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“Gay rights don’t trump religious rights” says Christian Institute

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  1. wow, so religious bigatory trumps human rights. shame on them.

  2. Martin Davies - C of E Gay Clergy Spouse 10 Jul 2008, 2:01pm

    And Religious ‘rights’ do not trump HUMAN RIGHTS not to be persecuted socially, physically, mentally, spiritually, economically!

    But they do!!!

  3. Andrew Reynolds 10 Jul 2008, 2:18pm

    A strongly held “belief” is just that – a belief. Being black or a woman or gay is not a choice and putting religious belief on a par with them is disappointing in the extreme.

  4. Robert, ex-pat Brit 10 Jul 2008, 2:34pm

    Clearly, this group just doesn’t get it. When it comes to discriminating in the workplace, Gay rights do trump religious rights. Futhermore, it is incumbent on any employee, governmental or otherwise to do their job. If they don’t like it, find another. While our taxes pay for registrars to do their jobs, the government was wrong in making an exception for those whose religious beliefs are in conflict. Religion is a personal choice, a chosen lifestyle, ours isn’t. The sooner they learn that the better. Religion has absolutely NO place in the execution of one’s job, ever!

  5. Sexual orientation is NOT a choice but religion is. So their argument backfires! TRUMPED!!!

  6. This is a ridiculous and illogical precedent. The Christian institute is trying to make it as broad a precedent as possible in their press releases. It’s so galling with talk of witch hunts. Religious organisations bleating about how persecuted they are for persecuting others is infuriating. Does this mean that a housing worker can refuse to work on cases where they have to house two gay men or two lesbians living together. Or that a teacher can refuse to teach sex education classes that deal with homosexuality. What good is it being protected in equality legislation if the people who hate us the most,and who stir up discrimination and hatred are exempt from treating us equally and have their bad behaviour and bigotry protected. It is ridiculous that the religious have everyone over a barrel because they can justify any dam thing and claim it is about their religious beliefs. The possibilities are endless. They pick and choose and interpret. No two people’s beliefs are ever going to be the same. It is very important that Islington council appeals this for the sake of their gay and Lesbian residents. It is an impossible situation for local authorities who have a duty to provide services equally and yet must employ staff who are potentially exempt from doing so. There will come a day when enough staff are away and people do not get servies because there are staff unwilling to give them.

  7. I have mixed feelings about this. On the one hand, I wouldn’t want my wedding performed by a homophobe scowling her way through the service like she’d been forced to marry a couple of dog turds. On that basis, the knowledge of her homophobic attitudes would be a necessary deciding factor in whether I chose to use that registry office.
    On the other hand, I don’t see why religion should enjoy a privileged position to be as homophobic as it likes and just resort to “those are my deeply held beliefs” as a get out of jail free card. I’m sure Richard Dawkins would have something to say about it. We already conceeded the ‘civil partnership’ label in lieu of ‘officially sanctified marriage’ so I don’t see what her problem is.

  8. Amusing comment there ‘Homosexuality is a chosen lifestyle’ So is following a being that doesn’t exist. I mean how there is a certain Anne Widdecome who disliked the idea of female priests change to a catholic…isn’t that a choice as well?

    Once again bigots win!!

  9. this also opens the door for a Xian manager to treat a gay worker as shit, and claim it’s a religious compulsion!

    I wonder whether there were any Xians on the tribunal?

  10. Long live Science 10 Jul 2008, 8:09pm

    Christians are the scum of the earth. Too bad the Romans didn’t deal with the problem more effectively by just throwing them ALL to the lions. The world would be a better place today.

