Well, by that logic may I be the first to propose that we introduce gay Law into the UK. It’s an idea whose time has come.Now, what are we going to have in it?
A lot of people are going to misunderstand this venerable gentleman’s viewpoint. As I understand it the introduction of Sharia law in the UK will be part of an exchange programme whereby we make cultural exchanges. For example – we give multicultural UK-style tolerance welcome and they stop executing queens. Surely?
Two simple questionsIs Sharia law compatible with the European Convention on Human Rights?Is Sharia law compatible with the United Nations Agreements on Human Rights – specifically:# Universal Declaration of Human Rights# Covenant on Civil and Political Rights# Optional Protocol to the Covenant on Civil and Political Rights# Covenant on Economic, Social, and Cultural Rights# Convention Against Torture# Convention Against Genocide# The Geneva Conventions# Convention on the Rights of the Child# Convention on Elimination of Discrimination Against WomenUntil this is the case, Sharia law has no place in the legislature of any civilised nation, let alone a Western one.
PS – those laws are summarised at
Is Rowan Williams sane or what? Christian and nonchristian denominations all have one thing in common, i.e. the denigration and villification of Gay people everywhere and in some cases, execution. For Williams to assume that there may be need for accommodation for other areas of sharia law in the UK is insane. This man needs to be removed. I’m all for getting rid of state religion altogether, its dangerous and irrelevant in the 21st century. His church and other denominations should keep their superstitions and belief systems in their homes, not inflict them on society and the political process without our consent. Enough!
If this idiot got his was then how long would it be before Muslims demanded the following:All women, of any religion or none, covered up in public?All Gay clubs and venues closed?The call to prayer blasted out in our towns and cities five time a day (as is about to happen in Oxford)?The repeal of laws protecting Gays and other minorities?The supression of free speech (something already happening in Europe where people are too scared to voice any anti Islamic comments in print)?The list would be endless. We need only look at even the most moderate Islamic countries like Turkey to see how life would have to change to suit Islam.No, we do not need Sharia Law because we have British Law here which has served us well for a 1,000 years. If anyone wants to live under Sharia then the door is wide open and the way out of the UK not barred!In the meantime may I suggest Williams worries about his own church – example the Gay Clergy issue – before worrying about Islam and how he might best placate a religion that will never be satisfied!
Jesus, this Archbishop is off his trolley! He’s got to be. And I’m getting frightened. Maybe it’s time to die! Better that than surrender our culture, our nation to any of the rules of a religion like Islam.I lived and worked amongst Muslims in Middle Eastern countries for six years. It ain’t nice. It “kills” you. It represses free creativity, free expression. In case anybody has any doubt about Islam, then just ask why it is that Middle Eastern Muslim men with means make a beeline for the fleshpots of Bahrain and Thailand at every possible opportunity. Oh, how they love the booze and the ladyboys of Bahrain and Thailand . . . and even London!MI5, are you listening? It’s time to take a look at Rowan Williams. Maybe time for a little bright light flashing in some dark underground tunnel one evening? (There are a couple of good pedestrian underpasses in Canterbury!)
JOanna, totally agree with you on that. No islamic state would ever meet those requirements, therefore, introducing some aspects of sharia law is definitely not acceptable. Williams should be taken to task on this one and butt out of politics altogether. Disestablish the church altogether, that’ll stop them once their funding is removed, namely our collective pink tax pounds included.
He’s off his rocker. If anyone tried to impose that twisted law on us, there would be a Civil War.
Robert Expat and others, I think we really need to kick up one HELL of a ruckus over this matter. Religious fools in ivory towers (or in pretty little all-white English towns like Canterbury) really need to very strongly and forcefully STOPPED with regard to this pro-Islam nonsense. We’ve got to stop appeasing these people. They’ll never stop their demands. First we graciously allowed them in, then we graciously permitted the building of a massive mosque at Regent’s Park, and now just recently there have been applications round the country to impose Islamic brainwash on us five times a day by way of loudspeakers mounted on local mosques. It’s time to acknowledge what Islam really is: it IS an all-encompassing religion. And therefore Muslims will never be satisfied until they have re-created complete Muslim surroundings here in Britain. And Brits, as ever, will bend over backwards in charity and consideration . . . until it’s too late.
