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Dead parents better than gay ones says Romney

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  1. Romney merely emphasizes the fact that religious faith is a mental illness,

  2. Charlotte 2 Nov 2007, 6:48pm

    I’m from Massachusetts fought against Mitler Romney for over 4 years. It doesn’t surprise me what he says I just hope America wises up to him before we have more trouble in this country then we already have! Check out our trailer on Gay Marriage. I know Romney’s people have. Produced to educate defuse the controversy it has a way of opening closed minds like his creates an interesting spin on the situation: http://www.OUTTAKEonline.com

  3. Quite so Neville.I like the following definition of faith that appeared in the New York Times some years back:”Faith may be defined as an illogical belief in the occurence of the improbable. A man of faith is one who has lost, or never had, the capacity for clear and realistic thought. He is nor merely an ass – he is actually ill”.

  4. To learn how Massachusetts became the first US state to marry same-sex couples, despite former Governor Romney’s opposition, check out Courting Equality: A Documentary History of America’s First Legal Same-Sex Marriages (Beacon, 2007). You’ll love the pictures, and the stories–available on Amazon. More info: http://www.courtingequality.com

  5. Brett Logan 5 Nov 2007, 8:13pm

    Mormons do not beleive that homosexuality, and homosexual desire, are sinful; they beleive that acting on those desires are sinful. I understand that it means nearly the same thing; nevertheless there is still a difference which is misleading and makes me wonder what is valid in this story.

  6. The mormon church isn’t sure what it believes the religious texts are updated with astonishing frequency to omit some racist and bigoted references and make the religion more middle ground, to keep numbers up.

  7. Neville, you say “religious faithis a mental illnessContrary to what atheists often imply, many great scientists in history were not irreligious or even just nominally religious but had an active Christian faith. On the other hand, practically all of them believed that science should be done by observation, and independently of biblical interpretation. In this latter issue they differed from the modern “young earth creationists” who list them as “believing the Bible” on web sites like . These great scientists were not ‘biblical literalists’ in the modern sense. They were generally sincere, bible-believing Christians but they neither took their bible “literally” eg on the creation accounts, nor derived their science from it.Some of the earliest stirrings of science came in the 13th century Oxford Franciscan monks (like Occam) and the continental Catholic scholastics (like Aquinas). The Franciscans were not “nominal Christians” but active in faith and often in a Christ-like concern for the poor. Active Christians have then been at the forefront of virtually all the different sciences.Francis Bacon (1561-1626) became hugely influential regarding the scientific method, and Puritans like John Wilkins (1614-1672), who developed his ideas, were largely behind the Royal Society. Key early members of this included Robert Boyle(1627-1691) who wrote a key book The Skeptical Chemist which demolished alchemy, discovered the gas laws, co-discovered phosphorous, invented the match, measured the density of air, first to distinguish acids/bases/neutral substances, introduced the litmus test, etc. He also learned Greek and Hebrew to read the bible better because his faith was so important to him. In biology, Boyles associate the devout Christian John Ray (1627-1705) did the foundational work in species classification, that was developed into our modern system by the Christian Carl Linnaeus(1707-177 Professor of Medicine and also Botany at Uppsala (Sweden). Devout Anglican Richard Owen (1804-1892) coined the word ‘dinosaur’, established the Natural History Museum, and was the greatest comparative anatomist of the age. The work in biology continued eg with the evangelical Harvard botanist Asa Gray (1810-188, who was Darwin’s first American confident and supporter. Ironically, two of the key Darwinists the atheist Richard Dawkins identifies in the twentieth century were David Lack (1910-1973) who became a Christian in his late 20’s, and R A Fisher (1890-1962) who regularly preached in his Cambridge college chapel. In genetics, of course, whilst Darwin’s sceptical cousin Francis Galton was pronouncing that the “priestly mind was not conducive to science” the breakthrough in his chosen area of genetics was being made by an Austrian Monk Gregor Mendel (1822-1884). In medicine, devout Christians Louis Pasteur (1822-1895) was a renowned chemist, bacteriologist, invented vaccination, pasteurization, sterilization immunization, whilst Joseph Lister (1827-1912) developed antiseptic surgery.In astronomy, the Franciscan Roger Bacon (who developed scientific method) developed the model of Ptolemy with a static but small and spherical earth in a large universe. Tycho Brahe (1546-1601) was a devout Lutheran who pioneered really accurate astronomical observation, recorded the first new star in detail and made the first complete study of a comet. His younger associate, Johann Kepler (1571-1630), one of the very greatest scientists ever, was also a devout Lutheran. Kepler pioneered in optics , discovered the laws of planetary motion, invented the idea of gravity as action at a distance, contributed to the development of calculus – and invented science fiction on an imagined trip to the moon. The young British genius Jermiah Horrocks, who in 1649 first observed the transit of Venus, was a devout Puritan. Isaac Newton himself (1642-1726) was devoutly religious if unorthodox. William Herschel (1738-1822) who discovered the planet Uranus, began infer red astronomy, and started astrophysics was a believer, as was his astronomer son John Herschel (1792-1871). Astronomer Royals like George Biddell Airy, John Couch Adams, and leading figures like the Earl of Rosse were devout. William Huggins (1824-1910) who, with his wife, developed astrophysics was a Christian, and Professor E H Maunder (1851-192 the president of the British Astronomical Association (who continued the work into the twentieth century) was one of the few early Pentecostal Christians. The Big Bang idea came from a Belgian astronomer priest Georges Lemaitre (1894-1966). Even more recently, pulsars were found in 1967 by Quaker Jocelyn Bell and Nobel prizewinner Anthony Hewish, an active Anglican Christian who appears on this web site!.In maths and physics, Rene Descartes (1597-1650) (a devout Catholic who wanted his ideas to be adopted by the Jesuits) developed ideas of light, invented linera inertia, and made fundamental contributions to mathematics. Blaise Pascal (1623-1662) was a mathematician, hydrostatics and hydrodynamics pioneer, laid the foundations for conic sections, differential calculus probability theory, invented the barometer. Christian Huygens (1629-1695) was an astronomer, mathematician, and physicist, who introduced the pendulum clock, etc. Newton we already mentioned. In the nineteenth century the prominent physicists were: James Joule (1818-1889) George Stokes (1819-1903), Lord Kelvin (William Thomson) (1824-1907), David Brewster (1781-186, James Clerk Maxwell (1831-1879) and Lord Rayleigh (1842-1919) – all were unusually devout Christians. Michael Faraday (1791-1867), was one of the great physicist/chemists of all time who developed electricity etc, and someone to whom his Christian faith meant everything.In geology, the development of stratigraphical ideas was by the monk Nicholas Steno (1631-1686). Jean Deluc (1727-1817) coined the word ‘geology’. The real birth of modern geology in the nineteenth century owed much to the devout Protestant Georges Cuvier (1769-1832). Other figures were Rev William Buckland (1784-1856) at Oxford and at Cambridge the devout evangelical geologist Adam Sedgwick (1785-1873). Sedgwick mapped more of the geological strata than any other person, and modern geology has accepted his ideas of periodic geological catastrophes (rather than the denial of them by Charles Lyell – himself a nominal Christian vetted for Christian orthodoxy when appointed by University College London in 1831). Prominent American geologists included active Christians Benjamin Silliman (1779-1864) president of the Association of American Geologists etc, Edward Hitchcock (1793-1864), and James Dana (1813-1895) who succeeded Silliman at Yale, edited the American Journal of Science, was president of the Geological Society of America, president of the American Association for the Advancement of Science, etc.All these were sincere active Christians in times when many in their surrounding society were irreligious or disinterested. Often they were interested in understanding the physical world exactly because they believed it the Next time do your research beforemaking such a stupid statement

  8. Are these the family values that Republican leaders claim GLBT individuals are in need of? Who would ever wish a child to be without parents if there is love and care provided? Romney’s statement is just another way to promote hate, and sadly it not only promotes hate for Gays but self-hatred for children cared for by gay parents. What ever happened to unconditional love? I Cornithians 13:13 Love makes a family.

  9. Hankyou say these were scientists who were christian in an era that was indifferent or hostile to Xianity. You KNOW that isn’t true: the age of enlightenment was the turning point, and even then universities and the authorities supported Xianity.But it is irrational to believed something that is supernatural, please accept that your faith mustn’t interfere with rational laws.

  10. For Tina:You shouldn’t associate Mormonismwith Christianity – there’s avast fundamental difference.Romney is a Mormon and Mormonismis considered a cult by many Christian believers.It was founded in 1830 by Joseph Smithwho after he was murdered thechurch was taken over by BrighamYoung. Mormonism teaches that the universe isinhabited by many gods who producespiritual children.It believs that the god of our planetis thought to have once been a man on another planetIt teaches that Jesus, Lucifer andall other demons as well as mankindare actually all spriit brothersand sisters.These are just a few of the outlandishbeliefs of Mormonism and are discounted by those verses in thehistory of Christianity that holdsJesus Christ as Lord and Savior.So, don’t take anything Romneysays as a reflection of trueChristianity.

  11. To ApyrsChristianity has always been in theminority — perhaps many kings andleaders professed to follow Christianbeliefs but if you study them indepth you’ll find they only usedthe term Christianity in a superficial way. Even Hitler pronounced his Christian backgroundand belief — but who and what washis Christ in his Christianity. Itwas totally evil.You say it’s irrational to believesomething that is supernatural.They why was it that these greatscientists and leaders able toproduce some of the most rationalresults? Buy the way, who created rationallaws?c

  12. stallthedigger 7 Nov 2007, 11:19am

    @ Hank – Rational human beings did, using their evolved abilities in rational thought.Who invented gods?

  13. Hello STALLTHE DIGGER.I asked “who created rational laws?” You said, “rational human beings did, using their evolved abilities in rational thought.”You’ve only partially answered the question. Where did these ‘rational human beings’ get their education to use ‘their evolved abilities’ to expand their rational thought.Let’s just see where a large part of this ‘rational thought’ received its food for development.Bill Maher of ABC’s Politically Incorrect, said “America has never been a Christian nation.” He too was ignorant of many facts.As we read about the founding of our universities and the first text books that were used in this country, we cannot dispute our Christian foundation.106 or the first 108 college were stated on the Christian faith. By the close od 1860 there were 246 colleges in America. Seventeen of these were state institutioins, almost every other one was founded by Christian demoniminations or by individuals who avowed a religious purpose.HARVARD College – 2636 — An orginial Rule of Harvard “Let every student be plainly instructed and earnestly pressed to consider well, the main end of his life and STUDIES is, to know God and Jesus Christ, which is eternal life and therefore to lay Christ in the bottom, as the only foundation of all sound knowledge and learning.YALE University – 1701 was started by Congressional ministers “for liberal and religious education of suitable youth.PRINCETON -1746 Associated with the Great Awakening, it was founded bythe Presbyterians.U.PENNSYLVANIA 1751, DARTHMOUTH, 1770, BROWN U, started by the BaptistsAre you saying that all these greatcolleges and universities, basedon Holy Scripture as their foundation, turned out irrational thinking and irrationally educated students?Come on man, Christian thinking has produced some of our greatest leaders.

  14. William - Dublin 8 Nov 2007, 10:43pm

    “Christian thinking has produced some of our greatest leaders.”Hank, bear in mind Christian “thinking” has also tried to burn and silence our greatest minds. Book burnings are very much your domain. We would be living on a flat earth with people like you running around torching innocent people if it wasn’t for enlightened scientists who could see past the hateful and insular christian mumbo-jumbo.Your logic is flawed because your biased in thinking that all things “Christian” MUST be good. Its not. An open mind could see that. I’m not saying we should deny our heritage and our past, but only a fool lives in the past and refuses to be open to change.Forgive me for not accepting the religious convictions of a “ex-gay” on a gay site as fact. An ex-ay as yourself has no credibility here, not matter what they quote.So, enlighten us all here, Hank. Forget your babbling about god and how persecuted you are by us “blind gays”, and tell us finally, why did you feel a need to “convert” to heterosexuality? Family disown you? Didn’t fit in? Not a strong enough mind? Come on, lets hear it.

  15. Hey William – Dublin.Glad to hear from you and I’d like to discuss some points you brought up.I said “Christian thinking has produced some of our greatest leaders.” What bothers you about that statement — it’s a fact that open minded people accept.You said my logic is flawed…in thinking that all things “Christian” MUST be good. When did I ever say anything to that effect? You try to read things into my belief system that I never said, and that I don’t believe, anyway.You say Christian “thinking” has also tried to burn and silence our greatest minds. Apparently you don’t know the difference between Christianity and a relationship with Jesus Christ — it’s a world apart and you shouldn’t confuse them. I am a follower of Jesus Christ, which many Christians are not!You say ….we should not deny our heritage and our past, but only a fool lives in the past. If you don’t learn from the past, you’re doomed to make the same mistakes.If you want more modern day examples of great Christians contributing to our society — there are hundreds. I’ll only give you a few.WERNHER VON BRAUN 1912-1977. He has the prestige of actully taking mankind from the simple beginnings of rocketry all the way to the moon and planets. When he spoke of the unknown and unknowable vastness of Creation, his thoughts went to the cetainty that the universe came from no cosmic accident, but from the thought and prupose of an all-knowing God.JAMES IRWIN 1930 – 1991, One of the few men who got to ride on top of one of his behemoth Saturn V rockets — Apollo 15, and but one of the 12 people in history who has walked on the moon. During his exploration, when he looked down at the earth his thoughts were that seeing all this has to change a man, has to make a man appreciate the Creation of God and the love of God.Dr. A.E. WILDER-SMITH 1915-1995,Much of the literature coming out of the modern intelligent design movement contains echoes of powerful arguments made by Dr. Smith, and he brought out the importance of DNA that totally discounted Thomas Huxley’s naturalistic evolultion as unscientific and that creationism was scientific.DR. RAYOND V.DANADIAN 1936 – He invented the MRI scanner presently used for diagnosing a serious disease.DR. GEORGE WASHINGTON CARVER 1864-1943. His work in agriculture opened all types of fruit and vegetable growth and usage. He invented 35 products from the peanut, and 118 products from the sweet potato. He became the father of a new branch of applied science called agricultural chemistry or “chemurgy. As a servant of God, he felt the Creator should have the credit for putting allhis richness into plants He had made.Finally, what is this “ex-gay” obsession homosexuals keep bringing up? Are you hung up with giving a sexual label on anybody who’s not homosexual? You think everybody who’s not homosexual is “ex-gay?”When you live as a homosexual you automatically become “Christphobics” and cannot look at any other meaningful life. You’re losing out on a wonderful part of a joyful life.

  16. Robert, ex-pat Brit 9 Nov 2007, 1:13pm

    William, well said. Ex-gay is about self-loathing and a desire to fit in with the rest of straight society. These people are usually republicans (in the U.S.), people who vote for and support antigay legislation, politicians and constituents alike. They’ve also hijacked religion and twisted it beyond distortion since they have never proved anything in the form of scientifically controlled experiments and have never published any of their trials/experiments in the legitimate scientific or medical literature. Until they can also prove that one can be converted to a gay orientation by their methods, they will remain nothing more than charlatans whose sole purpose is not for the conversion of gay people to a straight orientation, but to extract their hard earned money. The biggest con game of all.

