It’s toast. All the counties where 8 was losing have been fully counted; the remaining counties are all pro 8 counties. The fat lady is singing.
Well it’s results like this that truly demonstrates how one of the most powerful countries in the world can also be the most backward, naive and blinkered. God would bless America if he existed. I’m surprised they still don’t burn witches.
I personally am more in favour of partnership rights, as I don’t want to mimic straight marriage, but I respect the right to choose, and the right of others to have marriage if they want, but looking at positives here… its a fairly close battle. Yes it won’t pass, but I would be more disheartened if it was passed by 80% or so. You could argue that half of California’s population is sanctimonious in their belief that marriage is for straight couples only, and god forbid we reject the sanctity of Britney Spears 55 hours “just-for-fun” marriage in 2004, but the other side of the coin is that half its population believe in equality… and without doubt this is an increase from the last decade and the decade before.
So, while we’ve lost this battle, the war is far from over, as they say, but we’re trending in the right direction. Remember, in the USA, it took them until 1964 to pass a Civil Rights act, many many years after the abolition of slavery… they’re a slow moving country, that’s full of, unfortunately, slow thinking people.
Rob Neal, again, so America is a backward country? You hardly support full marriage equality for gay couples so what are you getting so bent out of shape about? You should be glad since most of you don’t want the right to marry by choice? You’d probably vote to ban marriage for gays in the UK if you could along with all the other neocons you associate with. What America and six other countries have done is far more radical than the UK and others could ever achieve. Connecticut and Massachusetts allow marriage and now that New York state has complete control of the state senate, it will also pass legislation already drafted to allow gay couples to legally marry and it didn’t even opt for second class civil unions. Its more radical than anything the UK has ever done. Name one county in the UK where gay couples can legally marry if they so choose? A resounding zero, and that’s how it will remain forever.
Secondly, where else but in America could a person of colour, a minority at that become overwhelmingly its national leader in a country with its own social problems and issues? Definitely nowhere in Europe and definitely never in the UK. Far more radical than any other western country has achieved let alone imagined.
Well, Robert, you make your case it in such a angry way you lose the point of what you’re trying to say.
Firstly, you can only compare like with like, and the EU is a different country politically and culturally than the USA.
In the EU, there are 25 member states, in which you can marry same sex couples in 4. That’s higher than the USA in both number, percentage and population, as in the USA there are only 3 out of 50. Also, civil partnerships are available in 11 states, while most of the USA’s states do not even offer anything near the rights of the UK’s civil partnership.
Bear in mind, membership of the EU requires repeal of all anti-homosexual legislation under the treaty of Amsterdam. Can the USA say the same? No, it can’t. The USA offers very little protection for gay people in these areas. Not to mention, culturally, as a country you are far more at the mercy of conservatives and the religious right. The last election not so long ago put a man into the highest office who believed god was speaking to him on a daily basis and waged an illegal war on a sovereign country… in Europe, that’s grounds for insanity.
Many countries, like the UK and Ireland, have strong anti-discrimination laws to prevent unfair discrimination in the provision of service and and employment. The USA have very little in this area.
So, please, do not try to belittle the EU, or the UK, in favour of the USA without backing up your facts. Clearly this issue is one that is emotive to you, and they is your business, but do not get on a soapbox and proclaim that the USA is far ahead of the EU in the area of gay rights. It’s very much not, and I for one am glad I am here and not over there.
BTW, Will, you make a good point there, we *are* on the right road.
The notion that all Americans are idiots is a wide one, and, unfortunately, usually a true one.
They are, as a nation, a poorly educated people living in a constant state of fear and prejudiced. Lets hope Obama can really make a few changes, for their sake.
And I agree with Ciaran, “I for one am glad I am here and not over there”
I live in Los Angeles and from what I can see tonight Rob Neal is not so far off the mark in his comment, Robert. Canada and other entire countries like Spain allow gay marriages…and they don’t call themselves the land of the free like we do. It took a nearly a century and a half for a person of color as you put it to become president. And to add a note of irony: Exit polls show that the racial group that most voted against allowing gay marriage?…were blacks. Rob Neal might have been a little exuberant in calling us backward, but we’re certainly not at the forefront of civil rights equality any longer, are we Robert?
