frightened of their own shadows, soil themselves when they pass a Muslim in the street and want to compel us all to carry ID cards and be fingerprinted. Bring on the Kansas dancing boys and give us all a laugh.
Jae – Thanks for the link to Phags for Phelps… it’s the strangest site I’ve seen in a long while, though you have to admire the perverse logic of it. The idea of a gay man having Shirley Phelps Roper as a pen pal sounds perverse in the extreme, but there is method in the madness. It’s like watching two people shoot the breeze about everything under the sun like ordinary pals might, just that one of them thinks the other deserves the death penalty. The idea is it counterpoints the sheer perversity of the Phelps’ message in that there’s such a cognative dissonance between Shirley chatting as if they’re old school friends and Shirley the rabid homophobe. It makes Louis Theroux’s documentary look quite sane by comparison!
The Baptist Union of Great Britain, the Evangelical Alliance UK, Faithworks, the Methodist Church of Great Britain, the United Reformed Church and Bible Society-funded said that “We do not share [Westboro's] hatred of lesbian and gay people.We believe that God loves all, irrespective of sexual orientation, and we unreservedly stand against their message of hate toward those communities.”
First, all these British believers are wrong that people from Westboro Baptist Church hates lesbians and gays. Opposition from religious point of view to the homosexuals is not the hate, but profession of Faith.
Second, people from Baptist Union of Great Britain, the Evangelical Alliance UK, Faithworks, the Methodist Church of Great Britain, the United Reformed Church and Bible Society-funded, certainly, have very wrong believe that “God loves all, irrespective of sexual orientation…” : God does not loves all, but only choosen ones. There no doubt that people from such UK’ churches doesn’t understood Bible, where very cleary God manifested to the Humanity whom He loves, – Jews only, – and whom He hates, – Sodomites. There no so-called “Christianity” and “Islam” but variations of Judaism under various names invented by wrongly thinking individuals.
Thirdly, there no so-called “sexual orientation”, but only normal sexual conduct and abnormal, which is the rejection of sexual normality, which leading humans to marriage and reproduction of other humans – ad infinitum.
Furthermore – there no so-called “communities” of gays and lesbians. That’s absolute nonsense. There only some, and very small number of homosexual inhabitants scattered in various cities across UK and in some countries of the world. That’s all…
The people from the Baptist Union of Great Britain, the Evangelical Alliance UK, Faithworks, the Methodist Church of Great Britain, the United Reformed Church and Bible Society-funded are just has been deluded by homosexuals. It is wrong for religious people to accept antireligious and homosexually charged propaganda against God-loveing believers from Westboro Baptist Church.
Majority of US people are biologically, socially and culturally related to the British people, and current British government, as well as certain British individuals and organizations, acting out as the traitors toward their US relatives, who want to come the UK to express their religious believe in relation to the homosexuals and their opposition to the homosexual propaganda in the UK.
Defender of Innocents – I’m sorry but that sounded a whole lot like “Hate the sin, love the sinner – but you do all know you’re going to fry in hell right?”
I’m not feeling much love in that statement. Quit “blaming it on the bible” and mincing your words and tell us what you really think.
Erm… Defender of Innocents you should know there are no innocents according to your wonderfully dark creation myth. Original sin and all that.
I feel sorry for you, your syntax suggests a rather immature mind. I hope that one day you do mature into a better, more understanding, human being and cast off the yoke of a false and dangerous religious belief.
Sex is about more than just procreation, every bit as complex and diverse as any other part of human culture. Those who wish to subjectively enforce “normal” and “abnormal” labels onto different forms of sex risk destroying the very essence of what it means to be a free human being.
2 Flapjack. Who is “us”? Speak for yourself – that’s the proper way. Don’t be sorry. There nothing to feel any sorry. I just spoke my views. That’s all. I think any person from the friendly country, such as the U.S.A., have right to visit the U.K. and express freely his religious views. That’s all. I don’t care if you are a homosexual, or trassexual, or any other type of sexual deviant. All I care that the basic human rights — right to free movement, right to free assembly and right to free speech, – of any person of the world shall be observed anywhere in the world. Is I am asking to much?…
“Defender of Innocents”, you clearly don’t understand the Apostle Paul (without whom there would be NO gentile Christianity at all)Hence you don’t understand Christianity (or “Judaism” as you erroneously entitled it!).