  17. Willaim - Dublin 9 Nov 2007, 10:16pm

    Hank, cut the crap, and just answer the bloody question. Why are you “ex-gay”? Explain this (minus your feeble attempts to “prove” religion), and I might have some semblance of respect for your point of view.Oh, and by the way, if you truly a follower of Jesus, then you’ll appreciate Jesus NEVER condemned homosexuality… in fact, what he did condemn was intolerance. Something you feel a need to do to make you feel better in some fashion. Actually, its more probable than not that Jesus was gay himself, a lot of modern historical thinking on a “single” 33 year old in 1st century Israel would point to that logical conclusion. Hmmm. To think when you “were” gay, you were more like Jesus then you are now… you effectively turned your back on him. Interesting point of view, isn’t it?Also, I’m not even going to lower my IQ to that of a tennis ball to address the utter nonsense that is your comment “that creationism was scientific”. We’ll just let that pass as a momentary bout of stupidity and insanity on your part, shall we?So, go. Answer the question. Share your experiences, detail your “ex-gay” experiences and lets see what you are truly made of…. …or are you another of those fucking cowards who likes to think he’s smart with daft quotes about creationism but has fuck all else to offer but the ex-hay programming. My washing machine can be programmed too, it doesn’t mean its smart.So, which are you?P.S. Thanks for the comments Robert!

  18. Hello William – Dublin.Nice hearing from you again. I’d like us to discuss some important issues and questions more.First, I can sense your anger, rage and hate in your writing . I’m sorry for you in that respect because you can’t enjoy life as it was meant to be when a person has Jesus Christ as his Lord and Savior, as I do. I’ll pray for you.While Jesus might never had His words recorded in the Holy Bible as condemming homosexuality in specific words, he only had 3 years of adult life to cover a multitude of problems, ills and sins of mankind. And I don’t believe that for Him homosexuality was the greatest sin to have forgiven for mankind. There were many topics Jesus might not have addressed directly such as: euthasnasia, suicide, sex education, drug abuse, pronography, gambling, etc. and so many other sins and ills of society — but I’m certain I know where He stood on these typs of issues from what His disciples said during their lives.Jesus’ greatest teachings were to show that mankind as sinners who needed forgivness, and acceptibg His words and actions so they could enter His Kingdom and be with Him forever in eternity — and not be condemmed to suffer in hell for all eternity. Many listened to Him and were saved from destruction, while many rejected Him and continued their sins and chose eternal damnation.Why do you think Jesus took on His followers? To spread His teachings afer He was crucified. They had many years to preach to the world everything Jesus had taught them. That’s why the Holy Bible includes much more of what His disciples said, than what Jesus had time to say (He was only one individual).Again, homosexuals continue to try to label Jesus as homosexual — all without a trace of evidence. Because He was a pure man — perhaps tempted like us because He did feel things as did mankind while He was on earth. But He was Perfect and committed no sin –ever. So your argument is prejudiced and even ludicrous because you’re trying to justify your lifestyle — you made a choice, and rather than seeing it for what it is and changing it you continue in it.Your “logic” that a single 33 year old in first century Israel would point that He was “gay”. Well you may as well accuse all of His disciples of being “gay” because they all fit the same profile — don’tmake such a stupid remark that Jesuswas homosexual.Homosexuality is a sin — no question, as it’s discussed in Genesis about Sodom and its destruction. In Leviticus where “A man lies with man as one lies with a woman, both of them doing what is destestable.”In Romans, Corinthians, and 1 Timothy, “Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abondoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.”Well William – Dublin, I hope that gives you a view on my standing with Jesus Christ and how I am not, and never was attracted to the homosexual lifestyle. I appreciate females too much to join your group, be it homosexaul or ex-gayI’m ending this now before it gets too lengthy. But I have to take your comment about “lowering IQ to that of a tennis ball…regarding creationsism was scientific,” as a challenge.I’ve got some things I want to discuss with you about your evolutionistic beliefs and mycreationism. You’ll hear from me in my next message.I’m not checking this msssage for misspellings, etc. so forgive anythingthat doesn’t read well.Sleep wellHank

  19. Hi William — DublinI’m back!It’s late and I’m in the mood to discuss another important issue.Since you are an atheist and evolutionist believer, I’d like to pass on my argument for creationism and not some sort of chance beginnings for existence of the world and mankind.Evolution is merely a hypothesis, and one with an incresing number of holes in its foundational logic. In fact, scientists slowly are coming to realize that life — even at the level of a single cell –is far too complex to have evolved.Dr. Francis Crick, (who is not thought to be Christian) is credited (along with Dr. James Watson) with the discovery of DNA. This is the most complex molecule that has ever been discovered.Dr. Crick, who won the Noble Prize for his discovery of DNA, decided to ascertain the probabilities of such a complex molecule’s coming into existence by he law of chance, which governs evolutionary theory. Remember,when Charles Darwin, who gave birth to the idea of evolution one hundred years ago, was operating under the assumption that the simple cell was really simple. The cell is so complex, in fact, that one evolutionary scientist said that any machine man has made, or ever will make, will never compare in complexity. That’s quite a statement, given computers that can process several million bits of information in a second or two.Crick began a probability test, “What are the probabilities of a single molecule of DNA coming into existence by chance? His conclusion: 0:0 percent chance, even considering the supposed 4 million year history of the earth.Crick said the idea that various amino acids in the ocean got together in primordial slime and somehow formed a single cell was preposterous.Consider that the average human body is comprised of 30 trillion cells, you can’t begin figure how much informaion is stored in each cell.The genetic information contained in each cell of the human body is roughtly equivalent to a library of 4,000 volumes, and if we multiply that by 30 trillion, we can begin to appreciate the complexity of a single human cell.Sir Fred Hoyle, a professor at Cambridge and one of the leading astronomers and scientists of our time, decided to test the laws of probability evern further. He wanted to find out the probabilty of just one cell — not just one strand of DNA — coming into existence by chance.He even started his calculation with the supposed age of the universe — 15, to 20 billion years, rather than the supposed age of the ear th or 4 billion years.Hoyle worked with another world-famous mathematician and astro-physist, Chandra Wickramasinge, to calculate the probabilites. These two great mathematical minds came up with this number of years for just one single cell to come into existence by chance: 10 to 40,000th power yearsOne noted Swiss mathematician < Lecomte duNouy, said that any number in which the probabilites were greater than 10 to the 50th power, would simply never happen, even cosmically.Wickramasinghe states: “Living systems could not have been generated by random processes, within a finite time-scale, in a finite universe.”Hoyle and Wickraamasinge, in fact, rejected evolution as the source of life. Instead they said that for any kind of life to exist anywhere in the universe, it must be there by the hand of an eternally existent being of infinite power, which, if you desire to, you may call God.Hoyle, once an atheist, became a beliver of God. What other logical conclusion could he have come to?Unfortunately, many millions of young people, sitting in our educational institutions have been lied to and told that cells formed by mere chance. Just place a couple of amino acids together, toss them into a primordial slime, throw in some lightning or something, and PRESTO, Instant life, instant cells, Such hypotheses show to what extent people (atheists) will go to explain away the existence of God.There you have it William — Dublin.What do you base your belief inevolution now? Do you have strongerproof of creation and life?Again forgive any misspellings, etc.it’s getting time to go to bed andthere’s a lot to re-read and try to catch errors.Sleep well,Hank

  20. Robert, ex-pat Brit 10 Nov 2007, 1:17pm

    Hank, your quotes from Leviticus and Corinthians et al are just as arguable as those quotes that allow men to kill their wives on the grounds of adultery or even their children; that men should be apart from their wives during menstruation and never touch them; that the eating of shellfish is forbidden as is adultery; the plucking out of one’s eye if something offends it or the chopping off of one’s hands; not wearing fabric of more than one thread, no shaving of beards; brothers not being allowed to marry their brothers’ widows; men must look away when a woman is walking towards them…the list is endless. How do you justify all of that and why aren’t the majority of socalled christians like you living by those references? Let who is without sin cast the first stone! You and your rabble are nothing but a bunch of self-serving hypocrites and bigots. Its pretty transparent what you and your kind do, you cherry pick only those references based on one arguable quote in Leviticus, because the rest of the other derogatory references aimed at socalled straights such as yourself make you uncomfortable and are not convenient to your way of living. For the sake of argument, what if Jesus were gay, what would you do? What about all those missing parts of scripture that the Vatican refuses to release on the world, some of which are believed to be contrary to what our understanding of the current version of the bible is and what were originally intended to be included in the bible? Why are they so afraid to open them up?

  21. Robert, ex-pat Brit 10 Nov 2007, 1:20pm

    William, you’re more than welcome! These people actually believe that the world is only 6,000 years old, can you imagine and probably believe its still flat?As I said in another post, let the ex-gay movement prove that they can convert a straight person to a gay orientation first. The fact of the matter is, they can’t. Most of the frauds never marry and never have intimacy with the opposite sex. They claim they’ve converted thousands of them, yet they can never provide any of the statistics and the evidence. I’ve yet to see a controlled study published in any of the literature either.

  22. Hey RobertGlad to hear from you. Your comments have been heard many times before. But you show me in the New Testament that Jesus Christ advocated any of those Old Testament actions you pointed out. Neither He nor His disciples adhered to those Old Testament actions. When Jesus came to earth He proclamed Love, Confession of sin, Redemption,and living a Reformed life following Jesus’ teachings. He came with a new message — that He was the Savior prophesied in the Old Testament — that He came to save the sinners by offering His blood to cover mankind’s sins. Many who heard Him hated him because He showed them their sins. Today that hatred lives in Christphobia throughout the world. All sinners hate Jesus — they prefer darkness to the light He showed.You make an absurd statement — what if Jesus was gay. What are you trying to say? That’s like saying Jesus ever sinned. He was perfect in everything He did and said. You’re just trying to justify the legitimacy of homosexuality — you can’t it’s as sinful as adultery, abortion.anger, blasphemy, cheating,hypocrasy, pride, sodomy, vanity and witchcraft. to give you an idea of the vastness of sins. Homosexuality is just another in the list.The Vatican is not thought to be a true Christian religion by those following Jesus. The Vatican is more a cult than Christian. The Pope is not Christain, their worship of Mary is non-biblical, their purgatory belief is not found in the Bible,their repetition of praayers for forgiveness is anti-Chritian, theykneel to idols and pray to saints.This is not Christianity. Only the strict following of Jesus Christ can save a person from hell.As far as the ex-gay movement, I don’t know anything about it except from some brief things I’ve read about it.The apostle Paul, before he met Jesus and was re-born, he was the greatest of sinners — a mass murderer who hated, persecuted and killed followers of Jesus — whenever he could. But he changed totally after his encounter with Jesus and became the greatest Apostle — preaching the words of Jesus.So, if such an evil person as Paul was, a homosexual can change also. But it must come through Jesus, He alone is the key to change. The answeris not going from homosexuality activity to straight sex, but becomming straight mentally, emotionally and physically without sexual involvement.A homosexual can only be changed through his own free choice to decide that God’s design for allpeople is right, and brings true happiness. As sure as a mass murderer can become one who loves and protects life, so can the homosexual be freed by Jesus.Everybody want’s to believe such nonsense as Dan Brown’s The DaVinci Code, but they’re afraid to read the Holy Bible and see what the truth is.I’ll address the question of the earth’s age in a forthcoming message.But I havent’ seen any logical answer to how evolutions counter the argument that the probability findings I quoted earlier that living systems could not been generated by random process.How does an evolutionist find faith that his system is scientific? You talk about spriitual faith — we have a greater foundation to build our belief system on the written Holy Bible — I’d like to show how I can counter any argument you present with just as much validity as you supposedly present as facts. In 20 years or so, evolution theory will be forced into the same category as Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny. A growing hypothesis is Intelligent Design, which I’d like to discuss later.I didn’t check the spelling, so overlook any misspellings, etc.Sleep well Robert,Hank

  23. Robert W. Pierce 10 Nov 2007, 10:02pm

    Hank, you can say what you want, you’ll NEVER convince any of us. Ex-gay’s are still gay, never straight. One or two may stop having gay sex, but they never become straight, nor can a straight man become gay and nobody can convert either way. Its called brainwashing for a quick buck/pound or euro.As for the old testament, I really don’t care if you reject it because it doesn’t fit in with your comfort zone. The fact of the matter is, religious nutters like you use the old testament to denigrate gay people, people like Jerry Fallwell, the fat pig and may he rot into enternity; Pat Robertson, Lon Mabon, Don Wildmon, Joel Osteen, James Dobson, Fred Phelps et al. They use Leviticus with impunity to promote an antigay agenda to deny equal rights and protections under the law while doing the opposite of what they espouse. You evangelical christians are notorious for your cherry picking of scripture to suit your own ends. None of you are christians, but judgmental, hypocrites, liars and bigots. You’re all a bunch of frightened, insecure, screwed up, sexually repressed morons. You should get your own house in order first and go save your fellow believers, they have much to answer for, ergo the hatred, violence and intolerance they’ve inflicted on societies and gay people everywhere on this planet.

  24. Hello Robert:Your last comment has a number of mistakes that I want to clarify, whether you believe them or not, they’re part of understanding homosexuality.Is there a biological cause or causes for homosexuality? The answer is not as simple as homosexual acivists would have us believe. Therefore it’s impossible to provide a single cause for homosexuality. There’s no such thing as a “typical homosexual,” and it’s doubtful we’d ever find a single causal factor for homosexuality. Physiological, psychological, enviornmental all play a par t.For years scientists have been looking for biological causes for homosexuality. Finding such a factor (e.g. hormones or a gay gene) would give credence “I was born this way.”Much research on early family lives of homosexuals come up that in the parent-child interactions of adult homosexuals, the subject’s relationship with the parent of the same sex was unsatisfactory, ranging from a distant nonintimate relationship, to an outright hostile one.Another factor is early childhood sexual experience. Many homosexuals cite backgrounds of being sexually molested or having had sexual experiences early in their childhood.Do you have any information that the above factors don’t contribute to homosexuality? If so, I’d like to know your sources, not just your reaction that it’s homphobic b.s. You keep reciting Biblical scripture, but you never discuss the relationship that Jesus Christ offers to sinners — to have them read, understand, and accept his teachings about the sinfulness of mankind and how one can overcome sin and find redemption and salvation.Unfortunately you don’t understand Jesus Christ — you merely look at man’s teaching of so-called Christianity. When mankind want’s to do his own will and exercise his worldy choices, you’re acting outsideof God’s plan for joyful living.Whether you’re an adulterer, a thief,a murderer, a drug abuser, a rapist, a gambler, a pornographer, a hypocrite, or a homosexual — God looks at all of that as sin — and everyone has the ability to turn away from their sin and accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior and live a life that will take you to heaven, and not to hell. As long as you hate Jesus Christ ( a Christphobic) you’ll never be happy, as your comments reflect – a very unhappy individual, but you don’t have to be — Jesus Christ can save you from your unhappiness and give you a new joyful life.Why do you hate Jesus Christ so much?Sleep well,Hank

  25. Sister Mary Clarence 11 Nov 2007, 11:58am

    Hank – “don’t believe that for Him homosexuality was the greatest sin to have forgiven for mankind.” Indeed it was not.Adultery and adulterer are mentioned 47 in the King James version of the Bible and therefore it could be expected that other sins would be mentioned a similar number of times in the Bible following normal sanity protocols. Condemnation of liars/lying occurs over 70 times, murder is condemned over 35 times and stealing is condemned over 70 times also. Homosexuality, in the common terms used in those times is not mentioned once. The scarcity of mentions on homosexuality means that the sanity test failsOn the very few occasions that homosexuality is purportedly mentioned there is a viable alternative meaning that could be given to the wording. For example ‘arsenokoitai’ is taken is to refer to homosexuality in places yet it in Timothy and Corinthians it is also used to describe Adam having sex with the serpent God Naas, which one would hope you would agree is more akin to bestiality than homosexuality.As time moves on our understanding of history and the ancient languages used in the time of Christ improve. Ancient treasures are uncovered that give us further insight and better understanding. The word of God has been interpreted by man and man is fallible. The church has set its stall on homosexuality based on the best translations available at the time. Having been so staunchly opposed to homosexuality for so long it is an all but impossible feat to now accept that a mistake has been made. It would rock the very foundations of Christianity and would lead many to questioning the authenticity of the entire faith.Your views are the product of errors made by others many years ago, which we cannot, to be fair to you, hold you responsible for. However you are clearly clever enough to post articulate and well referenced arguments to those who hold opposing views to yours (as no doubt you will do to mine). I can only hope that one day you can find the time to read more about the biblical texts in question before they were translated into our own language.Through a sense of alienation and persecution may gay people have no fondness for the church, as you have seen here. However they are many who would wish to receive the same comfort and support from the church that you do. The position that you and others hold only serves to deny them that same comfort and support.