I didn’t intend to return to this site, but this idiot’s pronunciations force me to!FIrstly gre’s too spineless to stand up for LGBT rights against the dark age bigots in this country and others. NOw he proposes introducing islamic law into our system.We live in an increasingly secular society, with secular law that protects everyone equally.If we had laws that discriminated against religionists he’d be screaming “persecution”; he’s content to mix religion into the law that will diadvantage some.His reasoning that some muslims have a greater loyalty to their culture than to our state and law is flawed. If we’re allowed to take that line, then LGBT culture requires greater recognition.
Roberto, here, here!! Williams is mad. We should be calling for the disestablishment of state religion, we don’t need it, it is irrelevant and not compatible in a modern western society. Let them go find real jobs and earn a real living instead of sponging off the rest of us, our pink tax pounds for starters.
Dai, love what you said, funny but serious, very serious! Keep it up!
Jim, just let them try. We should all be pushing for the removal of Williams and state religion too. This man is totally out of touch with reality. Get rid of them all I say, make them work for a living, close their churches and build more schools improve the health and education system instead, money well spent. I don’t want one penny of my hard earned tax pounds contributing to professional state spongers and hate mongers such as Williams et al.
Well I get back from work, and am gobsmacked by what this spineless cretin has said.Id make a better Archbishop than him and I’m not religious!I bet he’s grovel on the ground and kiss the feet of any mad imam just to show how touchy-feely, inclusive and tolerant he is.How many more “inter-faith dialogue” groups does he want to set up? There don’t seem to be too many of those where islam rules the roost in Islamic countries.They should take away his mitre and give him a massive white flag to wave at Islam.
Dai, it is actually true that they are intent on establishing a foothold in Europe, primarily in London and the UK in general. About time the public rose up and say enough is enough! They don’t like western democracy and it amazes me why they come to the west in the first place, they don’t believe in civil rights, they don’t believe in equality and they don’t like anyone who isn’t one of them. Nobody could ever convince me that theirs is a religion of peace and one that believes in democracy. It doesn’t and never has, never will, and I’m sick and tired of politicians and others apologising for them and saying how great Islam is, it isn’t, its nothing but evil! Its goal is the islamisation of the west, perish the thought. Time to take action. Williams is a moron and a dangerous one at that.
GOod point, apYrs, well taken!Good to see you again, don’t stay away and dont’ be deterred by others who visit here, I just ignore them and don’t respond to anything they have to say. Ignoring them hurts more.
The answer to this question lies in the statement: “There is a huge difference between respecting people’s right to follow their own beliefs and allowing them to excuse themselves from the rule of law.”There is no way that Shania law could be compatibly introduced within British law, as it goes against all principles of Parliamentary, EU and the Human Convention of Rights.Sharia law has strict guidelines for punishment for crimes and the biggest obstacle being that of Adultery and of course Homosexuality.We are meant to be progressing and making society more tolerant and acceptable, not the opposite.Being a Muslim myself, I know the regular arguments that I have regarding my own sexuality and this proposal is ludicrous, and totally unworkable and acceptable.Again, Religion is showing its ugly head and trying to influence a government elected by the people, and it can only be put as political correctness gone mad.One only has to look at countries that are governed by Sharia law to see the consequences, and the minorities that suffer the most are Homosexuals.
Luke, well said! Spineless cretin that he is and that’s kind, I can think of better ones but will refrain from resorting to that kind of language though I think in his case, it is appropriate.Good for Gordon Brown’s spokesman for saying no to that nonsense! We need to get rid of state religion, these people are far too meddlesome for my comfort and dangerous. Williams better watch out! Maybe its time to boot him out, the man is out of control and clearly not dealing with a full deck.
The Mayor of Morontown has spoken again. Are there any who have ears to hear?
Williams appears to have lost touch with reality on this one and has been swiftly criticised by all three main political parties.Perhaps what the Archbishop has done, is make the possibility of the disestablishment of the CofE as the ‘state church’ much more likely..
