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Jewish academic attacks gay Holocaust memorial

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  1. Robert, ex-pat Brit 30 May 2008, 1:04pm

    Tsk, tsk, a zionist who hates and believes in discrimination. Shame on him and shame on Israel, and they wonder why antisemitism is on the rise.

  2. Leather Master 30 May 2008, 1:39pm

    How dare another persecuted Holocaust group receive validation and thus take away from the stranglehold on Ha-Shoah pity that the Jews continue to lord over the world. First, millennia of being despised for erroneously carrying on about being some invisible sky bully’s “chosen people”, then being trounced further by the vile Nazi agenda, and now the gays stepping on their “glory”. I guess not enough of the right kind of homosexuals were killed in order to meet this Gutman’s standard. Calling him an “academic” is a great miscarriage of logic; the label hateful hypocrite will do much better.

  3. “If visitors have the impression that there was not a great difference between the suffering of Jews and those of homosexuals, it’s a scandal.”
    I think the fact that the Jewish memorial consists of hundreds of concrete blocks, and the gay memorial is just one, kind of points out the fact that the Jews were persecuted far more than gays. That, however, does not mean that the gay victims deserve no memorial. And to say that any gay victims were “the victims of political battles within Hitler’s National Socialist Party rather than a campaign of homophobia” is blatantly ignoring facts, sources and documents that state otherwise. It is akin to holocaust denial.

    No-one is down-playing the immense tragedy that was the Jewish holocaust… it was indeed one of, if not the most heinous crime ever perpetrated by man against his fellow man, but to attack the construction of a memorial for another group of victims, and not a small group either, is just childish. It does not take away the importance of the Jewish holocaust, it simply shows people that other groups were targeted. As the article states, gay victims were put back into prison after the end of the war (if they had survived in the camps) for the most part, and were not officially recognised as having been victims of the holocaust until this decade. Their persecution at the hands of the Nazi’s has largely been brushed under the carpet by historians and other groups.

  4. Daniel Loftin 30 May 2008, 3:08pm

    Rebbe Gutman is in error in stating that it was only German gays and that it was internal political wrangling. There is documentation and literature on this. Shame on him. He should know better. Any ethical Jew knows better than to do this.

  5. “my persecution is more valid than yours!!”

    something is clear that within the camps the gays were treated as the lowest form of life, with everyone including the Jews spitting on them.

    The death of a single person through this crime is as heinous as any other death in the same circumstances: a dead Jew isn’t a greater trgedy than a gay man

  6. William - Dublin 30 May 2008, 7:53pm

    Isn’t this just another sad case of the oppressed becoming the oppressors? This guy is not an academic, just a small bigot.

  7. DS-New YOrk 31 May 2008, 1:04am

    The attitude of this small-minded and bigoted “academic” doesn’t really surprise me. Israel is a horribly homophobic country.

  8. I suppose the Jews are becoming concerned about the ever dwindling numbers, and feel their monopoly on victim status threatened.

    Danish official holocaust researcher refutes Six Million claim:

    The real figure probably lies around four million, says holocaust archeologist Anders Otte Stensager, connected with the government financed ‘Department for Holocaust and Genocide Studies’ of The Danish Institute for International Studies (DIIS) .

    http://blog.balder.org/?p=409

  9. Robert, ex-pat Brit 31 May 2008, 1:24pm

    I suppose the bigot would apply the same contempt for gypsies, the lame and crippled and other “undesirables” who perished along with them. Shouldn’t matter the number of Jews or any group that perished, the fact that this inhumanity ever occurred is shameful enough. Shame on this man who does nothing more than to invite antisemitism by his assinine remarks and I doubt if he represents the majority opinion in Israel.

  10. elizabethveldon 31 May 2008, 8:26pm

    balder:

    I find your comment as astounding as that of the ‘scholer’ quoted in the article.

    To sugest that the Holicause is any less if a smaller number died is Holicaust Denial pure and simple.

  11. So . . . it’s okay to deny the GAY holocaust happened.

    Talk about revisionist . . .