That just sucks, too bad for californians :( but hey don`t give up, i bet 5 years ago the YES would have had a lot more supporters, in this ballot is was almost head to head, maybe in 5 more years people would finally understand that love have no boundaries and you can call for another ballot and finally approve gay marriage on your state, keep fighting, nobody said it was gonna be easy. Best wishes to all the USA GLBT community from Venezauela..
I am so deeply disappointed in our state for allowing Prop 8 to pass, I thought we had come further than amending our constitution to allow discrimination-we should be ashamed of ourselves. The city I live in once did not allow blacks to live here-will we go back to that? Maybe we can pass a bill so that only those of the same ethnicity are allowed to marry? California wake up-discrimination is discrimination-you can’t pick and choose. For the first time i am ASHAMED to be a native of California. As a married grandma of eight i hope my grandkids are able to be more tolerant than many in our state.
Robert, I usually agree with your comments and think they’re well-though out, but this time I wholly agree with Ciaran. While you make some sensible points, Robert, I believe that the USA *is* behind the UK and Europe in gay rights. And while I’m absolutely delighted (and very relieved) that Obama won, don’t forget that the UK abolished slavery some 60 years before the US. The UK isn’t perfect by a long way, but at least we have anti-discrimination legislation for LGBT people which is, in my opinion, ahead of most of the states of the USA. And although there are plenty of homophobes here, I hear from my US friends that there are many more in the US, and the fundamental Christians seem based in the US too, although they seem to be reaching out towards the UK in a frightening way, eg the Christian Institute.
But, back to Prop 8:- it’s horribly disappointing that so many people backed this divisive proposition. If Prop 8 had lost, I think it would have been a huge boost for LGBT rights in the US. I’m sad that it passed – very sad.
Can you believe it on the day America as whole goes “liberal” these states are showing homophobia is very much alive and kicking!!!!
I have a feeling that this horrible results is likely to overlooked in the general euphoria over the results in the general election.
Robert – you’re right that we don’t have gay marriage here in the UK, but the rights afforded by our civil partnerships are identical to those of marriage. I suspected we opted for civil partnerships here rather than marriage as a crafty political move to neuter opposition in the Lords which, let’s not forget, blocked early attempts to promote gay rights early in the Blair government.
It’s amazing how homophobic the US are. I’m French, and very proud to be a European. In Europe, gay people may get married in many countries. There are civil partnerships. US are disgusting. The Americans are homophobic. I hate your country. That’s where religions leeds… When I was young, in Europe, there was the American dream. Today, for gay people, it’s the European dream.
Thank you “sohappy” for the confirmation if one was needed that you and the religionists who oppose us are nothing more than a collective of lieing hate-filled, usually not very well educated bigots obsessed with power. As the “churches” have decided to openly become political, I suggest now is the right time for a vigorous campaign to remove their tax exempt status in America, let’s begin with the Mormon’s as a test case. Just think of the good that the Federal Government will do with money that would then be paid in tax it would pay for Health Care for everyone for a start,I can’t wait for the Supreme Court’s judgment on that particular case. Make no mistake “sohappy” it’s equality for all in conformity with the Constitution of the United States of America and the fight will go on, only now more determined than ever before. What you, sohappy, and your fellow bigots stand for is the throwing down of the Constitution for religious purposes and that is un-American and deeply un-Patriotic, shame on you all.
Californians should riot if this passes. The audacity in giving rights and then taking them away only a few months later is just astounding and horrific.
As for this country, I feel sure that true gay marriage will come about eventually, just as it did in Norway after many years of civil partnership laws for gay people there. We just have to leave enough time for the wrinkly old prunes in the government to cotton on to the idea that gay couples having rights isn’t actually destroying anything. Robert saying that gay marriage proper will be unavailable in the UK “forever” is really quite awful, and how does he see this shameful future anyway? Does he have a crystal ball?
