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God Hates Fags fanatics may picket Ledger funeral

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  1. OMAR KUDDUS 23 Jan 2008, 4:05pm

    And this is Vatican History:Clement VII had sex with page boys.Benedict IX was into bestiality and bi-sexual orgies.Boniface VII was described as a “monster” and a criminal…Benedict XII was a notorious drunkard.The reign of Innocent VIII was called “The Golden Age of Bastards”.Leo I was a sadist and torturer.Julius III sodomized young boys.Clement VI frequented prostitutes.Anacletus was into raping nuns.Paul II enjoyed watching naked men being racked and tortured.Then of course there is the child sex abuse scandal in current times.Meanwhile…- “Gay marrage `is eeeeevil!”- “People in glass house…Shouldn’t throw stones.”- “God hates the sordid tacky….He hates all persons having anything whatsoever to do with it.”

  2. World of Twist 23 Jan 2008, 5:42pm

    Words almost fail me here. What totally vile “human beings” Phelps and his people are.Not a second thought is given to the families of the deceased at their demonstrations, not a single thought. Never mind respect for the dead.Phelps is psychotic, he has to be.To ignore the pain of those suffering a lost one in order to further their hate driven agenda is beyond evil.

  3. Phelps is ridiculous. He’s picketted the funerals of dead USA soldiers before. That’s going to go down well in the USA. Hopefully, he’ll be bankrupted by the recent action against him.Oh and Omar, I’m not sure which newslink that reply is aimed at, but it’s so over the top it could have come from Bill.

  4. Robert, ex-pat Brit 23 Jan 2008, 7:26pm

    Hi World of Twist! Fred Phelps has said he and his fellow bigots will picket Heath Ledger’s funeral all because he accepted a role as a gay cowboy in Brokeback Mountain. When is this madness and hatred going to stop? He blames the Iraq war on America’s tolerance of gay people, can you imagine?

  5. World of Twist 23 Jan 2008, 7:40pm

    Hiya Rob XP,Did you see that Louis Theroux documentary on Phelps and his church? What a sour. mean spirited, hate consumed little man he is. And the indoctrination of those tiny little children by him and his Elders was nauseating.I’m not sure what will stop him/them from their morally bankrupt and repugnant behaviour,they have proven to be quite immune to the ire of their fellow Americans, even faith based people shun them.The cult is so personality based (around him) I suspect the only thing that will eventually stop them is the old bastard dying.

  6. OMAR KUDDUS 23 Jan 2008, 8:22pm

    Luke I assure you it was not from Bill, but aimed at The Westboro Baptist Church, who have No respect, for the likes of us, the dead or bereaved .Phelp’s is an evil man, perching hatred and forgets that homosexuality exists in all walks of life and institutions.My reactions may be over the top, but if you have seen the vile group in action, vomiting pure hate and contempt out, you may forgive that in this instance, I was, if anything reserved.In all my years I have never seen such pure hatred and evil that comes from this despicable group.

  7. Robert, ex-pat Brit 23 Jan 2008, 8:48pm

    Hi World of Twist! Yes, I did happen to see the Theroux documentary. Phelps is evil incarnate but what I find odd is that not one of the major christian leaders or denominations take him to task. They’re all a bunch of cowards! Amazing how all of this right wing religious bigotry finds a haven in the conservative republican party. They have them in abundance let alone a monopoly on both hypocrisy and bigotry. Evil is too good a word to describe Phelps and his ilk anywhere on this planet.

  8. Robert, ex-pat Brit 23 Jan 2008, 8:52pm

    Omar, there are more like Phelps in the U.S. Pat Robertson, Lon Mabon, Don Wildmon, Phyllis Schafly of the Eagle Forum among many others, all religious bigots and all conservatives. Their party is a breeding ground for oppression, bigotry, intolerance, hatred and hypocrisy. Its sad to think let alone disturbing that their party has over one million gay voters. Its beyond self-loathing.

  9. Bill Perdue 23 Jan 2008, 9:41pm

    Christian apologists are just going to have to get used to the idea that most of us think that christians are, almost without exception, the declared enemies of GLBT folk. Among them the roman cult is our chief enemy. Their only defenders are superstitious types and reactionaries. For those interested (and if it’s available) ‘Small Town Gay Bar’ is a film with an interview with Phelps that also describes GLBT life in the American South. Two things struck me about the movie. First, the interview with Phelps shows a madman in action, someone consumed by compulsive bigotry. He’s as repulsive and bigoted as Ratzinger the Pope or Peter Akinola. Secondly ‘Small Town Gay Bar’ portrays the determination and dignity of ordinary GLBT men and women who face down bigots, discrimination and occasional violence with quiet bravery. It’s one of the best of the dozens of documentary films on GLBT life in the US.

  10. OMAR KUDDUS 23 Jan 2008, 9:45pm

    Robert, Mercifully I have only had to encounter Phelps band of hate mongers and for once I was lost for words. My grief soon turned to anger.The funeral was upsetting enough without the hypocrisy and bigotry, of this evil group, and you are right in saying, “Evil is too good a word to describe Phelps and his ilk anywhere on this planet”.I find it upsetting that in a democratic country, with freedoms enshrined by congress, they are still allowed to breed their oppression, bigotry, intolerance, hatred and hypocrisy, let alone have any self respecting gay man be their member.The Church was recently taken to court by the father of Lance Cpl Matthew Snyder, a marine who died serving in Iraq in March 2006, after members cheered a soldier’s death as “punishment” for US tolerance of homosexuality. The church cited its constitutional right to free speech in its defence. But lawyer urged the jury to ensure the damages were high enough to stop the church campaigning and has been told to pay $10.9m (£5.2m) in damages. The jury ordered the church and three of its leaders to pay $2.9m in compensatory damages, and an additional $8m for invasion of privacy and for causing emotional distress. Their defence attorney argument that the $2.9m in compensatory damages already far exceeded the defendants’ net worth and would be enough to “bankrupt them and financially destroy them” was ignored. “I hope it’s enough to deter them from doing this to other families. It was not about the money. It was about getting them to stop,” he said, according to Reuters news agency.Perhaps next time they are sued they can be finally put down for good.

