So who is going to be the first here to make a comment, whilst waiting for the backlash accusations of being racist? The headline in itself is both truthful and divisive, and I’m pretty sure all the socialist lefties here will not be willing to stick their heads above the parapet.
A lot of people already knew this answer.
Black people voting to oppose the rights of a another minority would be ironic if it wasn’t so sad given that they were wearing chains 200 years ago in their own country, the so called “land of the free”. While not ideal, I would like to hope that “christian values” have more to do with this than colour.
Going to stick my little black head (and its big black mouth) above the parapet – the black community both here and in the US are not as tolerant or accepting of homosexuality as the white community. There is nothing racist in that it is just a cultural difference. To be honest I’m surprised the exit poll data didn’t show a larger variance across ethnicity.
Strong religious belief within the black community would have also played a party for many and I believe more so than ever that civil partnerships, modelled similarly to those here in the UK would have been an achievable goal. A separate ‘gay marriage’ that didn’t infringe on the perceived integrity of heterosexual marriage who have ruffled less feathers and provided the necessary few percentage points to win.
Funny how the black community fails to notice the parallels between black oppression and gay oppression. OK, one is ethnicity and the other is sexuality, but neither should concern anyone but those that are black or gay, at least not in terms of waranting prejudice. If you see what I mean…
Re Sister Mary Clarence: California already has domestic partnerships which offer all of the rights of marriage, similar to the UK.
Why does this news not suprise me? It’s a sad irony of this world that minority groups that are always whingeing and whining about their rights being trampled are more than happy to trample the rights of others if given half the chance. Human beings are pretty fucked up.
Flapjack: That’s easier said than done. It’s not like people say “Mum, Dad, I’ve got something to tell you: I’m black.”
It’s usually the first factor most anti-gay and religious types throw up, that being gay is a choice, whereas you can’t decide on your ethnicity. This is why most blacks do not see any parallels.
There is also a big throwback to African traditions that see homosexuality as evil, and are in complete denial claiming that it is only something that only occurs in USA and Europe.
Like sure, we all chose to be denied rights, mocked, segregated, beaten and occasionally killed, it’s just such a *great* lifestyle!
1 – Those less educated arre more likely to oppose equal rights for gays,
2 – Those who hold strong religious views and regularly attend church (or something along those lines) are more likely to oppose equality,
Most African-Americans fall into both these categories, so I’m not suprirsed that the majority voted to take away marriage from gay people.
Rob Neal – I guess you’re right on that score, but there still remains the parallel that religion has traditionally been used as a stick to keep the black community down. And anyone who gives it a moment’s serious consideration should realise that gayness for the majority of gays is no more a choice than celibacy and abstinence (or even gayness) is for the majority of the straight community.
And for all fundamentalist trolls out there, NO I’M NOT GOING BACK IN THE CLOSET AND LIVING IN DENIAL JUST TO MAKE YOU FEEL LESS THREATENED. As you rightly point out, who wants to “choose” being mocked, segregated beaten and occasionally killed. That point can’t be repeated enough.
Gays voted for a black man – and the blacks returned the favour by voting against gay people.
The point is not that a civil partnership is equal to a marriage, it’s that a conscious decision was made to create an underclass within the constitution whereby one section of society is to be considered less than another. That’s an horrendous decision for any democracy to make. If the black community went to the voting booths to actively create an unequal society while carolling Barack Obama as the herald of a more inclusive society, then they’re rank hypocrites and deserve to be called such. However, it wasn’t just the black community in this vote. There’s more than enough blame to go around racially, religiously and politically.
Darrien, exactly. In societies where there is no state religion, ergo, the U.S. for example, there is a direct conflict in the issuance of marriage licences to those who wish for a religious ceremony in order to marry. The constitution clearly states that there shall be no provision for state religion. The conflict is that the U.S. government in this case issues licences based on religious principles when in fact it shouldn’t. The religious inclined lose the argument in the case of civil marriage which is all that the fight for marriage equality is all about. Let them issue their own licences and register their marriages with the government in order to received the 1324 rights and privileges associated with it. In the case of Massachusetts, Connecticut and recently Calfornia, marriage equality excludes any religious group from performing marriages for same-sex couples and excludes anyone from prosecution in so doing. The same applies to marriage equality legislation in Holland, Belgium, Spain, Norway, South Africa and Canada. Sweden’s pending legislation also excludes the Lutheran church and others from having to perform them. Nowhere did proposition 8 compel any religion to acknowledge or marry same-sex couples or face prosecution. This proposition was voted for based on lies and misinformation. There was a barrage of antigay videos circulated throughout California telling the public that if the proposition were defeated it would mean that schools would have to start teaching homosexuality and gay marriage. It was so bad that the superintendent of schools had to issue a public announcement that not only does the school system not teach homosexuality but neither does it or will it teach about marriage, straight or gay. This was a campaign of fear and lies supported for and paid for by Mormons, baptists, catholics, evangelicals, orthodox and consevative jews, muslims and others including a handful of marriage-hating gays, probably of the log cabin ilk. African-Americans can’t all be blamed, mostly all whites voted for it too. This will pass with more education in minority groups.
Yep, Robert. Just on the black thing, it’s also worth pointing out that the afro-american population of California is about six per cent, and obviously not all of them can or will have voted. The largest ethnic groups in the state are the whites and latinos, so they are the groups to take the majority of the blame if we were to do an ethnic breakdown of the situation. Also, it’s worth mentioning that San Francisco County (where one would expect a majority of gay and lesbians in the state to reside) recorded a shockingly low turn-out in the election – and by extension voting on Proposition 8. In addition to this, although prominent Democrats from Barack Obama and Arnie’s wife Maria Shriver and various other high-and-mighty types spoke out against Proposition 8, the Democratic National Committee didn’t do much on the issue because it didn’t want to alienate the churches of various stripes.
Although the legal cases being mounted against the vote on Prop 8 might be successful, the hearts and minds operation to challenge the churches who poured so many resources into demonising a minority is where the real fight is. Of course, it’s a lop-sided fight because there’s no way a government is going to take on the churches because it relies on them to do so much of its welfare work, so the frontline is probably going to be those much-derided gay and gay-friendly celebrities who can use TV as their own pulpit. Whatever the strategy, though, I’m still absolutely horrified that so many people voted to remove equality from a constitution.