  26. Robert, ex-pat Brit 11 Nov 2007, 1:31pm

    Hank, you said I hate Jesus, I didn’t. Furthermore, I’m not a believer but that doesn’t mean I hate anyone. Your words not mine, my my, how you rush to judgment too!You NEVER answered my question regarging Jesus being gay. I didn’t way he was either, but if he were, what would you do and what would you then believe in? You can’t answer it, you refuse to for obvious reasons. You bigots claim you believe in scripture, well, ho hum, that means you believe in all of it. Either you do or you don’t, all or nothing. You can’t pick and choose which parts you accept or don’t accept.As to the causes of a gay orientation, you should look at Simon LeVay’s brilliant work on the causation or sexual orientation. We do NOT CHOOSE our orientation. As for you preposterous contention that it is caused by environmental issues in relation to family upbringing, I came from a loving mother and father who loved me unconditionally. They didn’t think there was anything wrong with me. Both were always around. I was an avid sports enthusiast in school, played for the school football team, popular with girls and boys alike; accompanied my father to football games in my formative years, cricket, rugby, you name it. In fact I spent more time with him than I did my mother. So cut the crap and outdated statements about an absentee parent. How do you explain the fact that the majority of children in one parent families don’t happen to have a gay orientation when they grow up. Explain that for us please. You’re an idiot and probably a deeply closeted gay man who can’t get a date. Get a life, grow up and move on, accept who you are, the way your socalled creator wanted you to be. Spend your wasted energy on us by helping your fellow straight sinners for a change, they have a monopoly on it.

  27. Robert, ex-pat Brit 11 Nov 2007, 1:40pm

    “Having been so staunchly opposed to homosexuality for so long it is an all but impossible feat to now accept that a mistake has been made. It would rock the very foundations of Christianity and would lead many to questioning the authenticity of the entire faith.”Sister Mary, thank you for that. I believe that statement goes directly to the reasons why the Vatican refuses to open its library doors for all, to read manuscripts that were at one time considered for inclusion in the bible but were considered unsuitable and unacceptable turning the faith entirely on its head. Many bibilical scholars of all faiths have challenged the Vatican to release the manuscripts, but it refuses. It does make you wonder what it is that terrifies them so much.

  28. Hey Sister Mary Claarence andRobert ex-pat Brit..Thanks for your comments — love them!I have to be gone for most of the afternoon so I can’t respond to them.Don’t want you to think I ignoring them because I don’t have answers.Hope you can HANDLE THE TRUTH –because it’s ocming your way shortly.Sleep well,Hank

  29. Robert, ex-pat Brit 11 Nov 2007, 4:33pm

    Hank, get a life! What is a socalled straight ooops, deeply conflicted ex-gay troll coming to a gay website for anyway? Prurient interest, or is it that you just can’t stay away from the men perhaps? I find it quite revealing that a socalled christian has such an obsession with gay sexuality and gay sex in general that he or she has to come here to waste valuable time and energy. Or were you payed by one of those right wing religious or ex-gay organisations to act as their shill to incite? You can rant and rave your religious mumbo jumbo all you want, you’ll not succeed in convincing or converting any of us. You may delude yourself into thinking your straight, but you’re not, you are so transparent. If you were that comfortable being “straight”, you wouldn’t be here wasting your time and energy, you’d be out looking for a hot date assuming you can get one. When was your last one by the way, what was he or she like? You’re the one that can’t accept the truth. We already know ours. YOU’RE GAY, get over it and deal with it!

  30. William - Dublin 11 Nov 2007, 6:04pm

    “Many homosexuals cite backgrounds of being sexually molested or having had sexual experiences early in their childhood.”Oh. My. God. Where the hell did you get THIS nonsense from? You are a complete fool if you believe this! Perhaps you are a fool, I always miss that possibility in people personally. Are you drunk, or taking drugs or something? Diminished capacity? You truly are a pathetic individual.And still can’t answer a direct question on the ex-gay, can you.Nor can you find a DIRECT quote from Jesus on homosexuality. That’s because you never will. Just flapping around the issues, aren’t you, and when you argument falters, you insult us like above. A stupid and small insult with.I hold nothing you say as true, accurate, or reliable when you cannot address a simple matter like why you are ex-gay.As for Jesus being gay. I never said he was. I just said there are many hypothesis to that effect from historians. Seemed to upset you didn’t it, Jesus being gay? Well, I choose to believe he was. In fact, as this religion is all such unproven nonsense, I can believe he was a pink talking cow, and there is simply not one shred of proof you can produce to counter that claim. Not one. So, upsAnd basically, ALL your arguments are flawed for one reason alone:- you are biased and bigoted. Hence closed minded and prone to listening to what you WANT to hear instead of what is a valid argument.And you refer to MY anger? ha ha! You’re kidding, ar4n’tt you? What anger was inside you to make you “convert” to straight? Ah, yes. Still prefer not to address that, eh? Ex-gay… yeah right. everything you have said so far only convinces me more that you are a small man who hadn’t the stomach or strength of character to be what you were! And that, my dear Hank, only warrants pity from us.

  31. “I have to be gone for most of the afternoon so I can’t respond to them.”Probably cruising the local toilets or stalking a darkroom. Once a queer, always a queer. Or maybe “you cant handle the truth”… duh.

  32. Hello Sister Mary Clarence:OK, I’m back. Had a nice afternoon of fishing and enjoying the Florida sun and fresh air.I’m glad that your comments and attitude were different from all others who curse me, accuse me of being homophobic (I’m not), and only give opinions without any substance to back anything up that I’ve offered.You either accept Jesus and his teachings and love him for his offer of forgiveness and salvation or you reject him and hate him for calling you a sinner and doomed for eternal hell. There is no middle area when it comes to heaven or hell. Everyone must make their choice before they come before Christ’s judgment takes place. You say “homosexuality…is not mentioned once…The scarcity of mentions on homosexuality means that the sanity test fails.” Which principle of philosophy or ethics states that conclustion?Word count is not the sole criterion for determining the meaning of words. And even if a statistical count should be used, the argument backfires. Of the 12 times the word “to know” is used in the Book of Genesis, it means “to have sexual intercourse with” in 10 of the 12 occurrences. Just because Jesus didn’t talk about homosexuality, doesn’t mean it wasn’t a sin. How often did he talk about suicide, abortion, apostacy, arrogance, blasphemy, child abuse, cursing, drug abuse, gambling, greed, gossip,idolatry, jealousy, lying, pornography, rape, rebellion, sado-masochism, unforgieness, violence, witchcraft, and thousands of other sinnful behavior.You cannot justify the lack of mention of a sin by Jesus that it was not a sin — that’s the reason he had his followers, who were guided by God to expand on the words and thoughts of Jesus and they could discuss these topics as they circulated thoughout the world — giving the Truth to sinners so they could stop sinning and become “born-again” and enter the Kingdom of God for eternity.You talked about the differing meanings of words throughout the years. I agree,amd that’s why words cannot be taken out of context to prove a point. Look how wrong it would be to use a word alone, just in recent years of our language.Changes in words:Today Original meaningawful deserving of awebrave cowardice (as in bravado)counterfiet legitimate copycute bow-leggedguess take aimbuxury sinful self indulgencenusiance injury, harmquick alivesophisticated corruptedtruant beggersilly blessed or happySo with all the possibility of error, I don’t agree with your explanation of “arsenokoitai” in your usage.As a quick example, the first reference to homosexuality in the Bible is in Genesis 18. Lot entertained two angels who came to his city to investigate its sins. The men of the city from every part of the city surrounded Lot’s house and ordered him to bring out the visitors so thata “we may know them.” The Hebrew word for “know” (yada’) means that the men of the city wanted to have sex with the visitors. Homoxexual advocates argue that the men merely wanted to meet these visitors. While yada’ appears over 900 times in the Old Testament, the problem with a non-sexual explanation is the context. If it was for getting acquainted, why would state, “I have two daughters who have not know a man, please let me bring them out to you, and you may do to them as you wish, only do nothing to these men….”Clearly this implies sexual intercourse and not “be acquainted with.”Jude 7, provides more commentary on Genesis 19. when it clearly states that the sin of Sodom involved “sexual immorality and perversion, which can imply homosexuality or even bestiality, and provides further evidence that the sin of Sodom was homosexulaity , not hospitality.For thousands of years, man has tried to discredit the Holy Bible (with so-called new discoveries of writings), but all to no avail. We believe, in fact, the Bible contains nothing less than the very words of God. Our faith — ourvey lives — are staked on the trustworthiness of the Holy Scriptures. People like yourself, try to justify some behavor that has been shown to be sinful — throughout the Bible — but still you look for justification instead of confession and redemption.But mankind does not want to listen to God — he wants to be “his own god” and do what he wants.This a pefect example of Lucifier’s original sinful behavior before God condemmed him to eternal punishment.If man want’s to be his own god, he can do it, but there will be a final judgment and then we’ll see who is God and who thought he was god!I don’t know how, where or when you became Sister, but I like titles, andthe followers of Jesus Christ are called saints, and since I’m a follower, I’d like to be called saint Hank (small s) in the future — fair enough?For Robert — I’ll write you soon — this one took more time than I realized.saint Hank

  33. “all others who curse me, accuse me of being homophobic (I’m not)”What a load of crap. You are not only homophobic, but bigoted, petty and clearly uneducated (I, and most others, don’t consider “bible school” edcuation!). Please, spout bible versus until you are blue in the face, but don’t assume we are all idiots.Quoting “scriptures” doesn’t make you sound clever, Hank, it makes you a shallow easily programmed moron. Answer the question put forward to you…. why are you ex-gay? We know you are, you have told us as much. Answer the question, you coward.

  34. “There is no middle area when it comes to heaven or hell”You’re right, there isn’t. Thats’ because there’s no such thing as heaven or hell, Hank. Stop your nonsense. Just because you say its so, doesn’t make it a reality.

  35. Hey Robert ex-par Brit:Finally got to your comments and it’s 9 p.m. in Florida.Did you not understand my comment that there is “no typical homosexual?” When you go ballistic about my comment that many homosexuals cite backgrounds of being sexually molested or having had sex experiences early in childhood. No I’m not a fool, not drunk or taking drugs, no diminished capacity, and not pathetic.But you show some intellectual ignorance when you disavow such fiindings by numerous psychologists, therapists and counselors. Check out the book “Male Homosexuality” by Dr. Richard Friedman, who found a high percentage of his adult homosexuals showed the person’s relationship with the parent of the same sex was unsatisfactory, ranging from a distant, nonintimate relationship to an outright hostile one.Psychologists have identified certain emotional needs everyone has. Homosexuals reprot that one or more of these emotional needs are unmet. Is it possible that homosexuals attempt to meet these legitimate needs by relating to same-sex presons in illegimate ways? These human needs are: a need for gender identify. Boys with gender identity problems do not feel masuline.The second need: is a healthy role model.Children learn what masculinity and femininity are by watching how this is modeled in the lives of those close to them. When the role models are missing, the cues and influences may be missing or mixed, thereby leading to a different sense of identity and sexual orientation.The third need is for same-sex bonding in a healthy way(parent, mentor, peers and friends of the same sex) Only after the need for bonding with the same sex has been fulfilled can relationships move on to the oppoosite sex. If a boy bonds with women to a much greater degree, they could have major problems that result in homosexual feelings.Homosexuals who need to find a rationale to their behavior, point to a study by Simon LeVay who argued that homosexuals and heterosexuals have notable differences in the structure of their brains of 41 cadavers (19 homosexual men, 16 heterosexual men and 6 heterosexual women.) There were too many inconsistencies in the hypothalamic region measurements to be accepted as totally valid and reliable.Also LeVay later had to admit he didn’t know the sexual orientation of some of the cadavers in the study. Some of those he identified as heterosexual had died from AIDS ( were they homosexual men in reality?)Finally, the potential for bias showed up when LeVay said he was driven to do this study after his homosexual lover died of AIDS. Later he admitted that if he failed to find a genetic cause for homosexualtiy he might walk away from science altogether. Later he did just that , moving to West Hollywood to open up a small, unaccredited “study center” focusing on homosexuality.About your comment that “what if Jesus was gay?” It’s an absurd thought but to go along with it for a theoretical view I ask you this.If Jesus was gay, were all of his 12 disciples gay? If they weren’t all gay did some of them ask Jesus, “why do you show such different feelings and behavior towards men than we do towards women?” They certainly would have questioned Jesus on such behavior if it existed, but there’s nothing of the sort insinuated by any of the disciples. How do you answer that?No I’m afraid homosexuals have a major problem trying to rationalize their lifestyle.I truly feel sorry for you (I’m not homopohobic), but I cannot overlook people living in sin and denying itWhen you say “Once gay, always gay” you do a huge disservice to those people who are unhappy with their homosexual lifestyle but are told they are doomed for a homosexual life.You are evil for creating that kind of hopelessness.The success rate for homosexual counseling varies, depending on the approaches and circumstances. William Masters and Virginia Johnson reported successful results in 71% of all cases after a 6 year follow up period. (Homosexuality in Perspective, BostonL Little, Brown, 1979)I think I understand why homosexuals keep bringing up the statement to someone like me, “You’re an ex-gay…or you’re gay and won’t admit it.” This is probaly your psychological defense mechanism working to give relieve guilt feelings that you’ve made a choice and don’t want to make a change and you want everyone else to be like you.Ultimately it’s Christ loving act of redemption that can free someone bound by the ropes of secual addition (heterosexual or homosexual). Some people experience no further homosexual temptations, but most struggle with the sexual temptations in the process of sanctificatioin.Your only hope is Jesus Christ, whether you believe it or not.