  11. Bill Perdue 24 Jan 2008, 4:04am

    For those with a strong stomach the Southern Poverty Law Center (SPLC), which grew out of the US civil rights struggles of the last century, has an online report on the background of the bigot Phelps and his compulsive hatreds. SPLC broke the back of the KKK in the 1980’s and 1990’s with a string of successful lawsuits aimed at the organization and its leaders, winning judgments that bankrupted the KKK. The judgements were used to compensate victims of the KKK. The KKK ceased to exist as a major political force. The lawsuit against Phelps is in that tradition but in the US we have to expand our legal assault. Whenever we can show a link between cult bigots and discrimination, harassment or violence we should sue and simultaneously fight to get their tax exempt status revoked. Christian totalitarians here are very aware of the potential of these lawsuits and always launch a diversionary offensive when someone gets killed, claiming that GLBT groups are persecuting Christians. The Nazi’s used to make the same claims about being persecuted by an “International Jewish Conspiracy’ after murdering innocent people in incidents like Cristalnacht.

  12. Gary Philpott 24 Jan 2008, 9:21am

    ‘christians are, without exception, the declared enemy’Is this guy Bill Perdue for real? Is he actually on the side of gay rights or is he an infiltrator on this site?So much for tolerance. We gays demand tolerance so much, and then we have this blatant display of generalisation and intolerance??? I believe the propaganda ministry of Germany in 1941 issued a statement quite like this called ‘Jews Are Guilty’.If Bill Perdue is supposed to be one of us, I’m not with him. I have no love of what the christian churches say about us, but I will not bring myself to their level, or support this man in his hate for others.

  13. Gary, have to agree there mate. There’s way too many hateful and intolerant remarks on this site. Some people like that Billy bloke you mention seem to think we’ll get our rights by discriminating against everyone else and ranting like a nut.Please tell me that Billy git isn’t British!

  14. Robert, ex-pat Brit 24 Jan 2008, 1:31pm

    Omar, hate speech will never be outlawed as long as there is a conservative government in Washington, DC. Freedom of speech is one thing and I totally support that, but when it comes to inciting people to bash and kill LGBT people based on religious beliefs, then that becomes a very different issue. Inciting people to commit crimes because of their perceived or established sexual orientation should be an punishable offence. Likewise, if LGBT people incited hatred and killing of people of the “straight” orientation, we’d see swift government action.

  15. Robert, ex-pat Brit 24 Jan 2008, 1:45pm

    Bill, thank you for the SPLC information.I am in agreement on the revocation of tax-exempt status for right wing christian bigot cults, sects and denominations, ditto for any religious organisation bent on discrimination and crimes committed against us based on religious beliefs. The right wing of course doesn’t support hate crimes legislation saying that there are already laws in place to deal with it. Singling out a particular group as a target for discrimination and/or violent crimes against them cries out for additional legislation and protection. We saw what happened in Nazi Germany while the world turned its head the other way. Among the 6 million brave Jews who perished in the death camps, an estimated 50,000 or more Gay people also suffered the same fate as an undesirable group. These religious bigots today would do the same thing if they had the support, Phelps et al notwithstanding. Arch conservative bigot Huckabee’s past comments that HIV/AIDS sufferers should have been quarantined from the rest of society is another indication of the deeply seated hatred of our people. We have to be vigilant, less complacent (a dig at those of us who because we’ve gained many of our rights, don’t give a damn because it doesn’t affect us directly) and confront them head on. Thank goodness for people such as Peter Tatchell and the many others across the world who aren’t afraid to speak up and defend us. Would that our politicians were as courageous!

  16. Robert, ex-pat Brit 24 Jan 2008, 1:54pm

    Ger and Gary, lets not forget that religion has been at the root of discrimination and in most societies, our own included. Why do you think there is so much opposition and veiled homophobic rantings of intolerance uttered by Rowan Williams, the Cardinal of Westminster the Pope and others? I dare say there are christians and others who do not support their views, but overall, the majority of them do (those who worship regularly). What they say within the walls of their own religious edifices is one thing, but in the public arena, that is quite another. The C of E, RC church and others are the benefactors of my tax pounds that I find offensive. I and others have every right to bash back at them once they leave their churches, synagogues or mosques for the square of public opinion. They should stay out of politics or face revocation of my taxes allowing them the right of free speech and discrimination.

  17. Robert, you’re missing the point. I’m not denying the churchs intolerance to us, what I’m saying its wrong for us to expect tolerance when we seen incapable of it ourselves. Two wrongs don’t make a right. Bill Perdue is wrong, the enemy of our equality is nuts like him that alienate moderate thinking straight people. I’ve seen over the last few months how this Bill bloke bullies and insults people who are not screaming bitches like himself, and you should be ashamed of yourself for backing him up. Its people like you and Bill that are giving the bigots the ammunition to condem us by proving to their warped logic that we equality but not tolerating anyone who does not agree with us. Bill Perdue and his like are a disgrace to gay rights.

  18. re: ‘christians are, without exception, the declared enemy’We haven’t declared them so: by their actions (in the majority of major sects) where they preach hatred against, and contempt for, us, they display their feelings.The Nazis were the declared enemies of the liberal democracies, not because those democracies wanted enemies, but because the action of the NAzis placed them in that category.Don’t blame those of us worried by and fearful of the influence of the religionists: they preach hatred that can then be turned into and valdate homophobic acts.