Jack of London, I’d be in heaven if that were to happen. Why do we need it anyway, its a useless institution and serves absolutely NO purpose.
That man…seriously…in the past he’s been bland, weak and personalityless. Now he’s developed a personality and it’s completely insane, maybe he’s just trying to get airspace or a union of all Abrahamic religions to add some people to his dying congregations.
I’ve just decided he’s done it so he can later ask for Church of England exemptions from laws, a sort of door-in-the-face technique: “how about Sharia Law” response: “Erm no” then he’ll say “well lets compromise how about just exemptions from certain laws for religions” response: “erm no” then he’ll say “well how about just the church of England being exempt from this, this and this”Response: “hmmmm oh ok”
If the dear Dr Williams had any morals or honour, or if he was merely a decent Christian, he would and should resign forthwith. I hope people will encourage him to do just that.
Dr. Williams needs to be reincarnaed into a homosexul living in a Muslim country. Then he’ll get a dose of reality that he is currently unable to comprehend.
Sharia law only applies to Muslims, as it is not possible to stop being a Muslim and you are automatically a Muslims if you have a Muslims father it would have to be optional to be compatible with uk eu laws ie exactly what they have now, only difference would be state funding but and home office control, presumably Rowan Williams thinks this would be to the COE advantage?Ideally I think state and religion should be legally separated but don’t take Mr Williams for a fool because he is not.
Bill, I second that. Further, let some of the Gay apologists for islamic fundamentalists and the church spend time in a muslim country and see how it feels and find out why many want to get asylum in the UK and elsewhere. Maybe some of the politicians should spend time there undercover to find out how bad it is for gay people who also face even more humiliation when they try to enter the UK and prove their sexual orientation as well as persecution. I don’t think any straight in the same situation would be subjected to the same degradation.
Let’s not get too excited over what Williams has said (look closely: he doesn’t seem to have said much at all, in classic ‘Anglicanese’ style. ‘Constructive accommodation with Shariah law’ could mean anything and elsewhere he as much as says that it should never override domestic and international law). What should concern us is that the Primate of the Established Church should embolden Islamist nutters by even hinting at such lunacy. Still, at least he has enraged his own Church’s nutters by doing so. With luck this will advance further the Church of England’s hideously protracted disintegration.
Thanks for the encouragement, Robert Expat! Much appreciated. I get really riled about this business. All those years living and working among Muslims in different Arab cities . . . what an experience. There are, happily, no people in this thread supporting what Williams said, but nevertheless sharing my experience in brief may be of interest.I fell in love with Islam and Arab culture when I first went out to the Middle East. It’s totally exotic, totally different in every respect. It sends you into a drug-like haze just being in that very different other world. And, of course, if you’re gay, you notice how out in the street you are surrounded by men, men, men! Oh, and a few women completely blacked up, or, in some countries like Egypt, not blacked up but on a very strong leash! And the men are used to associating most of the time with other men, so there’s great camaraderie and brotherliness . . . and it’s utterly charming. And you get sucked in. You sort of fall in love. You bed one or two of the naughty ones and discover that although they’ve just done it with you they think you are utter TRASH! Complete Western trash. That’s when you start to wake up. Then there are the straight guys you make friends with and for a long while you think it’s amazing that you are enjoying such a close non-sexual relationship with a straight guy . . . and then you discover what he really thinks about you because you don’t believe in Allah and Islam, because you don’t throw your face on the ground five times a day and face Mecca. You discover that they are utterly brainwashed. They believe they are absolutely superior, that we with our alcohol and liberal attitudes are infidels. Ultimately you realise they really have no respect for you. They’ll say they have, but deep down they think you’re inferior, wanting. And so you begin to feel humiliated. And all the time, of course, you have been putting up with not being able to do so many of the things you can do in the West – particularly indulging in free thought, free expression, free creativity. The poor bastards aren’t even allowed to draw or paint a human form – just endless geometrical patterns. All of their arts likewise SUCK! As a few daring wayward Turks used to say to me while I was in the more Islamic centres of the Middle East, “All you can do in these places is work, eat, sleep, and fuck your wife”! And that truly just about sums it up.
Dai, Thanks for sharing your thoughts and experiences.