Therefore you are clearly unorthodox, that is, heretical, if not downright apostate, and therefore, according to orthodox Evangelicalism, Hell-bound!
Perhaps you ought to concentrate more on getting yourself “right with God” before publishing your puerile and erroneous opinions for all the World to see.
You said: “All I care that the basic human rights — right to free movement, right to free assembly and right to free speech, – of any person of the world shall be observed anywhere in the world”
Really? I trust then, that that extremely liberal sentiment applies to all the Central and South American Hispanics looking for work in the USA, Arab & Pakistani Islamists seeking to promote Jihad against the West in the USA, and Russian mafiosi setting up criminal enterprises in the USA?
I didn’t think so.
Defender – ‘Sorry’ for those who’ve been living under a rock for their entire life is a figure of speech in that context. I’m personally glad you don’t represent the USA as I know there are many more friendly people in it than yourself. I personally don’t object to your freedom of movement, just as I hope you wouldn’t object to the frosty reception you’re likely to get when you arrive.
I also have a right to express my views. In my view, you are hiding behind your religion to take a potshot at gay people. Your religion holds no more value to me than someone else’s political view, or personal opinion about who’s going to win the football. It’s not a case of “Oh it’s his religion, I’d better respect his belief system”. It’s a case of “you choose to believe that. I don’t”. If you can convince me that a. God exists, or b. he gives a toss about anything I do, good luck, otherwise you’re on your own.
And I’ve got to tell you, the overwhelming scientific evidence is on my side.
If you need to believe in God, that’s your business… just quit making it mine.
What is myth for you, is reality for several billions human beings. And you trying to say that you smarter then all these religious people of the world? That you are intelligent, while all religious people are stupids, sort of idiots?
Don’t be sorry for me – be sorry for yourself, because it is you who are truely have immature mind, which was incapable to follow the proper way of mental development, in comparision to what several billions of human beings achieved on this Earth.
“Sex is about more than just procreation, every bit as complex and diverse as any other part of human culture.”
Did you ever study biology? Don’t you know that sex is not a part of human culture, but a biological attribute of human organism? Go back to school and stop produce nonsense out of your homosexually fixated imagination.
“Those who wish to subjectively enforce “normal” and “abnormal” labels onto different forms of sex risk destroying the very essence of what it means to be a free human being.”
Just as said above – go back to school to study the science of biology, and particularly – stages of normal and abnormal anatomical and physiological development of human organism. After you finish your studies, you will understand that what you said above – is pure nonsense, the manifestation of your mental underdevelopment. Also you will understand that freedom of human being is an illusion in terms of biology, by which various degrees of human existence are determined.
And your biology qualification is what exactly?
Sorry, Defender of Innocents you are mistaken, that a country is ‘friendly’ does not necessarily meen that every last inhabitant will be.
If it is considered than an individual entering this country will not be able to obey the laws of the land, the government is within its rights in preventing them from entering.
Great play is made these days of the rights of the individual and perhaps a little more emphasis should be placed on the responsibilities that each of us have whilst enjoying those rights. I’m not a huge expert on the subject, but I’d be surprised if the Bible doesn’t make some reference to this somewhere as well.
We live in a cohesive and largely tolerant society. In fact, the two go hand in hand. For this to continue we need to ensure that we exercise our rights responsibly. All too often those following one doctrine or another believe that are acting as an agent for a higher power. God has not spoken to you and asked you to form the views that you have, despite what you may or may not believe, any more than he has spoken to me and give me a long list of things to object to.
You have taken the position that you have through nurture and in defiance of the designs of nature. Gay people on the other hand are a design of nature, as now has been successfully proven through science, and to change that through nurture who be a corruption of the design of nature.