  19. Bill Perdue 24 Jan 2008, 5:18pm

    Thanks Robert, its good a see another voice of sanity when a new infestation of conservative apologists for christian bigotry springs up out of nowhere. In this case it’s the same tired dishonest litany we’ve seen before – an attempt to turn reality on its head. We DO NOT persecute the christians, they DO persecute us. For instance, examine the inept attempt to lie in the script of the christian apologist that styles itself Gary Philpot. Look down at my post of 9:41 am where I say “christians are, almost without exception, the declared enemies of GLBT folk.” Philpot dishonestly alters what I said by erasing the word ‘almost’ and omitting the phrase ‘of GLBT folk’ and quotes me saying ‘christians are, without exception, the declared enemy’, trying to give the impression that a declaration of war against christians has been declared. (apYrs, does this latest counterfeit sleight of hand remind you of anyone, perhaps someone named Tomas.) With the rubbish about us persecuting those poor helpless bishops and ayatollahs safely back in its bin we can return to the real topic. GLBT groups and activists are not discriminating against bigots. In truth, as Robert and so many others point out, it’s really the christian bigots who are after us. I agree that the only difference between Phelps, the Pope, Huckabee and Akinola on the one hand and the killer ayatollahs in Iran on the other is in their ability to hurt us, not their intent to do so.Last night we had a forum based on the film Paragraph 175. What impressed me was the disorientation and disbelief of the Jewish and gay people targeted for death. The Nazis had been on a killing spree since 1923 but many people still couldn’t accept that it might happen to them. We have to be very clear headed about what christian and muslim theocrats have in mind for us. Omar, I don’t believe the totalitarian christian theocrats have a chance of duplicating the Nazi experience in the US. In fact, they’re steadily losing inference. But I agree that they could be as dangerous as the Nazis if we let our guard down. Right now there is a huge groundswell of resentment against the christian totalitarians in the US. One of the best sites I’ve come across on the topic of the christian cults is , a site “For all who would struggle against the tragedy of religion”. Apologists for christianity will find it disturbing and a bit ‘over the top’ but for the majority of GLBT folks it’s very informative.

  20. Robert, ex-pat Brit 24 Jan 2008, 5:25pm

    Ger, I think you too are missing the point entirely. Don’t condescend to compare me with Bill of whom I bear no grudge, no matter his political views. I don’t agree with everything he says but he has a right to say whatever he likes, please or offend.These religious denominations have for centures bashed,denigrated and in some cases executed us with impunity and as such should now be held accountable for their actions and past deeds. The Catholic Church during the time of Savonarola publicly burned gay men and has never apologised. Some of our ancestors in England during the middle ages were also tortured and executed by orders from the catholic church. Why do you think “homosexuality” was illegal in the UK? Simply put, its roots were in and are in church teaching. There is absolutely nothing in Roman law (the foundation of British law) that ever declared “homosexuality” to be illegal. It was fomented and enforced in our legal system by the church. Why should we be tolerant of religion, religious pundits and others of “faith” that wish to enforce homophobia, deny us our rights and in some cases, incite by intended or nonintended hate speech to commit crimes against us based on their regligious beliefs? Why do they not target other groups such as islamic fundamentalists, zionist and orthodox judaism, why us? Islam regards christians as infidels, Judaism refers to as as gentiles, the origin of which means “unclean”. Why aren’t they the targets of hatred? Its pretty clear why they aren’t. NO, I will never tolerate homophobia, veiled or otherwise, nor will I be complacent or act as an apologist for them or allow them to villify my life or my sexual orientation because it conflicts with their bigotry and hypocrisy. I am fully aware that there are some christans who aren’t that way. My gripe is against those who are and for good reason. They should put aside their personal views or beliefs and stop interfering in politics and more importantly in our lives.

  21. Robert, ex-pat Brit 24 Jan 2008, 5:26pm

    apYrs, well said! I echo your statement!

  22. William - Dublin 24 Jan 2008, 5:42pm

    “does this latest counterfeit sleight of hand remind you of anyone, perhaps someone named Tomas”For the love of…. now Ger and Gary are the same person as Tomas. Another Bill classic, that about 12 of us at the last count that are all the same perosn. Is everyone on this site on medication? Bill, you’d be hilarious is you weren’t so messed up in the head…. no doubt you wear a tin-foil cap to stop the aliens robbing your thoughts.One person makes a comment and what happens, the Bill brigade attack him. Gary has a good point, as does Omar, ApYrs and Robert, but you are all so aggressive against a valid opinion. Folks, you all need to lighten up. Ger touches on one point I agree with, if this sites comments are any indication of the people who are fighting for our LGBT fight for equality, then we’re all fucked.

  23. Yeah, thanks folks for proving a point there for me: you’re all a pack of histerical bitches with more baggage than an airline. Thankfully most gay people are more tolerant and normal than you lot.Oh, not you Billy boy. You’re not a histerical bitch. Heck, no, you’re a total fucking nut job. One of the more unbalanced people I’ve encountered on a site. Good luck with the out patient clinic and the meds.I’ll get my gay news somewhere else, thanks, away from you bigoted queens. Enjoy life!

  24. William - Dublin 24 Jan 2008, 6:23pm

    Ger, in fairness, I don’t think anyone was really getting at you personally. Maybe not worded the best, but most was not meant to be an insult or anything. And pinknews is still a good site, so don’t leave because of a few comments from a minority. Pay no attention to Bill, he’s barely indicative of a rational human, let alone a gay person, but the other do all have good varied points from time to time that are quite insightful and sometimes very funny.(And Speaking of funny, “Heck, no, you’re a total fucking nut job.” is the best I’ve seen in a while! Classic!)

  25. Robert, ex-pat Brit 24 Jan 2008, 6:26pm

    Bill, thank you and you’re welcome! As for your quote: “We DO NOT persecute the christians, they DO persecute us,” as does Islam and orthodox Judaism. I am in total agreement with that. Further, we have never petitioned to have their rights taken away because we don’t believe in their religious lifestyle which is a choice, not an natural orientation, nor their right to marry, among other things. They not only persecute and meddle in politics to prevent legislation from succeeding in our favour but they also lie about who we are and what we are. Instead, they rely on a book of hocus pocus, conflict and absurd references to use against us. I for one will NEVER become complacent or become one of their apologists, or kowtow and remain silent and not make waves because it “alienates” or sends the wrong message and is not politically correct. I’m done with those lame excuses and bull crap. They’ve had centuries to know the truth about us, but they’re primitive mindset refuses to allow them to accept it. They have not evolved nor have they bothered to reach out and heal the rift they’ve caused for a very long time. Instead, they choose to segregate, alienate and denigrate by their immoral, distorted views and beliefs on human sexuality.