How Williams has the audacity to lecture the nation on how it can better effect cohesion when he cannot even properly handle splits,divisions and schism within his own organisation is beyond me.So while our men and women putting their lives on the line fighting the Taliban in Afghanistan Williams is Hell bent on opening the back door to Sharia, one of the most disgusting and repellant systems on Earth. Just how was that meant to go down?By opening the Pandora’s box just a crack he has given succour to every extremist in the land and paved the way to a very long wedge. By even contemplating Sharia on a public platform Williams is guilty of almost criminal negligence.Does he honestly believe that Sharia in this country won’t try and emulate practice in Saudi Arabia? He must be mad, anyone watching Newsnight would have been horrifed by opinions of the Muslim cleric they interviewed (and he seemed moderate). Lambeth claims that the speech was well considered and researched, bah! No reference at all to the failed Canadian experiment, the only example where Sharia has been introduced to a western democracy.Well the nation has spoken and Wiiliams would do well to heed that voice. Rather than try and blame the media (which is ridiculous as the clamour began minutes after his interview with a BBC radio journalist) and he should just admit that he got it wrong. And blaming us all for not understanding what he was talking about merely exemplifies the need for plain English in his speeches.Weak and vacillating or just downright dangerous? Either way Williams is done for.
World of Twist, I’m thrilled that public opionion is turning against Williams’ hideous statements. Its time for him to go, the man is totally out of touch with reality. He needs to find a real career, earn a living and pay his far share of taxes like the rest of us, the moron. He’s not better than Akinola in Nigeria. Time to disestablish the C of E altogether, its irrelevant in modern 21st century Britain and incompatible with every day life. We’d be far better off without it and their sponging off the system. He’s another parasite like the rest of his ilk.
It’s all about experience, isn’t it: whether these guys have been exposed to the REALITIES of Islam or not. Williams will have met a good number of Islamic clerics in his time but that’s it – soon as the handshaking is done he’s back to his gorgeous palaces, Lambeth Palace or the splendid house beside Canterbury Cathedral. Remember Prince Charles declaring in the early 90s that he wished to see by the end of the century (that’s the end of last century, i.e. the year 2000) a mosque in every British town? Another chinless twat completely isolated from the realities of life, living in the most disgusting luxury in a string of royal palaces. I bet after the Twin Towers and the London bombings he had second thoughts, but too late, the damage was done, the encouragement had been given! This fool, Williams, has also done great damage this past week. Great to hear a fellow-member of his Synod saying this morning on Radio 4 that she believes he should resign.I would also like to say that I believe that this Sharia nonsense of his is a very roundabout way of his dealing with his homosexual problems in the Church of England, a very circuitous way of trying to avoid schism. What he’s really angling for is for religious beliefs of all and any kind to be above the law, in other words, I suppose, diminishing the power of our secular state.
Hi RobertXP,Who could believe the massive outcry this has provoked? I don’t think there was a single site on the net that contained a forum that didn’t go into melt down over this. Even Fitlads had a voice.I found this excellent post on the Guardian-”statelineComment No. 1117122February 9 17:05GBR”The Gay Police Association said it was aware of colleagues refusing to serve with gay officers and quoting sections of the Bible at them on parade grounds.”Public sector institutions claim that their policies permitting staff expression of religous and cultural beliefs have inbuilt protection against sexist discrimination because their employees are expected to show “respect”.This is farcical.”Respect” by whose definition?The staff member is entitled to expression of their cultural and religous beleifs.The female is entitled to “respect”.So if a man decides that his religion and culture affords women respect by precluding him from touching them, and he refuses her a handshake, she is left with no redress, because theoretically, she has been shown “respect”.A female acquaintance of mine who works for a London council complained to her HR dept that a fellow staff member refused to shake her hand because she is female. She was given a long lecture on “diversity” and organisational culture which amounted to her being told that by treating her differently to her male peers, he was being respectful (and, she says, it was implied she should be grateful for it and see the “positive side” in that he would be unlikely to oogle her!).This isn’t a hypothetical discussion about what might happen.Enshrining an individual’s right to behave in their occuption according to something as nebulous as their “religous beliefs” in a misguided attempt to prevent discrimination, simply ushers in a legitimisation of prejudice.Sainsburys allow their staff to refuse to handle alcohol if it impinges their “beliefs”. What if a member of staff considers touching a box of tampons taboo? Are women to be sent to another counter?Women cannot rely on their pharmacist to supply them with emergency contraception – pharmacists have an opt out on, yup, “religous” grounds.Much of the focus on these issues seems to be on muslim belief.I’m glad that Williams has provoked discussion of the far widespread and dangerous christian efforts to erode the postenlightenment secularism which was flourishing in Britain but it now attacked regularly by christian groups, using muslim “needs” as a cover for their own agenda.It suits some christians to advocate greater acceptance of sharia, the introduction of sexual segregation in public spaces (ie municipal swimming pools) and the legitimisation of discriminatory behaviour in public sector organisational culture. After all, those queers will everywhere if they don’t, eh? “Truer words were never spoken. When will society wake up to the sheer madness and mendacity of Deists?