Your religious beliefs are a choice. In language you would understand our sexual orientation is a gift bestowed on us at birth by God. For you to attempt to change that is a corruption of God’s will. It is you who are a testament to the imperfection of God’s great design, choosing to believe the word of man over the wishes of God.
If there is a hell, you and all those others following the book of man and denying the word of God, will burn there with the merchants that Jesus drove from the temple.
Repent your sin before it is too late.
Unfortunately, these crazies speak what most evangelicals in the US truly believe. The religious right have declared a “culture war” against anyone that is different and especially homosexuals. President Obama, unfortunately, has “reached out” to these groups and even appointed people to positions of power in the White House that believe in “reparative” therapy for homosexuals. We are fighting but appreciate seeing some of the victories for justice and equality in Europe. As usual the US will not be in the forefront of this civil rights issue.
“What is myth for you, is reality for several billions human beings. And you trying to say that you smarter then all these religious people of the world? That you are intelligent, while all religious people are stupids, sort of idiots?”
a) You can believe something as much as you like but that does not make it true. Or was the world really flat until a majority of the people believed it to be round whereupon it suddenly changed shape to fit this new belief?
b) It is a well known fact gained from numerous peer reviewed studies that an individual’s level of intelligence is in inverse proportion to their religiosity.
@defender: religion is a choice, sexual orientation is predetermined. if, as you insinuate, people choose to be homosexual – why would they if they were going to be persecuted by religious goons like you?
Sexual orientation is no more a choice than skin color.
I can believe in Harry Potter as much as i want, but that doesn’t mean i can levitate tables.
Is it just me or does ‘Defender of Innocents’ sound very much like our dear friend, Ivan Gumilev? When I started reading that, I was surprised to get to the end and find it WASN’T Ivan! It’s not the sentiments that are similar, it’s the syntax, the language and the use of the word ‘stupids’.
Good call Iris – why didn’t I notice that earlier?
hello nutcase Defender of Innocents –
Did you study biology? If so, you would have learnt that we have evolved – yes, evolved, without any evidence for a tooth fairy celestial dictator who listens to prayers – to find sex fun; our ape ancestors’ brains became larger and we developed imagination. Because of these factors, every normal person on the planet has sex 99.99x% without procreating, whether it’s masturbation, oral, anal sex, or gay sex. Go and read more about that from people like Jared Diamond ‘why sex is fun’; Matt Ridley ‘origins of virtue’;
As a species, we have thrived because of our ability to pass on DNA, but to pass on ideas – memes (cf Richard Dawkins ‘selfish gene’; ‘river out of eden’). We are the only species – out of over a billion life forms to have existed on this planet in the last 3.5 billion years – to have overcome Darwinian natural selection, the fight to the death contest to pass on genes. And thankfully so.
Currently, there are 3.5 times as many human beings on the planet more than the earth can sustain. So it is not only not necessary that every person does not reproduce, it is imperative that not every person reproduces.
So, as for your argument, that people should be free to harrass, intimidate and bully gay people with superstition – your only argument you have against homosexuality, is that it’s against God’s will.
I want you to tell me how you know this to be true. You claim to be on intimate terms with a supernatural being, the supreme creator of the universe – an entity for which there is no evidence whatsoever. So, tell us now, what are your sources? How does this being reveal itselof to you? How can you prove this, e.g. photographic, video evidence, perhaps?
In Matthew 10:22 at Caperneum, the supposed Jesus of Nazareth warned his followers they should expect hatred, ridicule, because normal people (e.g. those who don’t believe man walked with dinosaurs, like the al Qaeda-endorsed peanut brain Sarah Palin believes) will think their beliefs to be off the scale whacko nonsense. I think this is a moral obligation to remind people like you of this. PS What is the age of the Earth in your opinion?