  26. Ger and Gary…welcome to the club! Those of us who have no time for the rants of Bill. Please be prepared to be accused of being another poster, Sister Mary, as has happened to myself and William.Bill finds it difficult to accept that more than one poster may disagree with him. He hasn’t yet accused me of being William, though I feel it’s only a matter of time.

  27. William - Dublin 24 Jan 2008, 7:01pm

    Or maybe, Luke, I’m you? But then we’re both Sister Mary, of course. With a little of Tomas added in. Add a splattering of Ger, Gary and a Steve or two, mix well, and you’re done. Of course, there’s no nuts in this recipe… no Perdue’s at all in fact.I propose we call this merging of us “Super-Queer, the mightiest of all the genetically spliced queers!”

  28. Omar Kuddus 24 Jan 2008, 7:48pm

    Evil Reverend Fred Phelps Was this not what one was debating !

  29. Robert: didn’t you infer that it was about time people could be prosecuted for hate speach? “Don’t condescend to compare me with Bill of whom I bear no grudge, no matter his political views. I don’t agree with everything he says but he has a right to say whatever he likes, please or offend.” Robert, ex-pat Brit “Freedom of speech is one thing and I totally support that, but when it comes to inciting people to bash and kill LGBT people based on religious beliefs, then that becomes a very different issue.” Robert, ex-pat Brit You can’t have it both ways. Its ok for one person (ie Bill) to speak their hate because they are bashing Christian’s and not ok for someone else (ie Phelps) because the target is LGBT people? Come on! I DO NOT like what Christianity has done/is doing to LGBT people and other minorities but please leave the hypocricy to them.L

  30. Omar Kuddus 24 Jan 2008, 8:01pm

    In his own words: “Hi girls and boys! My name is Fred Phelps, and I’m the founder of Westboro Baptist Church! I’m a disbarred lawyer from Mississippi. In my free time, I spread hatred in the name of Jesus Christ and picket anybody who remotely opposes my opinion with my Westboro minions. It’s all about free speech! I’m also a strong believer of beating children to the point of unconsciousness. Yeehaw!*P.S.You’re going to hell “ disavow Ledger attack: FOXNews

  31. So Ger because some of us disagree with you and have decided that “yes in fact the three abrahaic religions are hostile to homosexuality and ultimately dangerous to be around if you’re gay” we’re bigotted queens.OK listen little boy:when you’ve been queer-bashed just because you’re walking down the street you tend to become wary and distrustful of the people that despise you.When the established church fulminates against your right to exist as a gay person because you’re queer, it does tend to focus your mind on the dangers that the established church represents.Once you’ve stood in Auschwitz, or Buchenwald, or the other hell holes you realise just how thin the line between hate and action is.I’m not apologising for my distrust of the bigots in the church and other religions. All our freedoms could be removed tomorrow under the right circumstances – it happened aftet the fall of Weimar Germany (the most liberal regime of the last century) when the Nazis took over. Given the need for scapegoats a politician could do it here. And the churches would weep crocodile tears

  32. Robert, ex-pat Brit 24 Jan 2008, 9:26pm

    Leilah: “Freedom of speech is one thing and I totally support that, but when it comes to inciting people to bash and kill LGBT people based on religious beliefs, then that becomes a very different issue.” Robert, ex-pat Brit”Leilah, this is hardly hypocrisy on my part. Christians and others have been bashing and killing us for centuries and don’t forget, “homosexuality” wasn’t decriminalised until the 1960s in the UK aided and abetted by the religious denominations. Had they been the true christians they purported to be, they would have lifted a finger to help us, but they didn’t, just as they did nothing during the holocaust. They remained silent and their silence gave consent!Bill has every right to bash christians and others who’ve been bashing us and preventing us from getting our equality and I see no hypocrisy in criticising bigoted christians for that either. Its deserved and long overdue. What I find offensive is that my tax pounds prop up these institutions of hatred and intolerance. It is THEY who want it both ways, not me or anybody else truly interested in full equality. Your veiled apologies for them is questionable.So having said that, do you expect any sane, rational thinking gay man or woman to sit back, do nothing and let them rant and promote discrimination and if we bash back, we’re then to be accused of hypocrisy for doing so, or watch our p’s and q’s while they have carte blanche to denigrate us anyway they like? If they stopped with the hate speech, stopped villifying us and telling lies about us I wouldn’t have an argument. The fact is, they DO, without letup. I’m sick and tired of it. They want my respect and tolerance, then give me mine in return and I’ll shut up. Works both ways, not their way or the highway!

  33. Robert, ex-pat Brit 24 Jan 2008, 9:35pm

    apYrs, nicely said. Scapegoats we are because there is no other group they can hate or villify. Who are they to judge, by what moral authority? They have none. If they denigrated ethnic or religious groups there would be uproar. Therein lies the hypocrisy as well as the bigotry.To digress, if you recall the use of the word “faggot” in that Pogues song recently, we were accused of being oversensitive since 95% of people polled didn’t think it was that offensive and that it was an example of free speech even if it targeted a specific group. Well now, what would that same 95% say if every racial or religious slur were permitted in the name of free speech? I think you get my drift. If that isn’t hypocrisy, I don’t know what is.

