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Policy Exchange stands by report into homophobic Muslim texts

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  1. Interesting that the BBC has used its resources to try and discredit a report on islamic hatred of gays.Shame they don’t have the balls to do what Channel 4 did with their “Undercover Mosque” programme.The irony is that a lot of the BBCs gay staff would be strung up by the neck by these mad mullahs if they got half a chance.We’re supposed to be tolerant of them while they openly call for our murder. F**k that for a game of soldiers.Their comment about 3/4 of the mosques being respectable is ridiculous. You could also argue that for 3/4 of his life, Hitler wasn’t such a bad chap.So as usual, rather than addressing the issue of widespread islamic intolerance of gays, Jews and, well everyone else, the BBC adopts a position of grovelling dhimmitude (at the expense of the licence payer)

  2. How many more young Muslims have to die and be subjected to ridicule and persecution before the British Government takes action and says enough is enough.?Its time that the Muslim gay community finally opens our mouths and show our protests and disgust, and make ourselves heard that such barbaric behaviour is not acceptable. The Iranian Minister Mohsen Yahyavi ( who is the highest-ranked politician to admit that Iran believes in the death penalty for homosexuality) told British MP’s at the Inter-Parliamentary Union in May this year, that homosexuals should be executed [he initially said tortured but changed it to executed]. And Iran has again kept its word, despite President Ahmadinejad, questioned by students in New York two months ago about the executions, claimed there were no gays in Iran.For it is only by chance and the roll of the dice, that we are not born in Iran ( or other Islamic states), that we here in the west are not in their shoes and facing the same persecution, torture and death for our sexuality.I am gay but am also a Muslim, and find that my religion allows me to be judged by one and one only. God himself. So the clerics can say what they want, for they are not the law, Islam is. As the first line in the Koran states, he is merciful and forgiving.

  3. luke i couldn’t agree more…we are all far too tolerant of Islamic non-tolerance…a religion that thinks it’s ok to murder homosexuals and indeed anyone and everyone with a different point of view has no place in any modern society. the Koran needs a good deal of editing with a very thick black marker pen…oops but i shouldn’t have said that incase some muslim decides that alone is grounds to murder me…nice bunch of people!

  4. Omar, i’ve just read your response to Luke’s comment and i hope i didn’t offend but surely you can see that if there are those lines in the koran about executing homosexuals or apostates etc , then attitudes in Islamic countries won’t change until those lines are removed or until the countries secularize like most of Europe has. I have lived in the middle east in Dubai and with much more difficulty in Aden and Sana’a in Yemen….and i don’t believ there is any hope for gay rights or womens rights while the majority of the opoulation insist on taking the Koran as literally the word of GOD

  5. It’s hardly as if the Koran is the only religious text in the world that calls for the death of homosexuals, you also have to remember that there wont be a time when the Koran is seen as not being the word of God it would be like a Christian telling Jesus he’s wrong. However it must also be noted that the Koran is a very poetic text that like all other religious texts was not written in this day and age and uses archaic language the meaning of which has changed since it was written, it would be entirely possible to have Gay rights and believe the Koran to be the word of God, especially if more people made more of a point of the point that Omar made that God is always described as the only one who is allowed to be judged in all religions the god is the one to judge. Personally, I’m an atheist I don’t like religion but I think for the present it can be worked around.

  6. Hello, You need only visit my main blog above to understand my views on freedom of choice,in any aspect of our daily life. While we continue to be controlled by misguided political, military, religious, commercial, and media, so called leaders, this will not cease to be an issue. I am a 74 years young holistic activist, who is suffering from an incuarable illness, I am also a vegetarian of 50 years standing, this is one of the reason that I am still alive. I intend to spend my remaining years reseaching and promoting the Holistic Way of Life in all its different aspects. My main aim is get people around the world to start to think and act Holistically, by getting rid of the antiquated systems outlined above, which have been the cause of war, conflict, hatred and disunity for thousands of years. What we need now is to elect an Holistic Governance, locally nationally and internationally, which would consider first the persons aims and goals before his or her wealth, standing and position, family background and power in society. Would you like to live as a whole undivided and united race,in harmony and at peace with ouselves and each others?