As I mentioned earlier, Fed Phelps and his inbreds are theologically 100% correct, they back up their arguments with quote after quote. You, like David Koresh 16 years ago, help remind people why we should stop venerating texts which celebrate genocise (Deut. 18; Num 21 and many others), Anti-semitism (eg 1 thess 14:16), oppression of women (1Tim), slavery (the words of nutcase St Paul in galatians, and recommendations from Jesus on how to treat slaves); nuclear war (most of Revelation, written by someone on acid I imagine, looked forward to gleefully by mentally Left Behind morons in Confederate america).
thankfully, we can dismiss all these claims because there is no evidence for any event described in the Torah; there is no evidence for David, Soloman or indeed Jesus, apart from the propaganda written by Paul and his crackpot sect.
Of course, billions of muslims are equally sure that People of the Book like you, a ‘kuffar’, will go to hell, just as you are sure I will go to hell for ridiculing your message. Why should I believe you more than the followers of the Prophet Mohammed?
Even Mother Teresa realised she was talking to nobody in the end. The road to Damascus is a 2-way street, Defender of Innocents. You’re talking to no-one. I hope you manage to enjoy the one and only life you have to appreciate the true nature of the Cosmos, and break free from the superstitions, that were clearly drummed into you as a child, before you could reason for yourself. Carpe diem, and big kiss xxx A.
Dos’nt it just get everybodys juces running? Stinken hate campaigns.
Is this a new word? LOL
“Is this a new word?”
‘Yap!’ is right. Positively barking, in fact.
Ivan- Didn’t take long for your high principled Voltarian ‘freedom of speech at any cost’ value system to crumble did it? Now Ivan, the ‘Voltaire inspired humanist’ is arguing for censorship of those who disagree with you. And you call us the hypocrites…I think my ironymeter just exploded.
The rebuttals and the reasoning expressed in the comments above are persuasive, elegant, and beautiful to read and think about, so far as “Defender” goes it really is a fine example of “pearls before swine”. Please note “Defender” I am not calling you a swine, (I think pigs are really nice animals as animals go) but I am suggesting that being religious is a serious handicap to the processes of engaging in clear thinking reasoned debate, as you keep demonstrating.
“That you are intelligent, while all religious people are stupids, sort of idiots?”
Right on the head there “defender”. Your reference to the word “stupids” is enough to show that. But its a proven fact, like it or not, that religious people are more likely less educated and have a lower IQ.
In 2008, Nyborg examined whether IQ relates to denomination and income, using representative data from the National Longitudinal Study of Youth, which includes intelligence tests on a representative selection of American youth, where they have also replied to questions about religious belief. His results, published in the scientific journal Intelligence demonstrated that on average, Atheists scored 1.95 IQ points higher than Agnostics, 3.82 points higher than Liberal persuasions, and 5.89 IQ points higher than Dogmatic persuasions.
So, yes, you’re stupid. It a scientific fact.
I have been engrossed, enthralled and fascinated by the breadth of knowledge and intellect dislpayed in these comments. The scale from imbecilic to funny to brilliliant has travelled back and forth with each comment.
I have enjoyed it so much that I feel I must contribute, even though I have nothing really substantive to add to the debate other than the value of my own opinion. Allow me to provide a scenario:
If someone comes up to you and says they have been having a dialogue with someone they can neither see or touch, or that this person came to them in a dream and “touched” their “spirit”.
They then informed you that this bodiless voice or dream figure had asked them to carry out actions that would restrict your movement, curtail your beliefs or challenge your ethical or morale codes. What would you do?
If this person was carrying a knife and threatened you with it or proceded to carry out acts of violence on your person or property, you are eventually likely to find them in either prisons or mental institutions.
If this person spoke to you from a pulpit………….. they are likely to be upstanding members of the community whose moral fibre is unquestioned.
Science says “I don’t know but I am willing to learn” religion says “this is the way it is because god has said so”.
In many ways I am beginning to feel that religion is actually is actually anti-human ……….. as it is human to question and seek answers.
I would also like to say that I don’t believe I have the right to judge anyone, I would like to love everyone as I would love myself and that anyone without sin can go ahead and cast stones………….
I apologise if there is a level of irony but I couldn’t help myself.