  36. So, Hank. Lets move away from the nonsense you spout. I call it nonsense, because, as an educated scientist, that’s what I think it is. You are quoting unfounded references from dubious sources. But I digress again, I wont argue with unfounded or scientifically dubious sources, lets move on.”This is probably your psychological defence mechanism working to give relieve guilt feelings that you’ve made a choice “This is a cop out statement. Actually, it more probable that the majority of gay people are not as weak as you, and this is you trying to rationalise a response you reject. Do you believe that there are “homosexuals” who, like me, WILL NOT change who we are, as we KNOW we are born gay? Probably not, but we ARE the majority, and we always will be!”About your comment that “what if Jesus was gay?”Why can you not accept that? Afraid that Jesus is more like us than you think? You are aware, I’m sure, that there were not 4 gospels, but at least 26 original gospels. Many of these other gospels, rejected by the Vatican as “non-canonical” cite references to Jesus loving one disciples above all else… its no wonder they rejected them!!! And I don’t think they were referring to his “buddy” either! That aside, Jesus did preach against intolerance, injustice and bigotry. Of this I’m sure you ARE aware. How to you rationalise this with your persecution of gays? And yes, it is persecution. Don’t fool yourself to think you are any better than a KKK member. And with the revelation that you are living in Florida, I’d be surprised if you’re not a member of THAT band of nuts either. No better way to spend a Friday night then a bottle of Coors and a pick-up truck chasing those coons and queers, eh, Hank? Indeed.It is I who think you have “sinned”, Hank. The sin of ignorance is the greatest sin of all. And it is pretty clear now that you ARE an “ex-gay” after all, one who is unable to even discuss the reasoning behind such a drastic and ultimately futile “procedure”… I can promise you this:- if you WERE strong enough to accept that God made you gay, you would have had a much, much happier life, rather than putting this zeal you have into such lame and futile efforts on a gay site. Please, who are you really trying to convert, us or yourself?Lets face it Hank, no-one, and I mean NO one on this side of the Atlantic is going to listen to your “ex-gay” fire-and-brimstone rantings. You’re from another age, and you clearly need the counselling far more than any of us do. I am truly sorry for you, and I hope society in general is thankful of the straight “choice” you made so you can gain whatever acceptance you felt you needed from them. I, however, am and always was, strong enough to see I was born gay, and I’ll be very happy living my life as gay, thank you. I have no need for your brand of hate cloaked as “christianity”. I’m also pretty sure you DONT speak for Jesus. No petty hateful words from small people like you who think I was “molested” (this is where you lost your argument and your creditability) will ever sway me from that belief that you and your kind are a small dying breed of Neanderthals. In the EU, we stand tall and proud. We’re here to stay, and our group will get bigger and stronger as more people see that “coming out” is a better choice living a lie or trying to “convert” as you did. We are going nowhere, my friend.I’ll say no more on this matter, you’re not worth the effort. So, back to your red-neck Florida swamps, Hank…. the moonshine awaits you!

  37. Sister Mary Clarence 12 Nov 2007, 11:49am

    Hank – my posting may have a different tone, but I have to say I stand shoulder to shoulder with likes of William. It frustrates me that intelligent people cushion themselves from reality by relying so heavily on the word of God, written down by a man, interpreted by another man, then translated by another man, and interpreted again, and translated again and so on.I would happily stand before anyone, man or god, and be judged on my actions and the way I have lived my life. I am proud of what I am, of what I do, and of what I have done.If others need a crutch to support them through life and religion can provide that, then so be it. If through ignorance those people damn me because I am different to them the, it is a different matter. For every view you profess I’m sure I can find a well documented alternative view. We are talking about events that occurred 2000 years ago, the certainty with which you speak is reckless and ultimately it will destroy all faith in Christianity.Live your life as you will, but I am sure you will find it a much more rewarding experience if you refrain from directing hatred towards others different from you.The crutch that you enjoy, and have obviously studied the use of, should be available to everyone that needs it, straight or gay, yet for no good reason you are denying that crutch to others who may, like you, need it. In his Gospel, Matthew told us about Jesus’ visit to the temple. Were Jesus to pop back again today for another visit, I’m sure he would be equally unimpressed.

  38. Hey Mary Clarence;Since you don’t believe in the Holy Bible, you have to admit that it does exist in writter form. What do you think the Bible’s main point is?Do you believe in the Ten Commandments?You say you don’t trust the Bible because the original manuscripts don’t exist.They are no longer, to use the technical phrase, extant — that we have are just a few copies of a few copies and don’t know what the original Greek or Hebrew texts actually said — not all true.When judging the accuracy of ancient manuscript copies is the time span between the copies and the original.Here are the time spans for some of our greatest ancient writings.Caesar amd his Gaelic Wars. the earliest manuscript is 1,000 years after Caesar lived. Demosthenes, the great orator of Greece – the earliest manuscript is 1,200 years after he wrote it. Plato, 1,300 after he wrote, Herodotus, 1,300 yrs, Homer and The Odyssey, 2,200 yrs later. By these standards of antiquity, the Bible is an amazingly credible document. We don’t have 2,3,or 5 copies, but 5,750 Greek manuscripts of the New Testament. In various other translations we have up to 25,000 more copies. Quotatiions from the New Testament are found in the writings of virtually every one of our early church fathers — those writers living during the first 4 centuries after Christ. We also have the earliest fragment of a manuscript, the John Rylands papyri manuscript, which is a small portion of the Gospel of John, and is dated at A.D. 117-138.We have numerous papyri manuscripts from the 2,3 century, some larger manuscripts from the 4 century, and so on.No other ancient writing of any kind anywhere rests on as solid a foundation as does the Bible.If yu throw out the Bible as being textually uncertain, you’ll have to do away WITH ALL ANCIENT HISTORY. You’d have to say you know absolutely nothing about anything that happened in this world before A.D. 1000 becausethe Bible rests on a more solid foundation than any secular writing. Do you discount all the ancient writings as unreliable and worthless?I hope not!With the discoveries of the Dead Sea Scrolls in 148, a complete copy of the Book of Isaish from the fist century was unearthed. When comparing this manuscript with later copies of Isaish, it reads verbatim with only the slightest variation (with not meanings changed)The eminent scholar F.F. Bruce said of this discovery “The new evidence confirms what we had already good reaon to believe — that Jewish scribes of the early Christian centuries copied and recopied the text of the Hebrew Bible with the utmost fidelity. Author Millar Burrows says, “It’s a matter for wonder that through something like a thousand years the text underwent so little alteration.”Through the centuries, God preserved His Word’s integrity.So Mary Clarence, you can deny the writings of the Holy Bible, but you’ll also have to deny every other ancient writing of history – so where do you stand in understanding anything about our world?You can say anything you want about using the Holy Bible as an unreliable crutch…but on judgment day when you face Jesus Christ you’ll have a much different “story” to tell Him — but to no avail!saint Hank

  39. Robert, ex-pat Brit 12 Nov 2007, 1:28pm

    Hank, Henry, Henrietta, whoever you are, your rantings don’t cut it anymore. The problem with you so-called ex-gays is that you want it both ways. First, people like you would say that spending too much time with one’s mother would cause a young boy to become gay later in life in the absence of a father, or none at all; then you and your rabble say it can be caused by spending too much time with a same-sex parent, in my case, my father. Please, what a load of baloney. You’re pathetic. Who are you to condemn people to a fictional place called hell? It is YOU who needs to repent for denigrating and judging gay people. You have no moral authority to tell us who or what to believe in. The problem with your kind is that its either your way or the highway and living in a redneck state like Florida, it doesn’t surprise me, one of the most backward, regressive states in the union.I’m not going to waste any more time with your religious prattle and judgments and I advise anyone on this site to ignore you. You’re nothing but a pathetic individual who is in dire need of longterm reparative therapy to get you back to the realty. YOU’RE GAY, deal with it. If you’re not, no sane thinking straight man would waste his time coming to a gay website to agitate and risk guilt by association. How much did you and others pay to pray away the gay I wonder? Seems to us, it didn’t do much good, otherwise you wouldn’t be here. Enjoy the rapture!

  40. William - Dublin. 12 Nov 2007, 3:44pm

    “the Bible is an amazingly credible document.”Oh, please, what a load of nonsense. Don’t quote history to me when you use such stupid examples. The bible is no more an account of historical fact than something like the Epic of Gilgamesh, or Homer’s Odyssey. Just because it was written years ago, doesn’t mean its anything more then a lame bunch of contradictory stories.”you know absolutely nothing about anything that happened in this world before A.D. 1000″Again, absolute rubbish of the highest order. The Bible is not a historical document, you twit. Its a nice collection of stories which in turn stem from ancient writings of other cultures like the Egyptian and Sumerian religions. In fact, nearly all the biblical stories can be traced to earlier cultures, which means they are by no means a proven source of historical fact any more than Barney the Dinosaur is an accurate account of a T-Rex in the fossil record… you DO believe in the fossil record now, Hank, don’t you?Please hank, if you are going to back up your so called religion, please use facts. You seem to be burdened with half truths and lies. Try wikipedia, it’s by no means 100% accurate, but its a damn better start then where you are currently getting your claptrap from! Don’t pretend to be clever with quotes, this isn’t a kids site. Some of us have real education. You are not some person with acute learning difficulties, are you? Lets get that out of the way first.Answer this: do you believed Adam and Eve existed as real, as told in the bible?

  41. Sister Mary Clarence 12 Nov 2007, 4:58pm

    “You say you don’t trust the Bible because the original manuscripts don’t exist.” – didn’t say that mate, just said that you’re not reading them.”If you throw out the Bible as being textually uncertain, you’ll have to do away WITH ALL ANCIENT HISTORY” – not at all mate, history is being constantly reviewed and our interpretations updated. We are uncovering new information about the ancient and modern world all the time. Nothing is constant, the Bible is no different.”So Mary Clarence, you can deny the writings of the Holy Bible, but you’ll also have to deny every other ancient writing of history – so where do you stand in understanding anything about our world?” I certainly do not deny what is written in the Bible. It is a moral code for man to live by. But Hank, do all of us need that moral code to guide us, cannot some of us come to those same conclusions by our own reasoning. Would you think murder was okay if the Bible did not decree it otherwise? Would you happily sleep with another man’s wife if the Bible did not tell you it was wrong? I like to think that you would neither commit murder or adultery. The Bible is full of advice on how to live a healthy, safe and virtuous life. It provides a valuable resource for those that need guidance and support. If for some reason you feel I have suggested the Bible is an ‘unreliable’ crutch, then you have misunderstood me.The difficulty I have with the Bible though is that many people have left their mark on the original work, slowly over time discolouring and distorting things Those who rely on it too heavily allow it to override their own moral compass. Trust in yourself to know the difference between right and wrong.

  42. Hey Mary Clarence:I’m curious to know about your god.Please tell me about your god.When did it/he/she/whatever come into existence?How does it treat good/evil….reward/punishment…birth/life/death…prayer…supernatural/ miracles…how do you communicate with oneanother….love/hate….angels/satan…blasphemy…sin/forgiveness….other religions?Please, I’m sincerely interested in your god and beliefs…tell me about your worldview.saint Hank

  43. Mary Clarence.In this statement of yours”If you throw out the Bible as being textually uncertain, you’ll have to do away WITH ALL ANCIENT HISTORY” – not at all mate, history is being constantly reviewed and our interpretations updated. We are uncovering new information about the ancient and modern world all the time. Nothing is constant, the Bible is no different.Where are you getting your material that you’re constantly reviewing and making updates. These documents are thousands of years old and their authenticity, validity, reliabilty are in question since you don’t have the original writiings — only interpretations ands so-called copies by people who lived long after the fact. Your updates are based on unprovable “ancient facts” — you’re just taking them on faith that they’re close to what happened.You can’t have it both ways, if Biblical writings can’t be taken at face value, neither can your secular historical writings.saint Hank

  44. Hey William:Your comment:Again, absolute rubbish of the highest order. The Bible is not a historical document, you twit. Its a nice collection of stories which in turn stem from ancient writings of other cultures like the Egyptian and Sumerian religions. In fact, nearly all the biblical stories can be traced to earlier cultures, which means they are by no means a proven source of historical fact any more than Barney the Dinosaur is an accurate account of a T-Rex in the fossil record… you DO believe in the fossil record now, Hank, don’t youSuch a stupid statemnt — SHOW ME ONE ARCHAEOLOGICAL FINDING THAT HAS DISPROVED ANYTHING THE HOLY BIBLE HAS STATED. In fact, the more excavations that are done, the greater the proof that everything the Bible notes has been proved to be factual.Also, show me your proof that the biblical stories that can be traced to earliest cultures. REMEMBER, THOSE WRITINGS GO BACK MANY THOUSANDS OF YEARS…and as Mary Clarence says, writings of Christian manuscripts, can’t be relied on because of their age and lack of original manuscripts. So where are you getting your “proof that the biblical stories can be traced to earliest cultures” because they go back even more years than the Christian writings. I see a double standard here.saint Hank

  45. Hey William:Answer this: do you believed Adam and Eve existed as real, as told in the bible?I certainly do. My proof is in the Holy Bible.What’s you proof that they didn’texist?saint Hank

  46. “SHOW ME ONE ARCHAEOLOGICAL FINDING THAT HAS DISPROVED ANYTHING THE HOLY BIBLE HAS STATED.”That’s just it, there are so few archaeological findings to prove any of the bible, its the absence of proof that is the proof. And your proof for Adam and Eve is the bible itself. How narrow and utterly unenlightened of you to say so.”What’s you proof that they didn’texist?”Common sense. Next you’re going to tell me that a T-Rex played fetch in the garden of Eden with them too?Now I know you’re a complete idiot. And your use of block capitals only lends to the fact that you seem more and more likely to be a disturbed individual rather then anyone to take seriously.Adam and Eve, Indeed. So you think its okay to fuck your sister like Adam and Eve’s offspring clearly did? Don’t bother to answer, I have a fair idea as to what you answer will be. What a fool you are. Tell you something, if gay is what you are not, then I am glad I am… for the further I am form you and your stupid views the better. Keep your “straight” life. If the price I pay for not being gay is your level of stupidity, I’d rather be smart and gay thank you.Listen well to this: gays are here to stay. All of us:- Sister Mary, Robert, me and every other gay man and woman. And we’re getting more powerful and influential every day. We’re proud and happy in what we are, and every day more rights are being given to us, as more of you ex-gays conservatives end up in scandals in public toilets, your hypocrisy only lends weight to our cause.. Your efforts and rantings are futile. Nothing you say here will make an iota of difference to that. Battle away with your Adam and Eve stories, the time of your kind will eventually come to an end. And not a moment too soon.I should let you go, its probably time for your medicine…

  47. HeY anonymousListen well to this: gays are here to stay. All of us:- Sister Mary, Robert, me and every other gay man and woman. And we’re getting more powerful and influential every day. We’re proud and happy in what we are, and every day more rights are being given to us, as more of you ex-gays conservatives end up in scandals in public toilets, your hypocrisy only lends weight to our cause.. Your efforts and rantings are futile. Nothing you say here will make an iota of difference to that. Battle away with your Adam and Eve stories, the time of your kind will eventually come to an end. And not a moment too soon.Sorry old chum — your days are numbered just like in the days of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire. Enjoy your decadence while you can. History shows that stupid and evil mankind always repeats its sins and ills and gets its just rewards. See you on judgment day but I’ll not be on your side of the punishment given out.But you still have time — you have a choice don’t let it go be the wayside. Jesus will forgive you — all you have to do is ask Him.saint Hank

  48. Hey Anonymous:Your comment to: “SHOW ME ONE ARCHAEOLOGICAL FINDING THAT HAS DISPROVED ANYTHING THE HOLY BIBLE HAS STATED.”That’s just it, there are so few archaeological findings to prove any of the bible, its the absence of proof that is the proof. And your proof for Adam and Eve is the bible itself. How narrow and utterly unenlightened of you to say so.Such a stupid retort:You offer an opinion but no facts. The Holy Bible talks about Pharaohs of Egypt, 1483-1450 B.C. Kings of Aram/Damascus/Syria, Kings of Babylon. Nebuchadnezzar, Herod the Great…Tiberius Caesar, Nero, with numerous wars, cities built and ruined, — all confirmed by expert secular historians and aarchaeologists. Those are facts my friend — you have nothing to counter except your “intellectual” opinion. Sorry that doesn’t compare with my factual information. If you want to counter my facts, present facts not a simple-minded opinion. Or don’t you have facts to support your case — I think not because you’re really not a bright person So before you try to belittle me with a lot of mumbo jumbo — do some reading in history, archeology and religion and let’s get on with an intellectual discussion with FACTS NOT INDIVIDUAL OPINIONS.Sleep well,saint Hank