  11. Absolutely disgusted about this ruling, what next?

  12. in some respect this is what the gay community needs. We have become complacent in our protest for equailty. Gay pride has been hijacked as a carnival, where upon is was originally about rights. As a gay man of 45 , I think I see and experience more homophobia now than ever before. I am at present limited more to where I can go as a gay man saftly than in the 80s. Dear Stonewall , I think your heart is in the right place, but you are losing touch with gay culture and real gay needs. It all very well these laws being in place, but if they are trounced and manovered around by other means, thye are worthless. This is a case in question. Until we can be recognized as say a race, as opposed a choice. NOTHING will change. And now we have the added threat of the TORYS gaining power. We have images of the leading torys at pride, smiling, yet there voting record on gay rights are non exsistant. Real people that believe in equailty will do so by their actions . They have always spoken louder than words. So this Christian group has won their battle. I wonder as they rasie their glasses of champange tonight they will give a thought to the young gay man lying bleeding in a gutter. The gay man scared to leave his home. The two lesbians frightened in the supermarket in case they show to much public affection towards each other. No of course not. If we as gay people really want equailty, we have to start to write , to group and to organize oursleve like they have done. To put our money where our mouths are. To march again as a force, not as a drag queen. There is a time and place for fun and a time and place to state our case. THIS IS THAT TIME!

  13. As a civil servant, if they do not wish to serve the public, they should find another job!

  14. Stewart Cowan 11 Jul 2008, 2:58am

    “The witch hunt against those who disagree with homosexual practice has to stop.”

    And that’s the majority, but, hey, who cares about the majority anymore. They used to call us the ‘moral majority.’

    By the way, please stop saying you were “born gay.” I was born an alcoholic – at least, probably – I seemed to be genetically predispositioned in that direction. I had a miserable decade drinking, but I don’t drink anymore.

    Should I have carried on drinking and said, ‘I was born that way?’

    Peter Tatchell wrote a piece for ‘Pink News’ last month exposing the inadequacy of the genetic explanation for sexuality and also said this:

    Many studies suggest social factors are also important influences in the formation of sexual orientation.

    These include the relationship between a child and its parents, formative childhood experiences, family expectations, cultural mores and peer pressure.

    By about the age of five or six, a combination of biological and social influences seem to lay the basis of an individual’s sexual orientation.

    This is the deal:

    a) Promote sin as normal to help destroy family life.

    b) Get us fighting among ourselves for our ‘rights’.

    The result: a very weak society that can be more easily enslaved into tyranny.

    Look at the BIG picture! The Government doesn’t care about any of us – look through my website and see.

  15. Perhaps its time to stop prancing around pretending to be pseudo women and stand up for our human rights as men who love other men and take this fight to where its needed on the streets and in our wallets. If i were a gay man living in Islington they would find a that if they expect me to pay my taxes then i would demand the services my taxes pay for, and i woulde take it to the highest coust in the world if i had to . Islington must appeal this ridicolous ruling made by a clearly homophobic judge or judges.We MUST win. Churches take from the state of which we ALL are part and pay No taxes. Whos religeous right start paying their equal way ,then they can attempt to

  16. So scientific research means nothing any more, according to the god freaks.Proven research which has been ongoing since the late fifties. How much proven research has there been into the malady that is religious belief I don’t think so and if anyone was fool enough to attempt to carry out such research there would be uproar from the god freaks, because they know deep down that what they believe would not stand up to even cursory scrutiny. Anybody with an independent mind who has even glanced at their so called holy book would soon realize that it is a collection of the most appalling stories ever conceived by the human mind, albeit a stone age mind, illiterate and uneducated,all of which was compiled hundreds of years before and after 0 AD.So in conclusion lets forget all this medieval rubbish and begin caring for each other as Human beings and individuals ,not some lumpen proletariat who spout false dogma, so as to do down our fellow man. Care for each other, not pie in the sky. We are our own saviors not some unseen ,un proven entity which only exists in your brainwashed minds.

  17. I tend to agree with the writer who said this is a wake up call against the carnivalisation and commercialisation of Gay Rights.

    The religious right / extremists do “believe” in all that prehistoric and medieval rubbish and as they have enjoyed privileged positions in many societies around the world for centuries, they are well ticked off that that position is being undermined by more “tolerant and inclusive” secular philosophies.