  12. Do they have NO shame?! To denigrate the suffering of those who died beside them …………..

  13. Im not gay, my brother is and it sickens me when I think of the way some extremists throughout history and in the present will dehumanize someone because they’re gay. Let me assure you, my brother also is an awesome guy who would give you his last dime. This story exposes and dark ugly reality festering in the shadows that the world cant ignore anymore. They must be held responsible for this revolting bigotry! you do not own the rights to the holocaust, my jewish friends..this isnt a product logo to be copyrighted..shame on you.,..shame!

  14. Manger Borne 1 Jun 2008, 7:58pm

    When did Jews arrive in the “13 Colonies,” and when, did they play any role in the Native “Indian” holocaust? Then to, if what the Jews experienced and for the number they lost, if their tribulation was a holocaust, what do you call what the Indians have endured: invasion, occupation, Ethnocide, removal, now reservations? The Indians should have memorials, worldwide. Along with the Palestinian Indians, I call them!

  15. someoldyid 1 Jun 2008, 8:24pm

    Let’s not forget that the “Ultra-Orthodox” in Israel issued death threats against Gays wanting to take part in a Gay Pride march in Israel.

    I am Jewish (and lost many family members in WWII). What is the difference between my family or Gays who died ? None – absolutely none. (Except that Gays have not demanded their own country and tormented the people who already lived there to get out).

    Holocaust survivors go hungry in Israel because the Government and its propaganda units like Yad Vashem pinch the money, in case any were not aware of it.

    Congratulations on this Memorial – it is sincere and deserves respect. That should not be too much to ask.

  16. I always get a kick from this never ending holyhoax bullshit. It`s the eternal scam.

  17. Oh well at least we aren’t using our our tragedy as justification far stealing someone else’s country, and terrorizing our neighbours.

  18. So, the only people who ever suffered in the camps of WW2 were Jews ? No Poles, no Russians, no gays and lesbians,no gypsies, no resistance fighters – only the Jews suffered ! Well, like someone said, there’s no business like Shoah business ! How can they seriously say that a gay person who was sent to a camp and died didn’t suffer as much as a Jewish death victim ? Jewish remembrance is so arrogant !

  19. Seth Putnam 2 Jun 2008, 6:53am

    Jews. They hate everyone. That’s why everyone throughout history has hated them. It isn’t Anti-Semitism, it’s the truth.

  20. This ‘scholar’ is a creep. The people should have the right to openly air our troubling doubts as to what really happened, anyway. That’s where it’s at. Maybe this guy is trying to deflect attention away from that, or he’s just someone with a fundamental lack of understanding of the human species.
    Caguas, Puerto Rico

  21. This is rich. And obscene given our doubts as to what happened really in 1940s Germany. This dishonest clown is sinking Israel’s reputation even further into the mud.
    San Juan Puerto Rico

  22. So every counrty has their religious idiots, and Israel is no exception. BUT- gays are NOT executed in Israel, nor do they face public persecution as in Egypt, Iraq and many Muslim countries. The president of Iran denies that they even have any homosexuals (because they probably “disappear” in the night). The Tel Aviv Pride celebration goes on every year, but not in Jerusalem. Still, it is wrong to deny that many suffered during the Nazi regime. As to Native Americans being like Palestinians; how simple-minded! The Native Americans’ true suffering was not created by their own. If all religions, including Judaism, following their true tenets, there would be no hatred.

  23. “Mine is bigger than yours.”

  24. Stephen Pickells 3 Jun 2008, 4:00am

    The following is a reply to an email I sent to Yad Vashem, asking them to verify the report, and tell me if these are the views of Yad Vashem, or only Mr Gutman?