  49. “your days are numbered just like in the days of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire”Really? You know that’s not true. You know we’re everywhere. Out and Proud!Back to your moonshine ridden swamp there bigot…

  50. Hey RobertYour statement is:I’m not going to waste any more time with your religious prattle and judgments and I advise anyone on this site to ignore you. You’re nothing but a pathetic individual who is in dire need of longterm reparative therapy to get you back to the realty. YOU’RE GAY, deal with it. If you’re not, no sane thinking straight man would waste his time coming to a gay website to agitate and risk guilt by association. How much did you and others pay to pray away the gay I wonder? Seems to us, it didn’t do much good, otherwise you wouldn’t be here. Enjoy the rapture!The reason I continue comments on your website is because I like the mental challenge of taking on all your comments — most of them repititious — “you’re gay…you’re ex-gay…you’re an idiot….etc.They all show me that most of you are very guilt-ridden and angry at your lifestyle and don’t want to admit it. You won’t admit that one’s upbringing, enviornment, early experiences, relationship problems have anything to do with some homosexuals — I repeat THERE IS NOT A TYPICAL HOMOSEXUAL. It’s a complex mixture that create an individual’s lifestyle. The above has been borne out by many qualified psychologists, therapists, counselors, and otherw working with people with sexual problems. But no…you’ve examined all the studies…and you know it all to be a fact that homosexuals are born that way. WHERE’S YOUR PROOF? Hormone, genetics, and any other factors that you could use in your argument have never been shown. So where you get off being such an expert. Do you deny that there are homosexuals who are unhappy with their lifestyle…that they’d like to change? Come on be realistic….not all homosexuals are “happy campers.”But the myth “once gay always gay” is a vicious, evil statement that takes away all hope for homosexuals who aren’t happy with their life.Give me some facts concerning my above statements…not your opinion. Show me …not LeVay…who was a bogus researcher.Sleep well,saint Hank

  51. “You offer an opinion but no facts.”You believe Adam and Eve were real. I don’t need to go any further. Here’s a few reasons why:(1) The fossil record(2) Carbon dating(3) Evolution (yeah, its real and proven to be true)(4) Adam and Eve’s kids would have to had sex with each other to create humanity. While your parents clearly done this to produce a child with dimisnished capacity, it’s not how species evolves.And finally, my favourite: your a complete idiot. No one with an IQ over a room temperature believes Adam and Eve could ever exist. Just you and a few other who got missed by the educations system.Run along there, Hank… I’m sure you have a few queers to bash in your pick up truck…

  52. “They all show me that most of you are very guilt-ridden and angry at your lifestyle and don’t want to admit it.”Really? That’s quite a leap of faith. Your increased anger and frustration shows with every comment you write.Give it up, banjo-boy, your sad efforts to insult us only prove us more certain that you are one messed up piece of work.And seriously, do you REALLY expect anyone here to be dumb enough to argue with you when you believe in Adam and Eve??? Get real, moron.

  53. “So where you get off being such an expert”He’s an expert because he’s gay. Hence, more of an expert then you.”…because I like the mental challenge…”I find this very hard to accept. From what I’m reading here about your rather retarded “views” on the bible, I would suggest reading the time is a sufficient mental challenge for the likes of you, Hank.

  54. “not all homosexuals are happy campers.”Well, I am for one. Who else is?

  55. Me too, Ciaran! I’m a very happy camper!

  56. Hank you’re sick, get help fast, so is your phoney straight orientation.

  57. Robert, ex-pat Brit 12 Nov 2007, 9:23pm

    William, I never thought about what you said in regard to Adam and Eve’s children. Yes, they would have had to have committed incest to produce more children, yuck! No wonder religion is so f—-d up with imbeciles like you know who. They say incest weakens the DNA and family line often resulting in mental illness and other deformities. I think our mutual friend and his ilk fit that mould don’t you? To think, religion has supported incest all these centuries. Now that has to be the sickest of all.

  58. Robert, ex-pat Brit 12 Nov 2007, 9:26pm

    Ciaran and William, I too am an extremely happy camper, unlike Hank who is so lonely, unhappy and deluded and resorts to religion to compensate for his sexual inadequacies, most religious bigots are disturbed people anyway, religion is their last refuge, a bunch of losers.

  59. Dear all,Hank is clearly having some kind of breakdown. People in crisis are very vulnerable and I don’t think we should taunt him further lest we be responsible for some very unfortunate consequenses.It might be best to ignore any further postings and let the professionals deal with him from hereon.

  60. Robert, me thinks you have hit the nail on the head… it would explain a lot given his 14th century rants. One can only assume that a hound dog, a shotgun and a pick up truck constitute part of Hanks family photo.

  61. Sister Mary Clarence 13 Nov 2007, 9:11am

    Sorry, a bit late, but I’m definitely a happy camper too.And Hank, I hope that you get over all of this so that one day you can be as happy with your life as I am with mine.

  62. Robert, ex-pat Brit 13 Nov 2007, 12:53pm

    William, you’re probably right about that. Their brand of religion engenders imbeciles and since they are descendants of an incestual relationship, is it no wonder? They’re losing the cultural war and they know it, they see us winning, day by day all over the planet. Their days are numbered which explains why they resort to such pitiful rantings that are falling on dear ears. Wasn’t it Jesus who decried proselytising, shouting one’s religion from the rooftops? Obviously, they’re not practicing what their leader preached, none of them for that matter, all a bunch of hypocrites and bigots.

  63. Hey all:One question at a time….I’ll get to you all shortly.Happy Camper Mary Clarence: You dissapoint me. I asked you a legitimate and sincere question about wanting you to tell me about your god and your religion. Nothing….what happened? I have an idea why you declined to explain your god and the important questions about the important questions/anwsers that I asked — all needed for mankind to accept god for salvation and leadership.My God has give us the anwers we need — about Him and about ourselves and it’s out ther for everyone to read and discuss, to argue, to accept, whatever…how about your god and religion. Tell me about it…please…I truly want to know what kind of direction you have for your life.For all the others who made comments, I’ll get to each one shortly.Talk with you happy campers later.saint Hank

  64. “Talk with you happy campers later.”Ohhh, I simply can’t wait. Another bible bashing instalment from a red-neck swamp hick who thinks he’s on this earth because Adam Eve’s kids knocked each other up. How exciting for us all.

  65. I can’t believe people actually waste time with god-squad morons like this. Anybody who believes there is an imaginary man in the sky who can hear everything and see everything, and even know our thoughts must genuinely be quite thick. I mean really, come on.Read leviticus, it condemms many things, but the only thing evangelicals go on about is homosexuality.Let’s look indeed at some facts. In the Old testament, Abraham is commanded by god to sacrifice his only son. This he duly agrees to, binding his son up, placing him upon an altar, and just as he was about to kill his own son, god sent an angel to tell him it was all just a test. I’m really sorry, but the ‘good book’ here is describing what is quite clearly attempted murder, child torture and good old child abuse. Abraham is held up as rather astoundingly highly revered in christianity.Let’s look forther at the ‘good book’. In Numbers 15, the children of Israel found a man gathering sticks on the Sabbath, so they arrested him, and asked god what they should do with him. ‘And the Lord said unto Moses, The man shall surely be put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp. And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died.’ Wow! this is some moral guide. Child abuse, torture, imprisonment, barbaric murder of an innocent man, attempted murder of your own kids.But let’s carry on looking at the ‘good book’. The folowing offences merit the death penalty according to Leviticus 20, cursing your parents, committing adultery, making love to your stepmother or daughter in law, and so on. Funny how the god-squad don’t talk about that much.Let’s condsider in Deuteronomy, the seizing of the ‘promised Land’ in 20, the people who previously lived there were swiftly dealt with in true barbaric christian style; ‘but of the cities of these people, which the lord thy god doth give thee for an inheritance, thou shal save alive nothing that breatheth: but thou shalt utterly destroy them’. Wow! now we have god commanded genocide. What a good book.As to authenticity, you genuinely have to be dumb, or never to have fully read the bible to think it is a historical record of anything. Two sets of ten commandments, confusion over the virgin birth in the New testament (maybe that’s because it was written thousands of years after the events were said to have occurred). There is so much contradiction in the bible, I’d be here all day going through it all. Sadly, most god-squad never actually sit down and read the entire bible, and ask questions. It’s all about blind faith you see. If you don’t believe, you’ll surely go to hell!!!!!! Actually that’s another thing, think about it, the threat is real and implicit, if you don’t become a christian, you will be punished for all eternity.Seriously, the comments of religious groups condemming homosexuality only serve to give succour to the evil homophobic thugs around the globe. well done god.

  66. Robert, ex-pat Brit 13 Nov 2007, 6:51pm

    William, yes, the imbecile is back on the rampage again. What can we expect from a descendant of incest?

  67. “Obviously, they’re not practising what their leader preached”Well Robert, it was Gandhi who said about christians “I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.”And he must have been looking right at Hank when he came up with this very apt line! People like Hank wouldn’t know Jesus if he kicked him. He thinks he’s smart because he learns a few lines, and then rants about all us being “sinners” on the fast track to “hell”… poor, poor, silly misguided little Hank.Actually, come to think of it, if hell is where me and my partner are going, then we’ll see all you folks down there too! Lets face it, I’d spend an eternity in hell than one hour in heaven if its full of mindless dull retards like Hank! Besides, it wouldn’t be hell if my partner was there with me, and with all the queers there the parties will never end! Sweet. VIVA HELL!

  68. Now, going by my vague recolections didn’t Adam and Eve have two sons? And didn’t one of those sons kill the other? Does this then mean, according to the bible, the human race was born of a mother and son union…?

  69. Hey happy campers William, RobertLike to explain your comment:William, I never thought about what you said in regard to Adam and Eve’s children. Yes, they would have had to have committed incest to produce more children, yuck! No wonder religion is so f—-d up with imbeciles like you know who. They say incest weakens the DNA and family line often resulting in mental illness and other deformities. I think our mutual friend and his ilk fit that mould don’t you? To think, religion has supported incest all these centuries. Now that has to be the sickest of all.Robert, ex-pat Brit | 11.12.07 – 9:23 pm | # WHERE DID CAIN GET HIS WIFE?The Bible teaches clearly that all human beings are decendents of Adam and Eve — thus there had to be inter-marriage between brother (in the beginning and later on, not by depending on the time span as I’ll explain).There would have been no risk of this causing harmful deformities in the offspring, because mutations (accidental changes in the hereditary information) need time to occur and accumulate in a population.Thus the first few generations would have inherited perfect or near-perfect genes.In the pre-Flood world, harmful rediation from the sun and other cosmic sources was considerably more filtered than it is in the post-Flood world.Increased radiation and depletion of oxygen in the atmosphere (subsequent to the lowering of the atmosphere pressure) may have contributed greatly to man’s rapid degeneration.With the passing of many centuries, many of these harmful, degerarative changes became added to the human race, so by the time of Moses it was absolutely necessary to have laws against incest and these were given to mankind (Leviticus 18-20).Today there would be even more chance of deformity/disease in the offspring of such a union than in Moses’s time.Because of the long life-spans (500, 700, 900 years) Adam and Eve’s decendents may have been very numerous and widely dispersed before Cain even took a wife — that is, any inhabitants of the land of Nod would have been descendants of Adam and Even, who had many sons and daughters.If you happy campers have a more logical, provable explanation please let me know. In the future do some intellictual reading to get enlightened (if you can indeed read) otherwise you come off looking like THE VILLAGE IDIOTS.Be well,saint Hank

  70. Hey happy campers William, RobertHave to correct my first line in my comment — didn’t preview before I sent.The Bible teaches clearly that all human beings are decendants of Adam and Eve — thus there had to be inter-marriage between brother and sister.Now don’t get any ideas of how my original left off “sister.” — knowing who I’m contacting (Hehehe).Have a good one,saint Hank

  71. A bit more clarification to Cain’s wife.Cain , of course, was Adam and Eve’s son who murdered his brother, Abel.Genesis says that Cain went to live in the land of Nod, which was East of Eden, and there he took a wife.Where did this wife come from” The answer is simple. In Genesis 5:3 we fiind that Adam lived 130 years and begot a son in his own likeness, and called his name Seth. Then in the next verse it states, After he begot Seth, the days of Adam were 800 years and he had sons and daughters. But where along the line of lineage was the “sister” that Cane married — could have been many generations apart.Also because it’s forbidden in the Scripturs to marry one’s sister, we have to be careful about “ex post facto” laws — making laws after the event.So guys, don’t worry about the inbreeding problem — God solves problems before they become problems. The Holy Bible has answers for all sinners.

  72. “Thus the first few generations would have inherited perfect or near-perfect genes.”Okay, now you’re talking pure shite. This is my domain, and you have no idea what you are talking about if you believe this. I, surprisingly, am qualified to talk about this. Here goes, try keep up. I’ll even keep it very simple. Inbreeding leads to an increase in homozygosity, because close relatives are much more likely to share the same alleles than unrelated individuals. If there are recessive alleles that happen to be deleterious, this can cause serious developmental defects. If Adam and Eve did exist (big stretch of my imagination here), the human race would be a retarded pack on sterile gibbons in a few generations.Oh, and it goes on. other areas the bible promotes this sick practise: In the story of Sodom and Gomorrah in the Book of Genesis in the Bible, Lot’s two daughters have sex with him to carry on their lineage when they believe that all humanity but them has been destroyed. But, wait for it, later, the Book of Leviticus lists prohibitions against sexual relations between various pairs of family members…. wow. If this is the word of God, then he’s a confused little puppy…. and if that’s not fucking confusing, I have no idea what is. Explain please hank, I enjoy a good laugh at your version of logic!I can imagine that is way above your basic grasp on science there Hank, but then again, why would you need science? You have religion and head trauma on your side.As for “If you happy campers have a more logical, provable explanation please let me know.”Here’s a crazzzzy off the wall idea for you… more logical than you stupid in breeding theory. It didn’t happen. Because it couldn’t have happened.One can only assume you are too eager in supporting this form of inbreeding and incest because you may have experienced it in some form yourself? You’re own parents perhaps? Or have you tried it on your cousin perhaps?I’m sorry for being crass here, but it’s too easy to prove you’re a intellectually retarded fool…

  73. Actually, Robert, I have to say, I’m bored of this guy. Don’t know about you. He’s such a stupid gimp. Why doesn’t he just (pardon my French) fuckoff and bother some Islamic site and they can argue crap until their blue in the face.

  74. Sister Mary Clarence 13 Nov 2007, 10:07pm

    I’ve never read the whole thing, but it certainly sounds interesting with all the snippets we’re getting on here, a sort of cross between Desperate Housewives and Harry Potter.I can see why you’ve got so hooked Hank. I bet it’s a bit like Dungeons and Dragons. I mean in the sense that when you start, you can’t stop, not that you go weird and lose all your friends … although, saying that …..