    Two of their major bigotries are against WOMEN and GAYS. If these groups get rights, then the RELIGIOUS MEN (who mainly run around in frocks to discharge their duties) will have to play a secondary role and what they say will no longer hold sway. This is not about holy books, scriptures and the like. It is about STRAIGHT MEN being able to rule the roost as they see fit and to show complete disregard for anyone and every one who challenges their SUPREMACY.

    This is a warning they are going to fight tooth and nail to hold onto power and they will use religious beliefs of all types to justify their position.

    GAYS and WOMEN are their biggest challengers and they have NO intension of loosing this war. So now is the time to redouble gay rights efforts and to politically re-organise and to not take current gains for granted? They can be reversed and will be if this crowd get their way.

  18. Abi Chrisopher 11 Jul 2008, 9:47am

    If you follow the defence this woman took to is logical conclusion she could discriminate against everyone who do not hold to her religions beliefs so colour, age, religion, sexuality, disability even eye colour might be things her religion objects too a totally crazy ruling I hope this dont set a legal president.

    If we follow her example any LGBT person can object to serving Christians!

  19. In response to the comment above; not all LGBT would object to serving Christians. Some LGBT people are Christians, they are not mutually exclusive.

    I disagree entirely with the ruling but this ruling does not excuse LGBT blanket prejudice against people of faith. Two wrongs don’t make a right. We have to stop reacting by attacking Christianity. Christians are entitled to believe whatever they like and that is right, our beliefs are our own and cannot be legislated. I was appalled to read that this woman had experienced bullying as a result of her beliefs. We don’t have a moral monopoly. Some People are Gay, get over it- Some people are Christians, Get over it. The point is, our beliefs and lifestyles should not affect the services we have access to or our responsibility to fulfill our contracts of employment. Equality and Diversity legislation and policies cannot require people to think in a certain way; however, I am appalled that this ruling gives a loophole for anyone to insist that workplace equalities polices cannot require people to behave in line with equality. What is the their worth now? I can see a raft of cases coming forward next that will completely undermine the relatively recent inclusion of sexual orientation in discrimation law.

    This is a very dangerous precendent.

  20. Quote:By the way, please stop saying you were “born gay.” I was born an alcoholic – at least, probably – I seemed to be genetically predispositioned in that direction. I had a miserable decade drinking, but I don’t drink anymore.

    Should I have carried on drinking and said, ‘I was born that way?’

    Stewart Cowan – I’m not sure I know who’s side you’re on.
    To lump gayness in with alcoholism is pandering to the worst prejudices of the Evangelical right. They are not remotely similar. Alcoholism when encouraged leads you into a downward spiral of mental illness self destruction and depression. The only reason gay people suffer any of that is at the hands of right wing bigots who want to take their rights away or because they are scared and stuck in the closet. If gayness is a so-called choice why did I bother with 8 years of painful psychologically damaging denial, when I could’ve just as easily gone “straight” and got a girlfriend. Answer, I was stuck in a conservative backwater where everyone used phrases such as “they’re revoking clause 28, I suppose they’ll be making paedophilia legal next”. And that was my dad.
    Whether gayness is nature or nurture, one thing it isn’t is a “choice”. My choices were ‘be gay’ or ‘stay in the closet and pretend to be celebate until you go mad’. Next you’ll be advocating “pray out the Gay” as a cure for homosexuality.

  21. Stewart Cowan 12 Jul 2008, 3:19pm

    Flapjack, I am sorry to hear of your torment, I really am. We all have our crosses to bear, it is just unfortunate that many people don’t realise that the Almighty really can mend broken hearts and minds.

    Homosexuality used to be considered mental illness by the medical profession up to the 70s and 80s.

    What changed attitudes was a deliberate campaign to promote homosexual behaviour as normal. Top homosexual activists have stated that their agenda is to destroy normal family life because it is anathema to their lifestyle.

    Social engineers in power want the end of strong successful families and communities because weak people are more easily controlled.

    This contradiction in ‘rights’ legislation is another way of weakening society, whereby this ‘group’ fights that ‘group’ for their perceived rights.