    Yad Vashem is not against a memorial to the homosexuals who suffered during World War II. The quote that has been taken from an interview that Prof. Israel Gutman — a historian who works at Yad Vashem — granted to the Polish newspaper Rzeczpospolita, is partial, inaccurate and misleading. Following is Prof. Gutman’s position, as it appeared in Rzeczpospolita: “Please understand me. I have nothing against homosexuals. I believe a society must allow them to live in peace. Even more so, I do not object to memorials that commemorate their suffereing during the Second World War, and one should not doubt that. However, the location that was chosen to build this memorial is not at all successful. If visitors are left with the impression that there is no fundamental difference between the suffering of homosexuals and Jews, it is a scandal. One needs to keep things in their proper porpotion.” It should be noted as well, that in the Holocaust History Museum at Yad Vashem, there is mention of other groups who were persecuted by the Nazi regime, including the homosexuals. Information about the topic is available in the Yad Vashem Archives and Library.

    It should be noted that this is only their version. I tried to translate the original interview, but with no success. It can, however be accessed at http://www.rzeczpospolita.pl/jezyki/index.html

  25. Theoprovlitos 3 Jun 2008, 11:36am

    I didn’t know that Germany was SO liberal back in 1930-40’s that already 100.000 people were publicly and openly expressing their homosexuality so that they would finaly be arrested. Obviously this gay rights movement didn’t have much work to do in Germany since then, other than building a monument with two men kissing.

    I suppose one should be organized in a group according to his racial background and sexual preferences while still alive, because otherwise no matter if he was executed in the very same concentration camp, if he didn’t happen to be a Jew or a gay (just like my uncle) they are never going to make a monument about him.

    Obviously, discrimination and racism aplies most of all to the dead.

  26. Theoprovlitos 3 Jun 2008, 11:57am

    I din’t know that German soicety back in 1930-40’s was SO liberal that already 100.000 people would openly and publicly express their homosexuality which finaly lead them to concentration camps.

    I guess that the gay rights movement in Germany didn’t have much work to do since then, other that raising a monument with two men kissing.

    I suppose that nowadays one must be organized in a group according to his racial background or his sexual preferences, because if he doesn’t happen to be gay or a Jew (just like my uncle) they will NEVER make a monument for him, no matter if he died in the very same concentation camp with Jews and gays just like some thousands of his fellow citizens.

    I guess discrimination and racism applies better on the dead who have no mouth to speak.

  27. Weimar Germany, perhaps best depicted in the musical Cabaret, was on the forefront of sexual liberation. Unfortunately, the culture gap between cosmopolitan Berlin and the rural areas played a major role in the Hitler’s rise to power. Gay marriage, for instance, was openly debated and many gay couples felt comfortable stating they were married.
    When the great depression hit, the search for scapegoats was on. The brutal backlash of traditionalists and nationalists lead to the murder of thousands of innocent homosexuals in German concentration camps.
    We can’t forget this history, nor should we reduce the lessons to a handful of slogans. Distinctions and numbers also matter. I have no reason to doubt the accuracy of the Holocaust scholar’s observations about these distinctions.
    Yet his opposition to building another museum to victims seems misplaced, even odd. Shouldn’t we bring as much attention as possible to the false perceptions that lead to mass murder? Won’t this museum help Germany learn more about a repressed past and confront current prejudice?
    Perhaps we can even better find ways to reduce hate speech, prejudice, and intolerance against all groups. This museum, despite the scholars concerns about false equivalence, will serve that greater purpose. It might also prevent the rise of another bigoted dictator.

  28. @ DK “If all religions, including Judaism, following their true tenets, there would be no hatred”

    Judaism is built on hatred. God created Eve and invoked misogyny and homophobia by association from that moment on. Being atheist I do not believe a word of the unfortunate hateful verbiage spouted by Jews, Christians or Muslims. Though divergent Christians, in somewhat comical contradiction of the precepts expounded in the old testament, do try to accommodate the rich diversity of humanity, Jews and Muslims do no such thing; their religions are filled with vile hatred which, like those brutal clashes perpetrated within Christian sects, resulted in their own personal catastrophes: Each a product of the profoundly embedded loathing of anything contrary to the others demonstrably unprovable belief system.