I wonder what the Arch Dhimmi, Williams, has to say about Iran’s decision to kill those two Gay lads by throwing them off a cliff – using Sharia Law?What will he say and do I wonder?His dithering and backstepping on the whole Gay issue in the church fuels those evil bigots in the USA and Africa. His backing for Sharia will likewise please the bigots in Islam.Instead this silly man should once and for all side with right and support Gays – only then may he be taken seriously again.I do though think he’s too intellectual and weak willed to actually make any decision for which he’ll be remembered, other than (of course) his stupid comments supporting barbaric Sharia Law!
Executing people by throwing them off a cliff??????????Would Ken Livingstone like to comment? After all, his chum Yusuf al-Qaradawi advocates killing us, presumably by the same method.If anyone advocated killing Jews, their feet wouldn’t touch the floor on the way to the courtroom (quite rightly).But gays? well, it’s a cultural difference. A philosophical one even. Even the Nazis tried to hide their murders by committing them in out of the way death camps. Islam wants to turn our murders into a spectator sport!And where are the outcries from the moderate muslim groups? The ones whose whineing voices are heard at their suffering when a teddy bear is misnamed or some cartoons are drawn of their prophet in Denmark. Oh the pain!Prince Charles, the Grauniad, the Independent are quick to condemn any perceived slight against Islam, but go quiet when gays are murdered using the same ideology.Oh, those Left wing papers will sneer at any Tory who objects to gay marriage, but say nothing at the mad clerics who want us dead. Best brush it under the carpet eh editor? Don’t want to mess up our PC credentails.Well there’s nothing f*****g PC about murdering gays you santimonious twats.There doesn’t seem to be one muslim group that will say “Let’s ditch the violence from the koran, we don’t need to kill gays, this is the 21st century”. But they seem to be so quick off the mark with threats and intimidation when anyone objects to the barbarity of islam.And the connivance and the hypocrisy of the far Left is sickening. I’ve seen labour MPs openly mock the homphobia in the Bible but go quiet with the Koran. Are they hypocrites or cowards?People seem concerned about the difference between gay civil union and marriage. It will be completely irrelevent if Europe turns into Eurabia. And with the demographics it will happen. Look at Holland, Denmark and Belgium. They could all fall to islam and the mad clerics know it. It’s just a numbers game. Gay rights will be the first laws to be repealed. They’re non existent in every islamic country so don’t think it won’t happen in Europe.They should put the pictures of gays being murdered in the name of Sharia on TV. Religion of Peace my Ass.
Everyone please read Yasmin Alibhai-Brown’s view of this in today’s (10 feb)Independent, also online. Brilliant and definitive. Intelligent and open-minded Muslims know how poisonous Shariah is. It isn’t even very Muslim.
Dai, I totally concur with your views.
Roberto, Williams will say absolutely nothing about the two young men in Iran. His and his followers’ silence will give consent, make no mistake about that. He’s a despicable piece of work and should be booted out. Better yet, we should have a movement to push for the abolition of state religion. Its like a cancer, slowly eating away at its victims. Sharia law is a pernicious tumour spreading its evil tentacles to other parts of the collective religious body everywhere. Time to excise it and put it out of its misery.