  7. Omar Kuddus 18 Dec 2007, 3:40pm

    Dear Andy,The Koran does not state ANYWHERE OR SANCTION the violent murder, torture or even persecution of homosexuals. But like all religions the clerics own interpretation of the gospel/ teaching (normally to their own advantage or agendas) to their understandings and beliefs, and thus make oppression and domination acceptable.I am a Muslim (and proud of it) but adapt my religion to the true wordings, and live my life as best as I can, for as stated no one on earth has the right to judge me or how I live my life.My partner (a Kurdish Iranian failed Asylum seeker who I have been trying to form a civil partnership with for the past two years) has brought home to me the true nature of how religion can be used to persecute and murder, but it’s the individual / or government who is hiding behind the faith and not the teachings itself.Even Iran (And, although the Islamic Republic of Iran is one of only nine countries in which homosexuality is still punishable by death and we all know its views about homosexuality and how to deal with its problems) who systematically persecutes homosexuals recently declared it to be illegal.”Iran’s chief justice, Ayatollah Seyed Mahmoud Hashemi Shahrudi, declared Makwan’s death sentence to be against the principles of Islam, citing a religious decree issued by Iran’s Supreme Leader Ayatollah Khamenei. Ayatollah Shahrudi then ordered the execution halted until there could be a retrial.” Then in a statement reminiscent to that of Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad’s infamous claim in New York that “there are no homosexuals in Iran,” on December 11 the ISNA news agency reported that a spokesman for the Judiciary, Dr. Alireza Jamshidi, claimed, “The chief justice did not issue an order to stop his [Makwan's] execution.” But not only did Khalatbari report the existence of that order, both Makwan’s lawyer and the International Gay and Lesbian Human Rights Commission have copies of the official legal documents containing it.So is it Iran, Islam, the Cleric or Governments that are responsible for the persecution, torture and state sanctioned murder and oppression?You will find that Islam is one of the most tolerant religions and does not condone or promote violence or such barbaric acts carried out in its name. Which itself is against the teachings of the Koran.Take time to Google my name and read all I have said and done regarding Gay rights (and not only for Muslims) and secure a future for homosexuals to live without fear and to be accepted for who we are. Human Beings.

  8. Robert, ex-pat Brit 18 Dec 2007, 3:55pm

    Omar, if what you say is true about the Koran, then why aren’t islamic people condemning the extremists in public? Why aren’t the leaders in that part of the world not going after them? We hardly hear any condemnation by moderates both here and abroad. None of the major christian denominations are doing anything either. They say silence gives consent and its been pretty deafening over the past two to three years from all sides.

  9. Islam is a primitive, savage religion. This is borne out by its attitude to homosexuals, to women and to apostasy. It has no place in a modern, civilized western society.

  10. Omar Kuddus 18 Dec 2007, 4:39pm

    Robert, (ex-pat Brit )Because people like sheep follow and condemnation makes oneself known or brings our options into the public domain and people unfortunately find it easier (and don’t ask me how they sleep at nights) to be silent. Those who follow their religion devotedly, tend to listen to the clerics and take their words as the “gospel” and what is to be true, without questioning or demanding a reasoning for the justification.Everything in the Koran is open to interpretation and we all know that anything can be made to mean something else.Kids / People are being killed, persecuted everyday in Islamic States under the guise of Shari law or the teachings of Islam, when they are far from what is meant to happen. Read the first lines of the Koran, which will state, that God is forgiving and merciful and only he can pass judgment, and only he we are responsible to as Muslims.Was there any news in the media or fuss made regarding the unlawful killing of Makvan, last week in Iran? NO. Email me at Gayasylum@yahoo.co.uk and ill bring you up to speed about Islam and homosexuality and the persecution and what and why the west is ignoring to do, if you like.

  11. Omar, the Suras of the Koran can broadly be split into 2 parts:1) The Meccan ones, when Mohammed was not so strong and needed to be more peaceful and conciliatory.2) The Medinan ones, when Mohammed was a lot stronger largely as a result of waging war and pillaging caravans.It is an amazing coincidence, that nearly all the peaceable parts of the Koran from the Meccan period were abrogated, or superseeded, by the more aggressive ones from Mohammed’s Medinan period.It’s almost as if Mohammed felt he could say what he liked when he was more powerful.To say that: “You will find that Islam is one of the most tolerant religions and does not condone or promote violence or such barbaric acts carried out in its name. Which itself is against the teachings of the Koran” is frankly, stretching creduility to breaking point.The killing of apostates being a topical example. Mohammed himself said to kill anyone who changes their religion (from islam) according to the Hadiths of Bukhari which are the most reliable.There are numerous verses in the koran that promote violence against non believers of all descriptions. While there may be similar in the Old Testement, Christianity has largely moved on from that with the New Testement and allowing for separation of Church and State.Let’s be blunt. We dumped a lot of the stupidity of the Bible a long time ago. But we all know what reaction we would get if we suggested doing likewise with the KoranIf Islam is so tolerant, why is homosexuality illegal in all but one of the 56 islamic states? The exception is Turkey (hardly a bastion of human rights by anyone’s standards) which has a secular constitution guaranteed by the army.As the Koran is decreed to be the literal word of Allah, valid for all eternity, it is difficult to see where any reformation of Islam is coming from. We need to be able to consign a lot of it to 7th century Arabia, but that just doesn’t look like happening.Just look at the reaction to Salman Rushdie’s book, those Danish cartoons, The Sudan teddy bear to see how violently islam reacts to the type of thing that anyone else would just shrug off.There may well be many decent, tolerant Muslims, but Islam itself is not. Any moderate Muslim would soon lose a theological debate (on fear of his life) with any well versed, homicidal cleric.It’s now getting to the situation in the West, that we are self-censoring any criticism of Islam or Mohammed out of fear for our lives.In the meantime, Islamic clerics openly call for our death with impunity.