Yes maybe, but the American’s who fought for freedom in Europe in 1943 to rid us of the Nazi’s would be disgusted if not actually repelled at you “FrenchSuck” for the deeply stupid bigot that you undoubtedly are, go and ask them who actually did it. Try to grow up and accept that other people are different from you and learn to live and let there’s a good chap. Oh! by the way there is no god, so stop worrying, it’s ok to be gay even for you too.
i think the news from california/florida/arizona is disappointing but not surprising. America is not READY for gay marriage because there are too many brainless backward hypocrites like “sohappy” over there….. But it’s not just America, a recent survey for the Observer Newspaper in Britain found that a majority of straight voters here were also against gay marriage. It’s not a surprise, but mercifully we don’t have those ridiculous referendums over here. And also to agree with several other commentators and disagree with ex-pat rob ( yet again-sorry!) we opted for civil partnership which give identical rights without the controversy. Even our conservative party is committed to gay civil partnerships, which is more than Canada and Spain can say where their conservatives have threatened to overturn gay marriage…. Ex-pat rob, you say name one county in the uk that has gay marrriage, don’t be so parochohial! what use is one county or one state if the rest of the country doesn’t recognise it? And if votes like prop 8, keep overturning gay marriage rights state by state, than the decision to enact gay marriage in the first place isn’t radical, it’s counterproductive, and USELESS! I bet if california had opted for comprehensive Civil-partnerships, giving equal rights in all areas as the UK did, proposition 8 would never have got it’s million signatures, let alone got passed. And gay couples in california would still have their rights intact. You have to live in the real world! I do think in the real world with a decent human-being running america for a change, the US could see civil partnership legislation enacted at a national level. I am familiar with the argument that only a marriage called a marriage is valid, but i disagree, as i’ve said many many times on this site, my American partner would have been forced to go back there without our civil partnership 2 and a half years ago. Now he has permanent residency and is applying for citizenship on the basis of our civil partnership. For gods sake take equal rights when they are offered, and quibble about terminology later. Sweden introduced civil partnerships in the 1990′s, and now over a decade later is ready to convert them to gay marriage…GREAT but it’s taken over a decade for the population to get fully behind the idea, i’m sure in a decade the UK and most of Europe will have full gay marriage, but America won’t unless it opts for civil partnership first, and gives it’s moronically conservative elements time to get their tiny minds around that idea first. Finally barack obamas victory is FANTASTIC, but why do you always find it necessary to insult the UK and Europe? I’ve lived in london for 15 years in 3 different constituencies and every single one of them has had a black Member of Parliament,Dianne Abbott in Hackney, Oona King in Bethnal Green and David Lammy in Tottenham and Britain’s black community has only been here in any size for 50 years, In America it took them over two hundred years to free black people from slavery, and another hundred and fifty to let them drink from the same water fountains or sit down at the front of buses, so don’t you dare lecture Britain on Minority rights, when Americas record is the worst in the western world! It looks like with Obama they’ve got there in the end and i salute them, but it took 400 years!
By making the fight one for “marriage or nothing,” LGBT campaigners in the US seem to have gambled everything and (with a few exceptions) lost. Why this Manichean insistence that same-sex partnerships MUST be called marriage? It seems a red-herring to me. Why not adopt the sensible option of allowing legally-recognised civil partnerships between gay or straight couples in all US states (and which must be recognised between US states), and allow cultural and religious groups to decide whether or not these partnerships constitute ‘marriage’.
Andy, FYI…Canada’s conservative government under Stephen Harper already decided to keep marriage equality legal by putting it to a vote. His government lost the vote to reverse it and it won’t succeed in Spain either. Sorry to disappoint you.
You lost – thanks for putting words into our mouths. I don’t consider straight people to be ignorant, just the bigots. If the cap fits, wear it.
A great shame. It goes to show that outside the cities, America is steeped in superstition. ONly when people leave religion will you get acceptance. Something like over 90% of people believe in god, half the population believe the earth is literally 6,000 years old, and a quarter of them expect jesus to come back in the next 50 years. Mind you, with the way faith schools are opening up everywhere in england and brainwashing people, we might end up with a similar situation in a generation’s time….
By the way, the list of donors for banning marriage is found at:
Robert, grow up. If you want to be a pompous little bitch all you life, that’s fine, but hows about keeping your little tantrums to yourself so we don’t all have to suffer them.
And speaking of little bitches, “you lost”, you top the list.
I will have been happily “married” for three years next month to a man, so please do not make groundless assumptions.
At least in this country we make one law, not 52 separate ones.