Luke, here, here!! Both far left, centrist and far right are equally guilty of connivance. Remember the British teacher who was jailed over that ridiculous teddy bear incident?I doubt if they’d do the same had she been jailed or tortured for being a perceived lesbian. Look what happened, the government and others went to bat for her release and won. Yes, where are the socalled moderate muslims in the UK when we need them? Only goes to show they support torture and execution of our fellow LGB people. Nobody will ever convince me that Islam is a peaceful religion, it claims it respects all human life and condemns killing…………bollocks to that and bollocks to them too!!
Steve Hope: “Intelligent and open-minded Muslims know how poisonous Shariah is.”I dare say that may be true, but open-minded muslims are few and far between and are not the majority or ever will be. I haven’t had the good fortune of meeting one yet and in any event, why aren’t they making headlines condemning these abominable crimes against humanity, especially in the UK?
World of Twist, yes, that was an interesting article indeed. I think many deists are aware that their belief systems are becoming more transparent and are in fact on the decline, hence the backlash. For example, take that evil cult leader, the Pope. His church in Spain will NEVER succeed in turning back the clock. They can protest all they want, its not going to happen. The world is moving on without them. They are becoming more irrelevant with every passing day, but not soon enough. As long as we are ever vigilant and bash back, they will never succeed. They are losing the cultural war and the winds of change are blowing in our favour, its inevitable, as hard as it seems at times.
Hi RobertXPWhere Williams has got it spectacularly wrong is that he expects The muslim community to dilute Sharia for the British palate.He really thinks that British Sharia would be a quite different animal from it’s counterparts in Saudi and Pakistan. Not according to many Muslims making their voices heard on the matter. To them the word of Allah is absolute and cannot be changed. Therefore the very things Williams predicts will not be on the cards…are in fact one the cards.From what I can gather from reading discussions on the net, Muslim bloggers seem to fall into two categories, those who are against Sharia in any form and those that are for it …in all it’s glory, undiluted, unchanging, and unnaccountable.This is what Wiiliams wants for this country, Religion unbound and unfettered .
Luke, just a quick note to recommend you visit the Talk threads at The Guardian. You may not already be aware of them. What they reveal is a massive number of posters who are the anthithesis of your perception of The Guardian. Sometimes, in fact, I find the discussion TOO anarchic, TOO without balanced thought and restraint. However, if you have a good look at some of the threads there in which people like us are interested, I think you will be very pleasantly surprised . . . and we may even notice that you are posting there with more gusto than you are here!
having read a bit more of what old beardy said, I think something he wants is for the muslim community to have something equivalent to “Beth Din” the jewish civil system recognised by the English system, as well as the ability for islamic clerics to marry people and register them.Of course he doesn’t seek the same right for humanists, nor the right of lesbians and gays to CP in chusrch (if they would wish to)hypocrite!
Hi World of Twist, he has indeed got it spectacularly wrong! He needs to go. His comments are sounding more like Akinola’s in a lot of ways. The man clearly has no backbone, will sell out to whatever is politically expedient and we will always be the sacrifice on the altar of bigotry and hypocrisy, he has seen to that. To digress, for some reason, whenever I try to respond to comments by clicking on an specific post, it doesn’t seem to open up for me in the usual manner. I now have to paste “haloscan” url into my browser to open it. Any ideas why that is suddenly happening? I’ve tried adjusting pop-up blocker and nothing seems to be worked. I thought for a minute there were technical difficulties with the website.
Hi Guys,I’m having trouble getting into HaloScan to post messages via the usual method, i.e. clicking on Readers Comments. When I do, nothing happens. Anybody else having that problem or had that problem?Have had to recourse to a rather roundabout method to get here.Dai.
Readers have reported problems with this thread so I have started another one which can be accessed through the story “Archbishop unerpentant over Sharia comments”
Dear Editor, the comments section still cannot be accessed via haloscan. I have to copy the URL and paste to my browser in order to get to the comments responses. Something is definitely wrong with the website. I’ve tried everything, adjusted popup blockers to no avail, adjusted firewall settings, still no resolution.