Further to my previous post, maybe this will help explain how the American consitution works in regard to majority rule vs. minorities.
Majority rule is one of the essential principles of democracy and a hallmark of which the American constitution was written. Without majority rule the framers believed that the country would be subjected to a tyrannical government which is what they wanted to be free of (King George’s rule was an example of that) but they also needed to protect the minority.
To better understand majority rule and minority rights we need to observe the definitions of each. First, majority rule is the concept that policies will be determined by what the majority of the people decides. While this majority of the people decide for everyone ( including minorities) there have been laws set forth in the Constitution that protect the basic rights of minorities regardless of race, gender, religious affiliation or sexual preference. Secondly, minority rights are the basic rights attributed to certain minority groups to ensure that they attain equality and have a voice in political decisions even when the majority wins over them. These two are related to each other in that the framers designed the American government to restrict or impede the majority from hindering or taking away the rights of the minority. These two have a distinct relationship in its government even though they seem opposite of each other, because even though the majority has a higher voice in the society the minority cannot have their rights taken away from them. We can see the basic principles of majority rule, minority rights in the amendments to the constitution, but that’s for another discussion.
Another factor as to why this passed is that the majority of African-American voters used the bible instead of the constitution if you refer to the previous statement I made. These and others who voted yes need to be reminded that it wasn’t the bible that eliminated slavery and Jim Crow, or protected the rights of women and children, nor was it the bible that expanded the freedom to religious expression or none. This proposition was passed based purely on antigay propaganda and had absolutely no empirical evidence from personal experiences on the part of those who voted for the proposition. Education most definitely plays a key role in getting this reversed, even for those who went to ivy league schools.
The reason we lost in California was not the black vote, and only mentally diseased racists like Ron Neal and self loathing Uncle Toms like twisted sister would entertain such preposterous notions.
We never had a chance because of timidity of the No on 8 leadership and the misleadership of the Democrats, a right centrist party. They were timid when audacity was required. They left the field of battle in Black and Latino communities to the bigots, ignoring the influence of bigoted christer cults until the last minute and wasting the opportunities opened by the powerful support of women’s groups, trade unions, the Mexican American Legal Defense and Educational Fund, MALDEF and the NAACP.
The other big factor that led inexorably to our defeat was the cowardice of the two centrist candidates McCain and Obama. From the primaries until November 3rd both constantly vied for the bigot vote, trying to outdo each other pandering to christers. In that effort Obama made huge gains, digging deep into Rove territory and closing the ‘bigot gap’. Unlike the youth vote and others, christers are regimented, disciplined and have real clout. They know the game; they elected Obama and now they own him.
The first of these right wing initiatives was Prop 6, which would have disqualified GLBT folks from teaching jobs. It was very much like Section 28, the brainchild of the bigoted Thatcherites. Instead of dueling commercials we emphasized door to door leafleting and talking by successfully mobilizing the LGBT communities. And we had one huge advantage that we lacked this time. Both Carter, the Democrat president and Reagan, the Republican candidate very publically blasted Prop 6, a twin of the Tory Section 28, calling it bigoted and undemocratic. When that happened our numbers changed dramatically.
Now however, both parties pander to the religious right. It began with Clinton’s gutless capitulation on DOMA and DADT and was followed by the Republican use of DOMA as a wedge issue in 2000 and 2004. When the Democrats regained the Congress in 2006 they continued the drift towards theocracy by eviscerating ENDA and tossing it’s corpse along with the hate crimes bill in the garbage.
Prop 8 is just the latest betrayal. McCain blasted us saying that we’re second class citizens who have to right to get married. Obama agreed and took it a step further. His comment “god’s in the mix” said that god disapproved of us, that same sex marriage was a sin. (A sin is what ever interferes with a priest, pastor, imam, rabbi, preacher or grand gazoo making money. Marriage is their stock in trade.) McCain and Obama caved on us, and their strident bigotry was an excuse, a green light for bigots to clobber us. The other betrayal was that most liberals and Democrats gave him a pass on his bigotry. Their silence was deafening.
Now we need to pick up the pieces and build a nationwide mass action movement independent of the twin parties of bigotry. The road to equality will bypass the Democrats and Republicans.
Don’t call me an Uncle Tom you racist little c*nt, Bill.
First of all I was a white imperialist until you found out I’m black and now that you know I am you’re using racially offensive terms like wog and Uncle Tom.
Is it any wonder the vote was lost if your average gay white American refers to the black community as wogs and calls them an Uncle Tom if they don’t agree.
Always a good sign you’re winning an argument when the racism starts Bill ….
Bill, I think you’re right on forming an independent movement. Many of us may have helped elect Obama except of course if you’re a Log Cabin gay closeted conservative, but he and others need to be put on notice that they can’t take our vote for granted in 2012. The problem now is to convince NGLTF, HRC, LAMBDA, GLAAD, Empire State Pride Agenda and all the other equality organizations to get on board. Its time for the gloves to come off once and for all and next time, we must insist that the constitution is not ignored in terms of the majority over the minority.
Well Bill, you’ve stooped to a new low with your openly racist attack on Sister Mary.
Get a grip, twisted sister. The plain taught is that you tarnish the fights against racism and homophobia with your ridiculous assertion that “the black community both here and in the US are not as tolerant or accepting of homosexuality as the white community.” African-Americans are not the bigots you make them out to be. They, like EuroAmericans were misled by Obama and McCain and the bigoted leaders of religious cults. The truth is that Obama is not very tolerant. All the civil rights groups like the NAACP stood with us. Prop 8 was similar to the disgusting Section 28, another Tory legacy along with union busting and imperialism.
If you aren’t an Uncle Tom and self-loathing homosexual rightist then please explain your unending attacks on every advance the GLBT communities make and your strident criticism of our struggles. You Tories have declared yourselves our enemies, so don’t puff up when we call attention to it. And I see that now we’ll have to add male chauvinist pig to the list. Twisted sister, it may be normal to toss around pig phrases like c**t in Troy circles but it is not in the GLBT movement. You’ve just managed to insult lots lesbians and feminists.