    Not everyone believes in a god (be it any god). Those who are non-believers should not be subject to the sickening dogma associated with each peculiarly perverse theist belief system. To impose any theist doctrine is a breach of fundamental human rights…

    For you to even suggest following a tenet which deviates from humanitarian atheism is suggestive that you are capable of harbouring and exploiting hate and renders you a culpable party to any or all of humankind’s past, present and future indoctrinated loathing and persecution of itself.

    The Second World War consumed over fifty million lives no one has the right to a assume one person’s suffering is greater or less than another’s.

    Israel Gutman should be tarred and feathered with the same brush he and his would use on the likes of David Irving. Both share the same source of hatred…the Tanakh.

    1. Ok, I know this thread is three years dead, but I can’t let you get away with what you said Neal.

      As far as I can see, Atheism is just as bad, if not worse than organised religion because all you are doing is judging – just like them – but you are a freelancer. Obviously uneducated in the ways of Christianity, you mention the old testament. Any true Christian will tell you that the old testament no longer applies, and any Christian worth their salt will tell you that the bible is not to be taken literally, but to be read only with “love” in mind. You should never look to find hatred in that book, but interpret with love. You will never go wrong in those instances. Jesus Christ said believe in me and my words and actions. Thats all that is asked of true Christians. Those that wear the Christian badge whilst declaring hate are *NOT* Christians.

      As for this article, its narrow minded at best, insulting at worst, and not worthy of more comment.

  29. What Deborah Lipstad said about this?

  30. michael mazur 5 Jul 2008, 5:31am

    ~If visitors are left with the impression that there is no fundamental difference between the suffering of homosexuals and Jews, it is a scandal. One needs to keep things in their proper proportion~ Israel Gutman.

    Some 200-300 gentile women were taken from Ravensbruck who had not been prostitutes but were there because of some petty offence, like stealing food, and forced to work as prostitutes/sex slaves in 10 brothels located in selected concentration camps located in Germany, Austria and Poland.

    Don’t go away, this is on topic. Since jews were being gassed en mass (so we are told), then why didn’t these evil, evil nazis select out the prettier ones from amongst the jewish women and use them instead ? And in a few months gas them, and get another batch in of pretty jewish women, and so on until the end.

    The fact that they didn’t, proves that there were no gassings at all.

    So, clearly the Germans were more respectful of jewish women than they were of their own, and so when Prof Gutman insists that there was a fundamental difference b/n the suffering of jews and homosexuals he is only affirming the ever more tenuous official line that jewish suffering is somehow uniquely blessed with – a dose of Zyklon B ™, and as there were no gassings, as i’ve just shown, there was nothing unique about jewish suffering.

    As it is claimed that gassing was the principle murder weapon of jews, then the impervious to contrary evidence 6,000,000 number, must one day collapse in a heap of concrete monument dust.

  31. > “If visitors have the impression that there was not a great difference between the suffering of Jews and those of homosexuals, it’s a scandal.”

    What a load of crap. If this Holocaust expert was well-versed in his history (an attitude that he displays throughout his post as being some exclusive source of knowledge on the genocide), he would know that even after the war ended, the persecution of homosexuals continued for decades.

  32. Bishop Ioan 30 Jun 2009, 5:46am

    The difference between Jewish suffering and LGBT suffering is that once the camps were liberated, LGBT people’s persecution continued. Nice to know that Jewish suffering was worse than that of any other group interned with them. Murder is murder is murder. I have never thought that the official figures for the Shoah was accurate and that they were likely inflated. However, I felt that if even one Jew was killed, it was murder and therefore wrong. Now I see that the Jews don’t want to give LGBT people even acknowledgement that they suffered and died under the Nazis as well.

    As has been noted above, LGBT people have not used their sufferings over the centuries to get a country that was not theirs. Few if any people seem to care about the Palestinian people who have lived there for millenia, but had their land stolen out from under them and sent to the least desirable areas to live–and when they dare to fight back, they are massacred.

    I don’t care who likes what I’m about to say: the Jews have as much blood on their hands as the Nazis did. I expected better from those who supposedly suffered so horribly. Guess you’re only a vicitm if you’re Jewish.

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