  75. WilliamYou state”Okay, now you’re talking pure shite. This is my domain, and you have no idea what you are talking about if you believe this. I, surprisingly, am qualified to talk about this. Here goes, try keep up. I’ll even keep it very simple. Inbreeding leads to an increase in homozygosity, because close relatives are much more likely to share the same alleles than unrelated individuals. If there are recessive alleles that happen to be deleterious, this can cause serious developmental defects. If Adam and Eve did exist (big stretch of my imagination here), the human race would be a retarded pack on sterile gibbons in a few generations.Are you retarded or just can’t read English. I wrote:The earliest sexual relations in the early days of Adam and Eve were problem -free because mutations need time to occur and accumlate in a population. In the 900 years of Adam’s life, the speading out of individuals who had sex had very little in common with the original genetic make-up starting with Adam and So inbreeding did not have a chance to create biological problems that early in genetic inheritance. Moses’ making incest unlawful prevents inter-marrying of close relatives, thereby disease/illness, etc. is not happening– all because Moses was wise enough to see the results. Can you show me the studies showiing inbreeding results that were taking place thousands of years ago when the race had much more purity to itself.Be well,saint Hank

  76. William:You write:Oh, and it goes on. other areas the bible promotes this sick practise: In the story of Sodom and Gomorrah in the Book of Genesis in the Bible, Lot’s two daughters have sex with him to carry on their lineage when they believe that all humanity but them has been destroyed. But, wait for it, later, the Book of Leviticus lists prohibitions against sexual relations between various pairs of family members…. wow. If this is the word of God, then he’s a confused little puppy.Here’s my reply:You have to remember that Lot lived in Sodom for many years and had a position of authority sitting om the gate of Sodom. Reading Genesis 19 you can easily see that he called the men of Sodom, “brothers.” He had become weak in his closeness to God and didn’t point out the sins and wickedness of Sodom’s people to themselves — when a person is among wicked people he can be influenced by them unless he is strong in the Word of God, which Lot was not.When the 2 angels warned Lot of the impending destruction of Sodom, Lot “hesitated…so the men seized his hand and the handof his wife and two daughters…and they brought them out….” Even at the lost moment, Lot still had feelings for Sodom.Lot’s wife was killed when she looked back at Sodom during its destruction. So you can see their entire family was negatively influenced from living in Sodom (a very evil city) The daughters carried out the terrible sexual act with Lot — again, the influence of Sodom had a huge carryover.The Holy Bible has all the answers you need if you take the time to read it — but I guess you have greater books to read to expand your limited knowledge.Be well,saint Hank

  77. Hey Jeff:I’m responding your questions, comments about some of God’s harsh judgments. I have to digest them because to give them complete details would be too lengthy. You can look them up for total clarity.The Old Testament records a number of cases God used capital punishment to deal with Israel’s sins and the sins of nations surrounding Israel.One example w as the flood in Noah’s day (Gen.6- God destroyed all human life and animal life except those on the ark. Sodom and Gomorrah (Gen 18-19 was destroyed because of their heinous sin. In the time of Moses, God took the lives of the Egyptian firstborn (Exod 11)..Red Sea (Exod 14) When the Israelites were wandering in the wilderness, God punished the people at Kadesh Barnea (Numb 13-14)’The Old Testament also teaches that God instituted capital punishment in the Mosaic Law, though the principle of capital punishment preceded the Old Testament code of law. According to Gen.9-6 capital punishment is based on the sanctity of life. “Whoever shed man’s blood, by man his blood shall be shed, for in the image of God, He made man. “God is sovereign and He does what He does and it is perfect in His Will.Sleep well,saint Hank

  78. William:Your comments:(1) The fossil record(2) Carbon dating(3) Evolution (yeah, its real and proven to be true)(4) Adam and Eve’s kids would have to had sex with each other to create humanity. While your parents clearly done this to produce a child with dimisnished capacity, it’s not how species evolves.I have to take these individually on different mails.– otherwise they’ll be too lengthy.Evolution– I disproved this on my earlier mail discussing Dr. Francis Crick, Sir Fred Hoyle Dr. chandra Wickramasinghe, concerning cells, and DNA. Read it — I’m just condensening the findings.For just one simple cell to come into existence by chance 10 to 40,000 power) yearsAny number in which the probabilties were greater than 10 to 50 power would simply never happen, even cosmically. This destroy’s evolutionaly theory.Living systems could not have been generated by random processes within a finite time-scale, in a finite universe.Sorry, I can’t believe your creation came from a couple of amino acids thrown into a primordial slime, shoot it with a lightening bolt…and wham….you have a WILLIAM coming into existence in a few eons.Got to give me something more scientific from your files old man..Sleep well Williamsanit Hank

  79. Hey William, JeffHow do you handle this?The First Law of Thermodynamics is stated as follows: Matter and energy can be neither created nor destroyed. There are no natural processes that can alter either matter or energy in this way. This means that there is no new matter or energy coming into existence and there is no new matter or energy passing out of existence. All who state that the universe came into existence from nothing violate the first law of thermodynamics, which was established by the very scientific community who now seem willing to ignore it. In summary, this law plainly demonstrates that the universe, and all matter and energy within it, must have had a divine origin—a specific moment in which it was created by someone who was all-powerful.saint Hank

  80. Robert, ex-pat Brit 14 Nov 2007, 1:09pm

    William, I agree, one sick pathetic asshole. Makes you wonder how many other gay websites he’s trolling to get off on. He’s GAY, he knows it, and just can’t admit it because he hates himself so much. I suggest that everybody on this site should ignore his comments and not to even respond. He thrives on responses, so lets bite our bottom lips and let him rant until he wears himself out. Silence can be deadly.

  81. William - Dublin 14 Nov 2007, 5:22pm

    Well, Hank, I have no intention of debating science with someone who has such a warped and uninformed view as yourself. You are wrong in so many of your assertions, but I just don’t have time or the will to show you where your insular view of “biblical science” [sic] is wrong. I am a scientist, and I am confident in my knowledge and my many academic credentials, but I rarely get my kicks arguing with a fool.Let’s get to brass tacks here: 1) Why would a supposedly “straight” person spend so much time on a gay site arguing pseudo-science using the bible as some kind of warped “proof” with people who couldn’t give a toss? You claim to be here for debate, but that’s clearly not true, you haven’t debated anything since you started, just rammed a load of cheap contradictory quotes down our throats and then throw a hissy-fit as soon as someone gives proof to the contrary. Does this REALLY make you feel better? I doubt it. my guess is its an inferiority issue.2) What drives you to insult us with the belief that we are all lonely and sad individuals? Clearly you NEED to think we are all that way because it makes you feel better in some way. Why, I wonder? To me, all your protestations about “ex-gays” only indicate that it’s quite probable you are one. That in itself in an insult to yourself. But I have heard nothing from any of the regulars on this site to lend me to think they are “unhappy” in themselves. Quite the opposite, in fact. That’s your cross to bear, and quite frankly, I couldn’t give a fuck why you carry it. Maybe you were abused, maybe you were raped, or maybe you like to be raped. I simply couldn’t care less as to the reason, but it’s clearly something you need professional help with. You are obviously very unhappy in yourself, no matter what you say to the contrary. Lets be clear here. NO ONE stable and happy in themselves comes into a gay site to argue sexuality or morality.Robert, Sister Mary, and all the others who regularly visit this site, we may differ on opinion, and we may come from varied points of view, but listen well to this Hank: We are all gay or trans. We are all proud. And comfortable in what we are. And we are all happy with our lives. And whether you like/believe it or not, we are a growing force. 60 years ago there was practically no gay rights movement, or a gay lobby groups, but now? Now we can change laws! And we are doing it with such speed and ferocity that it’s staggering. Within a few years, every EU state will have gay protections and some form of civil unions. And we get more rights by the day. And you? A tired old man feebly quoting contradictory ‘scriptures’ on a gay site. Indeed, how proud you must be of yourself. In fact, the more nuts like you the better, you only play into our hands.Robert’s right, I will no longer be bated by your nonsense and ranting… you live in your own personal hell, and that’s enough for me. It’s obvious there is something very, very wrong with you Hank.(Well, except to laugh at you. You do make me laugh, I’ll give you that. It’s the kinda laugh you get where is wrong to laugh at a person with an intellectual retardation, but you get a kick out of it none the less.)And here’s a parting thought for you: nothing you say or do will have the SLIGHTEST bit of impact on any of our lives. I will continue to live my very affluent and happy life with my wonderful partner, comfortable in the knowledge that you and your kind sit in empty church pews, and all you have left is your petty rants on a gay site. And the knowledge that we, all of us on this site, despite our differences, are better and happier than you in every conceivable way, and nothing you can say will convince me otherwise!So, good day to you. You, sir, are a buffoon.

  82. Robert, ex-pat Brit 14 Nov 2007, 7:29pm

    William, I commend you for that, thank you so much, I couldn’t have said it better.

  83. Well said William, thank you.

  84. Hey William and others.You say why do I bother with comments on your website. Not that I’m ex-gay, gay or whatever else runs though your deceived minds.Read this and you’ll know why I oppose the homosexual lifestyle so stongly — not just on religious terms.Then send your rational rebuttal if you have one. I cannot talk about England’s homosexual problem, but if there’s information about it, please send it to me so I can be enlightened.According to the National Institute of Allergy and Infectuous Diseases (with the National Institue of Health)– is is about 6 years old so I would think the problem is worse.There are an estimated 40,000 new HIV infections each year in the USA…70% of these are men and 30% women.Of those men who are infected, 60% of them are iinfected through homosexual sex, 25% through intravenous drug use, and 15% herterosexual sex.The San Francisco Chronicle, in Jan 24, 2001 said the rate of infecion has risen from 1.04% in 1997 to 2.2% in 2001. A rate of 2.2% a year means that 22 of 1,000 HIV negative men will contract the virus.A quarter of thie city’s estimated 46,8000 homosexual males are already infected.Researchers also found that study of HIV infected homosexuals in San. Fran.show 9% report having had high risk anal sex with someone who was HIV negative.Health officials in Seattle, WA are seeing a resurgence of unsafe sexual behavior among homosexuals. They expect to see a new wave of infections as younger males discard Safe sex” messages. These health officials say there are 3 reasons why homosexuals are vecoming lax about “safe sex.”Effective drug treatments have led homosexuals to believe that HIV is manageable or curable.Homsexuals are suffering from “epidemic fatigue” and have given up safe sex measures.And many of them are continuing to engage in the use of drugs to increase sexual pleasure.Drug usage is directly related to the practice of engaging in anonymous sex with multiple sex partners — partners whose HIV status is unknown.There’s the crisis.A big part of the homosexual agenda is to target “teens” with pro-homosexual messages and condom use.That homosexuality is a legitimate alternative lifestyle that they should accept in viewing sexuality.All this only fuels the AIDS epedimic growth and it condemns naive and unsophisticateds youngsters to an early grave if we allow Homosexual activists to recruit children through the pro homosexual programs in our schools and through various media.There you have it. I am opposed to letting you spread propoganda in our early youth’s years – when they can be induced to experiment with homosexuality — and many of them will be hooked for life. Yes, homosexuality can be foisted on immature youngsters.Well, what do you think happy camper William — is this a rational argument and not just hogwash?saint Hank

  85. Robert, ex-pat Brit 14 Nov 2007, 9:13pm

    William, DON’T respond, he’s one sick asshole. Its something all of the right wing religious bigots use in the U.S. to discriminate but its not working any more. It never was a “gay” disease as he implies. If it were, then by the same argument, we could say that cancer is a predominantly straight disease, human papilloma virus, herpes since more of them get it per capita than we do. He forgets that AIDS is overhwhelmingly an heterosexually transmitted disease on the African continent and elsewhere. He loses the argument anyway. They’d invent something else if AIDS weren’t around to use against us. Its an old mantra they use when they get desperate, a last resort when their losing the argument. Pay no attention.

  86. Hey Robert, I’m not going to waste my time with him. Talk about showing your true colours… what small little bigot he is. This inbred hick has some kind of Munchausen syndrome with gay men.Maybe if he didn’t knock up his sister so much…

  87. Hey Robert:Your last comment makes me think you have ADD and can’t understand plain English.I never said HIV-AIDS is a gay disease. The statistics I related shows how prevalent it is in the USA and how homosexual activists are promoting pro-homosexual lifestyles to “teens” and youngsters in schools through showing alternative lifestyles that should be accepted without dangerous possiblities.Also I’m not talking about AIDS in Africa you idiot — I’m talking about AIDS in the USA and particularly in San Fran. — where the homosexuals are creating their own city epidemic. How idiotic is their behavior — I don’t want them passing on their dangerous lifestyle to youngsters.– can you blame for trying to protect children?Reread my comments and tell what is erroneous — show me some studies and results that counter my concern for children’s health.You’re so biased you can’t even read an article without deceiving yourself. YOU CAN’T HANDLE THE TRUTH!Sleep well with a clear conscience if you can.saint Hank

  88. Hi its me again.I think gays are responsible for global warming.I also think gays make lemons taste bitter.I believe that gays are responsible for flat tyres.I know gays are responsible for blunt razors.I’m sure it was a gay that was responsible for the Iraq war.The bible will support me in all these beliefs.Right, now that I got that off my chest, I’m off to cut two holes in a pillow case and burn a few crosses… but not before I get some home made booze in me and knock one off on my sisters leg!Saint Hank

  89. Sister Mary Clarence 15 Nov 2007, 12:35am

    Hank – the main think fueling the HIV/AIDS pandemic is ignorance, so please when you are f**king your sister, use a condom otherwise you may infect her with your stupidity.

  90. Your comment:Hank – the main think fueling the HIV/AIDS pandemic is ignorance, so please when you are f**king your sister, use a condom otherwise you may infect her with your stupidity.Sister Mary Clarence | 11.15.07 – 12:35 am | # My response:No the main thing fueling the HIV?AIDS pandemic is sexual relations — by homosexuals, hererosexual fornicators, drug abusers. The innocent blood transfer vicitms is a sad case. But if unmaried people kept it in their pants and panties, and drug users would find better ways to get high and homosexuals would behave as nature intended — we’d have no problems.I starting to believe most comments are coming from many of you who are affected with STD’s that are affecting rational thinking.I still have not heard any rational responses about protecting young childrem from being indoctrinated in the homosexual lifestyle and endangering their lives. How about NAMBA — do you accept it? Probably so.No…I’m finding out that whenever I present provable facts — you people go ballistic and start cursing and calling me names– it reflects your intelligence. YOU CAN’T HANDLE THE TRUTH! — admit it and we can all change attitudes and discuss serious problems.San Francisco is a cesspool of perversion — it once was a decent city until the homosexuals took over and now look at the results.Sleep wellsaint Hank

  91. Not that you will accept this at all “Saint” Hank being the idiotic bigoted buffoon (William: love that choice of word) that you are. But gay people are born gay in the same way that straight people are born straight. No matter how many right-wing sponsored studies you quote, you cannot change your sexuality and neither should you try. This is not consigning people who are unhappy with their orientation to be unhappy for their whole lives. Happiness comes from accepting who you are and making choices based on that. People who are unhappy with their orientation are unhappy because of pressure from society. They need to be helped to understand who they are not to falsely deny it. Kids do not become gay, they just are or aren’t. There are no homosexual activists trying to convert children, this is right-wing propoganda based on the assertion that gay people need to recruit because they cannot reproduce. Firstly I (and probably all other gay people) have no interest in increasing the number of gay people in the world as this will remain the same percentage whatever happens, secondly there is no such thing as gay recruitment and thirdly people will be born gay whether the Right like it or not. The information in schools is to help the kids who are gay come to terms with who they are and those who aren’t to understand and appreciate people who are different to them. As for HIV, its a disease, get over it. It happens by sheer chance that unprotected anal sex is the most likely way to contract it, big deal. I’m sure we all agree that anyone engaging in risky behaviour when they know they are infected is out of order but this goes for both straights and gay people. It does not mean that ALL gay people should be castigated for it. Studies show that gay people are more likely to know their HIV status as they are more likely to get tested. This bodes well for the huge numbers of straight people running around having unprotected sex with no thought to their status. And don’t say if only people were celibate until marriage then this wouldn’t happen as we ALL know that is never going to happen. Yes its true that the gay community has become complacent towards HIV, this is mainly down to the lack of awareness and a generation of gay people who were not exposed to the doom-laded advertising of the eighties. Also the Bush administration’s dogged approach to using abstinence programs to combat HIV, yeah, thats a good idea if ever I heard one. (By the way that last sentence was sarcasm)HIV is not a gay disease, its a human one. The sooner that people stop pointing fingers, the sooner we can get on with the education needed to combat it.As for your assertion that we are not behaving as nature intended… If we aren’t, why is homosexuality observed throughout nature? Lions, dogs, bears, penguins, swans, tigers, elephants, primates and many more have all been seen to have homosexual members of their populations. That kind of suggests to me that it is an entirely natural way to be born. Those groups that form lifelong relationships such as elephants and swans have been observed forming lifelong happy homosexual partnerships in exactly the same way as their heterosexual equals.Oh and by the way, before I go. I’m an Astrophysicist and let me tell you, your comment on thermodynamics and the creation of the universe was complete and utter hogwash. In future, try not to use subjects you know nothing about to back up your antiquated ideas there’s a good chap.Dr Phillp.s happy here too!