  34. World of Twist 24 Jan 2008, 11:01pm

    Have to agree with RobertXP ,apYers, Omar and indeed Bill here. Some great posts guys.I didn’t see anything hysterical about Bill’s posts at all and cannot understand the anger directed at him. Save your rage for those that truly deserve it.It’s all fine and well being tolerant and respectful towards the Deists but please don’t kid yourselves that this will in any way be reciprocated by them…it simply won’t .Right now they are pouring a great deal of their resources into sinister think tanks that work tirelessly to try and prove that what we are are nothing more than deviants.They salivate at the prospect of Homosexuality not being genetic and in fact a choice.If they can prove this then they can go full steam ahead and classify us as perverts ,dehumanise us and then progress to stripping us of what little rights we have, deny us employment rights,reserve the power to deny us goods and services and God only knows what other little nasty surprises they have up their sleeves. They care very little that their words can lead to actions and give succour to the homophobe.God is love….not if you’re gay he’s not.

  35. William - Dublin 25 Jan 2008, 8:27am

    Robert and Apyrs and World of Twist, bear in mind that Bill has shown on numerous occasions a strong racist belief. You can back him all you like, but I find it disgusting, it has no place on this site. You all want to be shown equality, and yet you defend someone whos only short of putting a pillow on his head and cutting out eye sockets. I don’t understand that hypocrisy to be honest. Racist attacks against are not an opinion, and should not be defended as such. Nor should the racist.

  36. William Dublinwell done there: when you can’t debate the argument tackle the man. YOu’ve just accused me ofbeing an apologist for someone youi call a racist. If you’d actually read my contributions you’d had realised that with the exception of the latest one on this thread I try to address the issue. If that offends because I happen to belive the LGBT cummunity needs protecting from those who hate us then tough. I didn’t march in the 70’s to be told by children that we don’t need to protect ourselves.But there you go, accuse someone of an unforgivable sin (fellow traveller to an alleged racist) and you can ignore what they say. I find myself offended by your accusation: no doubt I need a period of absence from this site while some of the contributors continue to be grateful for the crumbs the straight community in the UK allows us.Just hope they don’t change their collective mind.Goodbye

  37. Robert, ex-pat Brit 25 Jan 2008, 1:32pm

    World of Twist, right on, so agree with your statement! They’d do to us what the Nazis did to the Jews given the chance and not lose any sleep over it. All it takes is complacency and ignorance on the part of our fellow LGBT brothers and sisters to create that kind of climate. Anyone who apologises for them one iota needs his or her head examined. If they can’t respect my right to exist and enjoy equality, then they deserve nothing more than our collective wrath.

  38. Robert, ex-pat Brit 25 Jan 2008, 1:37pm

    William, with respect, I do not fully concur with Bill’s political views, there is much I disagree with, but not everything. What I do agree with is his defence of LGBT people and the hate groups who are in earnest about denying us our rights or who denigrate and regard us as less than normal let alone human and who think we should be relegated to a life as social outcasts, nothing more. The lies, the hate speech perpetrated by these people is unconscionable. It is clear these bigots and hypocrites are devoid of rational thinking, humanity or compassion.

  39. Robert, ex-pat Brit 25 Jan 2008, 1:43pm

    apYrs, I too and some of my friends marched in the 70s and was arrested and dragged off to the Vine Street station and charged with disorderly conduct. The homophobic slurs and comments flying around during that episode at the station were unparalleled. So I know what discrimination and antigay epithets can do to one’s psyche and well being. I have never forgotten it and I will always be vigilant and never take my rights for granted, let alone become complacent. They can be taken away at any given time.

  40. William - Dublin 25 Jan 2008, 1:48pm

    Apyrs, I am not arguing a point with you that I agree with. I agree that religious institutions are, and have been, one of the principal obstacles to our equality.You said you can’t understand the anger towards Bill. Perhaps you haven’t read his disgusting attacks on England? Or his stupid, and deeply offensive “insights” to Ireland? Please, I’m not saying he’s a racist. HE’S saying that. That “anti-English” crap nearly tore my own country apart, and is still doing it in certain parts. And I am Irish, proudly so, but I am not, and will not support, an “anti-English” nonsense. Bill has never even been to England or Ireland, yet he condemns its people and culture? Ignorance and petty unfounded hate against a country and its people, simply based on a warped version of history, is simply disgusting to an educated man like myself. And in my experience, there is little difference between racism against a country and bigotry towards us gay people. I want equality… but I don’t want it by becoming a bigot myself. My argument never was about defending the churches. I believe, however, that we need to change peoples point of view, not scream hate at every person that uses a cross to condemn us. They are doing their own damage, let them become a minority! If 90% of the world is straight, then we need their support. We can’t do this alone, we don’t have the numbers. Was it just gay people who gave the British people partnership rights? No, it was mainly straight people in government who have the foresight not to listen to the churches, and I for one would like to build on that understanding. Thats how, I believe, we will ultimately win. We stand tall, and proud, and fight ignorance with reason, fight religion with fact, and we will win at the end of the day. Already the Christians are loosing the battle, as Americans call it, the battle of “hearts and minds”. Lets them keep digging their grave, and all the while we gain allies because their rants get more feverish.But I will not, and never will, suppose a racist like Bill Perdue, to further my own gains. I hope I have cleared up any misunderstanding, Apyrs (and Robert and World of Twist)

  41. William - Dublin 25 Jan 2008, 2:00pm

    “William, with respect, I do not fully concur with Bill’s political views, there is much I disagree with, but not everything”Robert, I understand that, and I have nothing against anyone’s political point of view. And, I do have one thing in common with Bill, I agree with Bill’s single mindedness with respect to our equality. But I cannot condone a racist. Nor can I condone a bully. My post was not meant to be personal against you, you and I do agree on a lot, albeit from perhaps difference personal perspectives. And I respect that. I was simply pointing out that we must be careful who our allies are… lets not side with those who do more damage to our cause, no matter what their intentions may be. The road to hell being paved with them and all. And it seems I’m not the only person on this site who feels like this, many have been victim to Bill’s bulling and racism, and that’s just not acceptable. If we cant even respect each others nationality and opinions, we have no right to demand true equality or to hope to rise above these religious nuts.Hope this, and my last post clears up any misunderstanding here. And Omar is right, this discussion should be about that bottom feeder Phelps.