I agree with Andy’s view that this will take time and what we have is civil partnership that introduces people to that idea first. Yes banning same sex marriage is unjust, it violates human rights but what good does policy do when it is a predominately feel good token phrase used by public servants during political get togethers. Human Rights is failing in every area, not just with gays yet with the backing of religion, gay marriage is a hard nut to crack. I guess women’s lib and multi-culturalism took a lot of power away from mysoginists and racists……. marriage for some is the last line of defence for superiority and they will protect that. I personally would prefer to create something solely original that does not mimic conventional marriage….. ditch the duchess satin i say, we are expected to be far more creative.
After the euphoria of Obama getting elected, hearing that Prop 8 had almost definitely passed left me feeling sick to my stomach. If one of the most liberal states in the union will vote against gay marriage what hope is there that the federal government will pass it?
I’m British and I met my American partner whilst living in the States. We live in Britain now purely because there is no provision for her to sponsor me under US law.
Ex-pat Robert, not sure how you got into the States but you are luckier than most. When my temporary work visa expired the choices for me to stay in the States were: a) Try to get other temporary work visas for crappy, no-future jobs and hope one day I’d get to stay permanently, b) Marry an American man so he would sponsor me to stay or c) live there illegally. This is despite the fact that I am a University graduate with a professional background – for immigration purposes I would have to have an employer declare that no American could do the job they wanted to hire me for. Unsurprisingly I went for choice d) – moved back to Britain and sponsored my partner (now my civil partner) to come and join me there – in a country she’d barely been to before, leaving behind friends, family and the country she loved. Two years (and many sacrifices) later we both have good jobs and she has permanent leave to remain in the UK – we exercised our equal rights and it’s all worked out. However, more than anything we want at least the option of returning to live together in the States.
I’m sorry, I really don’t understand this insistence in the US that it’s marriage or nothing. Civil partnerships give us the same rights as married couples and you don’t have all the religious/cultural baggage that comes with the word ‘marriage’. Many of my straight friends are angry that they can’t choose a civil partnership rather than a wedding! Yes, I do believe people should be able to get married if they wish and I’m sure that over time that right will be added. But for now I’m pretty happy with the equal rights provided by civil partnership certificate.
Many of the civil partnered couples that I know refer to themselves as married and no-one argues with that – even David Cameron made a speech about supporting marriage where he specifically stated that he was including civil partnered couples in that term. Card shops in every high street in Britain carry congratulations cards featuring same-sex couples alongside the other wedding cards. You can even use a civil partnership certificate in the same way as a marriage certificate as proof of name change.
Robert, I think you’ve been away from Britain for too long. I have lived in both Britain and the States and attitudes to LGBT people vary in both countries. However, I have rarely encountered in Britain the religion-fuelled intolerance and hatred that is so prevalent in certain parts of America. Against that backdrop I just don’t see how anyone (even Obama with his popularity and senate majority) could push through legislation legalising same-sex marriage on a federal level. The best we can hope for right now is an American equivalent to civil partnerships, and even passing that is going to be unpopular.
I really hope that Obama makes passing civil union legislation (giving the same rights and responsibilities as marriage) an early priority. Individual states can pass as much marriage/civil union legislation as they like, only when it’s passed federally will LGB people in places like Mississippi and Texas be afforded the same rights and protections as those lucky enough to live in places like Vermont and New York. Only when it’s passed federally will bi-national couples like my partner and I be recognised under US immigration law. And only when it’s passed federally will US citizens across the country be forced to realise that gay couples do exist everywhere, that we are just ordinary people, often living quietly in committed relationships, and that we are only asking for equal rights to everyone else.