One measure of you right wing cluelessness ignorance is your lie that civil partnerships vs., marriage is a question we raised. Dim-witted twister sister, don’t you know that the fight began with a pro-GLBT decision of the Republican dominated California Supreme Court. We didn’t start this fight, it was begun by the US equivalent of homophobic Tories, people like yourself. They attacked the Supreme Court’s decision and we defended. Equally revealing is your clueless assertion that civil partnerships are the same as marriage. The Defense of Marriage Acts at both the federal and state level denies us most of the financial and other benefits of marriage. Stupid one, that what the fights all about. If you’re capable of doing web searches look it up.
Criticisms of your far right politics and your mudslinging racist attacks of muslim activists are not racism, or racism in reverse. They are simply accurate. You do understand, stupid sister that “Wog” is a Tory term, not one I made up. It’s your term for the rest of the world, not ours.
I’ve quoted the Tory claim that “Wogs begin at Calais” many times. Please explain your abrupt new claim that it’s directed at you. If not we’ll add it your list of lies and slanders even though the list takes up a lot of memory. Which of the usual Tory reasons prompted you usual lie – was it mudslinging, a diversion because you’re too dense to win an argument, could it have been one of your temper tantrums, or was it simply your rancid, bitter self-loathing personality lashing out again.
Cancel that, I don’t really want to know. We’re all tired of your imitation of a pith adder. It’s tiresome. Yawn.
If you want to redeem yourself quote me with a link referring to you as a “Wog”. If you can’t we’ll assume that it’s just another of your innumerable lies. Like your silly story that I blackmail huge powerful GLBT groups. That fell apart when it was revealed that it was fabricated by you or some other retard who stupidly forgot that English and Americans colloquialisms and spelling can be very different. Or that Robert ex-pat is an “arms dealer” and a tax cheat. You Tories are ham fisted but not particularly clever liars. Yawn.
Until you publish an apology to everyone you’ve slandered at PinkNews by name, quoting your slanders and explaining why they’re wrong and that they’re just your way of diverting the discussion because almost everyone disagrees with you then maybe we’ll begin treating you as someone sane. If you need help just ask me, I’ve them all stored in my file called UK Swine Central.
Now can we get back to the real discussion.
Bill – that’s a disgraceful thing to say about sister mary. It makes me not want to read any further than the first line, in fact, I am ashamed I did. But I agree most of your points. I don’t think Obama needs the christian vote, in fact I’d say most people are sick and tired of religion interefering with politics. Obama’s silence on gay issues is partly to blame as well. He’s all but canonised in the media right now; to hell with that. His comments about marriage being for a man and a woman, at that stupid mage-Church debate amonth ago, really told a lot of ignorant people how they should vote on Prop 8.
Of course, you have lots of fools like the activist Wayne Besen, and various gay christians, who go on about how christianity is totally compatible with being gay. Once you dig that trap for yourself, claiming to know god’s opinion about who you can sleep with, then the fundamentalists will always win the argument.
Gay people should Stop pussyfooting around and remind people about how the Mormon church was built on racist ideology.
PS Though Sister Mary, because of the monniker you chose, I automatically pictured someone like … Karen Armstrong. I hope that is not an unforgivable sin in your book.
I’m not yet a major fan of Barack Obama, but in fairness, it should be pointed out that although he is not in favour of gay marriage, he is in favour of civil partnerships and has said so on several occasions. He also said he was opposed to Proposition 8 (although his followers clearly chose to ignore that). He also thanked the gay community in his acceptance speech for the presidency – which is worth noting. Having said that, I doubt he’ll do a damn thing to increase equality for gays, lesbians, the bi and transgendered unless he’s forced to. And that force is more likely to come from a broad coalition of organisations outside of the political parties than within. And if that results in large, angry demonstrations, so much the better. At some stage, the point will have ot be made that equality is something in itself; it’s not a bargaining chip.
Well, well, well… on top of being a demented nut, we see that Bill has now decided to show his true racist colours. Its totally irrelevant who used the term wog originally, its offensive to an civilised person, your use of it is foul and typical of someone with your diminished education and respect for others.
Apart form that, you’re an uneducated fool:- The saying “The wogs begin at Calais” was originated by George Wigg, Labour MP for Dudley, in 1949.
Sister Mary is entitled to her views, race is irrelevant. She makes more sane and insightful points for gay rights than a nut like you any day of the week…. especially one where you’ve forgotten to take your Lithium Carbonate medication.
Your post clearly shows you to be more right wing bigot that your comie rants allude to, you are a truly disgusting individual.
Oh, and Robert ex-apt, you should be ashamed of yourself agreeing with this contemptible racist, it demeans you and your argument when you chose to support people like this bottom feeder.
Adrian T – what I said has been said by others on several occasions. If twisted sister wants to be treated like a part of our movement instead of an enemy he has to change radically. Gay blogs in the US are inundated with false claims that African Americans are backward about GLBT rights and that African Americans are driven by ignorance and superstition. Claims like that are simply racist rubbish. African Americans, like everyone who votes for centrists like Obama and McCain were misled by their bipartisan bigotry, a barrage of unanswered religious cults and a corporate press that promotes very backward politics.
If twisted sister acted supported our movement, instead of a being a petulant bitter enemy of the movement, he wouldn’t be so widely despised.
Don’t hold your breath, Adrian; he’s been like that since he suddenly appeared up a couple of years ago in conjunction with a series of Tory party ads.
I don’t think Obama needs the christian vote, in fact I’d say most people are sick and tired of religion interefering with politics.
Nevertheless Obama pursued the christer vote from day one, and went a long way to making inroads in the Republican bigot base. The problem with that is that unlike other parts of the electorate EuroAmerican cults like the groups catholics, mormons and southern baptists are very ideological and they march in lockstep. Their leaders can and have marched into the White House and laid down the law. To the extent that they helped elect him, they’ll own him.
As for people getting tired of the christers that’s the understatement of the year.
Luke wouldn’t know a racist if he saw one, unless it was in the mirror.
“Adrian T – what I said has been said by others on several occasions”
Well, not exactly. No one here uses racists slurs to get their insulting and feverish rants across, like you Bill, that’s a uniquely YOU quality. A quality most decent people thankfully shun.
How’s your so-called “Rainbow Red Organisation”… managed to get another member yet? No, didn’t think so. Hard to find people who share your singular brand of foolishness, isn’t it? Maybe you’ll have more in common with the KKK… they use words like “wog” all the time.
No one gives a toss about your stupid view of politics.