    As I say, there is no equality, just a hierarchy of ideologies.

    So we have Muslim ‘clerics’ who couldn’t be deported because of their ‘human rights’ preaching the destruction of pagans, Jews and Christians.

    Which is another interesting point. If it wasn’t for Christians standing up for truth and decency, the country would be heading (faster) towards another Muslim state.

    We have but this one life and have to make the most of it. We have to ride the storm of temptation and emerge stronger for having done so.

    We have to grasp the idea of eternity and that this short time on earth is for testing our faith.

    We have all sinned, but we have to admit it and repent. The sick media and what passes for education these days, make it seem like sexual activity is compulsory. It’s not!

    And remember, I am spending my time leaving messages like this because I care deeply about the eternal destination of my fellow humans, because there are only two places you can go after this life: paradise or eternal torment – eternal guilt and there is no end to it – ever.

    Life is better with the Almighty on your side. You can put things into perspective easier and give Him your woes. He has the power to change lives and that’s a fact.

  22. Usefully Employed 13 Jul 2008, 1:57am

    I’ll be amazed if this isn’t overturned on appeal. I’ve posted a link to the full judgment on my site. It’s not great!

  23. Stewart… I used to suffer mental anguish. Then I jacked in dogmatic Christanity and guess what? It went. I think my original problem had something to do with cognative dissonance. You interpret the stats whichever way works for you.
    BTW there is another place you can go after this life that isn’t Heaven or Hell. We call this place a cemetery, and I think you’ll find the great majority of folks go there when they die.

  24. What kind of sick Christian logic is this? This woman complains that she is being discriminated against because of her religion, a religion which she gleefully uses to discriminate against others! What a hypocrit!

  25. Stewart Cowan’s website takes every chance to attack gays and lesbians in the most vile ways. His lies here about the American Psychiatric Association’s motives for REPEATEDLY re-stating that homosexuality is not any form of mental illness have been debunked. On his web site he campaigns against gays and lesbians being adoptive parents, using vile propaganda and lies, and he boasts about owning this business, which should be boycotted from one end of the Internet to the other, if you value your life at all:

  26. > By the way, please stop saying you were “born gay.” I was born an alcoholic – at least, probably – I seemed to be genetically predispositioned in that direction. I had a miserable decade drinking, but I don’t drink anymore.
    Should I have carried on drinking and said, ‘I was born that way?’

    What a ridiculously ignorant comment. Please stop talking like you have any knowledge of genetics and homosexuality, you’re only making yourself look like a fool (as if your confessed alcohol problem gives you any credibility…).

  27. Allan, why does none of that surprise me! Booky is right. Frankly the “reformed alcoholic” comment says it all. This has a similar ring to it to the Scientology drug rehab programme. It’s a “get-em while their mind’s turned to mush” recruitment drive by a dubious religion which has difficulty recruiting rational people.

  28. If you take a second or two and read any of the myriad Human Rights Proclamations, Declartions, Acts, and such you will repeatedly read in them the right of religion, thought and conscience. NONE of those documents have written in them anywhere the right to practice sexual perversion.

  29. Quote: If you take a second or two and read any of the myriad Human Rights Proclamations, Declartions, Acts, and such you will repeatedly read in them the right of religion, thought and conscience. NONE of those documents have written in them anywhere the right to practice sexual perversion.

    Jack – I would personally like to see this research you did into human rights proclaimations. It sounds to me that you are simply asserting religious bigotry under the guise of some bogus trump card dreamt up by right wing religious propogandist organisations. I’m pretty sure it would require more than “a second or two” to go down that exhaustive list. Secondly, “sexual pervertion” as you imply gayness constitutes is in the eye of the beholder. Ad-hominem labeling of minority groups doesn’t constitute a well balanced arguement.
    You’ll have to do better than that…

  30. Bishop Ioan 19 Mar 2009, 4:18pm

    Yes, Stewart Cowan is absolutely, positively insane. Just amazing what a person can choose to believe.

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