Hi Plainjane, just read your msg and wanted to say thankyou! YOU understand what this is really about, the love between 2 people and the rights and responsibilities that should go with that. The word marriage is just a word, but in the minds of conservative christians it’s become a rallying cry. You are in the same position as me, except my American partner and I met in the UK and would prefer to stay here. Civil partnership has given us all the rights we could ever want as a couple, everyone we know gay or straight, including my parents and my employers refer to him as my “husband”..He too has permanent residency and will have his british passport in a couple of months, with that we can live and work anywhere together in britain or across the EU. 25 countries to choose from! and all because of a piece of legislation that ex-pat Robert derides and dismisses. In the US, even in the states that supposedly have gay marriage and have not yet had it repealed, he could never have married me, just like your girlfriend could not have married you because as foreigners we would never have been given the legal immigration status that civil partnership automatically brings to all foreign spouses. I don’t want to criticise you Robert, because you contribute alot to this forum and I agree with you on some things but you are WRONG about this, and while you keep knocking your head against that wall called “marrriage”, and dissmiss equal rights under the far more acceptable-to conservative christians- term civil partnership, you are denying rights to people like plainjane and her girlfriend who want to live together in the states but can’t. Marriage or nothing isn’t going to work in America of all places
andy, Rob Neal and Luke gave us another dazzling display of their pretentious skinhead Tory politics while simultaneously proving that they’re quite happy wallowing in ridiculous chauvinism. Colonel Blimp would be so proud of the insular rubbish that passes for thinking among thatcherites.
If bonehead national chauvinists like these three spent half the effort they put into their delusional hatred of Americans (it still smarts, after 200 years) on something worthwhile like the elimination of bigotry then maybe, just maybe, we could justify their use of our oxygen. But I doubt it. Their insular Tory divisiveness and total lack of international solidarity only benefits the bigots, which is why internalized homophobes like them do it.
And then there’s “Leroy”. Little Leroy pretends to be “amazed” at homophobia in the US. If he wants to see a real homophobe all he has to do is look in the mirror.
Will and rjb, in the US the differences between the clearly second class status of civil unions (which deny roughly 1,200 financial and other privileges available to married straight couples) and marriages are pretty stark and totally unacceptable. rjb, you’re wrong, states do not have to recognize same sex marriages from other states. Google it.
That’s why we want federal laws giving all the rights of marriage to all citizens. Then the question of whether they’re called marriages, civil partnerships or just shacking up is moot, because every one is equal. But until then it’s not a quibble over semantics, it’s a basic demand for equality.
Secondly, rjb, you’re way off base claiming that we initiated these ballot propositions. In California the Supreme Court struck down bigot laws preventing marriage equality. Then the cults, the moronians, the altar boy rapists and the evanjellyforbrains christers attacked us, not the other way around. They attacked, we defended. Why would you claim otherwise?
We are not likely to get anywhere without a mass movement that utilizes boycotts combined with large, angry, disruptive demonstrations as part of a constant and robust battle for equality. That’s because both parties are run by superstitious bigots like Obama and McCain.
Edward in LA, the reason we lost California, Florida, Arkansas and Arizona and even LA County was, first and foremost, the brazen bigotry of Obama and McCain and the supine refusal of Democrats to call him on it. Day in and day out throughout the campaign he said same sex marriage was a sin condemned by his ‘god’.
That’s the meaning of ‘god’s in the mix’. That’s why we lost. He galvanized and mobilized the bigots who came out in droves to vote their bigotry.
Ah, how predictable, another vile rant by that creature who calls itself Bill Perdue. The communist who doesn’t support free speech and autonomy of independent thought.
No one here mentioned “pretentious skinhead Tory politics”, yet you deem it fit to add it into the conversation. You’re either deluded or a liar. I suspect a bit of both. Most people here have made some good points, and they are entitled to speck their mind without your incipid and obnoxious presence. Will, who you berate, used facts and figures. Clearly you mind can comprehend these, I suspect probably due to alcohol or substance abuse.
I pray that you being gay is as far away as possible to me being gay. You’re a disgrace to GLBT rights and freedom of speech.
And a freak.
The only bigot here is YOU, Perdue. Take your ridiculous and warped 18th century commie politics and stick them where you’ve never been f*cked.
Gosh, now I’m really scared.
I’m getting the Tory “treatment”, the favored tool of rancid ultra rightist piglets. Since they’re clueless and incapable of political thought they start tossing mud. Just like the tired old shoats Luke and Ron, their job is to try to stop discussion, pulling it down with f personal attacks.
They jump up at odd times to attack Robert, anti-racists like Omar Kuddus and others who won’t kowtow to the Tory party line.
Their problem is that they fail to impress. Their bullying is overplayed, predictable and inept, but they’re Tory/DUP dunces and tediously predictable.
Hush, now Bill.
While we’re all suitably dazzled by your staggering command of the cut and paste feature on your PC to produce these numbingly repetitive and tired rants, its really rather tedious.