Bill, what are you doing here? What do you hope to achieve with those insults and the same endlessly repetitive posts on political parties? Why don’t you take your angry racist bullshit to another site. You are clearly no supporter of gay rights, only here to peddle some narcissistic political soapbox. This is a British gay site, so why not f***off and find one closer to home, no one here is interested in your warped attacks on gay people.
Bill – you are a disgrace to our community – your comments are offensive and absurd. You clearly have mental health issues so I suppose we should pity you but please refrain from airing your twisted bile again before you seek the help you obviously need.
Bill, we have had enough of your insults and petty jibes at gay people. No one who supports “our movement” as you put it would dare talk the way you do against others who are entitled to their right to free speech. You oppress free speech with your disgusting racist comments, your just some right wing nut who spouts left wing garbage at the expense of true supports of gay rights.
Time to get your poisonous ranting back on your side of the pond, we are all getting tired of you over here.
Will, I should be ashamed of myself because I often agree with some of Bill’s comments? Bill is in no way right wing and as for his supposed racism and racist comments, hardly. Some of you who post here need to look in the mirror…..if you cast your mind back several months in the case of middle-eastern gay asylum seekers in the UK for example. It was the mostly right wing neocon tory lovers who posted here and who supported deportation back to countries where they faced possible imprisonment, torture and even death in some cases. These same xenophobes even doubted the veracity of any of these individuals’ claims for asylum and in some instances doubted that they were even gay. I didn’t see much resistance to that in here and when there is, we’re accused of being left-wing, commies….typical smear tactics used by republicans when they’re losing the argument…and now we’re right wingers and racists? Please!
As for the use of the term “wog”, Bill did not use the term as a slur against anyone or any group of people, in fact he used it to illustrate the racist, xenophobic comments by some who post here, and the mindset of people in power and their supporters (labour party supporters included) who traditionally never backed equality for gay people and if they could get away it, would reinstate Section 28, among other things.
In any democracy, we can all agree to disagree, without resorting to foul language and completely unfounded accusations to make a point. Using guilt by association as a tool to alienate and sew division so that one point of view is the only accepted in order to get people off of this site doesn’t work any more. Bill and I as well as all of you have a right to our opinions. He and I have never and would never tell others to go somewhere else to “rant” or express our views if you believe in democracy.
Robert, wake up.
I quote Bill: “and self loathing Uncle Toms like twisted sister would entertain such preposterous notions”
Are you seriously trying to insult my intelligence to tell me he didn’t racially insult Sister Mary??? You’re clearly illiterate or just plain stupid, and I have little time for either. As for your comment “In any democracy, we can all agree to disagree, without resorting to foul language and completely unfounded accusations to make a point”, you actually believe Bill does this???? He insults anyone that disagrees with him with infantile and outlandish statements that rarely make any sense… Do you REALLY think we’re all idiots and we can’t see that???
You need a wake up call Robert, you want to side with a racist idiots, fine, but do not make statements like “Bill did not use the term as a slur against anyone” in frpnt of me and expect me to swallow your tripe, because unlike Bill and his kind, we are not idiots, we can read his statements very clearly.
You clearly need to start addressing your own anger issues and why you feel you need support from this nonsensical muppet to back you up.
I for one agree with the others here, Bill’s a waste of space and should move on, and if you like to support him and his “Uncle Tom” slurs, hope you being a accused of backing up a racist is something you get used to, but don’t insult my intelligence again… unlike Bill, I’m pretty sure I’ve earned my two degrees.
Robert, I don’t know if you’ll read this, but on the thread http://www.pinknews.co.uk/news/articles/2005-9499.html#,
there’s a poster called Luke who has rather a go at you. That was another Luke and not the Luke (me) who regularly has disagreements with Bill! (as i did earlier on this thread)
It would be better if we could have TypeKey registration and so this possible confusion over posters could be avoided.
Robert, I have just read all the comments here. I rarely post here, but I have to say this time, you need a slap in the chops mate if you think that you’re fooling us. Democracy does NOT cover the right to make racial attacks like “Uncle Toms”, and more shame you for defending the right to do so. You’re as much a f*****g disgrace as that Perdue bloke is…. cop on and grow up.
Its hard enough fighting for our rights without retards like this distasteful Bill Perude twat slandering the colour of peoples skin and you defending them.
Eddie, Linda, Will, Sister Mary, Adrian, Luke…. well said, don’t let this piece of scum ruin a good gay site with his offensive bile!!!
People who support right wing Tories support racism, union busting, homophobia and racist islamophobia.
The ‘Tory Treatment’ of lies, intimidation and diversions from the discussion of issues vital to the GLBT movement simply doesn’t work. Every time the Tories use it they make new enemies.
That’s really all there is to say about the “Tory Treatment.”
Now back to the matter at hand. Large demonstrations have occurred almost spontaneously in LA, San Diego and San Francisco using the internet and cell phones.
And now there all calls for new Marches on Washington, regional and local demonstrations, teach-ins and sit-ins.
Mass marches, in particular big ones with their awesome rallies and consciously unsettling and disrespectful mass visits to the denizens of Capitol Hill are a good thing.
The keys to success are independence from the twin parties of bigotry and a broad based mass action perspective and internal democracy. We have a ready made list of cutting edge goals such as…
The call for a radically enlarged “as necessary”, expansion of HIV/AID efforts, federally funded but under the joint direction of the CDC, HIV/AIDS care groups, GLBT medical associations and nurses and doctors trade unions.
As the recession spirals towards a depression we demand a crash program to provide safe housing, university education or union affiliated vocational training (their choice) to ‘throw away’ LGBT youths and to all the kids and families living on the streets. It should be under the direction of GLBT advocates and other community groups. The alternatives are self destructive addictions, forced prostitution and suicide.
A demand for inclusive employment and housing discrimination bills crafted to make it easy to indict, prosecute and win against bigoted business owners, managers and landlords in court. With mandated, harsh penalties.
A call for effective hate crimes and hate speech laws that make it easy to indict, prosecute and win against bigoted cults, their leaders, and politicians. With robust penalties.
We also want to advocate a federal law that repeals or supersedes all anti same sex marriage laws and offers a choice of civil unions, marriages and civil partnerships with all the advantages of marriage but adding one step no-fault divorce. (For the mormons we want stiffer penalties for plural marriages that include giving women ownership of all the assets of the union and explicitly protecting children from abuse. Male mormon children are frequently abandoned by their fathers to prevent them competing for young women who in turn are forced into plural marriages at very young ages.).