  12. Robert, ex-pat Brit 18 Dec 2007, 7:19pm

    Neville, christianity isn’t much better either. Just as hypocritical and bigoted as any other. These socalled christians claim that the scriptures say being gay is wrong yet they ignore all of the references to straights that could be construed as offensive and judgmental such as the right to kill your wife for adultery, your children, not eating shellfish or wearing fabric of more than one or two threads, the shaving of one’s beard, staying away from one’s wife when she’s menstruating. They ignore all of that and nobody goes after them either let alone challenges them. Its so transparent what they’re about.

  13. Neville you make it sound like there is another religion out there that is better, truth is there isn’t: all religions preach both peace and violence, Islam is a relatively new religion and as such its believers will hold stronger beliefs there is nothing that can be done about that, religion will get watered down by every generation, until then all we can do is try and help people born in countries where their sexuality is not accepted. Debating the merits of any specific religion will not get anybody anywhere but back where they started, we should be discussing how we can help the gay people born in Iran and other theocratic countries since the government and religious beliefs of these countries is not going to change any time soon.

  14. Robert, ex-pat Brit 18 Dec 2007, 7:50pm

    David, in a way our own country behaves much like a theocracy since we have state religion, the C of E. A denomination that has real power even today. If it hadn’t, Blair could have pushed for marriage equality, but he didn’t. He was afraid to upset Williams and his counterpart in the RC church. I’m all for the separation of church and state, in fact even abolishing it altogehter. It has no place in a modern society and should not be dictating to government who can marry and who can’t. Government in general should not be involved in who gets to marry and who does not. None of their damn business. If I can fight and die for my country in a war, pay taxes, I should have exactly the same rights as an heterosexual, absolutely no exceptions. Anything less is not equal and its not democratic either.

  15. Omar Kuddus 19 Dec 2007, 1:00pm

    We seem to be diverting from what is important. It’s not a question of which religion is right or wrong, but the protest to stop the persecution, torture and killing of fellow homosexuals, in Islamic States.For it is them that need our help and support, as if we in the west don’t make a fuss and have ourselves heard loud and clear that such behaviour is unacceptable then, are we not abandoning fellow homosexuals and letting Religion based atrocities take control.Ok, lets get something straight, I am not defending the torture, persecution and state sanctioned of murder by any Islamic State, in the name of Islam.What unfortunately happens and as I said, clerics, interpretation and their the teachings of how and what is said in the Koran differs as they see fit and normally to their own agendas and personal beliefs.This happens in ALL religions.One of the most fundamental mistakes one makes when dealing with Islam and its teachings is that the Koran, which is the actual book and rules for living life as a Muslim is confused with the Hadis, the life and ways of the Profit Mohammad.Apostasy in Islam is commonly defined as the rejection of Islam in word or deed by a person who has been a Muslim.It is true that All five major schools of Islamic jurisprudence agree that a sane male apostate must be executed. But then that is againopen to interpertration and personal peoples/ clerics understandings.The Islamic laws governing apostasy are derived from the traditions (ahadith). According to Wael Hallaq nothing of the apostasy law are derived from the Qur’an, although the jurist Al-Shafi’i interpreted the Quranic verse [Qur'an 2:217] as providing the main evidence for apostasy being a capital crime in Islam. Christianity in the medieval ages was no different, from burning /drowning suspected witches to the Crusades where religion was to be enforced upon the “unbelievers” and numerous crimes committed in the name of Religion.Luke, in the meantime, Islamic clerics may be openly calling for our death with impunity, but until we in the West open our mouths and protest and complain, no one seems or will hear our cries and disgust and do anything about it.It only takes one voice, which soon can turn into a mummer, into a cry and finally into a scream, that has to be listed and paid heed to.

  16. Although I firmly believe that all religious faith is a mental illness, I also hold the view that some religions are much more tolerant and accepting than others – The Society of Friends (Quakers) is a good example of a non-judgmental religious group.

  17. Robert, ex-pat Brit 19 Dec 2007, 9:16pm

    Neville, the Quakers are a good group though they oppose equality for the LGBT community. However, in the U.S., the United Church of Christ which has over 2 million active members does support full equality including marriage. I know of no other non-gay denominations that do. Barack Obama who is running for the presidency on the democratic ticket interestingly is a member of this church though he’s not quite there on the full equality issue just yet but supports civil unions thus far.

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