The only person here “to try to stop discussion” is you, with your childish insights to world politic decorated with endlessly repetitive insults.
These people here are not insulting you, there’ telling you the truth about yourself. You’re a sad and angry old fool, Perdue, and your day has come and gone without so much as anyone blinking at your direction.
Will reminds me of Wsilliam of Dublin (Ohio). Poor, poor Wsilliam, he left us some months ago in a great sulk because PinkNews got tired of his rancid racism and began censoring him.
Petulantly, he said he’d never return but…
Do you know what I admire the most about Will, and about Wsilliam of Dublin? It’s the fact that they both have TWO DEGREES,. Will got his online, breaking all records by getting both in a frenzy of scholarship in just under six weeks. He now has a doctorate in chiropractic nuclear dentistry and one in motel management. Wow. Impressive. And smart too, his IQ, which has been compared to that of a turnip with a severe truancy record, or with George Bush’s IQ, which amounts to the same thing. That’s why Will is Tory scuzwad.
Rob Neal, oh my, your knowledge of America is pretty dismal. There are 50 states not 52 last time I checked. You can pretend you’re married all you want, you’re not. Take your civil partnership certificate outside the country and you tell me if its recognised as a legal marriage. Where is it written, provide the evidence? Explain why British couples who actually marry legally in places like Canada for instance return to the UK with the words “certificate of marriage” clearly stated thereon and yet it is not recognised for what it is. If they were so equal, the British government wouldn’t have any trouble reading them as they are. You may be trying to fool me but you and others fool yourselves. Separate in inherently unequal, apart. You may have everything you want under the law and that’s fine, but in reality you’ve gladly and willingly embraced segregation. I suppose you think Holland, Belgium, Spain, Norway, Canada, South Africa and soon Sweden should have followed the UK’s example? I wonder why they didn’t? Bill and I and a few others on here know why.
Luke…..you will never win trying to bait me, pretending that another Luke posted disparaging remarks, slurs and foul language. Its all the hallmark of YOU. I’m surprised you’re not using another name entirely like some do on here to give the appearance that there are more on your side of an argument. So transparent.
LOL @ Bill. You attempts to be funny are almost as sad as your attempts at historical accuracy!
We have already learned that you Billy, lie repeatedly about your education on various US sites, and have attacked genuine gay rights organisation with your bile. My experience here is that Will has demonstrated his education, as has others like Sister Mary and Luke… you have clearly demonstrated the opposite.
Your attempt at slander only make you one bit more the pathetic retard you already are.
Try reading a book instead of lining your kennel with them.
And Robert, did you go to school with Bill lunatic Bolshevik? Your language is very similar, as is your painfully boring and repetitive diatribes.
Please. Stop trying to say that two people of the same sex marrying is normal. It is not.
The Californian people have spoken……..For the second time.
Penis’ don’t belong in rectums!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Susan, and idiots shouldn’t own computers, yet clearly you do, so where do we draw the line? You have no right to tell another two people how to love, and in time that ban in California will be removed.
Your silly postings are the death rattle of your kind.
Susan – the Californian people have spoken… well at least slightly more than 50% of them think like you do. Not that that 50% represent the gay community or have the slightest vested interest in gay marriage, or the lack of it.
As for your hangup about penises and rectums, that will still happen whether you like it or not, and I don’t see how that’s in any way morally inferior to penises in vaginas.
I don’t see why someone like yourself who isn’t in a gay relationship should have the power to veto anyone else’s marriage, gay or straight. If I told you you weren’t allowed to marry your loved one because I didn’t like straight sex personally, you’d think I was an arrogant tosser who should mind his own business. Same goes…
Yes, Bill, TWO degrees. Both from Trinity College.
Can you say the same?
No, I didn’t think so. Oh, the ones your printed our for yourself in an internet cafe don’t count.
You just some vagrant agitator with delusions of being someone. Your a sorry excuse for a human being Perdue, and I get great mileage out of laughing at your repeated failures and foolishness in life.
Thanks for the back up Ciaran… god bless the Irish, we sure do know how to stick together :)
Bill, you use the term “rancid racism” against another here, I’m sure it makes you feel better about yourself given I just read on another thread of postings where you used racially offensive terms against them for being black?
I’m assuming your a joke post?