“Now back to the matter at hand” you say Bill. Yeah, I’m sure you’ll want to distance yourself from the “wogs” and “Uncle Toms” comments. A big man would apologise. You clearly are a small man. Maybe Robert will back you up, but I won’t.
You a pathetic coward as much as you are a fool.
How many times do you have to tell this idiot…. right. Again.
Perdue. Listen. Tory is a British party. B-R-I-T-I-S-H. You got a map handy?
So, calling anyone who does not reside in the UK a Tory is just stupid. Its shows up your lack of intelligence and education in world politics. Suppose that’s what you get from wiping you arse with the Communist Manifesto.
Oh, and Robert. You’re a complete spa. Defending and then denying a racist comment like that, shame on you. But, alas, I’m not surprised really… lately you’re getting as angry as Perdue. Chill pills for the both of you.
Luke, thanks but I won’t even waste my time checking that one out, ignoring things like that is often the best remedy. They grow tired after a while because they get no reaction or acknowledgement and consider their argument won which it isn’t and why enable them? Ignorance has always bred contempt.
Geoff, why is it that when people differ, you and others included have to resort to childish name calling, bad language, accusations that are completely unfounded just to get your collective point across to the exclusion of anything that conflicts with yours? You seem to be implying that Bill and myself should get the hell out of this site. Next you’ll be saying that foreigners and ex-pat Brits such as myself are not entitled to any view except yours and those of others who concur, mighty fascist of you, Britain for the Brits…..the BNP would be proud of you. Maybe you should get a petition to Pink News demanding that differing, controversial views, all foreign news be banned from this site altogether including all foreigners and ex-pat Brits.
Message to Will of Dublin…..can you reiterate the comments you made several months ago that Pink News withdrew and as a result thereof, indicated that you would never post here again?
Tony Grew, please take note.
Wow! This is great. Bitchy queens ignoring the news in favour of throwing insults around. The Proposition 8 story is important because it shows two things: i) Gay rights/equality are not a foregone conclusion in any Western political system unless there is a unified front to fight for them. And, ii) if the religious organisations in the US are flush with success they are likely to extend their policies to other Western countries and specifically the EU. When church groups managed to be successful in anti-gay moves in one US state, they moved on to neighbouring states to replicate the strategy. Already, there is American church money being given to ‘Christian’ organisations in the UK to fight any extension in gay rights and has been used in the past to provide research for anti-gay members of the House of Lords. This is important to the gay community (yes, I get the joke)in the UK. If the US rightwing and church groupings feel they can export a cultural philosophy of oppression without opposition, history teaches that they will do so.
The issue of race – in this instance – is a sidetrack to the basic story. A very strong case is being made by statisticians that no matter what percentage of blacks in California voted for or against Proposition 8, they’re not a significant enough proportion of the population to have made a difference one way or another.
Ignoring the continued eruptions of Tory pustules, here’s more on those ‘exit polls’ and why the movement rejects the racist claim that “the black community both here and in the US are not as tolerant or accepting of homosexuality as the white community.”
Here’s what one prominent African American bisexual lawyer, shannika, had to say at the blog Daily Kos, a ‘progressive’ Democratic site, trying to
”put to rest, once and for all, this virulently racist idea that Black people are to blame for the passage of Proposition 8 here in California. It is an idea grounded in utter myth, a complete lack of knowledge about anything related to Black people’s presence in California, and just plain old scapegoating.”
Here are some excerpts: “There are 7 times as many white people in California as Blacks. There are nearly 6 times as many Latino people in California as Blacks. And there are double the number of Asian people as Blacks.”
There is no indication where the poll of 2400 persons was taken, in one of the counties with a small percentage of black voters reside or in Alameda County (Oakland), which has a electorate of 13% black voters and where Prop 8 was soundly defeated.
The CNN poll didn’t take into account the 3 million absentee ballots cast, or the fact that of the 2.26 million African Americans in California about 700,000 are underage, about 114 thousand are felony disqualified from voting, an easy status to acquire from a racist legal system, and roughly (actually this is just an extrapolated guess) 40,000 more were in county jails on election day.
shannika estimates that of the 2.26 million somewhere between 720,000 and 1.2 million voted and that they could not have determined the outcome, even if every one voted for 8, which we know is not true.
White Men: 51% of 31% of 10,325,615 votes: 1,632,480 Yes
White Women: 47% of 32% of 10,325,615 votes: 1,552,972 Yes
Latino Men: 54% of 8% of 10,325,615 votes: 446,067 Yes
Latino Women: 52% of 11% of 10,325,615 votes: 592,170 Yes
Asian/Native: 51% of 9% of 10,325,615 votes: 473,946 Yes
Total: 4,697,635 (9.3 times the maximum TOTAL number of Black votes in California.)
Other exit polling showed that 22% of those who described themselves as “liberal” voted yes on Prop 8, according to exit polls.” They were liberal bigots, aka, Democrats.
82% of EuroAmerican Republicans (Tories with a different accent) voted for Prop 8. Of all the voter cohorts polled they were the group with the highest percentage of its members voting in favor of the ban.
This should put to the racist claim that “the black community both here and in the US are not as tolerant or accepting of homosexuality as the white community.”
I’d just like to say thank you for the words of support of the racism issue from the now numerous contributors on the subject. My already low opinion of Bill (and Robert) has sunk even lower, not least because in the case of Bill he genuinely doesn’t seem to realise that terms like ‘wog’ and ’Uncle Tom’ are racially offensive to black people.
However Bill, my Wikipedia educated little friend, having spent the day, or at least a small part of it, productively. I’ve managed to dig up a little supporting evidence for the statements I made earlier – which if you care to read them properly did not say that the black community alone was responsible for the defeat, but merely pointed out that generally there is a different level of acceptance across ethnicity.
The African-American community has been at the forefront of many struggles to secure rights for disenfranchised groups and communities. On the issue of marriage equality, however, we have not used our voices or resources to mobilize affirmatively. For the most part, we have been silent. It is my belief that this is our fight too. We must stand for equality and dignity for all of our brothers and sisters. The right to marry whomever you choose is a right that should be enjoyed by everyone.