  42. Robert, ex-pat Brit 25 Jan 2008, 5:59pm

    William, thank you. I appreciate your clarity on this and I didn’t really take it personally, you are a far better person than that. Let us all concentrate on what unites us, and lets all agree to disagree on things we don’t see eye to eye on. I agree, bullying tactics, no matter one’s political beliefs are not the way forward. I know we are winning and the right wingers are losing, everywhere on this planet, not fast enough for most of us, but indeed they are losing the cultural war and they know it. Long may it flourish.

  43. Bill Perdue 25 Jan 2008, 7:23pm

    When Robert ex-pat says “… I do not fully concur with Bill’s political views, there is much I disagree with, but not everything” he’s restating the groundwork for all democratic discussions. Most of us come from any number of political backgrounds but can unite on a common ground of support full equality, including marriage equality and the enactment and strict enforcement of protective laws. And of course we can all, with the exception of apologists for superstition and homophobia, manage to express a healthy contempt for most christian groups because they’re gay haters and that hatred leads to discrimination, harassment and violence. The personal attacks have been vicious but so inept that they’re easily dismissed. Twisted Sister says Omar is an incompetent liar who’s sabotaging efforts to prevent the deportation of asylum seekers to killer states like Iran. Omar refuted those lies. Twisted Sister and ‘William’ say that I’m a racist and bully because I condemn the vermin who run the DUP and oppose self loathing apologists. They say that I’m successfully mounting a terrorist-blackmail campaign against EqualityCalifornia, a particularly inept lie on their part because EQCA has no such record of it or ‘Tomas’. They proved themselves liars when they rather stupidly forgot to use American colloquial spelling when scripting ‘Tomas’. Twisted Sister says that Robertexpat is a merchant of ‘death or marriage’ what ever that means. Twisted Sister and other ‘supporters’ also claim that Malcolm Lidbury has an ‘unhealthy’ interest in a young 15 year old man, and we know what that slander means, and that his opposition to police abuse is a front for his ‘bitterness’ and to make money. Shawn of Canada got the same bitter treatment from ‘William’ for being critical of catholic bigotry against samesex marriage in Ireland. Marcomilano got the treatment because he will not give an inch on the question of samesex marriage. And there have been plenty of others. The solution is to do what has to be done to limit the discussion to politics. Honest activists and analysts have plenty of very important questions to discuss and even argue about and we shouldn’t have to be bothered by these idiocies. They poison the atmosphere and worse, divert us, as they are intended to, from allowing us to inform one another about our all important struggle for equality.

  44. World of Twist 25 Jan 2008, 7:57pm

    William.Great post, I agree with you, it’s thanks to straight people that Homophobia is on the wane and you are right that without their help, the civil partnerships would never had got through.I couldn’t see anything racist in Bill’s recent post and am not aware of anything racist he has posted prior.But then I’m kinda new around here. I certainly don’t condone racist commentary in any shape or form.I have nothing against individuals who have a spiritual dimension to them (sounds like a cliche but my very best friend is devoutly religious), but I am very wary of organisations. But you are right again about them shooting themselves in the foot. They seem to be inspiring the same loathing in straight people as they do in gay.I agree also with Robert (Hell I’m agreeing with everybody tonight) let’s concentrate on what unites us.It’s just that with all the horrible things they are throwing at us it’s not surprising that some of us just need a little outlet to vent some. that’s all.

  45. Robert, ex-pat Brit 25 Jan 2008, 9:05pm

    World of Twist, hello! You said…”It’s just that with all the horrible things they are throwing at us it’s not surprising that some of us just need a little outlet to vent some. that’s all.” You’re absolutely right, its a natural reaction and its healthy. To say or do nothing is to give consent to what is being said about us, usually lies, myths and just plain hatred, most of it emanating from religious beliefs. If we allow it to go unchecked, then we’re heading down a very slippery slope. None of us should take our rights for granted or become indifferent or complacent in regard to those here and abroad who do not enjoy any rights. As for straights granting us more rights, these didn’t come voluntarily out of the goodness of their hearts, lets be mindful of that. They were fought for in earnest by some brave and courageous Gay men and women who demanded dialogue with their representatives in government and pressure from the EU commission to comply with certain human rights laws. There is much more to do until we have won our full and total equality.

  46. Omar Kuddus 25 Jan 2008, 9:17pm

    We are all meant to be mature adults here, trying to view our personnel points of views on the topic at hand.But recently have noted that we seem to be going off on a tangent and far from the subject in hand, (in this case the vile despicable hatemonger, which we are meant to appose), and we seem to be doing his job for him.I realise that everyone does not like everyone (I myself have made it clear whom I will not respond to) but by getting at each other and “bitching” and “getting ones claws out” it does not help and just reverts back to the same old arguments. So why don’t we all take it as read who does not like each other and what we think of them and their opinions.The fight is meant to be for equality and acceptance, but apparently it seems that we cannot even accept our own, as they have different opinions or beliefs. In that we forget what units us, and that in the end, we do carry something in common, our sexuality.Being gay does not mean we are all the same, stereotyped, as the heterosexual community would like to view us as. Ours is a diverse culture, with lots of subcultures that in themselves, provide and give rise to different opinions and needs.Lets not forget that the real enemy is out there and not here (hopefully under false pretences), and despite everyone’s opinions or beliefs, we all want the same thing, broadly speaking , in the end.Acceptance and Equality, without the threat of, Homophobia or Discrimination from the rest of society.I hope that no one takes offend to this, but look at all the recent posts and it has become like a broken record.I doubt that all will kiss and make up, but please can we keep focused on the subject on hand.I believe you are genuinely decent folk who all want the same thing, in the end, so with a bit of unity and cooperation, with a bit of give and take, maybe, just achieve this.I already apologise, for I feel it is not appropriate to tell anyone how to behave or act, but then it is a matter of free speech and opinion and that folks, is what a “comment” is.And what everyone here has a fundamental right to, either granted by congress, constitution , parliament or EU law.