  92. Hey Dr Phil:Your comments ask a number of questions that I’d love to answer and will, but one at a time, as it would be too lengthy right now.You staste “there are no homoxexual activists trying to convert children. Apparently you’re not familiar with many activities going on the USA;Can you interpret the following in any other way as being a psychological tool to confuse and influence our youngsters about their sexuality during their early maturing years? If you do, then your astrophysicist education has left yoo without insight into propoganda and seeing something that’s a disguised form of brainwashing being passed off educational inquiry.This was passed out in Vermont public schools.SOURCE VERIFIED BUT PROTECTED. CIRCULATED AT MISSAQUOI UHS END OF MAY 2000. PROBABLY BY GAY STUDENT GROUP The Heterosexual Questionaire what do you think caused your Heterosexuality? when and how did you decide that you were heterosexual? is it possible your heterosexuality is just a phase you may/not grow out of? is it possible your heterosexuality stems from a neurotic fear of others of the same sex? if you’ve never slept with a person of the same sex, it is possible that all you need is a good gay/lesbian lover? to whom did you disclose your heterosexual tendencies? how did they react? why do heterosexuals feel compelled to seduce others into that lifestyle?why do you insist on flaunting your heterosexuality? why can’t you just be who you are and keep quiet about it? a disproportionate majority of child molesters are heterosexual. do you consider it safe to expose your child to a heterosexual teacher? with all the societal support marriage receives, divorce rates are spiraling. Why are there so few stable heterosexual relationships? why do heterosexual’s place so much emphasis on sex? considering the menace of over population, how could the human race survive if everyone were a heterosexual? I’ll have more to discuss and argue next time — I have to leave shortlysaint Hank

  93. “I have to leave shortly”Yeah, Hank has a funeral to picket with the debase “Reverent” Phelps.Hank, have you ever been diagoised, or seeking medication for Histrionic Personality Disorder (HPD)?Symptoms: A pervasive and excessive pattern of emotionality and attention-seeking behaviour, which may affect a person’s social or romantic relationships or their ability to cope with losses or failures. Added to this, your displays of inappropriately provocative behaviour, express strong emotions with an grandiose style, and be easily influenced by others. Still, it wouldn’t account for the vincible ignorance or the lack of education you outrageously flaunt on this site as if you were proud of it.(And if you don’t understand any of the big words I’m using, that’s okay, start here:- dictionary.com)Aa trip to a specialist wouldn’t hurt, Hank.Or Suicide. That’ll work equally as well.

  94. Robert, ex-pat Brit 15 Nov 2007, 1:17pm

    Dr. Phill, well said. Actually, its has been documented that there are more than 500 species on this planet that are seen to have a same-sex orientation. Maybe ex-gay shills should try to find out why that occurs too. Its all part of the natural process.Lets ask ex-gay cults to provide documentation and have their methods published in the scientific literature first for evaluation. Maybe some of the legitimate research institutes could replicate their results with controlled experiments and then we would have the proof. So far, none have. I wonder why?

  95. Indeed, Robert, you are quite right in what you say.The American Psychiatric Association issued a critical statement backed by numerous other mainstream medical organizations, which stated: “There is simply no sufficiently scientifically sound evidence that sexual orientation can be changed.” The statement went on to say that positions espoused by ex-gay organizations “are not supported by the science” and that they “create an environment in which prejudice and discrimination can flourish.” [APA - August 11, 2006]And lets not forget John Paulk, the current ex-gay leader who was featured on the cover of Newsweek, was subsequently caught in a gay bar in Washington, DC. Paulk first lied about why he was there, then later admitted that this wasn’t his first visit to a gay bar.Beautiful. Simply beautiful.

  96. Hey William and Robert:Boy you guys are good — at evading the important questions and resorting to inane, ignorant responses when you don’t have an intelligent answerI’m still waiting for a rational response to the former list of homosexual action to confuse and entice young children about their heterosexuality – trying to open their minds to seeing homosexuality is just as normal and to possibly experiment with a partner of the same sex. Your motto is “If you haven’t tried it, don’t knock it.”I have so much more FACTUAL information to send you about the activist homosexuals are desperately trying to inculcate your homosexuality lifestyle as being just as worthy and rewarding as heterosexuality. Forget it — you are living a bogus lifestyle — normal, natural inclinations are part of mankind and only some psychological pathology will change that.PLEASE…PLEASE in the future give me FACTS — not idiotic opinions — back up your statements with bonafide, provable studies that are conducted by reliable experts.Otherwise I’ll really think the two of you are THE VILLAGE IDIOTS.I’ll respond to your comparison of humans and animals and their sex lives. (Maybe you guys should return to your ape-like lives before you became human(?) to justify your preposterous thinking!I can’t believe you’ve made this far in life with your IQ’sBe well, saint Hank

  97. Robert, ex-pat Brit 15 Nov 2007, 1:53pm

    William, thank you, I so agree with you. I’ve inserted a link on what’s going on with Dr. Richard Cohen, an ex-gay freak. Wayne Besen is probably the leading authority on ex-gay cults in the U.S. Read on….

  98. That is quite obviously a leaflet showing the types of questions that gay people get asked all the time. By turning it around and asking the children the same questions from a heterosexual viewpoint it shows how ridiculous they are. I’ve been asked virtually all those questions in the past by straight people who should know better. The fact that you can’t see the educational value of this literature is odd to say the least verging on paranoia.The point of a school education is to inform, enlighten and challenge young people. This type of material seems like a great way to allow children to make up their own opinions about sexuality and orientation. To see how ridiculous the opinions of bigoted members of society are. This is what really causes you issues Hank. You’d rather children were kept in the dark, fed your brand of bigotry and turned into the next generation of bigots just like you. Whilst gay children and young adults endure a childhood of fear and repression. Forced to hide away and try not to be noticed. You fear that given the information and freedom to choose, children will reject the outdated rubbish from you and people like you and will grow up into adults who embrace difference and diversity in society.As more and more gay people come out in all walks of life, kids everywhere are beginning to notice that gay people are not scary disease-ridden paedophillic monsters like some members of society (like you) have told them, hell-bent on converting them. They are realising that they include their friends, neighbours, family members and other people they know. Just normal everyday people going about their normal everyday lives.Material like this will not make a child homosexual, their orientation is part of who they are and cannot be changed or subverted by something as simple as a leaflet. The whole of society is geared up to assume kids are heterosexual, it’s in almost every image, song and television program. They are hardly going to be swayed by a leaflet.This is not propaganda, this is education!The infamous Section 28 in UK law banning the promotion of homosexuality in schools was repealed for this very reason. Because it is now well understood in this country that most gay children know they are gay from an early age and their needs have to be taken into account. We now have anti-gay bullying initiatives being put in place by central government and teaching of sexuality in schools is becoming part of the curriculum as it should be.I grew up in the section 28 era as I’m sure others on this board did and I knew throughout school that I was gay. I envy the kids growing up now, able to be open and honest. Knowing they are protected by laws and their schools rather than vilified by them. Don’t get me wrong there is still a way to go for these kids to be truly safe and equal but we are getting there.I guess we’re just more enlightened than the United States.Dr Phillp.s. I’m going to call you Honk from now on. It seems strangely fitting

  99. Robert, ex-pat Brit 15 Nov 2007, 2:00pm

    William, as far back as 1973, the American Psychiatric Association removed “homosexuality” from its list of mental disorders, something that escapes ex-gay freaks and pretenders. They’re response to that is that the APA was bamboozled by gay activists to get them to remove the definition which is definitely not the case. These jesus freaks are actually trying to persuade the APA to reverse its definition by offering conversion therapy as a viable alternative. They won’t succeed of course because they’ve never submitted any documentation that include controlled scientific experiments. Its the biggest fraud aimed at fleecing confused, troubled gay youth and others to part with their money and turn to their socalled friend in the sky as a way out. They’ve shown no success rates so far. They all revert back to who they are, gay men and women. They actually believe that if they refrain from physical contact with the same sex, they are straight. How pathetic can it get?

  100. Wow, Robert, that REALLY set him off. We give it proof, it refuses to listen and respond. When it doesn’t agree with the proof, it goes off on a hissy fit.Impressive little rant, wasn’t it?Pill time Hank.Oh, any joy on the suicide suggestion?

  101. “I can’t believe you’ve made this far in life with your IQ’s”My IQ is certified at 151. I hold two degrees, a Bachelors in Science and a Bachelors in Electronic Engineering. I also have third level qualifications in Telecommunications, Physics, and A.I.I’m pretty sure its runs circles around a backward little fool like you who’s education consists of a bible and multiple beatings clearly resulting in acute head trauma.So, again. How’s the suicide going? Seriously, people like you are a severe threat to humanity. God forbid you breed and then you could damage the gene pool with your inferior intelligence. You’re just wasting valuable resources living, you really shouldn’t be so selfish.ADMIT IT! Or maybe, YOU CAN’T HANDLE THE TRUTH!…ha ha ha.

  102. Robert, ex-pat Brit 15 Nov 2007, 5:37pm

    William, yes, it was meant to. It goes to show how very desperate and sick these people are that they have nothing else better to do than troll gay websites to get off by ranting and raving about the rapture they’re so caught up in. He thinks you and I have low IQs and haven’t come far in life. I think we’ve done pretty well, don’t you? I’m happy, love who I am and wouldn’t want to change a thing. The problem with him is that he’s not come very far at all, he’s still in his self-imposed closet, like the rest of the neanderthals he surrounds himself with. He’s GAY and he knows it, but a very bitter, jealous one. He’s been paid by some ex-gay sect/cult, they do that a lot in the U.S. and it looks like they have their designs on the UK now. They’re not getting anywhere either. If he were straight, he wouldn’t be coming here in the first place. He needs to get out more, get a life and get real, find himself a hot hunky number to give him what for. I doubt if he’s ever got it on with a female either, would probably need viagra to get it up to prove he’s a man let alone a straight one. What a waste of life, spending his time feeling so rejected, lonely, unloved, unhappy, waiting for the rapture to take him to his imaginary friend in the sky. Very sad!

  103. Robert, ex-pat Brit 15 Nov 2007, 5:39pm

    William, did you get to check out the link I sent you regarding that other ex-gay fraud, Richard Cohen? Check it out if you haven’t. It will give you an even better understanding of what we’re dealing with. Bunch of sickos.

  104. William, Robert Dr. Phil:Wow…gay…gay…ex-gay…ex-gay…is that your mantra you begin chanting…in your Lotus-position before you sign in on your website preparing to do warfare with people opposing homosexuality?Your comment:This is what really causes you issues Hank. You’d rather children were kept in the dark, fed your brand of bigotry and turned into the next generation of bigots just like you. Whilst gay children and young adults endure a childhood of fear and repression. Forced to hide away and try not to be noticed. My comment:No…I want children to know what they face if they experiment with sex — either heterosex or homosexuality…AIDS can be the resultant outcome. Children have no business getting involved with any type of sexual intercourse until they’re old enough to fully understand any possible consequences.But society has detteriorated to using sex to sell everything from food, cars, trips — a huge amount of their advertising tries to introduce sex as what makes it pleasureable, satisfying, etc. And homosecuality has joined forces using all the media to first desensitize the public, make homosexuals seem to be in need of protection, start using more acceptable terms — alternative lifestyle, etc, creating tv programs where the main character is homosexual and is funny, witty, everybody likes him…etc. And then much of the gullible audience enjoys. Also in any serious show, the herersexual character is shown as not having compassion, understanding, etc. while the homosexual seems to be getting the worse end of the deal. Oh yeah…you guys arent’ dumb…You’re using all the social, legal, psychological tools to make your point and much of the public mght be buying into it. Much of the public is like lemmings heading toward the cliff’s end. But remember, homosexuals comprise 1-2% of the population and eventually the majority will wake up and “call your bluff.” It’s just a matter of time. I’m not worried.By the way,what do you offer people who don’t like their homosexual lifestyle and want to change? You say, “once gay, always gay.” what an evil and sorry alternative you offer them. And don’t tell me there are no homoxexuals that are unhappy being that way and want to change. Please don’t be that narrow-minded! Homosexuality in not such a perfect style of living that EVERYONE IS HAPPY WITH IT. And don’t try to blame their unhappiness on society who doesn’t understand them, and causes them to have guilt, loneliness, etc. Human behavior is more complex than laying the blame on society, religion, or some other outside factor. (I’ll comment on this later.)A huge number of homeless boys on the streets have turned to committing prostitution with male adult perverts — so what came first their homelessness or their homosexuality for these youngsters? Put in the wrong situations, these kids have become homosexuals because of necessity, not because they were born that way. If you can’t see that you are totally biased in understanding sexual development and behavior. What is your basis for constructing a foundation of morality in humans? Where did you get your principles for right and wrong…about good and evil actions?I’ve got other issues to deal with and you’ll hear from me soon. I’d appreciate a rational answer to my questions.Be wellsaint Hank

  105. All you evolutionists:I believe the Holy Bible’s version of the creation of Adam and Eve.Since you don’t, please give me a detailed, rational explanation of your version of life’s original creation and the later creation of man. Don’t leave out too many details because it’s not a simple process and took 4,5 billions of years as you believe. Give me the major steps and the time spans as you see it.My version took 7 days. and I’ll have some good quesions for you later on it all.saint Hank

  106. Hey Phil:YOUR COMMENT:You fear that given the information and freedom to choose, children will reject the outdated rubbish from you and people like you and will grow up into adults who embrace difference and diversity in society.MY COMMENT:Very young children are very impressionable for a number of years in their early growth. When you have a homosexual teacher telling them homosexual lifestyle is simply a genuine alternative that any or every human being should think about and have tolerance for — you are confusing such an infantile mind and you can alter it — you’ve heard of brain-washing — it works whether you’re using it warfare or the educational system.In Jan. 2004, the Morgan Hill, CAshool districts were forced to impose pro-homosexual sensitivity training with all school officials.Beginning in the 2004-05 school year, the school is also forced to indoctrinate all 9th graders to develop positive attitudes about homosexuality.More recently, homosexual activists have started pushing the idea that genital deformaties found in hermaphrodite newborns are actually evidence of a THIRD SEX, not a birth defect.And you’re trying to tell me you’re not trying to influence the youngsters…PLEASE.And a THIRD SEX….PLEASE.You are being disingenuous in your appraisal of the activist homosexual agenda. Please read up on what they are attempting…and doing to attract the young into believing the homosexual lifestyle is legitmate.Be well,saint Hank

  107. “Wow…gay…gay…ex-gay…ex-gay…is that your mantra you begin chanting..”Er, no, all I said was I am smarter, better educated, and a superior person to you in every way.So, the suicide? Come one, every day you procrastinate, you are exhausting perfectly good oxygen…

  108. Hi Robert, yes I did have a look, very interesting if not surprising. What was most disturbing that even that perverse organisation Exodus International, thinks this man is a nut…. when you have nuts accusing other nuts of mental imbalance, you have a problem.As I said, the more folks like retarded Hank there are our there, the more they push moderate people to support our cause.