Willie L. Brown, Jr.
Mayor of San Francisco
“Our findings suggest that in addition to religious and moral beliefs, African-American attitudes toward marriage equality are influenced by specific cultural beliefs and values rooted in ideas of Black masculinity and sexuality in the dominant culture; the historic discrimination experienced by African-Americans in the United States and its impact on the Black family unit; and the role of the Black religious institutions in shaping the political agenda of the community. Other dominant beliefs, perceptions, and attitudes include:
• the idea that marriage equality and gay rights are issues that do not directly impact the African-American community or that they are “majority” race issues;
• the prioritization of race over gender by the Black Civil Rights organizations and institutions, the Black LGBT community and the larger African-American community;
• the belief that the LGBT rights movement has appropriated historic civil rights messages and wrongly equating racial oppression with oppression based on sexual orientation or gender identity; and
• the perception that homosexuality further contributes to the stigmatization and demonization of Black sexuality and the fragmentation of the Black family.”
African-American Attitudes, Perceptions, and Beliefs toward Marriage Equality
National Black Justice Coalition
Clearly the black community doesn’t just wash up of the shores of Britain and America over night and looking to many of the originating countries it helps give an understanding of culture and belief in many of the native countries that the black communities originate from.
UK government minister challenged Jamaican PM about homophobia
Caymans define marriage amid fears UK will impose civil partnerships
EU may rebuke Gambian president over threats against gays
Elections could bring hope for gay Zimbabweans
Stop aid to homophobic countries says Tatchell
Nigerian Sharia court punishes lesbian couple
And just one last point on your little calculations of how the vote panned out. Its my understanding that you can actually be black and republican (Condoleezza Rice for example), so again, probably unintentional, but you might want to knock that bit or racial stereotyping on the head as well
don’t forget the 30% who are on our side. This article reinforces the gay racist stereotype what was the point of it?
Bill, who cares…. you’re an angry nut.
And Robert, quit being such a pompous bitch. Will makes infinitely more sane contribution to this site that you ever did.
Cheers Ciaran for the vote of support, but I’m not going to respond to Roberts petty little remarks, remarks from a man who’s primary response to a difference of opinion is histrionics. Let him support Perdue and his racist remarks, bitter queens are ten a penny… you think at his age he’d have more sense.
Believe me twisted sister, I am not your friend. You have no friends here except racists like Luke and Rob Neal and all those people with no history who appear out of nowhere to defend the latest Tory hoax you’re peddling. This almost looks like you’ve been using the web, but given your hopeless ignoarace it’s more likely hired someone. Whatever, your understanding of the US is as shallow and partisan as your ignorance about the country you call home.
All of you comments are slanted by your (paid?) rightwing Tory partisanship and the bitterness and anger born or your deeply internalized homophobia.
Your latest hoax, saying that all or most African Americans are opposed to same sex marriage and GLBT rights is a lie. In this case the racist attempt to blame African Americans for our defeat in California is based on one flawed CNN exit poll. The response of racists to the CNN poll gave us a not too startling internal poll of the level of racism in the GLBT movements here and in your country.
We were defeated by Euroamerican voters, not African American voters and the stats I presented above prove that without a doubt. African American votes could not have made the difference. It’s statistically impossible.
Stupid twisted sister, African American culture is not based on Gambian, Cayman Islands, Zimbabwean, Jamaican or muslim cultures. It’s as ignorant to say that as to think that Boston is Irish, that LA is Mexican or that Minneapolis is Swedish town. American culture is a vibrant blend of native, African, Asian and European cultures, not unlike what Europe may become.
Except for the examples linked is islamists, which you used for filler, homophobia in the countries you cite is based in part on the English colonial/anglican cult heritage and holdover laws. That heritage and those leftover Tory homophobic laws are problem our movements are still struggling to overcome in the, India, Malaya and the Caribbean states.
Here’s a bit of history to enlighten your calculated ignorance, twisted sister. In the US anti-GLBT sentiment among African Americans only recently became a question because of the work of Karl Rove, who, like you is a determined right wing opponent of LGBT rights. During the Bush Administration, Rove, Bush’s political director used federal money camouflaged as donations for ‘faith based charities’ to bribe televangelists for political support.
That created a layer of christian anti-GLBT groups in all segments of the superstition driven cults but primarily among Euroamericans, as the California, Florida and Arizona votes strikingly confirm. There was some penetration into African American cults and that’s what the NAACP, Willie Brown and the NBJC are talking about. They are certainly not saying anything that would back up the racist statements that homophobia is a peculiarly African American problem. Reread what you quoted, stupid sister, and you’ll see the NBJC saying clearly that “Our findings suggest that in addition to religious and moral beliefs, African-American attitudes toward marriage equality are influenced by specific cultural beliefs and values rooted in ideas of Black masculinity and sexuality in the dominant culture.”
For ignorant Tories, a common definitions is adjective . 1. ruling, governing, or controlling; having or exerting authority or influence. Get it? The racism of Euroamericans impacts every aspect of minority cultures in the US. Homophobia is imposed by religion and racism.
As for “wog” twisted sister, to repeat, it’s a Troy term. It’s represents the sentiments, and you proved over and over by pandering to the racists, islamophobes, union busters and anti-GLBT bigots who run you party and it’s parent group, the Republican party. It you don’t want to earn the reputation of supporting racism and homophobia then either change your politics or don’t expose yourself.
Bill, I hate to point this out, but Sister Mary has had his right to freedom of speech supported by many on this thread, and an equal number have come to the conclusion that you are, well, a total loser.
Oh, and for the umpteenth time, criticising a homicidal imam who wants to round off his Friday service by chucking me off the highest building in town, doesn’t constitute racism.
And would it be too much to ask (without stoking your paranoia) of who exactly you suspect of being one and the same on this thread? It should certainly amuse those who you have accused already of being Sister Mary (myself and William from Dublin) while showing the others how deeply rooted your problems really are.
But of course no rant from Bill would be complete without his unique grasp of world history. The homophobia throughout the world is due to the imperialistic, capitalitistic, colonialisic English!! While more sober minds may lay the blame for persecution of gays on laws in their host countries passed, or not repealed, in more recent years, Billy Bolshevik roots through his little red book and blames Queen Victoria. Sorry to labour the obvious Billy, but these countries have had decades or centuries to repeal any anti-gay legislation. Why haven’t they done it? Uh, uh, don’t trouble your brain with that one. We can’t have a little light penetrating that red mist of yours.