  47. Omar Kuddus 25 Jan 2008, 9:19pm

    Ps. can anyone please tell me if they are having problems with logging into Yahoo, UK too?

  48. Great post there Bill, mate. Just when everyone agrees that they all have a common goal, you go and do the opposite by going at them again with a hammer. Well done, mate, you must be a shining example of single minded prejudice.

  49. William - Dublin 26 Jan 2008, 4:48pm

    “critical of catholic bigotry against samesex marriage in Ireland.”Here we go again. Another pack of lies and twisted truths from someone who thinks all the English are “imperial pigs”. Jaysus, this is getting tiresome.Bill, when you get off your arse and bother to visit Ireland, then I’ll let you speak like you know what you’re talking about. In actual fact, the RC opposition to gay marriage in Ireland is almost irrelevant. As seen in a recent on line poll at the Irish Times, 73% voted in favour of the state supporting gay marriage.In Ireland its democracy that speaks, no longer the Catholic Church.As for my supposed attacks on Shawn, more of your lies Bill? I think so.

  50. Robert, ex-pat Brit 26 Jan 2008, 5:55pm

    William, that 73% voted in an online poll in support of same-sex marriage equality in Ireland, if that is the correct percentile, then why would Ahern pursue civil partnerships? From what I know, the Irish constitution states that institution of marriage must be preserverd (between a man and a woman), or am I wrong? Given that recent poll, is his coalition now going to change in favour of full marriage equality? That would be marvellous if he did.

  51. OMAR KUDDUS 26 Jan 2008, 6:36pm

    Robert, I could not agree with you more, if what William is saying is correct.My understanding being the same as yours and that the obstacle in granting marriage in Ireland being what the constitution states, that is between a man and a woman.For you are no doubt aware, that, a lesbian couple, legally married in Canada launched a landmark lawsuit seeking to win the same legal rights and financial benefits as married heterosexuals in Ireland.Their action followed a similar case in Britain, where another lesbian couple, unsuccessfully sued, to have their marriage recognized under British law. The Irish government argued that it can not accept the women’s argument partly because of Ireland’s conservative 1937 constitution, which commits the state “to guard with special care the institution of marriage, on which the family is founded, and to protect it against attack.” Homosexuality, having been illegal in Ireland until 1993. On December 15, 2006, The Ireland High Court rejected the couple’s demand to have their Canadian “marriage” recognized in Ireland, in a landmark ruling .Justice Elizabeth Dunne decided against the claim, despite their argument, that the State and the Revenue Commissioners had violated their constitutional rights by refusing to assess them for taxes as a married couple. Justice Dunne wrote in her lengthy ruling, “Marriage was understood under the 1937 Constitution to be confined to persons of the opposite sex,” “Having regard to the clear understanding of the meaning of marriage as set out in the numerous authorities opened to the Court from this jurisdiction and elsewhere, I do not see how marriage can be redefined by the Court to encompass same sex marriage.”Justice Dunne rejected the couple’s argument that international acceptance of homosexual ‘marriage’ was reason enough for re-evaluation of Irish law.”The Plaintiffs referred frequently in the course of this case to the ‘changing consensus’ but I have to say the [sic] there is little evidence of that,” “The consensus around the world does not support a widespread move towards same sex marriage. There has been some limited support for the concept of same sex marriage as in Canada, Massachusetts and South Africa together with…three European countries…but, in truth, it is difficult to see that as a consensus, changing or otherwise.”In her 138-page ruling, Justice Dunne expressed concern about the effect of same-sex marriage on children, saying the lack of conclusive research into the results of homosexual parenting made it necessary to reserve judgment on the issue.”[T]here is simply not enough evidence from the research done to date that could allow firm conclusions to be drawn as to the consequences of same sex marriage particularly in the area of the welfare of children.”Justice Dunne said the decision to grant legal recognition to same-sex couples apart from marriage should be up to the legislature, not the courts

  52. William - Dublin 26 Jan 2008, 6:46pm

    Unfortunately, no, Robert, I wish it was the case. Our government has been ruled by Fianna Fail, and they are socially conservative at best, not to mention slightly leaning towards the catholic side of “morals” (that said they have stood up to them before, namely in the canon law fiasco a few years ago, the Fianna Fail led governmment basically told the RC that canon law has as much effect as the rules of a golf club! About time too!)It would seem that most of the population are in favour of marriage, but the constitution might be challenged (and that is still not certain), if full marriage were given to gay couples. Having said that, the outcome of the KAL Case by the Supreme Court and recent rulings by the ECHR may change that. Our constitution can only be changed by majority vote by the people, and Fianna Fail are afraid any constitutional challenge would fail, and so would a referendum to change the definition of marriage. Not very brave of them, I know, but they’re not knows for radical thinking… hence why Ireland has nothing even close to the UK on gay partnership rights.I personally, don’t think that is the case, I think the Irish would welcome gay marrage. Ireland is not the poor ignorant country under the hold of the RC as it was back in the 50’s or even 80’s.What’s really needed is a braver and stronger collation government:- Labour, Fianna Gael and the Greens. Although the Greens are in government currently, they have shown no backbone for pushing the Fianna Fail party to gay marriage (Last time the Greens get my vote that’s for sure!)Still, patience will give us that right and choice eventually. Its just a matter of time, and some consistent pressure.