  109. “I’d appreciate a rational answer to my questions.”Yeah, well when you behave like a rational man, you’ll get a rational response.Up to now, you have demonstrated very little of anything but a chemical imbalance in your inferior brain… 7 days to make the world, indeed.Buffoon. You know, Jesus hates you.

  110. Hey Willie:YOUR COMMENT:Er, no, all I said was I am smarter, better educated, and a superior person to you in every way.MY COMMENT:Sure….that’s what all the crazy people in an institution keep muttering all day long. When did you get out?Now I can understand why you don’t respond to my rational comments.Tell me about the homeless homosexual boys. Did homlessness make them homosexuals or were they homosexuals looking to be homeless so they could fulfil their sorry behavior.They probably became homosexuals because of two major factors:They had a poor family(male-female) relationship which could have given them a distored view about themselves which could cause a warped view of their sexual worth — a poor self-image can make a person do abnormal things they would never do if they had positive input from parents, family and friends.Society(the homeless atmosphere) drove them to perform homosexual acts — maybe on perverted homosexual males. If so, then social influence created their homosexual behavior.Either way, in this case, there were probably at least 2 influences that created his homosexual behavior, and nobody can say there was a biological influence at this point.I keep saying there are many influences that go into sexual behavior — it’s not purely biological. If you can’t accept that as a rational argument, then you truly are the VILLAGE IDIOT! Are you? Bailey -Pillard studied homosexuality in twins but ended up with significant problems that made the results inconclusive. Other studies took up similar research and came to ask: Why are not nearly all identical twin brothers of homosexuals also homosexuals? In other words if biology is determinative, why are nearly half of the identical twins NOT homosexual? Bailey admitted that “there must be something in the environment to yield the discordant twins.” And that is precisely the point: There is something (perhaps a vast multitude of things) in the environment to explain sexual orientation.OK William, that sounds like a rational study to warrant a ratioinal reply.By the way, Bailey is a homosexual and has been an outspoken proponent of a pro-gay agenda in science..If you want, I can give other studies carried out by researchers on the “gay gene” study.OK Willie, the ball is in your court –let’s see what you do with it.Jesus does love me — besides how would you know anything about Jesus.saint Hank

  111. Hank, I told you, I will not debate science with an inferior mind.Jesus does hate you. Its obvious he does. Why else would he give you such a diminished mental capacity? OH CRUEL WORLD!Now, all I want to discuss with you is your suicide. Its essential you understand that you are wasting earth’s resources by living and its time to stop.

  112. I’m sorry Hank, I do hate you.This is the word of God.Amen.

  113. Hey WilliePlease give me your enlightened view on the question of the homeless/homosexual relationship.If I’m totally wrong, please correct me.It’s not a hypothetical situation — it’s a real situation that involves thousands of young boys. Why won’t you “set me straight” (oops…can I use that word?) with my erroneous conclusion. I would appreciate seeing my stupidity.Thanks WillieBe Wellsaint Hank

  114. Hey Mary….what’s happening?I’m very disappointed in you. I’ve asked you to enlighten me about your god and your religion — give in some insight into your worldview. I truly would like to know what governs your behavior, your thinking, etc.Since you know where I stand, whether you like it or not, let me know where you stand — it’s only fair.I have a good idea about you and your “god” but I’d like to hear from you.Be well,saint Hank

  115. I’m sorry Hank, I do hate you.This is the word of God.Amen.Jesus | 11.15.07 – 10:43 pm | # PLEASE ADDRESS ME AS “SAINT” HANK IN THE FUTURE…Thank you,saint Hank

  116. Hey WillieSince you’re the genius on this board how is it you didn’t answer my question about your evolutionary view on the creation of life and the creation of man. I would like to know your version as to how you come to be.Is everybody afraid to take on the evolution/creation debate. You know where I stand on creation. I’d like to know where you stand on evolution. It’s a legitimate request — or are you embarrased that your origin came from a few amino acids floating in a swamp of slime that was zapped by lightening and — there was the start of the strands of life that finally evolved into WILLIE –darn if it didn’t, because here you are!Come on lighten up — amuse me!saint Hank

  117. Hey Phil:Regarding the homoxexual’s giving the questionnaire to herterosexuals. YOUR COMMENT: That is quite obviously a leaflet showing the types of questions that gay people get asked all the time. By turning it around and asking the children the same questions from a heterosexual viewpoint it shows how ridiculous they are. I’ve been asked virtually all those questions in the past by straight people who should know better. The fact that you can’t see the educational value of this literature is odd to say the least verging on paranoia.MY COMMENT;Can I see a copy of the questionnaire that heterosexuals posed to homosexuals?I like to have facts presented to me just as I’ve presented facts to you.Thanks for obliging.Be well,saint Hank

  118. Hank you are a moron. No one here is going to enter into a rational debate with you because A: you are not rational and B: you don’t know how to debate. A debate is about people expressing, and listening to, differing view points. All you do with a view point that differs to your own is insist its not true. Stick to your boxed in reality and we will stay here comfortably in the real world.Go away.PS: I hope your morals curl your toes reading this as I’m a pagan, a submissive, bisexual, happily accept there is a third gender and have no problem with polyamourous (sp?) relationships.

  119. “Since you’re the genius on this board how is it you didn’t answer my question about your evolutionary view on the creation of life and the creation of man.”Quite simple really, its becasue you wouldn’t understand. You’re stupid.

  120. Blessed are they that have been persecuted for righteousness’ sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.That’s not you Hank. I hate you.This is the word of the Lord.Amen.

  121. WOW! Jesus himself is on our little gay site!Now Hank, listen up to Jesus…. or you’ll make him cry with your bad spelling, poor grammar and sickingly appalling grasp of the rudimentary basics of science.

  122. Ah bless, I wonder if Hank came up with those arguments all on his own. Lets face it, he’s obviously having trouble grasping simple concepts. I am quite enjoying his rants but I do feel like I’m baiting a 7-year old. In fact, my seven year old niece understands evolution and recognises that creationism is rubbish, unfortunately she believes in God too. She’ll soon grow out of that though like the tooth fairy and Santa Claus. I’ve given her the God Delusion by Richard Dawkins for Christmas Great bedtime reading.

  123. Robert, ex-pat Brit 16 Nov 2007, 1:34pm

    William, here’s another interesting article on yet another ex-gay crank who I’m sure Hank knows or is aware of. They all have the same mantras, obviously scripted so they can go to gay websites armed, not that they ever get anywhere with us.

  124. Well, Phil, at least Santa Clause and the Tooth Fairy have benefit… they give you money and presents just for believing in them. That’s a great deal! Not that like crummy old Jesus… you get nothing off him, except, if Hank is anything to go by, a severe drop in your mental abilities and your sanity. Well, you DO get to eat his body and drink his blood… yeuch! I’ll take a cosmopolitan and an hors d’œuvre over THAT any day!

  125. Hi Robert, thanks for the link. Quite a nut, this chappie, isn’t he? So he thinks he’s some “Religious Right’s Rambo”?!? Oh, dear. Delusions of grandeur with a good helping of bad anger management.So Hank, how do you explain Mr. Besen, then? Bet you fancy him…

  126. Just been reading with incredulity the comments by hank. Why is anybody even bothering to respond to him? Best thing to do with people like him is ignore them. I wish there was a way of banning people like him from sites like this – but then we creep into the whole bad bad area of censorship.

  127. Robert, ex-pat Brit 16 Nov 2007, 2:55pm

    William, yes, Phelan is more than a nut. Unfortunately, there is fertile breeding ground for those right wing nutters here in the States. Most are right wing conservatives (republicans) who have hijacked the political system and religion under Bush and were very influential in having 27 states pass a ban on marriage equality. But now, they’re losing their hold since many in the republican party are distancing themselves from them. They’re finding it much harder now to find wedge issues such as marriage equality and other issues affecting the LGBT community as they did over the past seven years. They’re all a bunch of corrupt, greedy, psychotic people who prey on gay youth and suck them into their money making industry, then dump them once their pray away the gay therapy fires back on them, even though they’ve fleeced them of their money. Seems like they’re branching out overseas. Just remember, they’re all frauds. As for Wayne Besen, he’s wonderful. I met him once a couple of years ago. He’s far more handsome in person than you see on t.v. but a brilliant opponent and activist in exposing the fraud and quackery of ex-gay cults. Several prominent ex-gay therapists have been barred from practising as a result of Wayne’s tireless efforts to expose them for who they are. We could do with him in the UK.

  128. Robert, ex-pat Brit 16 Nov 2007, 5:29pm

    William, check out this other website regarding ex-gay cults. Warren Throckmorton believes that we’re not really gay. Yet another nutter in the ilk of Phelan, Nicolosi, Cohen, La Barbera and others. They are not only deluded people peddling a fraudulent message but are dangerous at best. These are the people who’ve produced the Hanks of this world.

  129. Robert, I have to say, it never ceases to astound me why so many people, supposedly “straight” people, have such an obsession with gays and our sex lives. I’d love one of them to answer that, it has to be more then religion or dumb hate, there must be some deep seeded pathological insecurity or self loathing going on there. Maybe if they got our there and had a good f**k themselves, they wouldn’t so up tight and obsessed with other people’s sex lives!

  130. Hey gang:Thanks for the Wayne Bensen info — his website is interesting and I’ll be reading it regularly. Anytime you have other such sites, let me know I like to have both sides of controversy and learn something all the time.About those ex-gay sites you mentioned that are rip-offs. I have heard some negative things about ex-gay programs. Never talked with anyone in person as to its effectiveness. The only perfect solution is found in Jesus’ teachings and that’s what I need for perfect answers. The Holy Bible has it all for everybody — so don’t think I’m an ex-gay website advocate — those might be secondary outlets for somebody’s answers — I go to the number one answer outlet — Jesus Christ. I realize that most gays who don’t like their lifestyle and try ex-gay programs are not Christians, so they’ve got 2 strikes again their being successful. Third strike probably takes place quickly and they’re worse off than before — I feel bad for them because if they truly want to change, they need to look to Jesus Christ — not simply a human being.Also I’ll check my library for “God Delusion” by Dawkins — see what he has to say.But just like you, I’m not going to change my basic belief — sin is sin, no matter what category it falls under.Be talking with you again soon– have somethings to “discuss” with you even if Willie doesn’t wantto discuss anything with me.saint Hank

  131. Robert, ex-pat Brit 16 Nov 2007, 7:46pm

    William, you’re observations are right on the mark. Its ALWAYS right wing fundamentalist religious bigots and ex-gays who obsess about our sexual orientation. The average, well-adjusted straight male would NEVER be bothered by any of it if he is truly comfortable with his own orientation. This obsession is virtually a neurosis and often quite revealing. I bet you anything, put all of them under hypnosis, you’d find a lot of deeply closeted skeletons coming out of their closets. Yes, it is about self-loathing and I also think a little bit of envy too. There is no other group that is obsessed with our sexuality, none. I doubt if any of them have a very enjoyable sex life either, if any.I hope Pink News has the power to ban these lunatics from this site. They contribute nothing but hate and are usually paid shills from ex-gay cults/sects to hopefully shut sites down or wear us out by their venomous, negative, absurd comments about us. They’re not christians at all, but cult followers, mostly all from the U.S. unfortunately.They say the ones who protest too much have much to hide. [They] are evidence of that.

  132. Robert, ex-pat Brit 16 Nov 2007, 7:49pm

    Hank better be careful when visiting Wayne Besen’s website. Wayne will block him if he starts the usual crap. He’ll meet more than his match. Wayne is brilliant, one of my heroes and a thoroughly decent chap, oh and a cutie!

  133. PEOPLE…PEOPLE…Listen Up!Phil, Robert, Willie, Mary, Jeff,and …Leilah(welcome to you)It’s time to use an excoriating manner with you all…nothing else seems to get through to you.Let’s use this website as it might be a classroom.All of you get a failing F- grade.What…you begin screeming…why?Here’s why:My comments heretofore…………1. How do explain/rationalize the homeless/homosexual action of young boys. See earlier details of my reasoning.2. Where is your explanation of evolution’s beginning of life and the life of man? Still believe amino acids, a primordial slime and a lightening strike started it all?3. What’s your worldview, your god and your religion (an explantion would suffice)4. The Bailey-Rillar homosexual twin fiasco, discredited by a later study showing only 50% homosexual, 50% heterosexual resultant outcome — where’s the biological ingredient that should have made both homosexual — it’s missing without explantion.5. A “discovery” of a THIRD SEX (this is really stretching credulity).Your responses: to each and everyone of my questions:”I hate you”…”you’re stupid,”…”you are a moron”…”hope your morals curl your toes”…”you have trouble grasping simple concepts”…”about Jesus…you’ll make him cry because of your spelling, grammar…etc”So after examining your “intelligent” responses to my questions, I can only come to the conclusion that I’m dealing with a group of retards who cannot comprehend what a question or an issue requires in a response.I repeat…each of you gets a grade of F- and fail the course of normal intelligence…you have to return to grade school and start over and study harder and learn how to respond to logical questions. Phil..or Jeff…my question directed to you received an aditional poor grade. I asked you a generalized question, you criticized me about minutiae points…shame on you.I really hope your Wayne Besen has more intellictual maturity to answer questions as I really would like to have mature discussion with someone who’s not afraid to answer me with logical points of argument.Talk with you later.Be well,saint Hank

  134. Hey Willia:YOUR COMMENT Robert, I have to say, it never ceases to astound me why so many people, supposedly “straight” people, have such an obsession with gays and our sex lives. I’d love one of them to answer that, it has to be more then religion or dumb hate, there must be some deep seeded pathological insecurity or self loathing going on there. MY COMMENT:My reason for looking at sexual activity, including homosexuality, is both philosophical and cultural. In the last few decades society has shifted from a Judeo-Christian foundation to a secular one. The first is the entertainment media (tv, movies, rock music, MTV).The second is the area of sex educatino (sex education classes, school-based clinics, etc) These two forces have transformed the social landscape of America and made sexual activity the motivating force for many people — people who are ignorant of consequences — AIDS, unwanted pregnancy, illegitimate births, STDs, — all these can have devistating results that can change a person’s life forever. Sexual behavior — prostitution, adultery, homosexuality, etc is tied in so greatly with mankind that it’s a challenging area for study. Do you deny my right to study any or all these areas?I’m also interested in capital punishment… divorce… drug abuse… family breakdown …gambling…and a number of other moral dilemmas we face.So all you paranoid people out there, you’re simply a topic of study to me, and to enlighten you with the reality of Jesus Christ for solving your condition.Be well,saint Hank

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