LOL! Well said Luke! Couldn’t have put it better myself. The only thing worse than a bigot is a bigot that doesn’t think he is one, as Billy here likes to demonstrate that delightful trait against all nations, creeds, and a recent advent, colours. Poor fascist Billy… all alone in his little “RainbowRed organisation”. Population: one twittering nut.
The Tory’s parent group is the Republican party????
Since when? And your proof of this is where? Oh, yes, its a figment of your deranged mind. It another of your lies, silly me.
Bill, your grasp of history is truly a dazzling display of poor education laced with dementia.
Oh, and I believe you were corrected already by Will: The saying “The wogs begin at Calais” was originated by George Wigg, Labour MP for Dudley, in 1949.
And your argument in bold is sooooo convincing. Yes, we should ALL use bold fonts to get our points across. You stupid f***.
Robert “ex-pat”, let me explain something to you. I doubt you capable of listening, but I’ll give it a shot none the less.
I am at a loss as to why you, and your sidekick Perdue, are constantly insulting anyone here with a difference of opinion. It doesn’t take a medical expert to see that Bill Perdue has some clinical or pathological condition, and is obviously in need of help. Referring to people he is addressing in the third party is the first glaringly obvious problem, and his attacks on anyone who prove him wrong, or have a formal education, well, that speaks for itself.
Frankly, I would not be surprised if Bill Perdue dances half naked in Times Square screaming at traffic.
You, it seems, as your “ex-pat” moniker indicates, have some alienation issues to the “old country”. This is hardly surprising, considering ex-pats are usually either fanatically in love with a distorted image of the old country, or hate it. But invariably your view is not based in reality.
What worries me about people like you and Bill, is that you don’t tolerate difference of opinion. Its ironic you mention the BNP:- you both would be quite a catch for them, you both suit the profile. History is full of gays with anger issues, perhaps you model yourself on Ernst Rohm? Bill, of course, has already shown his vile contempt for free speech and racial difference, under the banner of “anti-racism”. This is the lowest calibre of person I can think of.
I was also at a loss as to why Sister Mary, Luke, Will and others repeatidly go on the offensive againbst you and Bill, I thought it a waste of time. However, I now see how important it is not to let people with your warped and angry view of the world get their way and oppress the rights of others to their opinions.
History is full of people like you and Bill, and the last time people didn’t stand up to fanitically agressive and santiminious individuals like you and nuttly little Billy, we all eneded up marching into death camps wearing pink triangles. I don’t use that analogy lightly, this is the ultimate, and invariable, end result of people like you and that lunatic you like to snuggle up to in this forum.
I live in a democracy. I support he rights of the individual. You and Bill obviously dont. But what sickens me the most is that you use a banner of “gay rigths” and “equality” to carry your perverted message of anger and hate to others.
So, my hat is off to Sister Mary, Luke, Will, Adrian and others who, in their small way, stand up to totalitarian and aggressive people like you and Perdue… and long may they do it!
No doubt that racist piece of filth Perdue will accuse me of being a “Tory”. Perhaps, as suggested many times, his education doesn’t stretch far enough to understand that such a comment is simply not an insult to most of us British. It only makes him more pathetic when he uses it.
I’d pity you both enormously, trapped in your self obsessed anger, only I find it hard to pity people of such demeaning character.
I will so no more on the subject, you both are contemptible individuals.
Good day to both of you.
OK, everyone, before this degenerates into another ad-hominem slanging match, might I suggest that you count backwards slowly from 10 before posting.
There are many valid points being made in this discussion, but they seem to be drowning in a sea of vitriol and unsubstatiated abuse. You won’t win any converts to your point of view like that, it just becomes the dialogue of the deaf. Let’s at least try to be civil with each other now, please! And I don’t want to hear ‘Well he started it!’ I haven’t heard a discussion like this since primary school.
Flapjack, I suggest you read a few of Bill Perdue’s postings, you’ll sees a hoax or something.
Well, he started it!
Just joking …..
Well said, Flapjack. Mind you, if this were a school, chances are that it’d be in special measures…
Thanks Darrien… Well, either calmness has returned or everyone has lost interest. Either way I guess it’s an improvement.
I think everyone has at least one valid point to make, it just bugs me that some folks need to go straight for the jugular just to get a simple point across.
We’re better than that, surely? Stick to the facts and steer clear of the personal assaults and the discussion won’t descend into Jerry Springer style ranting! That’s all I wanted to say :)
And who made you moderator, flapjack? Have you read some of the nuts that are posting here????? One guy is basically running his one man dictatorship, and people have a right to respond to that. If you dont like it, then you dont have to read.
Fair enough Martin – don’t fancy the job of moderator, it was just a suggestion, that’s all. The comment is aimed as much at the would be dictators as anyone else, though I’m trying to be even handed here. Besides, in a dictatorship you don’t get the right to reply. I’m just fine with replies by the way, I just prefer the ones that treat me the way the poster would want to be treated! No offence intended…
Martin, I don’t think Flapjack intended to moderate, only asking that that a bit of civility be introduced.
I do, however, agree that this discussion is being hijacked by the “dictator” (assuming you refer to Perdue and his sidekick), and gay people need to stand up to aggressive and oppressive elements like this in our own community.
Flapjack, I think your comments are well made, thank you, and agree the steam has gone out of this “discussion” now that Perdue and EX-Pat have moved on to torment someone else.
Gosh what a read this was! Didn’t bother reading any of Bill’s comments after his first tho…Does anyone know who or what that man actually stands for??? That the majority of black voters voted yes to prop 8, should surprise no-one, for many of the reasons stated above. statistically they are more religious, and statistically less well-educated. The hispanic community are also statistically more homophobic, for cultural and similar religious and educational reasons, that’s why the hispanic cast of “Ugly Betty” decided to do their own TV ad against prop 8 to specifically address the homophobia in their own community. I suppose in Bill’s terms they are self hating racists too for thinking there is homophobia in the hispanic community!
just wanted to add, I often disagreee with ex-pat Rob, but he’s not in the same category as Bill, Rob is still worth having discussions/ arguments with, He’s got a working brain, even if i disagree with some of his conclusions…Bill on the other hand?