  53. Robert, ex-pat Brit 26 Jan 2008, 8:17pm

    Omar, thank you. Actually, there have been conclusive studies done in the area of same-sex parenting and the results were overwhelmingly favourable, in fact some studies actually verified that many children of these couples often do a lot better than those in heterosexual parent families. It has been corroborated by many leading psychiatrists and psychologists involved with paediatrics.Having said that, I would like to ask and this is hypothetical of course, how would the same court have responded in regard to say a gay man and gay woman who had children together? The fact they are opposite sex I would presume would make them ideal parents regardless of their gay orientation. How would the same judge have weighed in on that I wonder?The argument against marriage equality as you and I know is totally without foundation. Its religion rearing its ugly head again though in veiled guises within the legal system.

  54. Robert, ex-pat Brit 26 Jan 2008, 8:29pm

    William, am a Green too. In fact, its the only world party that endorses full marriage equality. I think as more countries offer marriage, Sweden is one that is about to do that and I daresay others in that part of Europe will follow suit, then I think consensus will eventually lead to full marriage recognition for same-sex couples. I think that is inevitable, no turning the clock back. Four out of the five already offering marriage abandoned civil unions for marriage and now Sweden looks like it will be the sixth country to do do. Even if Ireland legislates for civil partnerships, it should also offer it to heterosexual couples who choose not to marry, or siblings who live together and who don’t have any protections from the draconian inheritance laws in the UK, such as the case of those two old ladies in the UK who face losing their home together should one of them predecease the other losing 40% of the sale of their house to inheritance taxes, something they could never afford to lose. Its such an unfair law to say the least and cruel. Opening civil partnerships to everyone should be the norm. Its very unfair to treat elderly people in this manner. I sincerely hope Ireland goes a bit further than we did.

  55. William - Dublin 27 Jan 2008, 10:34am

    “Even if Ireland legislates for civil partnerships, it should also offer it to heterosexual couples who choose not to marry”I fully agree with that statement, Robert. I personally want civil partnership in preference to marriage for me and my partner, but I would like to see the choice. In the same vein, that choice should be extended to heterosexual couples, as I personally know many straight friends who also do not want to be married, but would prefer the partnership option on principal. Its all about choice at the end of the day, the freedom to live ones lives according to his or hers own beliefs.I am a supporter of the Green party, and while they are making some advances with environmental issue in the Republic, they, sadly, have been disturbingly quite in the issue of gay marriage/partnerships… they seem more eager to pacify the Fianna Fail majority to maintain their place in government rather than standing up for their principles. Its very disappointing for someone who voted for them based on their equality manifesto. Still, as you say, patience is the name of the game… a war is won in small battles after all.

  56. OMAR KUDDUS 27 Jan 2008, 3:01pm

    Robert, you are absolutely correct to say that the argument against marriage equality is without foundation and principally based on Religion and Beliefs, and thus why it Can and Shall be challenged in law, by some individual, soon (believe me if I was able to marry my partner (which shall hopefully happen soon) I would have brought this case up long ago), as the law allows one to challenge this clear discrimination under various article and presidents.I feel, that one way forward, would be to offer everyone one the choice of either marriage or civil partnership, and thus if both heterosexual and homosexual couples had the choice, then there would be no discrimination, especially as not all of both sides of the fence want to “marry” but would rather chose a civil union. William I hope that Ireland follows this rout, and with so may EU countries now allowing “ marriage” it is inevitable that this shall happen, as some one can demand it, again under EU law, as it formulates discrimination, and goes against principal.In regards to Irelands refusal, and the children issues raised, The United States-based Institute for Marriage and Public Policy commented on the Irish court decision, saying:’Of particular interest may be the court’s discussion about the evidence purporting to show no difference between children raised by same-sex couples and those raised by married couples. The judge accepted testimony about the methodological shortcomings of available evidence and said: “It also seems to me having regard to the criticism of the methodology used in the majority of the studies conducted to date that until such time as there are more longitudinal studies involving much larger samples that it will be difficult to reach firm conclusions on this topic.”‘ ‘The court concluded that the Irish Constitution’s explicit reference to a constitutional right of opposite-sex couples to marry justified the legal distinction between same- and opposite-sex couples in the marriage law. The court further noted, however, that the marriage law was further justified by concerns with the ‘welfare of children’ since in the absence of good research, ‘the State is entitled to adopt a cautious approach to changing the capacity to marry.'”.

  57. Robert, ex-pat Brit 27 Jan 2008, 3:42pm

    Omar, in the interests of full equality, the UK government should and must offer civil partnerships to everyone, especially for straight couples who would rather not marry and for same sex straight siblings or relatives who cohabit together. Similarly, everyone should and must have the right to marry as they do in South Africa. That would be true equality. People should have the right to choose and let us not forget that marriage is also an civil issue and its sole purpose is NOT for the procreation of children either, its about love and commitment first, children are secondary and a choice. If right wing christian bigots and others insist that children are the reason for marriage, then why aren’t they going after straight married couples who can’t have children or choose not to, or people beyond child-bearing age, or better yet, why aren’t they calling for them to be prohibited from marrying? As I said in a previous, there is NO foundation any longer to say who can and who cannot marry. The bigots can’t have it both ways. They’ve lost the moral argument and so has government.

  58. OMAR KUDDUS 27 Jan 2008, 5:35pm

    Robert, the government here and in Ireland has lost their defence and argument long ago, and you are absolutely correct in your analyse of what needs to be done to achieve equality, and what I have been yelling on deaf ears for some time.One of the reasons is that to achieve equality, marriage and civil partnership has to be on offer to everyone irrespective of their sexual orientation.South Africa realised this from the start, as it in itself is a form of Apartide (meaning apartness in Afrikaans) and thus discriminatory.Though, I respect the individuals rights to their religion, in this day and age, with multi faiths and those without, it can no longer play a part in politics and the laws of the land, as if it does, it shall and does, commit and produce discrimination.The excuses of children, morality and religion have long since expired and all it shall take to change this situation, is for someone to stand forth and be counted and show the error of the system as it is and demand that equality is restored, as is ones right under principle and the laws governing this country.For believe me, if this has not been changed, by the time I am allowed to marry, I shall be in front of the queue, yelling for my rights, and achieving this goal.

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