Andy, apparently Bill is a member (I use the term “member” lightly, as there’s only one member in this so called “organisation”) of a one man communist club called RainbowRED. There’s no website, no headquarters (other than an indication that’s its in Las Vegas), no address, and no record of it existing in the real world other than being a one man loony brigade. His organisation doesn’t actually DO anything, just posts obscene and offensive remarks on various sites, mostly in the US. Do a google on either name or “RainbowRED” and you’ll see what I mean, it somewhat illuminates the landscape of Bill’s troubled mind.
We did hear once from a poster from the States that Bill is well known among gay organisations in the US for attacks on individuals iwho work there and that do not support his “communist cause”. This was most enlightening.
At one stage I actually thought Bill was a bot, given all his posts, everywhere, are practically the same inane rants. His obvious displeasure at any independent thought or opinion, combined with a tenuous grasp on reality (indeed history as well), makes him a rather distasteful person indeed. May of us here have been at the brunt of his hateful attacks, backed up by Rob ex-pat… Sister Mary is a particular favourite of Perdue’s insanity.
Either way, it seems his purpose in life is to agitate on gay sites in the hope of some 1917 styled gay proletarian uprising.
In one word: cookoo.
Maybe bringing all of this to a close, I’d just like to again thank so many of you for your support of the racist comments issue.
What the story showed is that there is work to do still amongst the black community around the issue of gay equality. I never did, and still don’t think its racist to point that out.
I think what was happening there, was something that was repeated here by a few (okay – one anyway). The black community doesn’t seem to get its head around the fact that you can be both black and gay. The black community makes reference to the gay community and as well the gay community refers to the black community. What everyone overlooks is that there is crossover – gays amongst the black community and blacks amongst the gay community. Emphasising that more may be the key to addressing the issue. Black people have in effect just voted away the rights of a sizeable number of their own community, and they have done so without even realising it.
Equally here there has been an assumption that the entire black vote went to the Democrats. I may be wrong, but my understanding was when all the business about sitting at the back of the bus was sorted out and we got the freedom to vote, we were allowed to stick a cross in whichever box we wished. I’m fairly sure that Condoleezza Rice didn’t vote Obama.
Market research is a tool used by every business to identify its market. To allow them to identify their core customers, who buys the product and who doesn’t. It can be an invaluable sales tool. From this research , it should be very clear now to the gay community where it needs to focus its message and where it needs to work hardest to bring about understanding and change.
In any civilised society we should be able to rise above suggestions of racism for acknowledging the reality that culture and ethnicity can have an impact on how we see the world and other people in it.
I’d like to point out that gay does not equal white. Some of you fail to realize that there are gay people of color out there. The headline of this article is deliberately misleading, but then again, I guess the “Pink” News lives up to its name and makes no bones about who it is really catering to. For a more enlightened (or should I say endarkened?) perspective, read this: http://theangryblackwoman.com/2008/11/08/if-ab-and-bc-but-c-is-not-equal-to-a-then-wtf/
Noite, I read the piece that you directly us with some interest. I’m always interested to see how others will take a few stats and provide an analysis from them, having done the same things for a living for many years.
The article has been written from a very defensive position. I have always taken the view that minorities, whether that be through sexual orientation or through ethnicity, need to ditch this victim mentality (this is the point where a couple of individuals usually jump on me). If we can others to view us as equal, then we need to view ourselves as equal.
When I read the original article of here (as a black homosexual) I didn’t interpret anything negative from the fact that the voting stats where being analysed by among other things ethnicity, in fact I think it is positive, as previously posted because it enables US to identify where work is needed to educate the community. The variance in voting preference between the Afro-American and white communities is significant and, whilst they were a minority voting group, 7% is considered to be statistically significant. There are a number of reasons for this, as I and others have previously posted.
Jimmy Carter and Bill Clinton never would have won the presidency without the near universal support of African Americans. Al Gore never would have won the popular vote in 2000 without the help of black voters. In this election like in those before the black community attempted to vote the Republicans out. The gay community did exactly the same as they have done previously. An extra boost to get both communities to the polls was a very real chance of success. A further boost, particularly to the black community was that the candidate was a member of their own community.
Rather than getting into a slagging match about whose fault it is and why, time would be better served by working with the black communities to bring about a better understanding amongst those communities of why equality is important to us.
Sister Mary, you make excellent points, well said. Its a pity others on this site do not follow your example of citing sources and offering intelligent insights.
Will, thank you your postings. I did as your said and checked Google for that organisation and sure enough, Bill Perdue seems to be the main and only protagonist of that particular group. What a curious little chap he must be. You’re right, despite leanings into extreme right or left politics (I’m not sure which yet) there is no website for him or his organisation, although he seems to go by many names. My research has thrown up he also goes by Donal (his email address is firstname.lastname@example.org appears linked with this Rainbowred thing).
Either way, he does not seem to be a savoury, or indeed sane character, and we are probably better off without him on our side.
And chance Bill you can enlightens as to your purpose with your rainbowred organisation?
twisted sister, your pandering to racists is consistent with your pandering to homophobes. They’re both symptoms of the acid that corrodes those who succumb to it. Most of us don’t know whether to pity you or despise you.
To all the ‘voices’ that appear when twisted sisters needs ‘support’ for her mudslinging, including the latest, a retarded retread named slick willie, aka Will, aka Wsilliam, aka William of Dublin (Ohio) aka the Dunce – it won’t work. You’ve tried it dozens of times and we’re still here.
What’s on trial here are the usual suspect associated with the rightwing politics of the Tories – racism, homobigotry, racist islamophobia, and the putrid misogyny exemplified by twisted sisters disgusting remarks.
Rob Neal has been trolling forums such as this since the dawn of the internet. Once again the masses are suckered by his comments.
Oh, what’s wrong Billy? Hit a nerve, did we? Expose your sad little “organisation” for what it is, a one man’s deranged fantasy?
Ha Ha Ha…. I love it.
I can only assume you are confusing racialism and racism. You might want to look them both and check you’re not getting a little bit confused over the two.
I think that you probably are and, whilst it might be a wee bit embarrassing to admit it now after you’ve been making such a fuss, you’ll probably look back at it in a couple of years time and have a bit of a laugh at yourself , in just the same was a some of us are laughing at you right now.